Two points in it with two to go: It’s Ferrari vs McLaren… for third place

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McLaren and Ferrari have rarely featured at the front this year

It’s the two titans of the sport: Ferrari and McLaren, who between them have won 374 Grands Prix and 24 constructors’ championships.

But not this year. The 2009 constructors’ championship trophy is not destined for Maranello or Woking. The two teams are fighting as hard as ever – but this time it’s for third place.

Although both are clearly having poor years by their lofty standards, the two are have had very different kinds of downfalls.

Ferrari have been generally off the pace, though not drastically so, wherever they’ve been. For McLaren in the first half of the season, aerodynamically critical tracks like Silverstone were a disaster area.

Lewis Hamilton has has brought a mixture of inspiration and desperation to the situation. He ran away with the wins at Hungary and Singapore, and wrung everything there was to get out of the MP4/24 at Suzuka – still the kind of track the car is weak at.

But the same never-say-die attitude cost him a podium finish on the final lap at Monza – and the less said about Melbourne the better.

For Ferrari the season has been more even – with, of course, the notable exception of the disaster that befell Felipe Massa. Happily, as his test yesterday proved, he is well on the way to recovery.

The upshot of this has been the number three F60 hasn’t brought home a point since the Nurburgring. Without Massa’s injury, Ferrari would probably be home and dry in third place already.

Kimi Raikkonen has done a commendable job, racking up a string of podiums in Massa’s absence to single-handedly keep the team in the hunt.

The constructors’ championship may not command the same kind of attention the drivers’ title does, but there is pride at stake here, it’s the fight to be top KERS team, and there’s a considerable difference in prize money. So, which team will prevail?

Ferrari may be ahead but McLaren seem to have form on their side. This weekend’s race should suit their car well and Abu Dhabi looks like it could be much the same.

For Ferrari it is imperative that Giancarlo Fisichella is able to start picking up points as well as Raikkonen. But unless something goes wrong at McLaren it could be too little too late.

Toyota could pip both to third place. But as the Japanese team now faces an injury dilemma of its own and has had to put rookie Kamui Kobayashi in Timo Glock’s car, making their chances that bit slimmer.

Which team do you think will finish ahead? Or is third place in the constructors’ championship just too low to care about?

Constructors' championship third place battle

Author information

Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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115 comments on “Two points in it with two to go: It’s Ferrari vs McLaren… for third place”

  1. Paige Michael-Shetley
    13th October 2009, 7:27

    Ferrari are like a time trial specialist leading in the early stages of the Tour de France just before the mountain stages start. Their best is behind them, and their demise is only a chronological matter.

    McLaren clearly have the better car right now, and they’re coming on two circuits that seem to suit the car perfectly.

    1. Yes! Mclaren clearly have the faster car & I also see them have the best car for next year. Ferrari have committed the most henious blunder by stopping development mid-way. They’ll have to face the repercussions next year, when they will play catch up against mclaren. Especially with the loss of brilliant brains,restricted testing & two hot headed Latinos, Ferrari are in for a long season next year.

      All the best to their beloved Tifosi :P

      1. just hope they save ur insightful predictions mp4 am assuming they were the same last year and will resurface every year therafter..

        1. Unfortunately I have to agree with both of you that McLaren has the better car at this point, but you have to remember that the cars are not on auto pilot; and Kimi is light years a better driver than your Lewis guy.
          I’m hoping that the driver will play a bigger role than the car in these last 2 races and then my Kimi will definitely prevail over your Lewis boy. Yes, it may be partly wishful thinking.
          I also agree that Ferrari in 2010 will suffer the effects of ALL their f*** ups of this year, namely, early end to development of the F60, 2010 drivers blunder (both the ones they got for 2010), etc, etc. The only one I feel sorry for is poor Giancarlo, but at least he has fulfilled a lifetime dream.

          1. Paige Michael-Shetley
            14th October 2009, 8:35

            Kimi is “light years” better than Hamilton? I’m sorry, but I think this is a tremendous stretch.

            You can certainly argue that he’s a better driver, and that’s very much a legitimate argument. But it’s pretty illegitimate to argue that he’s “light years” better.

      2. The point of Ferrari stopping development on this years car is to focus energy and resources on next years car, it’s not a blunder. For example Brawn successfully sacrificed the development of the ’08 (Honda) car to focus on their challenger for ’09.

        Also I wouldn’t describe Massa as being especially hot headed, I think your just playing to a racial stereotype.

        1. But in case of Brawn/Honda the rules changes from 2008 to 2009 meant that the design 7 manufacture of the new car would be radically different. the rule changes were “revolutionary”. But the 2010 cars are going to be an “evolution” of the 2009 cars. So developing the 2009 cars would have paid dividends for Ferrari. We have seen as demonstrated by mclaren & force india to an extent, that methodical, step-by-step method is the only way to make a car competitive. Long gone are the days of Colin Chapman & Gordon Murray, who would produce an overnight winning formula. Modern day F1 teams can only be sucessful if they stick on to continuous development plan. And I think Ferrari have missed a trick here. Anyway we’ll know their fate this winter.

          And Ferrari fans can cast away this idea that Alonso is worth 0.6sec & stuff. Its rubbish.

          1. Considering the way in which Ferrari designed and developed their title winning cars ’00-’05 don’t you think they already know that “trick”. I think your assuming too much about Ferrari, their current car and their plans for next year. Given the holistic nature of F1 car design I imagine it makes perfect sense. I’m not saying there approach will or won’t work I just trust that they know which path best suits their situation as I trust the same with McLaren.

            Just an observation but you seem to have real bee up your ar$e about Alonso. I’m no particular fan of his but I can see he is a good driver, I’d consider him one of the top two or three (at the moment) in F1 including Hamilton, I don’t think there ever is an absolute number one.

        2. It is a definite blunder to stop development on their 2009 car. The 2010 spec car and 2009 spec car are so similar that the teams still working on their 2009 car will have to throw very little of their development work out. Further a lot of very valuable data can be gained through continuing to work on this years car. With the testing limits in place, wind tunnel usage limits, etc. in Formula 1 today, a team has to be mad not to take advantage of these final practice sessions and races to develop the car so that its ready to be competitive at the start of 2010. While Ferrari is still trying to work out the bugs on all of its new bits that would have been legal this year, its competitors will have already done that and can focus on improving their cars beyond that point. I think this inaction will come back to haunt Ferrari throughout 2010. Ferrari has the resources and know how to ultimately catch up, but due to the testing restrictions it will take them much longer to do so than it did in the 2000-2005 period you mentioned.

      3. I dont understand why you feel Ferrari have done a blunder by stopping development of the current car. To me it only shows their confidence on what they can deliver from what they have learnt.
        Probably you are the kind who keeps studying for the exams until the bell rings out to end the study period.

        Having been in the sport for more than half a decade, they sure know what to do when.

  2. Eric Westcott
    13th October 2009, 7:47

    I think the smart money is on Mclaren at the moment. Since they did away with the cut floor and developed their diffuser they have been pretty competitive. The car should do well at Interlagos seeing as it rode the bumps in Singapore so well. Lewis and Kimi are both racing well at the moment however I can’t help but feel this may be decided by the second drivers. I think the Kovalainen is a better chance to score some points. Judging by his past performances I doubt that Fisichella has the ability to score points he still seems to be struggling to get to grips with the F60 and getting through to Q2 in qualifying.

    1. Kovi will be doing himself a great favour if he can manage to finish in the points. Or else this would be the second year in a row when mclaren would have ceded their advantage to Ferrari due to Kovi’s lacklusture =. but practically speaking, I don’t see either Kovi or Fisi finishing in the points. So it’ll all be down to the premium guys. Battle between mclaren technical advantage and Kimi’s talent.

      I still think Kimi’s easily the better driver, but that mp4-24 is a shade better than that F60.

      1. Paige Michael-Shetley
        14th October 2009, 8:39

        I don’t think Kimi is at all “easily the better driver.” The better driver? Possibly, yes. But in my view, Lewis and Kimi are right there neck-and-neck.

  3. Great article, Keith

    You didn´t mention the drivers input on the battle, but I read two article suggesting that Ferrari have a slightly better car — more adaptable to all kinds of tracks — but what is making the difference is Lewis Hamilton:

    […] The McLaren tends to be competitive only on slow corners and if there are enough of them to allow it to get on to the straights faster than the others, then it can be competitive. It also has a driver of genius who can make up some of the car’s deficiencies.

    Although Lewis Hamilton qualified second and finished third on the fast sweeps of Suzuka at the Japanese Grand Prix, his was actually only the sixth quickest car in the race. Essentially, he was where he was because he had out-performed the car in qualifying.
    So we have a picture of the Toyota being intrinsically the fastest car of the three but maybe a little sensitive, the Ferrari and McLaren lagging some way behind in ultimate performance potential but in that order, but with Hamilton making a bigger difference than the other drivers. […]

    — Mark Hughes

    Tony Dodgins, coincidently, have he same opinion:

    It was a great effort by Lewis. As he said, S1 did not really play to the McLaren’s strengths – it was much quicker in the tighter S2 – and yet when it mattered, in qualifying, only four cars were quicker in S1 than Lewis. When you’re the reigning world champion and have already won 11 times, you might not get too excited about qualifying third and finishing there, but as is often the case, the great drives aren’t always the obvious ones. I reckon Lewis was right at the top of his game in Japan and you’ve got to feel sympathy for Heikki Kovalainen. It’s hard to prove your worth when Hamilton is the yardstick.

    1. Interesting statistics there.
      And there are people who still say that Hamilton is not as good as certain other drivers (the Spanish one, for instance) at wringing the best out of an under-performing or badly set-up car.

      Whilst Kimi is quick at Interlagos, I expect McLaren to take the 3rd place. The McLaren should be great around the tight infield section, get a good exit from Juncao and then light the Kers all the way up the hill.

      1. (the Spanish one, for instance)

        Superb comment!!

        The Spanish one is bad and over-rated. He’ll sink the prancing horce & wriggle himself out. Oh! Yeah, not only is he worth 25m$$+ Kimi+mutua madrilina+Santander, but also worth 0.6 sec! LOL!! What a joke :P

        Spanish driver-cum-engineer! I wonder if he went to some aeronautics college in spain, cuz “some” people think he better than most at “car” development.


        That is the key number! :P

        1. Jeez, change the record…

        2. MP4-19B, you are the worst thing about F1Fanatic…

          1. I know that truth is a bitter pill to swallow, especially for Teflonso fans.

            Sad but true :P

          2. I’m with the Chimp, and I’m a diehard Lewis & McLaren fan.

            This isn’t the post for slagging off Alonso. Start another forum thread or something.

          3. @ Sputnik

            This has nothing to do with Lewis or Mclaren. Its just presentation of HARD COLD TRUE FACTS

            When Teflonso went to macca, ill-informed fans from a particular nation were bragging Teflonso’s worth 0.6sec or something.

            The mp4-24 was 2.5 sec off Brawn in Melbourne. by europe they had clawed back almost 2 sec & at singapore they were clearly 0.2sec faster than Brawn.

            My only question is why do Teflonso fans fail to acknowledge the fact the lewis is as good at developing the car, if not better?

            Going by stats, Teflonso’s only worth 0.6 sec.

            Lewis is almost worth 2.0sec!! :P :P

            Is that a fair argument??

            Definitely NO!!!

            But ill informed Teflonso fans never get it!! Do they??

          4. Gotta say I’m with Chimp and the others – it’s absolutely insufferable, mp4-19b. Saying what you think is one thing, but bombarding every comment thread possible…. it’s just plain annnoying. And a little sad. Give everyone a break already, will ya? A while ago we had a pretty heart-felt opinion in one of the threads about the downward trend of the discussion at f1fanatic – you’re certainly not doing your part to turn that around.

        3. Why are you so aggressive towards Alonso?

          I’m a fan of both Hamilton and Alonso (and Raikkonen too). More so of Hamilton, but still, I have often enjoyed Alonso’s driving too.

          Hamilton (as a rookie) beat Alonso when they were both at McLaren, so the pecking order seems clear to me.

          What do you care if other people aren’t sane enough to understand this?

          1. Hamilton (as a rookie) beat Alonso when they were both at McLaren, so the pecking order seems clear to me.

            Do you really think teflonso fans accept this fact?

          2. I understand where mp4-19b is coming from and I agree with him/her. I don’t like it when a number of forum members pick on one person because they feel passionately about something that they disagree with.

            I think mp4-19b is just sick, as I am, of Alonso being quoted as the best driver in F1 all the time, when he was beaten by a ROOKIE in 2007. And no, the team weren’t all behind Hamilton so please don’t drag that spurious argument into it.

          3. As much as it pains me to agree with mp4, he is right on several points.
            He is passionate about mclaren and it can get tiresome, but no worse than all of the others slobbering over alonso.
            There seems to be only a few people that recognize that hamilton is equal if not better than alonso on almost every aspect of driving. and he proved it his rookie year.
            I am dissapointed that hamilton is resistant to mclaren brining kimi back, but understand it.
            I have said it in other topics that I believe as does mp4 that ferrari is in for a bad time with alonso.
            next year, will be a good year for mclaren if they keep mercedes power, as I believe that changing to bmw will be a big mistake. they have shown they can develope the car even without testing(if the fia thinks that it is reducing cost that way they are sadly mistaken) and the car will be very competitive. I am not as sure about ferrari. The real question is will Brawn and red bull be at the top next year or was this a major rule change year where everyone tried new things and brawn just got it right better first. Williams is the team that is the real question mark as they may come out with a newidea that really gets them back to the top. If that happens it will really upset the apple cart.

    2. Yes, Becken, I saw the Mark Hughes article, but not the Tony Dodgins one. It’s great that top motorsport journalists can see how great Lewis is, even if some of the less expert F1 fans are always criticising him on and off the track.

      Thanks for the post.!

      1. You mean British motorsport journalists who are always so unbiased in their opinions of British drivers, yeah it’s great to see them telling the world how great a British driver is.

        1. You mean British motorsport journalists who are always so unbiased in their opinions of British drivers, yeah it’s great to see them telling the world how great a British driver is.

          I´m from Brazil and I can read in Portuguese Spanish and Italian. So, I can assure you that the real F1 British press — and not the tabloids — is the best in this business.

          Ask to Martin Burndle, Tony Dodgins or James Allen who is the best driver in the field and I´m sure that they will no answer “Lewis Hamilton” to you…

          1. Paige Michael-Shetley
            14th October 2009, 8:49

            I know Allen and Brundle have both said they think Alonso is the best.

            The British press actually seem to slag off their drivers on occasion. They’ve been brutal to Button since Silverstone. They’ve given Hamilton his fair share of hard times, as well. They were really vicious, and very undeservedly so, to Damon Hill, who is the most criminally underrated driver in F1 history.

  4. Sorry to lower the tone but …..c’mon Ferrari!!!:P
    Mclaren will be hard to beat with their car which has turned out pretty strong and Ferrari have the freeze. Both cars also seem to really only have one driver, hopefully Fisi can start scoring soon.

    1. Its

      Kimi’s talent versus mp4-24

      1. Kimi says he wants a podium and I have full belief in him

      2. u mean to say if anyone other driver drives MP4-24, he ll be able to beat(compete) with Kimi. Be rational and dont be sick.

        1. You Indians never get it, do you? Never get “English” puns. No wonder DC was infuriated.
          All that I was trying to say was that the mp4-24 is, at the moment better than the F60. So it will take something special from Kimi to beat them. Why the hell do you want to drag Lewis into it? I never said anything bout him!!

          Funniest part was an Indian telling off be rational :P LOL :P

          But your confused brain seems to interpret things in strange ways :D

          1. @Keith
            How can you allow a racial comment like this?

  5. I think Mclaren will be second

    1. Provided Brawn or Red Bull are disqualified from the constructors championship.

      Stranger things have happened in F1, So….

      1. mp4-19b

        For the 1st time since I found this site, about mid-point this year, I agree with most of your comments. Exception is your liking of Lewis who I really don’t like. And so I make myself very clear, I dislike him since Canada when he crashed Kimi and cost him the Canada win and the 2008 driver’s championship.

        Other than that, today you are OK with your comments, 95% of them

        1. Exception is your liking of Lewis

          I’ve never been a great Lewis fan myself. But you’ve gotta acknowledge the fact that this guys has loads of talent.

          But I still feel that Kimi is slightly better than him. The only way to put an end to that debate is to pit them together next year at mclaren.

          1. There you go again with my 95% rule.

            Kimi is slightly better than him

            Kimi is light years better than Lewis.
            If Kimi does end up in Mclaren next year, the curse of not being able to fully support 1 team will continue for me. I was always a McLaren fun until Kimi left for Ferrari. I supported Kimi @ Ferrari as a driver (as I dislike Felipe “the cry baby” Masa) and McLaren as a team, until Lewis started his 2008 demolition derby stunts.

            If Kimi ends up in Mclaren, again I will be behind Kimi “the great” and against Lewis “the Demolitioner”.

            Thank god for Red Bull that I can support whole heartdedly as a team. And Vettel is one of the best active drivers on the grid. Much closer in talent to Kimi than Lewis.

          2. Paige Michael-Shetley
            14th October 2009, 8:51


            You can argue that Kimi better than Lewis. But there’s just no legitimate argument for him being “light years” better than Lewis.

  6. Hiya Harv, this year? Mclaren vs Ferrari is far more interesting. I should be happy next year; I always love it when it is a Mc-Fer drivers and constructors fight :)

    1. lately when the races have finished ive been looking at the points between McLaren and Ferrari straight away, got bored with the championship after the british gp.

      i hope that they both go to abu dabhi with equal points, maybe ferrari will take a new wing of there 2010 and take it there just for the pride.

      O and McLaren news, McLaern have also stoped develpoing this car 3 weeks ago, the new 2010 car is already radically differnet from this year and costruction is going full ahead, from mr. whitmarsh

      2010 looks good for Ferrari, McLaren fans, none of this perfect strategy from ross races next year please. this year has been bescribed as an “interesting” championship, i want and “exciting” one,

      1. Agreed with every bit of that Harv’s!

      2. Amen Harv i agree entirely. It’s supposed to be a race, not chess

  7. McLaren will more than likely finish 3rd, their car development this year has been unbelievable and Hamilton is much better driver now than he’s ever been. Kudos to Ferrari and Kimi though, they stopped developing their car so long ago it’s a wonder they’re still able to score points.

    What will be interesting is if it rains – would the McLaren generate enough downforce to be competitive under those conditions? We saw Lewis spin 3 or 4 times in China while Massa carved through the field…

    1. Yes, Mclaren’s development has been nothing short of phenomenal. This current mclaren car must be re-christened mp4-24b or something. Its so different from the Melbourne spec car. And I think mclaren will obliterate the field next year. I’ll explain why:

      The last time that mclaren started with a dog of a car was 2004, with the mp4-19. It was aerodynamically a radical car, efficient though, but lacked reliability. Adrian newey forgot that merc engine need cooling. The sidepods were so radically different from other cars of that year. their poor season continued till the new mp4-19b( according to martin brundle the fastest f1 car ever built) was introduced. The car was fast & reliable. Kimi stared his throne ascend at spa by winning for the first time.

      In 2005, Mclaren had arguably the fastest car. But again lack of reliability on mercedes side cost them both titles.

      I see a pattern between 04-05 & 09-10.

      2004 2009
      mp4-19 mp4-19b mp4-24 mp4-24b
      dog decent dog decent

      2005 2010
      mp4-20 mp4-25
      killer killer??

      If that Mercedes is anywhere as reliable as this year’s. I see mclaren romping home to both titles. Its long over due!

  8. McLaren should seal the deal with Lewis’ hard work; Kimi has been carrying Ferrari since Hungary but don’t forget it was Massa carrying him for most of the first half! Lewis should also pip Kimi to 5th in the drivers’ standings too, and interestingly is only 8.5 points behind Webber’s 4th, which would be a terrific achievement but I’d rather Mark score points off of Button.

    Either way, it will be great to see Lewis drive the #5 car, funnily enough just like Hill did in 1996 and Mansell in 1992; and just like Mansell, it will be a red 5!

    1. I wouldn’t be surprised if next years mclaren turns out to be a FW14B.

      1. Do you work for McLaren honestly sometimes these comments are ridiculous… I agree wiv me and random chimp please change the record about alonso stop drumming the walking advertisment we know as lewis-beat …

  9. thanks for sorting that out keith!

  10. It has to be Mclaren. Their car is the stronger right now and they have the new aero package to play around with and the stronger Kers. Kovi should also do a better job than fisi who is finding the Ferrari a bit of a handfull. Lets hope Mclaren and Ferrari have great cars next year so we can see Alonso and Lewis battle it out fair and square.

    1. Kovi should also do a better job than fisi

      Doubt that though :) But the mp4-24’s technical advantage will suffice for them to dethrone ferrari from that coveted 3rd place.
      Kimi will have to pull out something very special for ferrari to hang on to that third place & Kimi is capable of doing just that.

  11. And massa and kimi will be in the hunt 2!

      1. Next year of course.

  12. Bit off topic but keith comments by me have be left by mobile so site works very well on mobile!

    1. Good to hear – I don’t think comments are displaying in the right order on the mobile site though, it’s something I need to work on.

      1. Mine so far seem to be in right order from what I sent on mobile, I’ll be trying to get onto live blog via mobile on Friday while I’m stuck at uni…

        1. Im always on this site at uni! and it works very well over here in NZ!

  13. I think McLaren will continue their upswing for form and beat Ferrari to 3rd spot. I seriously doubt Toyota will gain a place on either of them, not if Keith’s graph rings true and carries on like that for the last 2 races.

    1- Brawn GP
    2- Red Bull
    3- McLaren
    4- Ferrari
    5- Toyota

    Would would be a quite special turn of events is if Rubens wins the Drivers crown, and takes his number 1 to Williams. They’d cling to that number 1 like there’s no tomorrow if that happened, although I wouldn’t see them retaining it into 2011.

    1. You never know. Williams have been developing that radical KERS. It might just prove to be the very innovation that might propel them into championship contenders. If they manage to secure that Renault engines, they might be a force to reckon. BTW the last Brazilian to drive for Williams-Renault was the great master himself. Wouldn’t it be great to see Rubens in a Williams-Renault?

      1. Yes, yes it would. As long as they paint said Williams-Renault white, blue, and yellow.

        1. I believe williams will end up with cosworth power. they are too far behind to get renault as that group is in a tailspin after the piquet incident. although the best year reanult motors have had was with williams.

          1. i think you mean cosworth lack-of-power

  14. this has been a season of what ifs and confusion. It is always good for the sport to have someone else enter the frame. Next year will be very different and it will be normal service for Ferrari and Mclaren.
    Lewis has proven in the second half of this year that he really is a driver after the mistakes he made at the start of the year and Kimi also woke up after a long sleep. As a Ferrari fan 3rd of 4th makes no difference, the team race to win. I have been very supprised at the total lack of performance from Kovi, what has he been up to this year. I do have to say that the comments from
    Paige Michael-Shetley made me laugh. The demise of Ferrari are only a matter of time? Time you got out of the goldfish bowl you live in and realise one poor year in ten is not the end as it will be next year for teams like Red Bull, Brawn and Toyota. Anything they pick up next year will mostly be from errors/breakdowns By Ferrari/Mclaren and remember they will have the 4 best drivers with them. top points for others will be few and far between.

    1. If what Ferrari say is true about treating drivers equally, Teflonso will not have any of it. hHe’ll try his antics here. I will be ecstatic to see Ferrari do a ‘Prost 1991‘ to Teflonso. I’ll not be surprised if that happens. Whiners are not allowed at Ferrari.

    2. Paige Michael-Shetley
      14th October 2009, 8:55


      I’m talking about Ferrari’s current 3rd place position in THIS YEAR’s championship. I wasn’t talking about their prospects in the future. If you were reading my comment at anything approaching a post-secondary level of literacy, you would have been able to pick up on this.

  15. Prisoner Monkeys
    13th October 2009, 10:56

    I’m banking on McLaren. Fisichella and Kovalainen are having a rough time, so it comes down to Hamilton and Raikkonen. And in a straight fight, I’m banking on the Briton.

  16. I read the article Harv did I think, apparently the cars is going to have a really extreme double/triple diffuser.

    Next year will be all about McLaren and Ferrari but I don’t think Redbull will be as far off the pace as people are suggesting. Newey is still a force to be reckoned with and Redbull has that beverage empire behind it with considerable clout left in its pocket. Brawn won’t be so good next season but I suspect by 2011 they’ll be back in Championship contention. Especially if this Mercededes buy in goes ahead as planned.

    1. Yeah. Brawn will take a year-off. They’ll be busy with negotiations with Mercedes.

      It will be a Mclaren-Red Bull-Williams fight.

      Don’t ask me bout Ferrari :P

      1. I believ4e brawn has already started taking the year off as they are just getting by now. They will win the constructors championship and probably the drivers also. If brawn was smart he will sell theis outfit and get while the money is good and retire to some carribean island.
        Next year will be mclaren, williams, ferrari, then brawn.

      2. Paige Michael-Shetley
        14th October 2009, 9:02


        It’s great to have another fan of the McLaren TEAM on the board! Cheers, mate!

        Ferrari, I think, will have a good car for next year. The aerodynamic regulations won’t change, true. But the ban on refueling is going to have a HUGE effect on the cars. They’ll have to carry bigger fuel tanks, which will change the weight distribution of the cars, for sure.

        On top of it, the weight distribution throughout the race will change as fuel burns, which will certainly have a very significant impact on the behavior of the cars as the race wears on.

        At the same time, tire management is going to be important next year, as tire wear will have more of an impact relative to fuel load (since everyone will presumably have similar levels of fuel on board in each stint) than it has for a long time. In fact, I would argue that Brawn could be positioned to do well next year if the car will be an evolution of the BGP002, as it’s done well at managing the tires this year.

        These are very tricky issues for the engineers to handle. So Ferrari might not be as off the mark in starting their work on them as you might think.

        At the same time, though, McLaren are playing a very good strategy of developing the car for the current aerodynamic regulations and coming to understand them for the purpose of better application in the future. Whitmarsh has already hinted of a possibly “radical” DDD for next year.

  17. Good chart!
    It’s impressive to see the evolution of Ferrari since the Hungarian GP, with just 1 driver who scores points…

  18. One fatal flaw to your mclaren dream mp4…ferrari!:-P

    1. Don’t even bring Ferrari into the equation, they’ll keep themselves busy over the season, they have enough on their head without having to think about competing with mclaren. :P

      1. If the Ferrari and McLaren are the best in the field next year it’s going to be 1986 all over again.

        Lewis, Alonso and Massa will take points off of each other all season long. Alonso and Massa will become obsessed with beating one another to establish number 1 status at Ferrari (just like Mansell and Piquet did), and Lewis will casually pick up the pieces after they have fallen out an will win the WDC just like Prost did.

        1. Guess who was Prost’s team mate in 86? Keke Rosberg. Would it be purely coincidental if Nico partners Lewis next year & it turns out to be another 1986? So who blows the tyre at the last GP. Alonso or Massa? Has to be Alonso, cuz Piquet-Massa(brazil) didn’t blow it :P

          1. what happened after the 86′ season? The mp4-3 and mp4-4 came along and mclaren dominated in the most sucessful f1 season ever! After 88′ couldnt love another team

  19. I was hoping for Toyota and also believed strongly that had the accident of Timo didn’t happen, he would have been there near Trulli and Toyota would have looked very good for 3rd Position.

    Now i think most probably Mclaren would take 3rd especially because of Abu Dhabi, Mclaren will be capable of scoring lots of points there.

  20. I see a lot of praise and phrases like “wringing’ the car, when it comes to Lewis, for these last couple of races. I certainly dont disagree with those assessments, Lewis has been doing a fantastic job.
    But it should also be noted that Kimi certainly deserves the same if not perhaps more praise, you sometimes have to give credit where it is due.
    It is only because of Kimi that Ferrari is still 3rd in the championship. The Ferrari has been slower then the Mclaren for a while now, Mclaren should really and properly will take 3rd in the championship at Brazil. They also deserve the 3rd place because they have really turned that car around, in a very short time.

    One of the best highlights of the season has certainly been seeing Lewis and Kimi fighting it out for that 3rd place in the constructors, both have been driving exquisitely.

    1. It is only because of Kimi that Ferrari is still 3rd in the championship

      Considering about 1/3 of their WCC points are from the efforts of a man who hasn’t driven for six races and scored them when the Ferrari wasn’t as competitive as it is now!

      I knew once Kimi started performing again the fans would be over-hyping every point he got. Isn’t it suspicious that he started doing well when Massa was injured and Ferrari improved their car to fight for podiums regularly? Kimi has been doing very well but when I see comments like “stunning” and “best driver of the second half of the season” it makes me want to vomit.

      To compare Lewis and Kimi, in his two wins Lewis KERSed away at the start and never looked back. Kimi, by contrast, KERSed away but also had to use it to hold off a Force India twice in two races. I think that demonstrates the difference between them in a nutshell.

      1. Paige Michael-Shetley
        14th October 2009, 9:09

        “I knew once Kimi started performing again the fans would be over-hyping every point he got. Isn’t it suspicious that he started doing well when Massa was injured and Ferrari improved their car to fight for podiums regularly? Kimi has been doing very well but when I see comments like “stunning” and “best driver of the second half of the season” it makes me want to vomit.”

        Ferrari stopped developing the car at the Nurb, which is before Massa had his accident.

        Raikkonen was in position to score more points than he did when Massa was around, but had a number of problems hold him back. The team screwed his strategy at Sepang when he was looking good for 4th or 5th. The engine lost power at Shanghai, and again at the Nurb. They blew his race to bits at Barcelona when they failed to send him out late in Q1 to set a competitive time when the track was quick. So in half the races to start the year, Ferrari screwed him over with unreliability or poor strategy. (Just as they screwed him over last year in about half the races.)

      2. “best driver of the second half of the season” it makes me want to vomit.

        Well, that’s reality for you. He’s got the most points since Silverstone. Here’s the table for you. Points won since Silverstone:

        RAI: 45 – 10 = 35
        HAM: 43 – 9 = 34
        BAR: 71 – 41 = 30
        VET: 69 – 39 = 30
        BUT: 85 – 64 = 21

        The Massa yardstick argument is valid. However, there are plenty of other good drivers on the grid in good cars, so beating all of them is not too shabby. Plus podiums and a win are absolute results.

        Massa’s achievements are what they are, and they need to be able to stand up to scrutiny without comparison to other drivers.

        What entertains me about Massa fans is their faustian relationship with Raikkonen – they need Kimi to be just good enough to be used as a yardstick for Massa in 2008 (“Massa beat Kimi!!”), but they can’t have him be better than their beloved Massa. They have to have Kimi positioned just right, else all their arguments fall apart. Because Massa doesn’t really have any absolute results in the books just yet (WDC or F1 records) – it’s all relative to Kimi.

  21. I think McLaren will just do it, but if at rains at Interlagos I’m not sure this year’s car is quite as good as the last.

    For this reason, I’d say Ferrari have a chance, although how motivated Kimi is now could be the decisive factor.

    1. although how motivated Kimi is now could be the decisive factor.

      He would be motivated than ever before. Just to show Ferrari, the grave blunder they’ve committed by dumping him for a less talented driver.

      1. your right there, I believe once kimi is clear of ferrari the nasty side of kimi will appear where the red cars are concerned.

      2. Paige Michael-Shetley
        14th October 2009, 9:21

        Personally, I think something has just been missing from Kimi since he went to Ferrari. He no longer really had the “Iceman” edge to him once he got there.

        With McLaren, he was a perfect fit: cool driver sets devastatingly quick with cold-blooded efficiency at a team known for its trademark mastery of model engineering and calculation. Even the livery fit him: the prominent silver in the car really reinforced the “Iceman” persona, whereas the red at Ferrari just suits the passionate Alonso and Massa more. At McLaren, he can be the Iceman who just shows up, tells the engineers what the car’s doing, they fix it, and he goes out and drives it bloody quickly. At Ferrari, they wanted him to be friends with everyone, which just wasn’t going to work.

  22. I think McLaren have to be the favourites to finish third in the constructors championship as not only did Ferrari stop developing their 2009 car before McLaren did, but Fisichella just doesn’t look likely to score any points.

  23. Sorry for being a bit off the topic, but Have you guys read this???

    1. Noob Indian road officials. As if they care for road safety. Sad part was that a driver of DC’s caliber was forced to apologize to corrupt Indian road officials. And even worse, they’ve fined Red Bull!!

      And they want an Indian GP!

      1. Mind ur tounge abt India and Indians. Its Bernie who wants a track in India but u wud not be knowing this because a person whose name is as MP4-19B must be old enough not to know the facts. Change your name to Anthony Raikkonnen

        1. Mind ur tounge abt India

          What is a tounge??

      2. @MP4-Whatever,
        Sorry, yesterday cud not get any time to browse F1F. Saw ur comment just now.
        I would like to ask you a question.
        How many times have you been to India? Or it is your inheritance to hate India and Indian people???

        1. Alright! This isn’t a ‘hate’ thread. And there’s no reason to spit fire on any particular country or getting personal here.

          As for DC’s case, I find it ridiculous that he’s been fined that heavily. I don’t think a normal person in India will be fined anything more than Rs. 100, if he does get fined at all. Besides, drivers get a fine of $10K/$20K while speeding in the pitlane in races and here he’s been fined $70K+. And this being a roadshow of a F1 car, the road was closed for traffic, so how do the normal traffic rules apply. What do you expect to see, an F1 car crawl at 50 kph. lol

          Were the Renault drivers fined for overspeeding at Oviedo or Bucharest?

        2. How many times have you been to India?

          16 times. Was almost killed during my last visit in a horrible road accident, but lost my cousin who could have easily been saved, but for the sheer negligence on the part of road safety officials. And I alone know how much “help I received from govt officials, just ask any foreigner what he/she thinks about Indian Roads & the people who manage them . The drunk driver who caused this mishap is out on bail & is getting married shortly.

          Or it is your inheritance to hate India and Indian people???

          No. I don’t hate Indian people. I have the greatest sympathies for them. The roads they drive on is a gateway to hell. My anger was directed at the corrupt Indian road officials, not the Indian public.

          Hope that cleared your doubt. If my statements have hurt you or any Indians in any sense, I profusely apologize.

          1. I’m sorry for your loss and it’s a shame but it’s true that roads and the administration is in a disgusting state in India.

            But the Indian government officials aren’t keen about the Indian GP, the fans are.

          2. If my statements have hurt you or any Indians in any sense, I profusely apologize

            Definitely it did hurt me…not only for this one, but also for this:

            You Indians never get it, do you?

            or even this one

            Funniest part was an Indian telling off be rational LOL

            I feel really really sory from my heart for the loss you suffered. But probably you cant single out a particular country where this kind of accident may happen. I have been here in the UK (Leeds, to be particular) for last one year, and I have seen at least 3 horrible accidents, two of them resulting extreme casualties.
            I dont know which country do you belong, but if somebody continiously keep saying some unacceptable comments about your countrymen in general (I have no objection to what you have said about the officials), probably you too will find it hard to digest.

  24. I reckon Ferrari will get 3rd. Ferrari should out-perform McLaren in Brazil.

  25. “Kimi Raikkonen has done a commendable job”
    kimi done a amazing job with this f60!!!!
    lewis goe faster since mclaren update his car…kimi dont’t have updates since hungary…3 months!!!!
    4 podium finishes and 1 victory = commendable job????
    i’m a kimi fan, but i want mclaren finish ahead of ferrari…ferrari was the alonso/santander team!!!

    1. You mean the podium earned by only having to beat Heikki Kovalainen after the start, the podium gifted by a Hamilton who would rather have spun off than settle for 3rd, and the victory gained through deliberately going off-line at La Source? Circumstance is important in F1 but hardly makes a good drive amazing. Kimi has been doing a very good job, but don’t over-hype it!

    2. is that why ferrari gave kimi the boot?,

  26. Kimi is srsly gonna smoke them….its just proving himself before turning out from red to white(or may call black)


  27. mp4-19b you need to leave Ferrari alone…they beaten McLaren enough times in the past and sir you to me is a hater. we’ll see how 2010 will go down…..

    1. And how many times did they beat mclaren Fairly??

      1. 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and 2007? =)

      2. A hell of a lot of times mp4-19b.

        This ‘how many times did they beat mclaren Fairly??” stuff just can’t be taken seriously.

  28. he answered your question and your still a hater.

  29. No mention of poor Kofailainen in this otherwise excellent post. It has been rather surprising to see him where he is, but he is still the key to the outcome. He has scored consistent points, kind of, which is far more than we can expect of Fisi. KOF’s additional 5-6 points will be what settles the likely rough draw between Hamilton and Raikkonen at the front.

    This season, a lack of testing, and difficult and complex cars have really separated the superstars from the highly-skilled. Hamilton, Alonso, Raikkonen have shown how to transcend a car and its development, and have left well-regarded teammates in the dust. One does have to leave Vettel out of this. I’ts surprising. But, frankly, he has only excelled when the car was on an ideal track and has not consistently handled Webber.

  30. I have to say Kimi and Lewis are level pegging if not Lewis a bit better, i do rate Kimi as a driver, but he doesn’t try as hard as lewis which is why lewis, will always be slightly better. Kimi is happy to truddle along, while hamilton will push until the checkered flag. Lewis and Mclaren will overtake kimi and ferrari at brazil by at least two clear points. also stop the alonso bashing he’s a great driver, he just likes moving teams and causing controversy

  31. McLaren will clearly do it, Fisichella isnt settled into an awkward car, even HK more likey to score, LH edges KR, and the McLaren is just a better car than the Ferrari.

  32. i heard that Brawn GP start developing 2010 car since 4th series [Bahrain] of 2009 season … does anyone know about this ?

    1. Teams usually start work on next years car early in the current year, it is more about how much of their resources they use developing this years car and how much on next years car.

      For example in 2008 McLaren and Ferrari were both still committing a lot of their resources to their 2008 cars right down to the last race as they fought for the championship, which is one of the reasons given for this years below par performance. Whereas Honda realised that their 2008 car was rubbish at the start of the year, and as they knew that the 2009 regulations changes meant everyone would be virtually starting from scratch decided to devote all their resources to their 2009 car, which is why Brawn look set to clinch both titles at the moment.

      Given their early season dominance Brawn may have decided to commit more resources to developing their 2010 car after Bahrain, but as the title fights closed up they probably decided to switch back to the 2009 car.

  33. If you agree COlts are going to lose become a fan of FB page Colts Will Lose Super Bowl 2010!

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