Should Webber have got Red Bull’s new front wing instead of Vettel? (Poll)

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Sebastian Vettel is on pole position for tomorrow’s British Grand Prix.

But team mate Mark Webber could be starting from the coveted P1 had Red Bull team principal Christian Horner not taken a controversial decision to take the team’s new front wing off Webber’s car and put it on Vettel’s.

Did Horner make the right call?

Red Bull brought two of their new front wings to Silverstone. But the first was broken when it failed on Vettel’s car during final practice this morning.

After practice the sole remaining example of the new design was taken off Webber’s car and put on Vettel’s. Horner explained his reasons for doing it:

After this morning’s incident we only had one new spec front wing available for qualifying, which Adrian [Newey] was very keen to run; not necessarily because it was better, but because it offered a new direction to look at.

Therefore it came to me to make a difficult decision as to which car it went on. A situation like that is not ideal and it doesn’t happen very often. It went to Sebastian based on Championship position, his performance in P3 and the drivers’ feedback on the different front wings from yesterday.
Christian Horner

Leaving the new wing in the garage for the sake of fairness between the drivers would have been senseless – in F1, you have to seize every advantage you can lay your hands on.

But it’s easy to see why Horner’s decision will be seen as favouring Vettel. Vettel may be 12 points ahead of Webber in the championship – but he only moved ahead of him in the last round.

And while Horner points to the difference between them in P3 as being part of the reason for the decision, the gap between them was very small. Vettel was just 0.034s faster, Webber having spent the early part of the session running a higher fuel load due to losing track time with a car problem.

The team’s drivers have been very closely matched this year – they have won the same number of races and are almost inseparable on single-lap pace.

Their immediate rivals are not likely to take points off them this weekend. Having brought two wings to the track surely the reasonable thing to do would have been to let each driver keep one for the weekend – particularly given they are so evenly matched on performance.

Red Bull faced accusations of favouring Vettel after the Turkish Grand Prix, when they blamed Webber for a collision between the two which was widely perceived to have been Vettel’s fault.

This is not a new dilemma. The pace of development in F1 is so fast that teams often have to choose between which driver gets a development first.

It remains to be seen whether Red Bull will have another new front wing ready to put on Webber’s car in time for tomorrow’s race.

Who should have got the new front wing?

  • Neither (8%)
  • Mark Webber (79%)
  • Sebastian Vettel (13%)

Total Voters: 2,440

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    218 comments on “Should Webber have got Red Bull’s new front wing instead of Vettel? (Poll)”

    1. Well Webber should have got it since it was *his*.

      But I doubt it was that important. Webber beat Vettel in Q1 and Q2 comfortably when both driver were on the harder tyres. Only on the softer one, did Vettel manage to get a tenth up on Webber.

      For all you know, perhaps the new wing does not gel well with the harder tyres and Webber might have a chance of getting by Vettel later in the race by virtue of Vettel getting his front wing. A blessing-in-disguise perhaps.

      1. Not sure what saturday qualifying you were watching, but Vettel beat webber in Q1 and Q3. But as much as I dont like webber, removing parts form a car and giving to another sounds wrong to me. Thenagain, vettel would have had way more points and wins this year if not for a poor reliability problem at the beginning of the season, so maybe redbull is trying to make up for letting him down all the time.

      2. Webber is whining Batch and caused the accident back when.
        He is fighting for contracts but is just hurting the team and himself.

        1. He has already signed a contract extension so that should stop your berating of him nicely in its tracks.

        2. miguelF1O (@)
          11th July 2010, 10:40

          or webber is this years barichello. i think redbull has given webber the task of being 2nd to ensure vettel wins the most points possible

      3. Maybe the new wing will fail again… I’m not saying anything, but that would be kind of poetic justice…

        1. vettel doesnt take care of his car as well as mark, hell prob rip it off on a curb lap 1.

        2. I really hope justice is served and the new wing fails during the race. It is obvious that RB is favouring vettel. We don’t need this sort of favouritism in F1. marko, honner and vettel go home!

      4. miguelF1O (@)
        10th July 2010, 19:24

        yesterday in practice and this morning webber was very confortable he only needed a couple of laps to get quicker than vettel who had to do several runs red bull reached a part of the season were they just want to win so because of last weekend airbourne webber is clearly 2nd driver for the team although showing better form

        1. miguelF1O (@)
          10th July 2010, 19:27

          i would say neither the race is between 2 red bull and they dont have the dignity of letting them race on the same level last year and early this year i was disapointed with mark but he has prove to be quicker he should be champ by right he is older and had to struggle all career simply unfair

          1. I totally agree. F1 should have a system in which new aspiring drivers have to go through a series of steps before reaching F1 echelon and not leapfrog other older and wiser drivers. vettel should be still running in lesser categories and not being in F1 getting in the way of more experience drivers (e.g Webber)

            1. Are you crazy? Vettel is way better than Webber. Last year Vettel kicked Webbers A**. And it was just his 2nd or 3rd season in F1. How many years has Webber under his belt? Vettel should be still running in lesser categories??? Well, that says it all: go watch your naked Webber pictures and drool all over them and post when you have something that at least remotely makes sense…

            2. MEmo, last year, Webber was still recovering from his broke leg. And at the summer break in the season there was not much between them in points. Then Webber had a range of team/equipment/bad luck failure.

              I only got to see the quali recording today, and I didn’t yet know about the front wing – they were fighting for pole, but did not get equal equipment. Yes, Vettel tends to be a bit faster, but this Q3 does not prove that, without equal equipment.

    2. Vettel has got more points in the championship and the fight is first of all against the opposition

      1. That is a senseless argument at this point and the championship and given the small gap between the two.

        1. It is logical. What if the championship is lost by 1 point? Everyone here would be saying that Red Bull should have done everything to make sure Vettel got as many points possible. Remember that this is real racing, with real money, lots of it at stake.

          1. Yea valid, but that eliminates the whole “equal chances” policy, and I think its too early to be making these calls given Mark could leave Silverstone in front of Vettel still with 9 races to go, 225 points still up for grabs. My understanding of this is priority is given when the team mate is mathmatically or rather close to being out of the race for the title. To show priority to one driver over the other when the points differential is 5% of the total points still up for grabs one must ask the question: do the drivers get equal treatment?

            1. I don’t think it does eliminate the “equal chances” argument. They gave both drivers the same new wing. When Vettel’s wing failed due to a mechanical flaw he had no control over they were left with one wing. At that point it really only seems fair that they give the wing to the driver who’s leading the other in the championship much the same as all teams favor their leading driver to pit earlier than their second driver during a race. It’s common sense. Now that Webber’s won the race and leapfrogged Vettel in the standings, I would expect them to give him the advantage at the next race if a similar unfortunate incident occurred, forcing the team into such a decision. Red Bull made the right call. Webber should stop his whining. Oh, and he should also re-watch the race to get some tips from Vettel on how to make passes from the back of the field without taking the car into orbit.

            2. US_Peter. Yes it’s common sense. Now, Webber y 1st pilot, so common sense will give priority to Webber. But, is it common sense as you say or it’s just a preference inside Redbull with Vettel?

    3. Driver feedback I can understand, but Horner’s reasoning in terms of championship position is ridiculous and sets a dangerous precedent. Another RBR foot-shooting-fest. What if Vettel bins the car this race and Webber gets a smilar points advantage? His turn to get all the mod cons next race? Some chance!

      Before Valencia I’d have said this would inspire Webber, know I’m not sure. Difficult not to see another track tangle coming up soon, though.

    4. A wing just doesn’t fall off so I assume that Vettel damaged it somehow. For instance hitting it on one of these “destructo kerbs”.

      It’s a bit insane to punish Webber for that.

      Of course Vettel is slightly ahead in the championship, but it’s not that much of a difference.

      1. I think it was a problem when the wing was attached in the garage.

        1. But it could also be a design flaw. In which case maybe Webber got the better deal!

          1. It could be all that, but seeing how Vettel bounces over the kerbs and Webber doesn’t (so much), it’s obvious that Vettel’s car takes a whole lot more pounding than Webber’s.

            1. vettel is harder on the car than Webber, this seems to be the reason behing his car failures at the begninning of the season and I believe this is going to catch up with vettel during this season the sooner or later.

      2. Newey cars are fragile. And the cars are taking a mighty pounding over those bumps.

      3. anakincarlos
        11th July 2010, 0:09

        If rolls were reversed and webber was leading the campionship, there is no way the “team” would give him vettel wing.

    5. After attempting to type several replies, I’ll just leave it at this – the team that I used to love, the great force that is RBR, now makes me sick. Whether or not the wing is worth more time, the decision is just wrong.

      1. I agree. How difficult would it be to have made two wings and have them on both cars.. It seems Webber is getting the raw end of the stick..

        1. Jarred Walmsley
          10th July 2010, 20:56

          Well, thats the thing, there was two but then cause Vettel doesn’t know the meaning of careful driving damaged his wing so he got Mark’s as they couldn’t make another one in time.

          That was a poor decision on Horner’s part as it was rightfully Mark’s wing as he didn’t damage it and he should have kept it. Ah, well hopefully Vettel will damage it again during the race and allow Mark to win

    6. Pedro Andrade
      10th July 2010, 16:25

      The front wing was on Webber’s car, so it should not have been taken away from him! Even if Vettel’s wing failure was not his blame, tough luck, it happened to his car.

      It’s a shame, Vettel was my favourite driver, but even if this is not his fault I find it hard to cheer for him when he does well.

    7. Yes, Red Bull does not give you wings.

      1. Pedro Andrade
        10th July 2010, 16:27

        Red Bull chops your wings and gives them to your “mate”.

        1. +1 Alexi
          +1 Pedro Andrade

          Gave me a good chuckle :)

    8. eh, now that I think about it, a faliure is a bit different to Vettle actually busting the thing, then it would have been wrong.

      Still, Vettle does seem to get the majority of the teams support. Willing to bet new parts will always be on Vettle’s car first.

      1. It’s still wrong. It was Webber’s wing!! It’s like having 2 daughters, you give both a lollypop, the favourite daughter drops it so you just take it away from the ugly daughter. What if Vettel’s car simply fell apart completely during FP3? I agree that it is unlikely but suppose. Should Webber sit on the fence while Vettel is qualifying with HIS car??? This is just a terrible decision.

    9. I voted Webber simply because it was already on his car. If they had both broke their wings and there was only one spare then fair enough, but to physically remove it from Marks car and put it on the other car is clear favouritism.

      Psychologically this will have affected Mark and subtlety his driving. Expect fireworks tomorrow.

      Red Bull sucks! I vote Webber for World Driver Championship.

    10. I want Webber to beat Vettel tomorrow.. this is so unfair

      1. yeah… An angry Mark Webber racing? That’s the best this to look forward to at Silverstone today. Should be a treat, cant wait!

        1. So pity for Mark where his oponents are inside his backyard. I will laugh out loud if he beat Vettel tommorow.

    11. Roger Carballo AKA Archtrion
      10th July 2010, 16:29

      Hell, no. Period.

    12. Robert McKay
      10th July 2010, 16:30

      I think it should have stayed with Webber. If the gap between them was 50 or 60 points, I’d see the point, but the gap of 12 is fairly small in the context of the new scoring system.

      But if it fails again during the race perhaps Mark will be glad he didn’t get it.

      Would be interesting to see Webber sneak ahead in the points though to see if such things go his way…

      1. But Horner already gave 2 excuses for why Vettel got the wing. So even if Webber is ahead on points, Webber will do heavy fuel load runs in FP3 and Vettel still gets the wing as he will be faster in FP3.

        1. They did that already. Vettel did 3 short stints in FP3 and Webber did one long stint and only one qualy run.

          Then even though Vettel’s whole practice session was based on qualifying practice and Webber was only allowed to do 1 run, Webber was still only 3 hundredths of a second slower.

          They didn’t just give Vettel the advantage of the best front wing, they gave him most chance of being ahead in FP3 too.

    13. I think Webber has been hobbled by this call. Of course it is not acceptable to leave the part in the garage come race day but as each crew were given a wing each, seeing how they are so close and really only racing each other tomorrow, it’s just a case of tough luck.

      Unless there is some post-race revelation of another reason why it was vital to have the wing on Vettel’s car instead of Webber’s, this is poor form.

      Going in to qualifying, both drivers offered equal opportunity to provide a race win as both have the same number of wins this year.

      The unfortunate part of this is that the opposition teams will now be scrutinising the new wing as it offers an insight to future RBR development.

      Is it too early to start the ‘Webber to Renault’ rumours yet? ;)

      1. Remember at the beginning of the season RBR rule that the driver who was ahead had to pit first? and then during a race when Webber was ahead of vettel RBR made vettel to pit first? uh oh! and then all the fuss that marko, horner and vettel did in Turkey? uh oh?. I believe RBR should be fined by FIA and marko, horner and vettel kicked out of F1 for the good of the sport.

    14. I don’t care. There was one, it was up to the team to decide, and they did. Even if their reasons are that they like Seb better that is fine by me. All this talk about equality is for the drivers not the fans so if it encourages dischord which could lead to more ontrack shenanigans then all to the good.

      1. True, and it’s fine by me – as a non-RBR fan! – if RBR self-detonate. But that doesn’t preclude making an ‘as if’ judgment about the wisdom of Red Bull’s treatment of its drivers.

        1. Yes, that is true. So, assuming the public information is all the information there is what would I do?

          I would make a judgement about which driver was most likely to win the most points over the season and therefore to be most in need of extra points to ensure top spot against a competitor, and on that basis give it to Vettel.

          1. Sure Andrew, but I don’t agree with the reasoning. It presumes RBR continues to dominate. But there’s a reasonable chance of Ferrari and McLaren catching them soon in qualifying and forcing Red Bull’s drivers to fight it out more on track. If so, Webber has more chances I think than Vettel. And if that’s true, undermining him now (again remember after blaming him for the Turkey shoot out) may be costly since they could be entering Alonso 2007 territory with a seriously disaffected driver. Seems a lot to risk on a relatively minor point of Seb or Web being 1 or 2 in this race. Instead they’ve heated up the situation massively.

            1. I don’t think Webber has a better chance; I think Vettel is fundamentally a better driver; however, that is a matter of opinion and unprovable either way.

              If I am wrong and Webber is better then perhaps he is more able to do without the new wing for this one race and so it should still go to Seb.

              If it is a matter of experience and maturity then Webber should be better able to deal with not being given the wing so again it should still go to Seb.

            2. Helmut, is that you? ;)

            3. So basically the recipe is Vettel: molly-coddle, Webber: goad! Might work. Personally I think Red Bull are playing with fire though and will eventually see their season vanish in a puff of smoke. All those viral videos of happy times at McLaren seem to have got them rattled.

            4. Andrew, your logic is flirting with idiocy.

            5. I think Andrew’s highlighting an important concern.
              I’ve just noticed that we have become obsessed with drivers being equal, and I don’t mean relatively equal where by the end of the season it’s pretty much balanced out. I mean REALLY equal. Almost to the point where we’d get upset if Vettel or Webber got nicer toothpaste than the other one.

              Does it matter that much? I mean, Wouldn’t we have heard from Webber if he was upset? I think this might be just a commentator fuelled media frenzy pouncing on the whole “Is Webber hard done by? isn’t he? is he? isn’t he?” thing…

            6. Well look at it this way mate. If it didn’t mean much it wouldn’t have been taken off Webbers car in the first place. It does mean something, Horner has acknowledged that.

              My point was more directed at the previous comments of Andrew, whom Im guessing is on the payroll at Red Bell.

    15. I think the key point here, which I see Horner has been trying to play down, was that it was Webber’s wing. Why should he be put at a disadvantage just because Vettel’s broke? And does anyone really believe that they would have done the same if the situation had been reversed? And if the difference was so minimal, why did they have to swap?

      It can’t be coincidence that everytime a wiff of bias arises at Red Bull, its towards Vettel….

      1. Precisely. Horner’s comment that they wanted to use the wing “not necessarily because it was better, but because it offered a new direction to look at” doesn’t tally *at all* with him then saying he based his decision on current championship position. He’s making a dog’s dinner of this again by trying to downplay RBR’s corporate preference for Vettel, though I can understand he’s in a dilemma trying to sound ‘fair’ when the team is clearly not being so.

      2. Exactly. It was Webbers wing, why take it away.
        Vettel may have damaged the wing on track, or his crew made a mistake and they lost it. Bad luck or team mistakes, no need to punish Mark for them.

        1. Especially if the performance difference is not so important. Webber has more experience, and if he is busy evaluating the wing, he has less time to fight for the win with Vettel, I’d think.

          Red Bull should have not dragged the championship points into it, given that resulted from a bad race from Mark/the team two weeks earlier, and only need a 3rd or better race to reverse. (and it showed, just having seen the recorder race).

    16. ‘Red Bull gives you Webber’s wings’ … aah, please yourself.

      I don’t think anyone could sensibly argue about leaving the unbroken wing in the back of the van, but mid-season, to walk over and unbolt it from one car to stick it on the other, that’s just crazy-talk.

      They really want to watch themselves here, playing a real dangerous game – with a car advantage that should make this all a walk in the park, they are somehow contriving to make a real mess of it. Instead of their crowning achievement, they are alienating and aggravating an awful lot of punters along the way.

      They could end up winning this thing and losing way more than they gain, a tarnished championship victory with everyone saying ‘yeah but’, a championship won with a thumb on the scale.

      Falling from a lot of people’s second favorite team, to everyone’s least favorite team, and for a marketing company like Red Bull, can’t see how that makes much sense.
      You are holding on too tight guys.

      1. ‘Red Bull gives you Webber’s wings’

        I laughed so hard I thought I was going to have a hernia. Pure genius comment, mate.

        And, for the record, I think RBR’s decison was a lot of bull…mainly of the brown color, not the red.

    17. Horner is contradicting himself, he says he gave it to Sebastian because he was leading in the WDC and because he was faster in P3 yet he says there was no real time to be gained with new wing. If it was of no benefit why take it of Webber’s car and give it to Vettel?

      This and the comments coming out of Red Bull after Turkey stink of a team favouring one driver over the other. Given Webber’s performances it is grossly unfair to favour Vettel when the gap in the WDC is so small as Keith said the gap in P3 was pretty much meaningless.

    18. yea, i think mark webber should get the new wing as well.. Because, it is simply not fair to him, by keep using the the reason of ” because vettel is in lead”/ Come on, the 12 pts lead of vettel in old system is prob only at maximum 4-5 pts, which is nothing that great actually.

      And whats more infuriating is that VET had gone his chance of the wing as well! IT IS JUST THAT HE DESTROYED IT HIMSELF. So , why does his teammate , WEB, have to bear the consequence of him destroying his own wing?

      I dont see why can’t Christian Horner give the wing to WEB and VET use the old specs wing. I strongly believe, they definitely have enough Old WINGS.

      It is simply favoritism in RED BULL. I believe in top teams such as Ferrari, Mclaren, such incidents will not be an issue, as if one driver destroy his own set of equipments he is given, he will just have to accept the older one.

    19. One for Vettel, One for Webber.

      If Vettel one fails, bad luck…

      but no, they give him Mark’s one.

      The standings position is not relevant anyway. 12 points isn’t a big gap and Mark’s performances over the year prove that he’s up to it, just as Vettel is.

      Favouring one over the other it’s stupid at this point.

    20. Webber does not own the wing. But Horner really went too far with those ridiculous comments—blaming it on Newey! The bottom line is that Webber had his car stripped in favor of the other guy. It is immaterial whether or not the wing was faster per se—if it were slower it would not have been on Webber’s car at all.

      It also appears that the team screwed up Webber’s timing robbing him of a second lap on the options—he would have been the last to cross the line. This is becoming a pattern.

      There is a saying that even a dog knows the difference between being kicked and tripped over.

      1. Well said, DaveW!

        I think that Webber should have kept it, under the circumstances. If there was only one wing available for the whole weekend, then it would understandable that Vettel got it, as he’s in front in the Championship. But he had one, it fell off. Better luck next time, I say.

        If the team wants to have a leader, just admit that Vettel is it, and we can all move on. But frankly, I find Christian Horner’s continued comments on the matter to be smug, condescending, arrogant and barely shy of a politicians twisting of the facts. He has insulted Webber by stating that Mark is lucky to be given the chance in a front-running team, but he forgets that Webber joined a MIDFIELD team, and helped to bring them to the front. Let’s also not forget that before Newey came to the team, it was HORNER who was nearly looking for a new job. What an arrogant pill.

        1. I totally agree with Toby. Horner go home once for all.

        2. Horner couldn’t lie straight in bed !

          1. No Favourites
            11th July 2010, 15:37

            Christian Horner should be sacked.

            He’s destroying the ‘brand’s’ image. He seems to put his foot in his mouth, every time he opens it.

        3. Here here Toby! Hopefully Mark’s bad luck of previous years stays away enough this year to sock it to them!! Great to see ‘number 2’ ahead of number 1 on the driver’s championship after being ripped off a wing.

    21. Helmut Marko
      10th July 2010, 16:45

      If Seb damages his helmet, we’ll take Marks and give it to Seb. We could care less if Mark drives with a helmet or not.

      1. Pedro Andrade
        10th July 2010, 16:50

        I bet if Vettel flat-spots all his tires, you’ll give all of Webber’s to him! After all, he is leading Webber in the championship. Unless he gets stuck behind Webber with the McLarens behind, than it’s just sensible to have Webber surrender the position.

      2. Seb doesn’t need Webber’s helmet. He already has a spare and it’s called “Marko”.

        1. Umar Farooq Khawaja
          12th July 2010, 19:45

          LMFAO! Loved that!

    22. I don’t think it really matters. For PR they could have given it to Webber, but at they end of they day if they think Vettel is the one most capable of delivering a championship then why not give him the wing? I’m no fan of Vettel but mechanically he’s had the short end of the stick and were it not for that then he’d be way ahead of Webber anyway.

      1. Pedro Andrade
        10th July 2010, 16:54

        It’s more a question of ethics. In the Schumacher-Ferrari days, everyone knew the second driver was screwed (and even then they managed to stuff up big!). And both Barrichello and Irvine never had a chance of competing against Schumacher (even in 2004 and 2002 Barrichello would race with the other teams, instead of always going second behind Schumacher).

        Now Red Bull are pretending to be so fair to their drivers, but are consistently undermining Webber. Webber has been much faster than in previous years, even if making mistakes here and there.

        1. Irvine would have won the Championship the year Schumacher broke his leg, except that Irvine had to let Schumacher past in an earlier race. If he hadn’t had to do that, Schumacher could have moved over in the final race and Irvine would have won. How’s that for irony?

          1. Pedro Andrade
            10th July 2010, 17:17

            Ha, yes, and Schumacher was not that far ahead in the championship when he broke his legs. :P

            But reportedly Ferrari were quite happy to wait another year to have their favoured win the title.

          2. In which race did Irvine have to move over? The only race, pre-Silverstone that I remember Irvine finishing behind Schumacher without anyone inbetween was Monaco, where Schumacher drove off into the distance and Irvine passed Hakkinen in the pit stops.

            1. Pedro Andrade
              11th July 2010, 1:16

              Daniel is probably referring to Magny-Cours. Schumacher was ahead pf Irvine at the end of the race, but was going much slower, and the team ordered them to hold station. Later in the year Irvine mentioned this incident saying he could’ve been ahead of Hakkinen if the team had let him pass.

            2. But Schumacher let Irvine win in Malaysia, so…

            3. Pedro is right, it was the 1999 French GP I was referring to. My memory isn’t as good as I thought it was, but that 1 point would have been enough if Shumacher had slowed to allow Irvine past in the last race of the season.

              And since team orders were common then, I don’t think anyone would have had any qualms about doing that.

              Ferrari instigated team orders too early in the season, and it cost them.

      2. Vettel more chance of the WDC? I think that’s a marginal call when the team is out in front, as of now. But *if* McLaren or Ferrari close the gap to zero or pull ahead, the RBR drivers will have to start overtaking on the track for real (not just pit-stop-assisted). And under that scenario Webber would be significantly ahead I think. If I was RBR I’d be keeping them both sweet.

        1. FYI — McLaren lead both championships

        2. Thanks for the info DaveW! I meant close the gap in qualifying.

      3. No Favourites
        11th July 2010, 15:43

        “I’m no fan of Vettel but mechanically he’s had the short end of the stick and were it not for that then he’d be way ahead of Webber anyway.”

        IMO, I actually think Webber is the better driver now.

        Vettel may have had raw pace at the beginning, same as most rookies with a decent car, but Webber has matched his pace and also appears to be a much smoother driver.

        Vettel’s failures may have more to do with his own rough driving style.

    23. I found an interesting quote from Webber – I couldn’t find it in English, translated it goes something like this:

      “I think the team is pleased with today’s outcome – said Webber asked about the situation – but I’d rather be a third than the second, we know that the start from this side of track is hopeless. If Fernando (Alonso) would like to trade places, we’ll see if this is possible – added embittered Webber.”

      So I wonder: does the regulations allow such thing (trading places at the grid), if both drivers agree to it?

    24. I voted it should be on Webber’s car.
      If both wings had broken and there was only one spare, that would be different.
      But this, isn’t quite so nice.

      I find it odd that they would have actually had to remove it from Webber’s car, to put in on Vettel’s.
      Unless Webber didn’t want it.

      But, I think it could also be us getting over excited about what amounts to not much.

    25. MacademiaNut
      10th July 2010, 17:04

      I just hope SV loses his front wing in the first corner tomorrow.

      1. I’m actually hoping for a front wing failure, I think that would be poetic justice.

    26. Do they think we are all fools to belive their statements and reasoning when it is so obvious they favour Vettel?

      It is like they are trying to keep him happy so he will sign with them for longer. Wouldn’t it be ironical if Vettel were to leave RBR after all this favoritism?

      If wishes could be true, “I wish Vettel and RBR lose badly and Webber wins the WDC”. Still a Hami fan but Webber deserves better.

    27. Only good reason can be when Webber had a slight preference for the old wing. Else it was his!

    28. Wow, I’m speechless. I have lost all respect for the Red Bull team. Christian Horner you can not seriously defend this decision.

    29. The question is, would RBR have taken the wing off Vettel’s car to put on Webbers car if the situation was exactly the same.


      RBR would’ve said “That’s unfortunate for Mark, having a failure that’s not his fault,” and left done nothing. But because Vettel is the wunderkind, so he gets given the good parts.

      The RB6 is a fast car that’s filled with niggles, the drivers have to accept their share of bad luck that happens to their cars. If you take parts off Mark’s car to put on Vettels, that’s effectively saying that Mark’s car/race is less important.

      1. “The question is, would RBR have taken the wing off Vettel’s car to put on Webbers car if the situation was exactly the same.


        We don’t actually know that. We can thnik that RBr would prefer Vettel as champion but there isn’t any proof, we don’t know what they would do roles reversed but we can speculate and the speculation alone suggests something uncomfortable about the entire situation there.

    30. grosjeans.rubble
      10th July 2010, 17:26

      Red Bull takes your wings…

    31. Guilherme Teixeira
      10th July 2010, 17:27

      Vettel’s front wing? Webber’s front wing? The way I see it, it is *RBR’s* front wing, and they decide what they want to do with it and who is going to use it if there is only one available. Please remember that this is a team sport, not and individual one, and if the team thinks that giving the front wing to one driver instead of the other will bring them (the team) a advantage at the race, then it has the right to do so. We have seen this happening countless times in the past, and this will not be the last time we will see it. But since an anti-Vettel army has formed since Turkey, it was innevitable that such a decision would attract controversy…

      But now people, just think as a team principal. Forget whom you support, or whom do you think was at fault for the crash or whatever. You have one front wing for two drivers. You give it to the driver who higher on the standings or to the one who is at a lower position? It really seems quite logical to me – I’d give it to the one who is in front on the standings, regardless who was using the front wing on free practice.

      And finally, given how they were closely matched on qualifying, I don’t think this front wing makes much of a difference…

      1. And finally, given how they were closely matched on qualifying, I don’t think this front wing makes much of a difference…

        For sure, the front wing was only giving an advantage of say 0.1 of a second… err… hold on… then that would mean that Webber is on Pole.

        It makes all the difference. RBR suck as a team, I used to rate them highly, now they are the lowest of the low. Simple.

        1. Guilherme Teixeira
          10th July 2010, 18:02

          How do you know that Seb’s wing has a 0.1secs of advantage over Mark’s? I haven’t seen any figures around… do you work with Newey by the way…?

          Now everyting Red Bull does will sound like favouritism towards Vettel. Well, that’s just what the press wanted…

          1. Funnily enough… I have no idea how much of a difference the wing makes. LOL!! You’re response is hilarious!

            I was just using the small amount of time, that 0.1 of a second is, as an example to show how much even a small amount of difference can make.

            1. Guilherme Teixeira
              10th July 2010, 18:38

              Oh, I’m sorry, I misread your first comment.

      2. “You give it to the driver who higher on the standings or to the one who is at a lower position? It really seems quite logical to me – I’d give it to the one who is in front on the standings, regardless who was using the front wing on free practice.”

        And a good part of the reason one is in a lower position than the other is because the other took out the one in a previous race. In fact, the same race that arguably is responsible for the team being behind in both Championships. But he’s still obviously the guy you’d give the wing to, right?

        1. “And a good part of the reason one is in a lower position than the other is because the other took out the one in a previous race. ”

          If you’re referring to Webber than that isn’t true. Webber gained more points on Seb that race by Seb being unable to finish than if they had trundled home in a 1-2

    32. To be fair, they were so far ahead this weekend I doubt it would have mattered so the fair but perhaps stupid route would be neither.

      However, Vettel’s ahead so give it to him. It isn’t perhaps the mroal thing but it is how to win. It’s short sighted though and risks annoying the other driver greatly as well as your own fanbase. It may be worth it in the short term but if this situation isn’t managed right then it’ll harm them more in the long run. For Mark though, I feel sympathetic.

    33. it is clear that Vettel is their long term investment

      pity goes to webber but hope he don’t lose his head on the track tomorrow otherwise Lotus is always there to make he flying without wings

    34. “Mark knows the way we operate as a team. He knows that with that decision there was no malice behind it. There was no manipulation. It was purely that we found ourselves with a single component and, from a team point of view, some days I have to make difficult decisions.” — This is from Christian Horner’s comments. (Taken from autosport)

      Issue here is, why Doesnt VETTEL know the way RBR operate as a team? And Horner, R u sure WEB knows theres wasnt any malice behind it, if not why is he shaming all of you in front of media?

      Also he says ” We found ourselves with a single component”- This doesnt Explain anything?! If you say you have no WINgs left at all, fair enough, but why cant VET use WEB’s older spec wing?

      And point to note , “I have to make difficult decisions” seems too much like a media statement. Instead, he should probably phrase it as ” oh, a decision take took less than a second”.

      Christian Horner is No where near a good team principal or if he wants to be biased towards his driver,i guess he needs to think before he speaks. Great examples of cunning , yet clever principals include Ron Dennis & Jean Todt.

      Well, Horner will throw both RBR championships sooner or later out of their own window. It wont take long before Mclaren & Ferrari Challenges them real soon.

    35. Maybe the teams should be forced to ID all items, as is done with engines, gearboxes and tyres, as belonging to a specific car/driver.

      My opinion on the front wing, is that it doesn’t matter whether it is the driver or his engineer(s) that damage an item, it is still that (sub)team and they, the (sub)team should suffer the consequences.

    36. Webber and Vettel don’t own the cars, their employer does. The two drivers clearly forgot this in Turkey, Webber more so than Vettel, because he, despite being reasonably slower, drove so defensively against his teammate, that they had an accident. I think Horner is just stating a point to the drivers: I’m the Boss – not You! And this message is not being accepted by the 75% majority of the fans on this site. It is perhaps not a smart move, neither from a marketing or team management point of view.

      1. Palle, in Turkwey, why was Webber ordered to turn his engine down & vettel was not? vettel moved into Webber, not the other way around – go watch the replays boy. Maybe RBR should start listening to the fans as CH keeps stating there is no favouritism between their drivers, yet the actions of the team seem to indicate otherwise is costing them a percentage of their fanbase.

    37. My mother once bought my father two ties for Christmas. Later in the day he came downstairs wearing one of the ties. She asked him ‘what’s the matter, don’t you like the other one?’

      This poll is the same pointless question!

      1. Comment of the day!

        1. John Cousins
          10th July 2010, 19:03

          I agree, comment of the day.

    38. Now i know why Ferrari and Mclaren don´t have those kind of problems, Massa and Button can´t even get close to their team mates, they bring home some good points and don´t mess with them, that´s a lesson Red Bull should learn.
      You can´t have 2 drivers fighting for the same spot and favoring one of them. Last time Red Bull went into problem, Mclaren brought home a victory, maybe tomorrow will be Ferrari the beneficiary.
      Maybe it´s time for Webber start doing his bags and surch another team to drive, he will get nothing from this one.
      He must be really p… off (i would be ).

    39. John Cousins
      10th July 2010, 18:26

      Tough one… As I have said before, I am a huge fan of Mark. He’s a no-nonsense mature driver who just does his job well. A real man’s man not a pretty boy/metro-sexual. He has proven to be very very fast and while I think his raw speed may be slightly slower than Seb, his wheel work and general style seems much smoother than his team mate. We have all seen time and time again what happens when Mark moves away from his smooth style and tries to get aggressive. A wise man once said that mechanical sympathy is an important part of any racing driver and perhaps this is the reason for Sebastian’s poor reliability? Of course I have no way of proving this, it is just my opinion but it is for this reason that I believe that Mark should have kepth the wing… He didn’t break his…

      Just a quick question though as I am unclear on one thing… Did Mark qualify with the new wing, or did he just do practise with the new wing?

      1. I think Webber tryed the new wing in practise and didn´t used it in qualifying because it went to Vetell´s

    40. I think Webber should have kept it, poor guy. Let’s hope theres some karmic retribution and Vettel has a similar failure to practice (6)

      1. would be fun to watch if tomorrow Vetel would have the same problem as he had in practise with the new wing.
        It would be the laugh of the day and the big news till next race

    41. Mssr Vettels popularity is certainly waining in the UK. All this single finger saluting at the finish is doing little for his image. I somehow suspect the British fans are going home disappointed after a similar result to last year :-(
      I’m hoping Lewis clips the wing whilst going round the outside of him at the first corner!

    42. Interestingly Keith, James Allen disagrees with you and thinks both drivers should have run the old wing, and includes a quote from Whitmarsh which apparently backs him up:

      Make what you will of that.

      1. I don’t think Whitmarsh is saying in that quote he wouldn’t have run the one remaining wing in the same circumstances. And certainly looking at the situation at McLaren last year – where on more than one occasion they only had one example of a new part and it went to Hamilton – that’s what he practises too. But that situation is different to what happened at Red Bull today. They started off with two wings and one got broken.

        I would add that Whitmarsh is more likely to say what’s most likely to antagonise Red Bull and make them look bad, as they’re their championship rivals. Not that there’s anything wrong with that of course :-)

        1. Of course, I put “apparently” because it might be out of context and James wants it to look like he agrees. And I do agree with you that the fact there were two wings makes it different to the situation that McLaren had last year – and is why is makes me uneasy about Red Bull’s choice.

          Red Bull had their comments about Button and Hamilton blowing up earlier this week, none of them are going to miss an opportunity to mess with each other at this stage :D

        2. Or, Whitmarsh is likely to say what will get Mark Webber to stop by the big silver motorhome to have a glass of McLaren-brand shiraz and talk about McLaren’s equal-treatment policy. I always thought last year that it should have been Webber in that other McLaren and not Button. Webber is a much quicker driver than Button, and he would thrive in the more grown up environment at Woking.

      2. Vettel stance on the value of the new wing is rather telling.

        In the press conference he said:

        “The wing was broken but fortunately we could continue with the same kind of wing. It was the key for this afternoon and as I said, very pleased.”

        and Mark Webber sums it up as follows:
        “I think the team is happy with the result today”

        1. As you say Patrickl, Vettels comments tells us all we need to know. Mark’s reaction confirms the working of the team.

          And Horner worsended the situation again with his comments.

          Where’s Red Bull with PR this year?

        2. I don’t understand the “we” bit in Vettel’s response. It should be I. Or is he referring to the fact his side of the garage comprises everyone in RBR apart from Webber and his engineer?

          1. I suppose so, Mouse.

    43. Hello alltogether,

      RBR lost too many points allready, so it´s obvious that the team has to maximize the performance of their drivers to bring home P1 and P2.
      If Vettel takes more advantage of the new front wing and Webber is not insisting the decision is quite fair to me.

      Just for those Webber Fans who still think of any discrimination:
      Vettel needs more of the teams support as he is the weaker driver … ;)

    44. I think its funny for a couple of reasons, all week Horner/Red Bull/Webber have been banging on about how the mclaren guys wont end up getting on and about how its all smoke and mirrors and it wont last blah blah blah, when the apparently cant even keep there own team happy.

    45. Red bull gives you wings
      .. but Vettel gets first dibs.

      I really hope Webbo beats Seb
      .. with the old front wing
      .. on the chassis Seb rejected.

    46. Its just easy to blame….But Red Bull is a Team and it has to work on having a balance in getting maximum from both the drivers…..They might have given it to Vettel because they knew Webber could do a much better job in getting the car in front with the old Wing….

      1. That’s certainly possible and it’s a resonable point. But if it were the case I expect they’d be wheeling out Webber singing several verses of “I’m happy with what I’ve got”. But that’s not happening…

      2. But if that would have been the case, why would Horner have had to decide anything.

        Compare it to the situation with Lotus bringing new chassis last race. The new one should have been for Heikki, but Trulli had his cracked so he needed a new one.

        The team first asked Heikki about his opinion and he had no problem with it.

        If they had asked Mark, weather he would mind giving it to Vettel, as Mark was doing a better job with the “old” wing compared to Vettel, and this would be the best solution, Mark would have hardly felt as robbed as he does now.

        Also compare Withmarsh telling he still has bad feelings about treating Heikki differently last year ( Sometimes it is better to take the toys from both kids to keep the peace and save the family harmony.

    47. It wasn’t fair towards Webber. And what kind of argument is that the wing didn’t give that big gain? Why switch it to Vettel’s car then? Besides, Webber said in an interview yesterday that new wing gives around 0,1s in performance which in the end was the difference between the pole and the second position.

    48. Presumably that front wing on vettels car is the only one left?

      So it would be pretty funny if mark just, accidentally knocks it off going into copse so seb has to pit and get an old wing.

      1. He’ll have to get in front of him to do that…

      2. I think Webber couldn’t care less for Vettels front wing if he gets to be in front of him at copse.

        He will want to just drive away and know that Vettel running second might get cought by Alonso and Hamilton during the race.

    49. Maybe the new front wing has a small fault/defect OR brings so much downforce its rips itself off like in practice during the race! LOL.

    50. michael mair
      10th July 2010, 19:46

      shows what was clear after turkey, when webber had to shoulder half the blame for vettels mistake.SV is the blue eyed boy whether horner admits it or not. his reasoning to EJ was weak at best, maybe if it was the last race of the season and vettel had a shot at the title,then you could justify it. it will do nothing for team spirit thats a certainty

    51. I believe Webber SHOULD have retained his front wing, however, didn’t Seb have a new chassis? Assuming that it wasn’t identical to Webber’s, I can understand wanting to try all of the new parts together. But then, nobody from the Red Bull camp has mentioned THAT…

      1. No the chassis will be homologated under the rules and built to the same specification. Apparently the chassis Webber is using now is the one Vettel used until a couple of races ago, and has been repaired since then.

        1. So instead of “repairing” it for Seb, they give him a new one and then offload it to Mark. Egh. Too complex for my brain to handle. I’m not cut out for this team boss reasoning…

    52. Totally disgusting.

      Total Bias, no longer any doubt, you could maybe argue there wasn’t before this, but now it is obvious there is.

      I honestly hope Vettels wing fails again (safely).

      RBR will then get what they deserve.

      Come on Webber win this one.

      No respect for RBR from now on.

    53. If there was no time benefit to the new front wing, why bother introducing it at all?

    54. Red Bull will regret this disgraceful treatment they are dishing out to Webber. Credit to the man, he has taken it well. What a shame, tho – i hope Vettel fails to complete the race – and webber does well in it.

    55. fantastic :)
      another thing to hate abour rbr.
      I will pray for DNF for vet tomorrow, lol

    56. Sarcastic mode on.
      Surprising to see the Vettel bashing here, after all the uproar when Hamilton was being criticised for his actions or luck (from which ever side it came from). Oh wait, RBR are is to blame for being a Vettel-fan and not a Webber-fan. I wonder if McLaren also favour Button over Hamilton during the times Button won by magnificent strategic decisions. For some reason a former GB-discomfort comes to mind from the 1994-95 era. Don’t know why, though.
      Sarcastic mode off.
      Everyone have a great race tomorrow and enjoy the finals of the World Cup as well.

    57. Mark Webber is furious because he had to use the old front wing after the team gave his to Vettel.

      so there you have it.

      Mark is not happy about Vettel getting his new wing…

      Vettels new wing broke, and now he has Marks one…

      so those that thought it was ok for Mark to give it up and that Horner was right to take it off him with no consequences to follow, are going to see some in fighting over this i bet…
      give it to em Mark.

    58. This is the Austrian flexing his muscles. It clear this teams want vettell to win and will do what ever it takes. Webber is getting screwed plain and simple. Interesting to see what happens tommorrow when the wing breaks tommorrow, what wing will they put on.

      People will compare things with Schumi and Rubens at Ferrari but the reality is Schumi dominated Rubens, Vettel has not dominated webber it has been even all year. I got this funny feeling Mr Vettel will be pushed wide tommorro if webber get a run on him.

    59. The wing, as any other part of the car, is neither Vettel’s nor Webber’s. It is the team’s. I believed in this case they assessed the situation correctly. We are in the middle of the season and one of their drivers is much better positioned to compete for the championship. They have thrown all their resources towards winning this WDC. They have a driver (Webber) who is fast, inconsistent, and not a good race manager (to put it another way, makes silly errors and is hot-headed). They have another driver (Vettel) who is really fast, more consistent and a fair race manager (cool-headed, does not make silly mistakes, or at least not as many). Apparently, we have reached the point in the season where the team has made a decision as to who the #1 driver is, which is Vettel. Webber simply can’t be trusted. He crashed w/ Vettel 2 races ago, then crashed out of the last race, and the fault was all his. If you are going for that one precious WDC, for which you have thrown everything at it, and the kitchen sink, it makes every sense to give all the tools to the driver that can deliver the championship.

      1. About the wing, you are right, it is owned by the team.

        But stating vettel is much better positioned in the WDC when he got in front of Webber only after Webber flew off the track in Valencia and they have been as close as possible this year.

        About the mistakes and inconsistency, i see it with both, and Vettel’s race management and cool headedness is not something i see being there. Vettel crashed himself out and threw away a beautifull 1-2 in Turkey. And the team itself has made the most mistakes during pitstops and with tactics.

    60. Mark Webber needs to man up a little. Sure, Vettel has a new front wing, but he’s only two tenths of a second behind Vettel. That might be because of a different front wing, but it also might be because Webber missed an apex.

      Harden up, princess!

      1. Jhonnie Siggie
        11th July 2010, 1:59

        Would you be saying that if they took a part off your car?

        1. It depends. Mark Webber is clearly arrogant enough to assume that the difference in his time and Vettel’s is all because of the front wing. If he’s really so upset about starting on the bad side of the circuit, then perhaps he should change his gearbox and get himself demoted to seventh.

          1. hey PM, red bull have already done that to MW in Canada. It’s the principle of equal treatment to the drivers as oft stated by Ch that’s causing this to be an issue. The parts where on MW’s car – SV suffered a failure of his part – tough luck SV. No instead they have to cuddle SV and give him the new part so he doesn’t do his cry baby act. Sv needs to “harden up”

            1. Um, I don’t think Red Bull deliberately gave Webber a penalty in Montreal. If they did, it certainly backfired, considering that Webber spent most of the race out front.

      2. lol you are a complete jerk, PM.

        You are the biggest coward I know with the crap you say about Webber on the internet.

        1. What have you been smoking Prisoner Monkeys? I wanna feel your kind of delusion in life just once hahahaha :-)

        2. You are the biggest coward I know with the crap you say about Webber on the internet.

          Why, because I don’t support Webber? Because I’m not some paragon of righteousness, defending those who have been wronged by Christian Horner? Yeah, that’s a great argument you’ve got there. I could say the same thing about you: you’re a jerk because you don’t like whatever driver it is that you don’t like. If you’d read some of the other stuff that has come out, Christian Horner has revealed that Webber’s chassis has little advantages of its own: like a different floor, and a lighter weight.

          I’m sorry, but saying that I don’t think Webber is such a good driver that he makes Ayrton Senna look like Sakon Yamamoto does not make me a coward. I refused to be brainwashed by the Australian commentators idiots.

          1. ah, so more tall poppy syndrome then PM? Webber chassis is lighter because he is heavier than vettel & his chassis was made lighter so the combined car driver weight is closer tot he minimum weight. Pretty poor form to castigate the guy because the Australian commentators are rubbish. They have been for years both in domestic racing and now that they comment on the international races as well. Pity Will Hagen (Spelling?) & co are still not commentating, then you would receive informative and intelligent commentary

            1. Oh, I never liked Webber before the commentators got a hold of him. They just made it worse. And if James Allen can turn an entire nation against Lewis Hamilton with his obsessive fixations, surely Rust, McConville/Barid and Beattie can turn one person against Webber.

    61. Flash forward to Abu Dhabi and Webber loses the title by 7 points. If that happens, that’ll be the real answer.

      But I feel Webber should have had it. It was his, after all.

      1. If that happens, that’ll be the real answer.

        It will be impossible to prove. For all we know, Webber losing the title by seven points was the byproduct of his Valencia backflip.

        1. I don’t think that Webber loosing the championship will have anything to do about his Valencia backflip. There could be many reasons but the one in Silverstone will be one.

          1. Actually, there’s dozens of reasons as to why, unless you can somehow prove that Mark Webber carrying the new wing will guarantee him a championship – which you can’t do, since it’s impossible to prove.

            1. It is the principal of it. Why dont you think about it before you type. I read a lot of your posts and rarely agree with anything you say.

            2. @ Simon

              Sorry mate but are you talking to me?

            3. It is the principal of it. Why dont you think about it before you type.

              Oh, I think plenty about it. Red Bull have the right to distribute parts as they see fit. They have to divide their resources in a way that suits them best. If that means favouring one driver who they feel stands a better chance at victory, so be it. Sticking to principles doesn’t win World Championships. Demanding that a team stick to their righteousness even if it might cost them a championship is foolish.

          2. No wasiF1, not you, sorry.

            it was directed at Prisonermonkey. but i feel bad about saying it now. I have had a beer and chilled out a little. Sorry PM.

    62. I think there’s too many variables to look at to make a fair opinion in my eyes. How would we see it if Webber had pole? Did Mark make a slight mistake somewhere that cost him a fraction of a second? Is there any solid evidence, outside of pole position for VET (which could have been due to a WEB mistake), that the wing is a better piece of equipment for the car? After all it did fail in P3.

      Seems to me a mountain is being made out of a mole hill. If VET was a half second faster maybe I could see a reason to complain. It’s all for the benefit of the team, let’s see how the race turns out before we cast judgement.

      1. Forget IF the wing was definately faster or not, its the principle. I’m 100% confident in saying that if the whole issue was reversed (drivers points included) Webber would still NOT get the “new” front wing off Vettel’s car if he had broken his own in practice.

        That says it all really.

    63. After the Webber/Vettel ‘racing incident’ and the aftermath, I was quite literally sickened by the lies and spin Red Bull used to cover Vettel and blame Mark.

      However, I really, REALLY, wanted to believe that was just a bad week, and everyone had pulled their socks up.

      Sadly, after the wing incident, the fact that Webber almost never runs second in Q3, then, reading the post-race conference, seeing the quite specific questions by journo re: ‘favouritism’ and the rather ambiguous answers by Vettel and non-participation by Mark really.. It’s getting pretty hard to deny.

      So I guess I have to just now accept the fact the team has a favourite and hope that Mark can do the best he can with what he’s got. As he has for his whole entire career.

      At least he’s in the #2 car in the #1 team. Rather than the #1 car in the #??? team.

      I’m proud of the Aussie.

    64. Jhonnie Siggie
      11th July 2010, 1:53

      I think Christian Horner realizes that the chances of Webber beating Vettel over a long season are slim, therefore, why not put a finger on the scale early on to hasten the eventual outcome. At least with this new approach, they have a better chance of securing the WDC. Nobody seems to want to talk publicly about the 802 lbs elephant in the room; Webber makes way too many mistakes to win the title. The same is true in Mclaren; the principals fully expect Lewis to be ahead every year that he is together with Jenson but they will never admit to that.

      Having said that, what they have done to Webber is clearly unfair. I would love to see Webber stay besides Vettel like a madman going into the first few turns and not give an inch. He should force the youth to blink by risking both of their cars. That should send a message to that Dr. HellMutt at RB that Mark is not to be messed with.

      1. You’re right Jhonnie, we all like to rabbit on about equality this and equality that because we see F1 as a sport and as such want a level playing field e.t.c. But F1 is not 99% sport and 1% business, it’s 51% sport and 49% business (bad analogy I know but work with me here :-) Anyway, they have to play the odds and the powers that be know that, ceteris parabis, Vettel in the long run is more likely to win a given championship than Webber just as Hamilton is morely like to win over Button as Alonso is more likely to win over Massa.

        Championships whether it be the WDC or the WCC mean money! And teams will do whatever is necessary to increase their chances to win one or both of them.

        I know it’s often not very sportsmanlike but to me it’s like constantly complaining about the rain. Sometimes it rains, you can’t control it, it’ll always be there and when it does there’s no point in complaining about it cause it’s never going to change.

        p.s. Sorry about my really crap analogies :-)

      2. I dont think either of the RBR drivers can be singled out for making too many errors.. Vet has done a lot of stupid things.

        1. yep, i consider him as one of the less intelligent drivers :) (dont want to use “most stupid”)

      3. Umar Farooq Khawaja
        12th July 2010, 20:26

        If anything, it is Vettel that makes mistakes, not Webber.

        I am rooting for Webber to win this year.

    65. I just hope Vettel needs to pit and change the front wing during the race. Oh, and I hope Webber doesn’t let it get to him, and make a total mess of everything like in Valencia.

    66. I don’t know why people voted Vettel? He had his toys & if they are destroyed many not be for his reason then why will Webber pay for that??

      Once again bad judgment from Red Bull. I really think that if Red Bull do loose their championship this season then it will be because of their management other than the drivers.

    67. FIA should demand the RBR engine mapping and data for the last race start lap and put them on notice that they will also be seeking it for this race.

    68. I wonder how many people would be complaining if the same thing happened between Alonso and Hamilton (when they were teammates) and the wing went to Hamilton (which would’ve happened).. Hmm..

      1. Good Point.
        I completely agree. ITs the Media coverage

        Its shocking to listen to BBC commentary… They are not far off from ITV’s coverage..
        I look stupid… and a bit annoying as well when they keep on going after MS

    69. meh, I think web will/should just get on with it and do the racing on the track, he has said on another website that he made a mistake on his second flying lap and that is the reason he’s in 2nd, he admitted a mistake. As for the wing, id like to see it suffer the same failure as it did in practise…just desserts and all…but really they’re all big boys, mark has an extremely quick car under him, possibly the fastest he will have, provided newey doesn’t come up with another brilliant incarnation next season, he should make the most of it, if that be second on the day then be happy that u’ve beaten 22 other guys going for the same position. Im all for a bit of competition between team mates, but i’m getting a little sick of seeing a big sour face on the podium all the time, whether it be web or vet, or ham. There are 22 other guys out there that would be absolutely beaming at the chance to be standing on the podium! There is half a season left, 250 points available to any one driver, 1010 points altogether, so there is still a long way to go… I find some of Horner’s comments a little un-thought out, but he is still finding his feet with a world championship contending team, and it shows.

    70. also, the ‘winglets’ that have been moved in the newest RBR front wing from the tip of the nose cone to lower down behind the main wing, i see they are standard across the board some i assume they are some sort of data/telemetry devices? Can anyone tell me what they do/are?

    71. On the subject of Mark Webber getting Sebastian Vettel’s cast-offs, I’m right in thinking that now that Seb is done with her, Mark is now riding Luscious Liz?

      1. Just as Vettel is driving Webbers cast off from Bahrain. I doubt very much whether RBR would let a structurally unsound monococh be raced.

        1. Everyone keeps saying its liz, but I thought it was “Randy Mandy” that MW is driving now???

          1. Ah yes perhaps it is Mandy he is riding.

    72. Let’s not forget that throughout this year Webber sticks cars into walls and other cars with gay abandon each weekend. If there is a marginal racing incident going on and Webber is involved then the chances are he will end up crashing, and most likely totalling his car / race.

      The reason Webber had to scratch around for a chassis this weekend is because he drove into the back of Heikki at the last race. Where I come from if you go into the back of another car you are at fault – regardless of the actions of the other driver. Let’s cast our minds back to the Senna / Mansell days, and Monaco in particular, where it was common practice to brake test your opponent.

      So, if I was in Horner’s position, and I took a look at my two drivers, I think I’d give new components to Vettel / favour him, simply because the only time he seems to stop is when things break. Not when he collides with other drivers.

    73. Yes, that’s right, with gay abandon Webber puts his car in the wall each and every week. Remember in Monaco where he hit nearly every one on the track, or how about the next week, when not content with hitting competitors on the track, he started driving over their pit crews as well. Nice comments. I’d like to see you react to being brake tested at 300km/h.

      1. Oh, come on – Kovalainen didn’t brake-test Webber. Why on earth would he?

        1. I wasn’t saying he did, the guy I was replying to was inferring it. I do think Web was caught out by the early braking point of the Lotus, was a messy incident, just thankful that no one was seriously injured.

        2. I agree with you. I don’t think for a minute that Kovalainen brake tested Webber. The point I was making was that *regardless* of what the driver in-front of you does, if you go into the back of another car then you must take the majority of the blame.

      2. There is a huge difference between leading a race for the entire time, as Mark did in Monaco. And actually mixing it up with other drivers under pressure.

        This is one of the reasons I am not a fan of Webber, or Massa for that matter. Webber crashes into anything he is battling with, it seems. And Massa moans about being balked by other drivers, and there not being any overtaking opportunities on race tracks when he is the guy least able to overtake in F1 and most likely to balk other drivers. Webber did a great job at Monaco, just as Massa did a couple of years ago at Valencia. But both did a great job from the front. They are no good mixing it up with other drivers.

        Take a look at the season and check out how many times Vettel has written off a car and a race by his own actions, and how many times Webber has. That’s my point. In fact the one occasion Vettel has written off his race was, guess what, when he and Webber came together!

        It’s a very simple decision for Horner.

        Who is in the lead in the Championship?
        Who was the fastest up to that point?
        Who crashes less?

        Vettel comes up as the answer for all three.

    74. Such BS… Ive been waiting 10 years for Webster to have the equipment to have a crack at the crown & now his own team screwing him over… Lets not forget Webster was given Vets old chassis that was “apparently” broken & the cause of his bad results… Again would Vets be given an old chassis of Websters… No chance. REDBALLS!

      1. You conveniently forget that Webber broke his own chassis the race before! Had he not done that by driving into the back of another car he might have not had to use Vettel’s old one. ;)

    75. What about when Red Bull made Vettel wait in line to pit behind Webber in China? And Vettel was ahead in points at that time. Or are we ignoring inconvenient facts at this point?

      Shouldn’t you be wasting your energy on the “conserve fuel” calls that are mysteriously made when team mates are battling? It is not against the rules to send one driver out in better equipment. It IS against the rules to use team orders to coordinate the order of a finish. These calls are being made and are a far larger controversy than equipment bias.

    76. Well its not different than last year when Hamilton got the new upgrades and Hekki was left back. Why did the media not a big thing out of that.
      All I am trying to say why do we look at situations in a different manner when it is a British driver.

      1. @AK: Did McLaren unbolt the upgrades from Heikki’s car and fit them onto LH’s? A bit of perspective is in order.

        1. THe point i was trying to make it that favoritism happens in every top f1 team, why is it attacked in a different manner depending on the driver. I am not trying to justify what Redbull have done.

        2. I don’t think its to do with whether a driver is British or not. Lewis tried out upgrades when Heikki didn’t because, arguably, he is the better driver. He showed that in 08. He probably gets to grips with them better too. But as well he had more points in 09 (correct me if I’m wrong). Plus then, I think Mclaren knew they weren’t going to be vying for either championship anymore so it was less important anyway.
          Although saying that, it still is a bit unfair. If Ferrari weren’t in the championship hunt anymore I wouldn’t expect them to give Alonso priority of testing parts out over Felipe.

          1. YES It doesn’t matter i the driver is British or not to the Team, there only interest is who is going to get them championship, sponsorship, bottom line revenue.
            its the media that i meant treats the situation differently depending on the driver.
            I used to hate Ferrari during MS days due to favouritism. But looking at the way the media is bent on showing him down and keep attacking him in the name of “Objective Reporting”. I feel sorry for the guy and feel the need to support him
            On the other hand… I can see Hamilton is a gr8 talent and have nothing against him, but with the media just going on about Hamilton all the time … can’t get myself to support him

        3. Perspective is right. You’re really searching for a crime here. You are just exposing your knowledge of the sport by claiming parts never swap between cars.

    77. Ak,

      Whilst I agree there is favouritism in other teams, this is usually for the driver who is much higher in points than his team mate. It is evident after Turkey and yesterday’s wing decision, RB clearly favours Vettel, which, in my opinion is totally unjustified because both drivers are very close in points and Vettel lost his wing, so he should suffer the consequences. If one messes up, it is not right for another to pay the penalty. I hope there’s poetic justice and the new wing falls off. Also, Christian Horner is full of bull and is really at home at Red Bull. Like last year, they will mess up and will not win this year’s championship!

    78. Just saw an interview with Mark post-quali and he gave an explanation about how Seb got his front wing. Yes it was an explanation ,but no he didn’t hide the fact that he was unhappy with the situation, you could read it on his face. He later said he’d spoken to Mark Waugh (ex aussie cricket captn) who told him ‘Aussies perform well when we are the underdogs’ and Mark agreed.

    79. YES! this is what is meant by what goes around comes around. Taking Webber’s wing probably had cursed VET.WOOT. I LOVE THAT MAN. FIRST TO LAST WITHIN 1 LAP

      1. Shouldn’t the team be cursed since it was a team decision? Or are you implying that Vettel made the decision to take Webber’s wing?

      2. Yeah some wishes are answered :)
        And what an irony, Vettel’s race ruined by … a front wing :)

    80. Hahaha, hmm, im trying to imply that well, this is an irony,.. Really, and in a way, they are cursed ain’t they? lost a 1-2, and lost chance to close gap to Mclaren when they are supposedly weak. So, can you imagine what will happen if lets say Mclaren gets the diffuser package and exhaust pipes done by germany? RED BULL will really face a bigger challenge from MCLAREN. So,

      once again. classic theory of RBR and Christian Horner Failing to captialize on their maximum potential.

    81. Divine justice… :):):):):)

    82. webber should just stop whining.

      1. I think you mean Webber should just stop winning – certainly seems to be what Red Bull want.

        How many more times can RB underestimate Webber? We know Dr Marko wants his golden boy to win, but is he really prepared to cost the team the constructors titles, and potentially the drivers, with stupid decisions. Oh well, I guess this means Webber will now be favoured as he is leading Vettel. *coughs*

      2. Stop saying that all the time. What about justice? why can not the people complain when things are not right?

        What kind of thing dou you have inside your head to think that when somebody hurts you, you should shut up and be prepared for another hit?

        You have to think about why the pilots that are allways whining are experienced pilots and why those who have benefits are silly and unexperienced boys.

    83. I think Webber should have kept the front wing.

      When I first heard that they ran different front wings in qualifying because they only had one available, I thought someone has to have it and it was reasonable to choose Vettel.

      However when I found out that Red Bull had actually taken the front wing off of Webber’s car to put on Vettel’s car after his had failed in FP3, it changed my opinion.

      Only having an update available for one driver is something that happens in F1, but to take the update off of one driver to give to the other driver when they are so close in the championship does come across a bit as favouritism.

    84. I have removed the Vettel wallpaper photo on my iPhone and have replaced it with one of Webber. That is all.

    85. @F1withMySon – that’s gold

      Being an Aussie, I’m biased, but a few things have been standing out to me.

      1. Webber being labelled a whinger – While I think he’s been vocal, for sure, I can’t see any driver acting any differently after the series of hits he’s taken. And, if someone took my wing, that was worth a 10th or so, and I was out-qualified by that much, I’d do my nut. Totally. I’ve seen Alonso look like an Italian soccer player over all sorts of things – imagine what he’d be like if someone pinched his new wing!

      2. Re: ‘#1, #2’ driver situation. I just read that Webber earns 5 million pounds, Vettel 10 million. Well, there’s a ROI demanded from the situation and right there I see the internal RB need to promote Vettel. And in my mind, Webber will never rise about a team’s ‘lesser’ investment in him to over take a ‘bigger’ investment. I think it sucks, but you can’t deny the dollars.

      The fact that Mark is a very good driver is the problem. Ironically, and it just got me going to see Horner all like “Mark should be grateful we’ve given him such a fast car at all” – heck, Mark’s been there at RB for how many years trying to build that team???

      Now, reading that Vettel’s only response so far is, “I have my own opinion but that’s for myself”. Pretty poor when he’s the one who was gifted the wing and has nothing to say. He could have even said, ‘It must have been hard for Mark but the data showed not a big difference and….’ ok, now that I think about it, there’s little he could have said to make that situation right. Fair call keeping his mouth shut. Anything he says will look condescending, trite and only make the situation worse.

      All I can hope is that Mark keeps playing hard ball and mind tight and doesn’t throw any races and I think he could be a WC. Unless RB does go ahead and give him that Punto.

    86. This is yet again the wonder kid getting whatever he wants.
      The argument that he is in front in the World Championship is simply nonsense. He is only in front of Webber because his petulance cost Webber a win and Red Bull lots of points in Turkey.
      The fact of the matter – Webber proved he is the better driver by winning the race easily while Vettel floundered.
      Vettel might be young and talented – but if he keeps thinking he is bigger than the sport, and Red Bull keep treating him as though he is, I think it will all backfire for them.
      Red Bull have a very special competitor in Webber and should start to treat him with the respect he is due.

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