Webber wins but team tensions hit new high (Red Bull race review)

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Red Bull began the weekend trying to put psychological pressure on McLaren’s drivers, saying the friendly relationship between Lewis Hamilton and Jenson Button is purely for show.

Maybe it is, but there’s no hiding the growing animosity within the Red Bull camp as the team again found themselves accused of favouring Sebastian Vettel over Mark Webber.

Sebastian VettelMark Webber
Qualifying position12
Qualifying time comparison (Q3)1’29.615 (-0.143)1’29.758
Race position71
Average race lap1’38.364 (+0.706)1’37.658
Pit stops11

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Sebastian Vettel

The controversy over Vettel being given a new front wing that had been taken off Webber’s car has been covered extensively in earlier articles.

And although the wound which destroyed Vettel’s race was inflicted not by Webber, but by the front wing of Lewis Hamilton’s car, it came as Vettel was straining to stay alongside his team mate who had out-accelerated him into the first corner.

A slow return to the pits for a new tyre condemned Vettel to finishing outside the points. His race was saved by the safety car, which cut his 83-second deficit to the leader to just ten.

He picked cars off quickly, including Felipe Massa at Club, then the likes of Jaime Alguersuari, Vitaly Petrov and Nico Hulkenberg who were less well-equipped to defend.

It took him ten laps to find a way past Adrian Sutil, finally barging his way down the inside at The Loop on the penultimate lap to salvage six points for seventh place.

Compare Sebastian Vettel’s form against his team mate in 2010

Mark Webber

Vettel squeezed Webber hard as the Australian made the best start but Webber said afterwards it hadn’t been a concern: “[There was] plenty of room, you could drive a bus down the middle.”

From then on his race was quite straightforward. He pulled away from Hamilton seemingly at will, only coming under pressure during the restart.

Despite having carried the day he had more sharp words for his team afterwards, accusingly describing his performance as “not bad for a number two”. Christian Horner replied “You can smile now”.

It’s going to take more than a cheesy PR photo to sort this one out. Despite having a 0.8s margin over their rivals in qualifying, Red Bull only reduced McLaren’s constructors’ championship lead by a single point.

Compare Mark Webber’s form against his team mate in 2010

2010 British Grand Prix

    Browse all 2010 British Grand Prix articles

    Image (C) Red Bull/Getty images

    Author information

    Keith Collantine
    Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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    149 comments on “Webber wins but team tensions hit new high (Red Bull race review)”

    1. Before this season started, I never thought Vettel would be the Red Bull driver faltering under pressure.

      Horner’s favoritism towards Vettel is pretty blatant. He was rejoicing Vettel’s victory in Valencia last week, without even mentioning the the loss of points, and risk of injury, caused by the Webber crash. This weekend he didn’t seem too thrilled with the victory, in spite of both the Red Bulls finishing in the points.

      1. Cunning Stunt 8
        12th July 2010, 4:15

        You can really see the joy and jubilation on his face:


        1. Tom M in Australia
          12th July 2010, 4:50

          lol! look at Horner in that photo!

        2. lol. this picture is priceless. look at Vettel’s fake smile :D

        3. No Vettel in the picture?

          1. He is there. Look for a white t-shirt on the right hand side.

            1. Cunning Stunt 8
              12th July 2010, 6:09

              “Webber’s mechanics were said to have removed the ‘old’ front wing that Webber had been forced to race with and waved it at Vettel’s side of the garage”


              There will surely be tears from this. I hope they aren’t Webber’s.

        4. You can almost tell who are part of Webber’s crew and who are on Vettel’s…

          1. Yeah, which is a bit ridiculous, I mean, you always expect the few idiots who aren’t quite aware the photo’s being taken, but there are quick a lot who seem less than ecstatic.

          2. Including Horner! There’s a photo I can’t find now of Webber staring at Vettel defiantly after the race – even more intriguing though is the expression of Webber’s mechanics, almost taunting Vettel. Really bad internal vibes there!

            1. Who cares? Won’t this just make for more racing and less team orders? I actually like Red Bull now simply because the team is going to race. Most teams don’t race. Unless you are unlucky enough to be teamed with Alonso who will pull off any d!c7 move whenever. I’m also pretty sure its unsafe to be next to Hamilton regardless of whether you are his teammate or not!
              Go Red Bull! Keep racing!

      2. I didn’t think we would have to see the drivers competing in the garage, I was looking forward to them competing on the track again. This situation has been bought about mostly by the actions of the TEAM causing a division. I am a Vettel fan and I am embarrassed by the obvious favouritism, which ironically seems to result in Vettel thinking he’s invincible and making him careless.

    2. Hamilton will surely win this year even without having the fastest car, if he starts most races in third place with the two red bulls ahead of him. This way, he will get relatively easy second places with Webber and Vettel alternating the 1st place (and the last), which will finally kill the aspirations of both drivers for this year’s championship (a constant 2nd place is better than an alternating 1st and 7th, etc…)!

      1. Yep , I agree . Treating Webber like 2nd class to Vettel is one thing , but at the cost of many valuable points already lost is another. McLaren will have the last laugh on them even while having a slower car for most of the season.

    3. I genuinely hope Webber wins the title this year. I didn’t think of him much last year and for the first four races this year – Australia is the best example why. However, since Spain he seems to equal Vettel in terms of pace, but beats him in character hands down. Finally, Turkey and Britain made him one of my favourite drivers. Vettel, the driver I liked in Monza 2008 on the other hand, is now my least favourite…

      1. *didn’t think much of him last year

        1. You said it, brother. Totally agree.

      2. I’ve gained alot of respect for Webber over this year.

        and i think his team radio comments shouldn’t be looked at so seriously.

    4. I think you summed it up well Keith.

      “It’s going to take more than a cheesy PR photo to sort this one out.”

      Hat’s off to Mark for putting his head down and getting on with the job of winning!

    5. Just wondering if Vettel is capable of overtaking someone other than a backmarker without barging into the car ahead?

      I feel bad for Sutil, who did a great job of clean defensive driving for the last 10 laps only to be punted aside by Vettel.

      Vettel is clearly a fast driver, but his racecraft leaves a lot to be desired.

      1. Charles Carroll
        12th July 2010, 4:58

        I don’t know. I kind of like the fact that he is dangerous and will do whatever it takes to get past.

        Maybe that is the U.S. influence on me (NASCAR country), but I like a driver who is willing to risk it all to win. It takes courage, and he seems to have it.

        1. Courage? If you have to tap someone out of the way to gain a place it isn’t courage, its called being spineless. How would he like the same treatment in return?

          1. @Aussie Fan

            I agree, Vettel is showing more and more signs of being the new schumacher (not in skill but in arrogance and filthy tactics) It is one thing to be risky and pushing to the edge like Hamilton and Alonso do to often great effect, but it is something else completely to fight dirty when lives are at stake. I am completely amazed that Vettel has not been handed at least a reprimand for purposely hitting Sutil (did you see sutils car jolt!). We have seen him consistently trying to push people off track, into garages and into walls and at some point he is going to hurt someone. He claims to have got a bad start due to the clutch but it looked to me that he got off pretty much the same time as webber. His problem was that webber went straight while vettel aimed straight across the track to squeeze webber against the wall, Vettel therefore had to travel further to the first corner and ultimately lost out. If he stopped being so arrogant perhaps he would be doing better than he is.

          2. Charles Carroll
            12th July 2010, 14:11

            I’m not sure about that. I guess we just have different takes on it.

            1. Have you noticed that drivers who come through the ranks being labled as the “new …” or “baby …” or the next …” often strugle to live up to the expectation. Vettel is quickly falling into those shoes.

              ralf schumacher and j vil come to mind

    6. I am an Australian and Mark Webber’s ‘sour’ attitude over the past few grand prix’s has been extremely embarrassing, right down too the victory cheer when he hopped out of the car and was on the podium. He played dirty tactics against Vettel, his own team mate and now we will most likely continue too see this attitude through out the season.

      Mark Webber and Sebastian Vettel are the ‘new’ Lewis Hamilton and Fernando Alonso team mates, they are in the quickest cars but they will continue to have disagreements on the track and off the track resulting in neither of them will win the drivers or constructors championship.

      Personally I hope that Mark spits the dummy and breaks his contract, moving to Renault to replace Petrov, allowing the Australian Reserve driver, Daniel Riacarrdo, or Kimi Raikkonen to race with Sebastian Vettel at RedBull.

      1. “dirty tactics”..??? You can only be referring to the opening corner of the grand prix in which Webber had every right to dictate his line as he had track position.. In my opinion Vettel put both cars in danger trying to force the issue when he had clearly been passed and it was contact with Hamilton, not Webber, that ultimately caused Vettel to go off the track..

        1. I couldn´t agree more studi06, I never saw “dirty tactics” on Webber. If anybody would be i his place, will do the same: Mark isn´t very young, and chances to have again a world championship winning car may not arise again. In that point he is fighting fairly for that crown, and he have force to front his team and team mate in order to achive his championship goal. When 2010 season started I wanted Vettel to become champion; but race after race Mark won my favour… I hope he becomes 2010 champion. Then he can jump to Renault or do anything else, I will not matter that much after joining Black Jack Brabham as second Aussie champ.

          1. Third Aussie Chanp, you’ve forgotten Alan Jones

            1. I meant to say “champ” not ‘chanp’

          2. Yer Yer Yer Yer Yer! To all the comments in this reply. Jay M – Im Australian too and i dont see where you are coming from at all. Good on Webber for committing to a line and managing to make it stick. Good on Webber for out doing Vettel with the cr@p wing. Good on him for all of it. He’s is doing it harder that what appears on the surface. Could you imagine going to work and EVERYONE working against you?! My thought is you would struggle. Not win a GP like Mark just. Give him a break hey?

          3. vettel had a greater chance of passing after T1 if he sat behind webber, not only would he blocked hamiton from getting so deep had a better exit and not placed himself in a bad track possition(again) and made himself so vulnerable on the corner exit…
            simple fact not of my own judgemnt but as proven examples has displaced that Vettel has very poor race craft at times and add to that, huge brain fades under pressure, this will only improve as he matures.

            He seemingly has little respect for his competitor safety at times, and his scare campaign and tactics dont work, no one is fooled.

      2. im a Kiwi and certainly think Mark Webber is doing quite well considering the controversy he has to race under.
        ive a funny feeling that its your commentators that are putting you off Mark, just going from what ive heard others say.
        in NZ we have the same commentators as the Brits and they certainly dont put you off Mark.

        1. Cunning Stunt 8
          12th July 2010, 4:25

          Oh Eric I think I might move to New Zealand. I’m starting to get really sick of the ONE commentators and I love the BBC ones.

          But yeah Jay M I’m Australian and I don’t see where you’re coming from. This is most likely Webber’s last and best chance at winning the title and yes speaking out now may make the team even more prone to favouring Vettel, but he is at the end of his career and obviously would rather retire than be treated unfairly.

      3. I am Australian and am embarassed that we have people like you Jay M in our country.

        1. same, this guy and Prisoner Monkey (sp).

      4. Are we watching the same GPs?

      5. He played dirty tactics against Vettel

        I don’t think you can calling overtaking someone “dirty tactics”.

        1. Yeah, ill agree, there is not nothing dirty tactics… if u smart out the other team! ure tactic is stronger and ure on top!

      6. @Jay M

        I am not the biggest Webber fan (I think he can moan a bit too much and also is a little too wreckless). However I think he has been doing your country proud in this volatile situation. Blamed for Vettel crashing into him, treated as second class, clearly not supported by those high up in red bull and having to donate parts of his car to his team mate even though they are both neck and neck in the championship. I am surprised he has not knocked someone out! He has shown again and again what British motorsport fans like to see and that is triumph in the face of adversity. It is the same reason that Hamiltons World championship was so loved here as every barrier the FIA put up was smashed down. Arguably Webbers problem is even worse as it is his own team putting the barriers up!

        As for dirty tactics, I am not sure you could have watched the same race as me as I watched Vettel aim straight for webber in an attempt to squeeze him into the wall. Webber as a result of going straight rather than diagonally got to the corner first and held his line as he was entitled to. Vettel then went on to hit literally barge Sutil out of the way on the last lap (something I am amazed he did not get a penalty for).

      7. Vettel almost threatened/pushed Webber into the pit wall. How was Webber sticking to his line a dirty tactic?

        Come on, the guy did absolutely nothing wrong.

        It was Vettel’s mistake trying to keep a front wheel in with Webber and then fly off track.

        1. From the onboard from Hamilton’s car it looked like Vettel’s lunge on Webber at the start was at least as bad as the one that Webber pulled on Barrichello in last year’s German race, which he got a penalty for.

    7. You are an Australian are you not?
      Then would you offer the same opinion of Mark Webber if he was German and Sebastian Vettel was Australian? Patriotic perspectives should not be a factor.

      By “Dirty Tactics” I am referring to the mind games that and emotional tension, when Sebastian got pole not once did Mark pat him on the back. It was Vettel that was patting Mark on the back, understandably he had got TQ but thats not how Team mates treat each other. Team mates are like Fernando and Felipe, when the hopped out of the car after qualy they congratulated each other on a fair effort.
      Then at the start of the race Mark got an absolutely brilliant start and had a guaranteed lead but he decided to give his team mate as little room as possible forcing him onto the dirty stuff. (Similar to Turkey, no?)
      Then at the end of the race, “not bad for a number two driver” lets really rub it into his team mate. And not once did he walk up to Sebastian and offer his team mate sympathy.

      That in my books is dirty tactics.

      1. as far as teammate rivalries go, “not bad for a number two driver” is absolutely small potatoes. the things mansell and others have done would shock you.

        1. Aaah yes, I seem to remember a story which involved Nige convincing the hapless Riccardo Patrese to brace his thumbs against the cockpit when going over Monza’s kerbs to get extra speed resulting in Patrese returning to the pits with bleeding thumbs!

        2. it was a brilliant line though, I hope someone makes a Webber T-shirt with that quote on it

          1. Ads they already have http://www.unlap.co.uk/37-mark-webber-number-2-driver-icons-t-shirt.html

            There’s a few more hilarious ones on too.

            1. What a nice shop. Might order something one day.

              This one really cracked me up:


              it’s even on topic, too!

            2. I love those shirts,
              but I want one of Smedley “Felipe, baby, keep cool”

      2. Harsh, but if that’s your opinion, you are entitled to it Jay. I’m an Aussie as well and I’m proud that Webber has beaten his team-mate today (last night). Running his team-mate out to the edge of the track was his way of ensuring he had the lead – a.k.a., taking the racing line. Vettel had the option of tucking in behind (just like he had the option of going “the other way” at Turkey) but he chose not to and we all know what happened next.

        Mark not congratulating Vettel after getting pole at Silverstone. Go back to Turkey where Webber got pole. I’m pretty sure there was Vettel in the background being obnoxious and pulling faces whilst Webber was basking in the glory of a good lap. I’m pretty sure Vettel didn’t congratulate Mark on that occasion either, he was too upset after his car broke.

        This is Mark’s mind games to unsettle Vettel. Sure he doesn’t play the “great sporting team-mate” to Sebastian, but let’s face it. If Sebastian was a great team-mate to start with, then I’m sure they would be getting along better. But the fact of things slowly favouring Sebastian, Mark has every right to say what he said after winning the race, and dropping the bottom lip when his stuff gets taken off him.

        If all of this results in Webber being better than his team-mate, then as long as he doesn’t stoop as low as his team-mate’s behaviour off the track, personally, I have no problem with it.

      3. Would you pat the back of the guy that ran into you at Turkey and then was given your front wing to qualify with?

        Vettel tried to cover off Mark and failed, Mark moved away from Vettel to avoid a crash. Once Mark was infront his line into the first corner meant he was going ot run wide (just as wide as Hamilton did on the identical line).

        It seems to me that Mark is following team orders regarding avoiding contact between the two Red Bulls following Turkey and Vettel isn’t.

        I think the ‘sport’ of badminton is better suited to your book of dirty tactics.

      4. Thats really interesting Jay M because you elude to the fact that Webber doesnt support his team mate. Well, i have been watching Mark for many years now – probably just like you. On the weekend, post qualifying and post race – it was the FIRST TIME EVER i DIDNT hear Webber say something positive about Vettel. Im sure there are a lot of people on here that will agree with me too. I can think of quiet a few times this season, 2010, Webber has been utterly gracious in defeat saying things like ‘its a great day for Seb and the Team’, ‘Seb was just that little bit quicker than me today but oh well’, etc. Im very dissapointed that you are sledging his move to squeeze out Vettel. Did you or didnt you not see Vettel clearly put Webber as close to the wall as possible off the start line? If he had of been concerned with only himself, he would have made it to turn one. Vettel, whilst yeilding to webber, couldve realised that and slowed down – whos choice was it to keep going as fast as possible? Vettels! Your comment ‘similar to Turkey, no?’ is interesting too. Webber gave him MORE room than silverstone and Vettel came back across him – EXPECTING – webber to slow! C’mon man! What about when in Malaysia Vettel jumped down the inside of Webber on the first turn?!
        Its funny that you mention he has dirty tactics, because whenever Seb doesnt qualify better than Webber, he doesnt want anything to do with anyone – or – ‘my chassis has abnormalities’. Joke!

      5. not once did Mark pat him on the back.

        Well boo-hoo. I doubt Vettel gives a damn.

        1. Umar Farooq Khawaja
          12th July 2010, 20:53


          When did getting pats on the back from one’s teammates become important? Is this Kindergarten F1 now?

          1. Well, Actually Umar I think you just raised a good point…

        2. Mark in Florida
          15th July 2010, 0:03

          Yea I agree, all you flower power people go hug a tree and let real people alone.Webber’s had to put up with more junk than most drivers.As for his comments after the win shows that He’s tired of being the red headed step child,tolerated but unloved.Vettel’s driving showed how petulant and uncaring he really is towards others by bashing his car into Sutil like that.

      6. hmmm, mind games in sport, well I never!!!!! What did Steve Waugh call it “Mental disintegration?” If Pettal can’t stand the heat, then he should get out of the kitchen. This is the first time I’ve not read MW giving both the full team including Vettel a positive wrap at a GP be it post qualifying or post race. Bluntly, can’t blame him give the bs the team management pulled this weekend

    8. Webber will leave at the end of 2010,they hate the guts of each other and there is gonna be war before the end of the season,possibly even worse than with Mclaren in 07,getting back to the race,good drive by both men

      1. It’s sure starting to look that way. Although I think Webber’s beef is more with the team than with Vettel. It will be interesting to see if they terminate the contract early. Will Buemi get promoted and we’ll have an all Seb lineup next year at Red Bull?

    9. Mark > the rest…

      beating his team mate, his team and everybody else… :)

    10. Please forgive me… I forgot Jones gave Willimas´maiden championship; and Alan is Aussie too.

    11. How on earth did Vettel get such a horrendous start? If the main straight was much longer Hamilton would have blown by him too. As it was he tried to close the door on Hamilton when it was clear that Webber was going to pin him on the outside, which did not work. Frankly I was shocked at how Hamilton backed off and did not dive fully underneath Vettel and give him a little sidepod autograph on the way by. It sucks for him that Hamilton cut his tire but when you make a dreadful start and have to start chopping to keep guys behind that is what happens a certain percentage of the time.

      1. @ “that is what happens a certain percentage of the time”

        Too true, as Alonso found today as well with his puncture. I think Hamilton has ‘re-calibrated’ his risk taking in general. No point going for a first corner tussle with a driver like Vettel today who’s obviously losing the plot.

      2. I know, strange but it seems the dirty side had much more grip considering both Vettel and Alonso got away poorly and Webber and Hamilton each had a great getaway..

      3. Vettel said “I was little bit out of the window on the clutch and I had a bad start, lots of wheel spin.”

      4. They also said that the “dirty” side was not dirty due to the previous races & starts laying down rubber.
        Does anyone else consider the wide front wings ridiculous in that they are so easy to catch the rear tyre when you pull out to overtake and ask to be knocked off, Why not the width of the inside of the front tyres instead of the outside? Surely we would have better racing with less downforce and less expensive wings knocked off?

    12. As what you say about Mansell, he didn´t had it easy too, but on the other hand: that´s the kind of stuff that makes great stories and Formula 1… if Mark makes it to the Championship, imagine what fans in 2030 will say about his winning season.
      Anybody remebers Mansell overtake at the infamous “Peraltada” curve in Mexico City circuit in 1992?
      Not, Senna, Schummi, Lauda …. Not even Clark could beat that curve; the Nigel dominated it. I cant forget Webbers accident in Le Mans, then he had something like that in Valencia only to win the next race at England.
      This is the kind of stories I love….

        1. Thanks for posting that…back when F1 cars could pass each other,not the crap aero package we have now

          1. why do you watch f1 then?

      1. What do you think about Berger winning in 1997? He had a pretty rough ride to get there as well, with injuries, his team wanting to dump him and his father dying.

        Clyde Brolin compares that to the state of mind Webber’s in (http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ft22440.html), pretty good read.

        I think Alonso is getting in a fight back mode as well and who knows what Schumi and Rosberg must be feeling like. Let’s hope for more fireworks in the second half of the season.

    13. Vettel’s biggest issue is that he is now obsessed with Webber – all his post race comments are about not being able to ‘fight’ Webber and his lame decision to intimidate Webber at the start cost him big points.

      The team need to tell him to pull his head in, and remind him that it is Ferrari and McLaren who he needs to ‘fight’. Webber has more wins and more points – Vettel’s arrogance can only come from blind support within Red Bull, and especially Helmut Marko.

      Both titles are there for RB to lose and at this rate they will definitely do so. Very poor considering the quality of the car.

      1. Here here, couldn’t have put it better myself

    14. I predicted on an earlier thread on this site, that webber was gonna put vetell wide and shore enough Webber did it. I have never been a Webber Fan, despite being an Aussie, but last night he has won my support well and truely. I hope he demolishes vetell in Germany and for the rest of the season. The reality of it all was that red bull screwed Webber over. If vetell crashes his car, does webber have to give that up to. Horner needs a lesson in driver management. Unlike Rubens and Coultard which were clearly slower then there teammates, Webber has gone toe to toe this year. There has been nothing between them all year and yet Webber is getting screwed.

      Mr Austria wants Vetell to win but Mr Webber has different idea.

    15. Understand that its not fair to Webber about the new front wing, but why is he (and many others) under the impression that he is not the #2 driver at Red Bull? Vettel has more career poles and wins than Webber, despite only being a few years in the sport, and when both were in identical machinery last year Vettel had the beating of Webber, 4 wins to 2.

      Sure, the gulf is not as wide between Vettel and Webber as say, Lewis and Heikki at McLaren, but nevertheless Webber is the #2 driver.

      1. christopheraser
        12th July 2010, 4:15

        People have that in their head because Red Bull has up until this weekend always said their drivers are equal. As Mark has said he wouldn’t have signed a contract to be a number two driver. If he had signed on knowing he was number two then I doubt any of this would be going on.

        I think he has a right to feel hard done by in regards to Red Bull. The team’s reaction after Turkey was totally out of line, never the less he and RBR have obviously settled on this. Then 3 races later they pull another stunt on him. Again none of this would be an issue if he was told he was number two, but he would never have agreed to this so it’s a mute point.

      2. gee Cameron, and what did MW do at the end of 2008? If I remember correctly, he got himself a broken leg & a broken shoulder plus other injuries. He didn’t get into the RB5 until a couple of weeks before the start of the 2009 season. I wonder of that may have had anything to do with his slow start to season 2009? (Hint of extreme sarcasm) Took Webber until the end of the season to fully recover – after the plates & pins where removed from his leg. Since then, he has more than matched Vettel.

    16. I’m trying to stimulate a debate, spread opinions and ask questions, not infuriate people.

      My Opinion on the Wing Situation is that Horner chose the right move, but ultimately the wrong move.

      You have two wings, one breaks so you give the remaining wing too the driver that is currently higher in the championship to increase the chances of scoring a World Drivers Title. Wether it was Vettel’s wing or Webber’s wing that broke in practice is irrelevant. – That is at least the thinking behind Horner.

      Taking the new wing off Webber’s car and onto Vettel’s was not a good idea though for the mind set and relationship of Mark Webber and the RedBull team. He might see it as “hey you broke the wing you were given, tough luck”. Then he might see it as “Not fair, that’s my wing, the team must be favouring him” – understandable but possibly a bit illogical and immature to think that for Formula 1?

      The Wing did not make much of a difference so the BBC Commentary were saying, but they were saying Adrian Newey wanted to run it to collect data for further development. So was the new wing really the difference between the two drivers in Qualifying? Mark Webber quoted after valancia qualifying when he was beaten by team mate Sebastian Vettel “I just wasn’t good enough, so second is all I could do” Was this the same but this time Webber blamed it on the front wing advantage of which it was very minute? If they put the standard wing on Webber’s car to make it equal with Vettel’s would Webber then be upset by having his front wing taken away because Vettel’s broke?

      Red Bull had the theory right, but the drivers emotions were all wrong and now things between them will just get worst.

      1. christopheraser
        12th July 2010, 4:34

        I don’t remember Webber blaming the front wing for him being second in qual at any stage, although it clearly would have played a part. Probably more physiologically than aerodynamically.

        I think Vettel would have taken it a lot harder than Webber if it was him loosing his wing.

      2. MacademiaNut
        12th July 2010, 5:35

        It’s not illogical at all. Firstly, (1) you forget is that this is just mid-season. There are plenty of races to go. (2) This year, the points system is revised. Their difference was 12, when a win gives you 25. That’s not much at all. and (3) That 12 point is also because of Webber not scoring any point at Valencia due to his accident.

        If you can have this much emotion (in the name of stimulating a debate or whatever you want to call it) for a sport that you watch, you can’t blame the emotions of drivers who put their heart out every day on the track.

    17. we must keep in mind that Vettel has come into the sport at a very early stage, he is only 23 remember, and he is bound to make mistakes. Webber has been around racing for many years and is ‘hardened’ by that experience. I think the relationship between the drivers is ‘strained’, and the decisions that Horner needs to make as a team manager will not alway’s make people happy. Perhaps the driver ‘relationship’ got off on the wrong foot. Let’s not forget in 07 in Japan, webber was hit by then a very new boy in F1, one S Vettel….I think at the time Webber mouthed off about the new boy not having any experience as he blamed vettel. Replay’s suggested later that in fact that vettel wasn’t at fault. Webber needs to move on and continue doing what he is currently doing well, and that’s focus on the driving…stay away from the ‘ppor me’ garbage

      1. Agreed. I know there’s lots of hate for Vettel around here, and most won’t agree with this, but for his age Vettel’s clearly more mature than the much older Webber. Webber should take his fight to the team and keep his mouth shut with the press…

        1. I know there’s lots of hate for Vettel around here

          Actually in the live blog before the race we did a poll on who people wanted to well and Webber and Vettel weren’t separated by much:

          29% Webber
          22% Vettel
          20% Hamilton
          17% Alonso

          British Grand Prix Live Blog

          1. It a shame we don’t have any stats on support for a driver. Because I am certain vettel must have lost a lot.

        2. Does that maturity extend to making ‘insane’ or ‘crazy’ hand gestures after being involved in an accident with your team mate that you were far from an innocent party in?

          1. …or running wheel-to-wheel with another car down a pitlane and contributing to (not saying it was 100% his fault) a dangerous situation?

    18. There were two new aero wings, one fell off. It appears because that driver had more points, the other driver’s car had his taken off and reverted to the older nose.

      That is an important part of this thread.

      1. HOw many more points did Vettel have and how many races are left in the season.
        This is favoutism and nothing else. we all have our fav drivers in F1 and we all want them to win and want good things written abt them. Fernando is my fav driver but I still think that the penalty could have been avoided and it was all his fault.
        IF vettel’s front wing fell off, Red Bull should have given him the old wing and not Webber’s wing ( I am not a webber fan). This is not the last race and championship isnt decided here. Red Bull is screwing their driver’s camaradrie.

    19. I think RBR is managing this situation very poorly. As a result Mclaren is benefited immensely. They need to have a proper conversation with the drivers and clear up issues quick if a RBR driver is to win the 2010 championship.

    20. I have to say that I have not been a fan of RBR but after Turkey and the blaming of webber I have been pulling for him. That not bad for a #2 is pretty damning for team dynamics if in theory everyone is equal.

    21. A lot of you don’t agree with my thoughts, this is all very subjective and I’m cool with that,

      ” Red Bull is screwing their driver’s camaradrie.” – Gagan

      ” That not bad for a #2 is pretty damning for team dynamics if in theory everyone is equal. ” – Namesis

      ” “Webber’s mechanics were said to have removed the ‘old’ front wing that Webber had been forced to race with and waved it at Vettel’s side of the garage” ” – Cunning Stunt 8

      ” I think RBR is managing this situation very poorly. As a result Mclaren is benefited immensely ” – Splint3r

      It does seem to be apparent that Vettel biased (and I know I am as much as I try not being… which I don’t do very well!) or Webber biased, RBR will loose the championship from their own undoing. The question is Can they solve it? When will they solve it? and How will they solve it?

      I might be wrong but wasn’t Alonso contracted for more then a year at Mclaren but after his feud’s with Hamilton he reduced it too one year? So will Vettel or Webber change?

      1. They can solve this by not showing favoritism to any driver. I think its fair to say that both drivers have a chance at the championship now so the RBR management should make decisions unbiased in any occasion from here on.

        For example put a coin toss to decide who gets the next upgrade?

        But if things go from bad to worse i believe RBR will back SV because he is young and has more potential than MW. So his contract may be stripped like FA with Mclaren.

      2. I don’t remember when i think it was after qualifiers and the front wing issue. Webber made some thinly veiled comments that if he had known he wasn’t going to be treated equal he wouldn’t have signed the contract for another year. Clearly RBR said all the right things at the time but he feels they have already gone back on that now.

        I am a Vettel fan but to me the obvious favouritism is embarrassing and divisive, Vettel is under the impression he is invincible and he’s taking impulsive risks that are not paying off.

        RBR should have this season in the bag but it is the fight off the track and not on it that is deciding the result – and they are handing it to McLaren and Christian Horner has his work cut out to sort this out and fast.

    22. rashid hasan
      12th July 2010, 7:14

      webber is right. period.

    23. I think we need to see past the Webber vs Vettel debate and look deeper into the decision process that lead to Vettel getting the new wing. Who made this decision? Was it Christian Horner alone? Or, as I suspect, was it a directive from Helmut Marko? This will be key to any discussions about 2011 contracts, or the breaking of them. I don’t actually believe that MW will quit – he is simply forcing Red Bull to make a public statement of support and hopefully put an end to #1/#2 driver talk.

      What is most intriguing is that the combination of Newey/Webber/Vettel is so impressive why would management do anything – no matter how small – to shake this? There are clearly personal agendas at play in the Red Bull management team and Webber, quite correctly, is now seeking to have these made known.

      1. According to SPEED, Horner said the order came direct from Matteschitz and that his hands were tied. Don’t know if that’s the case or not.

        1. First I’ve heard of that. Takes Horner’s feet out from underneath him if true…

        2. Heard the same thing. After Turkey, with Marko talking over Horner and speaking up for Vettel, it was clear that the shots are not being called in Milton-Keynes. If RBR wants to micro manage this, it will end badly. I’m starting to actually feel bad for Horner and starting to wonder just how much of race day operations is being run from Austria.

          Managing a closely-held soda corporation no more qualifies you to run an F1 team than it qualifies Coca Cola to start a communications satellite subsidiary—and then start kibbitzing about what part should go where from the board room. They need to back off and let the team do the job.

          1. HounslowBusGarage
            13th July 2010, 9:19

            Side question. Is Red Bull sold in Australia?

            1. it is, good with vodka I’m told

    24. You know, I don’t know if Webber has a beef as such with Vettel (off track that is, on track he’ll fight Seb every inch of the way). It seems to be more with team management and their not so subtle way of playing favourites with its two drivers.

      Webber’s comments of “Not bad for a number two driver” and “I would never have signed a contract for next year if I knew that this was the way it was going” probably won’t do him any favors with Red Bull team management privately (publicly I think they’ll do the usual “everything’s great” act). But I can’t see the team doing anything to sabotage Mark’s chances of winning the 2010 Drivers’ Championship. That would be like committing corporate suicide because doing so would also hurt their chance at the constructors title, especially with the 2 McLaren drivers scoring consistent podium and point finishes.

      Red Bull’s house might be a place of high tension right now but I can’t see it hurting them on track. It didn’t hurt Mclaren back in 1989 when Prost & Senna were in their feud and Prost was accusing the team (and especially engine supplier Honda) of favouring Senna. In that situation McLaren continued to decimate the field because both drivers were determined to win with what was clearly the best car. I think it might be the same at Red Bull, the difference being that I don’t think Webber has a problem on a personal level with Vettel, just team management.

    25. I guess the real question is who is doing the most on the set up of the Redbull cars . Is it Webber with his years of experience that is being relied on and is Vettel gaining from this knowledge in his cars set up.

      1. Yep, & Webber was quick to point out to James Allen after qualifying that Vettel’s side of the garage copied his setup this weekend, & that they have done this quite a few times…

    26. I thought Webber’s comment about lots of drivers offering him a new wing but not Seb, and Sebs comment after the race about seeing peoples true faces suggest they’re starting to have a personal problem as well now.

      1. I think the last few months has shown people’s true faces, Seb probably doesn’t realise the irony of the very comment he makes applying to him more so than anyone else.

    27. As I have said before – RBR team management is appalling – If they lose the title this year (driver or team) it is entirely the managements fault – Taking the wing off Webber’s car and giving it to Vettel was just idiotic – If their intention was to make it fair – they should have ditched the wing entirely or left it on Webber’s car (as it was his wing in the first place)

      Vettel lost out at the start – SO WHAT? He is not complaining! He realised that he had a bad start, tried to fight for position without driving into Webber, and threw himself into the grass when Webber drove his ‘overly aggressive’ line.

      For all the Vettel haters out there, I hope none of you like Schumi, Hamilton, Alonso either because they have all fought their teammates on track and arguably have all been favored by their teams at some point. IT IS THE NATURE OF THE SPORT! So stop whining and hating on Vettel. He is a great driver and will prove himself this year or the next. Webber is a gentleman and although I give him 1/2 the blame for Turkey, and all the blame for Valencia, he acted as any other driver would have at Silverstone.

      At this rate RBR will not win either championship. Horner deserves to be sacked for horrible team management.

      1. There’s only one time I really HATED Vettel for his character, and that was after Turkey. All other times, I disliked him because he was so damn quick, and I’m a huge Webber fan. Even after this incident, I was jumping for joy after the first corner – then immediately felt ashamed that I cheered Vettel’s misfortune. It’s not Seb who I’m angry with, it’s Horner / Marko / Mateschitz. I actually thought Seb handled himself just fine after this race – he was just disappointed in himself after his poor start, and it’s never easy to put into words when you’re bombarded by the media like that. Sure, I think he’s whiny, immature, and arrogant – but he IS a racing driver.

    28. Keith, on the redbull website there are some comments suggesting that Horner has been sacked, any substance to this from your angle?

      1. I doubt there is any truth to this – merely some Red Bull ‘fans’ declaring their feelings.

        To sack Horner at this or any stage would be akin to simply hitting the Red Bull self-destruct button!

        1. Yeah, I would hope not. He seems caught between a rock and a hard place at the moment.

          1. Yes I don’t think these decisions are down to Horner, I think his hands are tied. Getting rid of Horner would be the death nail for RBR this season.

    29. The real reason behind the Vettle,Webber battle.
      Vettel is threatening to leave Redbull at the end of 2010 if not given N0.1 status. His management already has an offer on the table from Ferrari to replace Massa at years end and is using it as leverage.
      Redbull are trying their best to accomodate Vettel to retain his services for a further 3 years unfortunatly at Webbers expence. Massa’s management is already talking to Renault to replace Petrov.
      For Mateschitz and Marko to loose Vettel with or without a title after funding his entire career would be seen as a major fumble

      1. HounslowBusGarage
        13th July 2010, 9:25

        Any sources for that, Zeke?

      2. That would be really explosive! Who is your secred source for this?

    30. Webber now leads Vettel in points and has stated that he now expects #1 treatment (or words to that effect) In other words if only one ‘better ‘ wing is available he, Webber should get it now because he has the points lead. Why therefore was he so miserable when the team gave the ‘better’ wing which happens to belong to the team and not Webber, to the points leader before the Silverstone race? Maybe the team were afraid MW would stuff the new wing up a Lotus exhaust due to poor overtaking judgement once again.

      1. You’ve got cause and effect mixed up. Webber said he expected to be given the better equipment next time around if only one item is available _because_ of how things were handled this time. But really, he did not see any reason for the wing to be taken off him in the first place.

      2. The point is, RBR have set a disasterous precedent by setting out a new team rule that the driver ahead in points gets dibs on new parts, to the extent of stripping the other car. Webber is basically stating that by the new rules, in Hockenheim he gets a go at Vettel’s car with a screw driver if he sees something he likes, and he is correct.

    31. An ex Australin Prime Minister once famously said “Balmain boys don’t cry”.
      Fast forward to 2010 “Queanbeyan boys don”t cry….they just shove it right up em “.

    32. This all comes down to corporate directors of Red Bull poking their noses in and making decisions thet Christian Horner should be making, Christian Horner has proved himself to be a splinless corporate sellout who has no power over the corporate cronies at Red Bull, if they say Vettel should have the wing then thats it, its pathetic and Red Bull will lose every championship even with the fastest car.

    33. Guys,

      i see you all discussing webber vs vettel and team mates rivalry but webber was done ver by the team not by Vettel and horner’s dcesion was logical not partial to anyone.

      However given the recent happening in turkey the action has a knck on effect getting webber to think vettel is being favoured.

      the decesion is like anything else like pit calls RBR do in a race, the carc leading has the first call when to make the stop. so same rules applied so i don’t know why webber is so upset. webber is doing a good job and he should continue to focus his efforts on his perfromance and not create a drift by being outspoken in the media. such actions are not required and dmaging to the team and sport.

      1. there is no way it was Horner decided to rip it off Vettels car and stick it on Webbers it was someone from higher up i am sure, Horner has more logic than that and you could see he was uncomfortable with the whole thing. i dont see how in any the it was logical, and how you can say that Vettel was not being preffered in any way, it was so blatant if it happened to someone like Alonso i could see him smashing his garage to peices and right hooking the team principal, Webbers reaction was less fiery than i expected.

      2. Hey Bob, I agree with you. Like I said earlier, I don’t think that Webber has a problem with Vettel as a person (he may question his character as a racer though after a few on-track incidents between the two). I think most of the beef is between Webber and team management (Christian Horner & Helmut Marko). Also agree that all the in-fighting isn’t good for the team or the sport and public comments like Mark’s post-race aren’t going to do anyone any favors. But hell, it makes it better for the fans :)

        As to Webber being upset, he had right to be since team management made the decision to take the new wing from his car to replace Seb’s broken one in the time between Q2 and Q3. Not good timing, especially as Mark was faster in Q2. It showed some favoritism toward one driver over the other. There was no reason behind the decision other than team management wanted Vettel to have the newer and supposedly better front wing rather than Webber.

        1. BBC commentator Martin Brundle said after Silverstone that he feels “uncomfortable for Horner” because he suspects he is receiving orders from the team’s German-speaking owners.

          Horner insisted: “Never, at any point, has pressure been placed on me to favour Sebastian because it’s better for selling cans of Red Bull.

          “I didn’t have a conversation with Helmut (Marko) or anyone from Red Bull regarding the decision to give Sebastian the wing. It was purely a technical decision, which I discussed with Adrian.”

          He also slammed reports that Webber’s mechanics taunted Vettel’s side of the garage by waving the old front wing at them as the team packed up the garage.

          “It’s ridiculous,” he said. “Our mechanics are completely for each other, irrelevant of the car crew.

    34. Considering before the weekend Red Bull were trying to stir up trouble between Hamilton and Button at McLaren, I found it quite funny that Red Bull were the ones who showed more divisions in their team.

    35. For a guy that had a reputation as such a nice and humble young driver Vettel has managed to shoot himself in the foot more times than I can remember over the last season and a half and is now getting a reputation as a petulant and dirty driver who can only overtake people in much slower cars.

      I can understand Mark’s reaction this weekend, it was bad enough when certain people inside Red Bull tried to make out it was Marks fault that Vettel had crashed into him a few races ago but now they’ve started taking new parts off his car to replace broken ones on Vettel’s and it is blatantly obvious that people in the team want Vettel to win, even at Mark’s expense.

      I personally hope that Webber wins this season and then leaves Red Bull for a team that will treat him with a bit of respect. He had an accident that would have had me in dire need of a new race suit two weeks ago and still turned up at Silverstone ready to race and then wiped the floor with everyone out there (even in a reject of a tub with an old style front wing).

      1. “Vettel has managed to shoot himself in the foot more times than I can remember over the last season and a half and is now getting a reputation as a petulant and dirty driver who can only overtake people in much slower cars”

        I couldn’t agree more, his pr people need to act fast to turn around this growing public perception mentioned above. Right here and now I am struggling to think of a decent pass he has made on a car that wasn’t much slower than he was or that he didn’t make contact with to make it stick..

    36. I can’t believe how blatant Vettell was at the start trying to block his teamate before the first corner. He came across and tried to block him. He has no respect and I’m so glad Webber got him. Go the Aussie!

      1. Vettel is an up and coming driver,there will be plenty of teams who would love to have him come next year.I don’t think rivalry within a team is a bad thing in F1,after all if it is made too cosy and safe it will get mightily boring.
        I still preferred the F1’s of the 1980’s & 1990’s as that was edge to edge racing,Mansell,Senna,Prost,Schumacher – those were the REAL race days.
        Too much red tape now,too many rules tying the drivers in knots,not enough risk taking out of fear of being penalised.Ask Alonso about it!!!!

      2. Well said..!!! We are starting to see more and more of this side to Vettel and I must say I’m not as much of a Vettel fan as i once was.. Sure he is fast but can he race..?

      3. I dont see what you didnt like about Vettel’s move off the start line. He was racing for the lead. He tried to make it as hard for Webber as possible in an effort to maintain his position. Webber gave Vettel some room but kept his foot down so the block didnt work. No one crashed. So IMO good exciting racing from both drivers (and Hamilton too).

    37. I think that really everything is hunky dory at Red Bull, this is all just smoke and mirrors…

      1. Unlikely, very very unlikely..

    38. Nice race from him.It is vindication from him.
      I am betting him taking the drivers championship from Vettel & Hamilton 3rd.

    39. Championship appears to be between Hamilton & Webber so why doesn’t Vettel stop acting like a little kid and spoil Red Bull getting drivers and constructors championship. then again the team are also helping this.

    40. Webber is going to have a hard time next year with Red Bull even if he’s driving the car with number 1 on it next year. evidence 1: Turkey evidence 2: Britain. When is Horner and co going to admit they are favouring Vettel. Horner & Newey looked so excited on the pit wall when Webber was in the lead and Vettel was coming last at the British GP.

    41. Looks like the championship is between Hamilton & Webber and the sooner Vettel realises this and stop acting like a kid, the sooner he can stop Red Bull getting the drivers and constructors championships. maybe the team could help as well.

    42. Goes to show that Red Bull does not always give you wings , after all.

    43. just so I’m understanding all this vettel hating….RBR had 2 new wings (far from ideal situation), one broke on one car,(no fault of anybody) and Horner(????we, joe public will never know) decided to give Vettel (with the most points at that stage) the use of that part. Race is won by Webber (well done) and vettel finishes 7. F1 has seen many a team have situations such as these, but I really can’t begin to understand the anger being directed at vettel. I believe webber is simply at that stage of his career that he feels he needs to flex his muscle (we must remember until last year he hadn’t achieved anything in F1 and was labelled an underachiever by many) and who better with a younger team mate. Yes, vettel has flaws, but will learn and improve. webber will be best served to knuckle down and perhaps remember that he too was young and has also made the mistakes.

      1. You make a very good point, and as you say why direct all this hatred at Vettel – what has he really done to deserve it? If Red Bull do favour him he will use that to his advantage like anyone else would.

        Until Webber joined Red Bull his career was unremarkable and now he is a serious competitor. He has the most the prove now and Vettel has plenty to learn.

        Red Bull now need damage limitation and they can still walk away with the drivers and constructors championships – if they can only stop pressing the self destruct button.

    44. It is clear from their body language after qualifying and races, that they hate each other, and their behaviour in the first 2 turns at Silverstone showed that they have not the will to stay clear of each others cars during the races. Red Bull have to fire one of them to win either championship this year. In this season the 2. Red Bull car’s job is to pull as many points away from the competition, like McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes as possible, but with this conflict it is not happening.
      Apart from that I don’t see how You objectively can be so impressed with Webber. He has always been a Qualifying specialist, but not achieved much in F1 other than a history of collisions with his teammate. He hit Hamilton early this year, his temper maybe caused him to try to go airborne without a takeoff permit, when coming up behind Kovi and he refuses to accept the fact that the team isn’t there for him, i.e. if management decides that he should race with the old type wing, then he should accept this decision, without anger.
      As an employee it is ok to debate and discuss with management, but once they have decided and things are as they are, then You have to accept and play along without being destructive or publicly disloyal. That kind of behaviour is very expensive for a company or organization.

    45. Hey everyone check this out Webber to drive a whole new car at the Hockenheim Gp.


      1. Thanks for pointing out that link, very funny, I hope someone at Red Bull gets to see it. Might help lighten the mood over there

        1. They might buy it, paint it in Red Bull colours and have Vettel or Marko driving Webber around during the drivers parade.

    46. how far can a driver push another?

      is there any hard and fast rules about how far over another driver can defend?

      how far in front has the driver got to be before he can revert back to the racing line before its called a foul?

      my heart is in my mouth when i see guys pushing others across the track as the put a pass on another, its get rather scary.

      i realize they can move once in either direction to defend but how far can they go without pushing someone off the track, although i see them push people off the track once they get in front.

      i can see some horrendous crashes coming soon if this is not nipped in the bud shortly.

    47. I am still gobsmacked when I think of a new spec wing taken off one car and put on another.
      I think Webber should move to another team.(a good one)
      I think Horner should be sacked.
      Too many first corner incidents, why not have a moving start under a pace car?

    48. Maybe everyone forgets that Vettel ran up the back of Webber in a wet Fuji race many years ago costing him his frist possible win. Maybe they forget Vettel running into the side of Webber at Turkey and costing him a victory and being blamed by the team when all neutrals in the world knew the answer. Maybe they forget Webber never had a RELIABLE car when he was Vettel’s age and maybe they forget last year Webber had a broken leg and shoulder and still managed to compete all year. Maybe Vettel took that for granted and is now panicking that a driver supposingly on the way out is outqualifying him and outracing him. Maybe Vettel should just wait. He’s still young and can win a championship still if he starts becoming more disciplined and more mature.

    49. (14 July 2010, email mail out received courtesy Mark Webber’s site)

      Winning the British Grand Prix was a great thrill for all of us at Red Bull Racing.

      My disappointment on Saturday after qualifying spilled over into Sunday but it was simply due to the fact that I, along with every other driver on the grid, wanted the best possible chance of success.

      Sebastian received the newer front wing for reasons which were not clearly explained to me until Saturday late afternoon. Obviously I can see why a team may at certain points have to favour a driver with more points in the championship, if there are only enough resources to fully support one of us.

      We’ve already debriefed the race weekend at the factory and have cleared the air. It’s now understood that, should we face this unlikely dilemma again, preference will go to the championship points leader.

      Of course things get said in the heat of the moment which, with hindsight goggles on, probably shouldn’t have been said. Formula One is a highly charged and fiercely competitive arena where emotions and adrenalin do run high from time to time like in many sports and my comment on the radio after the race was an example of Australian sarcasm – either at its best or worst depending on how you choose to take it. But rest assured, under the helmet I was massively rapped about winning one of the most prestigious events on the F1 calendar and Red Bull Racing’s local race. It’s a home race of sorts for me; I only live 40 mins down the road and the UK and Buckinghamshire in particular has been home to me for the past 15 years so Silverstone and the British GP are both very special to me.

      Christian Horner and I have known each other for many years; we’re friends and have a strong mutual respect which continues and extends to other activities, such as our GP3 team and interest in finding and nurturing young racing talent.

      The team has produced an awesome car and has come a long way in a short space of time. There are more than 500 people at the Red Bull Racing factory at Milton Keynes and I know that each and every one of them share the highs and lows that Sebastian and I experience during the season. The support we both enjoy is phenomenal and on Sunday evening many of them joined us at Christian’s annual post-race party and celebrated our win in style.

      The respect within the team extends to the drivers. I know I have a very good driver as a team-mate and I wouldn’t want it any other way. We share information freely in team meetings and contribute to the development and improvement of our cars. Seb and I are not enemies, we’re just two drivers that are pushing hard and want to do the best for ourselves and the team, it’s as simple as that.

      The British Grand Prix was a wonderful result for myself and the team; however time moves fast and looking in the mirror for too long doesn’t prepare us for Germany. We’ve moved on.

      1. As a Red Bull (mainly Vettel)fan I am going to believe every word of this (optimistic – maybe,naiive – probably), but I am going to start lokking forward to Hockenheim, and stop dwelling on what might have been.

    50. IMHO fair play to Mark Webber. It’s racing and there should not be team orders. Drivers need to race on their own merit and be treated equally. I’m a McLaren fan, but I was glad to see him get the win after the events of the last few weeks. Cracking race.

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