??We don?t manipulate things like Ferrari??

F1 Fanatic round-up

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Red Bull owner Dietrich Mateschitz has spelled out his team’s policy ahead of the season finale. Here’s today’s round-up:


Red Bull boss: No driver favouritism, I don?t care if we lose (James Allen)

??Let the two drivers race and what will be will be. if Alonso wins we will have been unlucky. I predict a Hollywood ending. Worst case scenario we don?t become champion? We?ll do it next year. But our philosophy stays the same because this is sport and it must remain sport. We don?t manipulate things like Ferrari do.??

Dieter Rencken previews “Senna” film (TopCar)

“Despite cutting it to 147 minutes the producers remained dissatisfied. Ultimately the production was edited to 104 minutes as demanded by Universal. In the process many gems were discarded, but the production trio compensated by retaining priceless moments and copious quantities of previously unseen/behind-the-scenes footage, including key incidents he was involved in, enquiries drivers? briefings and more intimate moments.”

David Hunt Exclusive On Team Lotus (The Race Driver)

“When they bought Group Lotus in late 1996 a lot of Malaysian dignitaries flew over to see the new purchase at a launch event. They were taken completely by surprise when they learned that their new trophy asset did not include an F1 racing team. It?s a bit like the Americans thinking they?d bought Tower Bridge only to find the old London Bridge on their doorstep. It seems the Malaysians had been lacking in their Due Diligence.”

Fernando Alonso ‘100%’ confident of winning F1 title (BBC)

“I just need to finish second. It doesn’t matter who wins in Abu Dhabi if I finish second.”

The Art of Simulation (Williams)

“Chris Partridge has been given rare access to the Williams Formula 1 team’s simulator.”

Paddock life: Interlagos edition (Autosport)

“Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali joked with the media that he had been ‘trembling’ with worry that the local fans would berate his team over what happened at Hockenheim, but instead they simply heaped all their antagonism on Fernando Alonso instead. It was amazing seeing Ferrari-shirted fans booing one of the Maranello drivers before cheering on the other one.”

Russia?s Vladimir Putin gives F1 car a whirl

“Vladimir Putin just cannot stay away from manly pursuits.”

Comment of the day

Lewis Hamilton anywhere other than McLaren is hard to imagine, but so was Michael Schumacher in a car that isn’t red. Chris P wonders if it could happen:

If you are at McLaren or Ferrari you know a championship winning car will come along every couple of years. Question is now with Red Bull having the quickest car for two years (challenging for the championship up to the wire in both years) will they continue to thwart the established teams? Will Mercedes be in the mix next year?

Hamilton should have won 2007, he won 2008, 2009 was impossible to win and this year without his run of three DNFs he probably should have 20-30 more points than he has. So in his four years in F1 he has gone into the last race with a chance of winning the WDC on three occasions. No one else has been in the same position. Should he seriously consider changing teams?
Chris P

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On this day in F1

Back in 2000 Ricardo Zonta and BAR parted on angry terms, the Brazilian telling the press:

Instead of finding support and comfort with Jacques Villeneuve and Craig Pollock, I found critical remarks which were unjustified. And from there the personal errors multiplied. I felt lost. I could not work as well as I fought to earn some points and return myself to the top.
Ricardo Zonta

After that Zonta made a handful of starts for Jordan and Toyota in 2002 and 2004.

He was deployed a substitute in Ralf Schumacher’s place at Indianapolis in 2005, but of course he never got to start the race.

Read more: United States Grand Prix 2005 Review

Author information

Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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214 comments on “??We don?t manipulate things like Ferrari??”

  1. “Let the two drivers race and what will be will be. if Alonso wins we will have been unlucky. I predict a Hollywood ending. Worst case scenario we don’t become champion? We’ll do it next year. But our philosophy stays the same because this is sport and it must remain sport. We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari do.”

    My god. How do you know you’ll have a good car next year? and even if you manage to design a car as good as this one, why are you so sure you’re gonna win?. You won’t do it this year with such a beast of a car in the end…

    It’s not a question of “manipulating” things. It’s something even Mclaren have done!. And you’d still say: “it’s all about team work”.

    I cannot understand this! You’d be beating Ferrari at their own game!!!

    1. plus, if it’s so true they don’t “manipulate things”, why did that front wing go to Vettel’s car? by then Horner said it was because Vettel was higher in the championship standings.

      So you’re saying two things about the same situation. Only that it’s not a front wing you’re discussing about. It’s a drivers championship that’s in play.

      1. I confess Fer, I am so baffled by this, Newey himself has stated that he puts his team sucsess down to fresh regulations, that won’t last forever. I still can’t belive there acting like there going to throw it away like this. That cackle Fernando gave in Korea when they self destructed for him first time/ I reckon we’ll here it again.

        Also if it wasn’t for Lewis’s DNF’s he’d be right in on this one, especially Spain, gah!

        1. that cackle was awesome. i thought the joker was driving…

        2. I don’t care if we lose

          Yer, but I’m guessing Mark and Sebatian don’t fell the same way you idiot.

          1. Mateschitz may aswell congratulate Alonso on winning the WDC now, instead of later

          2. To be fair Mateschitz has already won. It’s just Mark and Sebastian that are trying to win now.

      2. Fer, Great point about the front wing. I almost forgot about that comment by Horner.
        It’s official Deitrich, Helmut and Horner have started to believe their own B.S.

        1. Yeah, that Deitrich guy is a hypocrite !

    2. Indeed, he shouldn’t be so confident about the future of the team. Besides, there is another problem that is to avoid the battles between Vettel and Webber. Some drivers has had their races ruined by Vettel’s imprudence.

    3. Cunning Stunt 8
      9th November 2010, 6:40

      Well of course Dietrich would say that to the press, but behind the scenes I bet he’s telling the team they’d absolutely better do what it takes win. Remember, Dietrich’s main concern is building the brand and image of Red Bull, and if Red Bull can win both championships without (appearing to) “manipulate things” and beat Ferrari who blatantly have, wouldn’t that be the best possible outcome for Red Bull?

      1. if webbo wins itll cost a fortune in new rb cans…..thay put vets face on it at the start ov da season….wats dat tell ya……webbos leaving rb….deffo….

    4. Mateschitz is blowing bull out of his ass. He makes that statement now, knowing that Seb will have to move over for Webb. Its all just fake RP. Trying to make them look like angels.

      Truth is that before the race in the team briefing, they will go through the scenario together with the two drivers. They will make sure that Seb knows when to move over for Webber, so that no radio orders have to be made. Afterwards Seb will go out to the press and tell him how he volunteered to do it for his team mate because he is just such a nice person and all. Meanwhile it was only because it was the team who ordered it (behind closed doors).

      If Seb doesn’t move over, and Web and Seb lose the WDC, then I will believe they had no team orders.

      1. Yep, have to agree with that logic, they are really milking this to have the RB brand shown in the best light. Fair and non manipulative, but these public statements are making me feel ill.

      2. “I’ll pull over for Mark” is Seb saying the same P.R. that Mateschitz is spewing. I don’t think he’d pull over for anyone.

        Interesting isn’t it that it’s Vettel thats pulling over for Mark and not Mark having poll and leading the race on merit that every one is talking about.

        1. Interesting isn’t it that it’s Vettel thats pulling over for Mark and not Mark having poll and leading the race on merit that every one is talking about.

          That’s cos Webber hasn’t beaten Vettel in any of the last 5 races.

          And Webber hasn’t won from pole for 12 races.

      3. it’s more than a simple ‘public relations’ speach. It’s all marketing strategy. And i think it will be better for the Red Bull brand to let them fight fairly than fixing results.

        They sponsor several athletes and sports involving adventure and challenge. Faking results will damage the reputation more than loosing the drivers championship.

    5. how can redbull be that fake eevn whitmarsh has “forgotten” ferraris incident cause theres no point for more mind games mclaren is out of contention so they admited they didnt had the car and moved on cause every team is like ferrari or worse cause we dont get the coded messages like “mark yyour engine is running hot so push button X,O,R1,L2 “

    6. Mateschitz for the losers. he just came out and said he will not have any team orders like him and his sugar water co. are moral giants. this has nothing to do with sportmanship. Mateschitz does not want to do anything to get in the way of Vettel. even on the last lap in a vet web alonso 1 2 3. nothing period?. so then after Webber had 3 mechanical failures last year and was out of the running why did Mateschitz have no problem with Webber saying he would do all he could to help Vettel in the drivers championship. sportmanship is ok. but this is just favouritism with spin.

    7. The wing decision did not take place on track nor did it impact the race. There was no change of position to influence the points.
      If they want to give Webber a peddle car and Vettel a race car that’s his choice. As long as he does not bring it into the race. Ferrari decision impacted the outcome of a race and maybe a championship. Big difference.

  2. Lotus Racing is Team Lotus. Group Lotus were never Team Lotus. They have the Chapman’s backing and Colin’s ‘in case of victory’ black cap. End of story.

    1. I am absolutely certain that is not the end of the story.

    2. You know what strikes me is that if Group Lotus enter F1 next year in a tie-up with Renault…they won’t be able to use the famous Lotus badge as the rights to use that in F1 rest with Team Lotus…which Group Lotus doesn’t own…but Lotus Racing does.

      This is going to get messy and I fear could leave a sour taste in the mouths of many of the fans that Lotus Racing have attracted this year – myself included.

      1. I’m very sad about this as I think Lotus Racing have done a great job this year. But as Proton who own Group Lotus is owned by the Malaysian government, and Fernandes’ companies are part financed by the Malaysian government it very much looks that no matter what the rights and wrongs or who owns what, the final deal will be a political one based on what is best for the Malaysian government…… and I very much doubt if that is what would be best for the F1 fans.

        1. Unfortunately, all Fernandez owns is the rights to prevent someone else from running as “Team Lotus”. Other than that, Group Lotus has the Lotus name.

          At the end of the day, Fernandez is an independent business man and is not government supported. The Malaysian government will do something stupid like tying up with Renault simply because they can, not because it makes sense. They probably think that they have more chance of winning with Renault than with Fernandez and money is not relevant to the government since there is no accountability in Malaysia.

  3. Jarred Walmsley
    9th November 2010, 0:30

    That didn’t look like an F1 car to me, the diffuser was way to shallow,so was it a GP2 car or just an older Renault in the new livery?

    1. 2002/03 renault.

  4. That is an epic Troll Face Mateschitz has there.

  5. If either Hamilton or Alonso were in a Red Bull the last 2 years they would both have an extra 2 titles to their name. If they were together in that team, well, I would say Hamilton would have an extra title to his name and would be on the verge of another this weekend, his only competition being his team-mate.

    1. Actually Alonso would be 4 times champion because the Reb Bull cars and this year’ tyres are undesteery as hell. Nice try though.

      1. not quite sure exactly why this fact, if true, gives Alonso another 2 titles but ok…

      2. I think the Red Bull cars favor pure pace over car control….which Lewis and Seb have, Lewis has a lot of car control too…It would be an interesting battle for sure.

      3. Agreed Alexi, the ‘extra’ titles would be Alonso’s

        1. No. Lewis would be already a three time world champ…

          1. @ Becken: Nope!

  6. Vladimir Putin loves publicity like fish love water…

    1. Maybe because of Russian Reversal, Putin should get the second Renault seat next year and Petrov should be Prime Minister.

      1. Polonium 210 is on the list of FIA banned-materials.

      2. Interesting “spin” that Russians have on F1. :P

      3. In Putin’s Russia, F1 car drives YOU!

    2. Some people say that if Kim Jong Il was in the HRT, he would have won the Korean GP…

      1. Provided it had been in North Korea

    3. the putin propaganda machine is at full speed:

      a man like putin

      1. That is just brilliant, thanks for that, gave me a big laugh!

        1. actually, the first version i saw had some better lines.

          “a man like putin, not drunk all the time”
          et cetera

    4. Is it actually an F1 car? The wings are way too simple. To me it looks as if it’s Formula Renault or something

      1. i think the first car is a pre 2009/post 1997 f1 car, and the one you see later, with the fat nose cone is a formula renault (or some other formula/old f3 car)

      2. as above, 2003 renault R23 as driven by trulli and alonso

    5. Haha, how many takes do you think it took for him to pull away without stalling?

      1. Without Stalin?


          superb :D!

    6. In soviet Russia Formula 1 drives you!!

  7. Rencken had to have misunderstood the make-up of Ayrton’s two family names when he says Ayrton “dropped his surname”.

  8. It’s up to the team owner to decide what he wants, will he go for Number 1 at any cost or will play fair for everyone to enjoy so that at the end of the season no one can say that “They have won because of that”

  9. As much as I wouldn’t mind seeing Webber win, as a bit of an Alonso fan, I hope he wipes the floor with Red Bull next week.

    Red Bull are so full of it. If it were Vettel in the lead, he would have been their No.1 driver and we can look at the British GP for proof that.

    No it wasn’t letting a driver through, but I believe had Vettel been ahead we would have been hearing different things from the team.

    That’s just what I think. Could be wrong but who knows.

    1. woo, thats what I’m talking about baby.

    2. Well you can’t compare letting another driver though and taking the decision and moving one component to the other car. Letting a driver though is removing the other driver from championship contention, and is very unfair sportsmanship. Though in Silverstone, they only had a single front wing and they gave it to seb, because he was in front in points. What if they gave it to Mark? That would have been very unfair favoring, because Mark hadn’t had as good performance as Seb, and Seb was in front in points. That would make absolutely no sense.

      1. I think, that front wing was Webber’s car. So it was unfair to give it to Vettel.

        Giving parts to one person is same as letting a driver through. Only difference is that they want to favor Vettel not Webber.

        1. Whilst I’d normally feel that if they only have one of something, its not unfair to give it to the driver currently ahead in the championship, I have to agree with you that in this case it was unfair. They each had one and Vettel’s broke, it may not have been his fault but it was still his that was broken.

        2. Giving parts to one person is same as letting a driver through.

          No it’s most definitely not.

          1. @ Mads,

            just one small detail. It is not that one part “breaks” (or “get broken”) is that one driver “breaks” “his” part and gets the part from “other” driver who “did not break” it.

            Small, but perhaps relevant…

        3. It is not Webber’s car. Red Bull lets him use their car and paints 6 on it. Red Bull made two components, one broke. They therefore had to choose which car should have it. If they left it on the car Webber used there, he would have been favored with no reason. He didn’t have as many points, and before that it was clear who was the fastest of the two drivers anyway.
          It is not at all the same as letting another driver though. One thing is favoring, a whole other is chopping a drivers balls off. Look how it is going for Massa right now? After Hockenheim it have been downhill all the way.

          1. I don’t disagree on the point about it not being the same (lets face it massa has gone from being a couple tenths from alonso to seconds), but I disagree that it would have been favouritism if they gave it to webber, particularly as webber already had it!

            And don’t be picky over the fact that the drivers don’t actually own the parts, you know what we mean!

          2. Yes but i don’t see how something can be “theirs” because it was fitted to their car. You should rather look at it, as they bring two components, one breaks and then have to choose which car that is going to race it.

          3. but I disagree that it would have been favouritism if they gave it to webber, particularly as webber already had it!

            When the nosecone mount broke on Vettel’s car, they removed the nosecones and reinforced the mountings on both cars. So no one “had it” then, they didn’t take it directly off Webber’s car and put it on Vettel’s.

  10. This doesn’t mean Vettel don’t gift win to Webber. if it’s his will, it will. Red Bull and Horner and Mateschitz will not order not to do it. of course they will not say “Webber is faster than you” on radio. so All is up to Vettel.

    even if they lose, I don’t think it’s real defeat for them. they “could” win. they’re trying to resist againt current F1 culture and it’s their target, the defeat would be more effective than the victory. because Alonso’s title would be gifted from their enemey! so they don’t lose much except the title.

    1. Eggry,
      You are assuming that RBR is genuine when they say they treat their drivers equally. If they do not favor one over the other. They are definitely to be commended and are an example to all other teams.
      Listen to Anthony Davidson former F1 driver comments on 5Lives, Brazil review podcast. Let me know what you think?

      1. Thank you for a comment. first of all, I have to say I don’t believe they treat their drivers equally. What I want to say is it’s Red Bull’s surface policy. They want to be seen as pure sportsman but I don’t think they have pure motivation, especially about equality. They just act based on marketing principle such as “Don’t be Evil” of Google.

  11. Go Alonso go …

  12. If Vettel was in front of Webber in the WDC, I’m sure that Mateschitz would have no problems ordering the ‘Bulls to swap places on track for Vettel’s benefit.
    Anyway, so glad that we only have to wait until Sunday (or early Monday morning for us) for the last race.

    1. i agree 100%

      comment too short :P

    2. Spot on Stretch!
      Keep on spreading the truth brother. I do not understand people who do not get this. I am not a religious person but I am reminded of a verse in the bible.
      My lord they have eyes but yet they do not see.

    3. I am not too sure about that. He was the one publicly stepping in and saying, that he will not favour any of his drivers after silverstone when it was clear that Marko and possibly Horner were pushing Vettel to have the advantage.
      At the time it was a great boost and even Marko has toned down the anti Webber public behaviour after that.

      1. Agreed. If the shoe were on the other foot, Mark’d be told to “let Seb past for the championship” so fast it’d make your head spin. RBR can spin whatever tales they like and claim the moral high ground, but we fans (well not all of us anyway) aren’t quite that stupid.

  13. I said the same thing stretch said in a different thread.

    1. yeah i saw that after i posted it…

  14. It’s fairly obvious to me anyway that if it’s VET,WEB,ALO in that order this weekend Vettel will let Webber past, the team will have discussed this ahead of time and if they didn’t it’s only because it’s so blatantly obvious that they wouldn’t think Vettel thick enough not to know it. But management can run around and say ‘we don’t issue orders’, do it behind closed doors, and claim their gas doesn’t smell.

    1. Maybe but I’m not so sure.

      If they had been kept silent about it, they could do the switch and nobody would object. Now it will look awful if they do.

  15. He clearly hasn’t got the memo from Horner

    1. I would expect he has and now stamps his authority on “doing the sportsmanship like thing”.
      That said, I can hardly imagine Vettel not letting Mark past if they would be 1-2 with Vettel in front and with Alonso in 3rd at Abu Dhabi.

  16. Lmao! Red Bull Racing should get a Darwin Award…

    1. Charles Darwin would be proud

  17. Mateschitz’s policy is laudable, but hopefully it doesn’t cost them a title. I like that Christian Horner has said that what happens in Abu Dhabi will be because of the decisions the drivers made, but it would be quite poetic if Ferrari lost the title because someone used team orders against them.

    That said, it would be great to see a situation where Vettel winds his engine down and lets Webber through with ten laps to go (so that it at least looks legitimate), only for Alonso’s engine to vomit itself across the circuit or to have him tablge with a backmarker. You’d then have Helmut Marko trying to order Webber to move over for Vettel, Webber ignoring it, Vettel kicking himself and trying to catch Webber and a brawl on the podium when the Australian comes through.

    1. back under your bridge, you!

      1. You can’t deny that Vettel moving over for Webber in the final laps, only to see Alonso retire would create a situation a undred times more interesting tan it already is.

        1. With that i can fully agree!

        2. Assuming Alonso is 3rd but far behind the RBRs, and Vet waves Mark through, it would make me laugh to see Alonso put his car into the wall just to **** of Vet!

    2. if Vettel doesn’t let Webber through and Alonso is 3rd behind Webber i hope next year they cant compete and it all go’ tits up for them.

      i will NOT be happy if Alonso wins this title because of the fact he was gifted those points way back when it was illegal to do so.

      im with you Prisoner Monkey give it to the Ozzie while they can, at least then they have won everything there is to be won.

      1. If I were Vettel, I’d have gone up to Webber and said “Okay, I’m Red Bull’s man through and through. So if I win in Brazil and give them the Constructors’ Championship, I’ll back you up at Abu Dhabi”.

        1. Every time you comment, the same thing comes out of your mouth. Don’t you have any other point of view apart from poor Massa that has been screwed by Alonso and Ferrari? That poor donkey your riding back is broken by now as the “IMPRISONED MONKEY” is shackled on it with a one track mind, shouting “Alonso cheating” and “down with Ferrari”. Look like your day is going to be spoiled on Sunday and Alonso comes to mind.

          1. You get used to it. Its his own little bit of Russian propoganda :P

            Just hit him in his weak spot. Hamilton is out because he is worse than Alonso.

          2. I love the irony of you posting that in reply to his one comment that doesn’t involve Ferrari at all.

            Between your comments and infy’s incorrect assumption he’s a Hamilton fan, together you really ballsed that up!

          3. I love the irony of you posting that in reply to his one comment that doesn’t involve Ferrari at all.

            I love the irony that people think Hamilton is my weakspot …

          4. Well it just gives an insight into the mindset, doesn’t it? They love Ferrari and hate Hamilton, you hate Ferrari, therefore…

            It chuckles me, it really does. We get people who come on here and complain about UK bias and they don’t see the irony that their assumption it’s all down to who you support or where you’re from is just as ignorant.

      2. You are not happy for Alonso. So Vettel should let Webber through so Webber can win. Is this your point?

        1. If one driver moves over for another, then I have no problem with it – provided that the driver who moves over does it by his choice and his alone.

          1. Massa had the choice not to move, but he did anyway.
            This does not mean there were no team orders, they are issued every single race by every single team. Some have to do with strategy, some with driver position, some are coded into messages as to make them less conspicuous, some are not. Whatever the case might be, no amount of bile will make a difference in the standing at present.
            Also, you do seem to be quite outspoken about your hate for Ferrari, are you, by any chance, Nigel Stepney?

    3. You just hit the nail on the head!

    4. you can be sure that if Vettel moves over for Webber it will be in the final corner of the final lap.

      1. Will it? What if we have a repeat of Abu Dhabi, where Alonso is catching Webber in the final few laps? There’s a very real chance that if Vettel has a sizeable lead and is forced to slow, Alonso will be able to sneak through. No, if Vettel lets Webber through, he’ll do it in a way that makes sure that he can preserve second place for Webber. Just to be safe.

        1. you must surely mean a repeat of Interlagos…

          It’s going to be tricky anyway. And if they switch and Alonso can’t zero on Vettel, he may be tempted to stall the car in the last lap just to give him food for thought.

  18. Anthony Davidson former F1 driver stated on the 5 live Brazil review podcast. The very thing that we have all known for some time. That Helmut Marko, who is in charge of RBR, has done everything he can to block Webber’s title chances so that Vettel can have every chance of winning the title.
    It is absolutely insulting to have Deitrich, Helmut and Horner tell us they treat their drivers equally. They have every right to favor Vettel and get behind him at the expense of Webber.
    It is their team they control it. I have just lost all respect for them because of their disgusting display of hypocrisy toward Ferrari and the way they have treated Webber as inferior to Vettel. Wasn’t WWII fought to put an end to this secretive German/Austrian superiority attitude.
    Helmut there are a lot of Australians that pay your check by drinking Red Bull. You have a funny way of thanking them.
    I now drink Rockstar energy drink instead of Red Bull. As of late Red Bull just leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    1. “Don’t mention the war.”

    2. We should start a campaingn to boycott Red Bull drinks and make this company go belly up as a way to protest the disrespecful way they have treated Webber for the whole year.

      1. I already started.
        When I go into a liquor/convenience store. I tell the person ringing me up why I am not buying Red Bull. In small stores like that the person ringing me up is usually the owner or the person that puts the orders in for the different kinds of energy drinks they sell. Trust me it gets back to the Red Bull salesperson. I worked for a beverage distributor a few years back.

        1. I don’t drink energy drinks, but I live in Australia, and I see Red Bull around the place, but I never seen any sort of mention of Webber on Red Bull advertising or packaging or anything. I remember seeing a picture from the UK with a picture of Vettel on the packaging. In Australia I dare say Webber would be more associated with Canberra Milk than Red Bull. Which brings me to another point, say it was Coca-Cola Racing, instead of Red Bull Racing, there would no way that Coca-Cola would let Webber do an ad for Canberra Milk (unless of course they owned Canberra Milk). Given that milk is a drink it is a competitor to Red Bull.

          1. go to your local servo. most seem to have a 6 pack of red bull with webber in an RB5 on the cardboard packaging. but that’s about it. no posters/bilboards that i’m aware of…

      2. Monster Energy drink sounds appealing. Don’t mind supporting the likes of Ken Block or even Mercedes GP.

        1. Stretch once again I like the way you think. Ken Block grew up about 15 minutes down the road from me. We use to run in some mutual circles.

          Here is the plan, you and Ozzy run the official campaign. Our slogan is Drink Monster Because Red Bull is Trying to Cheat Mark Webber out of the WDC.
          You guys can work out my office in Newport Beach. We encourage all reasonable F1 fans around the world to switch to Monster because of the way RBR has treated Webber. In 8 months Red Bull stock plummets.
          We get Ken to buy the team for pennies on the dollar. Ozzy you take Horners job, Stretch you take Helmut’s job, Ken is the new Deitrich and we get Kobeyashi to take Vettels spot and we keep everyone else. As for myself, I will spend all my time at the FIA explaining why Kobeyashi in every race has to hit every car he passes while working his way up the field.
          I need to come back down to reality. For a second there like deitrich, Helmut and Horner I started to believe my own B.S. LOL

          1. lol XD

            I dont drink energy drinks. They are terribly unhealthy, and all they do to me is make me twitch XD

          2. Jeez, running is some mutual circles with Ken Block, life doesn’t get much better.
            Sounds like a plan apart from I’m Aussie, a bit hard to travel to Newport Beach every day. And if I had Helmut’s job, Webber would have Vettels ‘better’ front wing. ;) And I’ll miss schoolies being overseas, and I can’t miss schoolies after 13 years of schooling.

            But apart from these set backs, it will show the marketing power of not “equally” supporting the RB drivers.

            On the other hand, Red Bull does support ALOT of other sports (motorcross, BMX, rallying, motoGP, surfing and other niche sports I cannot think of atm) that I enjoy (even though F1 is probs the most enjoyable) and they would be the first to go when RB start losing profits.

      3. I already do! I never buy anything that is square headed. Period.
        As far as Webber, I can imagine I difficult must have been to wade all year in such hypocris.
        It shows the true character of an Ozzie: let’s stop the crap and let’s go a win us a WDC.
        GO Webber GO!!!

    3. Helmut Marko, who is in charge of RBR, has done everything he can to block Webber’s title chances so that Vettel can have every chance of winning the title.

      Marko might want Vettel to win Red Bull’s first WDC, but there’s not much he can do about it anymore. Mateschitz wants the race to be a race even if it costs them a title, and Horner has said he’ll support whatever play Webber and Vettel decide amongst themselves.

      The only problem is that if Vettel wins, there’s going to be talk of conspiracy against Webber. And if Vettel lets Webber through – even if he does it completely off his own bat – Red Bull will look like hypocrites.

      1. they just can’t win. maybe a double retirement would be the most diplomatic solution…

        1. Yuppers, let them not show up at Yas Marina

        2. They can. There’s a reason why Ferrari sent a coded message in Germany: because they know someone is listening. And they knew the world could very well hear it. If Vettel gets on the radio and says “Okay, guys, I think I should let Webber through” and the team replies “It’s your choice” (or words to that effect), they’ll be in the clear.

          1. Anything on team radio, no matter how innocent it may sound, can be a prearranged coded message. So, people may read those lines differently. “It’s your choice” might mean “Yield or else…” and people would never know.

            BTW, Ferrari’s “coded” message was awfully coded. It would have been the easiest thing in the world to prearrange any message like “your brakes are overheating” or whatever to mean “OK, you MUST yield now”

      2. And you actually take what they all say at face value? Rather selective in your cynicism, eh?

        1. Crikey, the Noise Level on this Blog is so high that I had to disconnect my speakers!

    4. You’re missing the vodka, it makes it taste much better.

  19. We now know who’s camp the boss is in.

  20. funny how no one thinks Webber will out qualify Vettel, because he has been able to do it some of the time and im quite sure he is going to this coming Weekend.

    by the way teams are aloud to change positions, in the rules this late into the championship to effect the outcome of the title, even if Vettel lets Webber through he will not be punished for doing so.
    when Ferrari did it, it was against the rules hence the fine.
    yeah i know stupid isn’t it.

    1. It’s not stupid at all. A driver should have the right to compete for the championship. Massa was still a possibility of winning at the time, however remote. Ferrari shouldn’t have robbed him of that; he might not have dropped out of the running entirely with that second place, but it only make his job harder.

      1. I respectfully but completely disagree. Why do you have the right to deprive a driver of a Victory if you do not have the right to deprive him from a championship?
        This is not a discrete function, it is a continuum. Quantitative and not qualitative.
        Either Team or driver should be clear to everybody from day one, then as an employee (a driver) you have the right to choose the company (team) you work for.

        1. Why do you have the right to deprive a driver of a Victory if you do not have the right to deprive him from a championship?

          But they weren’t depriving Alonso of a championship. Even if he finished second at Hockenheim, he’d still be leading the championship. And Alonso was not being deprived of a race win by finishing second because the natural race order saw him in second. If he was deprived of a race win, it was because he could not pass Massa on his own.

          1. It was a rhetorical question :-)

            Anyhow, I am reffering to the right to deprive VETEL of a victory at Yas Marina. And I understand that you are ok with this.

          2. Sorry for double post. Monsol, just below, goes to my point in a much clearer manner.

    2. The rules ban team orders that affect the race outcome in every circumstance. They are exactly as forbidden now as they were in the Hockenheim GP.

      That said, a 100.000 fine would surely not stop a team from doing it. And if they do in a subtler way than Ferrari did they’ll probably avoid the fine anyway, as it will be harder to prove.

  21. I find it quite suspicious that Webber engine ‘heated’ having being run only 19 laps before in Korea. I think there is some sort of manipulation here as to stop Webber passing vettel.

    1. I do too, however when you look back it would be easy enough to see why:
      traffic, and the high altitude and reduced oxygen means the engine is working harder to produce less. I seem to remember the BBC guys mentioning earlier in the year the turbulent air is effective out to about 2 seconds gap, which WEB was running at for most of the race.

      Having said that, I couldn;t think of a more deserving person to win than WEB, and by all reports he is one of the most respected drivers in the paddock and deserves a WDC. I would hazard a guess and say if he did win, he won’t come back.

    2. That was just as sudden as Vettel’s massive engine blowout in Korea. A perfectly fine engine, well inside the mileage lifetime just disintegrated over 20 seconds.

  22. Since Alonso supports Ferrari’s anything-goes-to-win philosophy he’ll have no complaint when Vettel knocks his ass into the wall in turn one and Webber or Hamilton grab the title. Eh?

    Also, was that an electric F1 car that Putin was, supposedly, doing 150 mph in? I couldn’t hardly hear a sound and the video must’ve been in triple slo-mo.

    1. Yes of course, they are installing machine guns in the Ferrari nose to blow up everything in front of them. Is that what you mean by “anything-goes?”

      1. No, I was referring to one driver giving a position to another. That is hardly ethical and certainly isn’t in the definition of racing. F1 should return to single car teams and eliminate this entire controversy.

        1. Taking out a driver on purpose is quite in another league. Not that it hasn’t been done before, anyway. But it was worth a full-year DSQ for MSC in ’97 (Estoril) even though he never admitted having done it on purpose. It might mean 0 points for the full year for both RBR’s. And anyway Vettel would probably not want to ruin his race and reputation for the benefit of Webber. They probably would use ALG as a rear gunner, he seemed overly keen to block both ALO and HAM at Interlagos.

          Ferrari will have nothing to complain about if the RBR’s switch positions. People may not like it but it has been done any mumber of ocassions you can think of, and by almost every team. And it will continue to be done so get over it, the most you can expect it that it will be subtler.

  23. Mel Hutchinson
    9th November 2010, 5:22

    Red Bull racing’s Dietrich Mateschitz actually said “We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari do.” Really? Does he remember the British Grand Prix? I’ll remind him that after Sebastian Vettel’s front wing broke in the final free practice session they took the front wing off Mark Webber’s car and put it on Sebastian Vettel’s car. Christian Horner said ” the team had a duty to hand the wing to the driver who was leading the championship.” Maybe people who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones.

    1. Spot on! Perfect analogy.

      1. Handing over a wing to handing over a win.. hey, it’s only one ‘g’ away! ;)

      2. I wonder how many times Alonso got the ‘new’ wing?

        1. Massa would have finished outside the points with the new wing anyways.

    2. The actual quote is:

      Therefore it came to me to make a difficult decision as to which car it went on. A situation like that is not ideal and it doesn’t happen very often. It went to Sebastian based on Championship position, his performance in P3 and the drivers’ feedback on the different front wings from yesterday.
      Christian Horner

      From this article.

      1. Yes, and the analysis before the qualifying showed that Webber didn’t benefit from the new front wing – his mechanic said that Webber didn’t even want it. So naturally RBR decides to put it on Vettels car. After the decision Webber or his fans and the British press use the event to create a situation where the team must give him better conditions in the future to make it look equal…
        But for most of You it doesn’t matter what Red Bull does – You hate them anyway. Even if they strongly favoured Webber and succeeded in getting him a championship after he himself threw his lead away in the wall in Korea, You would still hate Red Bull. You would somehow twist the events to fit Your scheme of Webber being almost always treated unjust in that team…
        Some of You are also criticizing Red Bull for not favouring Webber more in order to increase odds to win the WDC, but admit that if Vettel had the most points of those two, You would demand them to do exactly what they are doing now. So who is the hypocrites?
        I think it is the best medication against Ferrari lack of sporting morals to show the bravery to declare its “better to lose than to do a Ferrari”. This declaration sets Ferrari and the FIA’s scandalous small punishment in a blazing light;-)

  24. I hope all u guyz against the NO TEAM ORDER Red bull policy, understand this, Ferrari & Red bull as brands have a critical difference of objectives as to why they are in this sport, Red bull is a mass appeal brand and driven more less by marketing & Brand decisions whereas Ferrari (forget Santander & Shell) are driven by win a race regardless decisions.

    That’s why all this debate and word of mouth generated by team orders, ironically benefits both Red bull and Ferrari, in their respective markets, Red bull have proved beyond reasonable doubt to its consumers that they are sport, kool, fair and energy. On the other hand Ferrari consumers are like their brand, they are ruthless, gross, show offs, and don’t care about anything but winning, look at your neighbor who owns a Ferrari? U think he or she cares about sport, morals or fair play
    Red bull is 99.9 marketing…….THEY HAVE ALREADY WON
    The real losers are us the McLaren’s we have missed out on word of mouth and debate all of a sudden we don’t exist

    1. If that means Alonso wins the WDC, then good stuff!

  25. I Love Red Bull
    It gives you wings…
    No Wait….sometimes it takes away too…
    but i still love it….
    Go VetBer Go Webtel…

  26. Fantastic, Ferrari will have more opportunities. But I do not think they (Red Bull) will act like that.

    1. “Fantastic, Ferrari will have more opportunities.”

      After being beaten to the constructors title by a soft drinks manufacturer, they certainly need to be making the most of any “opportunities”, illegal or otherwise.

      Go Massa! But don’t forget those immortal words: “Fernando-is-faster-than-you”

      I can hardly wait for the: “If it wasn’t for blah blah blah” arguments on Sunday. LOL

      1. Of course there will be plenty of “if whatever…” arguments next Sunday, it’s simply human nature. And in such a contested championship there’s plenty of food for it. Any of the four present contenders would have the WDC several races ago if their driving mistakes/mech failures/arguable penalties had been avoided BUT not their rivals’.

        But anyway, give it enough “ifs” and “buts” and even Sakon YAmamoto could have won the present WDC.

        1. Or my granny LOL

  27. I hope everyone understands that he is only saying that because Vettle is second to Webber.

    We all know that his man is Vettel and that’s who he wants to win.

    Should Vettel be leading the championship i know for sure he would keep his mouth shut…

  28. in an exclusive interview with Peter Windsor.

    Even though I’ve been a Lotus fan since the early 1960s I was always a bit nervous about the whole “Lotus returns to F1” story this year because nothing – in the early months – seemed to ring true.

    Says Peter Windsor.

    It is to laugh.

  29. Relax everyone he’s just saying that to save himself being slapped with a $100000 ‘bill’ when they swap places at the next race. :-)

  30. Aussie Fan,
    THERE WILL BE NO TEAM ORDERS I can guarantee U THAT, RB(corporate) has achieved, its core marketing objective, however, what we need to watch out for is weather the RB racing team, has been sold into the RB(corporate philosophy) This is where the problem might be for team Red Bull. The internal customers i.e. the engineers etc might not be on the same page with the corporate mgt group and we can’t underestimate this conflict, marketing group Vs racing team…
    Ofcos the best scenario would be them winning the world championship as well…BUT NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF the Red bull brand ideology…remember Red bull is in so many other sport events esp extreme sport, this is only part of their overall strategy so they can afford to risk it (the f1 world championship)

  31. everyone seems to take for granted that RB will lead the race and they will be in a position to switch the drivers for a win and eventually a championship..but what if it won’t be like that?what if they have another Korea or if Webber finishes 4th or 5th and it would be enough (with Alonso having problems) or if they would all have to fight from the back, like last year?..

    considering how RB’s season has been in terms of them dominating races, it is a possibility they won’t have a dream 1-2 and that there are plenty of other permutations

    1. Well of course anything can happen, but everybody is commenting the RBRs in front, ALO behind situation because that’s the interesting one. And also quite a likely one, as qualis are going this year.

      ALO can also repeat the Korea grand chelem, or stall at start and be unable to race, or maybe the RBR’s and HAM can’t pass Q1 because of a sudden change in weather… etc. But then all excitement would be gone,

  32. redbull, atleast, have never gone off the track to manipulate the race results. Changing front wing was one thing and the time it happened the team had an option. Nothing illegal. I wonder if like those bed time my granny used to tell, alonso has major problems with the car on raceday and the redbull guys fighting for the championship…

  33. Yes Dietrich, you don’t manipulate things like Ferrari ie. openly for everyone to see. You do it more like McLaren…… :-)

    1. hmmmm…….where will this blatant “manipulation” of the results ever stop?

      I did hear that Hamilton got a slighly better steering wheel on his car for one race, and that they forgot to polish Button’s car for another. *rolls eyes*

      1. yes thats right VXR.. “Lewis, turn down the revs”
        Lewis – “has jenson got the same message” and then Button overtakes..
        don’t make me laugh..
        Lewis’ car does look more shiny tho,,,

        1. It’s not quite the same as: “Fernando-is-faster-than-you” is it. ;)

          Drivers are told all the time to use different fuel settings etc. Just like Massa was told to turn down is engine down IIRC. LOL

  34. “We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari” – Mateschitz

    He should say: “We don’t manipulate things… unless Vettel could need it”

    I like Alonso and Ferrari as a team, but if Webber wins he will be the driver who most deserve this title.

    Keith, off topic, but Mobile version it’s really a headache:

    Doesn’t shows sub-headings so looking for Daily round up is looking for the first one of the day and pray for having good luck.

    Comments: Replays are no grouped so it’s not possible to follow them properly.

    And the most important thing: I’m using an iPhone and your system do not allows me to change to full version.

    Conclusion: I’m visiting this site much less than previously and much less than I would like to.

  35. It’s a bit like the Americans thinking they’d bought Tower Bridge only to find the old London Bridge on their doorstep.

    I’d like to point out that’s an urban myth ;)

    I can’t believe this has so many comments already. There is no way Vettel is going to risk his master’s ire by not moving over if he has to and there’s no way Red Bull are going to tell him to. End of story. Anyone whining about Mateschitz and hypocrisy congratulations, you just fell for it like chumps. Like Dumb-Factor fans raging about whatever it is happened on that show on the weekend, if you’re angry you deserve to be.

    I remember in 2007 Max Mosley said he didn’t want Hamilton ton win the championship because it would be tainted by Spygate. If people are this bothered about Red Bull, perhaps all three of them should just crash and fail their way out of contention and hand it over to someone else. I would dearly love to see that happen, not just for my own sake but to see all of this gas blow up in people’s faces. It would be fitting if the championship was won not by letting people people past but to the only guy who’s made a pass for the lead (twice) on one of his rivals.

    1. and who couldn’t pass Hulk on track while some other driver passed both of them

    2. How would he risk his bosses ire, he had their whole hearted support when he crashed into Webber in Turkey. Helmut Marko isn’t going to get angry at Sebastian when he’s the only success story from his very expensive Young Driver Development Program.
      Anyway, whether they make the switch all depends on the situation in the race. If Vettel is leading and Alonso is 3rd, how will Seb anger his bosses if he isn’t going to win the championship anyway. Webber may not be in favour at Red Bull at the moment, but they would still rather him than Alonso.

      1. I didn’t realise Helmut Marko was Team Principal or the owner.

        If Seb doesn’t give the championship to a Red Bull, his real bosses will be angry. Forget the PR BS.

    3. It would be fitting if the championship was […] to the only guy who’s made a pass for the lead.

      Great idea. Forget about getting first to the flag and scoring the most points, that’s kiddie stuff. Let’s hand it over to the one who overtakes the most. You won straight from pole? bad news my friend, you might as well have stayed at home.

      Why not give the WDC to the most poles or the most flaps instead?. Better yet, decide the WDC on a round of hold’em poker, or give it to whoever gets the most friends in Facebook. They would save the expense of going through all the races.

  36. I have to admit: the RBR bias for Vettel is becoming ridicilous:

    Seb obviously gets the better material! The DNFs are all self inflicted just to make Mark look bad! Spoiled brat, 60+ points wasted and still in the running.

    The psychical pressure on Mark (who is driving the fastest and most reliable car in the WC lineup but still having to fight for the WC to the last race) must be enormous, slowing him down even more it seems! Poor guy.

    And still, even though he needs all the help he can get, the ‘straight talking aussie’ shows his soul & feelings (and Fabios i assume) to the world over and over again! Thats class & character!

    Webber for WC!

    1. Seb obviously gets the better material

      He’s lost 70-odd points to mechanical failures this year. Webber has hardly lost any by comparison.

      1. I wasn’t sarcastic enough?

        1. Nah, you laid it on pretty thick. Still, though, seems to me like Webber would know better than us what the atmosphere in the team is and outward signs of RBR support have all gone to Vettel. In any case, if not for completely unprovoked mistakes they would both be way ahead of the competition.

          1. Could you imagine that RBR (Horner, the mechanics, etc.) feel a little bit responsible for the 60+ points lost?

            Not easy to say: sorry we ****** up your season – and Mark would like to overtake. You don’t mind right?

            Webber, by playing the press card like that, made stuff really difficult for Horner.

          2. Like I said, mechanichal failures or not, if they didn’t make totally avoidable mistakes on the track they wouldn’t be in this situation. Reliability is what it is. Vettel has only himself to blame if he isn’t champion already, same goes for Webber. Besides, how many times have we heard it said that some drivers are too hard on their cars? perhaps there is a reason Vettel’s had more failures.

      2. For the shake of being sarcastic (there is always something beyond it), by your rationale the deserving winners are Senna, Di Grassi, et al. because they have lost up to 450 points so far due to bad mechanics.

        I think that you cannot justify anything on the machine failing since the machine is ultimately the biggest factor in this sport (or do we think that any one of the 4 contenders would have done anything on HRT/Lotus/Virgin)?

        And reliability (even if we assume no driver influence) is as much part of it as an f-duct or the flexibility of the wings.

        1. You can only compare team mates like that: equal material.

          Considering the difference in reliability between both RBR drivers its ridicilous that Mark still drives against Seb for the WC.

          1. IF (big if) materials for team mates are equal, allowing you to compare, then….. Sebs destroys machinery big time compared to Marc…

  37. People seem to forget that Red Bull have come a very long way in a very short space of time. Torro Rosso were ahead of them or at least their equal only 3 years ago and both drivers are a credit to the sport.

    To say Alonso wouldve won the title twice at Red Bull is missing the huge point that his mind set when not number one is deeply flawed. Hes a perfect match for Ferrari.

    Great season made better by Red Bull not favouring one driver. Maybe thats forgotten also.

  38. All RBR have spoken of the last few days is team orders and I’m not sure if I still admire their stance or am finding them a little desperate for keep going on about it although no doubt, it’s the journalists constantly putting the question to them.

    I still think it’ll be Webber who wins. I’m never superstitious or believe in luck in life but when it comes to F1 things (bar the odd year) tend to balance themselves out so I can’t help but feel Fernando will lose and RBR won’t swap and Webber will still win. Although given that Webber’s had no failures this year it would be bonkers if they did switch and Web was set to win and then his engine blew up but that would be so cruel.

    1. Kimi's Ice-Cream
      9th November 2010, 11:18

      Mark’s engine blow up is long overdue, it’s unfair that only Seb gets them. Unless it’s something wrong in Seb’s driving style, for which there’s no evidence. Harpooning a backmarker Valencia style or a bad start (his speciality) are some other possibilities. A skid in the wet Korean fashion is however kinda unlikely in Abu Dhabi.

      Alo got his engine blown up last Friday (harmlessly for him, lol) so he’s not due another one until well into 2011.

      1. Vettel has only ever had one engine blow up. The others were a gremlin and a brake failure.

        Alonso’s engine was at the end of its natural life-span, it wasn’t a freak failure.

    2. I really hope Webber doesn’t win the title. Out of the top 3, he is the least deserving of the title this year. All year, he has used the media to manipulate the team to favour him, although the only reason he has been ahead of his team-mate is because of his team-mate’s reliability issues.

      A driver who has had the fastest and most reliable car for the entire season, should not be whining for team orders.

      And a driver who has been out-raced and out-qualified by his team mate for 5 races in a row does not deserve the title at all. While Vettel and Alonso haven’t been perfect all season, atleast the reason they are not ahead in the championship standings can be traced down to mistakes and car failures in case of Vettel and mistakes and incompetent car in case of Alonso. Whereas Webber has no excuse. His team might not have made the best judgement post Turkey, but that did not affect him the slightest. He is a street-smart fellow, and quick with one-liners – not bad for a number 2 driver. The Turkey debacle did not slow him down psychologically at all. Even the British GP debacle ultimately played into his hands. Yes, he is not Red Bull’s chosen son, but he has been given the same equipment as his team-mate, except for British GP – which ultimately did not affect him at all.

      1. You are right, except the story with the front wing – Webbers mechanic said that he didn’t want it, because he didn’t improve with it.

  39. you cant speculate that they’d have moved webber over if vettel were leading. Or rather, you can, but it has no particular credibility. Yep, Vettel got a part at Silverstone but as Keith has stated, Webber has had the reliability. The perception maybe one thing and often perception is everything but what happens in front of the camera doesnt necessarily mirror what goes on behind it.

  40. RB have put themselves into a stupid corner.

    Most people prefer Webber to win the DWC. If Vettel suports webber, they are evil and liars. If Vettel goes for himself, they are stupid and unkind to hero-webber.

    A right decision at the right moment, like say… germany, makes you look focused and team aware. People like consistency.

    1. They also like to have a sporting contest and not something that smacks of big business manipulating the outcome.

      Ferrari already lost ‘it’s’ championship to a soft drinks manufacturer. At least let us have the pleasure of watching drivers actually race for the other one.

  41. I believe the car’s actually a Prost that Putin’s driving… 2002 I THINK.

  42. Actually, 2001 perhaps…

  43. Fair comment from Dietrich. They’re not exactly going to be strapped for cash next year or in the future. They have fingers in many pies and i get the impression F1 is high on their agenda. I also can’t see them suffering as a result of this years success next year. Ferrari and McLaren have been in the same boat so I reckon we will be on a similar level with all three top teams next year…plus Mercedes?

  44. When RB get 16 Constructors Championships they can swagger around the paddock and say things like..“We don’t manipulate things like Ferrari”.

    Until then it’s all crotch stuffing!

    1. This comment = WIN.

  45. we don’t manipulate like Ferrari does since Sebastian is not leading the championship.

    1. Ferrari are only doing what they usually do. Unfortunately for them it gets noticed a lot more than it used to, especially now that t’internet’s around. People don’t like it, and F1 history to spotty teenagers and casual viewers means nothing.

      Ferrari were lucky to get away with what they got away with. And they know it!

  46. “…return to one car teams”

    what period was that then?

  47. RB needs to show Ferrari some respect. The F1 grid would be empty without the red cars and nobody would watch them win a title. They should be happy competing with Ferrari for it. I wish I could write exactly what Niki Lauda stated before the start of the race on German TV. It was something like “A ferrari title is adding value to the titles won by other teams before or after it”.
    Another point is that if they didn’t have a such a superior car this year thanks to AN, their 2 “champs” would be fighting eachother in the midfield (of course no team orders…). While if you see what Alonso is doing compared to Massa, you see a truly fantastic driver’s performance. Or Kubica, or Hamilton or even Kobayashi. I want to see how RB will act in a tougher year.
    cheers, t

    1. That’s funny! :)

      I remember that for a period of 21 years Ferrari didn’t win a drivers title. For most of that 21 year period they were the laughing stock of the top teams. People actually started to feel sorry for them.

      But they battled on, and people respected them for that. But now there’s an arrogance about them that leaves a bitter taste. It wouldn’t bother me too much if Kimi’s title was the last they have (or should I say, he has) for some time.

      Also, IMO Alonso’s 2010 performance is merely average compared to his previous 4 years performances.

      Great driver that he is, I do hope he doesn’t win this one.

  48. I hope RB can accept the fact that the title was within their grasp and they blew an opportunity to claim both the championships. They should’ve backed Webber ever since he was ahead. Even now they should back Webber. Carrying a holier than thou attitude isn’t going to help RB. Who knows what next year might bring. Maybe Mercedes will step up or Mclaren or Ferrari might get better. Really lame by RB in my opinion.

  49. I’ll clear up the confusion here and now: Ferrari are cheats and everyone knows it. Even the fevered Ferrari fans… they put it to the back of their minds and make lame, lame excuses, but they know Ferrari are cheats. No other team has brought so much shame and ridicule to a sport. Long live the honorable gentlemen of sport, rather than these ‘win at all costs’ show-off prancing-ponies.

    1. Let those who are without sin cast the first stone…

      No other team has brought so much glory and excitement to the sport, and all Ferrari bashers know that even if they put in the back of their minds. Without Ferrari would be a sorry joke and everybody knows that, ven if they hate it.

      Pretty much every team has always tried to “win at all costs”, but when they fail they take on the Scuderia, because it wins. Sour grapes…

      In every race you can see plenty of red Ferrari flags, but the Macca and RBR flags are nowhere to be seen. QED.

      1. When Ferrari cheated, they were far from leading, and many of us, who got very angry with the cheating did so out of principle, not because it was Ferrari who did it or whatever. I fully respect that Alonso is a very very talented driver, but his sporting morale is even worse than bicycle riders using EPO. Why? Because indications are that all the bicycle riders in the top uses some kind of doping. Alonso did all he could to make Ferrari issue the TO, despite the rules and the fact that other teams don’t just do it every now and then. It is not a question of You are leading the series or not – it is a question of rules. I watched F1 all year under the assumption that the rules are fixed and stated. When I suddenly realised they are not, I feel deceived by FIA. The punishment should have been the Black Flag to both Ferrari drivers in Germany… Why? Because the worst consequence for Ferrari had Alonso tried to overtake Massa could have been a crash taking both cars out of the race.
        But wait and see – Abu Dhabi will surprise us all with an unexpected result.
        The reason why You see all the red flags is that if You ask the average person what they think of first when You say Sports Car, they think of a red Ferrari – the brand is an Icon, a beautiful Icon with a great history. So much more sad, that they disgrace the name with this unsporting conduct.

  50. We Want Turbos
    10th November 2010, 2:51

    Just my 2 peneth! Red Bull favour Vettel, fact. But they didn’t break any rules. Ferrari cheated! End of. The comments are hypocritical but RB had to choose 1 driver to take the wing. If memory serves me correct the wing failed (wasn’t driver caused) so as vettel is team leader he got the wing. So on this point you can understand why the team did it. Having said all this go Webber 4 title Alonso/Vettel don’t deserve it for me!

  51. Start a poll? What lap will Vettel pull over for Webber?

    1. last lap of course.

      vettel wont pull over until he is absolutely sure he cannot be world champion.

    2. Last lap, (in case of being 1-2) and they will not be allowed to overtake eachother till then either.

  52. All sorts of outcomes can be: Alonso tangles with Lewis and they both suffer. Vettel gets another DNF due to technical reasons or he and Webber tangle up and one or both of them suffer. Lewis can still win this, but I agree its not very likely.
    The worst would be – IMO – if some midfield or backmarker driver error causes one of the leading contenders to lose his chances, either by blocking during Quali or by accident during the race. Or if it happens to Alonso I could argue that it sort of evens out the advantage he gained from the cheating in Germany.

  53. What,with all respect, a load of rubbish. Ferrari want Ferrari to win the WDC and constructors championship and their workers do anything that attains that goal.

    If you have to lay down then you have to lay down. The rule, a daft one, was brought in hurriedly because most of the media dont get F1 and a few bookes and armchair fans whinged. Anyone who knows the sport properly accepts a driver may have to support the other depending on the scenario. Ferrari called it right and Massa is a patsy frankly.

    The cycling analogy is ridiculous and comparing it to drugs cheats is idiotic in the extreme.

    1. Antonyob: You claim that Ferrari workers do anything to win? What will then be the next rules they break? All sporting events have to be governed by a set of rules, otherwise it will turn into a gang war. And as a paying spectator I have a legal right to expect the rules to be obeyed and that the governing body do their utmost to make sure the participants play the “game” within the rules. FIA has let us all down on this. And it doesn’t matter that YOU think that everyone knows this rule is only a show to satisfy some of the fans and the press. Do You also think that many other rules and laws in society only applies to others or don’t apply at all? If a rule is there, then the FIA must enforce a fair punishment for breaking it. End of story.

  54. were you at Hockenheim then? did you pay money for a ticket in germany and feel robbed??

    i draw the line at this rule. its quite simple, you have 2 cars, you use them how you wish. “legal right” wow, you think? i dont. And what sort of argument is “if you let them do this they will break any rules” – its no sort of argument thats what.

    What alot of emotional bluster. Never been a ferrari fan but i think i will cheer them just a bit more if Alonso wins Sunday. And perhaps F1 could do with losing a few fans. The armchair tail has been wagging the f1 dog for too long.

  55. This goes to show the difference between a competitive powerhouse such as Scuderia Ferrari and a young and lucky team such as Red Bull. Mateschitz is already happy with what they have accomplished in such a short time.

    The truth with Ferrari is that Alonso has more in himself to win a drivers championship than Massa. Because if they have equal skills, then we would be having six drivers racing for the WDC. Of course, that’s not what is happening now. And Alonso would have passed his teammate, anyway. A 1-2 finish may be lost right there, so what do you do? They’re driving literally the same car, aren’t they?

    If that were so, Ferrari would not have been penalized in Germany. And Horner would not be blaming the team’s directors if Webber and Vettel lose to Alonso because they decided to support both drivers. And it’s true that both their drivers are talented. That’s the Red Bull situation. They almost killed each other in Turkey, and right there it looked liked a confirmation that they are supporting Vettel more than Webber. Now if only Webber held his pride and mouth, then we would have seen differently. This is quite similar in McLaren. But it is not the same at the Ferrari camp.

    Many spectators think they know how to run a team and make crucial split-second decisions because they are never part of it. And they would have never imagined the consequences involved and the pressure during that time. More so, they never know what is going on. Sure, they are protesting that the spirit of racing, or the passion of the sport has been violated. But, racing is not a cheap past-time. If you want to survive and race another grand prix, you need to be realistic and you gotta count all the dimes and cents. They want a further penalty for Ferrari simply because they don’t like Ferrari. Losers. This is even after the WMSC has spoken.

  56. In fact, he’s lying because his Rally Team, i.e. RedBull Citröen, have used team orders all this year and they are world champions and they don’t seem to worry.

    This year, one of their drivers, made a fault intentionality to begin the first and clean the road for Loeb who was the first because it was his turn to go first. Then he went second because of this blatant team orders.

    You can say that in Rally it is allowed and I say yes, it’s true, but RBR it’s not talking about rules but about being fair and sportive, which is really to get ill.

    Everybody is paying now for the words used before. The only one who is keeping his position is Ferrari.

    1. Are team orders illegal in rallying?

      Also, I thought they were just a sponsor, they don’t actually run the team?

      1. IRC have team orders, not sure about the other lot.

        Here is what Fiat (yes Fiat) were considering back in September in Sanremo.

        “Team orders could happen but the most important thing is to be on top of the ranking at the end of day two of the rally,” said Basso. “So far this season I’ve not had a good feeling with the car but I hope I can gain a better feeling here in Sanremo, which is a race I like. We have the wide-track Abarth Grande Punto, which is an improvement on the previous car, especially in the dry.”

        And I don’t think that RedBull actually own Citroen do they?

      2. Well, it’s really different if you are not the owner, that’s true. But a team also represents its sponsors values.

        And about illegality of facts:

        You can say that in Rally it is allowed and I say yes, it’s true, but RBR it’s not talking about rules but about being fair and sportive, which is really to get ill.

        I keep on saying that they have that strategy just because how the things have gone along the year and what things they said along the year.

        I’ll also say:
        After watching how things went and how they have their drivers and the championship (about 3 reaces ago) they decided to talk loud about Alonso and his “victory” in hockenheim, then now they are trapped in their own trap, because they probably have to do another blatant “Massa” next sunday. And if they don’t do that and lose the championship nobody really will think they are the best, or the more sportive team on the world.

  57. Aaaaanyway…. Ferrari still cheat and everyone knows it. Like I said, the fans dress it up with all sorts of do-dads and shiny things and talk of ‘spirit’, lame lame lame, but it’s still plain old dirty cheating, and anything won by a cheat is worth far less than coming last honestly. If Alonso wins he’ll know this and I take comfort from that!

  58. Antonyob: You are not even able to quote me correctly, and Your arguments are flawed and non coherent… You are clearly a Ferrari fan who don’t want to accept the fact that Ferrari blatantly broke a rule in F1, thus giving them an advantage in the points. And the rule was even invented because Ferrari used TO too blatantly in 2002, so of all teams, they should have stayed on the right side of this rule…
    And my opinion isn’t necessary worth less, even if I never go to watch an F1 race live. But now it happens so that I was in the rain in Spa – great race, by the way – and I’m very glad that I didn’t know the lame FIA verdict over Ferrari’s cheat until after the race in Spa.
    If a team is able to spend the money and resources to attend the F1 series the least I can expect is that they are able to read and understand the rules, and accept a punishment, when they deserve one. Instead Ferrari did all they could to force FIA into leaving the punishment with the 100 k$.
    Why don’t You try to argue why FIA didn’t punish Ferrari with more than a fine of 100k$, that would be something new to me?
    To Kayumanggi: In the case where Ferrari cheated, they talked to Fernando more than once and they made the TO many times to Felipe, before he yielded – no crucial split second decision over that. So don’t try that excuse – in this case it doesn’t apply…

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