How Webber climbed from 18th to third

76 comments on “How Webber climbed from 18th to third”

1. 

   Eggry (@eggry)
   17th April 2011, 15:06

   Webber’s lap times are just insane. after first stint of hard tyre, he was faster than anyone on the grid. I’m sorry I underestimated hime before the race. Now he should improve quali pace.
   1. 

      d1sciple (@)
      17th April 2011, 16:54

      His laps were very comparable with Hamilton for the second and third stints. The final stint his is much faster as he is on soft tyres. I wonder if anyone will change up the strategy and suffer the hard tyres at the beginning of a race, to gain the advantage that Webber had at the end of it. It might be a faster overall strategy if the early lap times are closer on heavier fuel loads.
      1. 

         Mack41 (@mack41)
         17th April 2011, 18:27

         Thats what I’m hoping for. And since they used the same tires they qualified on would there be any gains in starting on a more used pair of hards instead of softs? For instance using hards for two hot laps in Q3 instead of just 1 to give them extra wear
         1. 

            Michel S. (@hircus)
            17th April 2011, 20:25

            Using hards on Q3 will likely put you close to 10th; why not use the hards from Q1, and not run at all on Q3?
            1. 

               Patrickl
               17th April 2011, 21:38

               A Red Bull on the hard tyres might be faster than most cars on soft tyres.
            2. 

               BBT (@bbt)
               17th April 2011, 21:48

               No it wouldn’t work if you were in the top ten, it only works because you are out of the top ten in the fastest car in the race. The track then comes to the soft tyres.
            3. 

               Mr draw
               18th April 2011, 15:14

               Webber used hard tyres in Q1, but for some reason he eliminated himself in that session. If he had made it to Q3, he would have been 7th at least, as the Toro Rossos were 2.5 seconds slower than Fattle. If he had been 7th in the qualify on hard tyres, his winning chances would have been pretty high, I think.

               In the race he didn’t suffer too much from his first stint on hard tyres, as he was fighting much slower competitors. So being in the rear of the field isn’t only disadvantageous. ;)
2. 

   MinusTwo (@minustwo)
   17th April 2011, 15:13

   Fantastic information. Thanks Keith, this was a lot of work, methinks.
   1. 

      Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
      17th April 2011, 15:17

      Thanks very much, appreciate it :-)
      1. 

         damonsmedley (@damonsmedley)
         17th April 2011, 15:44

         @MinusTwo – PlusOne! :P I agree! Keith, this is absolutely fascinating. I just ticked the top four drivers and I love how they fluctuated throughout the race, but all somehow bunched up at the end. Webber’s lap chart is incredible. That line just falls from the sky! :D
      2. 

         BasCB (@bascb)
         17th April 2011, 17:43

         I very much agree as well Keith. Great graphs to give deep insight of how it worked!

         Great to see that blue line below the water for most of the race to quitly pop up right at the top end to get on the podium.
         1. 

            Scary Terry (@hatebreeder)
            17th April 2011, 17:59

            I think, keith should take over Formula1.com.
      3. 

         sumedh
         17th April 2011, 18:30

         Great work, is it possible to zoom into the final chart (All lap times) and analyse only a selected number of laps?
         1. 

            Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
            17th April 2011, 19:00

            You can filter out drivers but not periods of laps.
            1. 

               F1iLike
               18th April 2011, 11:01

               How long have the “select none”-button been there? Is it new or have I just missed it forever?! Anyway, Good! ;D
            2. 

               Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
               18th April 2011, 11:15

               Yeah they’ve always been there, at least since the move from the old Flash charts to these ones :-)
            3. 

               GeoffR
               18th April 2011, 13:35

               Hi Keith – what tool do you use for these graphs, and where do you get the data?
   2. 

      Monk.who.sold.his.RedBull
      18th April 2011, 15:33

      Yupp! Super-Data! Super-Presentation! Super-Keith? ;-)
      Now if only I cud see the same details for the 2005 Jap GP, that Kimi won( from what? 16th? ) – now, that wud be fabulous !!!!!
3. 

   Bigbadderboom (@bigbadderboom)
   17th April 2011, 15:16

   Great race by Mark, does make you wonder how far the red bulls would have finished in front had they had a front row start and got away clean. Tremendous pace for a 3 stop considering how far back he was.

   Love this stuff Keith, great work all.
4. 

   moose
   17th April 2011, 15:19

   jarno faster than alonso. tho he did it 10 laps after alonso did his’s.
   1. 

      Eggry (@eggry)
      17th April 2011, 15:29

      Amazing discovery! I’m really suprised by Lotus
      1. 

         damonsmedley (@damonsmedley)
         17th April 2011, 15:41

         Yes! Incredible! I can barely believe that! :O
         1. 

            Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
            18th April 2011, 1:07

            Oh my gosh, I had to scroll back up to just make sure that was true!

            Wow Lotus!

            And good for Trulli!
5. 

   Ivan Vinitskyy
   17th April 2011, 15:21

   Webber was very fortunate to run in clear eair for as long as he did. Had he been stuck for 10 laps, this strategy wouldn’t have worked.
   1. 

      elliotstan (@elliotstan)
      17th April 2011, 15:36

      As DC said during the race though “strategy is the key” Red Bull needed to work to get him in clean air. He was able to get those insanely quick laps by making sure that after a pit stop he was in the clear air. Indeed very lucky though. I was thinking it would have been great to see a yellow flag towards the end of the race and see Webber try and overtake all the leaders. Despite going for him (I’m Australian) I didn’t think he had a chance really. To salvage third from his start is really unbelievable. Vettel was unlucky with his radio problems but I think the KERS problems on both the Red Bulls is going to become more of an issue as the races go on. Both Vettel and Hamilton were lucky that there was not another 2 or 3 laps as I wonder if Webber would have been able to catch them. Would be good to look at the replay and see if he had of pitted for his last set of tyres one or two laps earlier if he would have been able to make up those spots and win.
      1. 

         Cranio
         17th April 2011, 18:21

         I think Alonso was the reason. Webber took 6 laps to overtake him, what costs his victory.
         1. 

            Patrickl
            17th April 2011, 21:42

            Webber got past Alonso quite quickly.

            Just check the race progress chart above.
            1. 

               Cranio
               18th April 2011, 19:29

               Before, Alonso got past Webber (after his stop). These 6 laps I mencioned envolve all that laps.

               Alonso was sixth at lap 40. Webber got back sixth at lap 45.
6. 

   MarcusAurelius (@marcusaurelius)
   17th April 2011, 15:29

   Add 21 seconds for a working KERS and he would have won?
   1. 

      Patrickl
      17th April 2011, 21:43

      Not to mention all the overtakes which would have been so much easier with KERS.
7. 

   Captain Phingerspex
   17th April 2011, 15:31

   Fabulous work Keith. I love these kind of graphs, where you can really get a feel for what’s going on – and special thanks for making them interactive, to clear away the info we don’t want to see at a particular time.
   Well done!
8. 

   Scalextric (@scalextric)
   17th April 2011, 15:56

   See how Webber was the only car to try this hard-compound-first strategy in this race?

   Last year, a strategy like Webber’s would not work, as overtaking even with a tire wear/grade advantage later in the race was not enough to nip through the field as he did yesterday. This year, DRS, KERS and more frequent pit stops by other cars make this strategy much more viable. We may see more Q1/Q2 qualifiers start races on the harder compound after this performance.
   1. 

      Enigma (@enigma)
      17th April 2011, 16:11

      Maybe even the top 10. Don’t rule out someone like Kobayashi, Perez, di Resta or Sutil to try hards in the Q3, as they’re not fast enough to qualify much higher anyway.
      1. 

         Scalextric (@scalextric)
         17th April 2011, 17:11

         Entirely possible. But note that Webber struggled in his first stint against lesser cars on softer tires. Starting 10th on hards might lead to more positions lost than Webber’s two spots, as the competition is better nearer the top.
         But then if more and more mid-pack teams use the hard-first approach on a regular basis, that will become less of a gamble.
      2. 

         BasCB (@bascb)
         17th April 2011, 17:47

         Petrov might have done something like that as well, he had free choice as well due to him not running in Q3
   2. 

      Icthyes (@icthyes)
      17th April 2011, 19:48

      Agree, last year it only worked out to get someone in 13th into the points. This year it could work to give you a shot at the podium.

      It reminds of Monza 2009 where only three cars went for 2-stops (of course we had race fuel qualifying) and everyone else went for one-stop because they knew they couldn’t compete for pole (except the Brawns who were just playing the long game). If only we could get rid of the Top-10-qualifying rule about tyres.
      1. 

         Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
         18th April 2011, 1:15

         Yes yes yes, If they would get rid of that rule it would make it even more exciting!
9. 

   Tom
   17th April 2011, 15:59

   Congratulations Mark Webber, excellent race of recuperation. Congratulations to Keith by the work.
10. 

    Kev
    17th April 2011, 16:31

    If the race was joy, this analysis is ecstasy! Thanks Keith. Got my ID working too:-)

    The joy of having a race weekend is doubled when we have analysis like these available on the net.
11. 

    TommyB (@tommyb89)
    17th April 2011, 16:59

    Surely after seeing how much Webber closed on the guys in the final part of the race it’s worth a gamble for some to Qualifying on hard tyres.

    Then you are able to run Hard, Soft, Soft, Soft like Webber did and pick off a load of drivers at the end of the race.
    1. 

       phildick (@phildick)
       18th April 2011, 12:39

       I hope so, that’d be interesting to see if someone can repeat that trick. Button, for example, could be the one.
12. 

    Ady
    17th April 2011, 17:04

    Did anyone else notice that the BBC coverage has started using lap time graphs similar to these. I wonder where they got the idea… lol. Nice work Keith.
13. 

    Fixy (@)
    17th April 2011, 17:20

    Felipe was three/four positions ahead of Fernando with a few laps remaining. His last stint was too long and this caused him to end up just in front of his teammate, even if with 15 seconds of margin.
    1. 

       BasCB (@bascb)
       17th April 2011, 17:51

       More or less the same as Vettel then. Only difference being, that Alonso also did not have a 3 stopper.
    2. 

       Patrickl
       17th April 2011, 21:46

       That’s the difference in strategies for ya …

       A driver can make a stop less and get ahead, but obviously the cars who do more stops will close right back up at the end due to their better laptimes.
       1. 

          Todfod (@todfod)
          18th April 2011, 8:51

          True. The two stoppers planned on getting ahead, just maintaining a constant pace, and hoping that the three stoppers would have way too overtaking to seriously challenge them at the end. The three stoppers were planning to catch overtake drivers on worn out tyres with ease, and were pushing hard through out. Honestly, if the hard tyres degraded slightly lesser, then 2 stop would be the better strategy. The 3 stop worked well for aggressive overtakers and quick drivers such as Lewis, but it didn’t work for tyre managing coasters such as Jenson.
14. 

    Dafffid (@dafffid)
    17th April 2011, 17:26

    Had he known how well it was going to go he could probably have done 2 laps less on hard tyres, and 1 more lap in stints 2 and 3 and pinched 2nd. Great effort
15. 

    Aussie Bear
    17th April 2011, 17:54

    notice how no one from red bull management was getting excited over Webber’s thrilling drive and instead were tearing their heads apart over their failure to hand Golden Brat Vettel another win on the plate.
    1. 

       infy (@infy)
       17th April 2011, 18:34

       Thats because they lost no matter what way you look at it. When you have a car that is 0.8 seconds quicker per lap and you fail to win then you know you have done something very wrong.
    2. 

       David BR
       17th April 2011, 23:10

       Webber:

       Congratulations to Lewis. It was good that someone finally… of course Seb is in the same team, but he’s been on a phenomenal run and we’re all here together fighting for victories.

       Only Webber would say that! Obviously 100% true, he needed Vettel checked given he couldn’t quite catch him himself in the race, but hardly taken from the RBR team PR handbook.
       1. 

          Adam Tate (@adam-tate)
          18th April 2011, 1:23

          Agreed, I loved seeing Webber speak his mind like that in the interview room! He was merely reading the writing on the wall, but he made it quite humorous to boot!
          1. 

             nee-ann
             18th April 2011, 5:34

             vettel laugh when webber said that…..
16. 

    coxy
    17th April 2011, 18:10

    Cant believe there is no news on alonso and his little DRS open in the wrong place affair! any news on that keith?? grat stats keep up the good work!
    1. 

       infy (@infy)
       17th April 2011, 18:42

       Same thing happened when the underneath of Lewis’s car broke in AUS. FIA media blackout :P

       I’m guessing it was a glitch in the FIA system and they are not saying anything because it would embarrass them.
    2. 

       bosyber
       17th April 2011, 20:59

       Andrew Benson@BBC explains what the FIA said about it: it activated 600 meters later than it should, and it also deactivated 600m later; From the video it seems the auto disable at breaking kicked in to close it over the corner though. That’s still a bit of a worrisome software glitch, it staying open after the driver expects it, even with that safety working(or did Alonso override it for the corner?).
17. 

    Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
    17th April 2011, 18:53

    Pirelli publish it after each race.
18. 

    Copersucar (@copersucar)
    17th April 2011, 19:25

    Most people are happy that Vettel/the RBRs didn’t win today. So, they are not invincible, alright. BUT:
    -Mark Webber started 18th due to a catastrophic mistake in Q3. Nevertheless, after an awesome race he finished in the podium, and looked like he could have won in a few more laps.
    -Seb Vettel had a poor start, his KERS didn’t work and his 2-stop strategy was a disaster. Nevertheless he was 2nd.
    -It still seems to me that no team/driver can beat the RBRs this year unless they fail on their own. Last year they would have had the win in their pocket by midseason if it weren’t for unreliability and sophomoric mistakes. Their reliability seems to have improved now, and I’m afraid this year they will be unstoppable.
    1. 

       brum55
       17th April 2011, 19:35

       I agree, despite being on the wrong strategy Vettel was only 5s from victory and Webber after being 20th after lap 11 was only 7 secs away. With these obstacles only an inspired Hamilton could beat them. If they sort out the problems with Webber’s car he will be the only person who can challenge Vettel unless McLaren and Ferrari make huge improvements.
       1. 

          nee-ann
          18th April 2011, 5:38

          i wonder what will happen if rbr can fix their kers, then rbr will flying and noone can catch them…..
19. 

    box this lap (@sebashuis)
    17th April 2011, 19:33

    I think the days are actually using this stats to analyse the race too, alway great to see this.
20. 

    butterdori (@butterdori)
    17th April 2011, 19:38

    I think it also helped that he had less fuel when he was running on softs

    Lower fuel = less degradation and thus more grip for more laps + Webber could really take advantage of the superior pace of soft tyres on a light car
    1. 

       Copersucar (@copersucar)
       17th April 2011, 21:17

       There’s a big problem with the softs. They seem to be about a second faster than the primes, and that’s fine. But they also should last much less than the primes, and actually last almost the same. So the strategy is unbalanced: every driver tries to stay in the softs for as long as possible. For a balanced act, the options should last about half, or the primes quite a bit longer.
21. 

    squarebear47 (@squarebear47)
    17th April 2011, 20:12

    Great job Keith, this data is put together very well!

    Webber was flying in the late stages of the race. Extremely entertaining
22. 

    We Want Turbos
    17th April 2011, 22:46

    Excellent work by Mark. This is exactly what he needed to lift him, I’ll bet my house on a webber win in Turkey.
    1. 

       Dan83
       17th April 2011, 23:21

       I sure hope so!
23. 

    BROOKSY007 (@brooksy007)
    18th April 2011, 1:00

    Webbers drive was the highlight of the race, along with hamilton winning; not vettel again!
    Where did heidfeld go wrong, he was on hards to start with also, wasn’t he?
    All the doubters out there who don’t believe in webbers ability or age really need to shut it. He has had some of the best drives in the last year or so, brazil(09) monaco budapest spain silverstone china and don’t forget about germany in 09 after getting a drive through he still won! He has talent and its about time everyone started to realise it.
    Its a shame it took him so long to get into a decent car, because others outside the f1 field would have realised it sooner!
    I’m not saying he is the best driver in the field, but his true grit, never die attitude and spirit is something to be admired.
24. 

    Toro Stevo (@toro-stevo)
    18th April 2011, 1:10

    Webber’s was a strategy that would only work for a top-10 qualifier without the stupid Q3 tyres rules. Make them use the Q3 tyres at some point in the race, but forcing everyone in the top 10 to use them first limits the strategies available.

    Also, I don’t understand how doing one qualifying lap (and an in- and out- lap) does so much damage to the tyres. I realise they go at full pelt, but the tyres last at race pace for 15-16 laps. Surely a qualifying lap would just knock 2 laps off their lifetime, or is there something I’m missing.
25. 

    Lord Ha Ha
    18th April 2011, 7:10

    No KERS for Webber hence no twin KERS-DRS passes in the easy zone.
26. 

    Bobby
    18th April 2011, 8:10

    Why Autosport abandoned this kind of graphical analysis is beyond me.

    Great work to whoever owns this website and does those graphs.
    1. 

       Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
       18th April 2011, 8:55

       That’d be me and you’re very welcome, glad you like it!
27. 

    phildick (@phildick)
    18th April 2011, 9:55

    But other odd-numbered started had problems: look at Fernando Alonso, Sergio Perez and the Toro Rossos in the chart above.

    Perez started 12th, didn’t he? Though the theory looks good, +6 positions gained for the right-hand starters, but on the other hand Schumacher itself did +5.
28. 

    CCF1
    18th April 2011, 11:07

    Thanks for posting this, it makes working out strategies much easier!
29. 

    Funkyf1
    18th April 2011, 12:47

    Firstly thank you Keith. Your hand work makes analyzing the race a joy. It’s interesting to see the different times from each driver over the entire race. Webber showed true form, that car is phenomenal ever without KERS and without Vettel.
30. 

    Ben Bailey
    18th April 2011, 13:12

    Sorry i havent read all comments but it seems to me that Ferrari really dropped the ball yesterday with Massa. He had the pace to get on the podium in china if hed been on a three stop strategy and would have utterly trounced Alonso has Rob made the right call for his baby. He was ahead of Lewis into the first stops and had shown real pace. No reason to think he would not have been right there duking it out with Ham till the end.
    Nando ought to take not and get his act together. Massa is an Istanbul specialist! Might put a few quid on him…
31. 

    Ben Bailey
    18th April 2011, 13:21

    Following Webbers logic on tyre stratergy imagine where Petrov could have come starting from 10th if he’d also gone Hard, soft, soft soft. Maybe best stratigy is to get into q3 then dont run and start on hards…
32. 

    wasiF1 (@wasif1)
    19th April 2011, 5:13

    After the first couple of last never in my worst dream I would have predicted Webber to be there on the podium. A true Grit drive by him.

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