Vettel believes he can “do even better” with Newey

F1 Fanatic round-up

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In the round-up: Sebastian Vettel says it’s an “incredible experience” working with Adrian Newey:


Top F1 links from the past 24 hours:

Vettel and Newey stay together (Sporting Life)

“This is where Adrian is so brilliant. He gives me confidence and he designs world-beating cars. It is an incredible experience to work with him. I think we can do even better.”

Button: Pace cost titles not glitches (Autosport)

“the most difficult part for us was before the summer break when we just didn’t have the pace. The reason why we were not fighting for the title isn’t just the reliability issues, the pace in that period of time wasn’t good enough compared to our competitors.”

Better F1 sideshows can boost tourist spending: Iswaran (Today Online)

“Enhancing the side activities to the Formula 1 race here will be key to the Republic’s aim to draw in more tourist dollars, Second Trade and Industry Minister S Iswaran has said.”

American football: Austin’s obsession with college game (The Independent)

“You could host the whole F1 season in Austin and football would still be king. As [former National Football League] player Ricky] Williams puts it: ‘If you want to be an actor you go to LA, if you want to be in fashion you go to Paris or New York if you want to play football you come to Texas.'”

Comment of the day

@Tim believes the importance of the the different between engines is overrated:

The main differences between the engines (as described by David Coulthard and Rubens Barrichello a few years back) is drive-ability, i.e. where the power is produced an for how long.

The engines have pretty much been the same since ’06, the only change being a 1000rpm drop in the regulations. The engine suppliers are all most likely maxing out what one can get from a 2.4l V8.

The biggest factor that separates the teams top speeds is the amount of downforce they put on the car on any given weekend. The aim is to get as much downforce with as little drag as possible, so as to be quick down the straights and through corners. It’s about time people give the whole engine-top speed thing a miss.

From the forum

Happy birthday!

Happy birthday to Michael S!

If you want a birthday shout-out tell us when yours is by emailling me, using Twitter or adding to the list here.

On this day in F1

And happy birthday to Red Bull’s star deigns Adrian Newey who turns 54 today.

Image © Red Bull/Getty images

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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61 comments on “Vettel believes he can “do even better” with Newey”

  1. Agree with @Tim r.e. the COTD. Look at teams like Lotus and Red Bull: their lack of straight line pace barely affected their overall lap time. It did make them vulnerable on longer straights but the benefits of more downforce in the corners makes up for this and outweighs the need for straight line speed.
    I think people (myself included) see the measure of straight line speed like the 100m sprint. It’s the easiest way to compare the cars and ensure boasting rights but is no way indicative of a car’s true performance.

    1. Sorry I fail to see comprehend how a car’s top speed is anyway relative to a 100m sprint? The best 100m sprinters would be the ones that reach the fastest speeds.

      If one were to compare a marathon runners top speed with their time over a marathon distance I could maybe start to see a comparison but I cannot agree that “the measure of straight line speed like the 100m sprint. It’s the easiest way to compare the cars and ensure boasting rights but is no way indicative of a car’s true performance.”

      1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
        26th December 2012, 2:47

        Usually the engineers have to find a balance between top speed vs fastest aceleration. Talking about the same engine, a car should be configured on either being very fast in 100m (best acceleration but losing top speed) or acelerating “slowlier” to get a higher top speed. At least that’s the way the games have shown me

      2. Sorry didnt explain that fully. In regards to acceleration vs top speed, just as Omarr states, and also the “prestige” (more fan related) that comes with it. That, and it’s also a tangible measurement that the viewer can see more easily than a lap time. A complete lap will showcase the fastest car/driver combination but laptome is compromised by driver mistakes/traffic/conditions other than the car, whereas a straight line speed trap is black and white in who is fast and who’s not.

        1. I’d have to correct you regarding top speed being non-dependent on a driver.
          Your top speed will be influenced by how much speed you carry through the corner that precedes the straight and how well driver exited the corner. You will often see driver’s talking wide line through last corner before starting their timed lap in quali.
          They wanna make sure they have the best possible exit out of the corner in order to get as much speed as possible down the main straight, even if it means they take a line that would be slower time-vise if they did it on the timed lap.

          1. Drop Valencia!
            26th December 2012, 22:44

            Not in the current era, because the gears are limited, they are optimised for the race and not top speed, the cars are on the top speed limiter for many seconds on the longest straight, drivers could afford to go slower through the corner and still hit top speed, but ofcourse they take a wide line on the qualy lap because it is advantageous to cross the startline at the higest speed possible to reduce the time accelerating to the limiter.

    2. And the car with the lowest top speed isn’t always the slower car to cover the straight distance. As said above, a car which has beter acceleration and reach lower top speed could have beter time over the straight than a car with a beter top speed. Those top speed figures are only usefull to know who is fulnerable to undertaking, that’s probably the only thing we can extract from there and even that is not always that clear …

      1. Right, and RBRs lower gearing should help at the start with full tanks, possibly part of how SV manages that 2 sec gap by the 2nd lap, Ferraris blinding starts make it all rather inconclusive though.

        1. but then you can get a situation like Abu Dhabi where Webber had a poor start and wasn’t able to pull any gap on Alonso, which made him easy pickings down the second straight (and with no DRS).

          The Ferrari’s top speed also helped in India setting up the overtakes of McLarens (Lewis first if iirc).

          A classic example of the higher top speed vs. higher downforce/corning speeds was in Texas with Vettel and Hamilton. As drivers, both were at their peak for the season, and both cars were absolutely hooked up. But you could see the delicate balance and trade off of the two different set ups, and how their set ups worked to their advantage in different parts of the track. Unfortunately for Vettel, once Lewis got by, the sector the RB was slower than the McLaren (S1) was the one leading up to the DRS zone. And without DRS, there was no way to get pass Lewis down the straight – even if Vettel got to his top speed quicker, ultimately he didn’t have the speed to get pass the McLaren.

    3. @nackavich Thanks for agreeing with me.

      And @keithcollantine, it’s @timi :) not @tim !

  2. Traverse Mark Senior (@)
    26th December 2012, 0:39

    I have been guilty of talking absolute nonsense on many occasions (the whole Vettel Helmet design post springs to mind). The truth is, Vettel is easily among the best of his or any generation of racers and I have no doubt that he will be remembered as the best German F1 racer of all time, ahead of Schumacher. Even if he doesn’t surpass Schumi’s record haul of 91 wins, he will be placed ahead of Schumi in the all time rankings due to Schumacher v2.0 tarnishing the career image of Schumi v1.0.

    As for Vettel experiencing future success with Newey. Quite frankly, no matter where Vet races (be it at Red Bull or Ferrari in the near future) he will be successful, because he won’t settle for anything less than the best (Just like HAM and ALO).

    1. @tmcs88

      Schumacher v2.0 tarnishing the career image of Schumi v1.0.

      I see no reason for that. Everybody knows Schumacher lost a step during his first retirement. And even so, although he was outclassed in every field in 2010, in 2011 and especially 2012 he was more than capable of keeping up with Rosberg. Not bad for a 40+ driver.
      It’s dissapointing that when the Mercedes was quick, Schumacher constantly got the short end of the stick with reliability and such. His points tally could have been so different if he just had a little less bad luck this year.
      Anyways, it’s not like it was painful to see Schumacher still competing. He didn’t crash his car every 2 races or get constantly beaten by slower cars. He didn’t lose a lot of speed. He lost his ruthlesness and edge.

      And perhaps a little of his good fortune.

  3. No Button, the reason McLaren and you weren’t fighting for either title WAS glitches, and reliability, and your pace rather than the teams.

    1. The mistakes and the reliability problems seemed to hamper Hamilton much more often than Button. Button certainly wasn’t exempt from them, but they hit Hamilton harder and far more often than they did him. As for Button’s lack of speed in the middle of the season, I think the blame should be shared equally between him and McLaren. His problems started when they introduced the first major upgrade for the MP4-27, and they resolved themselves when the team put the second upgrade on. Meanwhile, Hamilton was having no such problems. That, to me, suggests that the first round of upgrades were a problem for Button, and I distinctly remember a theory being pu forward that suggested that the upgrade fundamentally altered the way the car had to be set up.

  4. Actually McLaren won in Canada, then had a decent pace in Valencia until Hamilton DNFed from 3rd or 4th, and only after that they had one poor race in Silverstone, before returning to Hockenheim as the fastest team. After that they had the fastest car for 4 races in a row. They had a small dip in Korea, Japan and India, before returning to Abu Dhabi, Austin and Interlagos as the fastest team.

    That is, if you go by Hamilton’s performances. If you’d go by Button’s, you could be forgiven for thinking he was driving a Force India.

    1. If you’d go by Button’s, you could be forgiven for thinking he was driving a Force India.

      I would have guessed Button to be driving a Marussia in Monaco.

      I dont know what Jenson was complaining the Mclaren was the quickest or 2nd quickest car throughout the season. Jenson lost it due to HIS OWN pace.. and nothing else

  5. For sure, McLaren wasn’t always the fastest car, just like no other car was, but Button could still have become the world champion without the downs in his performance, technical glitches and his share of bad luck.

    In Bahrain, Button lost potential sixth place because of a puncture. He finished ninth in Spain, even though the car seemed to be capable of winning the race, as Hamilton’s best time in Q3 showed. He scored zero points in the next two races, while Hamilton scored 35. He finished eighth at Valencia as Hamilton was taken out by Maldonado, while fighting for third.

    Button finished sixth at Hungaroring, a race that was won by Hamilton. He lost potential 18 points at Monza due to fuel pressure issues. He was taken out by Kobayashi on the first lap of the Korean GP. Finally, he finished only 5th at Austin as Hamilton scored another victory.

    Button also says that his tyre problems helped McLaren understand the tyres better, which might be true but it clearly was never their intention to use Button’s car as a guinea pig in the races. So I think this is just downplaying McLaren’s technical problems and Button’s own underperformance.

  6. “This is where Adrian is so brilliant. He gives me confidence and he designs world-beating cars. It is an incredible experience to work with him. I think we can do even better.”

    I’d like to see Vettel in a poor or underperforming car, like the F2012. I’ve always believed that cars like these are far more representative of a driver’s ability than good cars – anyone can win in a good car, but it takes real talent to succeed in a poor one. Then we’d see where Vettel really stands in relation to the rest of the grid.

    1. Look back at 2007 and 2008…

      1. It’s like people forget he was ever at Toro Rosso.

        1. No one has forgotten. Some (myself included) are just not convinced by a single, once off performance.

          1. He was 8th in the final standings in 2008.

          2. @infy
            He had plenty of extremely convincing performances in his TR days. If you didn’t pay attention, then that is your problem. It doesn’t say anything about his driving.

          3. @prisoner-monkeys @infy In 2008 Vettel did not have a front-running car and put in several excellent performances. I put him fifth in my driver rankings that year. Those who say he’s never performed in an uncompetitive car or the total of his achievements was a “one off” either weren’t watching or are being extremely uncharitable.

          4. @keithcollantine – Ah, but I’m curious to see how he would handle such a car now.

            When Lewis Hamilton joined the grid in 2007, I had little love for him. He was talented, yes, but he was also quite privileged and something about him just rubbed me the wrong way. It wasn’t until 2009 that I warmed to him, and that was because he had such a poor car, but he rallied the team to him and turned McLaren’s season around. Fernando Alonso did the same thing this year; you’ll remember I have been deeply-critical of him in the past, but my attitude toward him changed this year.

            That’s what I want to see from Vettel. I want to see how he acts in a situation where he has a bad car now that he’s been in the sport for a few years and has three World Championships to his name. I’d be particularly interested to see him in this situation given that the entire team is structured around him.

          5. @prisoner-monkeys

            I’d be particularly interested to see him in this situation given that the entire team is structured around him

            Ferrari is totally structured around Alonso. And if you noticed, Alonso didn’t win the championship, and in many ways was flattered by the reliability issues of the McLaren and the RB (not just Vettel’s problems, but Webber’s in India and Texas).

            Less folks forget, the RB wasn’t very good at the start of the season and of the front running cars, it suffered the most due to the regulation changes. At the first race Vettel started 6th on the grid and finished P2 and had an outstanding pass on Rosberg on the outside at turn 10. He qualified P6 in Malaysia and then P11 (finish P5) in China. In China RB ran even ran two different exhausts. For those that think Vettel is totally favored, Vettel ran with an older exhaust and Newey spent his time on Webber’s car with the newer exhaust (you could say Vettel was allowed to run the older exhaust due to his status, but he wasn’t getting the “best” equipment or attention).

            Vettel is acknowledged as one of the hardest working drivers on the grid and he comes in early and stays later than most other drivers. So if Hamilton can be credited with turning McLaren around in 2009 (I’m sure Paddy Lowe had nothing to do with it :) and Alonso this year, well I’d say Vettel did as well (and Mark Webber too).

            So Kudos for Vettel on his success and not losing sight of the prize when it would have been easy too at the start of the season they had, especially coming off of 2011.

            I gotta say, it’s sort of Bizarro world when folks are saying drivers need to move from winning teams to lesser teams to “prove” themselves. Alonso certainly didn’t go to Ferrari in hopes of driving the F2012. He went there expecting to have a dominant car so that he could rack up championships ala Schumacher. I give him props from his performances with Renault in 2008 and 2009. There was a truly a midfield car that he pulled good results from (Singapore notwithstanding).

            Newey’s great, but Paddy Lowe’s no slouch at McLaren.

        2. Torro Rosso, the team that Newey gives his hand me downs too ;)

    2. Klaas de Vries
      26th December 2012, 13:38

      It’s not that Vettel isn’t a top driver or that he doesn’t deserve his titles. It’s just the (apparently general) feeling that he won them too easily and only got in the title fight when his cars were clearly superior than those of his rivals. The only thing that Vettel can “do even better” is to mature. We’ve seen from him as many brilliant drives as stupid mistakes.

      1. I disagree. The only title he won easily was the 2011 one. This season hasn’t been easy at all, and in 2010 he didn’t lead the championship until the very last moment. How is that easy? Yes, the Red Bulls have been fast, but you still need to go out there and deliver as a driver. Look at Webber, even when Red Bull was at its best, he only got 3rd place. Just because the Red Bull is a championship winning car, doesn’t mean it’s a championship winning car in the hands of every driver. It still has certain characteristics that fit some drivers and don’t fit others. In 2011 that all came together perfectly, in 2012 it didn’t for the most part.

        I do agree that he needs to mature some. If things aren’t going his way he tends to start moaning or make mistakes. He’d be an even better driver if he could get rid of that.

        I’m sure people would love to see a driver win a WDC in an inferior car. Except that’s not going to happen, even if Alonso had become world champion, the Ferrari wasn’t that bad. What it lacked for qualifying pace (which might be setup related) it made up for race pace and reliability.

        1. Well what is an “inferior” car? The Ferrari might have been pretty close on race pace but it was way off in qualy and starting from behind being almost on the pace won’t get you ahead. The Ferrari wasn’t as quick as the McLaren nor the Red Bull over the course of the season. Sure, it was more reliable, but 2 retirements with a faster car in around 18 of the 20 races, is definately an advantage.

          1. @oel-f1, most of that qualifying deficit was compensated for before the first corner. I’d love to see Webber driving the RBR with Ferrari clutch/gearbox.

        2. I’m sure people would love to see a driver win a WDC in an inferior car.

          It’s never happened, it’s never going to happen. And I have no great desire to see it happen.

          1. Well, technically the McLaren was the fastest car this year so Vettel managed it.

          2. davidnotcoulthard
            27th December 2012, 10:44

            Because if it’s to happen it’s going to be 1982-esque – which surely won’t be good – at all?

      2. The only thing that Vettel can “do even better” is to mature.

        I think every driver on the 2013 grid (who is not a champion) needs to mature. Hamilton, Alonso, Kimi are all immature to different extents. One cannot use twitter, one wants to remind the press all the time about how his car was only faster than Caterham, Marussia, HRT and the other took the inexplicable decision of pricing himself out of the market in 2010 only to realize his mistake and return to F1. Button is probably mature!

        But somehow, I never see any comments saying that these other drivers need to get better too. It is always Vettel who is looked at as the immature one.

        1. I couldnt agree more. Alonso has to learn how to truly lead a team. If I were a Ferrari engineer, I would not be happy at all with some things he said. Open your mouth in private, man. Like Schumi always did.
          And I believe Hamilton will grow and learn a LOT from Brawn. Then he can move to Ferrari. :) If Vettel is not there already.

          1. I think there’s a lot of exaggeration about Alonso criticizing the F2012. I remember that after almost every qualifying he used to emphasize that the car must be improved on a one-lap pace whereas he used to be bullish about the it’s pace in the race – that was the whole idea for those who wanted to understand. Read his interviews carefully, I don’t think any other driver praised his team so much (maybe Vettel too) this season.
            His comments are nothing different from Kimi’s in 2009 when he was repeatedly stating that the F60 lacked downforce or Vettel’s after the Q2 elimination in Spa.

          2. If I were a Ferrari engineer, I would not be happy at all with some things he said.

            If I was Alonso I’d be even unhappier with the underwhelming car they served for 4th year in a row if you count 2009. :)

            They need to make a real front runner like McLaren and Ferrari had in 2007 and 2008. If you don’t wanna hear people complain about the quality of your work, do a better job next time.

        2. Maybe I should have been more specific when saying about the need to mature – I was refering to his driving style, the guy is excellent when leading from pole but he still has some lessons to learn about coming from behind without crashing into someone or overtaking illegaly. And I don’t mean to say that Vettel is worse than this or that driver – I’m just pointing out what I think his weakness is.

    3. @prisoner-monkeys – I too would like to see Vettel on his current form having to compete in a genuinely midfield car, like this year’s Force India, at some point in his career. Primarily to dispel this notion that he isn’t a good driver but also because I think it would be genuinely entertaining, as per Alonso this year at the start of the season.

      1. I think it would be genuinely entertaining, as per Alonso this year at the start of the season.

        I very much doubt that. Vettel lacks Alonso’s ability to drive beyond the limits of a car. he will do exactly what the car is capable of, but no more.

  7. Good COTD from @Tim I’ve really bought into that philosophy on top speed either, sure it helps with over-taking but it’s by no means representative of entire performance.

  8. Vettel can do better only i f Newey designs good car, otherwise he is midfield driver.

    1. Vettel is definitely one of the top 5 drivers on the grid. If they all shared equal equipment I don’t believe Vettel would come out on top.

    2. It certainly was very nice of Newey to design a “good car” in 2009, just by coincidence at the exact same time as Vettel started driving for Red Bull. Newey’s masterful design ability was absent for the previous decade, including the years when Raikkonen drove his cars.

      The belief that Vettel is a glorified Damon Hill has no rational foundation, so it’s not possible to reason people out of it.

      1. @jonsan, not being critical of your observation but it is only in the last few years that Neweys specialty ,aerodynamics, has become virtually the only area for development and therefore the prime recipient of development budget and effort.

        1. @hohum

          What a nonsense argument. When Newey joined Red Bull the engine freeze was already in effect. His first Red Bull, the RB3, had the same Renault engine that helped Renault become double world champions the two years before. Everybody had the same tyres just like they do know.

          So please, tell me more about how teams were more than capable of overcoming aerodynamical deficits with other parts of the car.

          1. I, and I believe jonsan, were referring to Neweys career prior to joining RBR. @f1fannl

    3. @alokin – Every driver needs a good car if they are to do well, not just Vettel. Otherwise they wouldn’t challenge for titles and would be a midfield driver.

      1. Agreed for Vettel but Hamilton and Alonso can do better even if car is not good.
        Vettel has been very lucky and if you give top 5 drivers same machine then Vettel will hardly win.

        1. 2008 Vettel driving Toro Rosso is as good as Alonso driving Renault (talk about luck or more than luck in both Japan and Singapore).
          Webber drives the same Newey car, imagine a Red Bull team w/o Vettel, would Newey enjoy as much recognition?
          Looking at Webber’s standing from last 3 years (3, 3, 6) you can tell Red Bull’s relative performance has been decreasing.
          Alonso was not mature then, but Webber did beat him in F3000 2000 with same spec car.

          1. Alonso’s ponits in 2008 were almost double of the points scored by Vettel.
            Webber is just a supporting driver, he will never win a WC. Vettel’s moaning on team radio” do something, help me” does not sound as a true champion.
            He wins only if qualifies in top 3, otherwise ..?

          2. @alokin

            Alonso’s ponits in 2008 were almost double of the points scored by Vettel.

            Vettel had more points than the entire Red Bull team and Bourdais combined.
            The Renault was a far better car though. Even Piquet jr. managed to score a podium in that thing…

            Webber is just a supporting driver, he will never win a WC.

            True, but if the Red Bull is the determining factor shouldn’t Webber at least come in 2nd? Barrichello managed to do that when Schumacher dominated the season. Maybe it’s not all down to the car?

            Vettel’s moaning on team radio” do something, help me” does not sound as a true champion.

            But Alonso’s “This is ridiculous” or “O.K. That’s enough” or “Unbelievable Michael” or “Did you see that?” does…
            And let’s not forget his poor performance the last few races where even Massa outperformed him…

            He wins only if qualifies in top 3, otherwise ..?

            You mean he must first win a race from 4th? Seeing as Hamilton has never won from lower than that… Seriously. Where does the horse poopoo stop. If he wins from 4th next year it must be 5th, and so on and so on.

            On a side note, it’s rumored Vettel will have exclusive text on his car next year. Supposedly the Geox to Renault bit of the car will be replaced with “They see me rollin’ they hatin’.”

          3. Also that particular Toro Rosso was in fact a Red Bull, Newey design baby.

          4. @cyclops_pl – And that particular Red Bull wasn’t even close to the frontrunners, given that it was 7th in the WCC.

            @alokin – Well if according to you, Alonso/Hamilton can do well when the car isn’t good, then so can Vettel as in 2007/08. If Vettel has been “lucky” with his cars then so has Hamilton, who’s had a competitive car for his whole career except for 8 races in 09.

          5. Very good point, Webber did beat Alonso in F3000. Mark Webber does not get the recognition he deserves in F1 these days. That`s probably because there`s so many supporters that started watching F1 in 2007. How should they know how good Webber was and still is when he`s compared to Vettel all the time.

            I remember Mark Webber from the time he was driving a Jaguar, and he was just great. He put that car in positions it was not supposed to be and was considered among the best.

            But Webber was unlucky and spent years and years in midfield-cars, but he was still doing great with what he had at his disposal. His real misfortune came when he finally found himself in a competitive car from 2009 and onwards. Webber would have had at least one Championship to his name if he hadn`t been teamed up with Vettel. Webber had the fortune of being part of a WDC-winning team, but had the misfortune of being teamed up with a driver that has beaten most records within his grasp in F1 up till this point in his career.

            Many fanboys try to convince themselves and others Vettel is not that good, and that means putting Webber down at the same time. If Vettel is no good, Webber must be bad.

            I got news for you, Red Bull is not collecting loosers, Red Bull only support winners. Look at every sport Red Bull is part of, they support the winners and let the loosers go. To Red Bull Webber is a winner, he`s given them Constructors Championships on an assembly line. Furthermore people should consider Webbers strong character. How ofteh haven`t we seen a driver crumble when he`s beaten by his team-mate and never return. They are broken once and for all. Webber on the other hand is beaten year after year but still has the character to go out there the following year and mount a credible challenge to his teammate, that says a lot about his character. He refuses to lay down even though he deep down probably knows he`ll need a lot of luck to beat Vettel.

          6. kimiwillbeback is spot on.

            People’s views on Webber is a perfect example of the lengths some will go to not give any recognition to Vettel.

            “Anyone could win in the RedBull” — except Webber?
            “Webber’s a straight shooter” — except that he is secretly rolling over for Vettel per team orders?
            “RB doesn’t give them the same equipment, etc.” — see point above, Webber knows but doesn’t say anything, or Webber doesn’t know because he’s not bright enough?

            I wonder how Webber must feel at times about this. If you diminish his teammate, you are basically saying he’s even worse, and much much worse.

            Webber is a phenomenal driver and when he’s on, he is as unbeatable as any of the top drivers on the grids. Where he suffers is with his starts and with consistency over a season. And he can psych himself out in a race when things go wrong. For example, he had a horrible start in Abu Dhabi and from there his race went downhill with clumsy attempts at overtaking to just plain running into an incident he should have seen coming (and he even admitted to seeing coming “yeah, I probably should have let them fight it out” or something along those lines). In contrast, Vettel gets turned around in Brazil and fights his way back. That’s the difference right there.

  9. Why Red Bull keeps winning. Plus talent, of course:
    “At this team we keep egos and politics to a minimum and try to keep an atmosphere where there’s no finger-pointing.”
    -Adrian Newey, as quoted in SportingLife

    1. where there’s no finger-pointing.

      Unless someone gets in the way of Vettel.

      1. Drop Valencia!
        27th December 2012, 4:14

        Alternatively, if no-one gets in the way of Vettel…

    2. Actually there is plenty of finger pointing – usually Vettel skywards!!!

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