Vettel apologises to Webber for ‘win I’m not proud of’

2013 Malaysian Grand Prix

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Sebastian Vettel apologised to team mate Mark Webber after ignoring a team order not to overtake him during the Malaysian Grand Prix.

Vettel passed Webber in the final stint of the race despite having been told to hold position.

“I owe an explanation to Mark and the team, and that’s it,” said Vettel after the race. “Everyone else has the right to their own opinions.”

“For sure it’s not a victory I’m very proud of because it should have been Mark’s.”

“I think it has to be said that we respect each other and there’s nothing that has to be, in that regard, has to be fixed,” he added. “Obviously I owe him a proper explanation, I tried to give it in front of everyone and I will try again just face to face.

“The situation is as it is now but I think we don’t hate each other so I don’t think that’s anything to worry about for going into the next couple of races.”

Vettel indicated he did not realise what the consequences of his move would be: “I messed up today and I apologise for that but right now I want to say the truth.”

“I wasn’t aware of it otherwise I wouldn’t take that much risk to pass someone I’m not supposed to pass at that moment. But just before we got out on the podium I had a very quick word and it was quite a shock and not easy for me to admit but that’s the truth so I want to stick to the truth.”

Webber did not hide his displeasure with the outcome of the race, saying: “I was completely reassured twice that we were not going to abuse the cars on each other because it was very easy for us not to get any points for the whole team”.

“But it’s very hard for everybody to understand the whole scenario,” he explained. “There’s a lot of people that think they know the whole situation but unfortunately it’s not possible for them to understaned everything.”

Webber said the situation “puts a lot of heat on certain people” within the team. “Unfortunately there’s no rewind button now so the scenario is a bit more challenging for certain people.”

“It’s three weeks to the next race, we’re fortunate we have three weeks. I’ll catch some waves in Australia on my board and I think this will be good medicine for me. I had a lot of thoughts going through my mind in the last 15 laps of the Grand Prix so whether the medicine is enough, we’ll see.”

2013 Malaysian Grand Prix

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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574 comments on “Vettel apologises to Webber for ‘win I’m not proud of’”

  1. firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@)
    24th March 2013, 11:46

    True racer! Sneaks the victory and then apologise.

    1. What a joke!

      “Really sorry Mark, my bad. I apologize as this should be your win”.

      Vettel says as he walks away with 25 points!

    2. Also shows the total disregard he has for his team.

      1. despite all the wins, titles he’s won with them . I thought Red Bull were coy and selfish ,vettel is one degree higher. Although , It will be interesting to see how they deal with him .

        1. No different from senna or Schumacher. Win at all costs and f@ck everyone else. Not pretty but it works

          1. No records for gentlemen

          2. Yep…You have to sacrifice something to be a champion.

        2. This is clear insubordination. Just from a leadership standpoint, Horner needs to lay down the law about who’s boss. If I were him, just for starters, I would have:
          1. forbidden Vettel’s crew to attend the podium celebrations
          2. forbidden Webber’s crew to applaud Vettel on the podium
          3. sent Webber’s engineer to receive the constructor’s trophy.

          Then I would figure out the appropiriate internal measures to take to put the fear of God in both Vettel and Webber so that next time they get such an order from their boss, they comply with haste.

          This could end badly.

          1. That seems highly childish and unprofessional..

          2. Dude seriously! As the person above me points out, the podium ceremony was awkward enough and slightly unprofessional. You wanted more drama to ensue?

          3. 1. make Vettel no1 driver
            2. kick webber off the team
            3. have a second driver whos smaller, thus they can design a tighter car.

            I like webber but he doesn’t help vettel, he even has saved his tyres to get a Fastest lap on the last lap to deny vettel that record.

          4. In retrospect, #2 is a bit over-the-top, petty and unnecessary but I stand by the other two. Imagine you’re Vettel rolling into Parc Ferme after just defying team orders to steal a win from your teammate and none of your usual crew is there to celebrate with you. Mark’s crew is there but they don’t look very pleased with you. Then on the podium, you see Mark’s race engineer. That should send a very strong message to you saying, ‘Fine, you think you are above the team and you can do what you want? Have fun celebrating your sneaky, unscrupulous win by yourself.’

            It also sends a strong public message to Webber (and his fans) saying we fully support you in this instance. Webber’s an old pro but if he gets too discouraged or disallisioned Redbull can kiss a 4th consecutive constructor’s title goodbye, especially with Massa, Mercedes and Lotus all seeming to have raised their game this year.

            Perhaps most importantly, it also sends an immediate message to Dietrich Mateschitz who usually watches the races at home on TV saying, ‘Don’t worry boss, I’m taking immediate action to restore order in this team. The hens are no longer going to be running the hen house.’ Unchecked insubordination has a way of spreading like wildfire.

            Sometimes, symbolic, public gestures are just as important as the behind the scenes, private reprimands. Public shaming and temporary ostracization are very effective disciplinary tools.

      2. calm down mark is harder on his tyres and so is hamilton. Mark was fighting for that spot and lost it with honor, but then he became a sore loser saying to seb we had team orders. This is not politics this is racing ‘a competitive sport’. Hamilton was man enough to say rosberg should have been on the podium, but webber has not matured much in all his years of racing. Really sad!! and now politics once again has prevailed and vettel’s been forced to apologies for winning LOL. Grow a pair webber its a tight race and every point counts and your not the winning driver of this team and shame on redbull for not appreciating vettel’s initiative and management of the car. ‘team orders’ BLAH i dont watch parliament i watch F1 lets keep it that way.

    3. If we think about pure racing the way its meant to be, then Vettel did what a true racer would do indeed. And that is, beat everyone else! Reason for his apology is to make the team happy. But although I would have liked to see Webber win, in my eyes Vettel deserved his win and so there is nothing to apologize, as there was a clean battle and the better driver won.

      If the teams wants to drive the cars (instead of the drivers themselves), then they should install the a remote control system on every car and operate the cars from the garage with a joystick!

      1. Both of SV & MW and the team have all agreed on (this scenario multi-21) prior to the race, MW could have turned on the rev and abuse the hell out of the car (built by 500 hard working people) to fight to the bitter end (both of them tyres could have finished by lap 50-52) MW was sensible to let go… this goes to show that SV did not really care much about the hard work that the team put in that may end with nothing if shit happened. a disgraceful and pretty dirty win, this kid still haven’t learned much… (don’t think many of us forgot about Turkey) and he knew better than anyone. and WATCH OUT for Mr. Marko will be blaming MW in the next few days (a predictable prediction).

        1. Funny you mention everyone forgot Turkey 2010, when you apparently forgot Silverstone 2011.

      2. Mark turned down his engine and Vettel took advantage of it against team will which had told him to hold position. Red Bull bosses have now an opportunity to clarify their both drivers about following or not team orders.

      3. Finally someones comment makes sense, thank you JCost.

    4. I just hate team orders (since Spa 1998, D.Hill & R.Schumacher & E.Jordan – see on youtube).
      The fastest looks to have won the race within tense intra-team battle.

      A driver went for the win and kept it stuck in. In the end, Vettel is the race winner of the 2013 Malaysian Grand Prix.

      If you had a shot for a F1 race victory, what would you do?

      I would go for it!

      1. But if your employer told you not to do something, would you then go do it?

        1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
          24th March 2013, 16:18

          @oakrichardson if I’ve given my employee profits in the last 3 years, I would probably deal with it and be told off, got a memo or something like that. Itwouldn’t matter so much at the end (and if Vettel wins this championship by a single point, you’ll see he was right to take the risk(

          1. but would you go out of your way to do it? Vettel had the order and did not listen. I enjoyed watching them race, but not the outcome.

          2. What if Red-Bull decide that Vettel is no longer worth the hassle and bring someone like Rosberg or Hulk and he goes on to achieve even greater things with Red-Bull than Vettel did. Vettel needs Red-Bull far more than Red-Bull needs Vettel.

      2. God, when will people stop calling this teamorders? Damon started in P3, led the race from lap 1 and took the lead again after Michael Schumacher decided to park his Ferrari inside a McLaren. At no point during the race Ralf was even remotely close to winning. Only the SC brought him to the back of Damon’s car, who at this point was struggling with a slow puncture and still kept in on the wet track.

        Nobody deserved that victory more than Damon Hill.

        1. Hill’s begging for the team-order in SPA’98 was the most pathetic and miserable thing that I’ve seen in F1.

          1. Funny, Schumacher wiping out Hill in Aus ’94 gets my vote. Jordan made correct call in Spa ’98.

          2. I see your Australia ’94 and raise you Silverstone ’95, Monza ’95 and Montreal ’98.

          3. Indeed. Schumacher crying in Montreal 98 surely was the most pathetic thing ever.

      3. But the whole point is why did he have the chance to overtake? Because Webber was sticking to the plan and driving slow. Vettel took advantage

      4. It wasn’t a ‘team order’ thing. Webber had turned down his engine on orders of the engineers. Vettel was to do the same. Webber asked several times if Vettel was to do the same, clearly he didn’t trust him to follow orders. Webber could have won if he’d continued racing, instead, he followed orders and was jumped by his team mate who ignored them.

        1. Thanks. It’s nice to see that someone actually understands it.

    5. Gutless more like it. Lost a great amount of respect for him today.

      1. I have no real issue with the pass, it was great to watch. Red Bull need to bang their two drivers heads together if it was not what was planned. But from a racing point of view it was all fair in love and war.

        Tho the apology is pathetic if you are going to stick your neck out and go your own way at least be man enough to stick by it.

        Personally for me the way Merc did things was more shameful for the sport. i watched the race with a casual F1 fan and he was very put off. To quote him ‘ it was a great race until 10laps to go and then it was a joke once you knew no one was trying to or allowed to race’

        1. once you knew no one was trying

          Well, Red Bull did that too! It’s just Vettel didn’t listen.

    6. The worst thing was him claiming that he didn’t know… that is just not at all plausible.

      A true racer would have just said “I was faster than Mark, I asked for Mark to be told to speed up, Mercedes could have caught us, I couldn’t wait any longer so I took the decision to overtake, the gap at the finish proved I was right”.

      I’m pretty sure that’s what Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Villeneueve (Giles or Jacques), Montoya, etc would all said.

      1. So if Vettel was better on the microphone, he would be a more ‘true racer?’

        1. totocaster (@)
          24th March 2013, 18:03


      2. I’m pretty sure that’s what Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Villeneueve (Giles or Jacques), Montoya, etc would all said.

        Would that be the same Gilles Villeneuve who sat loyally behind his team mate at Monza in 1979, knowing all he had to do was pass to win the WDC yet refusing to do so simply because Ferrari had ordered “hold station”?

    7. Ahaha… they really fooled WEB. Let’s shut off your engine and now let’s sail until the end. Is this a race? I would throw my helmet to the floor and quit F1 for good! Suckers!

    8. As much as I feel for Mark, the picture on the other side of the coin would not have sat well with viewers either. Let’s suppose the counterfactual case: Vettel holds position and allows Webber to win, then you have two pairs of drivers basically driving in a pre-arranged race. The fall out would have been more damaging for F1.

      1. Webber had the race in the bag controlled it after the first stop and held the gap. The team tells him no risk so turn down the engine while Vettel turns his up and undercuts after stopping first making over 3.5 seconds in one lap.
        Normally the guy in front pits first and if Webber had at the end he wins easily. He won’t make that mistake again!

        1. I agree with most of what you just said. But the fact remains that Webber could have come back at Seb after he got overtaken. I meant couldn’t he have turned his engines back up to max power and tried to retake the position? (Speculating here, my technical acumen of F1 isn’t spectacular).

          1. No he was follow the orders he was told. When Vettel passed him into turn 4, Mark gave him plenty of space as he didnt want to ‘race’ Vettel, any other time that door would be shut with 100 padlocks holding it closed.

          2. @Giggsy11

            You said it yourself. “Mark gave him plenty of plenty of space as he didnt want to ‘race’ Vettel”.

            The above begs the obvious question, why didn’t he want to race? Okay, I get it he didn’t want to jeopardize both their race standings with a possible contact or off-track excursions. But these are the sort of things that separate champions from other ‘good drivers’. The Rate-Race page would have gone off the charts had Webber tried to come back at Seb. Alas, it wasn’t to be :(

  2. Do you believe on what he is saying? I don’t…

    1. vuelve kowalsky
      24th March 2013, 12:06

      Me neither. He is the best shot for red bull to win championships. So Marko must be very happy with the outcome.

    2. @f1-98 whatever he says, he’s a racer. He smelt win, he took it.

      All this is just PR stuff… he had plenty of time to think about it during the race, I suspect, being a truly great at this sport. He decided to do this, the damage? who cares? who ends up with the trophy and the 25 points??

      1. Who cares?

        Er… his employers that have just been made to look stupid?

        This isn’t about the ‘PR’ stuff, it’s about the friction it will cause within the team – Webber’s comments underline that. Personally, I think this may have been the best thing to happen to Webber for the season ahead.

        1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
          24th March 2013, 16:24

          it’s about the friction it will cause within the team – Webber’s comments underline that

          @john-h so after 3 years, you still believe there are no frictions between they both?
          Webber comments were given on the heat of the moment. No PR, he never cares about PR and I respect him for that.
          But let’s imagine it would have been 2 other drivers… let’s say Rosberg 1st and Hamilton 2nd, not respecting team orders and snatcing victory from Nico’s hands. People would not be saying “childish Vettel” but “what a legend is Lewis”; even more, people wouldn’t be worried saying “this will cause friction” but “Lewis rules”

          1. Ryan (@ryanisjones)
            25th March 2013, 0:24

            People would not be saying “childish Vettel” but “what a legend is Lewis”; even more, people wouldn’t be worried saying “this will cause friction” but “Lewis rules”

            Nobody would be saying that if it was Lewis. You are indirectly implying that Hamilton fans are blinkered. This is not the case. The problem with this situation, is had Webber not been told explicitly by his team to drive to a time delta Vettel would have never caught him. In other words the team are ‘blaming’ Vettel, but they orchestrated the events that made it possible.

            Christian Horner is as culpable as Vettel for reassuring Mark it was fine for him to slow down, allowing Vettel to pit first for the undercut, and then not informing Mark that Vettel was disobeying team orders so that Mark had a fair chance of racing him to maintain his lead. Swapping names would not make it any different.

    3. At least he said it I suppose, which is more than Alonso ever did when he won a controversial race.

      1. Sviatoslav Andrushko (@)
        24th March 2013, 14:35

        Then Fernando couldn’t tell anything because it would finish badly for his team. But he is supportive of his teammate, which is bad.

      2. alonso is always honest about it. Seb saying he is sorry is clearly a lie

        1. Singapore GP anyone…. ????

          1. @boylep6

            Or Hockenheim 2010.

    4. The problem isn’t that he ignored team orders. I can’t stand team orders. Its that Red Bull slowed Webber to let Vettel be in that position and THEN he ignored them.

      1. firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@)
        24th March 2013, 12:35


        1. Agreed. Rosberg raced well against Hamilton.

      2. Very true. It’s the moral equivalent of shooting the enemy during a ceasefire.

        1. spot on! Its betrayal

        2. @jackysteeg
          Are you sure that Vettel agreed on holding positions? Just because the team and Webber thought that he was going to hold position doesn’t mean that he had agreed on doing so.

          1. that is not the point, he was told by his employer, the team that keep him in a job to stay in that position and then he just ignored them. its wrong in the end.

          2. Yes, the team agrees to a strategy before the race, there is no doubt about that. Even Christian Horner said it and Mark said the team told him twice that Vettel would also hold back.

            Vettel basically lied to in order to gain an advantage: “yes, I will hold position on the last stint” but then he passes Webber.

          3. @mads
            Racing drivers are very different to normal employees.
            Their performance is so dependent on their attitude and determination. When they sign a three times world champion, then they cannot assume that he will do whatever they want him to. Its just not a part of the world champion package. They can be unhappy about it, but they shouldn’t expect him to do whatever they say unless he has agreed upon it.
            Especially not when his team mate, who he has trounced year after year, did not obey their orders previously.
            Team orders are annoying and ruins racing. I think its fantastic when drivers say “screw you” to that kind of bull and races to win. That is what they are paid to do, and that is what we pay to see.

          4. how do racing drivers differ from normal enpoylees? Anyone’s performance can be driver by attitude and determination. But, for the most part if they are told by their employer to do something, they will, even if it is not beneficial to them because in the end that is there job. People keep going on about silverstone 2011 but it is a different situation as they were not running 1 and 2 and vettel was not running with his engine turned down (as far as im aware). Fans get very passionate about there favored driver and when things go there way they are rightly happy, but sometimes they go there way wrongly and that skews the judgement of the fan, something that i think reflects in the comments (last line not aimed at your comment @mads just a statement).

          5. @oakrichardson
            I still don’t think that its a valid comparison.
            Usually an employee has to do what is best for the company.
            When Vettel in this situation does what is best for him self, then, because he executes it properly does not harm the team, but helps him self. If he kept doing what was best for the team then Red Bull could end up with no drivers championship. And how good is that?
            A racing driver by nature has a massive ego.
            Its just the way they work. It is impossible to have a lapdog and a great racing driver. They just don’t come in the same package.
            The reason that they have come so far is because they have a deep rooted desire to win. You cannot expect a three times world champion to just hold position.

          6. @mads I agree with you to a certain extent, in that it is in the nature of the racing driver to win. But I do believe the comparrison I have made is a vaild one. This is because in this situation what vettel has done has made the team, and therefore his employer look silly because he did not do as they told him to, and in the end he has only won his championships with this team, and going against them is a sign of disrespect. I am all for letting them race and I believe of the two vettel is a better driver, but in this instance he passed webber in an unfair manner, whilst going against his team.

          7. I think the real issue is that it wasn’t a fair fight.

            Red Bull orchestrated the situation by allowing Vettel to undercut his teammate and suddenly a ~5s gap evaporated and Vettel was all over the back of Webber as he exited the pits. Then Vettel continued to race hard for the overtake despite the fact that Webber had been reassured he could safely back off and turn down his engine.

            If Vettel had announced over the radio that he was not going to adhere to team orders and would attack Webber, at least Red Bull could have relayed that information to Webber who would have been able to react, resulting in a fair fight.

          8. @panache

            Red Bull orchestrated the situation

            Their reaction and their words on the radio make it clear Red Bull didn’t “orchestrate” anything. They told their drivers to hold position and expected them to obey.

          9. @keithcollantine Yeah my choice of adjective and sentence structure was poor here, although I suspect even if I commented that Red Bull “allowed this to happen” you would object, thinking that I am a conspiracy theorist who thinks Red Bull were out to sabotage Webber. I can’t blame you for assuming the worst considering the number of conspiracy theorys on this site:)

            For the record, I don’t think that, but I still don’t understand why Red Bull allowed Vettel to undercut Webber on the final pitsop which enabled Vettel to close a several second gap and almost pass Webber on his exit from the pitlane.

            Great work on the articles as always Keith.

        3. He’s now claiming that there was a prior agreement but he didn’t realize that it had been invoked. In other words that the agreement was not in force at the time presumably because whatever code had not been given.

          This is just bonkers and makes him look stupid.

        4. @jackysteeg

          So it’s exactly like Webber in Silverstone 2011 then.

      3. If Red Bull were that annoyed with Vettel ignoring any pre race agreement, they had 15 ish laps to order him to give the place back. My question is why didn’t they?

        1. Horner said it would’ve been pointless, Vettel wouldn’t do it.

          1. That response from Christian Horner was the response of a leader wimping out. IMHO, if Mark Webber had taken first place from Vettel in similar circumstances, he would have been ordered to give the place back, and if he did not, he would probably have been fired. I can think of at least two teams (including one whose cars are red and built at a place named Maranello) where ignoring team orders would probably get any driver heavily penalized, possibly even fired.
            What this incident shows is that Christian Horner is either not capable of enforcing team orders at Red Bull, or he is not allowed to enforce them. Either way, Sebastian Vettel has proved that he can be insubordinate to the team in a racing situation and get away with it. Terrible precedent for Red Bull.

      4. @infi24r

        I find it hard to believe that Webber followed those orders to the letter and that he turned his revs down and/or didn’t turn his revs back up when it mattered, or that he really believed the race was over. But if its true, then almost makes you think that the whole move was planned by someone within the team. In which case it should be down to Webber to recognise that. But I don’t like speculating.

        1. Ryan (@ryanisjones)
          25th March 2013, 0:44

          I think you are spot on. I believe the whole “blame Vettel” media storm is deflecting from the fact the team are culpable. For instance…

          1. Why was Vettel allowed to undercut?
          2. Why was Webber not told about the times of Vettel’s out-lap? He was 1 second quicker than Webber in each sector. Imagine if it was Alonso not Vettel behind him. From the first sector time Webber would have been informed “Alonso is catching you 1 second per sector you need to turn up your engine and race”. Clearly this never happened with Vettel. In fact…
          3. Why was he STILL being told that Vettel was not racing him?
          4. Annnnnd why was Horner not more stern? “This is silly?” – Really, is that the best you can do.

          I think this is why Webber is clearly going to consider retiring. Racing your team mate is one thing, but racing against your team. That is a battle he cant win. You need to be able to trust your pit wall to give you accurate information about your competitors – team mates included. Not allow them to catch you up.

          1. I agree with that completely.

      5. exactly +1

        multi 21 – Vet driver 1 Web Driver 2 – 1 Webber 2 Vettel?

    5. A Alonso-to-be?

  3. Sebastian, I do not believe you when you say you “weren’t aware” that you were supposed to hold position.

    If you ignored team orders because you wanted to win this Grand Prix, just say so. I would respect you for that.

    1. If you ignored team orders because you wanted to win this Grand Prix, just say so. I would respect you for that.

      +1 on that

      1. And another +1 from me.

      2. Yep. We need more honesty and less political correctness and PR BS from people.

        A +1 from me as well

    2. Exactly. He just lost all the admiration he had won from me. Oh boy, F1 is full of cry-babies, liars and hypocrites. I miss good old Piquet and Senna, who would do what they wanted to do and tell you honestly that they did it ’cause they could.

      Perhaps we need MORE pay drivers. They would tell the teams what to do, and not the other way around. This is just SAD.

      1. I thought hard about this incident & I realized that if someone other than Vettel did what he did at the track today I would applaud them. I just am not a Vettel fan but you are right. Racing is racing. To say that he is wrong is to say that drivers should not be competitive which then invalidates the whole point of racing.

        When there is competition of any sort, there will be a winner & a loser. When there is an opportunity, you take it or leave it.

        1. I think you have missed the point totally. I am sure you know that in recent times most teams allow their drivers to race each other until the latter part of the race when if they are one driver behind the other the team tell them to hold position, this is to avoid any unnecessary collision. That is the case in this race, both drivers were told to hold position and Webber’s engine was even turned down. Vettel should be ashamed, F1 is for gentlemen not husslers.

          1. F1 has never really been for ‘gentlemen’.

          2. @ Mikkey – Plus the tyres were a big concern, which is what RBR did not want… They could have risked damaging the tyres if they raced each other and who knows Mecedes might have split the Red Bulls… That was the strategy…

          3. Spot on Mikkey

          4. What is the point of F1 or even racing if you want to be safe, avoid collision and be in a procession ? This assumption of drivers will crash when racing wheel to wheel is foolish.

            “By being a racing driver you are under risk all the time. By being a racing driver means you are racing with other people. And if you no longer go for a gap that exists, you are no longer a racing driver because we are competing, we are competing to win. And the main motivation to all of us is to compete for victory, it’s not to come 3rd, 4th, 5th or 6th. I race to win as long as I feel it’s possible. Sometimes you get it wrong? Sure, it’s impossible to get it right all the time. But I race designed to win, as long as I feel I’m doing it right.” :- Ayrton Senna

            Like it or not, Vettel vs Webber fight was one of the most exciting thing in that GP. A lot of close quarters racing and they can still fight without crashing. These are professional drivers. They get paid tons of money to drive & they should be able to race wheel to wheel.

            This is racing. this is competition. What Mark should have done is turn his engine back up and at least put up a fight. F1 is not for gentlemen & nice guys. All the F1 greats are in some way cold, ruthless and driven to win.

    3. A bit strange, and I tend not to believe him much there either. On the other hand, maybe he just means that he had not realized the team would be upset, because it was clear he had no trouble hearing the radio. Maybe to him its the same as setting fastest race laps towards the end even when the team tell him not too?
      Thereby clearly showing where the problem lies this time.

    4. Indeed, I think ignoring team orders is something we should applaud drivers for, if all would do it, we could have real racing on the edge.

      1. I f one driver is complying with team orders and the other do not, this last one is taking an (unfair) advantage from the other. This never could be real racing.

        Vettel decided to take an unfair advantage from Webber, and I’m pretty sure he did it because he knows it will have no consequences for him. I could not imagine what would have been RBR reaction in the opposite case.

        1. From his apology, and “not have known what it would cause” it certainly gives the impression that Vettel was taken aback by how much he team got down on him for the ignoring. Understandably, because in the past they never made much of a point of him ignoring orders to slow down and setting fast laps.

          I fully agree with you that it gave an unfair advantage to Vettel, and I do not like him for that. Its a shame Webbers engineer couldn’t tell Mark to turn up the wick and fight back in time and we would have had a real battle.

          1. @bascb
            Was Webber really taken by surprise? It took Vettel several laps to get around him. It does not take that long to move a switch on the steering wheel to turn the engine mode up.

          2. Understandably, because in the past they never made much of a point of him ignoring orders to slow down and setting fast laps.

            Good point, @bascb

          3. @mads


            Just Webber making excuses. He was going slower than Vettel all race and then suddenly it’s all about multi-21.

          4. @mads, I am pretty sure there had been frantic conversation from him asking the team to confirm Vettel would not pass, it certainly looked like he turned up the wick only when it was too late to defend the position.

        2. If one driver obeys team orders and the other doesn’t then it soon leads to chaos.

          The team won’t be able to rely on either driver to obey orders and it will descend into trouble on and off the track. With both drivers trying to get one over the other within the team.

          Not a good situation for the team overall and the infighting will damage both of them compared with a more unified team chasing them (eg Lotus, Ferrari or Mercedes).

      2. the funny thing was he also asked his team to order his teammate to let him pass earlier in the race. is that racing too? ;)

      3. @bascb – If drivers wish to disobey team orders let them do so, let them then not take help of the team during pit stops, driver should get out of the car, choose the tyres and fit it himself… Also drivers can model the aerodynamics and all the engineering stuff.. Plus they can install a big screen in their car to see what others drivers are doing, their track position, temperature, all data from sensors…

        This is a team sport not an individual one, that is fundamental…

        1. @jjjj – so, I can conclude from this then you actually like team orders? Please – the driver’s egos are an essential part of the sport; if they didn’t then there’d just be a constructors and no drivers championship.

        2. @jjjj – you call it help from the team? Isn’t that the same team that wants to win as well, and wants to put their cars on the best rubber to finish first? Its a team sport, where the team provides the car, the means to race and the team to operate it and the driver should go out and get the car to the finish in the best possible position.

          If you actually think Team orders are fine, we are not going to debate that. But it does mean that we will significantly lower the exitement of races, because teams are unlikely to want their guys to race in the last 1/3rd of the race.

    5. vuelve kowalsky
      24th March 2013, 12:12

      agree. Any german thinking about putting a nickname to vettel? i remember they put one to schumacher in the past. How was it in german scumel schumi or something like that.

      1. It was Schummel-Schumi (Cheating-Schumi).

        What about Fiddle-Vettel or Swindle-Seb? Or you mean German?

    6. If you ignored team orders because you wanted to win this Grand Prix, just say so. I would respect you for that.

      I agree.

      1. Of course drivers can’t ignore team orders. After all drivers are employees and get paid to drive and comply with their contracts otherwise they could be sacked! The team calls the tune, NOT the drivers!

        1. This is a good point that I agree with. Hundreds of personnel at the track and factory slave hours and hours over the cars and then pay the drivers millions to drive them. The drivers are hugely privileged guys, and employees of the team, and should respect any team orders (however much I personally dislike them)

          1. red bull arent going to sack seb and he knows that. he will take the 14 point swing over his team and sleep very well tonight im sure.

        2. Of course drivers can’t ignore team orders. After all drivers are employees and get paid to drive and comply with their contracts otherwise they could be sacked!

          Webber got sacked after Silverstone?

    7. If the team did tell him to hold position and were serious about it, they would of made him give the position back. That’s an example of real team orders and I believe that’s why Webber made the protected call. They are only upset because they were made to look like idiots again by the golden boy.

      1. I’ve thought about this situation for a few hours now and it never occurred to me that RBR should have ordered VET to give the position back. You make an excellent point FunkyF1. RBR had the power to put things right but (apparently) chose not to.

        1. @glennb
          What on earth could Red Bull do to make Vettel give the position back? Weave at him? Throw stones at him? They could have told him to give the position back, but what difference would that have made?

          1. Vettel claims he didn’t know about the orders. And feels bad about it… he is claiming an honourable position.

            So there are three possibilities to consider:

            – what would he have done if had explicitly known he was not to overtake ? would he have stayed behind ? He seems to be claiming that he would have – do you believe that ? or do you believe that this is exactly what happened and he overtook anyway ?

            – or what if he had overtaken and then before the end of the race the team had come on the radio and given him the information that this was in breach of a “no overtake” agreement ? do you believe he would have voluntarily given up the place or taken it anyway ?

            – or what if he had overtaken and before the end of the race the team had ordered him to give the place back ? do you believe he would have ?

            a) he would have stayed behind if he’d known…
            b) he would have given the place back if the team had told him before the end of the race
            Then his apology means nothing but PR spin and he has no moral case to stand on.

            Which outcome do you believe ?

          2. @mads

            I agree, while holding station is one thing that’s mostly accepted. Asking a lead driver to let his team mate past, even in this situation is just asking for a *********.

        2. @glennb – Would Vettel listen and concede the position if he did not obey the earlier order?

          1. We’ll never know. The order was never given.

      2. At least RBR ignored Vettels call for team orders when he told them to get Webber our of the way. Which also shows that Vettel only believes in team orders when they go in his favour!

        It will be very interesting if either Webbers or Vettels engine fails in the next few races, because F1 is a marathon as much as it is a sprint and engines have to last several races – which is why they turn them down.

        Those who want real racing all the way to the end have to also call for the removal of the cost constraint measures and go back to engines that last 1 race + 1 lap.

      3. That reminds me of 1998 Australian GP , when Mclaren called Hakkinen for a stop when he didn’t needed one, later the team ordered Coulthard to give Mika the position back.

        1. (@leonardo-antunes) But wasn’t that a gentleman’s agreement between Hakkinen and Coulthard that whoever reached the first corner first would win the race?

          As far as I can tell this is more akin to Senna passing Prost in Monza under a similar agreement – one driver is racing when the other doesn’t expect it.

          1. But wasn’t that a gentleman’s agreement between Hakkinen and Coulthard that whoever reached the first corner first would win the race?

            by now its well documented, that this was only a spin McLaren gave to it @sgt-pepper.
            Brundle – who was Coulthards Manager for several years, only mentioned this yesterday again when talking about the disruption these things bring for inner team dynamics.

    8. As usual, you’ve nailed it…

      1. @electrolite I feel it’s important of me to state that I’d never pass you if we had arranged something before a race. ;)

        1. I’ll hold you to that when I want my first win…;)

        2. but then its not a “race” is it. its a “game”.

    9. @scuderiavincero @flig @bascb @magnificent-geoffrey

      Problem is that this is not a team order. This is an agreement, made before the race and should have been respected by Webber and Vettel ( in whatever position they were ). So Vettel and Webber had agreed in this agreement.

      If you don’t respect a team order, it’s ok and is NOT something to “not be proud”.
      if you dont respect an agreement,it’s not ok you are not honest and and IS something to “not be proud”.

      The fact that Vettel : “admit that he is not proud” = “he did not respect the agreement”

      But i respect Vettel for saying this in public, it’s not easy…anyway in one of the 17 remain races he have to give a payback for Webber…

      1. @nomore I’ve seem Webber being told to hold position in many occasions before and despite not being pleased about it he usually follows the orders, Seb should have respect his team as a whole and his teammate in particular.

        1. @jcost

          Name one example because I would very much like to hear it.
          We know Silverstone 2011 isn’t such a case.

          And even in Brazil 2012 it took Webber half a race to realize his chances on winning the title were long gone.

          1. f1fannl, you are like a broken record ( a plastic thing like a CD that stored music). Webber made a show of not obeying team orders at Silverstone for a very good reason and also just to show he could have, but he didn’t, just as Rosberg showed today that he could have, but he didn’t.
            I am no fan of team orders but the rules and tyres as they are now make them unavoidable if a team is to succeed.

          2. @hohum

            Webber made a show of not obeying team orders at Silverstone for a very good reason and also just to show he could have, but he didn’t, just as Rosberg showed today that he could have, but he didn’t.

            Donkey doodoo. Webber listens to team orders when it suits him. Now that the shoe was on the other foot he cries. End of story.

            At Silverstone he tried his best to get passed but couldn’t. He even admitted that. Rosberg tried and succeeded but got overtaken immediately after. Then asked the team to tell Hamilton to get out of his way and ultimately held position. The two instances are nothing alike.

      2. @nomore, I really fail to see the difference you try to make between a “team order” and an “agreement” to enact the same made before the race. When Radio was not as good, and when TO were officially not allowed, it was all too common to agree on team strategy beforehand, and not all to unusual to include things like holding station after the last stop, in case both cars would be leading etc.
        There is no difference between the two.

        Personally I don’t like team orders, and I do not like teams for using them, especially this early in the season and to decide race wins. Therefore its good when drivers show they will not have any of it and go out to race. without it we would have a wholly boring formation flying last 22 or so laps from the lead 4 cars yesterday.

    10. Agreed – he should’ve just come out and said it. Unless his radio messages prove otherwise I don’t accept these comments.

      1. Bet those radio messages will never see the light of day.

        1. @hatebreeder – probably, sadly. I wish FOM would incorporate the team radios more into the races and have better race reviews – I feel it’s a wasted resource.

    11. Dude, just think for a minute. He canNOT admit it – his team would eat him alive.
      We all know he wanted the win, he got it, it’s fine.

    12. +1 I don’t believe him either… he just looks like a bit of an **** to claim it

  4. I don’t believe him either – I doubt he cares very much; he won the race and that’s given him the championship lead, so this PR talk is disguising a deep sense of satisfaction.

    1. firstLapNutcaseGrosjean (@)
      24th March 2013, 11:52

      Oh..that PR is for Webber. Not for us.

      1. It is for us, that PR speak is to try and polish the tarnish on his image. Before today there was always doubt about whether Vettel intentionally cheated his team mate, today there is no doubt and there may be some sponsors who do not feel that selfish and untrustworthy are characteristics they want to be associated with.

    2. Yep, its disappointing. As someone tweeted, he would have gained a lot more respect if he just told the world he is in it to win, so why would he not take the chance.

      Actually I am glad for him ignoring a team order, just as it was good to see Webber ignoring orders to slow down in Silverstone 2011. But the lame way of handling it is not endearing.

      Shame Webber did not react in time, turn up the wick too and we could have a sensational battle to the end. Had Rosberg done the same too, this could have been epic, even if then Hamilton had won it for steadily driving to the finish when Vettel, Webber and Rosberg crash out :-)

      1. @bascb – I suspect he’s just trying to salvage some working relationship with Webber, but I agree he should just have come out and said it – we all know he knew fine well what he was doing (unless radio evidence proves otherwise).

        1. Hamilton did a far better job in that respect, admitting it felt a bit unfair to Rosberg.

          1. @bascb – maybe it’s just Vettel’s English is not so good! :P (reference to Schumacher’s Top Gear interview by the way)

          2. @vettel1 Yeah right, language problem. He proved to be very profficient in English over the radio: “He’s too slow. Get him out of the way” No mistakes there…

          3. @klaas *sigh* – it was quite clearly a sarcastic comment, hence the “:P”

        2. I suspect he’s just trying to salvage some working relationship with Webber


          Hes doing a terrible job of it. I think Mark would probably appreciate his teammate to give him an straight forward reply instead of all this cover up PR bs that no one buys

      2. @bascb

        Actually I am glad for him ignoring a team order

        Frankly, I don’t understand those of you who are so giddy about Vettel’s having directly disobeyed a valid, easily-understood order from his team. Where I come from, we would call that “gross insubordination,” and it’s certainly not something for one to be proud of.

        1. Well, yes, but we are not in the army here, are we?

          If everyone just follows orders, its unlikely that we will ever get to see an outstanding driver do something special on track. The ultimate / extreme of going along with team orders and everyone being subject to strict orders as how to execute the optimal strategy as decided by the computer and strategists, would be going back to refueling, tyres lasting for ever and deciding races only by who built the best car and strategy/tactics.
          If we want the drivers to have a decisive role in this, we want them to be calling the shots often enough to see a Button choose the right tyres in the wet-ish (or the wrong ones), to see a Vettel ignore an order to park it and bring the car home in 3rd on half the cylinders and with shot brakes, and also to see a driver decide he can get past the guy in front without crashing, and without failing to make it to the finish because his tyres are shot.

          I do understand that the way he did it, and what he said and in the sport as it is, this was ultimately not a move that is going to bring him many friends, and it certainly won’t make life easy inside the team, but it did give him a win and a few extra points that might well come in handy at the end of the year, especially with Alonso not scoring. it also made sure Seb and Mark are not equal on points after this race

          I am not even sure the team will hold it against him on the long term. After all, wasn’t it Ron Dennis who mentioned how “Competitive animals know no limits’. – talking about Alonso after seperating ways with him. He ment is as a show of respect for the driver

    3. What Seb really said: I know the team convinced Mark not to push and he fell for it. It wasn’t really nice for us to trick him like that but in the end I won and that what’s the only thing that counts. I know Mark feels betrayed but nobody in the team really cares about his feelings, the sooner he understands this the better for him (and us). Good thing Mercedes used some team tactics too so now Papa Marko can divert all the dirt that will be thrown at us by the media in Brackley’s yard. Ha ha…

      1. Actually I think Vettel was surprised by the lack of understanding he got from his team.

        1. @bascb, the team understood only too well, Vettel didn’t, but now the Blondie that stands behind him at interviews to make sure he doesn’t spoil his “golden-boy” image has explained to him that a lot of people don’t like greedy selfish and untrustworthy people he is following the script to pretend it was all just a misunderstanding.

          1. yes, that was more disappointing than the incident on track really @hohum. After all, we all want to see them racing, not coasting home, don’t we?

    4. An objective view from a Vettel fan! I agree though, its all PR…

    5. I am not so sure RB is too satisfied with this, because it shows they have no control on their driver, and therefore, it may happen that he plays against team interest.
      I am not a fan of VET, and considering that WEB always played team player for VET championshipS, I feel the the guy has been a spoiled child for too long…

      1. Oh come on, team’s interest means Seb’s interest. Now they’ll just have to offer Webber a raise so that Mark can react properly (just like after his KERS failure): “These things happen”.

  5. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
    24th March 2013, 11:51

    I simply don’t believe the guy. I am not saying he is a villain – but that was very very inconsiderate of him, a second place wouldn’t have harmed him – it would have harmed his damn ego, that’s why he made that move – ignoring his team.

    1. That’s what its all about EGO. Vettel as the mind of a child, not a man.

      1. @ivz – no, the mind of a racer. If Alonso say was in the same position you could be damned sure he would’ve done the same.

        1. He went against team orders, the team that has basically given him everything. As much as he wants to race and win, he has to respect the team. He would not be a 3 time world champion if it wasn’t for Red Bull. If Red Bull said “its all go, race each other, but be careful”, then its a different story.

          1. @ivz

            Mark Webber disobeys team orders- hero.
            Sebastian Vettel disobeys team orders- villain.

            Yeah, I get exactly what you’re saying.

          2. @david-a +1! If the postings were reversed, I very much doubt we’d be seeing the same arguments…

          3. Yes, it does seem to be that way @vettel1, @david-a, and that is why, even when I do not feel completely comfortable with being on “vettels side here”, I do support him in the matter.

            I do not like seeing teams give team orders, so having drivers ignore them shows they have a racing spirit (I like this view on it).

            Only the way he handled the aftermath was not up to par, sadly.

          4. @david-a Unlike Sebastian, Mark told it straight that he wasn’t going to obey team orders – period.
            Seb acted like a b****. He knew very well he was scre*ing Mark, why did he choose to be a hypocrite then, and apologise for something he obviously didn’t regret?

          5. @klaas – I don’t agree with or believe the apology Vettel issued. He hasn’t got much to feel sorry for. It was for PR purposes, and doesn’t in any way make him an expletive.

            But you have people who are against Vettel’s actions today (despite treating a similar scenario differently) and would be regardless of what he said afterwards. That is what is annoying.

          6. @david-a One must admit that those people wouldn’t have anything to base their anti-Vettel claims if only Seb didn’t give them a hand by coming up with that post-race BS. In his case the best PR was to shut up or tell the truth. As I mentioned above this is exactly what converts Vettel from Racer of the Day into B**** of the Day.

          7. @klaas – Yet people were making similar comments in the Rate The Race thread earlier, which went up even before the podium interviews were done and apology was issued. Hence quite a few people commented based purely on the ignored team order, which showed a clear double standard, given the reaction to the same situation 2 years ago.

            And continuing to swear isn’t helping you come across any better.

          8. @david-a You can adress directly to those people’s wrongs if you care so much. I’m answering only for my opinions in which there aren’t any double standards.

          9. @klaas – I have debated it with some of those people. But I see nothing wrong with what I said here. I do not believe the backlash is down to Vettel’s “apology”, and there was a double standard because Vettel is criticized for something that another driver was praised for.

          10. @david-a My and other people’s (not all) backlash towards Vettel is down to exactly that pathetic apology. And I explained the difference between Vettel and the ‘praised driver’ a few comments ago, please don’t pretend you have ignored it.

          11. @klaas – I already said that I did not believe the apology was genuine, so I didn’t ignore that.

            But if Vettel was “screwing” Webber as you claimed, then is that not a criticism of his on-track actions, rather than the apology? Wasn’t Webber doing the same thing, and therefore open to the same criticism for his on-track actions?

          12. No, because there’s a difference if I punched you in the nose on purpouse and said “take that @david-a I want to hurt you” and if punched you on purpouse and then apologised when everyone was watching so that I don’t look so bad. Take it as a joke but I think the comparison is proper in this case.
            So it was with Vettel, he knew well that by overtaking Mark he is going to take the win. Why come and say that it was Webber’s win then and apologize?

          13. OmarR-Pepper (@)
            24th March 2013, 16:32

            @david-a +1. The same if Alonso or Ham do this…. they are heros all the time

            “Alonso chose to stay one more lap with the nosecone broken” people will say “Yeah because he is a brave man!!”

        2. @vettel1 on the other hand, Lewis was feeling very sorry about his ‘buddy’ Nico, too bad he didn’t tell Ross Brawn to let Nico pass and stomach the points loss.

          1. @jcost

            but Hamilton could have just pullled over and let Rosberg through. He may feel bad for his buddy, but he’s wanting those 3 extra points.

        3. I don’t think Alonso would feel the need to go against team orders. Because he’d understand why they were doing it.

          1. @mike

            I agree, Alonso would never go against the team when they’re trying to get him more points.

          2. @f1fannl

            Haha, I was thinking that!

        4. @vettel1, it’s not racing unless the other guy is racing too. What it was was a sneak attack like Pearl Harbor.

          1. @hohum – ah, but it’s not exactly as if Mark was completely caught off-guard: Vettel had to chase down a 5 second gap first, the actually pass him, so Webber could’ve easily just turned on full attack mode.

          2. @vettel1, had Webber known that Vettel was going to disregard team orders and had he not been given team orders then no doubt he would have stayed in full race mode so that Vettel could not gain that 5 secs that Webber had on him, Vettel only caught up because Webber had been assured that NO-ONE was a danger to him if he reduced his pace to “high 1:39s”

          3. @hohum

            Than Webber must be incredibly dense.

            What was he expecting when Vettel showed up in his mirrors for the THIRD time in the race? That they were gonna hold hands as they crossed the finish line?! Come on…

      2. it seems that there are many people agreeing with me that vettel has a behavior of entitlement and a mind of a child who thinks the world is his own :)

        1. The mob is whipping itself into a frenzy today, for sure.

      3. I agree Vettle is for himself, I hope mark has the chance to spoil this spoilt brats championship hopes.

        1. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
          24th March 2013, 13:28

          @spartacus : I hope Alonso does it. Actually, I know Alonso will do it.

          1. @shreyasf1fan Bold claims! Same guy who said Alonso will chow the Red Bull off the line and be leading by the first corner, right? Crystal ball a bit rusty there.

          2. @serv +1! Bet Alonso running into the back of Vettel wasn’t part of that prediction ;)

          3. Well, his front wing for a short moment was the fastest thing on the track.

      4. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
        24th March 2013, 13:25

        @ivz : Exactly, mate.

        1. @serv

          2013 F1 WDC is not decided after malaysian GP.. we have another 17 races to go.. I am seconding @ShreyasF1fan ‘s Bold Claims … and I am sure we are not the only two…

          It was unfortunate that Alonso had to retire… but we know he will be back…

          1. Hey, @shreyasf1fan and @puneethvb I am not suggesting Alonso is not going to win the championship. He probably has the same chances as Vettel and Kimi by the looks of it. But to say “I know he will win it” this early…that’s what I meant by a bold claim.

            By the way, do you think the front wing half dragging on the ground like that would’ve lasted until it was time to change tyres? (accroding to the race report on here, Webber didn’t knock it off)

        2. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
          2nd April 2013, 13:36

          @serv : Yes, I think it would have lasted with some caution from Alonso. Well, yes, I checked later as well and Webber didn’t nock it off – he started the process, though. The wet track made it harder for Alonso and bam, out of the race.

    2. The harm would have been that Webber would have had a victory to his name. Consider the points between Vettel and webber – it is 14 points other way around! So this is why Vettel did what he did. Taking Webber out of the Championship race bit by bit. If Red Bull is the fastest car this year then Webber is Vettel’s nr 1 competition… was…

      1. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
        25th March 2013, 4:27

        @f1lauri : NO, Vettel has never been or never will be Vettel’s no.1 competition. HIs no.1 competitors are Alonso and Raikkonen. Webber has too many flaws to properly challenge Vettel for a title.

        1. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
          2nd April 2013, 13:38

          @f1lauri : Webber*

    3. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
      24th March 2013, 16:05

      @serv : Yes, and it was very possible Alonso would have done exactly that. It was just pure bad luck – the team and Alonso together had decided that they would wait for the track to dry so that that the wing can be changed in the same stop where the slicks will be put on. It would have worked out quite well – if, Webber hadn’t made contact with Alonso ( If that was intentional or not we have no way of knowing . So yeah, crystal ball is still shiny, and has predicted correctly that Alonso will win the Championship – why? Cos Ferrari has the pace to beat Red Bull – have you seen RBR’s straight-line speed? One of the lowest on the grid!

      1. RBR has always opted for a high downforce car and they’ve always had one of the lowest straight line speeds. Not sure what you’re aiming at with that comment?
        I also believe it was Alonso touching Vettel in Turn 2 causing the crooked wing, not webber passing Alonso a few seconds later.

        Liked how it was described by a BBC commentator:
        ‘This is what happens when a prancing horse kisses a bull’

        1. Shreyas Mohanty (@)
          25th March 2013, 17:33

          @stijnzer : I am not talking about the how the wing got crooked, I am talking about how the crooked wing came off the car -Webber.

    4. @shreyasf1fan

      I am not saying he is a villain

      Well you should, because he IS a villain!

      1. @joepa

        Yeah, I saw him using the dark side of the force to break Alonso’s wing beam.

        True story.

        1. Alonso? Alonso’s running into the back of Vettel doesn’t have anything to do w/ Vettel’s treachery and subterfuge against his own teammate, Webber. Nice attempt at misdirection!

    5. a second place wouldn’t have harmed him

      A second place would have meant a whole lot if he had lost the title with 6 points or less.

  6. the weaving he did when he crossed the finish line tells the otherwise..

    1. +++1

      And now that Vettel has apologized, would he gladfully “return” a win to Webber next time they are running 1-2?
      I can imagine Helmut Marko barking Vettel’s ears telling him not to even bother entertaining that though.

    2. James (@chairmanmeowmeow)
      24th March 2013, 21:28


      And how WEB crossed the line as far as possible from the pit wall was quite telling.

  7. You have thought twice before the move.

    1. oops, I messed up grammar. You should have thought twice…might be?

  8. Why is he apologising? He won the race. If at the end of the season Vettel wins the WDC, he’ll look back at this moment and think ‘I did the right thing’. Winning is all that matters in F1, friendship is for losers.

    As for cry baby Webber, GROW UP!! I thought you were made of Aussie grit, not pink fluffy marshmallows.

    1. *Vettel wins the WDC by 5 points

    2. If the team instructed both drivers to bring the cars home and then one ignores that and decides he’s going balls out to pass, then that’s not fair.

      At the very least he should have told Webber up front that he wasn’t agreeing. Now he just sucker punched Webber.

      1. +infinity

        The fact that it wasn’t a fair fight is the crux of this issue for me. Red Bull allowed Vettel to undercut Webber to close the gap between them and Webber was also running in a low engine mode under the assurance that Vettel would not pass him.

        Like you say Vettel sucker punched Webber. Horner didn’t have the balls to explicitly give an order to Vettel not to overtake, nor did he demand that Vettel give back the position after he made the overtake. Ross Brawn by comparison was very authoratative. He explicitly stated to Rosberg in no uncertain terms that he was not allowed to pass Hamilton.

    3. @hellotraverse +1! I think Alonso or Hamilton would’ve done exactly the same thing in the same position, which says a lot about why they’re the best a they take every opportunity they can get and think about the consequences afterwards.

    4. @hellotraverse

      As for cry baby Webber, GROW UP!! I thought you were made of Aussie grit, not pink fluffy marshmallows.


    5. Why did Webber complain and Vettel apologize? Precisely because they both want to win this season. And they both want the team as much as possible on their side. Vettel’s extra points without a profuse apology would probably not be so much of a bonus with the ill feeling generated and a potentially very hostile and provoked Webber.

      Webber on the other hand knows that Vettel has gotten away with snatching extra points and the initiative already this season. Much like Alonso sneaking past Massa on the way to the pits a couple of years back. It’s sneaky but doubly effective – more points and putting one over the other driver. It will be interesting to see what Webber comes up with in response.

    6. How bout when mark Webber ignored team order at Silverstone 2011, many praised his action and today Vettel did the same people slash him. Hypocrite

      1. Sorry mate, you are backing the wrong tree…. Team order at Silverston 2011? Wake up!!!

      2. The big difference being that today Vettel asked for RBR to use team orders to get Webber out of his way earlier in the race but then ignored team orders to keep to 2nd place and let Webber win. I see hypocrisy here and it’s only on Vettel’s side of this story.

        1. That doesn’t stop Webber from also being a hypocrite.
          He disobeys team orders and he is fine with it, but when Vettel returns of the “favour” then he starts crying and takes the victim role once again.
          You can call both hypocrites or neither of them hypocrites.
          They are equally guilty.

          1. The Next Pope
            25th March 2013, 19:16

            @mads I think Webber is at least man enough to admit he ‘wanted’ to try and get a place. (Silverstone 2011)
            Seb came out a backstabber here. Oh not to mention, “Mark is too slow. Get him out of the way!”.

    7. How about when Webber ignored team order at Silverstone 2011, many praised his action, today Vettel did it and people slash him. Hypocrite

      1. The Next Pope
        25th March 2013, 19:31

        Because Webber was looking out for himself, and was man enough to admit it? While Vettel cried like a baby on the radio, weaved his car at the checkered flag, so proud of his win until he realised it was a big mistake, while still getting protected by the team? Expect it that many will side with Webber.

    8. Red Bull have given him a car to win these last three seasons. Perhaps when you think about that, you may understand that winning also requires a decent car to do it in and therefore, making them look stupid isn’t in the long term the best idea.

      Webber is unhappy because he had the pace to beat Seb, but turned down the engine and then was stabbed in the back. To be honest, if you don’t get annoyed by that then you are not a ‘racer’ either.

    9. While I agree with much of what you’ve said, I don’t think it’s friendship Vettel’s after or what he’s hurt. If the two drivers had a gentleman’s agreement not to race after the last stop and Webber relied on that to his detriment then I can’t help but feel Vettel was being unsportsman like. Then again maybe I’m being naive in believing that there are still gentleman racers or that agreements between men are worth anything.

      1. @colossal-squid

        I don’t think it’s friendship Vettel’s after

        Neither do I. What Vettel is after is Schumi’s Record of 7 WDC’s, and he’s not going to win 8 WDC by letting Webber waste vital points (let’s face it, Webber is never going to win anything).

        Then again maybe I’m being naive in believing that there are still gentleman racers or that agreements between men are worth anything.

        Unless both parties sign on the dotted line, you should always assume that the other person will screw you over. Only a naive person would trust a “gentleman’s agreement” in a sport as cut-throat as F1.

        1. @hellotraverse

          Only a naive person would trust a “gentleman’s agreement” in a sport as cut-throat as F1.

          Well that’s poor reasoning for Vettel’s possible breach of an agreement. Saying “it’s ok for me to be cutthroat, because this sport is cutthroat” is tautological.
          Others have talked all day about the sporting merits of Hamilton saying he wished Rosberg was on the podium, yet in something such as keeping a sporting agreement (markedly different from team orders in my view) which I suspect Vettel broke I think his actions were unsporting and possibly deceitful.

          1. It was more than a sporting agreement, and more than team orders, it was a tactical decision to ensure maximum success for both team and drivers by looking after the cars and tyres and minimising the risk of premature gearbox or engine failure in future let alone the risk of collision damage or tyres going “off the cliff” and failing to finish 1,2.
            My fervent hope is that Vettels gearbox will have early failure as a result and his 5 grid-spot penalty will end like Alonso’s race did today.

          2. Yes you could rightly take the view that Vettel was not merely having a fair race for a Grand Prix win, he was jeopardising the entire team’s hard work and efforts, something that he had no right to do.

  9. Well, then don’t fight so ridiculously hard for the victory, simple as that.

  10. It’s the same with Hamilton. They’re just making smokescreen.

    1. How is it the same?

      Red Bull:
      – Webber was leading, but he was slower,
      – Vettel was told to back off and he didn’t obey,
      – people complain.

      – Hamilton was leading, but he was slower,
      – Rosberg was told to back off and he did listen,
      – people complain.

      Did you expect Vettel to back off? If so, you should expect Rosberg to do the same.
      Did you expect Nico to overtake Lewis? Well then you shouldn’t complain about Sebastian.

      Have some consistency people!

      1. @maroonjack +1! It’s ironic really that these are the same people that talk of double standards at Red Bull…

      2. Because Webber wasn’t slower. At the time of infamous whining he was lapping clearly faster than Vettel, which propmpted Vettels pleas to get him out of his way. He got slower after the third pitstop when he was ordered to rev-down his engine. While it seems Vettel was not, contrary to what the team insists.

        Whereas Rosberg was clearly faster than Hamilton and asked for permission to pass. Still can’t see the difference?

        1. “He got slower after the third pitstop when he was ordered to rev-down his engine. While it seems Vettel was not..”
          Isn’t that the same thing Hamilton was told to do, while it seems Nico was not..until after he had passed Lewis Hamilton twice-in 2 short laps-without being able to hold onto the positions gained on both occasions.
          If you were the team principal, what would you do? Sacrifice vital points and money too as the 2 battle for position.

          1. Hamilton had a fuel problem and had to slow down. Webber need not have slowed down at all , he did because he kept his part of the agreement . And after the pitstops , both of them were asked to turn engine down and coast to a 1-2 . Vettel just went on with it and overtook webber while he had a superior engine setting to webber. Only one thing I don’t get is Rosberg could have easily passed Hamilton in DRS zone as he was clearly faster and ross told not to .where is the risk in that ?

          2. @hamilfan – I somehow doubt that Webber didn’t either have to save fuel or his engine, otherwise he’d just turn it back up again to defend against Vettel. The team don’t control these things, the drivers do and if he felt he needed to and it wouldn’t compromise his race he could have just fought back.

          3. @hamilfan _ There is always something to save in motor racing. If it’s not fuel, it’s tyres or gear box or engine etc. There may be other reasons why mark was told to rev down apart from the team being in a comfortable position to win.

          4. @vettel1,@latina Maybe they did not want to risk another collision and mark obliged (That’s not what he should have done by the way : If vettel breaches an order so should he ) . But Mark went for the more sensible option to collect some points rather than go for vettel . Again, my point is either
            1) Go all out against team orders (arguably the best option) (or)
            2) Follow team orders
            Don’t use team orders when you want to pass your teammate and then show the finger to your team when they ask you something . That’s why RBR are pissed at him . Don’t you think they would wan’t him to be a 4 times world champion after all this success . Again for those of you who say , Maximizing team strategy isn’t the best , then let vettel and webber have it out with their own infinity cars .
            They could have just let both of them race each other with engines fully on right from when they were 1-2 without one driver having to compromise the other . I am looking forward to how Webber reacts on the track to this .

        2. @cyclops_pl

          Watch the race again and you’ll see that Vettel was faster for almost the entire race.

          1. @f1fannl, Sure Vettel was faster all race long, so please explain how he was behind Webber.

          2. @hohum

            Because Red Bull failed to realize where Vettel would end up after the pitstop.

            That’s another thing I find funny about some comments. People suggesting Webber deserved to win because he made the right call with the first pitstop. He didn’t make any calls at all. Or did people miss the overly obvious radio message to Webber to “Stay Out!” after they had realized releasing Vettel into a group of cars wasn’t exactly a smart decision.

      3. OmarR-Pepper (@)
        24th March 2013, 16:38

        I agree. I think, like the F1F mugs say: “REAL RACERS DON’T NEED TEAM ORDERS”

        So I’m happy for Seb and dissapoined for Nico’s team

        1. The Next Pope
          25th March 2013, 19:37

          Don’t bring Merc into this. It wasn’t the issue of team orders, it’s Seb’s character flaw that seems to be shocking here. ;]
          He knifed Webber when he put his guard down.

  11. “But right now I want to say the truth.”

    Truth = The words from our PR director

  12. Honestly, this is why I am angry he didn’t listen to team orders. I hate team orders, but with his petulant behavior, I can never side with him.

    But if instead he held his ground, admitted he disobeyed team orders and gave sufficient explanation, I may side with him.

    But not like this. The apology is insincerity of the highest order.

    1. Totally agree.

      If the team championship wan’t so important, I would want the team to suspend him for a race or two and give the reserve driver some experience.

  13. If the great Ayrton Senna was alive today, who would he admire more, Hamilton and Vettel or Rosberg and Webber?

    1. Schumacher

      1. precisely! He’d respect Schumi because he was a ruthless, cut-throat, take no prisoners WDC.

        1. If A Senna still alive then Schumi would never be champion

    2. Ayrton was a man of his word. If he’d agreed to something he wouldn’t go against his word later.

      1. Ehm, if you truely believe that, I suppose there’s not much sense in discussing what led to the first on track inter team tangle with Prost then.
        To me it looks like this being not all that different a situation.

        1. @bascb if memory serves me it was Imola 1989 – it was alleged the confusion was that prost considered tamburello to be the first corner ‘whoever was leading to first corner’ whereas senna considered tosa as first corner because tamburello and villeneuve are taken flat out. Senna out broke Prost into tosa and took the lead…

          1. thats the one @me262!

      2. Senna would’ve done exactly what Vettel did today. I’d bet my life on it!

        1. Vettel is here to race and to compete with other drivers for the victory. Normally, everyone does it. F1 is getting bored day by day with these silly team orders.

          1. So is Mark but when you’re told to turn down the engine and back off as there is no threat from any other team then you turn down the engine and back off, you don’t keep pushing and overtake your team mate who has turned his engine down and backed off.

            You may not like team orders but there is a world of difference between this situation and the sort of thing we saw in Austria in 2002; today Red Bull (and Mercedes) made the right decision and Vettel should have done as he was told, just as Rosberg did.

          2. @beneboy

            Almost like when you’re told to look after the tyres and back off as there is no threat from any other team then you look after the tyres and back off, you don’t keep pushing and overtake your team mate who has turned his engine down and backed off. But this being Silverstone 2011.

            Or is there some unwritten rule that makes it different when Webber is the recipient?

        2. He would, but he would never say sorry… He would be: you’re a racer be a racer… That why he still had most people’s respect…

        3. @hellotraverse it still would not be something to be proud about. Cease fire is cease fire.

    3. Why does that matter? Senna was a racing driver with notable flaws, one of them being aggressive to the point of being dangerous. Senna was one of the greatest drivers of all time, not the second coming. His hypothetical and unknowable opinion on today’s GP mean nothing.

    4. answer: Vettel

      why? because he’ll do anything to win.

  14. Liar… that is all.

  15. This guy reminds me of Lance Armstrong.

    He says it’s Marks win and also says he had no idea of the team orders???

    Basically he’s saying that the team never ever gave him team orders.

    Vettell is a highly protected species at RBR and it ain’t changing.

    1. He’s low but hes not that low. He didn’t even blood dope

      1. He’s a well trained generic PR machine like Armstrong.

        1. @hpward Oh don’t start with such nonsense. Armstrong and Vettel are nothing alike. No F1 driver is like Armstrong.

    2. Nonsense. I don’t like Vettel at all and his behaviour towards his team and teammate was appalling and showed just how little he regards his Red-Bull team but to compare him to Armstrong is out of order.

      1. How about Bernie & Armstrong ;)

    3. @howard – disobeying team orders (which is a perfectly legal thing to do) and blood doping (which is a perfectly illegal thing to do) are very different things. By all means criticise his comments (as I have) but don’t draw such ridiculous comparisons, it just rubbishes your argument.

      1. Absolutely! Some comments here are just complete hyperbole with no substantive argument. Rubbish indeed!

  16. I wouldn’t blame him at all for wanting to take the victory. It’s what drivers do. But by asking the team to “get him (Mark) out of the way,” he’s just lost a lot of respect.

    1. This is where he lost me. Wants team orders when it’s not in his favour, ignores them later. I’d be more likely to forgive this had he not cried on the radio earlier.

      1. The Next Pope
        25th March 2013, 19:46

        Yeah, people seem to have forgotten about this one. Would have not minded too much at first, if this race had not ended the way it did.

    2. Rosberg did the same with Hamilton. Alonso does the same constantly with Massa. Schumacher did it with Barrichello and Massa. Senna did it as well… It’s nothing new.

  17. This is nonsense – driver is apologising for not obeying team orders. I know that teams run their business and want to be successful, to score maximum points, but they shouldn’t forget, that millions of people are watching F1 around the globe. And fight for the lead was the most fascinating thing during this race, it was cracking. Robbing such moments from fans is showing disrespect. Maybe next time they will agree before the race, which driver must win? F1 is sport and it should be about fighting for win.

    1. That’d be fine if it cost $5 to enter every race. When it’s hundreds of millions of dollars for a team, and winning the constructors championship pays so much, it’s a team sport, whether we like it or not.

    2. It is… or are you one of those people who conveniently forget that F1 is a team sport, & the constructor’s championship is what pays the team real money? Vettel acts as if he’s bigger than the team. Without team Red Bull, no Sebastian Vettel 3 time WDC. The driver’s championship isn’t the only part of the sport. The teams are comprised of hundreds & thousands of individuals who put their hard work, blood, sweat & tears into giving these guys world class machinery to run around in on race weekends, & Vettel just gave his team a big middle finger as if he’s the only one in team Red Bull that matters, or that he’s doing them a favor taking their millions & driving their car.

      1. Don’t forget where those money come from – fans. Fans also pay money for opportunity watch race on the track or through television, buying merchandise and etc. And then, they are robbed from seeing real racing.

        1. I was looking online last night at three possible races to attend this year and the prices of the tickets. After today’s debacle why would anyone pay that much money to watch the teams NOT race untill the end? I understand team orders have gone on forever but doesn’t this take the “sport” of it? Not to start an argument, how many times have you ever seen IndyCar or NASCAR coasting to the end of a race (not counting a last lap crash)

    3. Take a look at where Vettel finally went past Webber, and you can clearly see he could have got run off track or even worse, they could both have been knocked out if Webber decided to play hard. So As much as you can applaud Vettel making the attempt to get past, so also must you appreciate Webber had the right to defend strongly, even at the risk to both cars.

    4. If cars are going to race at maximum all the time, then the financial constraint rules will have to be removed, so there is no need to turn engines down. Then you will see real racing between 2 or 3 big teams and only 10 cars on the grid. These rules have resulted in a series where a car from 5 or 6 teams could win a race, which I think is a lot more exciting that the occassional last laps battle between teammates.

      Also you have to remember that telling team drivers to conserve their engines for the next race is no where near as bad as telling one driver to move over for the other.

    5. Webber had turned his engine down. Without team orders, obviously he wouldn’t have done that so ironically your argument is flawed. This racing was great, but to say it was because team orders were ignored is missing the point because one driver did and the other didn’t.

      1. But he saw Vettel coming, so he could turn it at maximum again.

        1. The Next Pope
          25th March 2013, 19:48

          I keep reading that Webber was assured Vettel wasn’t gonna attack? I haven’t heard it myself.

  18. Mark did the right thing when he ignored orders and so did Vettel today.

    1. But Seb doesn’t acknowledge that he did in fact ingore orders. Instead, he is claiming the contrary (unlike Mark in the past) and this reeks of insolence to me.

    2. vuelve kowalsky
      24th March 2013, 12:26

      agree, but don’t apologize for it. Go ahead and tell it like it is, and may be compensate at the end of the year, if there is a chance.
      Rosberg was the one everybody should be talking about. he was robbed of a podium.

  19. it’s not that simple!! coming up to the final pit-stops Mark was told Seb was not a threat and so he turned down his engine and I’m sure that also played a factor in him choosing the HARD tyres, choosing the tyre that would most likely last to the end of the race.. If he knew that the race was on I’m sure he would have chosen the MEDIUMS as he was on low fuel and they clearly had higher performace.. in the end it was the difference between the HARD and MEDIUM tyres that proved the difference between the two drivers and that’s what allowed Seb to pass..

    Seb did not win that race fair and square and that’s what Mark is upset about.. he got stabbed in the back with the undercut and choice of MEDIUMS and engine map set to FULL.

    1. Mark was happier on the hard tyres, the stint he did on medium tyres is what eroded the lead he had built up.
      Since it was a wet race at the start, they didn’t have to run both compounds, so he could’ve easily done all his stints on hards.
      That point is invalid.

      Everything else is up for discussion though.

      1. Let’s not forget that Mark had only one set of new medium before the race, he had to put hard tyres in his last pitstop.

        1. why did mark only have one set of mediums? and just because mediums on high fuel aren’t quicker doesn’t mean that is the case on low feul..

          if you were listening to the pre-podium conversations between SV & Adrian Newey you would have heard them say that the medium was a much quicker tyre for final stint.. sure WEB has high deg on high fuel but low fuel is a different matter..

          Also, Ross Brawn also admitted in post race interview that choosing HARDs for last stint for HAM & ROS was a mistake for last stint as well..

          so respectfully disagree that this is an invalid point!

          1. Mark had only one set of mediums because he used two in qualifying, while Vettel made it through Q3 with only one set.

            Clearly Webber was comfortable with the hards, and since he had new hard tyres, it wouldn’t have made sense to use old mediums.

          2. they qualified on INTERS

          3. and mark only used one set of INTERS while seb used 2 in Q3?!?!?

  20. After reading Vettel’s “apology”, my trusty **-o-meter entered the red zone.

  21. If your gonna ignore team orders to take the all precious win,then don’t apologise for it …

  22. Sorry for posting again, but I want to make something clear to everyone saying Vettel should be commended for disobeying team orders.

    How can he be commended if he never owed up? Be a man, stand your ground and you can earn my respect.

  23. This(he) is so stupid, we all heard on the team radio:
    “Sebastian this is silly” refering to his attack on Webber.
    To then say that he did not know dosn’t add-up. He is always pushing the car when he dont need it. Sometimes its fun to see but when your own team says that they are going to ride to the end without overtaking you have to respect it. See Hamilton and Rosberg.

    Vettel, you just lost my respect.

  24. Today’s grand prix showed exactly what I think is wrong with Red Bull’s line-up: there is no mutual respect and their is no respect for the team. Sebastian Vettel should not have overtaken Mark Webber, but he did out of disrespect – there is no way any apologies can make up for that. Red Bull must somehow find a way to let their two drivers figure out a way to have a healthy professional relationship, or they have to look for a different combination. Mercedes showed what a good driver line-up is today.. Red Bull, take notice.

    1. @andae23

      there is no mutual respect and their is no respect for the team

      I think you are on the right track there. May I add, that in the RB team is like there is an inner group supporting Vettel mostly. That’s how I see it. If the team agrees with both the drivers that after the last pitstop there is no more racing, than it is obvious some other working underground, suggests to Vettel to ignore that order. And Vettel was pretty comfortable after the win, he never realised what reactions that move had caused to the team, thinking that he would have had the support of the team for that one. Only after he contacted to the team, he got the first impressions of the upset in the RB garage. It gives the impressions of a divided team.
      Whether it was right or wrong…, well I believe it was wrong since all had agreed that they are not racing after the last pitstop. It is like the situation between Hamilton and Button in Turkey 2010.

      1. @caci99 Whatever it is, something is brewing in the Red Bull team. As you point out, Vettel might be feeling he has lost his number one status. But on the other hand, Webber feels the exact opposite, saying that Vettel will be protected in the team orders row. The body language of Horner and Marko after the race says it all: they didn’t know how to respond to questions, suggesting that they’ve come to a point where they just don’t know what to do.

  25. Ultimately this is a sad day for the spectators, to see what was shaping up to be a great race ruined by an intended processional 1st-4th position. Not at all happy with what Vettel did, and do not for one second believe he didn’t know what was expected of him, but ultimately it is the teams that are ruining the race for those watching.

    Lets assume team orders are not allowed and no suggestion of them playing out was in place; we would have seen a great fight between Vettel and Webber in which they scrap for position with Vettel likely getting the upper hand, but as a result, scrubbing the tyres and significantly dropping pace, which leads to Hamilton and Rosberg catching them up, maybe having a tussle, only for them too to suffer from fuel issues. You would have ended up with 4 unpredictable cars fighting for 1st, with possibly cars behind (if able to catch up due to strategy) coming back into the race and maybe upsetting the order further.

    It should be up to the drivers to decide how far they can push the pace and think of the long view, rather than the lap they are on; at least that way a good race could have turned into a great race.

    Having said that, best post-race I’ve seen :)

    1. F1 is both a team and an individual sport. Even without explicit team orders, there are codes or pre-race agreements that would prevent this type of racing, unless there is a direct policy of not having team orders (like McLaren in 2010).

      Actually ironically it was the fact that there are team orders at all that led to the fight, because one obeyed them (and turned their engine down) and the other disobeyed them (to bring on the fight).

  26. vuelve kowalsky
    24th March 2013, 12:21

    I have to congratulate vettel because of a will to win i miss in other drivers. i understand he is well covered by the team to be able to do that. they must be unimpressed for sure, but what are they going to do? fire him? He is an old fashion type of driver. He is there for himself. And i must admit that i like it.
    I only wished he was more honest, instead of apologizing without meaning it. I imagine in the future he will tell the truth.

    1. +1

      Thanks god we still have drivers like Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel… Others can go play and moan…

    2. Yeah I agree with all of that.

    3. +1
      I completely agree with that view.

    4. I disagree: a driver who’d rather win unfairly than finish second fairly is a driver I cannot respect. The whole point for F1 drivers IMO is to prove that they are the best driver, and winning races like that doesn’t show that at all – quite the opposite, really.

      1. @andae23 exactly. winning by such underhanded and degrading method is self-degrading and disrespectful to the team.

  27. What Seb did today was a bit distasteful, but how was it different to when Mark was ordered to hold at Silverstone a couple years ago?No difference, both were unprofessional.

    As far as the fans were concerned, Webber’s actions were raved, because he is the underdog, the neglected child in the relationship, and it suited his general gritty personality. It was accepted, but it was no better than what Vettel did today. These guys are professionals. This is a professional team sport and if certain agreements are made as part of the game plan, then it is up to them to honour it.

    Having said this,perhaps there is more behind the scenes that we arent privy to. On the surface however, it is not right and it is unacceptable behavior from a World Champion.

    What would Schumacher or Senna have done? Probably what Seb did, but they were hardly model team players now were they?

    1. Difference is, Mark held it ground and owned up that he did disobey team orders. As for Vettel, did he do the same? No, he issues an apology and feigns ignorance. Same thing happened during the podium interview ceremony.

  28. Team Orders sure are appropriately named aren’t they. They exist only for the teams interests, not the fans.

    The fans want to see no holds barred wheel to wheel racing.

    Vettel should have at least told the team he was not going to follow orders so they could warn Mark and then we would have seen a true battle.

    What we got was the Motorsport equivalent of a sucker punch.

  29. do people think schumacher,or a hamilton or alonso would have stayed at the back and not fight for a win if they were in a competitive car and able to fight for the win. all this vettel hate is ridiculous..he did the fans a favour and gave us a great race..thats how f1 should be..i agree he broke some team order but seriously.. when did any of the red bull drivers obey team orders :), get over it..vettel was much quicker than mark on those tyres. anyway everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

    1. vettel was much quicker than mark on those tyres

      Webber was driving to a target lap time when Seb caught him up. He basically got stabbed in the back which some will approve of, but it doesn’t sit right with me at all.

      1. @venom Shumacher has done it. Ironically at the first race of Malaysian Grand Prix :)

  30. i hate all this PR talk, he won the race, he should be proud of it.
    i can’t count how many times Mark disobeyed team orders, if he wanted that win he should have got it on track.
    Props to Seb for an awesome win

    1. +1, agreed!! we need more racing drivers not robots!!

    2. Huh? Trust is everything in life, and without it, you have nothing. Vettel breached that trust and for me, became no better than Schumacher for cheating his way to wins!

      1. Ooh, and Webber must be right down there too (except he has less wins), in your world.

  31. I think that there is a lot of unfair stuff being said here.
    There seems to be a number of people who say that Rosberg should’ve stopped whining and overtaken Hamilton, despite team orders telling him not to. But when Vettel does that exact thing, out come the pitchforks.

    Also, think back to the 2011 British Grand Prix. Webber ignored a team order not to race his team mate, he didn’t get the same level of vitriol Vettel is receiving now, and was praised by many for his “I’ll tell them where they can put their team orders” attitude.

    There’s a double standard that the drivers are held to.

    This type of controversy happens every time team orders affect the outcome of a race, as there will always be one driver who gets the bad end of the deal. While I don’t think team orders should be re-banned (as that would just make the teams return to circumventing the rule anyway), I think Red Bull (and to some extent Mercedes) need to evaluate how they handle this issue in future, because at the moment their management of the issue is sub-par.

  32. The only people who owe us an apology are the team management at Red Bull and Mercedes. Team orders have their place in F1, but that place was not anywhere in this race.

    If Vettel had been leading Webber, the team had ordered the drivers to hold position, Webber had said “Sod this!” and taken the win – then everybody currently claiming to be “disgusted” would be screaming themselves hoarse with delight. And you all know it.

    As for Mercedes, I was hoping for a real team battle this year to get some sense of the relative strength of Hamilton and Rosberg. But I get the impression that Brawn is simply not going to let the Twenty Million Pound Man finish the season behind his teammate. If Rosberg had also ignored orders the result would be fairer and we’d have had a better race.

    I support the concept of team orders, but seeing them used like this makes me with they were still banned.

    1. If Vettel had been leading Webber, the team had ordered the drivers to hold position, Webber had said “Sod this!” and taken the win – then everybody currently claiming to be “disgusted” would be screaming themselves hoarse with delight. And you all know it.

      Exactly. I look forward to pointing it out the next time that exact thing happens (and then to the inevitable tortuous explanations for how “different” THAT situation is).

  33. hahaha. Good heavens – if it had been Hamilton who disobeyed team orders and overtook say, Jenson Button…this forum would be smoking with insults.

  34. vuelve kowalsky
    24th March 2013, 12:38

    This remainds me of the san marino gp in 1982. Pironi disobeyed team orders to keep positions and overtook his teamate during the last lap. He won in front of 100.000 italian fans. Gilles villeneuve was so upset, he never spoke to him again. 15 days later, still very angry, villeneuve died during qualy for the belgian gp, trying to better didier’s time.
    It was the first time i saw the death of a driver. I lost my motorsport inocence that day.

  35. Vettel and Maldonado must be hanging out together. Don’t believe what you see, only what I say.

  36. @ Traverse
    “As for cry baby Webber, GROW UP!! I thought you were made of Aussie grit, not pink fluffy marshmallows.”

    Serious Trav- go stand in the far que mate! His is full of the Aussies Grit and if you could not tell that from the podium you have NFI what that means!! (Not Aussie I EASILY assume mate) He was P**sed, Seb knew he was P**SED and he made his point= no cry baby !!!

    I dont like team orders but I hate comments like “Mark is too slow, get ho out of the way!!”

    Seb has always been smug, and likeable at the same time- like Kimi (I am really starting to like Kimi hey!!). Recently I , on this forum, have defended him as his seems to lack respect as a 3 x WDC. While I still respect his driving am more so questioning his personal qualities (and I dont like that!!)

  37. What some people seem to not realise is the difference between what Webber did in 2011 and what Vettel did today. There’s a slight difference between driving close to another driver and showing that you are as fast as them, without overtaking (as Webber did), and completely ignoring an order not to overtake, and then claiming it was “unintentional” and a big “mistake” (as Vettel did).

    At Silverstone Webber didn’t actually overtake, all he did was get close to Vettel to show he was faster, but stayed behind (and actually dropped back once he’d proved his point). That’s quite different to making repeated attempts to overtake, putting the cars in danger, resulting in an overtake that was completely against the team’s orders.

      1. Hmm that barely looked like an attempt to be honest… I mean, who would try and pass someone on the outside of Copse? Plus he backed of quite a bit before the corner…

  38. David not Coulthard (@)
    24th March 2013, 12:52

    All this is just PR stuff…

    I’m no sure, I mean, who told you that he even saw a PR director after that? We’ve got to “confrom” that first, I think.

    Or perhaps it had something to do with this:

    In the past Red Bull never made much of a point of him ignoring orders to slow down and setting fast laps.

    Which one might help those who try to argue that this is the truth:

    That’s what its all about EGO. Vettel as the mind of a child, not a man.

    But the difference fastest laps and passing Webber should’ve been that bit more obvious to him if the 2nd quote above was true.

    1. David not Coulthard (@)
      24th March 2013, 12:53

      O’m not sure.

      And I suppose I’ll make an admission here just in case I made a hillariously wrong comment: I missed the race.

      1. David not Coulthard (@)
        24th March 2013, 12:54


  39. This puts Horner in a very tricky situation if it is true that they treat each driver the same and Seb disregard the orders. If he gets away with it, what will Horner do then…leave?

    And, I thought it was interesting to see that Newey didn’t celebrate with the drivers after the champange as i usually the case.

    Can’t wait to see the outcome of this.

    1. *as is usually

    2. Horner is Mr Marko’s lapdog.

  40. Webber had Vettel covered and in turn they had the mercs covered and the hierarchy knew it so it made sense to turn down the wick and conserve the hardware. Vettel, your a canine.

  41. I’m not a fan of team orders, and would rather the drivers are allowed to race. But Webber has played number 2 to Vettel and not fought him so many times in the past, the least Seb could do is return the favour when it’s his turn to hold position.

    Some say it’s the sign of a cutthroat racer, but I see today’s actions as a low blow and those of a coward and poor team mate.

    1. A coward…yes that would be it

    2. But Webber has played number 2 to Vettel and not fought him so many times in the past

      When exactly was that?

  42. He is disgusting, I hope history is not forgiving.

  43. As a compromise solution, maybe team orders could be banned except in the last six races of the season.

  44. FlyingLobster27
    24th March 2013, 13:32

    Vettel and Rosberg reacted differently to orders, but I won’t judge that. Those who disgraced F1 today are the teams, Red Bull and Mercedes. Team orders are out and IT’S ONLY ROUND TWO! Is there NO right time in the year whatsoever for team-mates to have a fair shot at wins and podiums anymore? By all means tell them not to do anything over-ambitious, not to defend or attack too hard, but at this stage of the season, it is plain immoral in my mind to deny team-mates a chance to race each other.

  45. So they had an agreement to race till the last pit-stop and coast afterwards. Then why didn’t the team let Vet have a go at Webber before the pitstop. Vettel said as much on the radio, “mark is too slow”, then got told to be patient as the race is long. I think Vettel felt shafted by that and took the victory anyway after the final pitstop.

    1. Because when Vettel complained of Webber slowing him down, Webber was actually turning faster lap times than Vettel. Vettel was losing ground to Webber at that time, so Vettel had no justification to make a demand like that.

  46. So loads of comments applauding that Vettel overtook Webber when told not to, does this mean all these people reckon Gilles Villeneuve was at fault for being overtaken on the last lap to lose the win to his team mate after having an agreement not to overtake each other on the last lap?

    1. @oel-f1 – Funny that you’re going back 30 years to find a comparison, when just 2 years ago, Mark Webber did what Vettel did today.

      Gilles (1982), and Seb (2011), had outperformed their teammates prior. Mark hasn’t.

      1. Gilles (1982), and Seb (2011), had outperformed their teammates prior. Mark hasn’t.

        Mark was 5s ahead of Seb before the last pit stop, the problem in this situation is that Mark was told to slow down while Vettel was pushing hard, it is true that Seb was on fire in the last stint but who knows how it would have been finished between the two because in the middle of the race Seb on option tyres and still couldn’t pass Mark on prime tyres
        The team is responsible for this situation, at least they could have warned Mark that Seb will not accept team orders and in that situation both drivers have to race, not letting Mark surprised by Seb breathing down his neck when he exited the pit while he was 5s ahead before the stop

        1. The team is responsible for this situation

          @tifoso1989 – I agree with that. I fail to see how Red Bull aren’t guilty here, but Ferrari were guilty in 2010.

          1. but Ferrari were guilty in 2010

            Where is the magic link between the 2 stories ?

          2. @tifoso1989 – I mean with regards to applying TO in the first place. Ferrari received a lot of heat from fans for doing it, while it almost seems forgotten that Red Bull did it yesterday (and at an earlier point of the season, to boot).

  47. Funny this is the same guy who talks about “Dirty Tricks”
    What can he say about what he did today????

    1. According to Webber, ” I ignored the team and I was battling to the end”.

      Let’s cut to the chase here -your idea of a “dirty trick” is Vettel winning.

      How people can justify to themselves the ludicrously unfair double standards they wield against Vettel is a mystery best left for psychologists.

      1. Just reply on what was written, do not read my mind or say something about me that i didn’t wrote.
        This is not double standard , i don’t care if Vettel or Webber won, more than that it doesn’t bother if Red Bull or any other team used team order, but what bother me the most is this hypocrisy
        The Red Bull team (and now Vettel) are trying always to hide the truth, they are always lying and pretending that they are doing what the others did

        Let’s cut to the chase here -your idea of a “dirty trick” is Vettel winning.

        The guy has admitted that he made a mistake, well i should not listen to what he said , you probably know better than him & Mark & the whole team

        How people can justify to themselves the ludicrously unfair double standards they wield against Vettel is a mystery best left for psychologists

        I think that applies to you

        1. Just reply on what was written

          I did reply to what was written – the claim that one driver passing another on the race track is a “dirty trick”.

          what bother me the most is this hypocrisy

          That’s what bothers me too, brother. Believe me. But I think we’re bothered by different hypocrisy.

          The Red Bull team (and now Vettel) are trying always to hide the truth, they are always lying

          Really? Always? That’s some subtle and nuanced thinking you’ve got there.

          1. the claim that one driver passing another on the race track is a “dirty trick”.

            you clearly missed(or trying on purpose to miss) the point ,let me explain and i hope this time you understand
            one driver passing another on race track is not a “Dirty Trick”
            the “Dirty Trick” is when one driver is leading with 5s of advantage and was told by his team to preserve his car(lowering the enigine power) and his tyres exits the pits and see in his mirrors his teammate who took benefit from this situation and closed that gap when he was pushing
            If you didn’t understand now just tell me !!!!!!!!!!!!!

    2. YOu caught the fish there @Tifoso1989 !! :-)

  48. Maybe they didn’t tell him “Mark is too slow, get him out of the way” was aired…

    1. Horner has since confirmed multiple times, that Vettel was defenitely told by his team to hold station, but chose to “not hear/not understand” the clear message.

  49. Guys, what is that? Are we really talking about a sport? F1 racers giving excuses and feeling sorry about being at the podium? I want to go back to the 80’s…

  50. there is no problem going for the win, the problem is taking advantage of some with an understanding of not fighting back or overtake. also that he couldn’t do this one thing after all the **** that mark has has to put up with over the last few yrs (number 2 driver). A accumulation of mark Webbers frustrations over the last few yrs and Vettels unsportsmanlike behavior.

  51. Poor Mark Webber. Given that he was told the cars would hold position he is rightly extremely upset with Seb’s actions. Total disrespect for the team and his ‘team mate’ from Vettel, what a heel!

  52. WilliamB (@william-brierty)
    24th March 2013, 14:10

    This race epitomizes why I cannot stand Sebastian Vettel. Rather like Ayrton Senna in the early 90s, Vettel has this impression that he is some how entitled to take the win. Webber did the better job, and was plain faster throughout much of the race, and he took the win in my eyes. I cannot imagine what was going through Vettel’s head, did he just think that he could directly defy team orders and skew a race result and then not receive a whole heap of hostility just because he is this “golden kid”? Rosberg did the sensible thing; so why did the high and mighty Sebastian Vettel not? You might well be one of the fastest drivers in the world, but you have to concede when you’re beaten, but Vettel simply cannot compute the entire concept of being beaten by his teammate, and in the process does not come across as the wise and powerful champion that Alonso, but instead that of a spoilt kid.

    1. @william-brierty

      You might well be one of the fastest drivers in the world, but you have to concede when you’re beaten, but Vettel simply cannot compute the entire concept of being beaten by his teammate, and in the process does not come across as the wise and powerful champion that Alonso, but instead that of a spoilt kid.

      I believe Alonso is a great driver too, but he’s had a bad day or two in the same regard that you’re criticizing Vettel.

      1. WilliamB (@william-brierty)
        24th March 2013, 15:16

        Where do I say that Alonso is faultless? For the first half of the 2010 Alonso drove poorly, and had a incident of some nature almost every race, and Alonso was beaten by Massa in the 2010 German Grand Prix, although he was handed the win. However, I can’t remember an occassion when Alonso put himself above the team’s commands. In the 2007 US Grand Prix he was quicker than Hamilton, but he respected McLaren’s decision to keep the status quo. We don’t see this desperate and irrational action from Alonso that we have often seen from Vettel; a man that has had it so good that he simply cannot cope with the idea of not taking the win. I will always remember what Vettel said to Rocky after he congratulated Vettel on 2nd place at the 2011 Hungarian Grand Prix: “But I WANT to win!”. Says it all really. When Vettel is inevitably handed a below par car I fully expect him to go to pieces.

        1. @william-brierty

          Where do I say that Alonso is faultless?

          Yes, you didn’t say Alonso was faultless, but you said he was a “wise and powerful champion”, with Vettel in comparison a “spoilt kid”. And in that US GP, he tried to pass LH, and shook his fist at the pitwall at one point. I’m not excusing Vettel, I’m just saying that he isn’t necessarily “spoilt” as opposed to someone else being “wise/powerful”.

          And re: Hungary 2011/below par cars: Wanting to win is a negative attribute now? You could easily turn that comment around and claim that it shows how determined he is, which could bode well, if he were to drive a worse car than he is now.

          1. WilliamB (@william-brierty)
            24th March 2013, 19:24

            I am in no way saying that wanting to win is a bad thing, but NEEDING to win, as Vettel clearly feels he does, certainly is. Alonso does not act like that. When Alonso finishes second he thinks, “Hmm, 18 points, that’ll be good for the championship.” When Vettel finishes second he thinks, “Arrrrgh, that loss of 7 points hurts me so.” That kind of attitude does not bode well for when the inevitable day comes and he does not have the best car out there. Vettel is starting to come across spoilt. He talks about feeling “privileged” every time he takes the win, but he doesn’t, he just thinks that’s how a race normally ends. I so hope that the RB10 is a poor car and that Vettel gets the wake-up call he so badly needs. It’s a shame really, because look at him, he’s a true great of our sport, and there is just no need for him to act so childishly. I think today’s race just beautifully illustrates my long held belief that Alonso and Hamilton are better than Vettel, and are just that much more complete drivers.

  53. The overtake on Mark Webber doesn’t bother me, he’s a racing driver and you race TO WIN.
    However what does bother me is the fact RBR have always supported Vettel, they have always been behind him and he couldn’t follow their orders and ignored them. Christian Horner said it was getting “silly”, Vettel must have known they had to stay in position. Webber will say he’s been “marginalised” by the team before e.g. Silverstone 2010 and he will feel massively aggrieved. He must think that Seb gets “preferred treatment” and now he ignores team orders. Wonder how they move.

    1. WilliamB (@william-brierty)
      24th March 2013, 15:25

      What bothers me is that Vettel mounted an attack on Webber in full knowledge that he was disadvantaged with lower fuel mixes, a turned down engine and in tyre conservation mode. There are just too many examples of Webber being buggered by Red Bull for his position within the team to be in any dispute. However, this is not the issue. This issue is that Vettel ignored team orders, “pulled a fast one” and skewed the race result all out of sheer irrational desperation to win. I hope Red Bull place sanctions upon Vettel in payment for the media nightmare that is currently burning around the team, and I hope Webber goes into the next race assured in the knowledge that although he doesn’t have the points or the trophy, he beat Sebastian Vettel at the Malaysian Grand Prix.

  54. If Horner doesn’t penalize Vettel, then his stature as team principal will be exposed as a “fake”. (for lack of a better word, I’m not native to english)

  55. Who cares what he said, the thing i don’t get is why do you have to explain yourself for winning a formula one race? He went for it because, well frankly, he wanted to win? I’d watch Vettel pass Webber for the lead all day long as opposed to Rosberg, Massa, Rubens.. etc… To be honest, formula one is heading down a very very bad road.

    1. I think there’s too much money to lose. Team orders and show-runs like we saw today from Mercedes in the first races of a new season are silly. Better they go for budget caps and distribute the TV money not by points but equally among teams then the thing Seb pulled today would be a no brainer to cheer for.

  56. To me personally this whole situation is ridiculous. I find it strange that someone has to apologise for winning a race? What has this world come to? Both Vettel and Webber clearly fought for their positions despite orders, and Vettel turned out to be faster and Webber was left with sour grapes.

    I think team orders should be banned. Vettel won, and Rosberg should have overtaken Hamilton. And as I’ve said above, if the teams want to drive their cars (instead of the drivers themselves), then they should simply install a remote control system on every car and operate the cars from the garage with a joystick.

    1. Thing is, team orders did exist then Germany 2010 happened, so we can’t win either way. But even if they were banned, Webber would probably have won, because he wouldn’t have been conserving his tyres and fuel (exactly what Vettel should have been doing) as much as he did, so Vettel probably wouldn’t have passed him so easily/at all… but it doesn’t really matter now anyway.

  57. A very wise decision by Vettel to apologize publicly. He has already been scolded by his boss and Webber. Good on him to not make comments like, “I am a racer, and I will fight till the last metre”.

    I think whatever happened in the team debrief, it was made loud and clear to Vettel that no matter how many championships he wins, he is not bigger than the team. He cannot defy team orders.

    Good on Vettel to have realized his childish behavior. I hope he gives Webber a win sometime this season itself.

  58. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 15:23

    Everyone is so amiably cute nowdays it makes one cringe.

    F1 salaries are paid by us, the viewers not team efforts and i for want to see racing.

    Good on Vettel beating Webber. Sorry for Rosberg being too scared of contract closes not passing Ham with no fuel. I might understand supporting a driver aiming at title but not Ham now with an empty tank. What did he support, an empty tank?

    If Seb n Mark had a personal agreement not to pass in last 15 laps Seb is wrong as a man.

    I would rather watch paint dry than watch 1/3 race distance of team orders.

    As an engineer i understand Newey and Brawn wanting machines to come home safe but thats their job and mine.

    Let them race.

  59. Vettel did not listen to his team!! But neither should have Webber!! I am not happy about what happened to him but the RBR team handled this like a bunch of idiots!!! Declaring the race over fifteen laps before it is actually over is monumentally stupid!! Clearly they do not respect their drivers enough to let them race!! They will play the “team comes first” card again but a team which uses team orders in such fashion does not deserve any respect no matter how many races they’ve won!! This **** is right up there with Ferrari’s “Fernando is faster than you” saga!! Terribly sad to see this kinda thing in my favorite sport!!

    1. Absolutely agree. The RBR team is ultimately responsible for creating this situation. Vettel and Webber are both professionals, and know how to pass each other cleanly. They both realize the consequences of making a mistake and taking each other out. They have enough sense and skill not to do that. Just let them race.

      1. “Vettel and Webber are both professionals, and know how to pass each other cleanly”

        Sorry DGS but that is precisely the problem with this two in this situation. This professionalism is in doubt as to the both of them. After Turkey 2010 you can be sure there is a team policy never to let that kind of situation come to a head again. The policy obviously needs some better implementation.

    2. Declaring the race over fifteen laps before it is actually over is monumentally stupid!!

      agreed. which is why team orders should be banned! To stop the teams from manipulating when the race is actually over.

      1. @maksutov We already tried that from 2003-2010. Virtually every fan back then knew that was useless. You just end up with teams trying harder to hide their team orders… “faster than you” and all that.

  60. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 15:28

    Agree with Maksutov on his view.

  61. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 15:32

    It seems people do not understand the magnitude of F1 and comments like childish behaviour, give a win back, owe one. This is a multimillion meat grinder …come on. Where are thw people who watched the “gentlemen’s racing era?” Now there we had some politcorrect moves…

  62. When he says he’s not proud of the win, I believe him. But when he says he thinks it should’ve been Mark’s win, that can’t be true. Otherwise why attack your team mate who is not trying to defend his position by following his team’s orders? Why ignore the team and the other driver and do of your own mind? Surely with more time to think about it he has acknowledged that had Webber been told to race the battle would have been fairer, and probably that Mark would have come out on top. But while he can be sad for the way he did what he did, he can not have changed opinion on why he did it. He wanted to ignore Red Bull’s orders and betray Mark, and even if his instinct suggested that to him that does not justify him.

  63. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 15:46

    One last thing, where does the suggestion that Mark did not race take origin? He was faster of some corners, he was using DRS off back markers…why allthe comments suggesting Mark lay down and spread his legs? He foight well, best wheel to wheel this year, why do people think his engime was in “limp home mode” and he was catching a nap?

  64. The only way to deal with the issue of team orders completely is to cancel the Drivers’ Championship.

  65. Atm there are 2 schools of thought:

    A) Vettel is right and Rosberg is wrong (Drivers’ Championship more imprtant than Constructors)
    B) Rosberg is right and Vettel is wrong (Yes to Team Orders)

    1. A) Vettel is right and Rosberg is wrong (racing as it should be, however Webber is officially a puppet and has been deceived once again by his team)
      B) Rosberg is right and Vettel is wrong (Rosberg is now officially a puppet)
      and, finally
      C) There is no way that both Vettel and Rosberg can be right.

  66. What a mess. Why do I feel like these guys need to go on couples therapy? I will say though that Mr. and Mrs. Mercedes are only one long weekend in the country away from patching things up. The RedBull’s, not so much.

    I have no idea what to make of the RBR dust up so why am I even chiming in other than to say that this proves again to me my feeling that Webber should have gone to McLaren when he had his chance(s). That would be his cup of tea. Maybe he doesn’t have the fastest car but he is never going to win a title at RBR, whether because of Marko or because he simply doesn’t have what it takes politically, mentally to manage the Bieber-like character across the garage. Nor is he quick enough.

    As for Mercedes, I don’t think it’s so curious. Let’s remember back in 2010 in Turkey, after the RBR couple had their falling-out, as it were, McLaren were in the analogous position. Nose-to-tail with serious apparent fuel issues. Hamilton was ahead. Button passed him but Hamilton quickly re-passed. The team then demanded that they hold station. It was the right thing to do, probably.

    1. In such a tight field with :

      1)Massa moving over for Alonso always if required
      2)Grosjean moving over for Kimi (It has happened only once so far; last year @Singapore)
      3)Rosberg moving over for Lewis (as evident today)

      Vettel needs Webber to mount a challenge for his 4th title, and he might have just lost It today..
      But imagine, if he goes on to win the WDC this year by 8 points :-)

      1. 2)Grosjean moving over for Kimi

        I would delete that one. In fact maybe Grosjean should just move over for everyone. ;)

  67. Germany 2010: Team orders are the worst thing in the world.

    Malaysia 2013: Everyone loses their mind because a driver ignores team orders.

    1. Moral of the Story: No one likes Vettel

      1. Everyone loses their mind because a driver ignores team orders

        Because Webber was stubbed from the back

        1. which means its the teams fault.

  68. Ahmed Alhojairat (@)
    24th March 2013, 16:24

    I don’t like team orders, but.. we are talking about (Team) not just the driver and what he wants, there is no team want to lose a race!.. and the driver is PART of the TEAM.
    Vettel was selfish and just thinking about himself

  69. Ok, this might not be the right thing to do, but I found the press conference after Silverstone 2011. There are some interesting bits, like this one.

    Q: (Adam Hay-Nicholls – Metro) Mark, Christian Horner has said that you should be fine with the team orders at the end and if you and Seb had raced until the end you would both have ended up in the fence. Do you agree with that? Was it the right call? Does this mean realistically that you are out of this championship?
    MW: I am not fine with it. No. That’s the answer to that. If Fernando retires on the last lap we are battling for the victory so I was fine until the end. Of course I ignored the team as I want to try and get another place. Seb was doing his best and I was doing my best. I don’t want to crash with anyone, but that was it. I tried to do my best with the amount of conversation I had. One-way conversation obviously as I wasn’t talking too much back. There was a lot of traffic coming to me, but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front.

    Q:(Adam Hay-Nicholls – Metro) Do you remember roughly how many messages you had?
    MW: Probably four or five.

    It’s good to see that Mark said that he refused team orders and he raced as hard as he could, while today Vettel said that he didn’t want to go against the team and he wasn’t aware of the situation. It’s a shame, but I can understand why he did that.

    The thing that surprised me is that Vettel wasn’t upset at all back in 2011. He was perfectly fine with Webber trying to overtake him in the closing stages of the race. The team was not, if I remember well, but they didn’t point fingers at Webber too much. Though it’s fair to say that Horner had to defend from the media, team orders were a new thing for Red Bull at the time.

    I don’t understand all this mess about today. Yeah, sure, Seb took some risks and I understand that the team didn’t want that. But Mark way too upset about it. He showed Seb his middle finger on track, he crossed the finishing line very far from the team and from Vettel. Horner and Newey were very critical, too.

    I don’t know what to make of it. In my opinion the situation is not too different compared to Silverstone 2011. It’s true that Webber didn’t overtake Vettel two years ago, but he tried. Either there is something I am missing, or some people overreacted a bit.

    1. good post.

      It shows that driver do indeed ignore team orders.

      1. drivers*

  70. I don’t agree with team orders in F1, I don’t like team orders within F1… but I do believe in respect and integrity, if you agree to race up until the last pitstop, then you should abide by that agreement.

    I have tons of respect for Vettel as a driver, but now zero as a decent human being

    1. @f1bettingguru

      I have tons of respect for Vettel as a driver, but now zero as a decent human being


  71. He does not need to apologise. Webber ignored TO at Silverstone 2011. So did Button and Hamilton in Turkey 2010. If we do not see such actions in racing and just wait for strategic mistakes, then we’d better watch chess. Then, Webber left the same room for SV as Schumacher did in Hungaroring 2010 (for Barrichello). Webber must convince the team by getting poles and controlling the lead otherwise he will get the same treatment Massa and Barrichello had. If I were Mateschietz, I would have fired Webber (I am billionaire and terminating this contract is oh so easy), because he will definitely retaliate.

  72. I have always thought Vettel seems like a nice bloke out of the car and a complete tool in it. Today showed the line is much more blurred. A gentleman would never have done what he did today but a ruthless sportsman would have… Schumacher probably would have done the same, a Roger Federer character probably wouldn’t – so gentleman and ruthless sportsman are not mutually exclusive. I am also in the camp that feels that Vettel does still have something to prove… today, initially, I thought this victory seemed a really good one not like one where he just drove the quickest car. Then we found out the circumstances and it doesn’t seem quite as good. In any other walk of life if an employee flouted an instruction they would be punished. It will be interesting if Red Bull do the same.

  73. Sorry, but I don’t understand the people defending Vettel. In the past, team orders against Mark had been “look, we know you have the faster car, but Sebastian needs these points”. As much as people are saying that Webber ‘doesn’t follow team orders’, he still maintains position in the end (see: Silverstone 2011). He showed his displeasure for the team orders, but he didn’t pass Sebastian. I can respect that.

    In this situation, Mark had the faster car for most of the race. It wasn’t a Merc situation where they were giving the driver in front free points; RBR were worried about 1) a repeat of Turkey 2010 and 2) not completely abusing the tires in case Hamilton/Rosberg caught up. Mark had the car to stay in front, but followed the team orders and turned his engine down. Seb passing him in that situation is the equivalent of a sucker punch, or, as someone else put it, attacking the enemy during a ceasefire. I’m not a fan of team orders, but what Seb did was absolutely dirty, especially considering how many times Webber had helped him out.

    I would say I’d lost respect for him, but I had very little to begin with.

    1. As much as people are saying that Webber ‘doesn’t follow team orders’, he still maintains position in the end (see: Silverstone 2011). He showed his displeasure for the team orders, but he didn’t pass Sebastian. I can respect that.

      @utbowler0407 – See @yobo01 ‘s post. Webber tried and failed.

      1. But in the end, Webber didn’t pass him. Look at the video from when Seb and Mark were battling for position in Silverstone; it’s clear that Mark was trying to put pressure on Seb, but he was much more cautious about it (i.e. when he gets alongside, he could’ve kept his nose in there, but he backed off). Vettel’s pass on Webber today could’ve easily ended up with both of them out of the race. Getting that close to the wall was, in my opinion, stupid.

        If Seb had said “I’m ignoring team orders, tell Mark let’s race”, I’d be okay with that (well, I think it’d be a bit childish, but it’s more honorable). It’s the fact that he basically suckerpunched Mark when Mark was following orders (and after Mark had played the support role so many times) that bothers me.

        1. @utbowler0407 – Not passing him doesn’t mean he followed team orders- he closed up to Vettel and got alongside at one point. In his own words “There was a lot of traffic coming to me, but I was still trying to do my best to pass the guy in front.”

          Remember that Webber came out of the pits immediately in front of Vettel and had to defend. By that point, he should have realised Vettel was either too close, or wasn’t following orders. However I believe Vettel shouldn’t have come up with an “apology” afterwards.

          1. @david-a true, Webber didn’t exactly follow the team’s instructions. But he didn’t pass Vettel. Vettel’s breach of team orders was more egregious, and changed the result of the race; the two situations aren’t very comparable for that reason.

            Also, I fail to see how that’s Mark’s fault for not realizing that. He came out right ahead of Vettel, fended him off, and kept the lead. If I were in that situation, I would assume that since I got out ahead of him and we were both told to turn the engines down, that he wouldn’t pass.

          2. @utbowler0407

            Also, I fail to see how that’s Mark’s fault for not realizing that. He came out right ahead of Vettel, fended him off, and kept the lead. If I were in that situation, I would assume that since I got out ahead of him and we were both told to turn the engines down, that he wouldn’t pass.

            I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree on that. For me, logic dictates that Vettel would keep trying to get the lead.

  74. Flip it round vettel leading and webber had overtaken in the same way, horner, marko, newey and especialy vettel would have been whinning like an old woman with gout.

    1. Flip it round, Vettel leading and Webber overtakes (or tries to), after team orders, everybody cheers at Webber.

  75. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 17:10

    Why does everyone think Mark got sucker punched? Engine modes are on the steering wheel and do not require a 10 lap build up to switch. Tje situation was not jump and run, Mark had enough time to adjust map, dif, harvesting and bias. As mentioned, he was running DRS off backmarkers and was as fast accelerating off apexes? Wake up.

    1. Yeah I thought the same thing initially. However, if Webber was indeed told that there will be no overtaking (which we need to confirm) the damage would have already done once Vettel got to within the DRS zone. All this is speculation as we dont fully know what was said to whom on the radio.

  76. Interesting reading the comments here. Back in Hockenheim 2010 everyone was up in arms over the use of team orders when they were illegal. Now that they are legal, people are up in arms that one driver has disobeyed them?

    I’m finding it hard which side of the fence to come down on here. You have to applaud Vettel for taking the initiative and his “win at all costs” mentality. It was pure racing, something we all want to see. But then, on the other hand, he went against a direct team order to overtake? If you were told by your boss to do one thing, who can honestly say they would have the nerve to do the complete opposite?

    Further to that, you have to ask what would happen if the roles had been reversed, where Webber had done the dirty on Seb? Given the history of events at the team, between the drivers and Seb’s position in the team, you could guarentee that Mark would be out of the job before Monday morning.

    Interestingly, more people seem sympathetic to Rosberg here for following team orders. He could (and to my mind, should) have stuck a move on Hamilton in the closing stages of the race, he was clearly faster and surely had more fuel on board. Perhaps he could have taken the fight to the Red Bulls and made them worry a little bit.

    1. Urm, you do know right that Mark’s engine was turned down? So it wasn’t a mano-a-mano battle. Kind of an act of coward by Vettel. And then later on he doesn’t even have to courage to own up, choosing to feign ignorance instead.

      Rosberg meanwhile has only himself to blame. He passed Hamilton a couple of times but never managed to make the move stick. So, he was in fact given the opportunity, but didn’t make full use of it. At this point, seeing so close action, Ross Brawn decides to step in to ensure no untoward incident takes place.

      1. I dont buy your reasoning there. As Rosberg said, if the Red Bulls had hypothetically ran into trouble, he needed to be there ready to pounce.

    2. Now that they are legal, people are up in arms that one driver has disobeyed them?

      Just one particular driver, yes.

      you have to ask what would happen if the roles had been reversed, where Webber had done the dirty on Seb?

      Done the dirty? Have any of the commenters here bothered to watch the race yet? I know it was on at an awkward hour, but still ..

      Contrary to what some people seem to think from reading news reports, Webber and Vettel were going at it hammer and tongs for a long time. Vettel did not in fact sneak past an unsuspecting Webber who was unprepared for such a dastardly move.

      1. Seemed clear to me. Vettel hadn’t turned down his engine and maintained possition – Multi 21. I did watch the race, I know what I saw, thank you.

        1. @jamesf1
          Do you really believe that Webber was running on decreased power once Vettel caught him? It certainly didn’t come as a surprise. Nor does it take a long time to press a few buttons.
          If Webber was running on anything but full steam then it would be his own fault anyway. That simply cannot be Vettel’s problem.

          1. Maybe he turned it up (maybe) once Vettel caught him, but the damage was already done. Once you get within the DRS zone, you have the upper hand over the car in front.

  77. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 17:14

    Mark did not have a faster car “most” of the rave, he almost pushed Vettel into Hamilton. Vettel was told 3 sec to which DC had a long chat o RBR figuring this as optimum distance for tyre managment. But that put Vettel in Hamilton DRS zone and so he pushed on into Webber comfort zone and later affecting pit windows. Lets watch whole race and judge on whole race…

  78. Best moment of the race in spite of personal motivations and team orders.

    I would just like to give a shout out to Martin Brundle for conducting a fantastic podium interview, there was never a moment where he even tried to be subtle about what had just taken place on track. I hope he gets the honor every race from now on.

    1. Martin did a superb job. Give the man his own talk show… and allow firearms!

  79. I think one aspect has been missed in the discussion so far. Since Seb clearly cannot be trusted to keep any internal agreements from here on in, Mark will have to assume that they will race at full pelt whenever they are together on the track. That will without doubt put a lot more strain on the machinery, finite number of engines and gearboxes etc and will affect the teams fuel calculations – these factors can easily swing the WDC in the direction of Alonso or other challenger.
    And it would serve Seb right if he lost the WDC because of mechanical failures brought on by having to battle his teammate to the flag week in and week out.

  80. There’s a place for team orders in F1. I’m not one of those who hates team orders under any circumstances. But the second race of the season? With at least a dozen laps still to go?

    Shocking decisions by both RB and Mercedes. This sort of thing makes a mockery of the sport.

  81. Lots of moral debates going on, lots of +1ing and outrage, and it all seems a bit much.

    Vettel didn’t betray Webber – he has no more of an obligation to Webber than he does to any other driver. He disobeyed his team and that’s it. Silverstone 2011 was it when Mark did exactly the same thing? If Felipe passed Fernando like this we’d all be on our feet cheering.

    People are using this incident to justify their existing prejudices. If Rosberg had the guts to pass Hamilton there wouldn’t be nearly the same amount of vitriol directed against him because he was clearly quicker. Vettel finished far enough ahead of Webber to justify their respective positions.

    Red Bull’s interests are not the same as the audience’s, but an outrageous story about Vettel is too good for some people to resist, and they forget this. It’s about racing, not agreed-upon scripts which the drivers have to stick to.

  82. From the official press conference:

    Q: Seb, Mark’s mentioned he thought about a lot of things for the last 15 laps, can you talk a bit about what you were thinking in those last 15 laps and when did you realise that you’d made the mistake?

    SV: As I said, I didn’t do it deliberately so I didn’t realise I had made a mistake, only when I came back but by not everybody’s but the team’s reaction, I realised. I had a very short word with Mark and then it hit me quite hard and I realised that – language – I ****** up .


    I think Vettel is just plain lying there. No way he didn’t know he committed a near carnal sin by overtaking Webber under such circumstances in the race. He apologizes (fakely of course) and then concocts this lie that feigns ignorance.

    Today is the day that Seb Vettel has earned his place in my Hall of Shame. I’ve never liked him beofre, but today my feelings are duly justified.

    1. Mark’s mentioned he thought about a lot of things for the last 15 laps

      Was “Isn’t it really REALLY stupid to have team orders against overtaking with 15 laps to go in the second race of the season” one of those things?

      1. Isn’t it really REALLY stupid to have team orders against overtaking with 15 laps to go in the second race of the season”

        Y E S

    2. Couldn’t agree more. Put that dorky excuse (together with your friggin finger) where the shine doesn’t shine SV…

  83. One thing that works in favor of Vettel not realizing the “agreement” was in place was how hard Webber defended the actual pass – pushing Vettel close into the pit wall. If that was Vettel/Alonso (whichever had made the pass), folks would be talking about cajones, not apologies.

    1. Webber pushing Vettel? When did you check your eyesight last time? That was just plain stupid move against team orders. Nothing else. You should watch more racing man…

      1. @breza – There’s little wrong with what @uan said. If you saw the race, you’ll see that Webber defended his position for a while. Only when Vettel went around the outside of turn 4 did Webber back off, as Davidson said. And it’s far more stupid to apply team orders as early as the second race, to favour you inferior driver.

  84. I thought Mercedes was much worse – Hamilton clearly was in fuel saving for the last 15 laps practically. If it was in the last few laps, I think it’s one thing, but it was way way out. The same really with the Red Bulls. They made that call with quite a bit of racing to go.

    Regarding Red Bull, if the agreement was such a big deal, and as they saw Vettel determined to make the pass, they should have just told him that the agreement was in force and not pass. RB is as much to fault as Vettel is, if not more so. They seem to a bit passive-aggressive about it.

  85. i enjoyed vettel’s overtake but he should have relayed to mark on the radio (via the pitwall) a lot earlier that he was going to attack.

    1. @sato113
      No he shouldn’t. It simply cannot come as a surprise that Vettel would do anything to win that race. Just like any other race. He isn’t the kind of driver who just hangs around and tries to pick up solid points. When he can, he takes them by force.
      That is the behaviour that you would expect from a multiple world champion. Especially the most successful one on the whole grid!

      1. @mads its not fair on mark though is it if he believes vettel is simply keeping the gap. vettel was charging towards webber to close down the gap before they battled, perhaps mark thought that he’s just getting closer with no intention of overtaking (as that’s what the team told him).

        what im saying is that it would have been fairer if mark knew earlier of vettels intentions. yes he could have assumed vettel would attack but the team told him he wouldn’t.

        1. @sato113
          Again, I can see why Webber would feel confused and robbed, but he started defending against Vettel’s attacks a long time before Vettel actually passed him. He was well aware that Vettel had the intention of overtaking well before it actually happened.
          It’s not like Vettel just snook up on him and out of nowhere tried to overtake.

  86. Complying with team orders isn’t only a declaration of submission to someone else’s will, it isn’t the refusal of what you are there to do, it is also an act of intelligence and of knowing the priorities. Vettel should have returned the favour to Webber.

    1. @fixy

      Vettel should have returned the favour to Webber.

      That was exactly what he did. Just look at Silverstone 2011.

      1. @mads Excuse me? Webber stayed behind when he was asked to, Vettel finished ahead of him by four tenths of a second. Webber showed himself in Vettel’s mirrors to make it clear he was faster, but backed off when he had an overtaking opportunity.

        1. @fixy
          So you don’t believe what Webber said him self afterwards?
          Look it up. He said that he was fighting to the end and did not listen to the team order.

          1. @mads I saw that. I remember it. Webber might have meant what he said, but definitely when it was a matter of doing things he did not have the courage. He backed off on several overtaking opportunities. In the end that may be seen as submission or as compliance with the team’s orders, but in the end Webber stayed behind and the team had the result they wanted, so that’s why no fuss was made.

          2. @fixy
            He backed off from a few very risky moves. But he tried as hard as he could. You could see that. His intent was to overtake. Quite obviously.
            But unlike Webber, Vettel did have the abilities to make a move stick. The outcome was very different, but the degree of disrespect for the team is exactly the same.

  87. This time no team intervention, just a calculated and superselfish move by the worst triple WC in history. What’s the difference? Nice guys finish last – or in this case – second. THis reminds me too much on Didier-Gilles tussle in ’82. That’s not right or wrong, it’s just sad. Vettel won the race, but he lost few thousand fans. Maybe they should ban radio-connection, so there would be less SILLY moments. Also, shame on you Ross… F1 is getting way too political, and that’s always a bad thing. No real fight? OK, I’ll wait for MotoGP to start. FUF1!

    1. @breza

      THis reminds me too much on Didier-Gilles tussle in ’82. That’s not right or wrong, it’s just sad.

      More like Webber-Vettel in ’11.

    2. You just contradicted your first statement with your second one about Ross. Good work! :-)

  88. Screw u vettel

  89. totocaster (@)
    24th March 2013, 18:11

    To be honest I like the moment he disobeyed team order and went for win, he’s a race and he’s supposed to do so, BUT (this is huge one) the fact that Webber was told not to race him and talking those fake (in my opinion) apologies, make me disrespect him hugely even if he beats everyone in Championship titles.

    Racers have to will with all costs, but not by cheating. By cheating I mean knowing the fact that Mark was cruising, not racing.

    1. @totocaster

      the fact that Webber was told not to race him

      That didn’t stop him from fighting at full steam when Vettel started attacking him. So it made absolutely no difference to whether or not Vettel could overtake.

      1. totocaster (@)
        26th March 2013, 14:21

        @Mads Yes, but Webber had 4.5 second extra gap before everything happened. In other words Vettel had an advantage not to push hard to minimise gap and first and then attack. (Which with those tyres makes big difference). In such racing situation he could spend 4 or 5 laps closing that gap and that’s a big stress on tyres. I could happen that he won’t be able to overtake him after that.

        I agree that Mark started racing him after he saw car in mirrors. _After_ is a keyword here.

        1. @totocaster
          That is a fair point.
          I will maintain though, that, that is a problem between the team and Webber. Vettel did not issue the team order, nor instruct Webber to cruise it home.
          But its true that had Webber not been instructed to slow down he could have maintained his position. But it was the team who made that decision. Not Vettel.

          1. totocaster (@)
            26th March 2013, 14:46

            @Mads I’m not blaming Vettel for winning the race. It’s what he had to do as a true racer. I’m just saying that if he’d say “I just wanted to win that hard!” would be much better thing to do than those faux-false-apoligies. I don’t like people lying. Especially 3 times world champs.

  90. I’m really sorry but most of you are missing the point by a wide margin here. To all those defending Vettel – he didn’t deserve the win. You may ask WHY?

    Well, if you take away your rose tinted glasses comparing him to Senna or any other great and say he is a ‘true racer’, you’d realise that he only got close enough to Webber because Webber thought the agreement held up and he was cruising to save the engine, gearbox and tyres, as the team instructed him to. He did nothing wrong in this sense, it was Vettel who ignored the team and the agreement and increased his pace, at the risk of spoiling the race for himself and the team.

    This, to me, is despicable. If Webber followed suit and ignored the team’s order, Vettel probably wouldn’t have caught up with him anyway, as he had shown enough pace through the race. Those of you defending Vettel ought to see this and stop the naiveness. That wasn’t a ‘fair fight’, or that the better driver won, that was just plain robbery. Calling him a true racer just because he stole the win from his teammate who had more than enough pace to have him covered is borderline stupidity.

    1. I would like to offer a scenario to all those defending Vettel (Helmut Marko fans, I suppose?)

      Lets imagine that your native country and North Korea had an agreement or a pact to maintain peace and stability between your two countries. Now, one day, North Korea realises that your country has something it wants and decides to throw a nuclear bomb into your country.

      AH, i see, given your behaviours, you would probably applaud North Korea for being a true fighter!

      Hypocrisy, much?

      1. Oh my word.
        How on earth is killing people, and racing drivers overtaking each other in any way comparable? Its probably the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard.
        Anyway, going by your example.
        We (the fans) want to see racing. If we didn’t, then there would be no F1. Its our money that pays for that whole circus. On the contrary we do NOT want people to kill each other. And that is why I want Vettel to overtake Webber, but don’t want North Korea to nuke Seoul.

      2. I think you are going a bit too far when comparing Vettel to North Korea.

        Call him a liar or a cheater – fine by me (after today he is a liar and cheater in my opinion). But adding politics to it… Sorry, i must oppose.

      3. lol ….. that is a bit extreme don’t you think?

      4. Yes that’s correct ridiculous is the word. And that’s why I mentioned hypocrisy. They are essentially the same situation just in different contexts. Which shows how much double standards are there in this world. It just shows all of you don’t mind hypocrisy or betrayals as long as it suits your agenda or viewing pleasure. Which is selfish in itself but u have demonstrated my point. It’s like saying stealing for the rich is ok but stealing from the poor is not. It’s morals double standards. In the end as u said, u didn’t mind Vettel breaking an agreement because u gained something from it, which was your viewing pleasure. Double crossing somebody is wrong, no matter what. I made my point. now it’s up to u to reflect.

  91. Vettel went against Team Orders, Webber is a gentleman and an honest human being. Something Vettel could greatly learn from, he has lost what little respect he had today.
    Reminds me of another German who was only as good as the car he was driving. Is anyone surprised because I certainly am not!!

  92. With such ridiculous team orders, there will be no competitive racing even if Bernie spreads oil on the track.

    1. hahaha… or even ice..

  93. I can’t believe that so many people are suddenly supporting team orders.
    I pay my money to see racing. Not world champions holding position because their teams don’t think they can manage some wheel to wheel racing. Despite the fact that both of their drivers have done so for over 20 years!
    They know how to get around another car. **** happens from time to time, but at least its real and it won’t create inter team friction like this.
    F1 drivers are there to win. Anything else is unnatural, and I think the teams who use team orders like this are a bunch of babies. They should accept it when their drivers does not obey their every call. They are there to win, just as much as the teams are.
    I applaud drivers for saying no to finishing 2nd and take their result into their own hands. If all F1 drivers were racing sensibly then I would stop watching. It’s their rebellious behaviour that makes them racing drivers.
    And isn’t it racing drivers, racing that we to see?
    I think the teams should accept that and move on. If they hire a F1 world champion to race their cars, then they are never going to get a lap dog. It has been like that for decades.
    Still. I get why F1 teams would support team orders, but I literally have no idea why some fans seem to do the same.

  94. Anyone remembers when the fallout in McLaren begun in 2007?
    That’s right, exactly after Hamilton renegaded on a prior gentleman agreement.

    Shouldn’t be surprised if these two end up pushing each other off the road during the year at the benefit of Alonso or Kimi.

  95. Vettel reduced himself to an amount of s….

    He is saying he regrets to have stolen the victory promised to Mark but in the very deep part of his soul, he thinks nothing of what he said about his regrets

    He is probably the worst racer now on the track… Just having the good car by Newey but no team spirit no contender spirit

    I just cannot say anything else than I hate him

    1. I wouldn’t say I hate him but I do think his behavior today was unnecessary and unworthy for a triple formula one world champion. I still think he has deserved every title and record he has achieved although I don’t like him a single bit. It’s the dual personality really that bugs me the most. When he’s not wearing his helmet he can be a charismatic person but once in the cockpit that changes to a greedy and arrogant driver.

      I think he is most definitely wining the driver of the weekend award.

      1. “Unworthy”? So the nicer you are, the more worthy you are of becomming a world champion? .. Obviously being a champion is about speed and skill, and having the equipment to compeet. It’s not about being nice, or morally correct. What happened today has nothing to do with how many championships Vettel have won.

        1. @me4me

          Itt all depends on what you think makes a good champion. It’s one thing to win a title it’s a whole different thing to be a champion. A champion should be a role model and set a standard for others to admire. Vettel does none of this.

          1. @nick-uk I see your point and I agree to some extend. But then the question arrives, who of the late greats is a better champion then Vettel then? Alonso did some pretty silly things back in 2007. Hamilton was all over the place in 2011. Schumacher did ever crazier things then the pair of them combined. I see this a a single incident. We shouldn’t be to quick to blame Vettel, and judge his career by this. He is still and foremost a great racing driver.

    2. stolen the victory promised to Mark

      Do you people even hear yourselves?

      This nonsense, like the crazed flash mob which formed around the “Vettel passed under yellow flags in Brazil!!” silliness, really leaves me wondering about the sort of people who follow Formula One.

      This is racing. You can’t “promise” a victory to anyone. And one driver passing another driver (who tried hard to stop the first one from passing) does not constitute theft either legally or morally.

      1. True enough, but maybe you are not understanding the facts! Webber decided upon a tyre strategy based on the assurance that Vettel would not over take him, so Webber slowed his pace in line with the team and opted for the tyre he preferred, albeit slower; then Vettel ignored the request.

        1. Exactly.
          Webber’s pace was governed by a mutual agreement by him and the team that ensured he got to the end of the race on those tyres; a safe position.

          This could only have occurred with the guarantee that Vettel wouldn’t attempt to overtake.
          If no such agreement were in place, Webber would have maintained an optimum car set-up and brought the fight proper to Vettel… At the risk of not being able to finish on those tyres.

          People saying Webber was slower, what was the problem? Well, Webber was only as slow as he was because of the agreement. He proved to us all that he had the pace to match Vettel earlier in the race, which is probably why the agreement held (until Vettel got greedy).

  96. I can’t believe that so many people are suddenly supporting team orders.
    I pay my money to see racing. Not world champions holding position because their teams don’t think they can manage some wheel to wheel racing. Despite the fact that both of their drivers have done so for over 20 years!
    They know how to get around another car. **** happens from time to time, but at least its real and it won’t create inter team friction like this.
    F1 drivers are there to win. Anything else is unnatural, and I think the teams who use team orders like this are a bunch of babies. They should accept it when their drivers does not obey their every call. They are there to win, just as much as the teams are.
    I applaud drivers for saying no to finishing 2nd and take their result into their own hands. If all F1 drivers were racing sensibly then I would stop watching. It’s their rebellious behaviour that makes them racing drivers.
    And isn’t it racing drivers, racing that we to see?
    I think the teams should accept that and move on. If they hire a F1 world champion to race their cars, then they are never going to get a lap dog. It has been like that for decades.
    Still. I get why F1 teams would support team orders, but I literally have no idea why some fans seem to do the same.

    1. I can’t believe that so many people are suddenly supporting team orders.

      Of course, they don’t really support team orders. They hate Vettel. Many of them explicitly say so. If any other driver ignores team orders and passes his teammate in some future race then that driver will get overwhelming support here.

    2. I can’t believe that so many people are suddenly supporting team orders.

      Many are probably doing that because they simply dislike Vettel.

  97. I am a Canadian and love F1 but I think this was the worst race I have ever seen. I usually root for Hamilton or Button. With that out of the way I cant stand these stupid team orders. Rosberg should have gone around Lewis and Vettel did the right thing.Get rid of the constructors champion , we all know what team had the best car of the day. Let these guys race that’s what they are supposed to do.Racers of generations past would be disgusted were are politically correct, greedy corporations have taken the sport.If you want fans put on a real race not a staged one.

    1. I completely understand your viewpoint, but there is another aspect to this that seems to have been missed from all the comments here about team orders etc. And this is that engines, gearboxes etc must be used in multiple races as their numbers are limited in the season. Because of this, it it entirely sensible for a team manager to say “That’s it guys, no more racing each other. Conserve the cars for the next race.” In the old days when engines etc were unlimited, the richer teams could afford to bring a virtually new car to each race. Now, an engine has to last four races (I think).
      So in the interests of the season as a whole, teams must limit the stress put on their finite resources at each race. Seb ignored that today and very nearly cost his team the one-two they deserved.
      In this instance, he put himself before the team. Not something that will endear him to anyone.

  98. Sergey Petrov
    24th March 2013, 19:52

    The only thing Seb did wrong today was appologise out of place. Everyone in F1 is all PC, cute and fluffy, for the spectators (god forbid we hear what they actually have to say). Everyone must drive in order, proceed as discussed in briefing, buckle up and indicate when overtaking. Boy oh boy the wrath of the fans shall be upon you should you overtake after half race distance as we are used to catching a nap by then. In the PC world An apology was expected from Vettel – he gave one.

    Tremendous job by Martin Brundle on putting it to all drivers in another non-PC fashion.

    1. Nothing wrong with F1 being all cute and fluffy, it is one of few sports remaining where players and supporters alike are fair, honest and polite; unlike football etc.

  99. Multi-21, hmmm let me see what can be made out of it. 2 stands for Webber and 1 for Vettel. Which means Mark was supposed to win. So was it pre-decided that Webber was the one the team wanted to win?? I suppose this Multi-21 came into effect around lap 43 (or just before that ugly overtaking by Seb)..

    1. They were reporting that Mult-21 is an engine mapping mode which Webber engaged and Vettel was supposed to engage but did not. So not only did he go against team orders, he passed a car using 80% of his cars power – he must be proud.

  100. F1 drivers are all the same and dont have any respect for others, just go down to your local kart track and see how they behave as children with there parents throwing thousands of pounds at them from the age of five then you can understand where these little babies bad attitudes come from, i went to my local track last year and one little brat had four different karts and fifteen engines for one race weekend.

  101. I’m sorry…am I the only one here who thinks drivers should race to the limit, and not just tiptoe around following team orders?

    Such a thing as happened today would have been unheard of in the pioneering years of F1, so why should it be the case all of a sudden, now?

    If you can do something (within the rules), do it!

  102. Seems to me, Seb can’t overtake: unless there’s team orders for Webber to
    a) let him through, or
    b) for Webber to turn his engine down
    Can’t see Helmut Marko coming down hard on Vettel though… or can I?

  103. This is about Vettel not being a gentleman.
    Rosberg showed he was a gentleman today.
    Vettel didn’t keep his word and showed true unsportsmanlike behavior.
    I’m just disappointed in him.

    1. @mike-the-bike-schumacher

      Rosberg showed he was a gentleman today.

      and Hamilton, too (for properly acknowledging Rosber’s meritorious effort).

  104. Controversial opinion but I really do think that both Red Bull drivers are to ‘blame’ today. Whether or not you ‘believe’ in team orders is irrelevant, you’re an employee therefore you do as you’re told but I think that while Webber is being portrayed as the victim he was racing Vettel just as much. He could have removed all the risk factor by letting an impatient Vettel pass him but he chose to fight and therefore put the team at risk as much as Vettel did.

    1. @andrewtanner
      I see where you are coming from… But sit in Mark’s position for a second.

      You’ve been guaranteed that Vettel wouldn’t overtake you. Suddenly, you’ve got him racing right by you, you may think that you’re just going too slowly (being too conservative, if you will), not that Vettel is overtaking.
      You respond by picking up the pace slightly, thinking that you’re now just matching the also coasting Vettel.
      Vettel then thinks you’re fighting for position proper, and now it’s too late… The battle has already escalated too far.

      Webber eventually let him through when the intentions of both parties were clear.

  105. Hands up everyone who thinks that, if Hamlton had been behind Rosberg, he’d have been ordered to hold position.

    Now hold your hand if you think that, even if such an order had been given, Hamilton would have obeyed it.

    No? Well, try putting Alonso and Massa into those scenarios. It’s even harder to imagine.

  106. Daniel (@collettdumbletonhall)
    24th March 2013, 20:47

    I wish people would stop calling Vettel a racer as a way of excusing his actions. It’s just a way of justifying his unacceptable, callous and narcissistic behaviour that would be unacceptable in the real world. Before anyone says, ‘He’s a racing driver, he’s supposed to win races’, I know that but the point is that he unacceptably took advantage of a situation that was simply not fair on Webber, disobeying the people that pay his wage, got him where he is today on a monumental scale.
    The more I see of Vettel the more I think he is your typical sociopath/psychopath.

    1. I wish people would stop calling Vettel a racer as a way of excusing his actions.

      I wish people would stop agreeing with team orders in the second race of the season, hiding behind the “it’s part of F1” excuse, when with anyone else, they’d be against team orders being applied this early in the season (or later).

      1. The Next Pope
        25th March 2013, 20:00

        But this time, the team order was for the team? To not risk WCC points surely?
        To say Vettel did it for the Championship, a mere 7 points lol, well we’ll see. :D
        Honestly tho, if he could man up and admit he wanted to win, Seb would be so badass right now.

  107. i hate that man even more…but hey:

  108. I don’t understand. People is mad at Vettel disobeying a team order and at Rosberg obeying a team order. Double standard?

    1. If they didn’t have double standards, they’d have no standards at all.

    2. Rosberg showed himself to be a team player and respectful to his team mate; Vettel did not show the same with Webber or the team, though naturally Red Bull will forgive him as he can’t do anything wrong!

      The real losers today are the fans for witnessing team orders at all and preventing a race; this is the second race of the year for crying out loud, not the 19th!

    3. people are angry with Mercedes for what they did to Rosberg and people are angry with Vettel with what he did to Webber. Rosberg should have clearly finished 3rd but thats the teams fault and Vettel disobeyed what his team wanted him to do. Rosberg is a team player,Vettel is not.

    4. Daniel (@collettdumbletonhall)
      25th March 2013, 1:59

      Different people think different things. I haven’t read any responses showing one person to have both opinions you state.

  109. After thinking a bit, I realized that what bothers me most as well as what really bothers most people is Vettel’s violation of the sense of fairplay. Webber had turned his engine down in compliance with team orders and Vettel willfully disobeyed the orders. Thus Webber was left ‘holding the bag’.
    I can’t take anything away from Vettel because he IS good. However, I think he sucks as a human being and team player.
    Liek it or not, Team orders are a part of F1, always have been; always will be. The drivers know it when they sogn up to race.
    Imagine for a moment had the roles been reversed: Vettel would’ve been crying and pitching a fit for the rest of the season. That’s just the type of person he is. He has 3 DC’s and thinks he’s entitled to whatever he wants.(Listen to him whine on the track when backmarkers don’t stop to let him pass) Thus I hope he follows Senna into Glory.

    1. I do not remember Vettel whining at occasions like Hamilton overtaking him because backmarker slowed him down at COTA in 2012.

    2. @fokkinmoron
      I dont fault SV for being “unfair”. This is F1, there is no “fair”; only the rules and the podium.
      Disobeying team orders was probably his greatest sin, but I really dont care about that.

      I expect F1 to be a pinacle. All these artificial impediments are nothing but ridiculous. Im sure SV will have to “stand tall before the man” and take his lashings from the team, but in the end, he has the top step, and that cannot be taken away.

  110. Taking an unfair advantage of his team mate following orders is as good as cheating to me. I lost any remaining respect for that kid today.

  111. I’m a Vettel fan, but today i trully think that is should stick with the orders, for a bunch of reason but the most important, respect for Webber.
    Yes team orders suck, because the victory is the essence of it, and they choose who to win, but, Vettel should not attack Webber

    1. I love the Pope
      25th March 2013, 2:13

      How come when Mark disobeys orders (Brazil 2012, silverstone2011) no one cares? I hope Mark quits. Buemi would be a better teammate.

  112. If I am not wrong the Reb Bull team logistics people are coordinating and booking the tickets for Vettel, Webber, Horner & Marko to the Alphine Mountains to meet the Big Bull (DM).

    Well as a racing fan I hate the team orders be it coulthard moving for Hakkinen, Barrichello Moving for Schumi or Massa for Alonso. As a racing fan I also hate the fact racers like Massa are reduced to puppet characters through team orders losing their self respect.

    Yesterday was the story of 2 Managers (Brawn and Horner) – The consecutive video shot where both of them are holding their hand on their foreheads summed it all.

    1) Ross Brawn : Seasoned Principal who knows his Stud and places all his bet on that person ( boy he never lost one !! ) . He was crystal clear yesterday where his bets are. He is so masterful in that part of management, it was the old Ross brawn flowering back to his hey days. In fact Hamilton was lill surprised with that early support. It was that legacy which he left behind at Ferrari that even today Ferrari employs successfully. Alonso just like Schumi would have loved working with the Old Ross – just his kind of style. End of the day Ross was a better Manager than Horner.

    2) Horner : The Nice man who finds it difficult to control his raging bulls. I mean as he said this is a good problem to have. All the other team principals on the Grid are looking forward to this situation at least once in life. Oh Boy. here is a 25 year old triple world champion with all sorts of records on his name, Hungry for his forth title already. Speak about Motivation he does not need any more of it. Then there is this 36 year old Veteran who is a NO Nonsense guy and who on his day can beat the triple world champ easily. It is a potentially dynamite team. Good thing. Horner cannot be in the middle ground. He has to either take the stand of Ross Brawn and say , I know who my man is and I will put my weight behind him OR I will not give any team orders and they will race till the last race ( which is what he is doing most of the time last 4 years). End of the day Horner provided the best to his fans till date.

    I also hate the new Podium interview format where the drivers are in their full adrenalin rush and they just speak out. Last year it was about some of the words Kimi and Vettel used in the heat of the moment. I suggest these guys should be given a chance to cool down and sit and relax to give a proper race perspective. Again half the time with noise and other issues lot of the things are not even audible in the podium interview.

    @KeithCollantine Did the FIA release the full radio exchange between Vettel and Horner before the its silly remark. My question to Webber is if he was going with the teams instruction to tone down his engine why did he race for almost a full lap with vettel ? If that was the case he was indeed planning to race vettel he should have toned hi engine back and given us fans a good day to remember.

    Overall I feel bad for the Fans and for the Malaysian GP attendees. They were robbed of a great post race podium ceremony. It looked like a mourning of some sort. Adrian left without taking the picture with the drivers. The last time I felt similar podium was probably in 2005 US GP.

    Lets just say ban all team orders and let everybody race fair and square.

    1. Overall I feel bad for the Fans and for the Malaysian GP attendees. They were robbed of a great post race podium ceremony. It looked like a mourning of some sort.

      See, you say that but most people I’ve seen couldn’t tear themselves away from that podium. it was like watching a plane crash in slow motion!

    2. Most of all fans want a fair fight. Vettel was asking for team orders halfway through the race, but when it wasn’t in his favor its all out the window. Let everyone race all the time if they can’t be expected to listen to the team.

      1. @bendana I agree it is the same pleasure as watching car wrecks or plane crashes. I mean there would have been less comments all across the world F1 forums if someone had one had won this race masterfully. As much as DM hate to be in the situation, imagine the limelight Red Bull brand is getting. as a brand they did not get a negative image but a lot of attention. Serves their purpose well.

        @n0b0dy100 I am not saying what Vettel did is right or wrong. I don’t know the nuances well. ofCourse Adrian and Horner being so unhappy with Vettel that they blasted him so openly means that something has gone wrong terribly. At the end of the day there are 2 Drivers who felt they deserved more points and 2 who felt that maybe the other guy deserved the points.

        Also at the end of the day there are 2 Angry Drivers who are contemplating the future with their teams , 1 driver who is surprised by the support early on and 1 Guilty driver. It does not help anybody. Ferrari has mastered this situation so well, that if either of the teams situation happened at Ferrari nobody would be talking about it now !!!!!

        One thing is sure, after 3 Consecutive WDCs the competitive spirit is still alive, Kicking and burning in Vettel. He must be a mouth watering candidate for Ferrari & Luca. The Tifosis will love him like Alonso and Schumi.

    3. @tmax

      I also hate the new Podium interview format where the drivers are in their full adrenalin rush and they just speak out. Last year it was about some of the words Kimi and Vettel used in the heat of the moment. I suggest these guys should be given a chance to cool down and sit and relax to give a proper race perspective

      Well I actualluy love the new podium interview format, because that is when we actually hear the truth from the drivers. Letting drivers “cool down” doesn’t mean they will change their mind, it is more likely they will be told by team bosses what to say and what NOT to say.

      But I agree with you on the following:

      My question to Webber is if he was going with the teams instruction to tone down his engine why did he race for almost a full lap with vettel ?

      Which suggests to me that although Webber might have been given the “slow down” order, I doubt he followed it through. It is likely that once he saw Vettel trying to pass, he turned the power back on. However, damage was already done because this allowed Vettel to catch up within the DRS zone.

  113. Right, my thoughts and nout more:

    I feel Seb is in the wrong in this situation, for the simple reason that if you want to benefit from Team orders, then at some point you’ve got to accept that they may go against you. What Vettel did today was nothing short of what – in any other job – would be a disciplinary matter.

    What also naffed me off was the downright sly and underhanded way he pulled this. Frankly, someone who ‘didn’t know’ he’d been given a team order wouldn’t have looked so bloody sheepish across the board. He would also have known what that meant for Webber. He knew that if he kept the wick turned up, he would have a distinct advantage over his teammate. It isn’t cheating – technically – but it is downright unpleasant. People can make comparison to drivers past all they want, but drivers of the past wouldn’t have been able to play this hand.

    Were it me as team principle, I’d be tempted to pull a sly one of my own:

    “What’s that Seb, you’ve got pole position again? well, unfortunately we’ve decided we need to change your engine. You’re starting from tenth. Have you learnt to listen to your radio yet?”

    Of course, this is all just my opinion, it won’t be shared by everyone. I will point out that I don’t necessarily disagree with disobeying team orders in some situations – but given that Seb has been perfectly happy to benefit from team orders in the past, it does irritate me somewhat.

    1. If RBR are trully unhappy with Vettel’s actions, they have numorus ways how they could fix that. But frankly I doubt that is the case.

  114. Translate that to:
    “Sucker, you actually listen to team orders? Got you, chump.”

  115. This issue seems to have polarised the f1fanatic supporters. Reading through the comments, I see the following points being raised:

    * Some people don’t like VET’s domination in F1
    * Some people don’t like team orders, and subsequently don’t agree with drivers upholding them
    * Some people don’t like team orders, but since they are in place, believe that drivers should adhere to them
    * Some people think that VET is lying about his apology
    * Some people applaud VET for his apology

    If you look at this situation in a purely instinctive way, no one will ever question the motives of a race horse, whether it wins, loses or draws. The horse is considered to be working on a very limited awareness to its surroundings, and in fact some race with “blinkers” on to ensure they only look straight at the target to ensure they don’t get distracted.

    If you look at this situation in a logical, thoughtful way, then human beings are gifted with the ability to think and have the awareness that animals are not generally credited with. Its important to note here, that humans have the ability to think, it doesn’t necessarily mean that we do.

    Given that a lap of Sepang is a bit over a minute and a half, and most of that time is spent making sure that you aren’t running up the backside of the car in front, while changing up and down the gears, and making sure you hit your apex. They also now days have to adjust many components in the car, like throttle mapping, brake bias. How much capacity do the drivers really get to think about other things? If the driver is thinking about other things, would that not detract from his performance? People like Schumacher were regarded as supermen behind the wheel because they could analyse the race as it was happening, but that is the exception rather than the norm. And that’s not to suggest that Schumacher never made any mistakes, he made many in his career.

    Ultimately I believe that if VET had given the whole situation more thought, then he may well have let WEB take the win, but I personally think that VET had the “blinkers” on at that point in time and no matter what anyone said to him on the radio would have processed in his brain. I don’t think he was aware of his surroundings, I don’t think he gave it enough thought.

    Its easy to make judgements from a comfy couch watching the race unfold, but its definitely a different situation sitting in the car in the heat of battle with a million things to do and to focus on. I’m not excusing his decision, but I can certainly see how he could have been tuned out of the whole team orders conversation because at the time he had set his sights on passing the car in front.

    1. Ultimately I believe that if VET had given the whole situation more thought, then he may well have let WEB take the win, but I personally think that VET had the “blinkers” on at that point in time and no matter what anyone said to him on the radio would have processed in his brain. I don’t think he was aware of his surroundings, I don’t think he gave it enough thought.

      Perhaps Vettel was not warned properly by the team. But I am certain Vettel was AWARE of the situation.

    2. Ultimately I believe that if VET had given the whole situation more thought, then he may well have let WEB take the win, but I personally think that VET had the “blinkers” on at that point in time and no matter what anyone said to him on the radio would have processed in his brain. I don’t think he was aware of his surroundings, I don’t think he gave it enough thought.

      I guess racing at 200mph on the 46th Lap of a very hot and tough day was not the best place to think of the WHOLE Situation. But as you said in your next paragraph it is what it is.

      Again a smarter move would have been to gift Webber the Race and then rant about it so that Webber would have nothing to complaint and Horner would owe more for Vettel’s generous action. Is it better than 7 Extra Points which going by last 3 years Vettel has the chance to take more advantage of than Webber ? What say ?

  116. I suspect Vettel has benefitted handsomely over the years with respect to Red Bull’s ‘no race after the last pit stop’ protocol. So why this grimy effort not to reciprocate?

    1. I suspect Vettel has benefitted handsomely over the years with respect to Red Bull’s ‘no race after the last pit stop’ protocol. So why this grimy effort not to reciprocate?

      TBH, most often than not, Webber simply could not catch up to Vettel.

  117. I am so sorry for Vettel… Poor racing driver made a mistake. “Well i made a mistake and pass my team mate. Red Bull slowed down Mark and i was faster… so i pass him… I didn’t mean to do that… Sorry Mark…”

    Red Bull is starting to suck…

  118. Don’t be silly is what Seb’s race engineer was saying when he got up very close to Webber. Seb knew what he was doing. Will Webber trust him again? I doubt it. Mark said he was reassured twice about no racing between them. I have lost a lot of respect for Vettel today.

    1. I love the Pope
      25th March 2013, 2:15

      Why? Mark has done this in the past. Hate him too?

  119. I think what Vettel did was completely wrong. Whilst I largely disagree with the idea behind team orders from a fans point of view, I want to see the best car and driver win after all, I completely understand why teams choose to use them, and it’s impossible to ban them in what is actually more of a team sport than an individual sport.

    Vettel should have understood why the team wanted him to stay behind Webber and not fight his team mate and complied. At the end of the day it is his team that employs him and he should have shown some of the same professionalism and humilty that Rosberg showed and stuck behind Webber rather than risk both their races, the respect of his team and show everyone how ruthless and single minded he actually is.

    I simply don’t buy his story about not hearing or understanding the instruction, he obviously was completely focused on winning at all costs. He’d have lost less of my respect as a driver if he’d came out and explained that he thought he was faster than Webber, seen an opportunity for points which could be important for the championship and ruthlessly took it, rather than the excuses and, I think, fake apologies that he did come out with.

    1. I totally agree with your last paragraph. For one, he did not have the balls to own up and say that he did in fact defy team orders. Then on the podium interview he acts as if nothing was going to happen (thankfully Webber spoke his mind). Then he issues a largely fake apology and feigns ignorance that team orders were issues. Actually, in the post race press conference, he claims he knew about the team orders but didn’t understand what it meant.

      Today, not only is Vettel a thieving cheater, but a cunning liar. His good-boy persona may save him from further scrutiny, but this guy is worse than Alonso or Hamilton at their absolute worst.

  120. All these things Begs One question to be answered . WHY does team principals think that if team mates race each other they will inevitably end up crashing ? On the other hand if they are racing against the other 20 drivers the principals think it is perfectly safe.

    1. @tmax If they take themselves out against a different team’s car, they only lose the one car. But if the two teammates take each other out, that’s double the pain and double the loss.

      Remember, as a constructor, one teammate passing another gains the team a massive ZERO points. They have nothing to gain from it, but a whole lot to lose.

      1. I agree to that But the reaction seems to be much more than just the points it seems they predict a 90% possibility of a crash. I mean common that can happen while passing any other car too. The risk is ALMOST equal when the 2 drivers are making an overtaking move on 2 different sections of the track on 2 different drivers. I mean this is racing we are not taking about procession. What is the fun in racing if 2 people do not try to prove that they are better than the other with equal equipment.

  121. whoever justifies what vettel did is profusely ignorant. The characteristics of the pirelli tyres further exacerbates the need for the teams to manage their drivers so as to not jeopardize the result in the latter stages of a race. Most of the time Vettel has been the beneficiary of this but this time it should have been Webbers time to shine. I can’t say ive lost any respect for Vettel as I didnt have any to begin with…with alonso out of the race he was in with a good haul of points anyway. Hopefully webber gets a chance to steal some points from him during the season and Vettel loses the championship by a point :)

    1. I Love the Pope
      25th March 2013, 2:58

      Mark did it, and admitted that he defied team orders not to, at Silverstone in 2011.

      The only difference is that he was not good enough to get past Seb.

      But I suppose if MARK does it – the EXACT SAME THING – its okay.

    2. The characteristics of the pirelli tyres further exacerbates the need for the teams to manage their drivers so as to not jeopardize the result in the latter stages of a race.

      Red Bull were not in jeopardy from the Mercedes after Vettel got back ahead of Hamilton.

      1. and I cant wait till vettel is in the lead and mark has a go at him :)

    3. @me262

      The characteristics of the pirelli tyres further exacerbates the need for the teams to manage their drivers so as to not jeopardize the result in the latter stages of a race

      As if the drivers aren’t capable of managing their tyres….
      They can do so at every other race in the year. The tyres aren’t going to jump off the car just because they are fighting their team mate a bit.
      It’s perfectly safe, the teams are just being babies about it.

      1. @mads well ofcourse they are their just not capable of doing things for the better of the team..drivers only be able to manage their own tyres and thats it

        1. @me262
          That is all they need to. Both webber and vettel can manage their tyres perfectly well. So it is quite frankly ridiculous that the team does not trust that they can race and get their cars to the end. Of course they can. otherwise they wouldn’t be there.

          1. ridiculous that the team does not trust that they can race and get their cars to the end

            @mads ofcourse they can but the over all risk management always falls on the team, always has in Formula 1. Teams have 2 cars to manage. Vettel chose to be bigger than the team, would be awesome to have Vettel come in for a stop and for his team to remain stationary for 10 seconds :) enough for victory to pass on to webber. maybe then he’d learn a little about respecting the people around him that make all these champuionships possible for him (but wouldnt marko be furious)

          2. @me262
            I don’t think it does.
            The drivers know how to manage risks. Its what they have done for 20 years. Both of them.
            The guys on the pitwall are stressed and afraid of the disaster, but the way I see it is this.
            It is better to have a well functioning team with two happy drivers and take the risks that goes with that, then a team lacking trust in each other or even completely demotivating one of the drivers like what happened with Massa, or like what is happening between Vettel and Webber, turning a competetive team mate relationship into a grudge match.

          3. The drivers know how to manage risks. Its what they have done for 20 years. Both of them

            @mads They have been managing their own tyres/risks for 20 years, yes and Turkey 2010 still happened. Thats why the guys on the pitwall start sweating when their cars are 1-2 and the leading driver starts moving over on the other to try and squeeze his team mate out whilst trying to overtake down pit straight..The team stick up for the team Interests ‘Nico I want to bring the 2 cars home’…some drivers obviously do the team things better than others

            Regarding the rest of your post I agree!

  122. It’s three weeks to the next race, we’re fortunate we have three weeks. I’ll catch some waves in Australia on my board and I think this will be good medicine for me. I had a lot of thoughts going through my mind in the last 15 laps of the Grand Prix so whether the medicine is enough, we’ll see.

    i would have thought webbo’s had enough swimming with sharks for now…

    1. that made me laugh

  123. For those saying “why didn’t Mark turn his engine back up to get back at Seb”…. that would be the wrong thing to do. Mark has learned to play by the rules. Him getting back at Seb would be him disobeying team orders. Seb already showed his insubordination. Mark was not going to do that because 2 wrongs do not make it right. If he turned up his engine after lap 43 and pushed more, maybe it would allow the Mercs back into the picture. That would be even worse than what we have right now.

    I have a feeling this spectacle is probably the worst out of all the ones we’ve seen between Mark and Seb. This is the first time we’ve heard of the team’s displeasure with Seb over open radio “Seb this is silly” and “You’ve got some explaining to do”. As displeased as Mark was with Seb, Red Bull is probably 100x more displeased and furious with Seb. This is a first. And it will not go down well. There will be repercussions for sure.

    1. @alzarius I too said that.

      Mark has learned to play by the rule

      Oh Yeah we saw that happening in Brazil 2012 2 races ago when Vettel was racing for the WDC. Horner said that too. It goes the same distance both ways.

  124. Everybody has mentioned Christian Horner, but few have mentioned Helmut Marko. Marko has alot of influence at Red Bull and was the man behind the rise of Sebastien Vettel. This latest dilemma will be quickly forgotten by the likes of Marko, Vettel, and possibly Horner. It won’t be forgotten so easily by the fans or Mark Webber.
    At face value I have my suspicions about Red Bull motives for ordering Webber to ‘turn his engine down’ so early. Was it to protect Mark’s car as the likes of Horner claim or was it to slow Webber down so as to aid Vettel? Horner could hardly come over the radio and suggest that ‘Mark, Sebastien is faster than you!’ Thats already been done before. Were Red Bull trying to subtly induce team orders so that Vettel could win the grands prix? Earlier in the race Vettel had complained about Webber’s lack of pace over the radio, despite the fact that Mark was lapping quicker than the German. Horner’s response to Vettel was to ‘be patient’. I am assuming that Vettel’s patience wore out as the grands prix progressed.
    As its turned out, Red Bull achieved a one two finish, Vettel won the race, team orders were implemented and Vettel takes the can for ‘disobeying’ the team’s wishes. As I said, I am suspicious of Red Bull’s motives and believe more went on behind the scenes than we saw or know about. Webber alluded to this in the interview by saying that Vettel will have ‘the usual protection’. Strange choice of words. The fact remains though that this scenario is an old one. Three years ago we had the events in Turkey that cost Red Bull dearly, then there was the front wing saga at Silverstone and Webber’s ‘number two’ comments. The bare bones are that these two drivers do not like one another, and I am sure that if Webber has the opportunity for revenge on Vettel, he will take it.
    Last year, when Sebastien was fighting Fernando Alonso for the title, Webber was asked if he would help the German if asked in his quest for a third championship. The answer was a firm no, and a ‘I have my own races to win’ comment. I seriously doubt that this stance from Webber will change anytime soon. More to the point, why should it?

  125. Vettel is no longer worthy of my admiration as a fan.

  126. A lot comes down to attitude however – if SV had been unabashedly doing it and said “I’m the world champion and I will go out and get the win”, and “team rules do not apply because I run for the title”, then the statement would have been clear – and his victory a statement. Instead, he seems ashamed of his win, knows he abused the team’s trust, doesn’t even say a word after crossing the line… and seems to be unreliable instead.

  127. This weekend Vettel became the new Schumacher… His transformation is now complete…. To win at any cost he will just randomly start to do little “mistakes”…

    I am sure that, like Ferrari in the Schumacher era, Red Bull will protect their number one driver.

    Just hope Webber in the near future does a “Vettel” to “Vettel”…

    1. Even though Webber, did a “Vettel” long before Vettel even thought about it. Hint; Silverstone 2011.

  128. Sergey Petrov
    25th March 2013, 12:46

    Can we pretty please get over Mark’s turned down engine? He set the fastest sector of anybody defending fron Vettel on lap 45. Right or wrong is a matter of opinion, but lets get yhe facts straight.

  129. Nevertheless We all have to agree that the overtake was breathtaking, Webber fought hard to defend his position but Vettel prevailed.

  130. i watched the race again and webber knew that vettel was coming for him 1 lap before, after going out from the pits. applaud vettel for what he did, all the greats were ruthless and cheats and had the win at all costs mentality, and THATS WHAT MADE THEM GREAT. what bothered me was that he gave a halfhearted, halfbaked, hypocritical apology. should have stood up for it

    1. applaud vettel for what he did, all the greats were ruthless and cheats and had the win at all costs mentality, and THATS WHAT MADE THEM GREAT.

      Ahhh, no. If that’s the mentality you embrace – lying, cheating, insubordination – then you should really be upset with your parents for raising a degenerate.

      1. @joepa
        The days of “gentelmen racing” is looong gone.

        Do we chastize a team when they do something outside the rules? Do we call them unfair?

        I feel your comments are a bit of a stretch, and the personal attack is both trollish and uncalled for. @kimberly did not equate the dirty tricks to acceptable behavior in LIFE, but rather, that F1 is a pinacle, not a happy-joy club where everyone is equal and deserves to win.

        There are the Rules, the Stewards, and the Poduim and the winner is there because HE TOOK IT from the others. The instant F1 reduces the ruthlessness nature for a kinder and gentler world is the same instant that they fail to deserve the title of Greatest Motorsport.

        Lets all be honest, the 3 guys on the podium this Sunday WERE NOT the best drivers on earth for that day.

        1. @javlinsharp

          @kimberly did not equate the dirty tricks to acceptable behavior in LIFE…

          I disagree, for at the highest level, sport is life, and so to celebrate qualities such as lying, cheating and insubordination is not to celebrate or honor greatness, but is, rather, to worship degeneracy. Winning without honor is not winning at all – it is self-degradation.

          Whether you are a lawyer, police officer, fire fighter, doctor, businessperson, athlete, or any of numerous other professions, you compete against either other people or natural forces. But there is a right way and a wrong way to compete. Avoid anger and greed. Use concentration and awareness.

          I accept, however, that your view may differ from mine. I’m not sure what @keithcollantine‘s view is.

  131. So, this is what F1 has become…
    1. Driver apologizing on the podium
    2. Teams ordering the restriction of speed
    3. Drivers keeping to a laptime even when the car has more
    4. The medium tire LASTS LONGER than the harder compound.
    5. Driver passes ostensibly limited to pedestrian affairs in the DRS zone with a huge helping of KERS.

    I mark the 2013 Malaysia GP as the first step to me falling out of love with F1. You wanted to improve the show? Now you can watch your fanbase head for the exits…

    1. Oh please. So sorry that F1 has so disappointed you. But like you said, it’s a free world so thankfully you can spend your entertainment dollars elsewhere while the rest of us enjoy the Show!

  132. New sticker on Vettel’s car… LOL


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