Alonso ‘more complete’ than Schumacher, says Massa

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In the round-up: Felipe Massa compares his Ferrari team mates past and present.


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‘Alonso the most complete’ (Sky)

“Schumacher was very, very good. He was amazing and a very complete driver as well. But I think maybe Alonso is even more perfect.”

Lotus signs Ferrari aero chief (Autosport)

“Lotus has moved to boost its technical department in the wake of recent departures by signing Ferrari’s chief aerodynamicist Nicolas Hennel.”

Webber no longer has to deal with weighty issue of height (The Canberra Times)

“A comfortable weight for someone of his frame would actually be 82kg. Back when he was a talented teenager with the dreams of making it to the top in motor sport in Europe, I asked him his height. His response: ‘I’m not telling you because I don’t want it to be an issue when I get to F1.'”

Q&A with James Calado (Force India via YouTube)

Times have changed since the era of James Hunt’s seventies romp (The Guardian)

“As Rush unfolds, a nostalgia-fest that becomes a morality play, it becomes increasingly hard to imagine how our “celebrity culture”, policed by red tops and the bloggers, would have coped when faced with a libertine sportsman of Hunt’s stamina. You suspect – as with Tiger Woods and his grim catalogue of infidelities – he would have been destroyed on front page and back before he had even got to the starting grid.”


Comment of the day

Craig Scarborough of dropped in to explain a question which arose from the team radio transcript.

The front wing rotary is simply a way for the driver to communicate how much of a front wing adjustment he’d like at the next pit stop. The position the driver sets the dial to is picked up by the engineers via telemetry. This keeps the info secret, unlike radio broadcast of the setting.

Red Bull a similar dial to describe the tyre condition to the pits.

From the forum

Happy birthday!

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On this day in F1

Two years ago today Sergio Perez tested a Ferrari F60 along with Jules Bianchi. Although the latter remains Ferrari-backed, Perez’s ties to the team were severed when he joined McLaren:

Image © Ferrari/Ercole Colombo

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231 comments on “Alonso ‘more complete’ than Schumacher, says Massa”

  1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
    15th September 2013, 0:22

    Massa really thinks that? or it’s just Ferrari’s PR at delusional levels?

    1. @omarr-pepper
      Why would be a Ferrari PR puppet at this point, when he’s leaving the team soon anyway?

      Felipe is simply telling what’s on his mind. Massa has gone up against Schumacher, Raikkonen and Alonso; and if he thinks that Fernando has been his strongest teammate in Formula 1, then it carries a lot of credibility.

      1. +1 @kingshark

        As soon as I saw the headline I groaned. Not because I think Massa is wrong, but I knew it would bring out legions of Schumi fans convinced that, despite never having so much as sat in a single seater, they still know more about the subject than the near world champion who actually raced alongside both.

        1. As soon as I saw the headline I groaned.

          I laughed.
          Best piece of F1 related trolling I’ve seen in a while – just look at all the comments.
          Nice one, Felipe.

      2. @kingshark

        Felipe is simply telling what’s on his mind.

        Massa is trying to find a seat for next year and he’s been badly beaten by his team mate for the last four season, so obviously it’s in his best interest to tell everyone Alonso is phenomenal.

        1. Exactly! He’s trying to give an excuse for his performance. Pity. I can’t wait for next season.

        2. From Massa’s perspective, he may be right. Schumacher-2006 is not at the same level of Alonso 2010-2012. Lets wait for Alonso-2016.
          But if you take Schumacher 97-2003, it’s a completely different story, imo.

      3. I am pretty sure that Massa feels that way for real @omarr-pepper.

        With Schumacher he was able to win at times and probably felt rather like having a challenge than being just overrrun. Part of it could off course be explained by Massa at the time getting better and better, while Schumi was already getting over the top of his talent when they were partnered. Currently Massa is still recovering from a big crash, he is likely over the top of his career and Alonso is more at the height of his strengths, which is highlighted by the team giving him what he wants/needs to excel (well, apart from the best car, off course).
        That means Massa is comparing himself at his best vs. a dwindling Schumacher with himself dwindling vs. Alonso at the top. Its pretty logical to conclude that Alonso comes out on top then.

        1. I think both @hotbottoms and BasCB are right: what Bas says seems logical, but of course he should say it now.

      4. What is never discussed when talking about Schumacher is his tremendous ability to develop the car. He came into a dismal situation at Ferrari and drove them to incredible results. Vettel, like Schumi, has this innate ability, which is going to make him very difficult to beat as well.

        As for Massa, he simply is past his prime. Its time for him to find another series that will fit his current level of skill.

    2. I wonder how many championships Michael lost on the last day of the season when it was his for the taking?
      But yeah, this sounds like PR spin in the wake of a Kimi signing; the princess got her skirt ruffled.
      (poor Massa is simply a pawn being moved at will with little thought of consequence)

      1. @alebelly74 – I think that’s rather unfair. Massa did everything it took to win the title. It was even his fir fifteen seconds. He lost it because Hamilton passed Glock on the last corner of the last lap. It’s not like he folded at the final hurdle, like both the McLaren drivers did in 2007.

        1. Indeed, that race Massa did all he could and he did it as best as was possible to win that title. But it just was not enough.

        2. “It’s not like he folded at the final hurdle, like both the McLaren drivers did in 2007.”

          Which in itself is rather unfair given what happend to Hamilton in the last 2 races with bad advice from the pit wall in one race, and an absolutly bizarre, never-before-seen, or ever-seen-since gearbox malfuntion that lasted just enough time for him to fall outside the neccesary positions he needed to take the title.

          1. an absolutly bizarre, never-before-seen, or ever-seen-since gearbox malfuntion that lasted just enough time for him to fall outside the neccesary positions he needed to take the title.

            Strange that wasn’t it ;)

          2. He went off track earlier in the race, which didn’t help, nor did his failed pitlane entry in China. @prisoner-monkeys got it right, Hamilton and Alonso folded.

          3. “He went off track earlier in the race, which didn’t help, nor did his failed pitlane entry in China. @prisoner-monkeys got it right, Hamilton and Alonso folded.”

            No, he didnt get it right.

            Going off in China was by-product/a knock-on effect, a result of the ‘bad advice’ to stay out on his tyres because his team expected different weather conditions, Hamilton trusted in his team, *that* was his problem.

            Brazil, going off early in the race was not detrimental to his title challanege, it had no impact on the title outcome. It was the sheer loss of time spent stationary while his bizzare gearbox problem resolved itself is why he lost the title that day. Even despite losing so much time after the gearbox ‘issue’ and falling way behind the entire field, he still manged to fight his way back upto 7th, one place behind the required position needed for the title. Without that problem you can bet your last penny that he’d have finished atleast 6th, and we wouldnt be here arguing about him ‘folding’, going wide at one corner while swerving to avoid the rear end of a car infront.

          4. Going off in China was by-product/a knock-on effect, a result of the ‘bad advice’ to stay out on his tyres because his team expected different weather conditions, Hamilton trusted in his team, *that* was his problem.

            Even with all that, it was perfectly possible to get into the pitlane. So even with the “bad advice”, it was a driver error that ended his race, and hampered his title charge.

            Brazil, going off early in the race was not detrimental to his title challanege, it had no impact on the title outcome. It was the sheer loss of time spent stationary while his bizzare gearbox problem resolved itself is why he lost the title that day.

            Yes, that was an issue, but again, you highlighted that he finished one position behind what was required. Had he not lost so much time initially (falling to around 8th or lower), before the field started to spread out, his comeback later on would have been enough for the title. Hamilton did not put himself in a good position, problem or no problem.

        3. I was talking about Alonso

        4. From my understanding, I think he’s refering to Alonso rather than Massa.

      2. @alebelly74

        I wonder how many championships Michael lost on the last day of the season when it was his for the taking?

        I wonder if you really started watching F1 in 1997 ??????????????????

        1. I was referring to Alonso

      3. I wonder how many championships Michael lost on the last day of the season when it was his for the taking?



        1997 and 2006

        It should have been three.. but he got away with the 1994 stunt scot free

        1. @todfod I don’t hold him entirely responsible for that one, I just think Hill should’ve waited it out – the crash was going to happen anyway. Still, you could argue Schumacher shouldn’t have come back onto the track.

        2. Would have been unfair to strip Schumacher of the title considering what Senna did to Prost four seasons earlier.

        3. Who knows. We can even include 1998

      4. in regards to michael he cracked(that could be argued of course) in the final race in 94, 97, 98 and 2003.

        Of course all for different reasons and all with different results but it makes your comment look rather flawed.

        1. The stall in 98 wasn’t Schumacher’s fault. 97 the Ferrari had chewed its tyres. He closed the door on Villeneuve because Villeneuve went for a reckless lunge.

          94 I agree. He got pressured into a mistake. 2003 he didn’t choke. He had to finish 8th or better and did it.

          1. he made a mess of 03

          2. He needed a point and got it. It was an ordinary drive, but he did what was necessary. He won the title.

            Making a mess of things is Hamilton beaching his car in 07 or Webber and Alonso getting stuck behind slower cars in 2010.

    3. Can Alonso qualify like Schumi did?

    4. May be Massa has a clause in contract not to say anything against Alonso.
      He might sing a different tone end of the season.

    5. I have no idea but Alonso is not that great qualifier and I would go further and say he is the best managing a bad car and a poor driver on a well balanced car.

      1. No driver has had more advantages in car and treatment on the team, including contracted subservients to not compete against him than MS, so I think the suggestion that FA is more complete is a valid one. When all the ducks weren’t in a row MS folded, and when he returned at Mercedes and didn’t have the endless resources and testing and the contracted subservient, he got beat by Rosberg 3 years straight.

  2. I wouldn’t go that far, Felipe. Alonso is an excellent driver – arguably the most complete of the current drivers.

    Schumacher was stunningly good though. At times he lacked morality, but by god did he win prolifically. I personally hold him second only to Senna in my own all-time rankings. He went to Ferrari and made everyone work for him, then rolled in the spoils. Love him or loathe him, did he ever earn his success.

    1. Absolutely, but remember the car was usually the best of the grid from ’01 to ’04 ;-)

    2. Well Massa only had Michael as a team mate for 1 year (the last before retiring) and maybe for him the Michael of 2006 wasn’t as good as the Alonso 2010-2013, for me it’s a waste of time trying to compare drivers but I can see why he would say that.

      1. That’s the only reason I can think of other than delusion.

        1. or common sense, the results against massa for both drivers are in black and white, chiselled away in stone.

          and dont forget he was test driver at ferrari also for quite along time, during some of MS best years. He knows better than most. Only one other person has seen both(and senna, though not at his peak) up close and personal and that is Pat Symonds, who also puts Alonso on top.

          i dont think massa is the delusional one.

          1. What is there to imply Alonso is better than Schuamcher? Certainly not statistics @q85. Certainly not every driver ranking in history.

          2. Pat Symonds did what? Maybe you should refer to the article in Autosport, authored by Symonds, where he explicitly stated that Schumacher was easily the best driver he’d worked with – better than Alonso, and better than Senna. (Although the latter is perhaps unfair as he only worked with Senna for his rookie? season).

      2. I don’t think Massa is one for letting his ego get in the way, but it would make him look a lot better saying that the only reason he hasn’t come near Alonso on a regular basis is due to the fact that he’s a superior driver to Schumacher.

      3. i actually think monza 04 was the last time we saw Schumi at full throttle. That hiddeous accident he had in testing definitely effected him. Look at tge 04 results after that. I think the schumi of 06 was definitely not as good as Alonso of 2012 but Schumi of 97-02 was stunning to watch sometimes

        1. I thought 2003 was the first year he had days where he was just off. I think him and Ferrari had become a little complacent after how strong they were in 01 and 02. 2003 was the wake up call, which is how the dominance of 04 came about.

          He did take the foot off the pedal at the end of 2002 and 2004 when both championships had been won. Last half of 2006 he was utterly dominant.

      4. I thought exactly the same. And the fact that when you are younger it’s harder to see how good others are.

    3. amen to that…

    4. There’s no doubt, Schumi new how to grab the initiative (a but like Bernie in this photo!).

      1. *Knew -_-

      2. *a bit like Bernie -_- -_-
        I think it’s time for me to go to bed. Zzzzz

        1. I would give your post an ‘ x rating ‘ ..

          seriously LOL

    5. @vettel1

      I wouldn’t go that far, Felipe. Alonso is an excellent driver – arguably the most complete of the current drivers

      In the last 3 years Shumacher was still racing in F1 and Alonso in that period was regarded as the undisputed best driver on the grid.
      You will still argue that Shumacher Mercedes isn’t Shumacher Ferrari which is true but Alonso was also a tough rival for Shumacher even in his Ferrari days
      Shumacher was known for being a racing machine working always hard with the engineers to develop the car, in that aspect Alonso is even better than Shumacher Luca Di Montezemolo, Stefano Domenicali, Marc Géné and many other Ferrari team members said that there has been no driver in the history of Ferrari that spends more time in the Factory than Alonso even Michael himself.
      For those who support the conspiracy theory i don’t think that this is the first time we hear some F1 figures considering Alonso one of the greatest of this sport and not all of them are in research of an F1 seat

      1. I always wonder where the Alonso fans come off saying “Best beyond comparison” or “Unrivalled talent” when at the same time you’ve had a youngling barely out of his teens steadily become the number one on the entire paddock. Statements like those are unfounded.
        Are they blind, or is the denial so strong?

        I also wonder where do Teflonso’s fans come off portraying him as a demigod of technical feedback and a car whisperer. Alonso won his championships at Renault when they had the tuned mass dampers, a device which I believe was falsely banned to prefer Ferrari.
        Where do you base your statements that Alonso is better at developing cars than, say, Massa?
        He had 2(08-09) seasons at Renault and the best he could come up with to win a race was to have his teammate crash deliberately at an optimal time. He’s now had 3+ seasons at Ferrari and his car whispering talents are still yet to produce a WDC or WCC winning car.

        Massa saying this is just Ferrari’s PR department trying to smooth over Santander’s ruffled feathers after signing Räikkönen alongside their egoistic golden boy.

      2. “[…]Alonso in that period was regarded as the undisputed best driver on the grid.”

        … that’s not even remotely close to be true.

        1. that’s not even remotely close to be true.

          That’s not my words Team principles, ex world champions like Niki Lauda Jackie Stewart Emerson Fittipaldi Jacques Villeneuve …. Journalist and all the F1 world have agreed on that, i’m not responsible if you were not watching F1 in the last couple of years

          1. You seem to have a very narrow vision of what the popular opinion was in those years. I would advice you to open your mind a bit, and try not to be limited by a certain driver or team fanatism.

          2. The opinions of four world champions count for far more than any fanaticism ever could.

      3. I’ll laugh at your words if Kimi beats Alonso next year. But I’d prefer to see Vettel and Alonso as teammates next year.

        1. @osvaldas31

          But I’d prefer to see Vettel and Alonso as teammates next year.

          Me too and a lot of F1 fans but Vettel said a big NO to that offer.

          1. @nomore No, he didn’t that is pure speculation. He said he’d preferred Raikkonen to Alonso because he was friends with the former (he said that with regard to Dan Ricciardo as well); he further confirmed that he’d be fine racing alongside Alonso.

        2. @osvaldas31
          Be sure at the end of the season i’ll be laughing even more at your words !!!!!!!!
          Vettel declined an offer from Ferrari and has required Newey’s services as a guarantee to stay with Red Bull and has preferred Ricciardo to be his teammate over Raikonnen which he preferred to be his teammate over Alonso

          1. Actually, Vettel preffered Raikkonen over Ricciardo, while Alonso wasn’t really an option to race in RB, it was pure speculation and mind games. Unless you work at RB and know better.

          2. @tifoso1989 so he wants to put himself in the best position to win yet another championship. Is that a bad thing?

            Alonso wanted to retain Felipe “Fernando is faster than you” Massa…

          3. @tifoso 1989 & @vettel1

            TBH there is no evidence than pure speculation about either vettel’s veto of Kimi/Alonso getting the RBR seat or Alonso preffering Massa over Kimi…

          4. @puneethvb it’s slightly innevitbale that all want the best seat first, a teammate that will do what he wants also. But I agree, there’s no reason to suggest any of them cared so much as to veto a decision.

    6. @vettel1

      I do agree with you but I also agree with Massa to an extent. Let’s examine his claim shall we. Let me start out by saying that I’m of course a huge Schumacher fan and in my opinion (and in Murray Walker’s famous words, it only has to be an opinion) Schumacher is the greatest ever driver both in terms of racecraft, is remarkable ability to relentlessly push ill-handling cars and take them to places they had no right to be, be it wet or dry. But let’s keep that aside for a second.

      The problem for Schumacher was that his true peak, in terms of performance, was between 1996-1999 and unfortunately a lot shorter than Senna’s, who could be argued was the best of his generation between 1986-1994. Alonso likewise also has an edge in this department. I would say that between 2006 to 2013, he has been the best driver on the grid and I realize a good chunk of people will disagree with me. Secondly and again a lot of Schumi fans will disagree with me, but he just wasn’t the same driver after Silverstone ’99. He certainly lost something, I can’t define it for you but the Schumacher of the old wasn’t there. He was beatable in a similarly performing car from then on. Alonso’s personal peak may yet not have arrived! Who knows? Also remember that the first half of ’06 was the only time Alonso truly has driven the fastest car of the field, a luxury Schumacher had a lot in some of his dominant years!

      When Massa was driving in 06, Schumi was certianly not the same driver in 1998 say. (Although Schumacher’s second half fightback in 06 was very inspired and did remind me of his title charge in 98). The Alonso, Massa has had to contend with for the past four years is a completely different beast to Schu’s 06. So I can see why Massa would say what he said:

      Also let’s do a point by point:
      1. Lap-by-lap consistency: Schumacher (but Alonso a very close second!)
      2. Qualifying (Alonso=Schumi)
      3. Wet-weather: Schumi (Alonso is good but not on the same level!)
      4. Race-craft/spatial awareness (Alonso = Schumi)
      5. Overtaking (Alonso, Schumi a close second)
      6. Starts (Alonso, Schumi was particulartly poor in this department especially in the 90’s)

      Now I’ll let you decide. Phew! that was long :)

      1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
        15th September 2013, 2:30

        2. Qualifying (Alonso=Schumi)

        Schum is the all time greatest in that. Have you seen where Alonso is in poles?

        1. He had 68 poles to his 91 wins. Schumacher was no slouch over one hot lap, but I don’t consider him the all time greatest qualifier. I thought Hakkinen in his prime was better, let alone all the drivers before or since Schumacher’s prime that are fantastic qualifiers (Clarke, Senna, Hamilton and Vettel to name a few).

        2. @omarr-pepper

          “Schum is the all time greatest in that”.

          I would phrase that in a different way. Schumacher has the highest number of poles, but as @colossal-squid said, there have been better qualifiers than him, although I’m not sure if Alonso and Schumacher ever cared about poles that much. It was easier to overtake in the mid and late nineties. In the early 2000’s overtaking did become a problem, but Ross then adopted the overtake-in-the-pits mentality, which frankly I disliked a bit. Even in 2005/06 I mostly recall Alonso starting in the pack and then more often then not fighting for a podium position or a win (Although races like Hungary 05 were a notable exception).

          Also the claim that Hakkinen was a better qualifier than Schumi is dubious in IMO. Mclaren had by far the most dominant qualifying (and race) car in 1998. They had poles in the first 13 races that season, although I do recall Fisichella taking pole in one event. Similarly in 2000 when Michael had the relatively more dominant car he had more poles.

        3. @omarr-pepper
          Have you ever heard of someone called Ayrton Senna ?

          1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
            15th September 2013, 15:31

            @tifoso1989 yes, it happens we are talking “Alonso vs Schum” and it happens Schum has the all-time record. So yes, Schum is the one with most poles in F1 history, or to agree with you, Senna did almost the same in less, less time, but let’s stop there, because there are 2 current drivers which the same number of victories, but that would start an endless argument with you, and it’s Sunday, I just want to be in good mood.

      2. @sankalp88 excellent argument . Well written stuff. But sadly I believe Alonso’s peak was last year . Surely 2012 was the best . I sincerely hope becomes better next year . This year has been touch and go . Again the car never has really been there or thereabouts.

        But definitely I prefer Alonso as he has better ethical racing sense and spatial awareness compared to Schumacher. If only Alonso can qualify a llittle better ……
        I was a big fan then but after seeing 94′ (in videos )and the monaco incident , I lost admiration for Schumacher . Sadly wasn’t around to see Schumacher vs Senna . I think it was a lot similar to Schumacher vs Alonso in 2006 with the roles reversed .

        1. So you call the driver with the least ethical win the more ethical one of the two?

          1. Since the ethical failure was Briatore/Piquet Jnr, @hamilfan can claim that.

      3. @sankalp88 I’ll spring off that and do what I feel is an all-time ranking in each of those categories:

        1. – Lap-by-lap consistency – Schumacher: utterly relentless. Rarely made mistakes.

        2. – Qualifying – Senna: he outqualified Alain Prost by seconds at times.

        3. – Wet weather – very close between Schumacher and Senna, but I think the latter edges it.

        4. – Race Craft – that’s a tricky one. I wouldn’t say Schumacher, maybe Prost? Clark also had very good racecraft.

        5. – Overtaking – again, tricky. Alonso may have a point of call here.

        6. – Starts – I think this is highly subjective, as of course starts are very dependant on cars. So I’m not going to call that one.

        1. Alonso consistency is rarely matched. Schumacher at his peak could, but he made more unforced errors than alonso (pat symonds words in F1 mag 3 years ago)

          To look at fernandos consistency watch the 2008 japanese grand prix. The car was not a Ferrari, mclaren or BWM on pace but he won that race by been the most consistent driver out there. Usually forgotten but for me one of his best ever races.

          Schumacher at hungary 1998 was also outstanding, lucked in a little with mikas retirement but his pace to make the strategy work was mind blowing.

          1. Alonso consistency is rarely matched. Schumacher at his peak could, but he made more unforced errors than alonso (pat symonds words in F1 mag 3 years ago)

            Cars are so much easier to drive today. Through the 90’s Schumacher’s cars were a handful. You just have to compare onboard clips from then to now.

            Alonso came into F1 during the traction control era, then transitioned to cars with the same characteristics as now.

          2. 08 wasnt traction control. and if its so easy why arent others doing it???

            They arent, and michael couldnt in the new cars either. So stop talking BS

          3. 08 wasnt traction control. and if its so easy why arent others doing it???

            Others doing what? Make mistakes. The top drivers make few mistakes. Even on bad tyres the don’t struggle to keep it on the track.

            Schumacher coming back at 40 after three years on the sidelines getting rusty hardly disgraced himself against hungry drivers physically at their peak and racing for their careers is hardly relevant to anything.

            By last year he was effectively on Rosberg’s pace. He got a pole at Monaco which is the one track where a driver can make up for a car disadvantage with ability.

          4. q85 that’s because Michael was over 40 years old by the time he was driving the new cars. I have no doubts that his earlier 90’s ones were much more of a handful that the current generation.

    7. I think the explanation is in the “currently” @vettel1. When Schumi and Massa were teammates Alonso was the better driver (2005-2006 he was) compared to Schumi. And currently he is better than Massa is when they are partnered, as well as probably being better than the 2007/2008 Hamilton (who beat Massa), and off course Alonso 2009-2012 has been better than 2010-2012 Schumi as well.
      Massa is talking about his own experience, not about what Schumacher achieved before that (its hard to compare when he was not there)

      1. @bascb that’s very logical; of course we’re comparing a driver who had been at the top of his game and was starting to drop-off in Schumacher to a young (and pretty promising) Massa, with much talent.

        Whereas 2012 was Alonso’s best season to date I will say pretty affirmatively, and one of Massa’s worst (post crash he just hasn’t been the same driver). So the perspective is definitely skewed somewhat.

        1. If he isnt the same driver, how did he qualify 2nd in his first race back?

    8. At times he lacked morality

      Well, well, well, then Massa can be onto something, in the end…. In these particular terms, Schumi and Alonso as two heavyweights contenders, me thinks….

  3. Curious! What is it though that makes Alonso a more complete driver than Schumacher?

    1. @scuderiavincero The ability to single-handedly crush a teammate’s morale? ;)

      1. @journeyer Schumacher is more than a match in that respect ;) “So Barichello, you want to win races and championships? Tell me that again when I’ve lapped you” :P

        1. “Rubens.. let Michael lap you.. for the championship!”

          1. @fastiesty “…and now go and test my tyres for me. Chop chop slave!”

    2. The advice of Ferrari’s PR department? ;-)

    3. At the height of Schumacher’s powers, Ferrari had the luxury of unlimited testing. They could run every permutation and combination of set-up changes, which allowed them to understand the car on the most fundamental level imagineable. So even when the car had its shortcomings, Ferrari and Schumacher could easily get the most out of it and adapt their approach to make up the difference.

      Now that we have restricted testing, the teams and drivers have to get everything right every single time – and when something goes wrong, it can really hurt. The driver really has to push to make any impact, and Alonso can do that. His drive at Monza is proof of as much. And he’s been forced to do it consistently, since Ferrari haven’t had a decent car for years. They fall further and further behind over the course of the season, but Alonso has consistently been at the front.

      So, in a way, I think Massa is right. Schumacher had a very deep understanding of the car, but his overall skill set was quite narrow in its focus. Alonso, on the other hand, has a whole range of talents that Schumacher never had (or, if he did, he never had to employ).

      1. At the height of Schumacher’s powers, Ferrari McLaren, Williams, Toyota, BAR, Renault had the luxury of unlimited testing. They could run every permutation and combination of set-up changes, which allowed them to understand the car on the most fundamental level imagineable. So even when the car had its shortcomings, Ferrari McLaren, Williams, Toyota, BAR, Renault and Schumacher and their drivers could easily get the most out of it and adapt their approach to make up the difference.

        1. cos they all had tracks in their garden didnt they?

          1. That’s why most of the teams were/are based near Silverstone.

          2. Ferrari is the only team that has their own track, and in MS’s day Bridgestone had a headquarters there too. Just because most of the teams were/are based near Silverstone did not mean that they could go there whenever they liked to test, in case you are under that mistaken impression. But Ferrari could use their own track any time, and did.

  4. Funny how you all think Alonso is not great
    He beat Schumacher and Kimi
    And Hamilton
    If Adrian was not designing the RedBull
    Alonso would have won the WDC in 2010, 2012
    And 2007 if McLaren had been fair to him
    And Alonso would be the only back to back 3 x champion in two different race teams He only missed out by 3 points
    And Massa has admitted on TV to Martin that he was stronger then Kimi and Schumacher
    Ha ha ha
    Bring on 2014 can’t wait

    1. Vettel – 4 championships
      Alonso – 2 championships
      Schumacher – 7 championships

      1. So you see into the future
        If Alonso wins 2013, your Kurt remark will be useless
        Vettle has 2 titles down to luck and team orders
        2011 had the best car and drove it well so is an honest champion for 2011
        2010 should have been webers
        And Alonso should have won 2012 but for rotten luck
        Like I said
        Can’t wait for brazil this yr and 2014

        1. Oh come on!!!!

          Vettel has his title due team orders?!

          If any of the three Vettel is the one whose team mate has denied himself to do team orders, unlike Massa and Barrichello.

        2. In 2012, you say Alonso had some rotten luck – what about Vettel then in Valencia and Italy?
          Vettel won titles due to luck and team orders? All champions need a bit of luck, that’s normal, but there weren’t many team orders that I remember. It’s a bit rich coming from an Alonso fan, e.g. Germany 2010, US 2012.
          McLaren gave fair treatment to both Alonso and Hamilton in 2007, it’s just Hamilton was better.

        3. Vettel has 2 titles down to luck and team orders

          I think that’s a completely unjustifiable assessment. How have you reached that conclusion?

          After all in 2010 Vettel beat a driver who’d had a clear boost to his points total from team orders.

        4. Your spelling of “Vettel” is actually the least nonsensical thing you just wrote.

    2. “And 2007 if McLaren had been fair to him”

      Unfairly treated like… the team telling Hamilton to turn down his engine in Monaco and not fight so Alonso could take the win? that kind of unfair treatment you mean?

      Funny how Alonso fans like to create this image that he was unfairly treated. Alonso is known for planting (********) seeds and play the polictics. He knows by making a blanket statement that he was ‘unfairly treated’ that average joe like you would take it as meaning he got lesser opportunity than Hamilton.

      When actually all that Alonso means by ‘unfairly treated’ was that he wasnt favourd as he expected before the season started, and if anythink, according to previous engineers of Mclaren, the team was split 50/50 after the hungary inncodent.

      1. Funny how Alonso fans like to create this image that he was unfairly treated.

        May I introduce you to an Alonso fan who doesn’t think this?


      2. Ron ‘we were just racing fernando’

        Ron ‘ i havent spoke to alonso since september’

    3. Alonso beat Hamilton? A rookie who infuriated him due to his ability to beat him on merit? Nah!

  5. The advice of Ferrari’s PR department? ;-)

    1. That was supposed to be a reply to @scuderiavincero. Sigh.

    2. OmarR-Pepper (@)
      15th September 2013, 2:31

      @aka_robyn looks like Massa stil has some final homework to do at Ferrari’s kindergarten. Now he can get his star on his forehead!!!!!!!!!

  6. You’ve just to love Felipe, playful and cheerful doormat/backmarker that he is. I like how he said, “I think maybe Alonso is even more perfect.” So, apparently there are degrees of perfection according to Felipe. Not to mention his delusional appraisal of King Fernando’s abilities.

    Is there something more going on between these two guys than meets the eye? They seem to be very uniquely devoted to each other in a way that transcends mere comradery and friendship.

  7. I think Alonso and Schumacher are both very, very complete drivers, but in different ways. Schumacher went to Ferrari and used him being the best driver in the world to attract the best people and organise the team around him. Alonso does that too, thought not to the same degree. His strength is his relentlessness, and his ability to drive at 110% consistently without making mistakes. His overall intensity is greater than Schumacher’s, even if he’s not as single-minded.

    Of course, both will go down as true greats of the sport and rightly so. As for who is “better” or “more complete”, it’s probably subjective, though you can’t exactly argue with Michael’s results…

    1. Exactly +1

    2. Next season would determine if Alonso would go down as a great or not Kimi matching or beating him would show Massa has given him this demi-god status he has!

      1. I think 2015 would be the best year to see Kimi vs Alonso since next year Ferrari would be designed completely around Alonso, no input by Kimi at all.

  8. “Alonso is more perfect”? Sure lets look at the stats. hmmm 91 victories vs 32? 7 World Championships vs 2? Yeah, good one Massa… just exit the sport already.

    1. just exit the sport already

      He can’t, he’s too busy kissing Alonso’s…feet.

      1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
        15th September 2013, 2:37

        @hellotraverse hey dude, I think that Tiago Monteiro is the best driver in F1 history, cause he got a podium in the disaster that was Jordan. It was in Indy 2005, remember?

        1. +1! XD

      2. He can’t, he’s too busy kissing Alonso’s…feet.

        You hit the nail on the head. That’s exactly what this is about. A response to Alonso for the love pictures he posted of Mássa.

    2. @mpmark – Don’t forget that Ayrton Senna only had three World Championships, but is still considered the best driver. Michael Schumacher is second or third (he tends to swap places with Juan Manuel Fangio), despite having seven titles.

    3. @mpmark Not a Schumi hater (far from it), but “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics”

    4. If F1 was a sport were every driver had the exact same equiptment/information/personel, et al. then F1 stats would actually hold a little bit of meaning, as it stands though, and incase you didnt notice, equiptment far over shadows driver talent and cant even be taken with a pinch of salt.

      F1 stats are the most useless of all sporting stats, they are in no way an indication of driver ability in any shape or form.

      They are that useless that its not even worth comparing 2 drivers of the same team, because they oftern dont even have the exact same car and/or setup

      1. If F1 was a sport were every driver had the exact same equiptment/information/personel, et al. then F1 stats would actually hold a little bit of meaning

        I’m drawing a blank trying to think of all those sports where the contestants have the exact same personnel. I’m nearly certain that Man United don’t have the exact same personnel as Man City, for instance.

        1. LOL isnt it funny when people make these silly comments what are you in a sport for, if not to leave your name in the record books
          Emotional ratings are what they are try explaining to a kid in 10yrs that Alonso is better than Vettel.
          Afterall Alonso was a 2x WDC before Vettel won his first race and now Vettel has 3 WDC’s and Alonso none in same period.

  9. Wait what?

    Massa, you’re drunk.

    1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
      15th September 2013, 2:33

      @ialtair It’s Massa, not Kimi, but probably yes, he’s drunk.

  10. Alonso was better than Schumacher twice, he won two drivers championships against him. Nothing new.

    1. So Vettel is clearly better than F.A., since he won THREE (soon to be four, by the looks of it) WDC against him, right?

      1. yes.

      2. Of course Vettel is better than Alonso.

    2. By that logic both Hamilton (one championship to none) and Vettel (three championships against none) are better drivers than Alonso. And in fact Schumacher won three championships against Alonso, so he’s better also.

      Your logic also generates some interesting paradoxes, since Alonso is better than Räikkönen (two championships to none), Hamilton is better than Alonso (see above) yet Räikkönen and Hamilton are as talented (both have one championship against each other).

      1. Yes and yes.

      2. As much as many of us like to believe that Alonso is the most complete driver, the reality is that at the moment that driver is Vettel.
        Unfortunately, speculation and wishful thinking isn’t going to provide us with an answer instead the only “true” measure of driver performance is statistics.

    3. 2005 Ferrari were nowhere. 2006? Both Alonso or Michael drove well enough to deserve that title.

  11. It is amazing to read all these comments trying to justify that Schumacher lost two times the WDC against Alonso -driving the best Ferrari car ever-. Schumacher is just like Vettel, they win only driving a superior car, and Schumacher not always -he lost twice-.

    1. Ferrari 2005 was far from being best car on the paddock. In 2006 they were close. Let’s not make up stuff, please.

    2. Are you seriously stating that the F2005 was one of the best Ferrari’s ever? You sound like you have only heard about the 2005-06 seasons or know the results, and not the story of those seasons. It wasn’t as clear cut as Schumacher losing in supposedly superior machinery. I can tell you for a fact that the F2005 was a dog, and the 248 didn’t really get going until mid season.

      This takes nothing away from Alonso’s well deserved championships, and in a head to head in 2006 he came out on top fair and square. But the substance of your comment is laughable.

      1. In 2006 massa won two races, he was second a couple of times as well etc. not a superior car? Yeah… Tell me more. Regarding f2005 you are right but it was due to the poor performance of Bridgestone.

        1. Very well then here’s more: You appear to be suggesting that for Felipe Massa to win in the Ferrari, he would have to have a superior car, as he’s so terrible, right? Well back in 2006 Massa was a rising star, and highly regarded. It’s no surprise that Massa did so well, he’d been in the sport since 2002. Back then Felipe Massa was a completely different driver to the Massa of today. His winning two races does not prove your point.

          Also the 2006 season was a season where there were only two top class teams: Ferrari and Renault. The rest of the field couldn’t compete on their level. Schumacher had a dominant car in 2006, but so did Alonso. Just because Schumacher lost that year doesn’t prove that he could only win in a dominant car – heard of his wins in 1996, 1997, 1998, and 2000? – just that only he lost by a narrow margin.

          1. +100

        2. So in 2006 Massa wins two races and Fisichella one, thereby proving that the Ferrari was a better car than the Renault that year?

          In 2011 Button wins two races and Webber one, thereby proving that the McLaren was a better car than the Red Bull that year.

          1. LOL when people put forward this arguments they dont think further than what they are typing I tell you!

    3. Schumacher is just like Vettel, they win only driving a superior car

      What a load of over-repeated rubbish. You’re only judging cars to be superior, if Vettel or Schumacher (or other drivers who have this nonsense used against them, like Buton, or Hill) just happen to win with them. That is a totally different standard to the one you’d set for someone like Alonso, which is why such statements fall apart every single time.

  12. I would trust the qualifications of Massa more than my own as to who may or may not be a better driver. But, all these comparisons, even from drivers themselves, are still so subjective. Especially the comparisons of drivers in different eras, but still difficult in eras that overlap. My opinion is that Clark was best, but it is still only an opinion. Stats can tell a lot about driver comparisons, but they don’t tell everything. Not to mention changing point systems, variables in competition, regs, tracks, technology and every other variable. Trying to convert diehard fans of one driver with statistics, anecdotal evidence or feelings is akin to arguing politics or religion. So, Massa says he thinks Alonso is better than Schumacher, we will probably never know his subjective reasoning for believing or saying that. There is no foolproof way to prove which one is/was better. Does it really matter? They both are better than almost all other drivers who have ever raced in F1, in their own era or any era. Beyond that, the devil is in the details…

  13. In my time watching F1, Alonso must be the most over-hyped driver of the lot.

    Don’t get me wrong, he’s probably the third best driver on the grid after Vettel and Hamilton, but he’s not even the best driver of his era let alone one of the one of the best of all time.

    He could easily have two championships. If Kimi had a little luck and reliability in 2005 he easily beats Alonso. 2006 Alonso doesn’t win the championship if Renault didn’t use the illegal mass damper for the first half of the season. 2007 he gets beaten by his rookie teammate.

    Basically his claim to fame is beating a an increasingly demoralised teammate who came back from a life-threatening brain injury.

    1. *Could easily have zero championships

    2. agree absolutely. besides, Schumi was on course to win 2006 before that Ferrari engine blew up in Suzuka and I threw my tart at the TV.

    3. And Hamilton could have 0 world championships if Massa’s engine hadn’t failed in Hungary.

      And Raikkonen could have 0 world championships if McLaren didn’t implode during 2007.

      And Vettel could have 1 world championship if Ferrari got their strategy right in Abu Dhabi and if Grosjean had some spatial awareness.

      You see, it’s very easy to twist things in order for them to suit your agenda. I’m pretty sure Alonso’s claim to fame is his two world championships and not beating Massa. But hey if that’s what you want to remember him for then that’s up to you.

      1. @davef1
        +1, It’s funny how people use ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’ to support their own argument while completely ignoring the fact that ‘ifs’ and ‘buts’ can support the opposite argument as well..

      2. And Hamilton could have 0 world championships if Massa’s engine hadn’t failed in Hungary.

        I agree. Hamilton is flawed, but he did beat Alonso in 07 and he was nearly two races clear of Kimi in the championship with two races remaining. A more experienced Hamilton would have sealed the championship. Getting beached going into the pits was almost inexplicable.

        And Raikkonen could have 0 world championships if McLaren didn’t implode during 2007.

        I agree. Why I have never rated Kimi higher than a Jean Alesi for instance.

        And Vettel could have 1 world championship if Ferrari got their strategy right in Abu Dhabi and if Grosjean had some spatial awareness.

        Vettel in a Ferrari would have won 2010 and 2012 if we are to assume he gets the same reliability and same “luck” as Alonso.

        2010 Vettel twice goes out of the race with car trouble while comfortably leading. Vettel was driver of the year. Alonso and Webber were vastly more experienced than Vettel yet Vettel is the one that did crack under the pressure. Ferrari was good enough. Alonso wasn’t.

        2012, Alonso had incredible reliability, a strong car from Barcelona. Once again, when all the pressure was on in the last third of the championship Vettel was flawless while Alonso buckled. I mean the last two races of the year he couldn’t outqualify Massa. In the final race he could only manage to finish one second ahead of Massa. Vettel went from last to 6th in tricky conditions with a compromised car. Vettel was the better driver.

  14. Fikri Harish (@)
    15th September 2013, 6:20

    Keep in mind that Massa has actually worked closely with the two of them and is now in a position where he doesn’t have to play nice either with the team and/or Alonso.

    Forgive me if I’m more inclined to trust his opinion than the rest of you guys here.

    That said, it is still one man’s opinion, and definitely an interesting one at that.
    I don’t think Alonso, or anyone else for that matter, will ever amaze me as much as Schumacher did during a rainy afternoon in 1996 at Catalunya.

  15. Well, if Felipe says so… he must know better.

  16. With all due respect, Felipe Massa has more credibility in his statements than any of us in here, after all he is a F1 driver and he was SCH/RAI/ALO team-mate and none of us are/were… he must have a strong reason why he claims Alonso is the most complete but failed to mention it (or the report didnt catch it…).

    1. He would have credibility if he wasn’t trying to find a seat for next season and has a certain hidden thought as Hotbottoms said.

      We cannot tell whether he said what he actually thinks or whether it was to increase his chances to find a seat. I personally think it’s the latter.

      1. @xenomorph91

        Well what will happen if he says this when he has find a seat or when he retired ?

        1. It’s kind of strange that Massa would go out of his way to say this, given Schumacher was a mentor of sorts for Massa.

        2. We will see if he even says that once he’s retired. I personally doubt it. :P Then it’s under other circumstances, although you still have to consider that F1 drivers have big egos and their opinions have to be controlled very critical as they tend to try to make them look better than actually are.

          So it’s probably not the best idea to consider F1 driver’s opinions in my eyes..

      2. You are not seriously suggesting that experienced team principals who have been actually IN the sport will regard Massa higher only because of such statements, are you?

        My feeling is that his declaration is genuine, but probably, as a previous poster said, reflects who he performed in relation to them. With Schumacher he was a rising star, growing each race, while Alonso found him after a severe accident and after a lost title. I don’t think that Schumi-era Massa is the same as the one which competed against Alonso, both in terms of skill and motivation.

        1. @alexx_88 agreed, which is precisely why I don’t hold his comments as particularly credible.

    2. In principle Massa is the best person to judge the respective qualities of Schumacher and Alonso. However, there is also a bias element that needs to be factored in given his current position. How much is bias and how much is truth i guess we’ll never know….

  17. Shouldn’t more complete driver be able to take at least second or third if not pole position once in while? But hey what do we f1 fans know.

    1. Massa’s looking for a drive next year. What else is he going to say? Blame himself for his decline or blame having the greatest driver ever as teammate?

      By the way, Massa in as bad form he’s in has beaten Alonso four times in qualifying this season. Massa (back when he was quick) beat Schumacher four times in qualifying for the whole of 2006.

  18. Hey guys! Didi you read or hear the interview. It’s completely clear that Massa draws this conclusion because Alonso was harder to catch than Schumi. So, his opinion was just subjective in its logic. If anyone remembers, Massa was somewhat close to MS in pure speed (not race pace), lost first season to Raikkonen, beat him profoundly and had lost a Champion having 2 wins above Hamilton next year (due to 2 or 3 stupid Ferrari pit stop errors). When Alonso arrived in Ferrari, Massa was almost equal until his accident. After this happened, Massa was never the same except 1 or 2 races until today. So, Alonso and Schumi cannot be compared to Massa’s speed because the last altered very much. He just doesn’t want to accept it, as he wants to find a new seat in F1. I hope the best for him but in this comparison, he is the one who lowered the criteria.

    1. Schumacher beat Massa 14-4 in qualifying in 06.

      Massa won in Turkey, but it was probably his best circuit winning three straight years I think it was. Other win was Brazil. If Schumacher didn’t get the first lap puncture he would have comfortably won considering he came from last to finish 4th.

      1. For sure MS was faster than Massa but in pure speed not by so much. Differences in Quals were minors. Race pace and overtaking are other matters favouring MS tremendously. We all know that Massa before the accident was a very fast driver. Otherwise, he couldn’t have done the season in which he lost the title having 2 wins more than LH and 2 or 3 pit stop accidents. Moreover he beat hard Kimi back then.

        1. For sure MS was faster than Massa but in pure speed not by so much. Differences in Quals were minors. Race pace and overtaking are other matters favouring MS tremendously.

          I have no idea where you pulled that one from. Schumacher comprehensively beat Massa in qualifying by large margins. At times over a second quicker.

          1. Could you please stop your BS, mister ?

    2. When Alonso arrived in Ferrari, Massa was almost equal until his accident.

      Massa has had his accident back in 2009, Alonso has joined Ferrari in 2010

      1. You are right. So, even more, the best Massa hasn’t competed Alonso for anyone to have a clue about permormance comparison.

  19. “Schumacher was very, very good. He was amazing and a very complete driver as well. But I think maybe Alonso is even more perfect.”

    It’s very difficult to determine exactly what Massa means with the words “complete” and “perfect”. Every single person has his own definition of ‘perfect’ and ‘complete’, so as long as we can’t take a look inside Massa’s brain, we just don’t know why he thinks the way he thinks about Schumacher and Alonso.

    Just look at the ‘who is the greatest driver?’ discussion: some people would say Schumacher, others Senna, Prost, perhaps Clark, Moss or Fangio. We all have our own definition of ‘great’: for instance in my opinion, a ‘great’ driver is the one driver who is respected by his competitors the most, but that doesn’t mean others should judge the same way.

  20. Even though they are very different mechanically and aerodynamically, the R25 and R26 don’t actually appear to be that different on the surface do they.

  21. Well, the truth hurts and the comments confirm that.

    1. Oh! The Truth is Felipe Massa for you? I thought we people don’t have the absolute truth in knowledge…

  22. Its interesting to see the Renault championship winning cars Alonso has! He was given them by Renault as a gift for winning the championship but he then moved off to Mclaren and Flav was none too happy and delayed giving him them. I worked for a Renault garage at the time and had booked the F1 show car for a motorsport evening, basically a shell with no engine etc but OK for an untrained eye but it had been double booked and we ended up getting the current Alonso winning car, complete with engine and added security! We were not allowed to get near it, touch it or breathe on it! That is, until they both went off for tea for 5 mins before the event – cue the smaller staff members jumping in and getting pictures of themselves in the cockpit! The steering wheel was taken off and we could not believe how light it was – its about the weight of a pencil! Must try and find those pictures!

    1. @our-nige
      It is always nice to read the experience of someone who has been in the real F1 world

      1. Exactly! If you find those pics @our-nige you should stick em’ in the forum.

    2. Lucky you! :D

  23. ….and Vettel more complete than Alonso.

  24. Driver comparisions are difficult at the best of time but in this instance their is so many variables that it holds no weight at all.

    Differences in age, motivation, driver relationship, length of time faced, freshness in mind and of course was the felipe Massa that faced Schumacher/Raikkonen the same man that faced Alonso means we’re comparing apples with banana’s

    To be clear im not attacking massa here, he clearly answered a question/made comment without considering the context and perhaps he’s even correct with his opinion but the basis on which he has come to that opinion is flawed.

  25. “haters gonna hate!”

    I find it quite amusing that some think that we see ALO as a demigod. Far from it. I personally think he is the best living driver on the Grid. If he would have been allowed to win and have drivers move out of the way as some have in previous races to other WDC, he would be a 5 time WDC! Just being 2 time sub wdc in bad cars is a testament to his greatness! Ok, the F10 wan´t all that bad, and is probably the only good Ferrari he has driven but still it is something that all should take into considration. It speaks volumes about his consistency. Sure, he is not the greatest in one lap, but who cares? I don´t measure greatness on Saturdays when points arren´t given out… I measure it on sundays when it means the world to the drivers!
    Being good in a bad car is difficult… being great in an awesome car is easy.
    I was a SCHUMI fan for a long time but, now, I understand the difference in having a great car undrneath you. Nobody else has had a car winning a minute ahead of the rest. Schumi´s domination came to and end after heavy changes in the regs… lets hope this happens aswell in 2014. Anybody see any similarities between both german drivers? and who knocked off the “best” from his pedestal? I can just hope that history reapets itself one more time!

    1. I feel I have to remind you guys that Senna, Schumacher and Hakkinen sometimes were close to lapping their own team-mates. From time to time they actually did.
      There are still personell in the McLaren-organisation that are comvinced Mika Hakkinen is the fastest driver McLaren has ever had.
      Just to remind you guys how great those guys were compared to the rest of the field.

    2. Nobody else has had a car winning a minute ahead of the rest.

      Plenty of drivers have had that. Genuinely dominant cars (not faux “dominant” cars like the recent RB’s) used to be common in F1. Detroit, 1988 – Senna and Prost lap the entire field.

    3. @karter22

      If he would have been allowed to win and have drivers move out of the way as some have in previous races to other WDC

      I cannot agree with you here. Alonso has had easily the least resistant teammates of any of the other WDC and a team more than happy to depose of them for his benefit (crashgate and Massa’s gearbox ring a bell?).

      He clearly can’t be that great either if he needs his teammates to move out of the way to win titles. That’s a luxury Vettel has rarely been afforded, yet he’s won three (on his way to a fourth).

      1. @vettel1
        Oh Max, I wasn´t reffering to his team mates getting out of his way. I was reffering to instances sort of like what we have seen in Brazil 2012 (Schumi letting SV by) or the abu dahbi when a certain STR went off track to ensure safe passage to a certain someone. Or if we go back some more…. (I know I´ll get burnt for this but so be it) A certain toyota staying out on slicks and inevitably, pulling over and letting some guys past…
        I know Alonso has had help within his team, I do not dispute that, after all, he had the clearest shot at the WDC between both of the team drivers in 2010 and 2012. And before you bring up Hockenheim 2010, what good would one race have been for Massa, assuming he would have won Hockenheim? He still had a poor season after that! My comment was solely aimed at help from other drivers! Not within the team! It seems other WDC have had “indirect” help from others! And to be honest, and I think I said this in its moment, I totally lost all respect for Schumacher when he let SV past in Brazil, there was no need for that.
        What I meant basically is for example…. what if Petrov in his day would have just moved over in 2010? Stuff like that is what I meant.

        Oh and the gearbox issue was a totally tactical move! Any team would have done the same thing if they would have been fighting for the WDC. I hope I cleared up what I meant to say Max.

        1. (I know I´ll get burnt for this

          – yes, and rightfully so @karter22.

          A discussion is based on people using facts, or at least well informed opinions. Not nonsense.

          Sure, Schumi made it a tad easier for Vettel by going out of the way. On the other hand, he made sure not to lose much time himself by not having to defend, and there was nothing to win (he was never going to be able to keep Vettel behind, car wise. And DRS wise). As for the toyota – just no.

          Shall we compare that to Ferrari ordering a Sauber to let Schumi by but impede his rival. Or a team boss asking his 2nd driver to crash? I don’t think so.

          Massa and his season after Hockenheim 2010 – the argument presented is exactly that. Up to that race Massa had been pretty close to Alonso, and maybe if he had not had to give up that one, he would not have dwindled like he did.

          1. @bascb

            A discussion is based on people using facts, or at least well informed opinions.

            Well, that´s the things about opinions, what you might think is nonsense, some actually believe it with a passion. Personally, I really believe Glock stayed out on Slicks for a reason, but that is just my opinion. Schumi in Brazil, sure he might not have had anything to gain but I mean, you are a professional racing driver, show some back bone for crying out loud!! Don´t just bend over for the kid!
            About Crashgate, well, I cannot say anything about it… Briatore was and always will be a shady character.
            Oh and the other case could you please refresh my memory, what year was that ?? I don´t recall that Sauber episode. But then again, what are we critizicing here? Teams or help from other teams to other WDC? I don´t remember that sauber episode but if that was the case, I find it despicable… I consider team orders to be ok but, intra-team orders, I detest!
            That is my whole arguement! It is ok to have help from your team mate when your team orders it but it enrages me when other teams help a certain team to get a certain outcome! That really ticks me off and is basically all I´m saying.

          2. THat is why i mentioned well informed opinions @karter22.

            I too am convinced Glock stayed out on slicks for a reason: because he/his team thought it worth the gamble on the rain not worsening to get a few points more.

            The problem with trying to hang on to nonsense as your opionion is, when you start mentioning those things as if there is any truth in it. Because I see no way that you could even argue a good case for Glock (or big spending Toyota) to want to do anything like helping Hamilton win that championship.

            The Sauber thing was despicable (there were rumours at the time, the driver later confirmed it and off course running both a Ferrari engine and having a Chassis based on the Ferrari gave the motive). The same for Singapore 2008.
            Now I can imagine both STR drivers being less than tough when being passed by a RBR car (just look how good ALG faired when he held up Vettel in a training session), and Schumacher not wanting to fight a position he is going to lose anyway when he is in his last ever F1 race and its his “pupil” doing to overtaking, but really Glock?

            That has been nicely shown to be nonsense so many times its not “having an opinion” but just ignoring reality when you believe that one.

          3. @karter22
            “I really believe Glock stayed out on Slicks for a reason”. It was to try to gain some positions, and after gaining a position by passing Kovalainen, it actually paid off. Here are the lap times from the last lap: Glock – 1.44.731, Trulli – 1.44.800, so why continue with the conspiracy theory? Glock was behind Hamilton when he pitted, so it would’ve worked out for Hamilton either way. Do you really believe Toyota would’ve helped Hamilton out? You must be seriously deluded to think anything like that.

  26. “Do I think Alonso is a more complete driver than Schumacher? That’s laughable. Sure, I’ve been badly beaten by Alonso every year we’ve been team mates, but let’s be honest – after losing my confidence in 2010 your granny has probably driven better than me. Oh, that reminds me – Ferrari just kicked me out of the team, so I’m looking for an available seat in Formula 1! Team owners, contact me if you have one!”

    I mean, is someone actually expecting Massa to give this kind of an interview? His statement here means nothing in my opinion.

  27. First of all, ALO actually did at very young age beat SCH to the title not once but twice, and he did so in a non-dominant package. I think the statements of MAS should be put in that contest. It is not like comparing ALO to someone from a different era, that he has not actually raced with.

    Reading some of the posts below, it is amusing how some people will go to great lengths in order to continue believe what they like to believe, even when most evidence both events and statements points in the opposite direction. Even when the one and only person, that has the first hand information about the subject, tells very frankly his conclusion having first hand tried both sides, they will try to “explain it”, contest it, tell everyone how it still is consistent with their perception (that he is wrong) and does not change the reality (i e how they choose to see/believe things).

    Obviously, to me what MAS is saying today is no news really. I cannot compare to drivers pre 1994 as that is when I started watching F1, but ALO is the best that I have seen racing. It can be verified from the actual racing action from the last ten or so years IMO. ALOs current race engineer who also was the race engineer for SCH has also made statements pointing in the same direction. The fact that MAS, without any kind of outside pressure as he is free of contract now, gives the same picture, says all that needs to be said.

    Last but not least, ALO never tried to win a championship by driving his nearest rival into the wall (Hill) or try crashing into him to take him out (Villeneuve). Neither did he park his car in a corner at Monaco during qualy claiming he had a failure, in order to stop others from beating him to pole (ALO). Those aspects, in my view, are also part of being “more complete”.

    1. Alonso never tried to win a championship by driving his nearest rival into the wall (Hill) or try crashing into him to take him out (Villeneuve)

      By which I assume you mean Schumacher tried to win championships by causing collisions with those drivers?

      1. Schumacher didn’t try to drive Hill into a wall, but he did try to take Villeneuve out.

      2. Do you think otherwise ? Because I understand from your comment @keithcollantine that you don’t believe that Shumacher crashed into Hill & Villeneuve on purpose ??? At least with Villeneuve he was found guilty and was disqualified from WDC, correct me please if i missed something

      3. I think my attempt to clear up any confusion has had the opposite effect.

      4. Maybe I expressed myself clumsily (english not my strongest language), but yes – IMO history shows that SCH would not hesitate a second driving into a rivals car, deliberately, if taking that rival out would grant him the title.

    2. “Last but not least, ALO never tried to win a championship by driving his nearest rival into the wall (Hill) or try crashing into him to take him out (Villeneuve). Neither did he park his car in a corner at Monaco during qualy claiming he had a failure, in order to stop others from beating him to pole (ALO). ”

      Nah, he just let his teammate crash on a wall so he could win.

    3. First of all, ALO actually did at very young age beat SCH to the title not once but twice, and he did so in a non-dominant package.

      What is the definition of a “non-dominant package”? The 2006 Renault won 8 of 18 races (44%) and collected 63.6% of all possible points. The 2012 Red Bull won 7 of 20 races (35%) and collected just 53.5% of all possible points. Yet I’m frequently told that the former was a “non-dominant car” and the latter was a “dominant car”.

      Call me a cynic, but I’m starting to suspect that a “non-dominant car” means “A car in which a driver I like wins the WDC” and a “dominant car” means “A car in which a driver I don’t like wins the WDC”.

      1. @jonsan: +1, very well put.

      2. Did not see this replay until today, hence the late response.

        “What is the definition of a “non-dominant package”?”
        I will tell you what I consider to be a dominant package in this context. Reverse that for (the trivial) answer to your question.
        A package that does consistently give its driver a significant advantage over the closest competitor/runner up in the championship. E g ability to consistently starting from grid position well ahead of main competitor, and/or consistently having better race pace and/or for majority of the time having a car faster and easier to handle than main competitor.

        If you now continue your statistical exercise and compare RELEVANT indicators for performance of the Redbull CAR vs that of the Ferrari of 2012, I think you will find it (if you like) trivial to prove package-domination. Number of wins/scored points is not as good, as those indicators factor in “driver consistency” – a top notch and consistent driver may overachieve with a bad car (gaining more wins/points than possible given car performance) while a “medium notch”/inconsisten driver may underachieve in a very good car (gaining less wins/points than possible given car performance).

        I invested 2 minutes to get one piece of such info – regarding starting position:
        VET started on row 1 in 13 out of 20 races (sorry did not care calculate percentages). Row 2 in additional 3 out of 20. So in 16 out of 20 races he started from one of the first 2 rows – and WELL AHEAD of the closest Ferrari. Race pace – A redbull set the fastest lap in 10/20 races. Ferrari 0/20…cheers

  28. I don’t think the comparison between Woods and Hunt is really any good or an indicator that times have changed. Times have changed in the respect that business and sport are more PR driven these days but both situations were different for numerous reasons, not just the period in which they happened. Woods was from the sport of golf – it’s portrayed as a gentleman’s game (literally as some women can’t get near the clubs) so a guy getting caught cheating and speculation that he was a sex addict went completely against the idea of the golfing world. He got caught out of step with his sport. There’s also been speculation among those who take an interest in racial issues in society whether he got more stick as a black man due to the historic, racist myth that black men are uncontrollable when it comes to sex.

    In other sports though, where *action* is the focus or danger then there seems to be a different idea of what makes a “real man”. It’s been pretty common for racing drivers and footballers to be linked with plenty of women while in relationships but that’s just seen as normal and something to be cheered at. The only recent examples I can think of footballers getting any grief were Terry, but that may be because he broke “the guy code” for having sex with his mate’s wife and Rooney – but the jokes and criticism he got were primarily for sleeping with a grandmother/someone rather more older than him. Ironically then, even though he was getting grief the condemnation ended up being almost entirely sexist.

    Hunt did race decades ago but I suspect even today there’s still a good chance he’d be the guy that fans would want to have a pint with. F1’s a rather different world to golfing after all. Personally though, I don’t particularly care about their sex lives which is probably why I’m not fussed about Hunt as he got more attention for what he did after the races than during. That said, I really can’t wait to see Rush…

    Not surprised at what Massa’s said about Schumi. He’s worked with both so he knows more than me. I like Alonso better than Schumi anyway.

  29. I don’t agree with you Felipe – of course you know both drivers better than I do, but perhaps you overestimate yourself. You beat Schumacher a few times in 2006, and now that is rare with Alonso, but you are not the same anymore.
    And you shouldn’t be making a compliment at the expense of someone who you owe a lot to, and in favour of someone you rivalled with even before becoming team mates, and who has never supported you if not for his own benefit.

  30. When Massa entered F1 in 2002, I was sceptical of him, he was touted as a future Ferrari driver from the outset, but he did not seem to have the ability to be a top driver, he seemed too inconsistent. My mind was changed when he started doing so well against Shumacher and even started winning. He was consistently growing as a better driver. Teamed versus Raikonnen, at first he was a match for him, he was in the title race up to nearly the end, and then gave Raikonnen the position in the last race of 2007 to help his team, in 2008 he dominated Raikonnen and was a worthy champion (more worthy then raikonnen the year before), ableit for 15 seconds. I take Massa’s oppinion of Alonso as entirely genuine. Sure, massa had serious injury, as is not the same driver anymore, but Alonso of all his teammates has outpaced him far more often then raikonnen or Schumacher – that is fact, not PR.

  31. Re: COTD. Williams also (and I suspect many others) use a “tyre condition dial”on the steering wheel; when Valtteri Bottas talked about his steering wheel it had three or four settings, the first one being “everything’s still grippy” and the last one “pitting in a lap or two”. This is definitely an easier way to communicate about tyre issues rather than asking on each lap.

  32. reading the comments its almost like everyone wants massa to change his own opinion lol. Massa knows better than anyone on here, and thats what he believes

    1. @scuderia29 he knows best about his own situation, absolutely. But that can majorly skew your judgement. It’s no secret that he’s been a shadow of his former self since 2009. It’s not secret that Schuamcher wasn’t at his best in 2006. So then, why ought we trust one man’s opinion over countless statistics? Everything says Schumacher was a better driver than Alonso in his heyday, and I doubt this is a case of statistics not accurately portraying the story somehow.

      Races like Barcelona 1996 were simply astonishing.

      1. @vettel1 I agree with you that Schumacher is a better driver all around, but calling on stats isn’t really the best way to stage your argument. If stats matter, than Fangio and Jim Clark – the two driver’s with the highest win ratios – are the best by a massive margin. They also boast the highest percentage of front-row starts, with only Ayrton Senna being in the same league. According to statistics Niki Lauda, James Hunt and Mario Andretti are amongst the “worst” of the champions.
        That said, I will argue Schumacher was an absolutely brilliant driver (easily top 5 of all time), and in terms of raw speed, he was better than Alonso. His early career indicated that, as does the fact that in qualifying, Lewis Hamilton took three fold the poles that Alonso did in 2007. But when it comes to race pace and the ability to overdrive the car lap after lap, I’d side with Alonso being a little bit better. Schumacher often buckled and made mistakes under pressure and his overtaking skills weren’t the best (I can link you to some old bootleg F1 races on youtube if you want proof). Schumi established the legacy he did because he had an extremely long career, most of which was spent in one of the fastest cars on the grid–even in the fastest car on the grid, i.e. his cake walk championships in 2002 and 2004. He never was in a Minardi, Toleman or some utter pig of a car. Lackluster perhaps but never hopeless.
        Numbers are fickle and misleading, my friend. You’ve got a fine blob of grey matter and fat in your skull (your brain). Use it.

        1. let’s put into context:
          1. massa has been on the floor since the accident in hungary (or since ’10 in germany) yet alonso -on the level of pr and words- considers him worthy for a ferrari seat, massa is greatful for that
          2. you can’t compare the two mindsets of a ‘championship prospect and heir apparent’ and a burn out driver; everything looks taller from a lower POV
          3. i know the analogy has big flaws and it’s a bit forced but schu considered häkkinen his all-time greatest rival, not senna (i know, i know, biggest rival != better drive)

        2. @bforth I readily acknowledge the limitations of statistics – hence why despite all the evidence I still hold Senna as the greatest driver ever – but in this case, they simply cannot be ignored. Schumacher’s pole to win rate for example, even if we ignore the stupid qualifying permutations. The way in which he more easily had a handle on teammates.

          Statistics aren’t even necessary to the argument though. You only need to look to the best driver polls – consistently, Michael Schumacher ranks above Fernando Alonso. Almost without fail. And often these are collated by people whom have been key figures in sporting journalism for years and years. So one man’s opinion cannot be trusted above a wealth of evidence to the contrary according to my blob of grey matter.

          1. @vettel1 Spot on! I wasn’t trying to stir up an argument, so I hope that didn’t seem condescending. I’ve seen some of your posts and you’ve truly got a fine blob. Actually, I was suggesting what you said; Schumi’s qualities should be considered more than just the stats. Of course, the stats were obviously a result of those talents, and the driver/journalist polls certainly outweigh Massa’s opinion as well. So, yeah, I’d have to be thick to agree with Massa – even though Alonso has some outstanding qualities.

  33. I love it how we’re always talking about who’s the most ‘complete’ driver. What does it even mean? If compared to Schumi, Alonso is definitely not as complete, as he lacks quite a few WDCs in comparison, which I imagine would be one aspect of being a great driver.

  34. It’s pretty wonderful that we have a site so full of people with so much expertise in the world of F1 that they know better than a person who has direct, first hand experience of going up against both drivers in equal machinery.

    I jest. It’s nonsense. I mean, we can all try and infer things from what he’s saying, but without some concrete evidence to back it up, I think we have to take what he’s saying at face value. And why not? His experience was Schumacher towards the end of his career at Ferrari, when things had started to turn a bit sour for him, whereas his experience of Alonso has been at the absolute height of his abilities. Alonso’s 2012 season was memserising, faultless.

    It seems pretty clear to me, and has done ever since Massa returned after his injury, that the biggest contributing factor to Massa’s decline is how comprehensively he’s been edged out by Alonso. Not just on the track, but off of it as well, within the team.

    1. ” I think we have to take what he’s saying at face value. ”

      Nonsense. As a general rule, one must never take things other people say at face value, regardless of qualifications. One must ALWAYS take the possible circumstances, reasons, motivations, biases, etc. into account. Many, MANY scams, manipulations, lies, PR stunts, and honest mistakes have been done by people of extraordinary credentials. So you core argument (“he knows better so we should believe him”) is a bunch of a nonsense.

      That’s without taking into account the huge SUBJECTIVE factor it involves making such a call. That’s why we’ve seen tens of F1 experts calling Schumacher better than Alonso, and Senna better than Schumacher, and Alonso better than Hamilton, etc etc. It doesn’t mean anyone has to start taking such claims at face value either.

      Thinking by ourselves is a beautiful thing.

  35. Who`s the most complete? That`s a difficult question to answer and in my view the answer lies in the statistics. There are just too many variables to factor in when a person weighs in on the subject, as a consequence the answer given by individuals will be flawed.

    I see a lot of people talking about qualifying-pace, ability to push in race trim and so on. Of course comparisons can be made on these subjects. I for one happen to think that Schumacher has the measure of Alonso in both departments over their career up till this point, something shown clearly by the statistics too. But I will be the first to recognize that Schumacher had lost his edge in 2006, as a matter in fact I think Schumacher lost a bit of his performance i 1999 at Silverstone but was still the major force in F1 through 2003. In 2004 Schumacher had lost his edge in my view (he was approaching 35), but he was still great and had a great car. Will the same apply to Alonso? He should still be in his prisme, but a in 2-3 years he will be at the same age as Schumacher was when he started to show signs of being over his peak. I think Alonso will experience the same as Schumacher did a couple of years from now. Even great drivers get old, it`s part of life.

    But I think it`s too simple to compare these factors without considering the rest. It has often been said some drivers can only win in good cars whereas others are good at handling bad cars. I think the comparison should start right here. Maybe some drivers focus more on and are better at making a car perfect and thus win a lot of because of this. If that is the case this definitely is a part of “being complete”, and a part many seem to ignore. Another factor that should be considered is the will and ability to “go for broke”. That`s an ability that can be both a positive and a negative when you talk about being complete. Alonso is complete in his way and secures points whenever he can by minimizing risk, but he has lost some championships because he`s been too cautious from time to time (2010?, 2012?). Schumacher on the other hand was an out and out racer and took a chance every time he had the opportunity. That lost him some championships, most noteworthy 2006. But on the balance Alonso has perhaps lost as many Championships as he`s won due to caution whereas Schumacher won a lot more Championships than he lost by going for it.

    The final factor that must be considered is the will to win. Some drivers have it in spades and can`t even imagine loosing. In my view Schumachers will to win was stronger than any other driver I`ve seen since Senna and in “modern times” perhaps Vettel. This is what defines the “winning machines” in F1 more than any other factor in my view.

  36. Schumacher 1996, driving a dog of a car, three impressive wins, including the farcical Monza race. The three on the podium that day were all outstanding, Hakkinen for his persistence, Alesi if only for his magnificent start and Schumacher for his brilliant driving – hit the tyres too, but managed to regain control. Ah me, Alonso is good, but there are others out there capable of brilliance

  37. I have been watching F1 since probably 1988/89 (6 or 7 years old) and I firmly believe Schumacher is THE best EVER.

    Norbert Haug was quoted some years ago saying “Let me tell you something about Michael Schumacher. He is a man who spends every waking hour looking for ways to crush his opponents into the ground.”

    He was a fantastic qualifier, an incredible metronomic racer, and had huge foresight into making sure he was fitter, cleverer, sharper and always ahead of the opposition.

    Just a few on his best races that spring to mind are : Barcelona 94, Monaco 95, Barcelona 96, Spa 98, Hungary 98, Monaco 99, Malaysia 99, Suzuka 00, Imola 03, Indy 2005, China 06, Brazil 06.

    I have no doubt that the Alonso of 32yrs old would have been totally destroyed by a 32 yr old Schumacher.

    The reason Massa is putting Alonso ahead of Schumacher, is because he is really suffering in form these days, and that is magnifying the true disparity between their respective talents whilst at their best.

    Massa was getting beaten by Schumacher in quali on average by around 0.5 seconds, and this was at a time when Schumacher was past his prime (racing drivers peak on average @ 32 yrs old).

    I think the driver in the current field with biggest *potential* is actually Jenson Button…if he hooks up his talent to a car the suits his perfectly – everyone else will get left behind.

    As it stands currently, I’d say Vettel is the most complete driver in F1, with Alonso a close second.

    1. Indy 2005 as one of Schumacher’s best races? Really?

      1. This should be Imola 2005, I think.

      2. lol Indy 05. How about the photo-finish of Indy 02 too?

        Seriously, you meant Indy 03?

    2. I don’t think he meant Indy ’05 – frankly that race was one to completely forget. I don’t even know why they still awarded points for it.

      Imola ’05 or Indy ’03 seem more logical, yes.

    3. I’d also rather mention Spa 1995, 1996 or 1997, over 1998.

  38. i am always a fan of ferrari’s #1 driver hence, an equal admirer of schumi and alonso (throw in kimi and massa if you will). Been following f1 since late 99.

    It is difficult to compare an apple with an orange when it comes to drivers from two different eras..schumi was more dominant in the refuelling era, alonso arguably in the tyre wars (B vs M) and ban on refuelling / DRS era. The ban on refuelling / DRS era / schumi’s 2nd comeback should not be used for comparison because imho schumi never took to the new regs (except for canada’11 heh) and should have never made a comeback. So i believe both are equally complete comparing their time in the refuelling and tyre wars era, which if you narrow it fairly, is the 03-06 period.

    If you want to insist on throwing in the ban on refuelling / DRS era, then yes i’d have to agree that alonso is more complete because he has been able to adjust through the different eras and won or came close to winning (07,10 and 12) with what would have been 3 different constructors while schumi didn’t quite master the tyre wars (and not to mention DRS) era…. having said that, if schumi had also raced through 07 to 09 going into the ban on refuelling / DRS era, i don’t know if my answer would be different.

    Btw i’ll only start thinking of mr index finger babyface as on the road to being “complete” if he moves to another team without mr newey and wins a WDC (or comes frustratingly close like nando) there.

    1. “Btw i’ll only start thinking of mr index finger babyface as on the road to being “complete” if he moves to another team without mr newey and wins a WDC (or comes frustratingly close like nando) there.”

      I don’t get this. Why should he get out of the best team, putting himself intentionally in inferior circumstances? Just so he can prove something to people who doesn’t like him anyway? Makes no sense at all.

      I think it’s about time we get over the fact that he is winning with the (at the time) best team. The same thing did Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton. Welcome to F1.

      1. The same thing did Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton. Welcome to F1

        schumi moved from benetton to ferrari to enable them to win their first WDC in 21 years

        alonso moved from renault to mclaren and almost won it for them in 07 and please fill in the blanks too for 10 and 12

        hamilton is mathematically still in the WDC for 2013 after moving from mclaren.

        they all moved from the best team and have won / come close to winning / are attempting to make the best of their current car to win another WDC. nothing wrong to desire that mr index finger does that too to prove his worth. otherwise the true 3 (coming 4) time WDC is really, mr newey.

        you are probably one who enjoys seasons like the 2011 one and the current season. if you must know, I did not enjoy the dominant seasons of 02 and 04.

        1. And you’re conveniently fogetting the quality of the cars involved. Remember, it took Schumacher 5 years at Ferrari to win a WDC, and the ’07 McLaren was a front-runner all season.
          The fact is that the driver must help develop the car. That is exactly what Vettel is doing at Red Bull.

        2. Alonso moved because he saw little future in Renault (besides the fact McLaren has much bigger flair in F1 than Renault), and he was proven right. The McLaren of 2007 was arguably the best car on the grid. It wasn’t a move to worse circumstances. Neither was the move from Renault to Ferrari, since the 2008 and 2009 Renaults were inferior to the Ferrtari. It was a move to BETTER circumstances, not worse.

          McLaren wasn’t the best team in 2012, either (that was the Red Bull). In fact, Hamilton moved because he was so unhappy by the constant reliability issues of the McLaren and plenty of other conflict. And the Mercedes 2013 is an extremely competitive car. Once more, he didn’t move “from the best team” nor to worse circumstances.

          Hell, even when Schumacher moved to Ferrari he took a lot of the technical talent with him. Pilots seek the best circumstances at any given time, why would Vettel do the contrary? Why would anybody do the contrary? You haven’t answered that.

        3. @benj-yam Vettel’s said it himself: the reason he competes in F1 is to keep the WDC Trophy in his cabinet. So he’ll remain in the seat in whine he thinks he’s most likely to win – obviously he feels that’s the Red Bull (and who would be one to criticise him for feeling that way).

        4. @benj-yam

          Btw i’ll only start thinking of mr index finger babyface as on the road to being “complete” if he moves to another team without mr newey and wins a WDC (or comes frustratingly close like nando) there.

          That argument just falls apart upon analysis.

          For a start, no current driver, including Alonso and Hamilton have won a championship for another team. Hamilton hasn’t even completed one season outside Mclaren. Yet why would anyone ignore him for 6 seasons, then suddenly use 12 races to call him great?

          So the minimum of what you’re asking is that Vettel wins races for another team, or fight for a championship with another team. To do either of these, any driver (including Schumacher, Alonso and Hamilton), need a frontrunning car. Therefore, for Vettel to “prove” himself to you, he just needs to search for another top team. And that’s where your comment unravels- it’s just nonsense to suggest that Vettel would go from quadruple champion, to suddenly unable to win races in another frontrunning car.

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