Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Yas Marina, 2013

Switching teams wouldn’t win over doubters – Vettel

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Sebastian Vettel, Red Bull, Yas Marina, 2013In the round-up: Sebastian Vettel doubts moving to another team would convince more people of his place amount F1’s greats.


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Sebastian Vettel dismisses need to leave Red Bull to prove F1 greatness (The Mirror)

“Even if I go to another team I will still have people who doubt or don’t like who I am and what I do.”

Vettel not satisfied with four titles (BBC)

“I’m ambitious and I want to win, and if there is a chance to win I want to take it.”

Business Unusual (Red Bull)

“His official duties were a press conference and a photo session but really the reason for coming was to say thank you to everybody who’s worked very hard to build the car that’s just won seven races on the bounce. Most people working for the team never go to a race. In fact many of them rarely see daylight (especially at this time of year) because the schedule of delivering new parts and improving the car every single week is flat out vicious. Seb doesn’t get to say hello during the normal course of events.”

Bernie Ecclestone kept Gribkowsky payment secret from F1 board (FT)

“Asked by Philip Marshall QC, for Constantin Medien, why he had not revealed the payments to the F1 board, Mr Ecclestone said: ‘I didn?t need to tell them. I told them I didn?t know anything about the matter…'”

Ecclestone trial: payment was ‘insurance policy’ (The Telegraph)

“‘What I paid [Gribkowsky] was a very small amount, what I call an insurance policy,’ Ecclestone told a hearing at the High Court in London, calling it ‘quite a cheap insurance policy’.”

Pirelli: Nothing wrong with F1 tyres (CNN)

“It was not because of tyres – [Fernando Alonso] wasn’t able to win for a number of reasons. If they didn’t use the tyres properly, it’s not our fault.”

Talking tyres (F1)

Pirelli motorsport director Paul Hembery: “We know that we need to make compounds more mechanically robust, but of course we can?t go to the extreme where there is no grip. It will need a delicate balance.”

Ferrari hails simulator progress (Autosport)

Pat Fry: “Pedro [de la Rosa] has made a great contribution to the efforts we have made in that area and I think things have come on quite a lot.”

Calendar chatter (Crash)

“Few expect the New Jersey event to ever take place, appealing though it is as a concept. Having been scheduled and then dropped for the past two years, it is looking ever less likely that the combination of lack of funding, piles of red tape, and necessary construction work are obstacles that will ever be overcome.”

Old dog, new tricks (Sky)

“In the days of more robust tyres, Webber was a master at maximising the braking grip and he remains slightly faster than Vettel through the high speed bends – a point that Vettel himself acknowledges. But Webber’s all-out aggressive driving style has been punished hard by the more subtle requirements of the Pirellis.”


Comment of the day

Was Adrian Newey’s claim about some teams being “lucky” the tyres suited them at the start of the season a fair point?

I?m inclined to fall in with Newey?s line of thought, I don?t think anyone knows these tyres well enough in advance to rely on anything more than luck for the early success they had. We?ve seen it each year with Pirelli, it takes the majority of teams many months after having tested and raced on them to get them under control. Yet we expect some teams were on top of them when they finalised their designs in December the previous year?

Maldonado?s win in Spain last year sums it up well enough for me, there?s a window of performance with the Pirellis that you can just stumble into and look like a genius for short periods of time, and I know they work hard, but there has to be some luck involved if you just plop straight into that window from the get go. I think that is all Adrian is saying.

From the forum

Happy birthday!

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If you want a birthday shout-out tell us when yours is by emailling me, using Twitter or adding to the list here.

On this day in F1

Ayrton Senna scored his 41st and final grand prix victory 20 years ago today.

It also marked the end of four-times world championship Alain Prost’s F1 career. Prost finished second to Senna and joined him on the podium with team mate Damon Hill in Adelaide.

Here’s the start of the race:

Image ?? Red Bull/Getty

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182 comments on “Switching teams wouldn’t win over doubters – Vettel”

  1. Jack (@jackisthestig)
    7th November 2013, 0:16

    A Vettel-Alonso straight swap for 2014 would have been fascinating. Succeding where Alonso has failed would cement him in with the all time greats.

    1. But if Seb started winning in the Ferrari over Alonso in the Red Bull, critics would start saying that now the Ferrari is the best car, that Red Bull is sabotaging Alonso, that the new Pirelli 2014 tires were made to suit Ferrari, that the FIA and the stewards are conspiring so that Vettel wins, that Ferrari is cheating, and so on. Whatever the situation is, haters will find an excuse to hate.

      1. @ironcito you gave me an idea – mid-season swap! If Vettel beats Alonso at Red Bull and then he beats him at Ferrari that will be it! To make it more interesting, Vettel will start every season with Red Bull and then change teams halfway-through the season, every year going to a worse team, until he manages to win at Caterham and Marussia.

    2. I agree. Vettel switching teams is EXACTLY what he needs to do to convince the ‘always having the best car’ doubters. He needs to prove himself in weaker machinery to be seen as one of the true greats in my opinion.

      1. As always, Torro Rosso 2008.

        1. Can’t deny those solid performances, but I would still want to see him in the position Alonso has been in the last few seasons and see if he would have done a better job.

          1. Schumacher made that move after his Benetton WDCs, but people had failed at it so he had all to gain.
            Vettel, on the other hand, would be compared to Schumacher’s success and to Alonso, and he knows that comparison would not always be fair.
            I think it’s smart for him to stay – I reckon he’ll have a challenge on his hands next year anyway (Mercedes, maybe even McLaren)

          2. I don’t know why people never doubted Senna’s ability when he won 37/41 victors and all 3 ttles with McLaren and he wanted to go to Williams which was the strongest car in 1992 and 1993.

        2. Ross Williamson
          7th November 2013, 8:05

          as always, it was a Red Bull with a better engine, not detracting from the fact that it was a brilliant race, but it’s not as though it was a Minardi…

          1. a Red Bull with a better engine

            Suggesting that Red Bull went to enormous effort to switch from Ferrari to Renault engines in order to benefit Torro Rosso is really stretching the bounds of putting down Vettel’s achievement.

            And exactly how many races had Red Bull won up to that point in time?

          2. You mean “an underperforming mid-field car with an arguably slightly better engine”.

        3. Yes, and Bourdais qualified very well in the same car (4th in the same race that Vettel won), with Bourdais eventually trounced the following year by a driver who was ultimately deemed not good enough for F1.

          No doubting the whole second half of that season was impressive, but it isn’t the single argument that proves he can drive well in other “weaker” cars. The STR3 was effectively a race-old Newey-designed RBR frame with the much better Ferrari engine installed, which was miles ahead of the other engines that year in both accelerating and at the limiter. This meant the STR3 had great top line speed despite some downforce issues, but perfect for tracks with long straights (i.e. Monza). In saying that, I think that the sum of what he has done since and including 2008, means Vettel is probably the best driver in the paddock at the moment.

        4. The 2008 toro rosso was an Adrian Newey car, and in Monza Bourdais qualified fourth. The car was very good around Monza that year, I’m not saying Vettel didn’t do the job, but the car was an Adrian Newey car, with a powerful Ferrari engine, it’s not like Vettel won in a modern Toro Rosso, it was good car.

          1. How many Adrian Newey cars won the world championship between 1999 and 2010?

          2. The STR3, which was used for the 6th to 18th race in 2008, used the same chassis as the 2008 Red Bull (RB4) – but where was Red Bull in those 13 races? I can tell you: Just 7 times, one of the cars finished in the points (once 3rd, once 4th, once 6th, once 7th and three times 8th).

            Don’t only look at Monza, Vettel also did very well at many other races with the STR3, and except for his two retirements was always miles ahead of Bourdais. He was in the points 9 times, Bourdais once.

            From the 2008 results, it seems quite clear that VET>WEB>COU/BOU.

            @jmc200 @mnmracer

          3. but where was Red Bull in those 13 races? I can tell you: Just 7 times, one of the cars finished in the points (once 3rd, once 4th, once 6th, once 7th and three times 8th).

            Nah, that can’t be right. Everyone knows that any Newey Car is a magic ticket allowing mediocre drivers to win poles, races, and titles!

      2. But he does not NEED to convince anyone in the first place!!! ;)

      3. Teaming up with Lewis or Alonso would be enough.

        No need to switch teams.

        1. The Blade Runner (@)
          7th November 2013, 15:24

          Great point.

        2. No it wouldn’t be enough. Seb is the team’s golden boy, and Lewis and Alonso would be sabotaged with inferior equipment and manufactured failures.

          Haters have an argument for everything.

        3. Alonso didn’t need to be up against a rookie to prove anything.

    3. Clearly Seb feels good where he is and he doesn’t want to move just to prove people his quality. Actually, IMHO, he wants his records to do the talking and Red Bull seems to be the place to amass titles and records. However, because we cannot predict the future accurately, we tend to build our expectations based on recent past but it’s not a guarantee that Red Bull will be the class of the field in years to come and maybe Seb himself will be pushing for a seat somewhere else.

      1. I think it is much simpler than that.
        Vettel loves racing. Period.
        He feels great with Red Bull and loves the car.
        At least for now at the age of 26, for him it’s more about the fun of racing and winning than to feel like one of the greats.
        It is not an ego thing of breaking all records, it’s having fun in the here and the now.

    4. Succeding where Alonso has failed would cement him in with the all time greats.

      And Alonso dominating in a Red Bull, with Vettel nowhere to be found, would make cement him as an all time great.

      Lets face it.. best car wins. Why do you think Vettel is perfectly happy in team Newey

    5. Vettel and Messi both have to prove their success on their own. No one can ever say ones better than the other if they are practically playing different sports, only thing we can say is that Vettel has done a remarkable job and perhaps as close to perfection as can be.

  2. Please Bernie get a little insurance against me, I’ll shut up for a tenth of what you paid Gribowski.

    1. a “cheap” $44m insurance policy?

      Ya bernie, give me an even cheaper $5m insurance policy and I’ll be happy. Thanks.

  3. Like 4 straight Driver’s Championships isn’t enough…

    1. If you succeeded at your #1 competitive goal (getting that promotion, winning a game or contest, getting the best marks in school, etc) would you just decide “oh, I’ve done enough. I’ll let someone else win, now” ?

      That 1) is ridiculously arrogant, 2) doesn’t require or allow “someone else” to beat the best and 3) immediately removes your status as being the best “right now”.

      If I were him, I’d keep racing for wins, fast laps, poles and championships until someone else was better whether it’s because I’m too old or the other person is actually better.

      1. Agree, is human nature to always want more…

      2. @neiana and right now, he’s in the best place to continue winning right now I think. I don’t see much reason to believe Red Bull won’t win at least one race next year.

    2. FlyingLobster27
      7th November 2013, 7:28

      Michael Schumacher and Valentino Rossi have both won five of their seven titles consecutively, and Sébastien Loeb even won nine rally titles on the trot. Kenneth Hansen (who is on the FIA’s Driver Commission) claimed four straight European RallyCross titles and went on to win another TEN! So no, four straight titles is usually “not enough”, and it’s not just Vettel.

  4. Well Seb, I disagree. If you move to another team, any team, and win another championship, I would place you up there with the greats.

    Right now its a little hard to say. There is no doubt that Vettel is brilliant, but half the drivers on the grid could be just as good. The margins are so tight in F1, as we know, to get to the sharp end, you have to be bloody good. As we know, its got a lot to do with being in the right place at the right time, sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesnt..and its worked out perfectly for Seb. Fernando could have been 4 or 5 times WDC by now if things played out well for him, but no, he ended up in the wrong places and the wrong times.

    1. Even if he wins in another rocketship with another team?

      1. LOL!

        I too think Seb is brilliant but I still think he races by himself pretty often and I don’t know if it’s all down to his own skills. Still, some questions always arise:

        1. Why Webber can’t match his pace?
        2. Is Seb too good for Mark Webber or it’s Mark Webber who’s just average?
        3. Could Lewis Hamilton or Fernando Alonso do the same if they were driving for Red Bull?

        1. It’s exactly these questions that lie over Seb’s head – the greats had very few questions asked of them and Seb needs to be in that position before you can classify him as “great”, at least in my eyes.

          1. the greats have very few questions asked of them now

          2. The answers are there, the problem is do you want to see them.
            Here is a link to an article from above, if you haven’t seen it.


            It answers almost all of the questions asked above. Check out this video too.


            But all this doesn’t prove anything. Everyone has a different yardstick for measuring “greatness” and if you’re not convinced by now that Vettel is a great (whatever that means) another view from an “expert” will not drastically change your mind. There will always be another question.

        2. On point number 3:
          I think those two would beat him in the same car.

          1. For a Race or two its possible but over an entire season i think only Alonso can match him. Hamilton can give him a tougher fight in Q but he was not consistent enough to beat SV.

          2. I doubt Hamilton would @jason12 – he isn’t consistent enough. Alonso would have a shot, but Vettel has been a better qualifier, so I’m not sure. I still think it would be at least two apiece if Alonso and Vettel were partnered at Red Bull – Vettel winning in 2011 and 2013.

          3. @harsha and @vettel1 I guess you’re bearing in mind that driving a balanced car and getting poles is a good way to be consistent. I see Nico and Lewis up and down this season but I think it has more to do with car than their ability to consistently post good results, Lewis was very consistent a year ago.

          4. @Jcost but for a caliber driver like Lewis had only barely 2 or 3 seasons in competitive machinery in entire his career. Compared that to SV who was consistent since Monza/Singapore 2010. Yes having a good car/best car helps you but Lewis emotional backdrop is the aspect goes directly against himself which can easily keep in the back foot.

          5. Lewis had only barely 2 or 3 Consistent seasons in Competitive machinery

    2. @jaymenon10

      Fernando could have been 4 or 5 times WDC by now if things played out well for him, but no, he ended up in the wrong places and the wrong times.

      Alonso should be ruing 2007 for that.

      Had his relationship worked with Mclaren, instead of the “blackmail”, a driver of his caliber, driving as well as he did in 2006 may well have won the 2008 title in a season riddled with errors for Hamilton (still only in his second season) and Massa. He even finished as high as 5th in a front of the midfield Renault, with 2 wins and 35 points off the title. Had he not blocked LH in Hungarian qualifying and received a 5 place grid penalty, he would have started and finished in the top 2, minimum. These points would have won him the 2007 title as well.

      My useless “ifs and buts”, would have had him as another 4 time consecutive champion on the grid. He would have shared the accolade of winning multiple championships at multiple teams with only Michael Schumacher. That those things didn’t happen, is partially Alonso’s fault in my opinion.

      1. Absolutely agree with @david-a

        Like I said, it didnt work out at Mclaren, although he has to shoulder a significant chunk of the blame, Mclaren were not completely blameless.

      2. +1. Great comment. The thing is, Vettel makes very few mistakes in a season. It is not the kind of skill that makes you love a driver, but it shouldn’t be as underestimated as it is.
        Vettel style may be a little boring. Repetitive planned precision always is.

      3. @david-a +1

        But we never know. Hamilton could have won 2007 championship if he wasn’t kept out on dead tyres in China and managed to drive the car into the pits…

        Small things change a lot of things.

      4. Alonso should be ruing 2007 for that.

        Alonso is probably rather ruing not going to Red Bull – he had offer for 2008-2010…

    3. @jaymenon10 – I couldn’t stand Lewis Hamilton in 2007 and 2008. I see him much the same way as I do Vettel at the moment: talented, but earning his place through privilege and good fortune rather than through hard work. And I felt the same way about Fernando Alonso, given the way Flavio Briatore pandered to his every whim and abused his team-mates.

      I don’t particularly like either driver right now, but nor do I particularly dislike them.

      In the case of Hamilton, my opinion changed in 2009, when McLaren built a ghastly car. And the same happened with Alonso in 2012, when Ferrari also built a stinker. In both years, Hamilton and Alonso had to rise to the challenge. They had to rally the team around them, motivate and inspire the people they worked with to push above and beyond the call of duty and lead their teams to a recovery. And the way they did that really changed my mind about them.

      There was a lot of outcry when fans started booing Vettel, with people pointing out that his results demanded respect. But there is a difference between demanding and commanding respect. When I walk into my classroom for the first time, I don’t say to my students “you will respect me”. I have to work to give them a reason to. I once had to move a group of students who were playing football too close an exam hall, but I was warned that they could be difficult. But I knew of one of them because his younger brother was in one of my (very difficult) classes, and as soon as I asked him to move on, he did so. Not because of my position as a teacher, but because I had treated his brother fairly.

      Back to the topic at hand, and I think the calls for people to respect Vettel for his results are just, but misguided. You have to be able to respect the man under the helmet before you respect him for the results he gets wearing it. For instance, how could people respect him for winning in Malaysia given what he did? People defended his actions, saying that it was what any racing driver would do, but what about the human side of it? The team had an agreement, an understanding. Vettel was part of it, but then went back on his word for personal gain. He might have been a racing driver in that moment, but I think a lot if people saw him as a spoiled child who was upset that the decision had not gone his way. How can you respect that? Compare that to Michael Schumacher in Austria back in 2002 when the first thing he did after the race was step aside to let Rubens Barrichello take the top step of the podium (the FIA did not let him do it, but it is the thought that counts). Or look at Felipe Massa in 2008, and the way he handled himself on the podium in Brazil. The first thing he did afterwards was send his brother to McLaren with a box full of Toyota shirts to make sure everyone in the team could leave the circuit safely.

      That’s the kind of thing we respect: the human side of a racing driver, the part of them that is quite separate to their talent. The perfect example of this is Heikki Kovalainen. He’s not fast. He’ll probably never win a race, much less a championship. But people like him because he’s just a nice guy.

      1. Kovalainen won 2008 Hungarian GP

      2. @prisoner-monkeys

        In both years, Hamilton and Alonso had to rise to the challenge. They had to rally the team around them, motivate and inspire the people they worked with to push above and beyond the call of duty and lead their teams to a recovery.

        Is this a suggesting that Vettel has nothing to do with the inspiration and motivation in RB?
        Maybe you should read this:
        There is more than one way to inspire and lead. And i don’t think crisis in the team is the only way to recognize good leader. Also HAM and ALO are far from the great leaders they should be this season.

      3. A well stated commentary from PM. The only thing I would disagree with, and it’s just my own personal opinion and doesn’t detract from the point of the commentary, is that MS only stepped aside and put RB on the top step because of the overwhelming negative reaction by the crowd. If RB had pulled over to let MS by two laps earlier instead of two metres from the finish line, the crowd probably would have just reacted like it was another day at the Ferrari office, and MS would have been fist pumping and leaping on the podium like every other race he won on the strength of, among other things, having a non-competing teammate by contract. ie. I lost the respect for MS of the type that PM speaks long before 02, and nothing that day detracted me from that…it only made it worse, but then when it comes to MS I’m admittedly of the type that SV speaks…nothing he did would erase from my mind 94 with his whack on DH, and 97 with his whack on JV, and comments such as I heard very early on in his career from Johnny Herbert for example who said as MS’s teammate he felt treated like a second class citizen…the opposite of the respect-garnering human side of drivers that PM speaks of.

        With SV and his ignoring of the team order, I was surprised at the support he got for doing that. Sure I get that he was showing that nothing was going to get in his way of winning ie. Championship level determination, but I think of it this way…even in recent days we are talking on this site about drivers such as MS building a team around him…huge accolades for that so his supporters say, and the supporters of any driver that does that…yet as soon as they go against the team? Some provided huge accolades for that too. I thought he owed it to the team and it’s sponsors that have helped put him where he is today, to obey that particular order even though in general I am not a big fan of team orders. I would have preferred RBR not have given the order to begin with, but they did, and personally he did not gain any respect from me for ignoring it.

        1. I’ve seen Michael Schumacher let Ed Irvine past him when Irvine was fighting for WDC against Mika Hakinen….

      4. @prisoner-monkeys
        “You have to be able to respect the man under the helmet before you respect him for the results he gets wearing it. For instance, how could people respect him for winning in Malaysia given what he did?… He might have been a racing driver in that moment, but I think a lot if people saw him as a spoiled child who was upset that the decision had not gone his way.”

        And that’s fine. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion. But you then also have to apply the same criticism to Mark Webber for disobeying orders in Silverstone 2011. But lots of hypocrites out there cheered him for calling out the team on unfair protection of Seb, and then condemned Seb for flaunting the same team orders.

      5. @prisonermonkeys

        If 2009 was all it took for you to come around to Hamilton, I’m surprised 2008 didn’t do the same thing for your stance on Alonso.

      6. I don’t agree with your first paragraph. Saying that Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso were privileged and lucky to get what they’ve got now is wrong. First they are rare talents and the important people knew about them very early in their careers. So it was just a matter of time before they got a top drive. But it was not just a luck, they had to justify the opportunity that’s been given to them, which they did with hard work and good results. There is a reason they are favored in the teams they drive for.
        Than you say that you warmed up to Hamilton and Alonso when Hamilton had a bad car in 2009 (Red Bull didn’t stared well either) and Alonso in 2012 (Red Bull didn’t start great again). For some reason you don’t contribute anything to Vettel for turning around the not so great starts into impressive finishes.

    4. This is exactly the point. Vettel doesn’t care how you rate him. He loves motor racing and wants to have fun with it. His ego is not that big, at least not yet.

      1. This is the comment that said it all that need to be said

    5. Well Seb, I disagree. If you move to another team, any team, and win another championship, I would place you up there with the greats.

      That ^

      1. Can’t be too many “greats” on your list with that criteria.

      2. Vettel done what Hamilton couldn’t with a one in lifetime oportunity and changing teams would not be making him more of a great. Records talk.

        Is pointless really cause Vettel can change teams any time, but all those alive single champions won in the best car of the grid and will need to win at least three more in a row just to almost match him.
        Vettel has kick every one so far, hope the newer young ones get the good cars next yr, cause we have seen establish drivers on the top cars are no match so far.

  5. SV might be right that a switch might still not convince his detractors…perhaps nothing will for them, but of course the point is what he would do on another team. Depending on that, he might even change some of his detractor’s minds. However, I think that as long as they have DRS for easy passing in F1 the word greatness cannot really be used anymore, or certainly not in the context of comparing to Champions of the past. As it is, different eras make comparisons difficult, but as I say I see no greatness stemming from having DRS at one’s disposal.

    1. It’s not like he often needs to use ot during races…

      1. Michael (@freelittlebirds)
        7th November 2013, 2:30



        1. Lol ya I hear you about SV rarely needing to use DRS since he is usually out front, however, this is about him switching teams, and I’m intrigued at what we would think of SV if he switched, found himself having to fight for podiums, and indeed did win another WDC without really having to pull off very many hard-fought, risky passes of the type that are memorable for years.

  6. Is DRS now a permanent thing? Or is there a chance that it will be banned in the next few years?

    1. I’d like to know this as well. It needs banning as soon as possible.

    2. @yoshif8tures – There has been nothing to suggest it will be banned or phased out. The teams like it because they can pass each other without sacrificing any aerodynamic advantage. The only thing that might change that is TERS. KERS is becoming fully integrated into the engine and drivetrain next year, and its function as a supplementary power supply is being taken by TERS. Where KERS gave drivers an extra 80bhp for six seconds per lap, TERS will give them 160bhp for thirty-three seconds per lap. It may make DRS redundant.

      If DRS does stay, then I’d like to think it would be tweaked. The effects of TERS will almost certainly demand it. I think the system has merits, but needs to be applied properly. If it were down to me, I would set a time limit on its use: once opened, it will automatically close after a certain amount of time. And when closed, it will be unavailable for another time period. I would also consider rewarding drivers for choosing not to use it, though I don’t know how this might work. I’m basing this on a proposal from a few years ago that would give KERS a strategic element: if a driver went for a lap without using KERS, the charge would be carried over to the next lap, and he would get twice as much KERS when he crossed the line.

    3. Every gimmick Bernie dreams up gets dropped eventually.

      1. Bernie didn’t come up with DRS. McLaren did. When everyone wanted the benefits of an F-duct, but the FIA weren’t happy with the way drivers had to take their hands off the wheel to operate it. So DRS was created as a solution that suited everyone. Bernie had nothing to do with it.

    4. In the rules for the next years they firmly count on DRS being there, no good news (ditching it) @yoshif8tures

    5. @yoshif8tures @david-a @hohum @bascb Sadly there’s no indication at present it’s going to be banned in the future.

      After 50 races, DRS is killing my passion for F1

      1. So for me then what will be fascinating is to see if fan reaction will see the demise of DRS. I’m making some assumptions here. Is it the case that DRS was brought in to help avoid processions, to help increase the number of passes, and to perhaps even help stem the situation of one driver running away with the Championship? ie. If DRS was a response to viewership feedback, then, and again I’m assuming most dislike DRS, perhaps viewership will fall off and F1 will have to respond accordingly. Perhaps I am just wishful thinking, but I can’t help thinking this way since I’ve been watching since 78/79, and can’t think of DRS as anything but a device that waters down the product, and therefore the greatness of it’s participants.

  7. OmarR-Pepper (@)
    7th November 2013, 1:17

    Vettel has already been in other teams. BMW, his first official practice EVER, and he topped the times against allmighty Schumacher and champion Alonso. Then, he won in another team. Toro Rosso, an underdog, going against “big dogs”. And kept momentum. He overtook Hamilton in Brazil, almost finishing his dreams. He went on to Red Bull racing, where a veteran Webber was long before him, and beat him. He finished second in the championship in 2009, remember? No Hamilton, no Barrichello in the other “Super Brawn”. It was him. He went on to win the 2010 WDC against “the best driver in the world in the best team in the world” and the other champions. And not happy with it, he has done it 3 more times. But yes, it’s always down to Newey, to the car, to the aligned stars, to Bernie, to world famine, etc, etc.

    1. @omarr-pepper

      No Hamilton, no Barrichello in the other “Super Brawn”

      The Mclaren was 2s off the pace at the start of the season if you didn’t notice, the “Super Brawn” was overtaked by the RB

      5 in the second part of the season

      He went on to win the 2010 WDC against “the best driver in the world in the best team in the world” and the other champions.

      It was Red Bull championship anyway , the reliability issues , his own mistakes, the fight with Mark Webber and Alonso’s superb comeback made the season interesting, the RB6 was a monster that year (with no DRS) only Hamilton and Alonso managed 3 poles apart from the Red Bull drivers
      Don’t accuse of questionning Vette’ls abilities but i just feel from reading your comment that Vettel didn’t enjoyed the fastest car on the grid in the last 4 and a half years

      1. Sorry for missing up with the b-quaotes

        No Hamilton, no Barrichello in the other “Super Brawn”

        The Mclaren was 2s off the pace at the start of the season if you didn’t notice, the “Super Brawn” was overtaked by the RB5 in the second part of the season

        He went on to win the 2010 WDC against “the best driver in the world in the best team in the world” and the other champions.

        It was Red Bull championship anyway , the reliability issues , his own mistakes, the fight with Mark Webber and Alonso’s superb comeback made the season interesting, the RB6 was a monster that year (with no DRS) only Hamilton and Alonso managed 3 poles apart from the Red Bull drivers
        Don’t accuse of questionning Vette’ls abilities but i just feel from reading your comment that Vettel didn’t enjoyed the fastest car on the grid in the last 4 and a half years

        1. OmarR-Pepper (@)
          7th November 2013, 2:27

          @tifoso1989 Well, as I agree with some of your facts (yes RB ended up better than Brawn, but Vettel won China, the 3rd round), you seem to “accidentally” ommit some of the information I’m posting, as you don’t mention anything about his BMW practice AND Toro Rosso victory, AND beating Mark (just in case you don’t want to accept his superiority over your superhero).

          1. @omarr-pepper

            you seem to “accidentally” ommit some of the information I’m posting, as you don’t mention anything about his BMW practice AND Toro Rosso victory, AND beating Mark

            I just comment on the information which i feel are questionnable ?? Like i said i don’t doubt Vettel abilities, in both BMW and Torro Rosso he was brilliant, The win in the 2008 italian GP was also brilliant no doubt about that but every race has its story (Olivier Panis won a race with an inferior car in Monaco 1996 so was Fisichella in Brazil 2003 just for the history), in that GP a big part of Vettel’s victory was down to right call made by Torro Rosso, Sebastian Bourdais which i struggle to call him a F1 driver qualified 4th at that GP and didn’t start the race for technical problem

            (just in case you don’t want to accept his superiority over your superhero).

            Alonso has made more brilliant stuff than what you have said in his career, it”s very hard to evoke it in one paragraph, if he is so superior then why he was pushing for Ricciardo as a teammate rather than Alonso or Kimi

          2. @omarr-pepper Red Bull only won in 2010 b/c they effectively bought the championship by subverting the Resource Restriction Agreement and seriously over-spending. In fact, Red Bull single-handedly destroyed the RRA and undermined cost-controls in F1, ensuring that the new teams Bernie lured in all felt deceived (something attested to by Graham Lowden at the FOTA fans forum in Austin last year, when he made it plain that the new teams were misled by Ecclestone when joining F1), and the sport’s owners and FOM were able to neutralize the power of FOTA and implement massively unfair commercial agreements that will eventually be the subject of anti-competitiveness complaints w/ the EU Commission…

            Yay, Red Bull.

          3. if he is so superior then why he was pushing for Ricciardo as a teammate rather than Alonso or Kimi

            Any source for that?

  8. “Few expect the New Jersey event to ever take place, appealing though it is as a concept”.
    I am one of those who don’t expect it to happen in the foreseeable at the very least. It would’ve been nice to see what they could do with it, but I think it was more a dream. It’s been like a yoyo on and off the calendars in the last 2 seasons, so I hope finally we can put the subject to bed in the next few weeks when the final calendar is released.

    1. *doesn’t

    2. Bernie spent thirty years trying to get a race in Russia. I don’t think he’s going to give up on New Jersey/New York any time soon, since it and Russia have been his pet projects.

  9. Funny people are still spouting the old “we’ll praise Seb if he wins a WDC with another team” on the 20th anniversary of the final GP victory of Ayrton Senna, all 3 of whose titles were won in the same team (McLaren), and during the period of that team’s greatest technical superiority over the rest of the field (1984 excluded). I assume none of those clamouring for Seb to win with another team to “prove his greatness” regard Senna as a “great”? Also, how many teams has Alonso won a title driving for? Or Hamilton? Or Button? Or Raikkonen? I guess, then, that according to these Seb-sceptics, there are truly no great drivers on the F1 circuit right now, at least since Michael Schumacher’s retirement.

    1. Well said. You can add Jim Clark to your list, who only won with Lotus … a Lotus that was technically superior to all others of the day (monocoque chassis).

      1. a Lotus that was technically superior to all others of the day (monocoque chassis).

        Interesting point and yet the Lotus suffered from reliability issues at times bordering on fragile. Clark had to know how to keep his equipment together to be able to finish many races. So many variables…

    2. Good point. Even great Schumi won with essentially one “team” (if you take the winning designer, strategist, technical director etc to a biggest spending team with you), what exactly was so different between his two teams, essentially just the one.

      Even Prost won his 3 on the same team (till he came back from retirement for the last one).

      This concept of winning with different teams is a bit over-weighted etc.

    3. Well don’t forget Senna had Prost in the same team (so you could say he “proved” how good he was), while Vettel has always had Webber, so I’m kind of in the middle, yes he’s very very good, but the best?

      Only time will tell, he can only do worse from now on, let’s not forget that and how he handles it, is what’s going to matter.

    4. Senna was a great driver but people usually place him above his real weight…

    5. @mda72

      Seb should have pushed for Alonso or Raikkonen as team mate. Alonso in particular would be a great team mate for him.

      1. Seb is not interested in the ego-game of being the best ever. At least not yet. He loves racing and winning, so he prefers that to a career plan establishing him amongst the greats.

        1. @magon4 if loves racing so much and his car is a “bit” better than the rest/Webber he should push for high caliber driver to be his team mate, at least he will have the chance to race someone…

          1. @jcost I guess I mean he loves driving a car fast around a circuit. Not necessarily passing people is his motivation, I think it is driving really fast.

          2. @magon4 IMHO, Seb himself would rather have tighter races than ending 20+ seconds ahead while managing his tyres. I’m not a pro but I do like to drive go-karts against my friends and I hate when there are big performance differences between the cars because it just kills the race

          3. well, guess what @jcost, the difference is not that big at all. Performance wise. Maybe 0.25 seconds a lap, probably less.
            This used to be much worse in F1.

      2. @jcost Allegedly Vettel pushed very very hard for Raikkonen. Not for reinforcing his legacy or appeasing the skeptics. He preferred him because he would have liked to have a teammate on good terms with. No more unnecessary tensions, etc. It didn’t happen. Eventually he’s just an employee and the decision wasn’t up to him.

    6. @mda72 A few things…Seb does have praise now…but it’s a level of greatness not praise that is being considered. The only reason the topic of a switch to a different team is on is that he hasn’t appeared to need greatness to win the 4 titles…ie. for many it is not the quantity, but the quality.

      Senna was a true great because of the spectacular things he did, often enough, and against other monster drivers, and amidst huge physical battles on the track as well as psychological ones on and off the track vs. teammates and other drivers. Can the same be said of Seb? Or MS?

      You try to compare to FA for only winning on one team, and I’m not even sure he is one of the true greats, but certainly LH, JB, and KR, are not…yet.

  10. Vettel is a smart kid. I am glad that he can recognize BS when he hears it. The best drivers seek out the best car/team and vice versa. It is the way it has always been and anyone who suggests otherwise is a fool.

    1. Ross Williamson
      7th November 2013, 4:04

      When did society start referring to 26 year olds as ‘kids’ ? Shouldn’t we be men by now…

  11. Michael (@freelittlebirds)
    7th November 2013, 2:29

    I disagree – if Vettel went to another team and did well, he would win over a lot of doubters! It would just be impossible to question his skills at that point.

    1. @freelittlebirds nope – his doubters will just invent another yard-stick. It’s not that he hasn’t proven himself, it’s that people don’t like him and make stuff up to devalue his accomplishments. There is no point in trying to win them over.

      1. The same things have been said about Hamilton. He only did so well because he went straight into a top team, and others would perform as well if they didn’t have to start at the bottom.

        I’m neither for nor against that argument, but it could be said about anyone. Not even the best driver in the world will win a championship in a **** car, and the worst driver on the grid would probably do better in a Red Bull.

        Note: I am not a fan of Seb. I don’t really like him, and can’t explain why. But I cannot deny he is a fantastic driver. Even in the best car on the grid, you don’t win 4 WDCs without being excellent (Just look at Webber by comparison: Same car, very good driver, but not even close).

      2. +1, the haters are often totally out of reach. Vettel is already one of the all times great – accept it, shed a tear, wipe it of and move on.

    2. I think he might win over some, some would stop liking him, others would still doubt him, not that much changes.

      Changing team to “prove” yourself – hm, sure it can be turning around a team that makes people see how good a driver is (see Schumacher), and there is an advantage when 2 top drivers go against themselves in a top car to evaluate how they do. But not because of the changing of a team, but because it puts them to the test they set themselves – i.e. are they as good as they thought they were?
      That is what I do rate in Button. He went up against Hamilton and did better than I (and a lot of others) had expected. Can Vettel have a similar situation? I think he had a tough job of it at the start of this year, and showed he can. But sure enough, if Newey builds a car that will be as competative as McLaren is this year, or that will be fast and horribly unreliable, or if Vettel does see a reason to part with Red Bull and go somewhere else, we will see how he copes.

      1. I think it would come down to the circumstances and SV’s performance surrounding said circumstances. I think if he does something truly great it will be quite obvious and fairly undeniable. I fear that with DRS in usage truly great performances may be a thing of the past. I don’t care that some passes will take place without DRS used…it’s the presence of it that put the drivers where the were to make the non- DRS pass to begin with. eg. people rued MS getting DRS’d in Montreal a few years ago on that rainy day that had him looking to podium…but they ignored the fact that MS DRS’d someone earlier on which helped put him up in the podium level placings to begin with. So for me F1 is a watered down product that makes it very hard to consider greatness as part of the equation any more…or at least certainly compared to the past.

  12. OmarR-Pepper (@)
    7th November 2013, 2:37

    Don’t accuse of questionning Vette’ls abilities but i just feel from reading your comment that Vettel didn’t enjoyed the fastest car on the grid in the last 4 and a half years

    This is said by my respected rival-in-comments @tifoso1989 (and believe me, it’s great to have someone to disagree on a regular basis :P)
    But my point comes now. Does anybody say Senna, Prost or Mansell were “lucky” to win their championships in superbeasts? No, because as Vettel, they had the best cars AND managed to extract even more from it. Mansell’s car is considered (until now) the most complete package in an F1 car ever, but I don’t hear anyone telling me he didn’t deserve his 1992 championship.

    1. @omarr-pepper

      Nigel Mansell was my first F1 hero back from the days I didn’t know much about the sport (because I was a baby) and looking back at thse days with my current knowledge I cannot deny NM was driving a spaceship against regular F1 cars. Do I think he sucks as a driver? No way! But do I think the car played a huge role? No doubt.

      1. @jcost you’d be foolish to deny he had a fantastic car, but what I’ve never understood is why it’s all the car or all the driver. Why can’t it be both? For example, the McLaren MP4/4 was an unbelievably good car – the best F1 car ever in my mind – but were Senna and Prost bad drivers as a result? Absolutely not!

        1. @vettel1 It’s both! In fact, most drivers in F1 would not perform as good as Seb in same machinery and not many could match or better him.

          The thing is, most of the time people’s opinions are intoxicated with passion. If you don’t like Seb, you will highlight the fact his car is much better and overlook his visible skills and his fans more often than not, ignore the fact his car is usually better and overrate his skills and in the end both sides are wrong.

          Being human is hard sometimes, many times passion takes over and we end up being unfair to someone.

  13. I disagree with Vettel. One of the most common claims of his critics is that he owes his success to Newey-designed cars. He could win the championship 10 times, but so long as they’re all in a Newey car, those critics will never be silenced. If he can win a championship without Newey, then he will silence many of his critics.

    1. +1

      The main difference between Vettel and Schumi is that Michael competed AGAINST Newey designed car and usually beat them in an inferior machinery (Benetton and Ferrari from ’96 to 2000).

      1. @jackysteeg @bio
        You both know that MSC never won a race without Ross Brawn in the team right? I guess his place among the all time greats just went trough the window.

        1. How many cars has Ross Brawn designed? Though I think I get what you’re trying to say anyway.

          Just to be clear, Newey cars may give an advantage, but that’s only one of many reasons for Vettel’s success ;)

        2. I don’t get your point, the only car Brawn designed was a Le Mans competing Jaguar XJR-14, in F1 he’s a well known strategy guru and organizer but with a frozen mechanical side it’s the desing (aerodynamics) office that win races nowadays, not anymore drivers.

          1. Why thinking in the box? We are talking about key figures that are very vital part of the team success.
            Ferrari took not only Schumacher, but the entire Benetton key management. Which means that basically Schumacher had his “Newey” alongside him all the time. But that didn’t make him less of a champion.

          2. I’m not thinking in the box, I’m just saying that Newey is, by far, the best F1 designer/engeneer ever and Vettel is benefitting from this more than Schumacher with Byrne, Brown & Co…not that he isn’t a worth champion but as far as I’m concerned he isn’t in the same league as Schumacher.

            I clearly remember Michael in a ehm “crappy” Ferrari dominating the field in Barcelona 1996 lapping 4 seconds faster than anyone else including Williams in conditions that today would ask the Safety Car to come out, or gaining 7 tenths of a second on Hill’s lap-time in the last sector in Monaco with the car sliding all over the place at the Rascasse and Antony Noghes corners and a tremendous car control from Michael. When I’ll see something similar coming from Vettel I’ll put him on par with Schumi, all I can see now is a car as stable as a high velocity train easily cruising victory after victory, not the kind of display I’m looking for in Formula 1 as long as I remember it…

          3. But you don’t remember Vettel dominating the field in crappy Toro Roso 2008?

            but as far as I’m concerned he isn’t in the same league as Schumacher

            – this is leading to “my opinion, your opinion” so lets agree to disagree :)

          4. Of course I remember Vettel winning in Monza in 2008, I was there cheering for him! But as someone already said before me, that car was basically a Red Bull with a better engine (Ferrari) and Vettel’s teammate, which (no offense) I hardly recognize as a Formula 1 driver, qualified in 4th position with that car ahead of Massa, Kubica, Hamilton, Alonso etc…anyway I agree to desagree :)

          5. And were was Red Bull this season? As someone else mentioned, in 2008 only Vettel was constantly in the points, the other 3 Red Bulls were nowhere to be seen. Vettel alone managed to score more points than the other 3 Red Bulls combined. I hope you recognize at least David Coulthard, Mark Webber or their combined points as a f1 driver (+Bourdais) :) So i really don’t get this “the car was basically a Red Bull” argument for 2008. It wasn’t the best time to be a Red Bull driver.

  14. The best drivers will more often than not drive the best cars. It’s a catch-22.
    If there are 6 or so “best drivers” on the grid at the moment, only one of them can win the championship and someone will have to lose (or come 2nd, depends how you look at it).

    Vettel is probably one of the greats but its been hidden from most of our view due to the superiority of the Red Bull.
    But it hasn’t just been the car, he’s worked exceptionally hard to pull the resources around him and to adapt quicker to the changes to the cars and their design. Schumacher did the same thing – enveloped the team around him.
    Alonso has tried to do it, Button got lucky with it in 2009, Hamilton does his best but doesn’t get his head down enough, Raikkonen probably doesn’t care and once Webber and Massa were beaten it was hard for them to make a stand.
    But Vettel has found a way to beat a grid full of champions consistently, not only because he has the best car, but because he knows how to use it.

    1. You’re right. He could go to Ferrari in a year they build a monster car as well. To win his doubters he needs a monster team mate in a good car. I would love to see a Senna-Prost of these days, we had a bit of it in 2007 with Alonso-Hamilton but Vettel-Webber or Hamilton-Rosberg is not as hot as Vettel-Alonso or Vettel-Hamilton.

      If has Hamilton or Alonso as team mate, even in a car 2 seconds faster than the rest, nobody will doubt his skills.

  15. I would like to see Vettel driving for another team… I dont doubt Vettel’s wotrth for a sec.. It’s just that I want to see him outside of RB in a not so competitive car…

    1. I would like to see Vettel driving for another team… […] It’s just that I want to see him outside of RB in a not so competitive car…

      That’s easy:


  16. … if there is a chance to win I want to take it.

    That reminds me a lot of when Senna famously said that as soon as a driver stops looking for a chance to take a win and settles for less, they are no longer a race car driver. Putting in the extra time to understand everything about the car, keeping his personal life under control and never letting his passion for racing diminish: I might not be Vettel’s biggest fan, but he’s certainly earned my respect and earned his place alongside the greats. He’s definitely got the same mentality of Senna and Schumacher.

    Hamilton could certainly stand to learn a thing or two from him.

    1. He’s definitely got the same mentality of Senna and Schumacher.

      With one key difference, he does not have their extreme ruthlessness, their win-at-all-cost mentality that is not worthy a true champion. F1 is a sport, not a war, and Vettel – admittedly selfish as any champion – never crossed the line. While definitely more boring than Senna, as a driver-person I rank him higher than the two S’s.

      1. At least Vettel don’t deliberately crash into others to get the results he wanted?

  17. No one ever suggested that Jim Clark needed to move from Lotus to prove his greatness. Vettel has already driven for 3 teams and won races for 2 of them, though the 2 he won races for are in the same group which is probably why people gripe about this issue.

    1. Not disagreeing with you but in the 50’s and 60’s drivers like Clark didn’t have to change teams because they drove and dominated in different series simultaneous with F1, when you are top dog in sportscars, sedan cars, F2 and F1 all at the same time it’s hard to say it’s just the car.

      1. So true. For example, would love to see current F1 drivers compete in the Indy 500. Or, maybe even win it.

      2. So you are basically agreeing that drivers can prove themselves other than through some random checklist that was invented in the last 5 years?

      3. Vettel drives in Race Of the Champions for a few years now and he had a good results there too.

  18. Have to agree with Vettel.

    Even if he moves to another team without Newey and wins a championship, the naysayers will find other reasons to discredit him. Few things that the naysayers will say are: “His team is receiving assistance from FIA”, “they have the biggest budget”, “he should have got a penalty for this particular incident, else he would not have won the championship”, “he has number 1 status in his team”.

    Vettel has been in the sport for 6 years now. Firm opinions have been formed about him already. People who like him will continue to do so. People who don’t like him will continue to do so. So no point trying to please the naysayers.

    1. How do you know? Do you have direct telepathic insight into the minds of all Vettel Naysayers?


      1. How do you know? Do you have direct telepathic insight into the minds of all Vettel Naysayers?

        I have seen how reasons have been invented to discredit Alonso, Schumacher and other drivers. Hell, I myself don’t rate Hamilton highly and I can easily invent reasons to discredit him even when he is the best driver in a season (2007,2008,2010). Now, that is not the right thing to do. But doubters do that anyways.

        So, even if Vettel moves to a different team, his doubters will still find some reason to still say that he is not a great.

        Drivers who have been in F1 for a significantly long period tend to have calcified opinions formed about them. These opinions do not change a lot. Take for example: Michael Schumacher, even though he won 5 consecutive championships from 2000 to 2004, for most Formula 1 fans, the 2 race-ending crashes of 1994 and 1997 define who Michael is.

        Same is true for Vettel. He has been in the sport for 6 whole years. Opinions about him will change only slightly.

  19. the thing is, of the doubters a lot are haters, so vettel is correct, he will join another team, and if he dominates, they will say its only the car again, and belittle his great ability. if he doesn’t dominate they will just claim they were correct. he doesn’t owe it to doubters to switch teams, he is having the time of his life, why should he bow to the insecure?

  20. I agree with Vettel. Before, he had to prove he could overtake, then he does that. Now a lot of people have suddenly found out that Vettel is less of a champion because he doesn’t meet a requirement, no other driver on the grid does. But it’s Vettel. A four time world champion, he has something to prove…..
    And really, who cares. He is not going to move team just to satisfy a bunch of people, who probably wont like him anyway.
    All dominant drivers have a fair share of detractors among the crowd. There is nothing to do about it.

    1. Won the 2010 WDC with 4 other previous World Champions.
      Won the 2011 WDC with 4 other previous World Champions.
      Won the 2012 WDC with 5 other previous World Champions.
      Won the 2011 WDC with 4 other previous World Champions.

      And he do this 4 times in a row.

      1. Won the 2013* WDC with 4 other previous World Champions.

        Well, what I am trying to say is, it is not an easy feat to beat previous World Champions consecutively.

  21. Is it just me or is Bernie royally screwed?

    1. Todd (@braketurnaccelerate)
      7th November 2013, 7:05

      Him and the other Bernie (Madoff) will be sharing a cell together.

  22. As a British tax payer, I’m increasingly annoyed that HMRC have not been taking up a case against Ecclestone and his Bambino Trust.

    He has admitted now several times that he paid a huge bribe to this banker because he felt ‘threatened’ that his tax arrangements would be revealed and that he could be liable to pay out a huge amount in unpaid tax (I’ve seen £2 billion being mentioned).

    If this isn’t an admission of tax evasion I don’t know what is – he owes the UK a huge amount of money, and our government has done nothing.

    As an F1 fan I’m equally appalled – why is this guy still anywhere near involved in a high profile global sport? What he has done over the past decade is the very definition of “bringing the sport into disrepute”, but he is still to swan around the paddock each and every race despite being knee deep in legal troubles around the world and openly admitting that he manipulated extremely important business decisions to defend his personal circumstances and wealth. This wouldn’t tolerated in any other business, and certainly in no other sport.

    Bernie Ecclestone is the rotten core of Formula 1, and someone must step in and say ‘enough is enough’ before his poor judgement damages our sport further.

    1. I fully agree. In the past eight years, the sport has rapidly expanded at a rate of one race per season to the point where the championship is bigger and stronger than ever. Viewing figures at an all time high, and … wait, I forget; what was your point?

      1. I’m speaking from a moral standpoint here, although I don’t think Formula 1 is in as healthy state as you seem to imply. Bernie has built a house of cards – God forbid if he dropped dead tomorrow, because I’m pretty sure the whole thing would fall apart.

  23. Steph (@stephanief1990)
    7th November 2013, 6:55

    Personally, I think switching teams is just one of the last ways people have of beating him over the head with a stick and saying “he isn’t great”. He went to BMW and people said he’s too young he needs to prove himself, he went and won in a STR and people said he needs to prove himself when things don’t go his way, he went to RBR and after his win at China everyone said he needs to prove he can win in the dry, he won in the dry and during 2010 everyone said he needed to prove he could stop crashing and win a championship, he’s now won 4 championships and people are saying he has to move teams to prove he’s really that good. Fangio moved teams loads and yet to this day he gets stick for the idea that he just jumped into fast cars rather than building up a team around him.

    I’m not the greatest Seb fan but I don’t really care if he moves teams. I want to see him get challenged and have a car equal to the others – although I must say when the RBR wasn’t exactly its usual monster self early in the season he was still pretty flawless albeit completely detestable at Malaysia but there you go. Sometimes I want to see drivers move but it’s mostly as I think they can look a bit trapped and stale if they stay at a team too long – like Lewis for example- but Seb seems perfectly content at Red Bull and that’s good to see. I like it when there’s good chemistry between a team and driver so I’d much rather he got someone to really push him or everyone else started building better cars.

    1. Nicely said.

      There is no better teams than a team with the synergy to win races. That’s the most important factor in a team.

      1. There are no better teams*

        Something is really wrong with my grammar today. :(

  24. When Hamilton left Mclaren last year, alot of people, including high-profile former world champions (J.Steward and others) doubted his move, and said it was too risky and he should have stayed at Mclaren. Another point of critisim Hamilton oftenly gets is about his social life, his superstar lifestyle, and the lack of friends and famility who support him at races (the reason for his 2011 season).
    Now think about it, Vettel does what Hamilton doesn’t. He stays with a team that’s been #1 for the last 4 years. He has alot of people close to him inside the team, who support him. That includes Newey, Horner, dr Marko, Rocky and besides his mom and dad visit form time to time. Now this is the perfect working environment for any driver. And what do we all want, have him move to another team? Sure, I can see why some people wish to see that. But from Vettels perspective I imagine it’s an easy choise, and he should stay right where he is. Like he rightfully said in a interview yesterday, it’s more important to be happy where you are than to please the people who don’t support you in the first place.

  25. Try to put yourself into a racing drivers shoes. He wins and wins, and people react by questioning how great he might be compared to other drivers and eras, usually right after dominant races.
    To be honest, I don’t think Vettel thinks that way at all. Of course he wants to be considered a great some day, but he will not react to the reports and debates by saying “you are all right, I’ll move to prove my worth for you”. It just doesn’t fit into his “I love racing with a great car, I love winning, I focus on the next race”.
    This might change in the future, but right now Seb doesn’t seem very worried about this kind of dicussion or debate, maybe just slightly annoyed.
    Having said that, I would love to see him drive another car sometime, just for the fun of it. And maybe for ME to prove to others how good he is.
    But I doubt he will ever see it that way. For him, a move will always be to try to have the best package, to drive a great car and to win races. That’s just who he is.

  26. If Vettel was to go to another team, they would have to use most of their budget just to seal the contract, then there are all the other expences that come with running a team and I don’t think that Vettel is one of these stupid ‘pay drivers’ and not for one second I don’t doubt his talent, he’s magnificent at what he does and the 4 straight WCC are a reward for having the best car, best team and the best car designer in the business (this being Adrian Newey) but it gets a little sus when Vettel is winning by almost a minute sometimes and it also gets a little boring because once Vettel qualifies any highter than fourth, you know he is almost bound to win, the only time he hasn’t won was at Silverstone, but it would be nice to see a change for once

  27. What you guys do NOT WANT to understand is that Vettel is done with that part of his career! What driver on this Earth would want to go to a WORSE TEAM??? Tell me! Nobody! And for what? To prove some “critics” who doubt you? It would be utterly stupid. He should make a change when he feels he wants something else, personally I would love to see him in a Ferrari.

    1. David not Coulthard (@)
      7th November 2013, 14:47

      Emerson Fittipaldi.

  28. WilliamB (@william-brierty)
    7th November 2013, 9:16

    I agree Fernando, your recent struggles have been with tyres in terms of preservation, management and warm-up, but it does derive from the balance that the tyre change created.

    I shall make something quite plain; Alonso does not legitimately come home 13th when the car balance is not to his liking. He is not a “balance driver”, such as Button, Hamilton and Vettel, of whose performance almost depend on the ability to find a decent balance in the car. In the races, when the load on the tyre is not as great, and when he is not asking the maximum from the aerodynamics, Alonso’s versatile driving style can accommodate with any waywardness in the car balance. However in qualifying, especially when there is oversteer in the car, Alonso is prone to struggle.

    Alonso’s driving style asks a lot of the rear end in qualifying. By dialing understeer into the car as his preferred qualifying balance, Alonso puts a lot of lateral load on the front end mid-corner, whilst relying on the rear to maintain adhesion as he prefers not to slide the rear to turn the car like Hamilton and Vettel do, and instead keeps the car neutral on the apex before getting a clean exit once the rear load has lessened so not to spin up the rear tyres. It is not difficult to spot how an oversteery car could be problematic with technique.

    OK, he could adopt Hamilton’s qualifying approach, which would be to purpose dial oversteer in the car, brake as late as possible, and use the passive “lift-off oversteer” coupled with an aggressive turn-in to turn the car mid-corner, before nailing the throttle as early as possible. This is something of a “classical” qualifying approach, but it does make Hamilton very hard on his rear tyres, and if Alonso can find a way of finding the qualifying balance he prefers without having to resort to an approach that will damage the tyres, then why should he change his driving style?

    Common misconception: Alonso is a “bad qualifier”. He’s not anything like a bad qualifier, it is just not his greatest strength. He just has something of specific driving style in qualifying and therefore requires a specific balance, not unlike Vettel. When Ferrari have been capable of pole (and the last time I think that was the case was Italy 2010) Alonso has delivered it, and even when they haven’t, such as Singapore ’10, Alonso has still delivered. On that basis, and following on from the other factors I’ve mentioned, to call Alonso a “bad qualifier” is an uninformed reactionary response to his current form.

    1. Having to go back 4 years to make an argument about current form, does not make a very strong argument.

      1. @mnmracer – Well, can you please be so helpful as to enlighten us with occasions since that Ferrari have capable of pole on pure pace, i.e. excluding the wet poles Alonso scored in 2012. Oh, right…there isn’t any. And anyway, it’s not an argument about current form, it’s a broader statement dispelling misguided assumption regarding Alonso’s qualifying abilities.

  29. Vettel is both right and wrong.

    Switching teams won’t win over his doubters. What will win over his doubtersis switching teams and demonstrating that he can be just as successful there as he has been at Red Bull. I am convinced that this is why people don’t particularly like him: rightly or wrongly, there is a perception that his success has had more to do with his place in the team than with natural talent. And that is something he needs to address. This is something Red Bull and Vettel have failed to address for some time – the idea that perception shapes reality. It’s not an isolated pocket of people who don’t respect them. It’s happening en masse. And I’m dumbfounded that they are resisting addressing it.

    Perhaps the reason for this discrepancy is that they are dealing in numbers when the fans are dealing in emotions. They see the number of race wins they get and titles they have to their name, and they point to it as a measure of success. And it is. But it’s a cold, logical and ultimately dispassionate way of looking at the world. On the other hand, the fans are processing emotions that rise up and boil over during the race, and that these emotions shape things in way that Rae numbers don’t and cannot account for.

    I feel this point is best illustrated with Daniil Kvyat. He is obviously talented, placing in every major championship he contested. He is the GP3 Series champion, and was able to juggle his GP3 campaign with a European Formula 3 programme, and was able to switch between the two with equal ease and success. He has also demonstrated a marked improvement in his results this year, and the trajectory implies that he could certainly make it to Formula 1 later if not sooner. All those numbers are the things Red Bull like, the things they use to measure success. But when Kvyat was announced as Vergne’s partner, it triggered a massive backlash because he isn’t Antonio Felix da Costa. People did not consider Kvyat’s talent; they immediately assumed that he got the drive because of his money and/or his nationality. It’s an unfairness to Kvyat, but understandable: da Costa is a popular, exciting driver who has been racing cars at a higher than Kvyat. And Kvyat isn’t the only driver who takes criticism like this – Sergey Sirotkin is in the same boat, with people assuming money and nationality landed him a seat at the team. Never mind that he spent most of the year racing da Costa wheel-to-wheel before mechanical retirements robbed him of strong results; perception once again shaped reality.

    It strikes me as odd that Red Bull actively resist managing their image like this, and weirder still given that they have one of the slickest public relations departments in the sport. Offsetting the damage some of their strategy calls have done won’t make them slower. It won’t make them less professional. It won’t do them any harm in any way, so why do they reject it outright? At this point, Caterham and Marussia have more personality than they do.

    After all, we keep hearing about how funny and smart and humble Vettel is, but the team seem to be going out of their way to block it out. And then they wonder why people don’t respect them.

    1. Emotions are temporary but the facts and the numbers will stay.

  30. Correct me if i am wrong, but Michal Schumacher never won a race without Ross Brawn in his team, right? At least thats what i remember, but thats more than 20 years now… i am not so sure.

    Anyway – so all this talk “Newey is god, Seb must run away from him to prove himself” is kind of BS. Vettel did exceptional well every season he had in F1 so far, with different cars, different teams, different regulations, different challenges. If you still think that he has no skill and it’s all about the car – yeah, wining in another team will never prove you anything more than what we already have. If he goes to another team with fast car? Then what – Vettel can win only with fast car?

    But there are improvements. Two years ago everyone was “Vettel can’t overtake, he can only win from pole”, i can hardly read this anywhere now. People are starting to see what Vettel is capable of and recognition is slowly coming to him. For 26 years old, who never drove for the one of the f1 icons (Ferrari, Williams, McLaren), but it’s constantly beating them (making angry 80% of the fan base) it’s not that bad.

  31. Ayrton Senna won all of his championships in a single car, does that make him “not a great” as well?

  32. @pjtierney:
    People measure Ayrton’s greatness by his performance in the Toleman 1984 (a bit like Toro Rosso 2008), by his performance with Lotus in one of the seasons where he shouldn’t be in the running for the championship, but was (fighting against Piquet, Mansell and Prost in better material), by him beating Prost in terms of speed (if not in terms of intelligence and tactics) and mostly by being the only driver to remotely attack the Williams in their era of dominance (THAT was dominance, RBR dominance in nothing compared to that).
    I don’t think that is enough to say he is number one.
    But what he did do is challenge for the championship with inferior material, something Alonso has also been able to do and Vettel hasn’t for lack of opportunity.
    But for him to actually SEEK that opportunity would be pretty poor judgement, wouldn’t it? It even would border arrogant behavior. Of the sort: “Take my winning car and I’ll take your Ferrari, say, and let’s see if I’m not better than you”.
    Again, Vettel is not about being better than others, he is about driving as fast as possible with the best possible car and winning. He likes the driving, not the “I’m better than you”.

    1. @magon4 It would also be extremely ungrateful to a team that has supported him his whole career and has giving him the best car on the grid, and the best team to boost.

      “You guys are amazing, but I’m leaving just because some people don’t think I’m the best”.

      I mean, I was disappointed by Hamilton leaving McLaren considering how much they had supported him over the years, but at least he had a reason, he didn’t felt he was getting the best possible car, and that’s a fair point. But leaving a team just because of some detractors is not.

  33. Vettel has avoided real competition from the likes of Lewis joining RBR.

    So for him to make these sort of statements is useless coz we know he’s a COWARD.

    1. @jason12 Even if that were true (something we never got proof of, but people love repeating it like it was true), so what? All drivers try to put themselves in the best possible situation, and being the undisputed number one is the best possible situation.

      Hell, even Briatore said that Raikkonen joining Ferrari wasn’t a problem only because he wasn’t as good as Vettel or Hamilton. That’s how the world works.

    2. You have missed the /sarcasm tag, don’t you?

  34. I like the assumption from some people here, that any one who thinks that the jury is still even the slightest doubt as to Vettel’s greatness is a “doubter” or completely irrational, and that the natural assumption therefore is that if Vettel were to change teams and still win, they wouldn’t accept it.

    Sure, there will be some people that take that line, but actually the majority are just stating their opinions and I think it’s a perfectly valid suggestion to say that if Vettel moved elsewhere and won a championship it would cement his legend.

    Of course it is more impressive to win 5 championships with 2 different teams than it is to win 5 championships with 1 team. Let’s equate it to tennis, just as a reference. At what point does a person become a legend? When they’ve won grand slams on different surfaces. Until they do that they’re excellent players who are specialists on one particular surface. No one is saying they are rubbish, but when people look back through history there will always be that 1 negative against their name – “sure he won 8 grand slams, but he never won on clay / grass”. For example.

    If you transpose that to Vettel’s situation, and think of constructors as surfaces, then you can currently say, Vettel is a brilliant driver, who has dominated having found his perfect marriage with Red Bull. However, if that’s all he ever does, then people can turn around and will always be able to and say- “that’s true, but he never won with another team” (on another surface)

    Is this fair criticism? Well, that’s a matter of opinion. But let’s put it another way – is there anybody out there that thinks Vettel going elsewhere and winning another championship would make him a lesser champion? No, of course not. Therefore, objectively and completely non-emotionally speaking to win 6 championships with 2 different teams, would be more impressive than winning 6 with one team. And if you were to compare two identical champions who had the exact same number of wins, championships, podiums etc, but where driver 1 had won all his championships with one team, and driver 2 had won theirs with 2 different teams. Who would be regarded as stronger? Probably driver 2.

    I think Vettel is an exceptional driver, and for me, he already warrants a top 6 or 7 in history slot, but can I honestly turn around and say that moving to another team wouldn’t potentially increase his reputation further? Nope, and that’s why he’s wrong to suggest that no one would think any more of him if he did just that.

    The question is, why would Vettel want to take a risk of going to another good team, that’s currently not got Newey and a dominant car, when he can stay where he is, and keep on winning until someone starts beating him? And that problem is not Vettel’s, it’s his competitors.

    The people to blame for Vettel’s dominance, aren’t Vettel, or Newey, or Red Bull. It’s everyone else’s fault for not doing a good enough job. Hopefully next year, they’ll step up and give RBR a proper challenge.

    1. (See comment just above yours for the type of fan many of us are referring to.)

    2. First, have you done a poll to see if the majority of the doubters will really change their mind if Vettel change the team?
      On the serious note, winning with a different team will certainly raise his profile but there is also winning against his teammates. Here he’s done good for now but people already started dismissing Ricciardo as a pupet, before even he had a chance to drive a RB car in a race.
      My point is that drivers don’t necessarily need to change a team to keep proving themselves, they need to prove themselves against their team-mates. However, that has already been denied to Vettel.

  35. What frustrates me personally about this Vettel era, is that he is trouncing the most talented grid (in my opinion) ever assembled.
    Schumacher was great, but if we are brutally honest, did he ever really have a rival who matched him? Hakkinen perhaps. But he may only have been a one-time champion if Schuey hadn’t broken his leg in 99. Montoya? His brother Ralf? These guys were quick but I dont think they were world-beaters..
    Now Vettel….He is making mince-meat out of 4 world champions, who in the last four years have each had a race-winning car, and other multiple race winners. He is phenomenal. And although I hate to admit it (being an F1 fan of 20 years) he just might be “the greatest”.

    1. the fact that he is 3 seconds ahead of 2nd place by the end of lap 1 in just about every grand prix tells you one thing: that he is in a rocket ship – I mean I mean – Vettel is just amazing ;)

  36. But Webber’s all-out aggressive driving style has been punished hard by the more subtle requirements of the Pirellis.

    Once again, it’s pretty funny that the guy with the ‘all out aggressive style’ is moving to endurance racing next year :P

  37. Even if it win over the doubters, why should he do it? It’s a dangerous mindset to make massive, life-changing decisions like changing your employer based on the opinion of the rest, especially of a rest you don’t even know. Hell, even doing minor decisions based on that would be extremely immaturer, teenage-like.

    He’s clearly very happy in Red Bull, and clearly the team adores him (which is funny considering the picture of an egomaniac with no sense of team-spirit whatsoever that his detractors try so hard to sell, but that’s a different point), why would he give up all that? It’s beyond absurd to even suggest he should do that.

    If Vettel ever decides to leave Red Bull, it has to be for himself, not because of what somebody thinks of him. May it be the flair of driving for Ferrari, or the the relationship RB goes wrong, or he simply needs a change of air, it has to be for himself.

    The whole concept of stopping doing what makes you happy because of a bunch of people thinking less of you because of it is nonsensical.

  38. Happy birthday to @Paul (who is myself, a username from a much earlier and younger F1F site).

  39. IMO with 4 WDC’s he’s proven all he needs to (to this fan at least).

    As mentioned above the haters will always hate (and continue to devalue his wins by using ever increasingly silly yard sticks).

    Seb won in a Torro Rosso and has 4 WDC’s under his belt. ’nuff said.

    1. @rcorporon hmmm very articulated use of cold hard facts and statistics, are you sure your not over analysing it?

  40. If he does change will not be to a midfield team, will be to best team available and win a few more, only chance to see Vettel in a not competitive car is next yr if RB get the rb10 wrong a la mclaren/williams but doubt it as RedBull is the richest team in formula 1

  41. but don’t you all think it is a bit coincedential that there are new gen cars coming next year, but Webber is leaving next year, he could’ve left in 2011 where he only won 1 or 2 races, or in 2010 where he was pipped at the final race by Seb, now, I’m not saying that Dan won’t succeed, for sure he will succeed, win races, fight for the championship, so will Seb seeing as he has 4 WCC under his belt already, but I find this whole thing to be a bit like Perez going to McLaren, and look what happened, his best result was 5th.

  42. Abdurahman (@)
    8th November 2013, 9:26

    Mrec 6.9 is epic! I got to ride in a few when I was younger. One day, my dream ride the 500e!

  43. What about Mclaren`s 3rd peddle – from years ago
    Where U operate the front & rear brakes independently

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