Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, Spa-Francorchamps, 2014

Raikkonen: “Many reasons” for gap to Alonso

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Fernando Alonso, Kimi Raikkonen, Ferrari, Spa-Francorchamps, 2014In the round-up: Kimi Raikkonen says there were a lot of reasons why he was so emphatically beaten by team mate Fernando Alonso.

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Kimi Raikkonen: ‘I was struggling’ (Top Gear)

“There are many reasons [for finishing so far behind Alonso],” he says with a shrug, “but the end result is always the same.”

F1 chief Bernie Ecclestone disappointed with Sebastian Vettel’s attitude (The Guardian)

“Ferrari was very disappointing, getting lost somewhere. Fernando [Alonso] got a little bit like Sebastian halfway through, so I’m a little disappointed in him, too.”

Formula One Can Race Less Than 16 Cars Say Lawyers (Forbes)

“All that F1’s boss Bernie Ecclestone needs to do is show he attempted to procure 16 cars, and used his reasonable endeavours to do so, and the sport will not be in breach of contract, even if there are less than 16 on the grid.”

Jenson Button Uncertainty is strange, says Button (BBC)

“It’s a strange situation but sometimes in life you find yourself in these situations. You just have to deal with it.”

‘Red Bull can close the gap’ (Sky)

“Adrian [Newey’s] still very much involved. He’s still very much involved in the design of next year’s car and he’s going to be around for sure.”

Merc turbo not a ‘major factor’ – Renault (ESPN)

“Asked directly if Renault has developed a similar system for 2015, head of track operations Remi Taffin said: ‘We can do that, but I will not let you know now!'”

Hamilton wants to ’emulate’ Senna in ’15 (Autosport)

“I have always wanted to emulate Ayrton, so now I have the second I am going to be working really hard to get that third one.”

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Does Vergne’s Formula E move indicate where he might be racing next year?

Andretti is big IndyCar team as well. And Vergne has already said that he is interested in IndyCar.

Maybe an indication that he is part of their racing family and the fourth driver for Andretti Autosport for next season?
@Sushant008

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On this day in F1

Three significant changes for the 2014 season were announced on this day last year. However one of them, Jean Todt’s plan for a ‘global cost cap’, soon failed amid opposition from F1’s biggest teams.

The introduction of double points for the last race of the season attracted fierce criticism from fans and has already been dropped for next season.

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  • 95 comments on “Raikkonen: “Many reasons” for gap to Alonso”

    1. Surprised to see Kimi using that many words.

      1. @kiransripathy When I see articles with really long comments from Kimi, I often wonder if its him speaking or just someone adding in a bunch of words to his usual 1-2 word responses.

        1. Kimi does not speak, he just signed what Scuderia Ferrari PR, puts in a piece of paper…
          Then, they give him a Vodka Bottle and everybody is happy!!!! :-) (Just kidding)

      2. Reasons …sounds more like Excuses to me.
        Unfortunate choice of words.
        Never expected that from Kimi.
        Will be interesting how he measures now vs Vettel….

      3. The journalists that have got to know him have indicated that he is actually a lot more affable and chatty with those he is on good terms with – his short, curt answers tend to be towards those he is less familiar with and almost a sort of defence mechanism (his way of saying “Please leave me alone” without actually saying it).

      4. Last year I told you all that Kimi’s arrival was not to beat Alonso but to make him annoyed and run to other team. Many reasons including F1 weight limit, harder tires, and better engineers may contribute to the deficit. But the biggest mistake was not to pay Kimi based on points like Lotus.

    2. Kimi Raikkonen says there were a lot of reasons why he was so emphatically beaten by team mate Fernando Alonso.

      Maybe because he drove the car faster?

      When I think of Kimi in his prime, I think of 2003 and 2005. When I think of Alonso in his prime, I think of his Ferrari years, especially 2012. When you take into consideration that Alonso and Kimi aren’t that far apart in age (less than 2 years), the obvious answer is that Kimi peaked far too soon in his career. He’s never been able to replicated the form he had in his in 2003-2005 since he left McLaren. At the time, he was only in his mid-20’s, so I don’t understand why, unlike Alonso, he was never able to continuously improve as a driver.

      “I have always wanted to emulate Ayrton, so now I have the second I am going to be working really hard to get that third one.”

      If Lewis wins another 9 races next year (which I can see him doing) and wins his 3rd championship (which I also see happening), he has matched Ayrton’s career stats in roughly a similarly lengthy career.

      1. @kingshark There was a point sometime during 2001 where the rookie Kimi replaced Hakkinen as the “Flying Finn” in F1. When we look back on 2014 at some point in the future, it’ll be plain to see that this was the year where Bottas took over that title.

        1. Completely agree. It will be even more apparent in 2015 I think as well. Ferrari will set the car up around Vettel, so Kimi will struggle even more and have just a bad season as 2014. Bottas on the other hand, will continue to get better and is going to be a regular on the podium in 2015.

        2. @kingshark If you look at the statistics again you will find Lewis has already surpassed Alonso’s stats in a lot less races so he doesn’t need next year to do that.
          Alonso – 236 races; 2 World titles, 32 wins; 22 poles; 21 fastest laps.
          Hamilton – 148 races; 2 World titles; 33 wins; 38 poles; 20 fastest laps.
          Not that we should put too much stock in stats anyway.

          1. @kingshark forget my comment I don’t know where I got Alonso from sorry. I see you meant Senna

            1. Interesting non the less!

      2. Agree with Raikkonen’s peak… I think he never really improved because he has always been a ‘natural talent’ guy, and (amateur psychology time) he had so much of it that it gave him sufficient confidence to believe he could just rely on that.

        Whereas Alonso I never thought had as much natural talent as Raikkonen, but absolutely mastered what he has so he performs consistently at a higher level.

        1. I would not make such big characterizations based on one season. You could be right or it could just be that alonso is the natural talent driver who relies on his talent instead of adjusting his own driving to suit the car… and the ferrari of 2014 just suited him really well handling wise. Or they are both pure natural talents with no extra effort and alonso totally clicked with the ’14 ferrari while kimi totally not clicked with it.

          1. It’s based on the last decade. Last season I’d say there was more to the gap between them than just current driving ability, leaning more toward the ‘type of talent’, for want of a better expression, each has and the characteristics of the car.

        2. Imho, Alonso is as much naturally talented as a Hamilton or Raikkonen. He outdrove Trulli in his first Renault season, and also 2001 was good. Only in 2004 he was slightly behind a more experienced driver.

        3. @neilosjames I heard he also refuses to do simulator work … Maybe he’s just less motivated

      3. Fernandos prime is also 2005-2006, ofc in addition to season like 2012. Do you agree? :)

        1. *sorry meant 06-07. He was good against Hamilton, remember. 4 wins, as many points, some poles…

        2. I actually think Fernando is actually peaking or near peaking now. He’s shown no evidence of ‘losing his edge’, and I think the motivation of being in a car that could actually win races in 2015, we may see a year as good as 2012 out of him.

    3. Look at Maxie bro-ing it up! ;)

    4. Chris (@tophercheese21)
      9th December 2014, 0:25

      I remember reading somewhere a few months ago that there was speculation that Alonso’s car was vastly improved compared to Kimi’s, when Alonso did a publicity event with Kimi’s car and said that it was totally undrivable.

      Could’ve been total tosh, but who knows. It sure made for an interesting debate because I for one don’t believe Kimi to be as far behind Alonso in terms of performance as 2014 represented.

      1. @tophercheese21 – Certainly the car was more aligned with Alonso in mind than Kimi all season long, whatever form that took. I don’t believe that Kimi forgot how to drive or lost his form either. A driver of his talent doesn’t go from 8 podiums including a win and 6 second place finishes in 2013 (without even completing the last two races and against the dominant Red Bull car) to what happened in 2014 without some good reasons. The car was never really set up well for his driving style. With Alonso gone, Allison having more design input with the 2015 car and hopefully some catch up with Mercedes, 2015 could be much better for Ferrari and Kimi.

        I don’t give up on good drivers easily unless they give reason to be given up on. Kimi tried his best all season long, he never gave up even though things were not going well. He didn’t complain or pout. He did say the car was not the way he or Ferrari wanted it to be and that they were trying to do better. He was professional even though there were some who were criticizing his abilities. I hope he is redeemed in 2015. I know he can still drive at a top level.

        1. Kimi and Lotus’s results last year were exaggerated by the tire problems of 2013. Not taking anything away from Kimi and his ability, but he and the Lotus did not deserve many of those podiums based on pace.

          The Lotus was extremely easy on it’s tires and found itself in podium positions only after others found themselves using the tires harder. There were also races if you remember where the Lotus was terrible because it couldn’t switch the tires on when track conditions better suited those cars that could, ie the Mercs.

          The McLaren and the Lotus were also built around Kimi, whereas the Ferrari was built around Alonso. My point is that I don’t think last years results mean anything in regards to Kimi, they were mostly luck based on the tires.

          Will he be any better in 2015? That depends on how far apart his and Vettels driving styles are and how much the car is developed with one or both in mind.

          1. That’s the same as saying that Mercedes’s results were exaggerated by the fact they had one of the most dominating cars F1 has ever seen in its entire history, and they didn’t deserve them because they didn’t have any real opposition.

            1. I think you misunderstood me. I didn’t say that lotus didn’t deserve their results, only that they wasn’t pace related.

          2. You might be referring to the early part of the season when teams were learning the tyres. It is true that the E21 was extremely easy on the them. But I think that’s credits to the team because others couldn’t do as good (like @toiago pointed out). For the 2nd half of the season, except for the mighty RB9 I don’t think any other cars have the same pace as the E21. Romain qualified many times in the top 3 and was the only one in reach of the Red Bulls late season. Kimi also showed his race craft, his overtaking. From my point of view the brought-back of Kimi into F1 is a well-deserved success for both him and the team. As a Renault fan back in 05-06 I’m really thankful that he raised the team to a higher level compared to the previous years.

            ‘There were also races if you remember where the Lotus was terrible because it couldn’t switch the tires on when track conditions better suited those cars that could, ie the Mercs. ‘

            What if someone say ‘There were also (a lot of) races if you remember where the Merc was terrible because it couldn’t switch the tires on when track conditions better suited those cars that could, ie the Lotuses and Ferraris. :p

            All eyes on JA’s Ferrari 2015 car.

            1. My point was that I highly doubt that lotus intended to be so kind on its tires. I think it was unintentional. I don’t think any of the teams quite expected the tires to be as poor as they were and that Lotus fluked their way into the box seat. When tires weren’t as much of a concern the Lotus was found wanting.

              They weren’t slow, but I think the Mercs were the faster car last year.

              I don’t disagree with your last statement either, about the Mercs being harder on tires, it’s accurate.

              My point in my original post was that the poor tires of 2013 flattered Lotus and Kimi. By this I mean that I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Kimi or Lotus has dropped off the pace as dramatically as it would appear.

              I’m sure that if things go Kimis way and he ends up with a competitive car to his liking he will do just fine. This is unlikely in the short term though.

            2. @ Terry yeah, the way those mercs destroyed everybody last year, winning the last 9 races on the tr… oh wait

            3. @MrBoerns Try reading the comment before you comment on it. I was comparing the Lotus and Mercs ONLY. I think that was pretty obvious though if you had read it, or understood it.

          3. It seems that when kimi gets his car setup to his liking and is able to use his preferred driving style, he is able to save tires to a point where he is able to drive ungodly amounts of laps whit them.Like Brazil this year and numerous occasions whit lotus.

            I would not be surprised to see Ferrari using “one stop race” tactics on numerous occasions next year. Especially when their engine is so poor they have to try something different.

      2. ..so basically we’re saying Ferrari intentionally designed a car with loose front and rear end to suit Alonso?!!
        I read many articles last year when Kimi was signed where people who had worked with both of them, including David Treymane, who all said Alonso will beat Kimi…and he did.
        Some drivers need the car setup up to a tee, while other can “wing” it and get the best out of the car. So, the great and good have placed Kimi, Jenson and Seb (after this year anyway) in the former category, while Lewis and Fred have been grouped in the latter.

        So which constitutes a better driver? It should be obvious, but it never is..is it? Everyone will have their views, but until you put all the drivers on a grid, with the same car, same set up over the course of the season, you will never know…even then, people will argue that the base setup suited one driver more than the other…so this is one question that will never answered…which is probably why it is asked at every second opportunity!

        1. “..so basically we’re saying Ferrari intentionally designed a car with loose front and rear end to suit Alonso?!!”

          I don’t think that is quite what anyone is saying. I think Ferrari designed a car with Alonso in mind and did a poor job of it. This only exaggerated the gap between Alonso and Kimi. I still believe it’s clear that Alonso is the better driver of the 2.

          1. I think Ferrari designed a car with Alonso in mind and did a poor job of it. This only exaggerated the gap between Alonso and Kimi.

            @rb26zed The corollary is that the poor job was not suited to Alonso either but he still dragged that donkey to places where it did not belong to while Kimi was left wondering what was wrong with that car.

        2. @jaymenon10 – And even that kind of series does not adequately tell who is the best driver really. Remember the IROC series? Mark Donohue won the first year, which makes sense. But over the ensuing years there was talk that certain drivers were more suited to the kinds of cars being run, or to ovals, or road tracks, or that the cars were not truly equal even though they were supposed to be, or whatever. There is no completely fair equalizer that can determine the absolute best driver ever with a totally scientific certainty. There are always variables.

          So, I guess we are left with our opinions and will forever be discussing who is best. And that’s OK. That’s why we’re all here with our own opinions discussing these things.

          In my opinion, Clark was best at nearly everything he ever drove. So that settles it. ;-)

          1. Yes it’s a great shame we don’t get to see F1 drivers consistently competing in other series against one another and against specialists.Those of us who were so fortunate to see Clark,Rindt, Stewart et.all racing must feel we are the luckiest motorsport enthusiasts,apart from diminishing time of course.

            1. Agree there. That’s why i have Jim Clarke as the best driver over Senna

          2. Pat Ruadh (@fullcoursecaution)
            9th December 2014, 10:18

            Agreed :)

      3. Alonso’s car was vastly improved compared to Kimi’s, when Alonso did a publicity event with Kimi’s car and said that it was totally undrivable.

        @tophercheese21 @bullmello Because Alonso is able to wring out the maximum from any car he is given, the car was obviously designed around him and developed only for him? Umm.. How about this? Vettel despite driving a car designed around him this year hasn’t been able to do any wonders with his car, so he is worse than Massa right?

        And btw, read this from Alonso himself acknowledging the poor front end of the F14 T

        “When you are far behind like we were this year it’s because you are missing many things, not just one. The front end was probably the most difficult.”

        http://en.espnf1.com/ferrari/motorsport/story/186171.html

        The fact is while Kimi has been (ironicaly) more vocal about the struggles with the F14T, Fernando has been more focused on getting the maximum out of that donkey of a car.

        1. The only reason Kimi has been more “vocal” as you put it about problems with the car is because he spent most of the year being asked about them due to the poor performances. Nothing ironic in that. His statements have been pretty bland and corporate on the matter, supporting the team, I am confident the team will get it right, we need to work harder etc etc

      4. @tophercheese21 I think few of us truly realize the size of the step change in regulations and the subsequent impact on the sensation of driving a F1 car: it probably equates to actually being in a different series. So whilst some drivers, like Rosberg, Ricciardo, Bottas and Massa appear to have been suited to the change, others, like Kimi, Vettel, Grosjean and probably Hulkenberg too, have had their struggles. Has Alonso been a better racing driver than Raikkonen to the extent we saw in 2014? No. Is Alonso better at extracting performance from the current spec of regulation than Raikkonen to the tune of the 2014 margin he held? Yes.

        Put simply measuring the performance of racing drivers is a virtually impossible act, especially when there are distorting factors like new regulations in the mix. What defines driver performance? His average performance level over his career? Or how he is performing now? If the later is the case, are the top three performers in 2014 [in my opinion], Alonso, Ricciardo and Hamilton (you pick the order), the best three racing drivers in the world? What about Vettel? Is a single poor season enough to deny his past form? The debate between the cumulative notion of a racing driver, and how he is performing now is certainly a vexing one.

      5. Except that, in the latter half of this year, Kimi was the one who was receiving upgraded parts for his car ahead of Alonso (which was what many took as the first definite sign that Alonso was leaving Ferrari).

        If anything, therefore, the balance of the car should have begun to shift towards a set up that favoured Kimi instead, since Ferrari intentionally reduced Alonso’s involvement in their development program in order to prevent him taking any information to their competitors.

    5. “All that F1’s boss Bernie Ecclestone needs to do is show he attempted to procure 16 cars, and used his reasonable endeavours to do so”

      How can he do that with all the criticism towards how F1 treats the smaller teams in terms of prize money, and Bernies own statements that F1 doesn’t need backmarkers? I’m not a lawyer, but it seems to me like this could hurt Bernie’s case. On the other hand, it’s Bernie, seems nothing can hurt him.

      1. @netm – You beat me to roughly the same point, but it is a good point. Likely Bernie doesn’t stop to consider how what flies out of his mouth might even hurt his own case.

      2. Look at who wrote that article @netm, and it tells you a lot about the purpose. And I fully agree with you and @bullmello in that any lawyer for the FIA would have an easy job showing how Bernie did more or less the oposite of endeavouring to have more cars in the last 2 years.

      3. All Bernie has to do is show that he went to top teams and asked them nicely to run a third car. The end.

      4. @netm Doesn’t matter – if he gets in trouble, he’ll just buy his way out of it anyway.

      5. Exactly what I was going to say. You have put this perfectly.

    6. “All that F1’s boss Bernie Ecclestone needs to do is show he attempted to procure 16 cars, and used his reasonable endeavours to do so…”

      Ha! Does accusing lesser teams of going around with begging bowls count towards reasonable endeavours?

      And, Bernie is disappointed with Vettel and Alonso? How disappointed with Bernie is most of the F1 world? Let us count the ways…

    7. “Bernie disappointed with Vettel and Alonso”.

      Lets say if Bernie performed at his job like Vettel did this year, we’d have a full grid of cars every race (full as in 26 cars, of course). And probably with more than 13 teams in the Constructor Championship.

      And if he performed like Alonso, well, the teams would probably make their cars with gold and diamonds.

      1. LOL!!!! That gave me a huge laugh!! Thanks!

    8. Bernie disappointed with Vettel…..
      More drivel from Bernie.a
      I’m not a Vettel fan but of course he was downtrodden. A four time WDC getting whipped by a newbie must be humiliating. But he had more than his share of bad luck and did improve as the season went on. I think Vettel was offended when Marko publicly said he wanted Vettel to up his game as if he wasn’t trying. At that point I think Vettel realized the honeymoon was over.
      To insinuate Alonso threw in the towel in any way, shape or form is even more ludicrous and proves once again Bernie likes to be the center of attention and is but for the wrong reasons. Please leave!!

    9. The more Kimi talks the more pressure he is putting himself under for next year. I wonder if nexts years car will better suit Seb or Kimi. I think Ferrari will want to keep Seb happy and set it up more to his liking. Anyone know if Seb and Kimi like the same handling characteristics? It’s going to be interesting watching them battle.

      1. Luckily he doesn’t talk much. I don’t buy these press releases are him until someone shows me a video of him saying the words.

      2. I don’t believe that Raikkonen and Vettel like the same handling characteristics from the car. Vettel tends to like a car with a good rear-end so that he can throw the car into the corner, knowing it will still stick despite lacking front downforce, before accelerating off the corner faster. Kimi, on the other hand, likes a very responsive front-end. He likes to slide the car into the corner, giving great apex speed, but compromising the exit. So, yeah, there you go…

    10. So now we now we know why “It was fair”, all due to MB-AMG allowing their drivers race, without which the title would have been ” It was really lousy”, good one Bernie ! you certainly know how to promote F1 and help the teams attract sponsors.

      1. That was him doing all he can to keep a grid of at least 16 cars, I guess @hohum (16 but not a single more maybe?)

    11. Without a lot of notice the FIA couldn’t run and broadcast the show without FOM, so it’s not like the contract matters for next year anyway…

    12. In my opinion, Jenson must retire for good from Formula 1. A driver of his stature should not be subjected to so much of waiting which goes beyond the act of professionalism. I reckon like some of you that the problems at McLaren may not be regarding the drivers solely, however it’s a better option for Jenson to walk away from the sport rather than the sport walking away from him. At least he can say that he got retired rather than got fired.

      1. Walking away from a job isn’t wise if A) you don’t have another job to walk into and B) the other option isn’t as good as the job you’re walking out of.

      2. @neelv27 While I don’t agree for the reasons @dragoll gives, I do think it would be fair to allow him to break the news to his fans, like Ferrari did when they replaced Massa.

    13. F1 probably can race 14 cars (or even 6 cars as the 2005 USA Grand Prix proved) but for how long? Even if “the sport will not be in breach of contract”, it is easy to imagine how it would affect the already shrinking TV audience and the number of spectators in the grandstands. So I do not think it is a significant fact, what matters is how the authorities are planning to “keep up appearances”, that is, if F1 is going to see new teams or customer cars / three-car teams soon.

      In my opinion, this a classic example of poor journalism. Instead of telling the readers what really matters, the author has written many paragraphs basically explaining the difference between an obligation and an “absolute obligation” and why Joe Saward is wrong. I do not care about Christian Sylt’s “rivalry” with Joe Saward, I want to read real F1 news / analysis.

    14. “Bernie disappointed with Vettel and Alonso”
      I’ve been disappointed with Bernie for more than 20 years and it isn’t exactly decreasing with time.

      1. @palle the problem is that if Bernie get’s disappointed about vettel or alonso, he can do something about it. But if we get disappointed by bernie, there’s nothing we can do about it :D

        1. @matiascasali there is nothing bernie can do about vet and alo as well, other than moaning to press :P

          1. @alonso_fan how sure can you be of that? he was the mastermind of Schumacher going to Ferrari, and i have no doubts about his involvement in the Vettel-Ferrari thing.

            1. @matiascasali those days of bernie influencing racing at team level are long over. Whole vettel-ferrari thing started coz alonso walked away.

    15. I don’t mind LH, I really don’t…except when he tries to convince himself and others that he is emulating Senna. Sorry mate but imho making up the numbers to match Senna’s has nothing to do with Senna the man and the driver and the impact he had on F1. Senna was special. Matching his numbers does not by default turn one into ‘a Senna’. So please stop trying to convince us you are ‘just like Senna.’ You’re not.

        1. Likewise.

      1. Oh dear @robbie has Lewis been saying he’s as good as Senna again? ;)

        Actually I think Lewis is some way ahead of Ayrton at 29. In results as well as in how he won them.

        1. @lockup For me it is much more about intangibles such as the mystique of the man…his way of thinking…his complexities…etc…eg. the out of body experience he described as happening to him at Monaco. For me Senna was a genius. LH is ‘merely’ a WDC level racer by comparison. I don’t sense from anything that has been said of LH, nor anything he has said, anything anywhere near these kinds of otherworldly intangibles. He’s being given legendary status already, by some, mainly due to his numbers as they stack up against other British F1 icons, but I think most would agree Senna was on a different level altogether. Gilles Villeneuve was on a different level too, considered legendary without having won a WDC, due to his hard charging ways that were revered by those inside and outside F1…Enzo Ferrari considering him like a son. LH couldn’t hold a candle to either Senna or Villeneuve. He’s got talent, but not the ‘X-Factor’ of these icons imho. Nor has LH needed the bravery these two icons I have cited did. Different times, and LH has had it way more easy in his career.

          1. Hamilton will be a legend though, Hamilton is also better than Gilles.

          2. GV was amazing @robbie, but I reckon a lot of Hamilton’s support has transferred from one awesome racer to the other. Hamilton is hugely more consistent and effective of course, but it’s a different era.

            Senna is so hyped it’s ridiculous. IMHO of course :) He was super quick but also deeply up himself. Made a lot of mistakes too.

            As for LH not having X-Factor, you cannot be serious. Nor for having it easy – you know Senna had money, right?

            You have to allow for Lewis being only 29, and alive. At that age Senna had just achieved his first wdc, in the best car. Lewis is being quite modest saying he aspires merely to emulate Senna’s 3 wdcs.

            1. @lockup Just a couple of remarks…I certainly believe LH has X-Factor galore amongst today’s grid, but not vs. Senna or GV. As to ‘having it easy’ I didn’t mean in terms of upbringing, but in terms of the cars they drove then vs. now, and many other things too numerous to mention but which I hinted at in terms of how dangerous things were back then vs. now, and therefore the bravery factor and the psychological factor. Eg. AS and GV didn’t have DRS, paved runoffs, etc etc. We agree, different era and today’s era has us talking about conserving tires, brakes, engines overwhelmingly, and too much help the drivers get from radio comm etc, just to contrast. And your last paragraph again hints at numbers…for me it is not about amassing numbers, nor about their age number. If it were, then obviously MS would be considered hands down greatest all-time and yet that is highly debatable by many. Or even SV would already be considered one of the Greats and Legendary because of the number 4 in terms of WDCs, yet that would be debated by many as well. I don’t put SV above LH in terms of my own personal x-Factor type scale either, and that’s with him having more numbers than LH.

            2. @lockup you cannot be serious right? Senna started his first 5 years in F1 with Toleman and a Lotus in severe decline….and you want to compare that to a McLaren groomed since he was a child Hamilton who jumped straight into a title contender???? please

            3. Well all Lewis is saying @robbie is he’d like to emulate his hero and yours in winning a third title.

              Personally I don’t think it’s possible to compare across eras. I mean, if you put Senna and Lewis on the grid as clones using their DNA what would you get? Then what would it mean, without their families and upbringing as factors?

              So I judge each within their era. Lewis is inspired by Senna, I don’t think that need compete with your view of them. Tho I didn’t really like Senna, I expect you’ve gathered lol. I thought he was self-obsessed and a bit mad.

      2. @robbie

        It is not Lewis Hamilton’s fault he is not dead. That is no dig at Senna either(rip you legend) i just think alot of Senna’s greatness is because he still had so much more to give. Prost is a 4xWC hardly ever talked about. Hamilton will be a legend just like Senna that is a fact. Hamilton will be top 5 in wins and poles when it is all said and done. There is nothing wrong with Hamilton doing what Senna does, im sure like you Hamilton is not saying it because he thinks he is better, that is just his hero.

        1. @lockup @dan Fair comments, both. After all it is pretty subjective and I’m taking some license in assuming LH’s intentions, but in fairness to me, he does want to emulate Senna… not Prost nor MS nor any other multi winner. Fair enough…that was his hero and I get that. Whether he thinks he IS Senna or not, you know my opinion.

          If it is not possible to compare different eras, then certainly that thinking enforces the point that LH is no AS. I just felt the yearning to post on it, which is an indication of how special I consider Senna to be. For me it was a more barebones and rugged time, so much less ‘refined’ or complex or however you want to word it, than how F1 is now, so much more in the hands of the driver. I’m not convinced that had to be squelched in the name of safety. Being unable to compare eras does not mean current equals better. That is probably the root for me in starting this post.

          1. Well @robbie it seems to me you are indeed taking some licence in thinking Hamilton thinks he IS Senna. Where’s your evidence for that? All he says is he aspires to emulate him and is inspired by his example.

            And, after all, that presupposes that he sees himself as lesser.

            I don’t get why Senna is allowed to be insanely competitive, egocentric, self-obsessed and all the rest of it, while Hamilton for some reason is supposed to be humble and not have aspirations to be that same thing, that you admire.

            And btw saying ‘LH is no AS’ is a comparison ;) But if you must compare, wait till Lewis is 34, or compare with Senna at 29.

            1. @lockup As I have admitted, I am taking license, and I have no evidence just as you have no evidence to know exactly what LH thinks. Just saying that if by any chance he thinks that hitting the number 3 in terms of WDCs makes him as good as Senna, I disagree.

              For me Senna was ‘allowed’ to be…insert whatever aspirations or insults whoever is opining on him may…because he was Senna. He backed up who he was with genius on the track, and was a profound, deeply religious man. Hamilton is not. Not a genius, nor profound, imho. I don’t have to wait until LH is 34 and has amassed more numbers. I already know he will never be like Senna, whether that is a good thing or bad, depending on one’s opinion of Senna. That is my opinion. If it is as you suggest and LH should be allowed to have aspirations to ‘be the same thing’ …again…he is not…we would have already seen it. Making up the numbers is not making him ‘the same.’

            2. How was Senna profound @robbie? He drove round in circles for a living.

            3. @lockup A comment like that deserves no response other than it seems beneath you, such is it’s ridiculousness. Perhaps read something of the man.

            4. Hehe I think I caught you with a momentary sense of humour failure there @robbie but still, seriously, if he was profound why was he fulfilled by driving a car round and round in circles trying desperately to shave a hundredth of a second off his time?

              In truth he was a sporting star like the Williams sisters or Tiger Woods or any of the others, obsessed with a fundamentally narrow, self-centred activity in search of status.

              I watched him at the time and I’ve seen and read various things since. I reckon what passed for profound was him mooching round thinking intensely about, er, Ayrton Senna :)

              Sometimes his driving was terrific, the rest is myth and hype afaic. And sometimes his driving was poor.

              I don’t see any merit in religiousness, either for Senna or for Hamilton. It’s just superstition and the opposite of profound.

              Anyway Lewis is inspired by Senna so there it is. All it is. But I’m grateful for the differences, personally.

      3. Funny – all this talk about Hamilton when he isn’t even the best current driver according to his peers and former greats. I guess barely beating an average team mate in a car far faster than the rest of the field is grounds for comparing oneself to Senna. Lewis, the self annointed one.

        1. @lockup Running low on time at the moment but I’ll just say that because you see no merit in religiousness, and consider it superstition and the opposite of profound, does not mean by default Senna should have felt the same, and therefore was not a profound and deep thinker.

          1. Okay @robbie I’ll be around later. I know some clever people have faith. Still, in general it’s belief independent of evidence, a copout from analysing reality and a lazy option or an excuse for tribalism.

            What did Senna think deeply about? I know Frank Williams said he was extremely intelligent but I never saw any detail about it. Tbh I thought he was just moody and introspective and needed Berger to show him how to have a life. I can see how he had tremendous focus, but then so does you-know-who and Fernando for example.

            1. @lockup Don’t get me wrong, I am not a religious person myself, but we both can agree many people have a deep religious conviction, and that is their way, their business, and I can respect that, even if I can’t place myself there. I think one of the incidents that struck me as defining Senna was when he described a perfect qualifying lap at Monaco that had him having an out-of-body experience like he was hovering over the car watching himself do the lap.

              I think right now you are bringing Senna down to be nothing special compared to other athletes, because that is your take, and you are asking me to put into words why he was more than that. It goes back to that intangible factor. Why is he touted by many as the greatest racer ever? Why is he given God-like status particularly in Brazil? It’s intangible and goes beyond just being an incredible driver. LH is an incredible driver, but nothing about him has struck me in the heart and in the gut like Senna did. When I watched Senna I believed I was watching an artist and a genius. I simply do not get that same feeling from LH. I have absolutely no problem with LH admiring Senna, and being inspired by him. Why wouldn’t he? Millions have. But again, he is nothing Senna-like imho, and bettering Senna’s numbers will never change that for me.

            2. Okay well we are dangerously close to agreeing over some things @robbie :) My main issue was with Lewis being held to be at fault for his aspiration and the suggestion that he thinks he IS Senna. I’m more than happy for him to be seen as different.

              When I watch Senna’s old races I see a lot of mistakes. In that series on McLaren I see him walking off so his RE has to run after him asking about settings. I see him flouncing out of a driver’s meeting over nothing. Confronting Schumi because Schumi hadn’t ceded a corner but held his line. I see his crew mocking him behind his back.

              He was a terrific driver but I think the myth grew with his self-belief and his untimely death. I don’t see anything profound and the superstition is a sign of not thinking afaic.

              I view the Monaco spiritual thing as just an extreme degree of concentration that took over some ordinary levels of consciousness, but he presented it in his self-absorbed guru style and that gave it a life of its own.

              So I never liked Senna whereas for some reason, despite his multitude of alienating behaviours, I do like Hamilton. They are both extraordinary in their own way of course.

              But here we are in the now and Lewis is only 29, and in the best team. Everyone is going to have to get used to him having a LOT of status.

    16. For sure there are many reasons behind why Kimi was behind Alonso. One of them is that he drove like a lazy ar*e the whole season.

    17. Don’t forget the gap would be smaller if he hadn’t got the puncture in Monaco. Not much though..

    18. Kimi says strange things about the Ferrari recently. I think those sentences are not Kimi’s ones.

      1. I think it’s been that way most of the year, with his less than stellar year the old 1 word answers are back so the Ferrari PR dept. has to ‘fill them out’ a little (lot)

    19. I think it’s been that way most of the year, with his less than stellar year the old 1 word answers are back so the Ferrari PR dept. has to ‘fill them out’ a little (lot)

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