In the round-up: Following Christian Horner’s suggestion of move to twin turbo V6s or a return to V8s, now Bernie Ecclestone raises the possibility of a return to V10 engines last used almost a decade ago.
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Your daily digest of F1 news, views, features and more.
Ecclestone scheming to bring in first lady of F1 (The Telegraph)
“Talk then turned to other subjects, including his fear that Mercedes will walk away with the championship again for another two years, and his plan to rectify it by forcing through a change to a new engine – perhaps a normally-aspirated V10, with as much as 1,000 horsepower – at a meeting of the all-powerful Strategy Group next week.”
Bahrain can veto Qatar F1 race, says Ecclestone (Reuters)
“I made a deal with the people in Bahrain and they said, ‘If we are going to be something new in this area, which we are, will you give us a guarantee you won’t put another race on in the area, in the Gulf?’.”
Ecclestone vows to maintain iron grip on Formula One (FT, registration required)
“Since people have been breaking my balls on this social media, I’ve been looking at this tweeting thing and I can’t see anything on there except [Mercedes team principal] Toto Wolff and one of my daughters. And I thought, what does it ever do? There’s a few idiots who put things on there. How does it ever help Formula One?”
Bernie Ecclestone tips female F1 executive to take over at the top (The Guardian)
“In reference to [Sacha] Woodward-Hill he said: ‘The people [at the F1 Group] would be able to easily follow through what we have put in place. Perhaps if I controlled the board I would probably say it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a woman being the chief executive.'”
Felipe Nasr Q&A: I’m ready to seize my chance (F1)
“Of course I wanted to stay [at Williams] – but they have their commitment with Felipe (Massa) and Valtteri (Bottas) so I had to move on. I could not lose the momentum – I had to make the next step.”
Tweets
Arrived at McLaren. Or at least 'Keith Valentine' from 'F1 Fantastic' has. Close enough… #F1
— F1 Fanatic (@f1fanatic_co_uk) December 11, 2014
Just woken up, what's going on?!
— Jenson Button (@JensonButton) December 11, 2014
My mates Billy Button and the Fonz team up next year. Great driver line up. Now plenty of pressure on Woking to roll out a weapon. 🚙💨.🇬🇧🇯🇵.
— Mark Webber (@AussieGrit) December 11, 2014
I will still be part of the McLaren-Honda family and my main focus next year will be winning the GP2 championship! (2/2)
— Stoffel Vandoorne (@svandoorne) December 11, 2014
Alonso in good humour. Said he was going to explain how he and Dennis had meetings in hotel rooms, "but it would sound very bad!" #F1
— F1 Fanatic (@f1fanatic_co_uk) December 11, 2014
Funny thing is, Ron hates beards 👹
— Martin Brundle (@MBrundleF1) December 11, 2014
Alonso's expression of regret re 2007 today a reminder of when he left in 2007. Turned to McLaren office in Brazil '07 and said cont'd…
— Andrew Benson (@andrewbensonf1) December 11, 2014
.. "Thnks for ev/thing. Know where I screwed it up. Hungary. I know what I did wrong. I lost it. That's my regret. Otherwise wd be champion"
— Andrew Benson (@andrewbensonf1) December 11, 2014
Great to be the sole Fleet St F1 correspondent at @JensonButton and @alo_oficial unveiling today. ✊🏁
— Ben Hunt (@benjhunt) December 11, 2014
Coincidental Bernie picked today to host his post-season review with the Fleet St media at the same time as McLaren's driver announcement
— Formula Money (@FormulaMoney) December 11, 2014
- Find more official F1 accounts to follow in the F1 Twitter Directory
Comment of the day
There’ll be no repeat of 2007 between Fernando Alonso and McLaren this year, @Bullfrog reckons:
A source close to a Ferrari tells me it’s all different this time. Alonso offered to bring detailed designs of the 2014 Ferrari with him, but McLaren said “no thanks”.
@Bullfrog
From the forum
Snapshot
Former Renault team mates Alonso and Button have been reunited at McLaren for 2015. Alonso was the team’s test driver in 2002 but – as Button recalled during yesterday’s McLaren press event – he replaced Button in the race team alongside Jarno Trulli the following year.
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday to Andrew Hey, Christian Andrade and Rigi!
If you want a birthday shout-out tell us when yours is via the contact form or adding to the list here.
On this day in F1
Fifty years ago today the non-championship Rand Grand Prix, held at the Kyalami track in South Africa, was won by Graham Hill driving a Brabham BT11. Jackie Stewart, who was yet to make his world championship debut, took pole position but the driveshaft on his Lotus 33 failed at the start.
FullSpe3d (@dryyoshi)
12th December 2014, 0:02
Wow, I actually agree with Ecclestone for once!
Nathan (@il-ferrarista)
12th December 2014, 2:32
GOD, please, let us have V10s – even hybrid V10s – with 1000bhp
Michel S. (@hircus)
12th December 2014, 3:14
I’d stop watching F1 if they pull this knee-jerk regulation change just to stop Mercedes. What they ought to have done is to put a cap on how much engines can be sold for, put some limits (total energy storage and maximum energy flow) and then free up engine designers to use whatever design they want. Maybe require some forms of energy recovery, but that’s it.
To prevent an engine war followed by engine makers leaving en masse, stipulate that engine manufacturers are obliged to commit to a certain number of years of availability to any team, subject to a notice period, with the penalty that they forfeit the IP to the engine to a FIA-appointed engine builder so that an alternative production line can be set up if necessary.
hobo (@hobo)
12th December 2014, 14:59
@hircus – This, exactly. Engine equalization issues aside, it would free up manufacturers to produce what they want and stay in F1 and remain competitive. If Renault want a 4-cylinder with turbos, great. Ferrari can do a v12, v10, or v8. BMW could return with their inline-6, Porsche with flat-6, Merc with v8 or v6, McLaren could produce their own engines, Honda could do 4 or 6.
Engine manufacturers could stick to their bread and butter designs, whatever those are, to keep costs somewhat down. They could produce engines that speak to their larger company message regardless of whether that happens to be “eco-” or “POWER!!” And the customer teams would have options.
Neil Reid (@internetguy)
12th December 2014, 20:13
Amen hobo. The more the ruling body restricts the formula, the more artificial the whole show becomes. I know some people care about energy usage, but racing has never been about that for me- ever. The current engine package is simply a joke from my seat- it’s halfway to Formula E.
Give me roaring V-10’s and screaming V-12’s any day over the current neutered power train contrivances. Even if the new engines are faster- they violate the supreme rule of racing equipment- make it breath taking awesome. The sound track counts.
Mark in Florida
13th December 2014, 3:40
That’s a great idea WEC already does that. That’s why the big manufacturers are there already. No one would ever agree to the weight penalties or power factoring in F1. They could set max horsepower limits as the rule, but Mercedes would just make more powerful ers like Porsche and still win. Bernie would then have a fatal heart attack.
BasCB (@bascb)
12th December 2014, 18:49
exactly @hircus.
rsp123 (@rsp123)
12th December 2014, 19:15
Spot on. Let people spend fortunes *developing* technologies if they want to. The way to cool F1 spending is to put a cap on what manufacturers can *charge* for components.
Of course, this does mean that a manufacturer who wants to win at any cost can do so by taking a hit that their rivals cannot afford, so the way to level the field is to allow competitors who use a “standard” (commercial, Cosworth?) engine some advantages in other areas, like aero or fuel.
This sort of rule could mean more cars on the grid.
megatron
12th December 2014, 19:50
Yes absolutely agree on that.
megatron
12th December 2014, 19:51
What Michel S. said of course.
James Devon (@tata)
12th December 2014, 4:22
Which of his many bewidering statements do you agree with?
Is it this one which is mind-boggling yet hilarious?
“Since people have been breaking my balls on this social media, I’ve been looking at this tweeting thing and I can’t see anything on there except [Mercedes team principal] Toto Wolff and one of my daughters. And I thought, what does it ever do? There’s a few idiots who put things on there. How does it ever help Formula One?”
LOL. I had a good laugh after reading that.
Remind me again what Bernie is still doing managing a hi-tech and 21st century billion dollar business with a global audience many of whose lives are intertwined with the social media. I mean, he himself mentioned Toto Wolff ( CEO of a multi million dollar racing and technology company ) using “this social media” and “this twitter thing”.
Oh Bernie! You are indeed the gift that never stops…
ruliemaulana (@ruliemaulana)
12th December 2014, 10:23
Hahaha! Quote of the year!
BJ (@beejis60)
12th December 2014, 5:56
@hircus @dryyoshi It’s obvious the old man is just stirring the pot for F1 attention until March.
JCost (@jcost)
12th December 2014, 7:54
What’s next, go back to black & white TV?
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 10:38
It would be a dream for me if F1 went back to V10’s. It is, after all, supposed to be ‘entertainment’, if it is super important to watch something ‘road-relevant’, there are other formulas for that. To me, F1 should be ‘road-irrelevent’, we should look on in absolute awe, and listen in awe too. The V10’s were so impressive they brought tears to the eyes. Believe me, that does NOT happen with the current cars!
Also, it certainly does not have to be a backwards step, for the green brigade. They could run with a fuel allowance, if that’s what people want, and be forced to be as efficient as they are now, but without having to lug around all the extra weight.
matt90 (@matt90)
12th December 2014, 19:03
If they forced them to be as efficient as the current engines it would be constant lift and coast with painfully slow lap times.
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 20:00
@matt90
I am not convinced that would be the case at all. They could make very compact, lightweight V10 engines, and of course they would not have to lug around the heavy hybrid components. I suspect they could be at least as efficient as the current cars, and we all get dramatic, impressive F1 back. What’s not to love about that?
Patrickl (@patrickl)
13th December 2014, 9:48
Normally aspirated engines are wasteful. There is no way they can get those as efficient as turbo’s. So yes, they would have to lift and coast like crazy.
megatron
12th December 2014, 19:54
“Yeah it also would be a dream for me if Eastern Germany transforms into the GDR again.” That would be the same idea.
DaveD (@daved)
12th December 2014, 21:02
But that’s the problem with that aspect of “entertainment”. Some of us do NOT like the loud noise and have stayed away from races because of it. I started going to them again this year for the very reason that I could enjoy the race without a headache.
Just an opinion, but mine is just as valid as anyone else’s and the people around me at the races I attended couldn’t have cared less about the noise. We had a blast.
Arnold Triyudho Wardono (@ernietheracefan)
12th December 2014, 15:30
4:3 aspect ratio SD, no race onboard nor radio
jKorz
12th December 2014, 11:05
I can’t wait for this man to die !!!
FERNANDO123 (@fernando123)
12th December 2014, 17:34
best comment yet
DaveD (@daved)
12th December 2014, 21:03
Yes, usually I hate to be so mean spirited, but he DID ask for a casket with the lid nailed shut.
I’m just saying :)
anon
12th December 2014, 18:53
Events like this seem to suggest that, for all the mockery, criticism and abuse Bernie gets, he still knows how to get people to eat out of the palm of his hand just by throwing out a few carefully calculated comments.
Let’s be blunt, Bernie’s proposal for the old normally aspirated engines has nothing to do with appealing to the fans. This smacks far more of Ferrari and Red Bull leaning heavily on Bernie to force Mercedes to either yield on development of the turbo engines or to force the sport back to a rule set where they had an advantage.
The fact that Bernie’s proposal would be for 2016, which coincides exactly with the threats Ferrari and Red Bull have made about forcing through changes on the engine regulations for 2016 through the Strategy Group, is unlikely to be a coincidence.
Bernie is simply using this as an opportunity to play the fans for fools and pretend that he is appeasing them, all the while whilst really screwing them over by forcing a return to the old status quo.
Geeyore
13th December 2014, 13:13
F1 must rescind the mandatory ERS-H and other restrictions which make the cars sound like amplified lawnmowers. I went to my first F1 event this year, and the intermediary races which included Minis and Ferraris were all louder and more impressive than the Formula cars. I guess the only thing that speaks to FIA and F1 is money, so I for one have decided to cancel my hotel arrangements for 2015 and of course have decided not to attend next year’s event. WEC and USCC (here in the States) are now greatly superior spectator events!
MuzzleFlash (@muzzleflash)
12th December 2014, 0:07
Wonder why they never considered letting teams continue to run the V8s for a few seasons if they wanted. In ’06 they let Toro Rosso run a V10 with a rev limiter didn’t they? Might have made for some interesting racing too if they’d qualify on pole but suffer in the race with the extra 50kg.
Nathan (@il-ferrarista)
12th December 2014, 2:33
Very well said!
John H (@john-h)
12th December 2014, 7:21
Having a standard MCU would be impossible I’m guessing.
Carlitox (@carlitox)
12th December 2014, 0:10
If only it was viable, Bernie, we would be soooo damn happy.
While we’re at it, I’ll take the chance to thank Mr. Valentine for running this Fantastic F1 site ;)
MtlRacer (@mtlracer)
12th December 2014, 0:12
COTD: The only reason to have detailed designs of the current Ferrari would be as “things not to do.”
Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
12th December 2014, 4:55
@mtlracer Not to mention that this behaviour is common with drivers changing teams, although there’s an interesting history between these 2. Fernando is like the flu, seen as a disease but and you can catch twice.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
12th December 2014, 0:15
I’m in for V10 engines. I absolutely adore them.
But honestly… it goes against everything else in the industry…
JCost (@jcost)
12th December 2014, 8:05
@fer-no65
I my humble opinion, it’s a bad idea. Going back to V10 to stop Mercedes is ridiculous. Everything written and said so far about their dominance for the next few years is speculation, we really don’t know where Williams will be in 2015, how improved Renault’s and Ferrari’s PU will be in 2015 or how good McLaren-Honda will be.
It’s almost like Nokia asking EU to ban smart phones to guarantee a leveled playing field.
The world has moved on. If we want a barely rustic Formula we should put those top class drivers racing in go-karts.
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 12:04
@jcost
Shouldn’t F1 be a thrilling spectacle in the flesh though? I am against banning anything just to stop one team who have done better, especially since I am a Hamilton fan……………:) But the V10’s would not be ‘dinosaur’ technology, they could still be cutting edge and very efficient, and would of course be much lighter than the current whale-like cars. the huge benefit would be that they would be extremely exciting again at the circuit.
JCost (@jcost)
12th December 2014, 13:31
@paulguitar I did enjoy 2014 and it’s not written anywhere that V10 will make racing much better… by the way many people have bad memories of Ferrari dominance days when engines were V10s…
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 13:45
It is true, 2014 was great for racing, and indeed, sometimes the V10- era was very dull. My hope would be that you have the best of both worlds, ideally involving V10 and V12 engines, but with greatly reduced down force like we have in 2014…….:)
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 12:06
@fer-no65
But does that matter? I don’t see why F1 should make some vague attempt to be ‘green’, it would make it even more special if F1 is using 1000BHP V10’s while the other categories are wheezing round in diesels and hybrids. bring it on!
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
12th December 2014, 12:12
@paulguitar don’t get me wrong, I’d love to see petrol eater beasts go round the track.
But honestly… I don’t see it viable in the long term. Mercedes is in because of the engine regulations, and I suppose Honda is in because of that aswell. More manufacturers chose WEC over F1 because of the possibility to use diverse technologies for the powerplants…
When you have a series that has both petrols and diesels, in different configurations, all battling for the win in a reasonably even playing field, bringing back the dinasaurs doesn’t look like a bright idea.
For commercial reasons, that is. Fans will adore it, that’s for sure. But fans are irrelevant in any decision sadly !
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 12:28
@fer-no65
You make some sensible points. Personally, I would be fine if F1 once again was just made up of ‘garagist’ teams, as it used to be with Tyrell, Williams and the like, when we had the engines supplied by separate manufacturers, or off the shelf from Cosworth. Seems to me the manufacturers have made F1 bloated, too much money involved, and, sadly much less impressive in the flesh due to the hybrid/turbo configuration.
I understand, of course, that a V10 engine is a rarity in a road car, and that in road cars turbos are clearly the future, but here is where I get a bit exasperated. F1 should have NOTHING to do with road cars, it is supposed to be a sport, and anyone who thinks that F1 has had any really significant positive impact on road car technology is kidding themselves, as most people who work in f1 will tell you.
Most of all, I just want to go back and sit at Eau Rouge once again and hear an F1 car with a glorious engine disappearing up to Radillon. I can’t bring myself to go with the current cars, I think I would be crying into my frites and mayonnaise, such is the lack of visceral drama from them.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
12th December 2014, 13:26
@paulguitar the problem with that thought is that, sure, F1 should have nothing to do (to some extent) with road cars but tell me how many companies, persons, whatever can afford investing so much money on racing cars of such complexity?
Unless another company like Cosworth appears and builds a reasonably cheap and competitive engine, you’ll need manufacturers to get involved and push F1 forward. And they only want to use F1 as a platform to improve sales, as a publicity stunt, or, more understandable, to show the world what they can do.
New technologies, with a view for the future, is a good incentive for them.
The old days are also gone and we should look forward. Because what we love is never going to come back.
Blake Merriam
12th December 2014, 14:25
My only experience seeing/hearing the v10s was in Spa 2005. The sound of the cars filtering through the woods was the sexiest sound ever. I completely agree with you.
matt90 (@matt90)
12th December 2014, 19:10
I believe that even in the midst of the Cosworth era, there were more different engines on the grid than we saw this year. There was still engine competition then, and if that dies then F1 would struggle to recover. To that end, it needs to attract manufacturers (although mainly to build engines rather than run teams) unless specialist companies can take their place (such as Judd). These engines do that.
Atticus (@atticus-2)
12th December 2014, 0:20
OMG, those faces from 2002… Twelve long, hard years…
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
12th December 2014, 1:23
@atticus-2 Beards make aaaaaaaaaaaaall the difference :P
Atticus (@atticus-2)
12th December 2014, 1:46
@fer-no65 Haha, indeed they do. :D
Nathan (@il-ferrarista)
12th December 2014, 2:38
Is it any truth in that Ron hates beards, and that its somehow forbidden for Mclaren employees?? Sound harsh, and kind of Mormon/sect like.. :)
Also strange if that’s true when you consider how connected Mclaren is to it’s Middle-East business partners.
Andrew R
12th December 2014, 0:20
Ernie must think it is April 1. Changing engine specifications so soon after the last change is idiocy. I can see Honda being amused.
Paul (@frankjaeger)
12th December 2014, 0:26
My 2007 McLaren ‘ALONSO’ shirt just became a little more relevant haha. Wore it with pride today.
Absolutely ecstatic that McLaren chose Button against K-Mag. Don’t get me wrong, K-Mag is a talent which should be nurtured but Button really deserved that seat. I think the heads who decided on the lineup might have thought 2 things:
a) we know we have a mighty good weapon we can use to challenge, but we need a consistent, solid driver to deliver the points and maybe go for that WCC
b) We haven’t got such a marvelous engine, let’s not get a 2nd-yearer with a track record of mistake and errors to have a replica of the last 2 years.
I get the impression this year and the next, we’ll see McLaren’s excruciatingly overdue rise to the top. They can develop the life out of that car, and they’ve got 2 solid drivers to really bring home the points. I can’t wait to see how Button fairs v Alonso. I do rate Button highly but I think Alonso might just get the edge on him this year; I’d love to be proved wrong
Just had a quick glance at the odds for WDC next year (early doors I know but) and Vettel is 18/1?! with Raikkonen 125/1, on par with Grosjean in that dogged Lotus, it seems this season’s thrashing by Alonso has hurt him reputation somewhat.
Rybo (@rybo)
12th December 2014, 1:13
McLaren are in a delicate position as their fate is out of their hands so to speak. Even with the best engine in the field they were only 5th best. With relatively little change in the regulations, it’s a big ask to think that they are going to find the time to challenge Red Bull and Williams let alone Mercedes. Ferrari however can be jumped, but that’s if they produce an even worse car than last year.
I’m really pulling for McLaren, but I think their time will be in year two of the Honda relationship.
Ian Stephens (@ians)
12th December 2014, 1:43
Actually McLaren had the 2nd best engine in the field. Once they made it clear they were working with Honda I am sure Mercedes stopped giving them the latest spec, just as Vettel was denied access to next year’s Red Bull plans once he announced he woas leaving.
Ron Dennis’ statement that you can not compete with a factory team became a self fulfilling prophesy.
Rybo (@rybo)
12th December 2014, 1:51
Even still McLaren were behind all of the top teams and Force India majority of the season. Even if the 2015 car is a “good step” faster than the 2014 car, everyone else is getting faster as well.
Engine aside, McLaren did not do a good job building a competitive car last year. Simple as that. Granted they might be able to find more time relative to everyone else, but no team is going to show up in Jerez and be slower than they were last year.
Nathan (@il-ferrarista)
12th December 2014, 2:42
What you mean by last year; season 2014 or season 2013 ?
megatron
12th December 2014, 19:58
Mc Laren didn´t get the special lubrificants from Petronas which the others got for example.
Deej92 (@deej92)
12th December 2014, 20:04
I think what might’ve helped Mercedes, and Williams as a matter of fact, is the use of Petronas fuel. McLaren used Mobil 1. Next year Williams are using Petrobras instead. Lotus are using Petronas instead. I think their move to Petronas-fuelled Mercedes engines in particular is going to be huge. I’m going off the subject a little I know, but the point is that the fuel used is extremely important in engine performance.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
13th December 2014, 9:51
The biggest issue was the cooling configuration. Williams had their car adjusted to it (like Mercedes had from the start) and immediately they were a challenge for Mercedes in Austria.
McLaren en FI stuck with a more conventional cooling
ColdFly F1 (@)
12th December 2014, 7:57
@rybo, jumping Ferrari is actually quite simple.
Take away their best scoring driver and replace your worst one.
That is exactly what McLaren did!
Rybo (@rybo)
12th December 2014, 13:33
The Ferrari had more pace than McLaren. Kimi just had an off year, but when he was on it he was right there with Alonso. You could argue the Alonso factor and what not, but if Kimi has the car to his liking he will be quick again.
Deej92 (@deej92)
12th December 2014, 19:57
Same as that regarding the shirt!
Deej92 (@deej92)
12th December 2014, 19:58
ALONSO/1 ;)
Ian Wilkins
12th December 2014, 0:27
Oh great. Bernie gives air to ‘we can only possibly like loud noises’ brigade again. F1 doesn’t need to be ear bleedingly loud to be entertaining. This seaon proves that.
TribalTalker (@tribaltalker)
12th December 2014, 11:29
+1. If you want loud, go drag racing.
Geeyore
13th December 2014, 13:28
Did you actually attend a race? F1 cars now sound anemic and pathetic, like lawnmowers or maybe motorboats passing down the river.
sato113 (@sato113)
12th December 2014, 0:37
is it possible to have a hybrid V-10/V-8? with a turbo?
Rylan Ziegler (@torretto1)
12th December 2014, 0:51
It is only problem is it would have too much power and be too dangerous to drive
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
12th December 2014, 1:36
@sato113 @torretto1 it depends, doesn’t it?… we used to have 1500 bhp with less aero and more dangerous tracks…
Rylan Ziegler (@torretto1)
12th December 2014, 1:45
Yeah that’s true but I can’t imagine anyone in the FIA or FOM wanting to go back to that. Those things were bloody dangerous enough. A hybrid turbo V10s would be more powerful (at least to my mind) since those 1500hp monsters were V6s and 4 cylinders in some cases.
Rylan Ziegler (@torretto1)
12th December 2014, 1:51
Although with that said, I don’t think there’s anyone who would want to see that more than me
sato113 (@sato113)
12th December 2014, 12:10
what about a V10 with just the electric hybrid part?
or a V10 with just a turbo?
Breno (@austus)
12th December 2014, 9:23
Wouldnt a V10 turbo hybrid be crazy heavy though?
DD42
12th December 2014, 0:37
Please Bernie bring back unrestricted engines – to keep it under control keep them as 1.6 litres and but allow free reign. 1.6 quad turbo w16s against 1.6 single turbo v8s would be nice!
DD42
12th December 2014, 0:40
Oh and let them be fitted with unrestricted ERS and use racing fuel… And NOS!
@HoHum (@hohum)
12th December 2014, 1:20
Sounds (no pun) marvellous but unless the rev limit is de-restricted there is nothing to gain from extra cylinders.
Mike (@mike)
12th December 2014, 3:17
…. That’s a horrible idea. Nos? Really?
Also a 1.6L W16 is rather pointless. It’d be ridiculously heavy.
Marc Thielke (@motor)
12th December 2014, 5:49
However, a 16cyl 1.6 might attract other engine manufactures like Briggs & Stratton, Husqvarna and Stihl.
BJ (@beejis60)
12th December 2014, 5:55
@mike Agreed. A 16cyl 1.6L engine is probably what a three year old would think of after learning how to count.
DD42
12th December 2014, 21:02
I wasn’t suggesting a w16 as a good idea, I was merely saying I want engine manufacturers to have free reign, he’ll if they decide they want to try a 1.6 single cylinder with no turbo allow them to go for it!
Mike (@mike)
13th December 2014, 11:30
They’d likely end up with V6 Turbos….
Patrickl (@patrickl)
13th December 2014, 9:54
If you want to prevent dominating teams by giving them an engine choice, look back at how that worked out in 1988.
Neusalz (@dpod)
12th December 2014, 0:38
That old man is insane, but I bet he takes every criticism/insult and laughs it off on his way to the bank.
Jay Menon (@jaymenon10)
12th December 2014, 0:39
As much as I’d love the V10s…there is no way any mainstream manufacturer will build one. All the big boys have scrapped V10s, barring Ferrari, I doubt anybody builds anything with more than 8 pots these days.
Sure, you could get the likes of Hart, Illmor or Costworth to build you V10s, 12s or however many pots you want, but then what does F1 become? It cant go on in its current form. There has to be a massive cost cap, then it could work.
bull mello (@bullmello)
12th December 2014, 0:42
V-8s & V10s are in the history books. More likely 4 cylinders or turbo diesels. Would be interesting to see them run against the V-6s.
No doubt Bernie has caused an ironic tweet storm with his twitter ignorance.
Maybe we should somehow relish all the twisted declarations and malaprops by Bernie in what are bound to be his last days as emperor of F1.
Rylan Ziegler (@torretto1)
12th December 2014, 0:52
Turbo diesels is something I would love to see. Plus that would definitely give Audi reason to join
Rybo (@rybo)
12th December 2014, 2:10
I hope F1 isn’t that inflexible. Just because something was done previously shouldn’t mean that should be disposed of forever. Hopefully if changes are made its done in a way that benefits the sport for the teams and the fans.
The V-6 turbos were decided upon a long time ago, and they should be kept for a reasonable time before they decided to shake things up. The last thing F1 needs is ever changing power trains which increase costs and further alienate the small teams.
drmouse (@drmouse)
12th December 2014, 5:35
+1. They need to stop messing with the regulations so much. A period of stability is what we need.
The only other thing which I think could be added is a cost cap on engines. Limit the amount they can sell them for, but also require them to make them available to every team.
Tim
12th December 2014, 18:34
Can Bernie Ecclestone please go away now?
Rylan Ziegler (@torretto1)
12th December 2014, 1:00
Read on Forbes that Bernie plans to propose going back to the V8s at the next strategy group meeting. That makes me shudder a bit. V10s are more sensible in that at least most of us current fans would like them. No one liked listening to the V8s…
Adam Hardwick (@fluxsource)
12th December 2014, 1:02
For the love of God, just shut the hell up Bernie. I mean it. Just stop speaking.
TheBullWhipper (@thebullwhipper)
12th December 2014, 2:04
+1
It’s getting really embarrassing for him, 1st he only wants “fans” over 70 or have loads of money, then he calls the midfield teams “beggers” who spend more than they have, then we had ‘twitter-gate’ where he declared F1 has no use for social media, Facebook and the internet in general and now we have him suggesting to 4 international car manufacturers that the throw away half a billion Euros they each spent on cutting edge power units and then convinced them to build engines from last century…….
The guy needs culling pretty quick, as I fear there may be a scorched earth policy on Bernie Ecclestone’s mind as a parting gift.
Seppo (@helava)
12th December 2014, 7:44
+2. Ecclestone can’t be gone soon enough. I get that controversy drives press, and I get that he’s basically a megolomaniacal goon, but could you even IMAGINE what F1 would be like if there were a whole field of well-compensated teams, where the rules allowed CREATIVITY in pursuit of speed instead of micrometer-level restrictions on everything under the sun?
Mercedes had a brilliant innovation in their engine, and their success was well deserved. Why can’t there be similar freedom around other things? Clearly, the regulations don’t limit costs, even if that was their intention. So you’re left with a bunch of idiotic things like DRS and garbage tires to prop up a sport that’s been hamstrung by its own regulations. Why? Because Bernie *has no vision* for the future of F1, and if he does, he’s doing such a monumentally incompetent job of communicating it that he might as well not anyway.
The thing I LOVE about F1 is the blend of technical creativity with driver talent, and the international nature of the participants.
But now the technical creativity is dramatically hampered either by regulations or budget. Driver talent is limited by the need for insane levels of sponsorship that eclipses the need for talent in half or more of the teams on the grid, and the international elements are for what?? So we can go to the middle of nowhere in Korea, or ethically nonsensical places like Bahrain? Sure, people will argue that it’s sport – but we don’t even NEED to have this argument in the first place. The only reason we do is that Bernie loves money more than anything else, and will exchange the integrity of F1 for a pat on the head from some trillionaire dictator who’s murdering their own people after meeting with Bernie.
He presided over a long stretch of good times in F1, but GOOD GRIEF it is time to get rid of him and move on. F1 needs a real leader, with a vision for how to get back to *RACING* – where the engineers and drivers compete at the highest possible levels in a sustainable way in places where people can go WATCH the races in person, and not pay ridiculous prices. Where technical excellence actually *means* something so that the sponsorships on the cars are valuable as associations with brilliant people performing brilliantly, instead of joke sponsors on the side of teams hamstrung by stupid prize money distributions that have no way of competing out of their budget because all the rules destroy any potentially creative solutions (FRIC, among many many others) to problems that can let a lower-budget team punch above its weight.
I’m really sick to death of Bernie’s bandaids and constant undermining of the integrity of the people and the sport. Calling teams “beggars” or saying they’re “idiots” for not doing what he tells them – can you even CONCEIVE of an F1 that was led by someone who believed in integrity, who believed in racing, who believed that sport is a force for the best that humanity can offer, and not just a vending machine for money so they can buy their way out of the criminal justice system?
Man. I’d watch that.
Lore
12th December 2014, 1:14
wow, I agree… Bernie really needs to just shut it… i think some senility is creeping in, can he really be so out of touch?
matiascasali (@matiascasali)
12th December 2014, 1:16
I agree with bernie in one thing: engine rules must be changed! they have to be 1.6L turbo. Period. If they want to do a v10 out of that, then be it, they want to do a line 4? ok, do it. Do you want to pull a Nissan and throw a Wankel Rotatory? ok, do it! but longing for 3.0 v10 it’s just a sign of bernie being completely out of touch with the reality.
Breno (@austus)
12th December 2014, 1:23
On other news, Bernie is planning on renaming F1 to Formula Ferrari, following all other engine manufacturers leaving after the switch to V10s.
@HoHum (@hohum)
12th December 2014, 1:52
Following which Ferrari announce F1 will be returning to V12’s the following season.
Ed Marques (@edmarques)
12th December 2014, 1:27
Bernie is insane.
Nathan (@il-ferrarista)
12th December 2014, 2:48
He’s not ;). Be sure, Just as his friend Vladimir the Great.
@HoHum (@hohum)
12th December 2014, 1:31
Could this be Bernies way of trying, but failing, to ensure more than 16 cars on the grid ?
” M’Lord my client Mr. Ecclestone has suggested many different ways the teams could reduce the cost of competing in F1, including using simpler but more powerful engines, but all suggestions have been rejected by the teams themselves.”
bull mello (@bullmello)
12th December 2014, 1:56
@hohum – Good observation.
Biggsy
12th December 2014, 1:34
As much as he is a despicable human being, you gotta appreciate Bernie’s sense of humor.
Haha, that’s just pure gold! :)
Ian Stephens (@ians)
12th December 2014, 1:46
When will Bernie learn that it is changes to the regulations which drive up costs? Only big money teams can keep up. When he ran a team there were fewer regulation changes, except to ban his vacuum cleaner on wheels!
@HoHum (@hohum)
12th December 2014, 1:56
You have to admit though, the vacuum cleaner was cheaper and more effective than all the alternatives.
Stig Semper Fi (@stigsemperfi)
12th December 2014, 2:07
He can put V10’s on the table all he likes. But whose gonna agree with it? The senility is strong in this one.
Nathan (@il-ferrarista)
12th December 2014, 2:53
+1, can’t understand which manufacturer will invest in one more big engine regulation change. Or could they perhaps use the old V10s, or is that just no no (- and if so why?) ‘ ?
claudioff (@claudioff)
12th December 2014, 2:25
@keith: How about an article with a compilation of all Bernie’s “ideas” in the last couple of years (medals, artificial wet races, etc.)? March seems very far away.
Stig Semper Fi (@stigsemperfi)
12th December 2014, 4:28
I’d read that.
synapseza (@synapseza)
12th December 2014, 8:04
Shortcuts on the track, Abu Double…
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
12th December 2014, 8:34
@claudioff That would take a long time! But it would be a good way of illustrating how these brainwaves of his shouldn’t betaken too seriously.
mrvco
12th December 2014, 4:55
Everyone seems to forget that F1 has already been through this before with the first Turbo Era. The current milquetoast formula won’t last forever or if it does then F1 won’t last forever.
James
12th December 2014, 5:24
I personally think that they should go back to a mixed Formula. Let engine manufacturers pick an engine which suits them best. Have V6 Turbos, V8’s, V12’s, just like the good ol’ days. Just some some regulations in place like power and torque limits to keep the engines equal. Just bring a portable engine dyno and test the cars at every event, and let the FIA see telemetry to see if a team is cheating and the turbo is producing more boost than it did when tested on the dyno.
Maybe a live engine dyno built into the ECU or something intelligent like that if it’s possible.
Jordi Casademunt (@casjo)
12th December 2014, 6:39
I know Bernie must be scared of losing his job, but I don’t think switching to comedy would be a good career move.
Jan (@netm)
12th December 2014, 6:52
After my initial reaction that Bernie is just talking bull again, I now sort of see how V10 could help F1. Don’t get me wrong, I like the new V6, I find them immensely interesting, but perhaps was the move to V6 engines wrong, exactly because it was what the big car manufacturers wanted?
If the egnines were changed to irrelevant V10, that means manufacturers would most likely leave the sport and Ilmor, Hart and Cosworth would make engines. Yes, these engines would be less efficiency and less powerful, but hopefully also much less expensive. With the manufacturers gone, the field would be open to more “born to race” type of teams and privateers as the costs would automatically be reduced.
On the other hand, it is also possible that a shift like that would end up with F1 imploding as it’s quickly relegated to 2nd tier motor sport, irrelevant to teams, manufacturers and audiences alike.
PeterG
12th December 2014, 11:47
I can’t see Hart, Ilmor or any other private engine builders been interested in F1 even if it went back to a V10 formula. Remember that those 2 engine builders last pulled out of F1 when it was a V10 formula & have shown no interest in coming back since.
Regarding Cosworth, They actually have designed a V6 Turbo for the current engine formula & are simply waiting for a team to partner with them to further develop it-
http://www.racecar-engineering.com/news/cosworth-reveals-2014-f1-power-unit/
TheBullWhipper (@thebullwhipper)
12th December 2014, 7:21
I don’t think that introducing a technologically obsolete engine from the middle of last century will do anyone any good at all. Companies like illmor, Cosworth and Heart just don’t have the resources to build new special engines even if they are low tech, unless you want to just revert directly to the exact design of the V10’s or V8’s that have already seen their set regulations come and go. The sport would become a laughing stock in a very short space of time. Next someone will suggest that Caterham or Marussia come back using a Cosworth DFV to save money.
You cannot undo progress, once you learn something, you can’t un-learn it and erase it from your mind, so no matter how nostalgic turning back the F1clock may sound, I’m afraid it’s just a non-starter.
Aqib (@aqibqadeer)
12th December 2014, 7:29
Hi there Mr Valentine LOL!!
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
12th December 2014, 8:35
@aqibqadeer Only Mrs F1 Fanatic gets to call me that :-)
zippyone (@zippyone)
12th December 2014, 10:19
@keithcollantine / valentine (!) Any thought on changing the website to F1 Fantastic? I like it ;)
Jared H (@thejaredhuang)
12th December 2014, 8:30
If you want to cut costs you have to have the same regulations for years. The engine program perfect the way it is, its just unfortunate that someone came out way ahead of others.
In the V8 era Mercedes also had the strongest engine but RBR won 4 championships by focusing on other arears. 2014 was pretty much 2009 again but RBR didn’t catch up at the end.
Since the MSC and Ferrari era there has always been one or two teams that dominate the season, people just aren’t used to it being Mercedes.
Stephen Crowsen (@drycrust)
12th December 2014, 8:50
I’m not sure why there is so much fuss about the engine, unless it is a cheaper engine then F1 will continue to have teams struggling to survive.
Really, provided the engine is safe to use, it should really be up to a team to decide what sort of engine to use, and as to whether to use hybrid technology or not. I do think the limit on the amount of engines that can be used in a year is good. I also think what should be mandated is the amount of fuel that can be used in race.
For example, they could get the average fuel per car used on a track last year and say that + say 5% is the maximum amount that can be used in the race on that track this year. If they did that for each track, then left it up to each team to decide what sort of engine will enable them to win a race using that amount of fuel. Some teams will opt for powerful engines without hybrid technology, others will opt for more more economical engines with hybrid technology.
TheBullWhipper (@thebullwhipper)
12th December 2014, 15:21
The fuel is already mandated for the race, it’s 100kg at a maximum flow no greater than 100kg/hour. It would be an idea to look at how much energy is in 100kg of current fuel and then allocated the same available energy but in different forms, maybe diesel for example, as long as the allocated fuel contains the same energy level (kw or Mj) at the start of the race in all the cars, what would it matter what engine or fuel type they use, it’s all about extracting the maximum from the energy available.
Alex
12th December 2014, 9:08
I find the J. Button situation very difficult. Yes he will continue in McLaren but at which cost? He was never liked by Ron Dennis, they made a lot of pressure to him so he renew Jenson. U will expect the new driver to be the one they focus 100% on his car, to avoid 2007 problems, to give him role of number 1 driver… Nobody will want Jenson Button beating Alonso regularly… So very difficult situation, he renewed, but at which cost? The cost of accepting role of second driver? To be a Barrichello? Better continue in f1 as second driver role? Or better go elshewere and fight with freedom for other things, whats your opinion?
Alex
12th December 2014, 9:14
It was a very difficult situation for both drivers Magnussen and Button. Magnussen could accept the second driver role, but that could destroy his f1 career, like it happened with lot of younger talents that shared team with Alonso. The only one that is recovering from that is Grosjean, and because he stepped down to gp2. If magnussen shares team with Alonso, he will have hard time, he will get experience, but may be bad experience of seeing all focus in one driver and not in the rookie and person who needs more help because he is beginning. Now Magnussen wont have seat in f1, they communicate the decission so late, he wont be able to find anything in other teams, or even gp2. May be he should try go to DTM which has good level and will keep his driving abilities sharp.
zippyone (@zippyone)
12th December 2014, 10:22
Wow, that pic is funny for me because Alonso looks just like my boyfriend when he has a shave, he usually has a different type of beard to Alonso! Except my boyfriend has (ever so) slightly smaller eyebrows! The resemblance is uncanny.
DavidS (@davids)
12th December 2014, 10:24
I would like to see the engine regulations relaxed to allow variety, but some way of keeping power levels similar (and fuel consumption being strictly controlled).
Let the engine manufacturers decide what they want to build. Some may choose to stick with the current config, or use previous designs that have been updated, or go for something new. The choice is there, the choice to spend money or not is there.
Ideally, different engines should be distinctive enough to identify. Engine manufacturers could gain more marketing leverage out of being a supplier. Mercedes could have a thumping V8, Ferrari might go for something high revving and resonant, Renault might go for a whistling and popping turbo 4. VW might enter the sport with a turbo diesel.
If the manufacturers can express their brand identity in more than just a logo painted on the car, they might be more willing to invest in the sport.
ColdFly F1 (@)
12th December 2014, 10:43
As much as we hate BE, he knows how to keep the attention of the press and public.
As the say: “There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary.”
And I am not even sure about the exception in Bernie’s case!
Timothy Katz (@timothykatz)
12th December 2014, 10:43
I love Webber’s tweet
“My mates Billy Button and the Fonz team up next year. Great driver line up.”
They will now always be Billy Button and the Fonz!
Hello Kitty
12th December 2014, 11:11
I’d love to see the spectacular V10’s back, however, I have a suggestion to keep everybody happy. Why not let F1 teams choose which engine they wish to use in any given season? For example a team could choose to use a V10 or Hybrid during the season. This would inject a much needed element of unpredictability as certain engines/teams would have an advantage at certain tracks. It would be a little like the mid ninties when a team could run a V8, V10 or V12. PLEASE PLEASE can we do this and return F1 to what it used to be??!!!!
Dave (@)
12th December 2014, 11:35
We already have F1 as it used to be. It’s just that it’s now called LMP1-H, and is part of the WEC ;)
Ian Stephens (@ians)
12th December 2014, 23:42
+1
Dave (@)
12th December 2014, 11:34
Didn’t seem to bother him when Red Bull scored both championships four years running, or when Ferrari had six WCC and five WDC in a row.
Adam Hardwick (@fluxsource)
12th December 2014, 12:06
Can somebody please explain exactly what is so great about the V10s that everyone wants to go back to them? I mean, beyond them being “awesome”.
The Abbinator (@abbinator)
12th December 2014, 13:22
You can keep the bleeding ears, thanks… I like hearing the tyres squeal and the in car comms wihtout the annoying background WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 14:32
@abbinator
‘Annoying background’? I take it you have only watched on TV?
Ian Stephens (@ians)
12th December 2014, 23:43
Indeed. It’s annoying foreground at the circuit.
paulguitar (@paulguitar)
12th December 2014, 23:59
@ians
I am lost for words. You have actually heard V10 F1 live and found it ‘annoying’? I mean, seriously?
Patrickl (@patrickl)
13th December 2014, 9:58
Yes I have also. Worst was in Imola sitting in those grandstands along the start finish straight. Had to wear my ear protectors the whole race. That’s freakishly annoying yes.
The Abbinator (@abbinator)
13th December 2014, 0:12
I was specifically referring to being able to hear the in car comma (radio) which was streets ahead this year. I’ve simply ad too many nights by the bass bins or more recently in server rooms or with crying babies to enjoy noise of any kind anymore. Tinnitus is no fun, give me a deep throaty stock V8 with lots of torque and revs below 10,000 and I enjoy it. Super high revs of low displacement high tuned engines are just annoying, sorry.
The Abbinator (@abbinator)
13th December 2014, 0:15
In car commS – stupid IOS auto-correct!
puneeth Bharath (@puneethvb)
12th December 2014, 18:40
Probably out of context but still thought it’s worth posting
Just finished watching the documentary Alonso ‘s last race for Ferrari …
Pleasantly surprised to see the genuine affection shown towards him by the paddock specially the Ferrari guys (some of them were on tears when he said his good bye) … He seems like a very popular guy contrary to what we generally read in the articles about him … Always admired Alonso the racer but after watching the documentary the respect for Alonso as a person has grown quite a few notches in my book… Off course he’s not perfect but hardly any of the drivers is ….so glad that such a documentary was made …just brilliant!
Bullfrog (@bullfrog)
12th December 2014, 21:01
Would be great to see Magnussen & Son have a crack at Le Mans. They’ll need a third driver, and I’m volunteering for that here and now – but maybe Mr. Le Mans could be their second choice if they can persuade Tom Kristensen out of retirement!
He may be better off out of F1 than having a disappointing Kovalainen-like year at McLaren. He’ll be near the top of any other team’s list if they want or need a driver change (they’d have to deal with a load of contracts and Ronspeak though)
It’s really tough on Vandoorne – as David Tremayne wrote in the Independent today, in a really good piece that restored some of my faith in the British papers. Saddened and dismayed at the other newspapers’ coverage, just curling out soundbites for Bernie. They wouldn’t go and brown-nose Sepp Blatter instead of reporting the unveiling of a massive new signing for Chelsea or Arsenal, would they?
Bullfrog (@bullfrog)
12th December 2014, 21:07
They couldn’t recreate it now they’re a bit older. Those are Alonso’s hands on his shoulders, and it’s Trulli’s left hand & JB’s right on the table…