Start, Monza, 2014

F1 defies critics as fans praise 2014 racing

2014 F1 season review

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Fears F1 races would be made boring in 2014 by the new engine regulations and the dominance of Mercedes were largely unfounded. F1 Fanatic’s regular Rate the Race polls revealed 2014 to be a significant improvement on last year in terms of the quality of racing.

F1 Fanatic users rated each race out of ten* and the average score given to races in 2014 was 7.1 – a substantial improvement on last year’s average of 6.6. Five races were rated higher than last year’s best.

Three races in particular stood out – the Canadian, Hungarian and Bahrain rounds, each of which scored over nine out of ten. Only six races have scored as highly since the polls began in 2008.

The season wasn’t without its duff races, however. Two of the first four scored less than six out of ten. And Russia’s first round of the world championship produced one of the least popular races ever among F1 Fanatic readers. Just three prior races were rated lower than the inaugural Russian Grand Prix.

Average Rate the Race scores, 2008-2014

YearAverage ratingHighest ratingLowest rating
20086.6518.756 (Brazil)3.977 (Europe)
20096.3168.309 (Brazil)5.276 (Turkey)
20106.7598.668 (Canada)3.740 (Germany)
20117.239.241 (Chinese)3.871 (Europe)
20127.3679.449 (Brazil)5.158 (Korea)
20136.6917.826 (Bahrain)5.017 (Abu Dhabi)
20147.1279.190 (Canada)4.064 (Russia)

2014 Rate the Race results

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*There was no Rate the Race poll for the Japanese Grand Prix

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Author information

Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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63 comments on “F1 defies critics as fans praise 2014 racing”

  1. The top nine races have all happened with Pirelli tyres. Thank you.

    1. Good point, and many of those races were awesome because of the tyre performance, while wet weather was also a common thread in the top races, rather than install sprinklers, we just need to schedule races in months with higher rainfall.

      1. Please no. No more Bianchi-like accidents anymore.

        1. His accident had zero to do with rain, all the more with the crane on track and insufficient rules on maximum speed under yellow flags. And even then, it was a freak-accident, you make it seem like’Bianchi-like accidents’ are the norm each and every time it rains. If anything, there should be more wet-weather running instead of circling laps behind the safety car and waiting for the intermediate conditions – the wet-weather tyres by Pirelli could definitely use work, they’re not nearly as good as the Bridgestone tyres.

          1. +1 Well said

          2. +2, very well said!

      2. how long you been working for Pirelli? Worst era in modern f1.
        /discussion

    2. I can’t say i’ve really enjoyed any of the post 2011 races, Far too artificial for my liking with DRS & these stupid tyres.

      Give me real racing battles & proper overtaking any-day over any races post 2011.

      Big part of why i’ve gone off to Indycar, Real racing without gimmick tyres & silly moving wings.

      1. At least 2014 was a step in the right direction with regards the tyres. This wasn’t random F1 like we saw in 2012 and 2013. Agreed about DRS though (of course).

      2. But IndyCar has a button which is actually labelled “Push to Pass”, with a maximum usage of 10 uses per race. How is that any different from DRS?

  2. all in all i think except the stand-out races (bahrain, canada and hungary) the races were not really that much better than the ones in 2013, the reason being that it was always a mercedes dominance. dominating a sport may sound good for the actual constructor, but for the viewers (especially if one doesn’t really like either of their drivers) it’s very boring and doesn’t help f1 to gain more fans or even keep their fans at all. quite a few people i asked about f1 this year said they don’t watch it anymore because it’s always mercedes that wins anyway or the engines sound terrible. sounds alarming if you ask me.

    this year certainly made my interest fade, heck, i even fell asleep on more than one occasion during races.
    2015 needs to produce more than just three winners, otherwise i fear i’m going to loose interest in f1 completely.

    and i haven’t even mentioned the DRS or the conservative tyres!

    1. There was at least a genuine title fight this year. Admittedly you had to care about either of Hamilton or Rosberg winning. But then that goes for any year. 2015 promises to be closer and more competitive – unless of course Mercedes match the other teams’ developments (particular Williams and maybe McLaren) with their own leap ahead. The fact is that three teams – Williams with Bottas, Red Bull with Ricciardo and now McLaren with Alonso – all have drivers with the talent to score race wins even without having the fastest car (unlike Ferrari…).

      1. it was a more genuine title fight in previous years, then we saw the best car, and the best drivers coming to the fore, i prefer that then seeing the top 2-3 drivers have to follow around a second a lap slower because of 85 less horsepower (that figure is from team lotus switching to mercedes). your last sentence is having a go at vettel? did you forget he won in a torro rosso?

        1. Well it’s also having a got at Raikkonen, who is or was one of my favourite drivers. The remark’s throwaway admittedly, but I think it’s valid. Vettel showed this year he wasn’t up to battling with Ricciardo this year (though I did wonder whether he wasn’t trying to ‘bail out’ of Red Bull after a few races, maybe in the back of his mind, by activating his get-out clause through poor results?). Will he match Alonso in dragging a lame Ferrari onto the podium? I just doubt it, despite his 2008 Monza win, which, yes, was a fantastic drive in rainy conditions.

        2. Also: we did see two of the best drivers coming to the fore this year. I watched the BBC review of the year yesterday and was struck by Hamilton’s remark on the bigtime difference, 17 seconds, he had over Rosberg in the second race (Malaysia). He said he’d planned and used a lot of techniques – fuel conserving etc – to pull out that gap. But by the next race Rosberg had studied those techniques and applied them. For me the whole season was about this: Hamilton using his skill and ingenuity – and racecraft – to pull out an advantage, Rosberg using his data prowling and ability to apply what he’s learnt to erase that advantage and, often, produce a cleaner lap to get the edge in qualifying. Two different styles and talents, but you can’t really say they weren’t pushing the car to its maximum.

        3. Actually, Vettel won Monza in a Red Bull with a Ferrari engine. Not that the RB3 was a particularly good car either, but Vettel was driving a car designed by Adrian Newey.

    2. I agree with you. Yes there may have been a title fight, but it was between two drivers and a team I couldn’t possibly care less about. Had it been two different drivers from two different teams then I may have been more interested.

    3. @rigi You cannot always satisfy everyone. The racing was good this year and even though the fight for WDC was between two team-mates whom you don’t like apparently, at least there was a fight. 2013 most races were won by one driver, with a few more being left scraps. yeah there were 5 winners but Vettel won 13, Rosberg 2, Alonso 2, Kimi 1, Lewis 1. Is that your idea of good racing? An average score reflects the general opinion, so the scores were high in 2014, but it cannot reflect every opinion. If for you there needs to be a huge amount of winners fighting for WDC preferably including those you like, for it to be considered good racing, then you have “expensive taste”. there were only two seasons to suit you in modern times: 1982 and 2012. Talk to you in 2042

      1. @montreal95 of course not everyone can be satisfied, but that’s simply what happened to me this year. a fight between team-mates is never as exciting as a fight between two or more drivers from different teams. 2013 was worse than 2014 by a lot, because at least the mercedes drivers were pulling away as a pair, whereas in 2013 webber was underperforming throughout the whole year and never could keep up with seb. i don’t have expensive taste. all i want is more than two drivers to be able to fight for the championship, and i’m sure most f1 fans will agree with me on this.

        1. @rigi Actually a fight between team-mates is more exciting because they have equal equipment. When two drivers from different teams fight for WDC you cannot know which of them had done the best job, the victor or the loser, so that can be confusing.

          Here’s a list of all the seasons since 1982 that had only 2 drivers or less(runaway leader) fighting for WDC: 1984. 1985, 1987, 1988,1989,1990,1991,1992,1993,1994,1995,1996,1997,1998,1999, 2000,2001,2002,2004,2006,2009,2011,2013,2014. That’s 24 out of 33 or 72 percent!

          So were all those seasons boring? Some were, some weren’t. Some had brilliant racing between title protagonists and thru the field, some didn’t. Likewise, some of the seasons with more than two competitors fighting for WDC, on track racing was non existent and the only excitement came on the WDC table stats list

          To sum up: as in all fields, quality beats quantity IMO

    4. In more than two-and-a-half decades of F1, I can count the number of years I cared for the championship-battle on one hand. Doesn´t in any way mean the other years were bad, as long as there are good races, fights for positions, I´m fine. If it has one fight like Alo-Vet in Silverstone and one race like Montreal (though I personally would still rate the 2011 edition higher than this years race there), it´s good.

    5. @rigi I respect your opinion but to try and compare this year to last year is a bit unfair. If you cared to notice there were a lot if battles up and down the grid that kept a lot of people glued to the screen even in spite of Mercedes’ form. If F1 depended on the title battle believe me it would not have survived the Schumacher years and the Vettel years. So your Alarmist tone will not fool anybody. Thankfully F1 fans are more genuine than you will have us believe and the Sport will go on for decades as it has always done in the years that one team or one driver has dominated. And if we lose those fans who enjoy the ‘wham bam thank you mam’ kind of entertainment I think it will be a good thing because it’s these kind of fans who bleat the loudest and drag F1 through the mud whenever things deteriorate and bring up old controversies unnecessarily like the sound even though any number of polls have proved that the sound did not make much difference to the experience of watching F1. But these fans will ignore such evidence as all they are interested in is to bad mouth a driver or a team that is beating their favourite.

  3. It’s a shame Russia was on the calender it seems. Considering the next lowest score was a 5.47..
    The season would have gotten a 7.308, which would have been the second best season rating since the beginning of this feature.

    1. True, but you could probably say that about most seasons. We don’t have Valencia on the calendar dropping the scores down anymore (apart from the 2012 anomaly obviously). Russia was such a horrible race though on pretty much all levels.

      1. I’m not sure the Russian Grand Prix was interesting enough to be considered a horrible race….

  4. There was indeed lots of decent racing, although the Mercedes dominance limited the number of likely outcomes in each race and the season overall… And just the feeling that F1 continues to make itself more irrelevant through arcane rule changes and ever more circuits that nobody gives one about made me feel much less attracted to the sport this year.

  5. The season gone downhill rapidly after Merc drivers incident in Belgium, and then Rosberg made mistakes in Italy along with retirement in Singapore. And of course the tragedy in Japan, continued by miserable race in Russia.
    Fortunately F1 back in form in USA and Brazil, although not as high as the peak of this season, but atleast double points did not affect the title races and I love that both Hamilton and Rosberg respect each other after Abu Dhabi race.

  6. kpcart@iinet.net.au
    28th December 2014, 14:28

    one thing that has to be mentioned, the fans involved in this forum are not representative of the casual fans in the general population – they are more die hard fans here. read comments on other sites, so many people hate the current state of f1.
    i also think some of those races with high scores this year, retrospectively did not deserve such a high score, maybe people were exagerating their pride in f1 – in other series there is more racing every race, and then suddenly we have a good race in f1, and fans are taken so aback by it, like it shouldnt be happening! when infact it would be great if f1 had great races every race.

    1. I also suggest folks look up survey bias in Wikipedia… @kpcartYour comments are valid and point out a very important bias indirectly. This is predominantly a British site. A Brit won the championship. Just note the tone of the comments all year in defense of Hamilton or against Niko…

      The simple fact is, viewership of the sport at the track or on TV was way down this year – period. Only country it was maybe fractionally up (statistically indeterminate) was Britain… Come on its to the point where its hurting poor Bernie’s wallet!

      1. @indyf1fan Why are 2008 and 2009 rated as the worst seasons then on here then? You insult the British F1fanatics on here when you think we can’t rate races on their merits and not because who won… I believe we’re better than that.

        1. hmm explain the outcry when Hamilton wasn’t rated as the #1 driver for 2014 then? No wait don’t bother, we don’t need to open up that emotional can of worms.

          Again, data shows the sport is in decline – I hope its sorted and we get back to racing and technology advancing, event by event. Not year to year or rule change to rule change or worse yet, lawsuit to lawsuit…

  7. Trenthamfolk (@)
    28th December 2014, 14:33

    With a fan base a large and diverse as F1’s, you will never please all of the fans all of the time. As ever it’s the ones with the loudest voices that get heard the most – what happened to the engine noise debate? That went away pretty quickly once the racing got interesting… It gave the distinct impression the moaning was coming from people who felt they needed to fill gaps in the airwaves with their opinions. I thought this was a great season and I have never enjoyed the sport as much (although the Button championship year was a highlight for me personally). Long may it continue.

    1. tgu (@thegrapeunwashed)
      28th December 2014, 15:19

      @trenthamfolk well said. Two of the loudest complainants were Montezemolo (“It’s Formula Boredom”) and Ecclestone (a man who conducted a straw poll of one person before concluding that people didn’t like the engine noise); both walked out during the Bahrain GP, perhaps the most exciting race of the season. The sport seems to be in the hands of people who don’t really appreciate it.

      This year has been one of my favourite seasons, I hope those in charge don’t mess around with a great formula. They just need to make small teams a bit more viable.

    2. The engine noise debate is still there, but there’s not much that can be accomplished by complaining. I and many others will continue to watch F1 on TV, but have no desire to attend any more races in person, as the sound was always the most impressive thing in seeing them live. Time will tell if attendance falls due to the sound. I spent a lot of money going to F1 races, and I’m not anymore.

      1. Same thing for me. Love it on TV, will not return to the circuit until we get impressive F1 back……….

  8. There was a much bigger spread than the last two years. Only 2011 had a wider spread than this year, so it appears that when a race is good, it could well be absolutely amazing, whilst if a race was bad, it was generally absolutely dismal. The comments brought up by those who claimed that F1 this year was boring was quite clearly watching a different sport, or only watched Russia and China.

  9. Interesting how a race like Russia could only score 4.06, I was watching some clips from 2007 recently, and virtually every dry race was beyond dreadful. If races like Bahrain, Spain, France, Hungary, and Belgium 2007 happened in 2014, I doubt they’d be rated any higher than a 3. In fact, the racing in 2007 was so dreadful that a race like Silverstone looked mega because of a few leapfrogs in the pits and Massa carving his way through the field. Our standards of what makes a “great race” have definitely increased a lot in the past few years.

    1. @kingshark Indeed.. and how do we resolve rating inflation? If we can’t devalue.. this is what it’s like to be stuck in the Euro..

    2. The biggest problem in 2007 was the same problem F1 had since 1994 & that problem was refueling.

      When you go back & watch those races you see a series of sprints in which the primary racing objective was usually to pass the car you were racing in the pits. As soon as refueling was banned the primary objective racing objective was actually to race/overtake again & thats why from 2010 onwards the level of overtaking increased & the racing became more interesting.

      The problem with what we have now I feel is that everyone expects there to be 50 overtakes, 3 pit stops & a load of tyre-deg & that anything less is now considered boring.
      If we look at Russia this year, It wasn’t really that bad a race in that there was some overtaking & that there was some good racing through the field… However because it wasn’t constant action & because there wasn’t 50 DRS highway passes it was considered dull.

      Fans & F1 in general have become far too reliant on the gimmicks making ‘the show’ & that problem will only get worse for as long as those gimmicks remain.

      Look at the problem Nascar have got themselfs into, They threw gimmick after gimmick into there show (Restrictor plates, performance equality, tandem bump drafting, competition cautions, phantom yellow’s, chase for the cup & he monstrosity they had as this years championship system) & all that happened is that the fans who just want proper racing turned off & the casuals eventually lost interest so Nascar are now in decline. There stuck with a heavily gimmicked series which doesn’t interest the racing fans who just want some real racing & the casual fans who no longer care & are leaving as the casual fans always do.

      F1 shoudl drop the gimmicks as soon as possible & become a true & pure racing series again where you know that every bit of racing is genuine & every overtake was a real hard fought for & truly exciting overtake & not a tyre/DRS assisted/generated highway driveby pass.

      1. The biggest problem in 2007 was the same problem F1 had since 1994 & that problem was refueling.

        That’s not a good excuse. 2003 had refueling, yet the racing was great. In fact, just about every race in 2003 apart from Spain, France, and Monza was worth watching on replay. The biggest problem in 2007 was that the pecking order was static and virtually unchanged throughout the whole year. Ferrari and McLaren had a huge gap to BMW, who in return, had a hefty performance margin over Renault/Williams/Red Bull. In 2002, we had a similar problem of a static pecking order, only this time it was even worse with no team being able to challenge Ferrari. An evolving pecking order will always make F1 more interesting than a static one.

        1. I think it is, most seasons in the refueling period were boring, 2003 and maybe 2005 were stand-out years.

          I never understood why the Russian GP had a rating this low. I guess it’s because Rosberg ‘took an interesting battle away’ and because of Bianchi’s accident the GP before and not the racing itself.

        2. @kingshark Your right about 2003 but when you have a big change like we did in 2003 then you usually get a bit of an odd year.

          In 2003 we went to single lap qualifying on race fuel, the weekend format was changed with 3-4 teams getting an extra 2 hours of running on Friday morning with 3 cars & some of the more advanced electronics that were allowed in 2002 were banned for 2003 (Pit to car telemetry for example).

          Looking at the overtaking statistics, The number of on-track overtakes plummeted in 1994 by a lot as refueling came in & the figures stayed low throughout the refueling era (2003 saw a small increase in overtaking) & the overtaking figures went back upto pre-refueling levels when refueling was banned in 2010 (Which featured the most number of on-track overtakes than any year since 1989).

    3. @kingshark I think the tragedy of Jules and politics in Russia cause the race a very poor rating

  10. F1 Fanatic users rated each race out of ten* and the average score given to races in 2014 was 7.1 – a substantial improvement on last year’s average of 6.6. Five races were rated higher than last year’s best.

    I think there is a point which isn’t obvious in this statistic, which is that people who couldn’t watch the race may have refrained from casting a vote. Does your statistic include the amount of people who voted?

    1. @drycrust It would be interesting to see how increasing numbers of voters affects the voting vs. time and natural ratings inflation!

      1. @fastiesty Where I live most people don’t have the option to see F1 races, and the current long term strategy from F1 management is to discourage people watching races. Even F1’s own analysis said as much. As such, you may well be right, there could have been more voters, but I suspect the opposite is the case, that less people voted. Of course, a larger vote doesn’t automatically imply a larger F1 viewing audience, it could simply be a better appreciation of this website.
        Anyway, we wait for the numbers.

        1. I think it’ll be the latter, for votes on this site, but I agree that overall F1 viewership has remained static or fallen, as FOM seek to monetise viewers. Accurate numbers should be available at the F1 broadcasting blog. @drycrust

          1. @keithcollantine Any plans to do a “top ten F1Fanatic races, as voted for on site” pack for the new F1 online archive? Complete with Keith from WSR commentary.. Might help to drive viewers there too :)

  11. I miss Spa 2008 from this list.

    1. A lot of people had their enjoyment tainted by the stewarding decision.

      1. Even more had their enjoyment tainted by not being allowed to see a race.

  12. there was no race. when a car is seconds ahead of the rest what’s the point? Even if merc start from the pits every race they’d still win it if there are no car problems. Except for reading the news updates, I’ve stopped following F1 halfway through the season.

  13. Personally I hate it this year, stopped watching the qualification sessions cause I know the Mercedes are going to dominate the pole positions.

    I watched the races cause my favorites Alonso, and Button are in it.

    I would like F1 to go back to the 2008 era .
    I wish to see a rivalry like Alonso vs Raikonnen build up, cause then drivers had a chance to beat each other.

    1. you mean like Hamilton Rosberg’s rivalry?

  14. All 3 of the top rated races had a genuine and prolonged fight for the lead. No surprise there.

  15. Vettel didn’t win a single one of the top ten best GPs, the only Red Bull wins in this top ten list are from Ricciardo. Do we not like Vettel winning, or is it because he never really recovered to take an unexpected victory?

    1. I think from his 39 wins, there isn’t even one race that you get excited about Seb. He bores you to death in how he wins and they are all boring just like his fans lol.

  16. @KeithCollantine I have a few view points regarding the overall conclusion that the despite the critics the popularity of F1 has gone up

    1) F1 Fanatic is a co.uk based website where the possibility of the viewers from UK is higher than that of the rest of the world. While I understand that you have gained a global audience and I myself am from outside of UK, The sample is little skewed to accurately represent the Global Fan base. For example a website based out of Germany and Italy might represent a different picture altogether.

    2) In my opinion many average races had unusually high rating. German GP being one of them. In my comments in the Rate the Race of German GP was highlighted by Keith in the next day’s article as the two sides of opinion about the GP. I thought the viewers were very generous with 8 , 9 and 10 ratings

    3) Impulse voting. I suspect impulse voting could be a factor here since the Rate the Race is provided immediately within 5 to 10 minutes of the race where there is always a little bit of higher Adrenalin involved. Maybe the Rate the race towards the close of the day or 5 hours later could show a different opinion.

    4) Hamilton Fan base. IMHO I believe this website has a better Hamilton fan base than probably Vettel or others. had the tables been turned with Either Rosberg dominating or vettel in place of Hamilton , it would have produced a much lower rating. Last year whenever Vettel won a race i could read the comment ” Oh yeah it is a newey car” but i dont find anything like that this year where fans say ” Oh yeah it is a dominant Mercedes” when Hamilton wins.

    I watch most of the races on TV. so Engine noise is less of an issue personally. But my cousin had been to arace this year and quoted that the thundering sound of F1 is missing and that is something racing fans will notice when they watch the race live. So Engine noise might not be a be a big detrimental factor.

    I believe that DRS overtaking and few others along with the utter dominance of Mercedes was a factor that brought down the interest in F1 this year. At the year end when I look back at 2014 there are the 2 or 3 things that i remember.

    1) Absolute Mercedes Dominance [ Even cascading into near bankruptcy for Sauber and Lotus. ]
    2) Spa Tangle where Hamilton was crying like a child.
    3) Spectacular performance by Daniel Riccardo although he did benefit a little bit from from the Spa Tangle and reliability issue.
    4) Lots and lots politics. Too many things outside the race track and too few on the track.
    5) Competition in the midfield which is now Ferrari, McLaren, Force India (ouch !!!)

    If I look back, I would not rate 2014 above none of the last to years starting 2005. Even in the Brawn GP dominance of 2009 , Red Bull clawed back and the field was closer during the second half of the year.

    Have I given up on F1 ??? No. I hope things will get better next year.

    1. Amen, well said!!!

    2. @tmax

      F1 Fanatic is a co.uk based website where the possibility of the viewers from UK is higher than that of the rest of the world.

      That simply isn’t true. There is no reason why F1 Fanatic might be more difficult to access from outside the UK than within, barring local internet access restrictions which can also affect other websites (e.g. ‘the great firewall of China’).

      It is a source of constant amazement to me how many people make this fundamentally incorrect assumption about the impact of domain suffixes.

      1. @keithcollantine Interesting to note that you replied on the comment almost after 6 months.

        I never refuted the fact that the co.uk websites are any less accessible than a .com website from the US or the rest of the world. I even mentioned in my comment that I myself access the website from outside UK. The fact remains that a country based domain was created to provide a general affiliation to that nation. Although I understand your point that you could not register this as .com website and hence you had to revert to .co.uk domain name, to the general public it will be perceived as a “British website” as long as there are address bars in the browsers. Infact smartphone apps sometimes helps fill that gap. I am following your website for last atleast 7 or 8 years since the time you were doing it as a part time hobby. So accessibility is, was and will never be an issue ( Unless nations choose to do specific stuff like I read the news today that Cameroon wants to ban WhatsApp in UK !!!)

        To you point it is not an an fundamental incorrect assumption. It is a well nurtured market perception created by countries and the large internet players. Like If I land on Google.co.uk or Amazon.co.uk or BBC.co.uk, I am sure that it is catering to UK Geography. The big players have already set the rules of the game. The market perception has been created. While you can use other techniques like enhancing the page ranks to push the popularity above the normal it is sometimes the perception that remains. Sometimes it is good too. UK is the heart of F1 Racing so a website from that regions adds more credibility to it. Now you would have cold hard data which might prove that F1Fanatic has more hits from outside of UK versus inside of UK but then the perception of the general public is very different.

        If F1Fanatic had a .de domain name the popularity of your website might be slightly different in UK vs Germany. Even search search engines are optimized now a days to provide location based search results although a search on google.de for F1 Fanatic brings up F1Fanatic on the top of the search results which can be achieved through Page Ranks.

        Last but not the least Quality of the content matters above all these domain names etc. You have been doing an excellent job on that part. I appreciate that and hence I don’t think think the .co.uk domain will be any hindrance to your success. It is just the perception “British Website” like Honda or Toyota is a “Japanese Car” even if it is fully manufactured in the US.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Country_code_top-level_domain

        A country code top-level domain (ccTLD) is an Internet top-level domain generally used or reserved for a country, a sovereign state, or a dependent territory.

  17. You mean Hamilton fans, don’t you?

    Outside of the UK tickets and tv viewers and online subscriptions are lower than ever and you know that Keith.

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