Romain Grosjean, Lotus, Monte-Carlo, 2015

Grosjean did not brake earlier in crash – Lotus

F1 Fanatic Round-up

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In the round-up: Lotus contradicts Max Verstappen’s claim that Romain Grosjean provoked the crash between the pair in Monaco by braking earlier than he had on the previous lap.



Romain Grosjean, Lotus, Monte-Carlo, 2015Your daily digest of F1 news, views, features and more.

Lotus: Verstappen was “silly” in clash with Grosjean (Adam Cooper's F1 Blog)

"Verstappen did a bit of a brainless move. It was very obvious from the video."

F1 set for louder engines in 2016 (Motorsport)

"The plan is to make it mandatory for there to be two tailpipe exits rather than the current single one."

New FIA flexi-wing test explained (Autosport)

"It's been evident all season that a number of teams have had deflecting front wing flaps and in a few cases the cascade winglets too."

Vijay Mallya Q&A: Force India upgrade will bring regular points (F1)

"when the new package arrives between Austria and Silverstone I am pretty sure that we will see continuous points finishes at the subsequent races. "

Massa hopes poor Monaco was just a one-off (F1i)

"I’m very confident for Canada, I’m very confident for Austria, even for Silverstone. I think we’re going to strong tracks for us."

Comment of the day

Has Alonso made the right career move? James suspects so:

F1 has only one team now – Mercedes. And Alonso has come second a couple of times with Ferrari, so it’s no big deal to him if Vettel finishes second this year or next. The man simply wants to win and he needed, in my opinion of course, to make the move.

I find it particularly interesting though with Alonso’s comment, in light of the difficulties of McLaren, that being ‘an actor’ is an ‘essential’ part of being a F1 driver.
James Devon (@Tata)

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On this day in F1

The 1995 Monaco Grand Prix took places on this day 20 years ago. Check the site later today for a special feature on this race.

Also on this day F1 drivers-to-be Jacques Villeneuve and Juan Pablo Montoya scored Indianapolis 500 victories. Montoya, who won this year’s race last Sunday, scored his first victory in 2000, while Villeneuve’s came five years before that.

Villeneuve’s win, which he took in the last Indy 500 before the series was split into two factions, was unusual in that he completed 202 laps in the 200-lap race. He was docked two laps by the stewards who ruled he had overtaken the Safety Car on two occasions.

There was more controversy at the end of the race as leader Scott Goodyear refused to heed a penalty, also for a Safety Car infraction:

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  • 131 comments on “Grosjean did not brake earlier in crash – Lotus”

    1. If Max really thinks that, I’m loosing respect for him. He is a year younger than me, but that’s no excuse to not accept your mistakes.

      1. Ask yourself why does he thinks that? The video seems to confirm Max thought. Hell that is what i said when i saw it. Data shows he brake 5 m later offcourse he was hit then.
        Just watch the video and turn your sound up and what do you hear?

        It seems Grosjean lift his gas and that caught MAX out. So MAx thinks he was outbreaked he wasn’t in data but lifting gas is almost the same as breaking in F1

        1. You’d assume that must have been looked at by the FIA as well though – but this is the FIA we’re talking about.

          1. FIFA?



      2. just because he braked later, does not mean he didnt lift off the accelerator earlier, which is still braking, only not with the brake pedal. Max might still be right.

      3. You really disappoint me @jmc200 . Lotus are just defending their team. It is true that Romain braked 5m later, but the telemetry shows many more parameters, maybe Lotus is proud of fooling the stewards but I’m not going to get fooled by 1 stat. Max was bold but so was Romain, his trajectory was different from the previous lap, Romain blocked at the last moment, I don’t know if he lifted and coasted because I don’t have the telemetry but regardless, Romain shadowed Max with his defensive move, that’s very dangerous and Romain should be penalized for that. People are just having a go at the 17 year old.

      4. You are right. People should watch the accident from the other angle showing them from top. On-board cam from Max makes it look like Grosjean was changing direction and decelerating all of a sudden. It is called relative speed people. Moreover the track has bumps on it, race line avoids those bumps so Grosjean was on the racing line. And they are allowed to use a defensive line on track anyway.
        Also, even if Grosjean was braking earlier than everyone else, he was on old soft tyres and Max said that Grosjean braked earlier than the former lap when Grosjean braked actually braked 5-10 m later.
        We don’t have enough evidence to say RG was on the wrong here while stewards gave the punishment to MV. To say the team is defending RG is a bit absurd since what do you expect them to do, especially if they are right?
        Not nice of Verstappen to say he got brake-tested on live tv and social media, what disappointed me wasn’t the accident, it was the aftermath. That was when he should have been mature and not accuse RG of brake-testing him. That is a serious serious accusation! But I guess he later on spoke about mistakes, so if that is the case good for him!

        1. So now that we know that Romain not only braked 5 meters later, but also lifted off 5 meters later, where does it leave Verstappen? He said he wan’t trying to overtake Romain and applied brakes in the same spot as during the previous lap – meaning, he absolutely wasn’t slowing down 5 meters earlier. Well, that means that he was on course to definitely crash into Romain anyway, hadn’t Romain lifted off and braked later than usual (5 meters earlier).

        2. Sorry my mistake! He didn’t later on spoke about mistakes, it was an earlier statement before Monaco GP.

      5. The only mistake MV made was, he admitted that in an interview after the race, that he was caught by surprise when the car in front of him slowed down suddenly and significantly at a moment he was not expecting that. You and everybody else can call this a mistake.

    2. I have to say that Max is getting a lot of unwarranted stick here whislt Romain walks Scott free. I bet Romain knew exactly what he was doing considering he really didn’t want Max to pass him and a World Championship point was on the line. The guy moved twice, first right then left and I guess that’s what Max was trying to avoid. I would classify that as a takedown.

      1. What I’d say is: Max is getting a lot of unwarranted praise, the stick is totally warranted. The fault was his 100%. I’ll give him this, he did fight for position and he was brave, but quite unskilled. He didn’t manage a single clean overtake. Shunted Maldonado even though he was very slow and lost half his wing in the process. Bottas was fooled by the blue flags for Vettel, and I’m not sure if Sainz was also fooled or let Max pass on team orders. Grossjean was not fooled (he received a clear warning of the trick on team radio) and defended clear and fair, Max simply brain-faded and rammed him, end of the story.
        The worst part of it is Max’s claim that Romain brake-tested him. That is simply not true and telemetry proves it. If he can’t accept the blame for his own faults maybe he should go back to the kindergarten and return to F1 in a few decades from now when he’s grown up well enough.

        1. maarten.f1 (@)
          28th May 2015, 5:41

          I don’t think Verstappen ever claimed that Grosjean performed a brake test (unless I missed something?). He mentioned his own braking point was the same as the previous lap. That might imply to you as saying Grosjean performed a brake test, but it might be as simple as lifting the pedal. While not as effective as actually braking, it’s enough to create a big difference in speed.

          It’s interesting there are so many completely different opinions out there. Häkkinen, for example, said the penalty was too harsh as he clearly saw Grosjean take a different line and go at a different speed than the lap before, and that Verstappen kept enough distance.

          What’s also interesting is that people keep saying that it was an opportunistic move, while Verstappen said he wasn’t even attempting an overtake.

          Mind you, I don’t have access to the same data as the stewards. I do think a grid penalty is harsh (it seemed more like a racing incident to me), but that doesn’t change the fact he got one. Putting it all down to lack of experience is nonsense in my opinion, though. We’ve seen plenty of experienced drivers make mistakes. E.g., Button hit Maldonado in China and both spun off (almost taking Alonso with). And I recall Vettel was being called a crash kid while he had far more experience. Yes, Verstappen is still very inexperienced, but it’s not like more experience equals no mistakes. And to say Formula 1 is not for learning stuff is nonsense, you always learn things in Formula 1, whether you are inexperienced or more experienced.

          1. Yesterday Verstappen said Grosjean brake tested him:

            After an unlucky pitstop I was charging through the field before I got brake tested and had a hard crash into turn1!


            1. maarten.f1 (@)
              28th May 2015, 6:27

              @armchairexpert Thanks, missed that one. Well, if the data shows that Grosjean didn’t brake, then it obviously wasn’t a brake test.

      2. The way I see it is Romain was doing everything right: he was doing his own race, he wasn’t reacting to Max. Why does he have to react if there is another car on the same lap as him behind him? He only has to react if the car behind is actually ahead of him. Max wasn’t ahead of Romain, he was on the same lap. Just because Max has a new set of tyres doesn’t mean Romain has to change the way he was racing. There isn’t any rule that said Romain had to give way to Max. On the contrary, the rules say the onus was on Max to pass Romain within the confines of the track limits and race rules, and if he can’t, then like almost every other driver at one time or other in that race, he had to sit behind the car in front and wait for that driver to make a mistake.

        1. And Max was doing his own race too, for Romain too move twice in the racing line was wrong!

          1. He wasn’t moving on the race line! That is the race line! There are bumps on track in Monaco! Though he might have had a slightly defensive line that would have been perfectly acceptable.

      3. I’ve watched it over and over, and from the very moment it happened I (Frenchman) thought Romain braked or lifted up early.
        After re-watching the GP on Sky, I think Martin Brundle felt the same because of the surprised onomatopoeia he voiced when Grosjean brake.

        We will only be sure looking at the telemetry from Grosjean; looking at it, not just believing Alan Permane who is a part of Lotus.

        1. @jeff1s

          so it’s not OK to get an official declaration by Renault and confirmation by the FIA, you have to literally look at the telemetry by yourself?

          1. ResultantAsteroid
            28th May 2015, 11:38


          2. I’ve watched it over and over as well. Grosjean maybe doesn’t brake, but he definitely slows earlier if you compare it to other onboards. The cars decelerate significantly when lifting- that corner is one of the main harvesting points on the circuit, so maybe it wasn’t braking, but he did slow very early.

          3. @andrewf1

            I think there’s something on this particular crash that divides people: Grosjean too soon, Verstappen too late. As it became a big talking point for a mid-week, we need to know more. That’s F1.
            I ain’t say I’m right, just my point of view.

        2. Are you watching the on-board cam from Max? That makes it look like RG has suddenly stopped. You can also assume that Max was too fast and wasn’t breaking near enough. I am curious if Max would have made the corner anyway…
          Watch the angle from top.

      4. So your suggesting Romain deliberately had a car crash into him?

      5. A takedown, Really??!

        So you believe that GRO deliberately engineered a crash to take VES out?

        How did he know he wouldn’t also be taken out the race, or even seriously injured?

        1. @tonybananas yes, a takedown. There was only one point on offer left, he knew Max would pass him sooner rather than later and the point would be gone

          1. And risk his life to do so?

            I think you’ve been playing too much playstation

    3. Now THAT is a very very cool truck!

      1. Oh yeah.. That is one cool truck.

      2. That WEC transporter looks like something you could pick up right off the shelf at woolworths for your nephew at christmas time.

    4. I wonder what all the ‘Romain braked early’ commenters from yesterday are going to say!

      For me, Max needs to publicly apologize, not necessarily for the accident but for coming out publicly and blaming Romain for brake testing him. The kid made a mistake, big deal – once he apologizes, its water under the bridge. Folks need to lay off him – there are many talented drivers our there that deserve F1 seats – in fact, I would argue that to make it to F1 your better off being lucky and rich than being talented (your chances are better). He has a connected and loaded Dad – good for him. But lets not say he’s in F1 on pure talent, there aren’t too many drivers in F1 on pure talent – its never been part of the sport in the recent past.

      1. ResultantAsteroid
        28th May 2015, 11:48

        I personally don’t understand why some fans of any driver think he needs to be defended even when he makes a mistake. These guys know their job very well, but they are also human and they make mistakes (and hopefully they learn from them). The way I see it if I believe in a driver, I should be happier when he is in more challenging situations, as this gives him the opportunity to show me and others what he’s made of. They are not babies so that we have to defend them and sometimes some of us are even more pro-monarchy than the king himself.
        In Max’s case, admitting mistakes and apologizing is the first thing that shows a human being (not even a racer) is mature, no matter what your age is. I don’t wanna think this is the start of Max copying his father’s attitude because it’s still one incident, but I’m gonna keep an eye on this side of him in the future.

      2. @wowieee

        I wonder what all the ‘Romain braked early’ commenters from yesterday are going to say!

        That GRO might’ve lifted early?

        But yeah……..GRO might deserve an apology from VES.

        1. Never mind the early braking part.

    5. One for the turbo, one for noise. Probably the simplest way of doing that is using one bank of cylinders for each purpose I suppose?

      1. nope

      2. no, probably a separate one for the waste-gate @muzzleflash

        1. Okay that makes more sense. So this won’t put engineers in a position where they have to choose between noise and power?

          Seems a bit gimmicky in principle though, not far removed from the Jericho trumpets.

      3. Well I’m heading down to Melbourne for my 21st next year. If they have louder engines by then, that’ll be awesome.

      4. deliberately making louder engines seems like more gimmicky rubbish to me. F1 is heading down a very questionable path – the fundamental ethos of the sport is to make cars that lap as quickly as possible, not to bolt on showy extras. surely next they will mandate a flame spitting exhaust.

        for example, they should not kick up sparks unless as a consequence of some design decision to increase speed. the cars look ugly because it is the fastest ‘interpretation’ of the rules. the sound quiet because it is a better use of the current engines to rev low.

        this seems another clear case of dealing with the symptoms of the problem rather than the problem itself (if there even is a problem – word from monaco was that the cars are plenty loud enough and that the extra torque makes them more entertaining to watch/difficult to drive).

        1. ???? You cannot have an exhaust for a turbo the other for noise. Please read up on how an engine works.

      5. It doesn’t work really like that! I saw a video by the Spanish Alberto Fabrega explaining it! Basically the air that’s entering the engine by the sidepods and engine cover creates a necessary pressure in the motor, but it needs be limited or it would explode! So they have a valve (I think this is the right English term) that extracts the extra air into another tube connected to the escape.

        What they are planning to do now, is separate the tube that extracts the extra air from the escape creating 2 exits behind the car! My explanation it’s not very technical but you can understand the basics lool

      6. @muzzleflash The easiest way would be for the chaps from the strategy group and/or FIA to visit Nakamichi HQ and talk about mounting speakers on the cars.

    6. I expect Force India to have a very strong second half of season, this car (A-spec) is a very poor one, and they are 6th in the championship, so imagine a big update, they could be battling with the RBs/Williams like last year. It should be a McLaren/Toro Rosso/Force India battle for 5th in the championship. Let’s see.

    7. Michael Brown
      28th May 2015, 1:29

      I think the noise could be a bit louder if your there at the track, watching the race. However, the big issue is that after a whole year, the broadcasters still keep the volume of their feed incredibly low. You can barely hear the engine sound over the commentators, so you get the impression that the cars are weak.
      Did you know that Riccardo was shouting with joy when he pulled into Parc Fermé after winning the Hungarian Grand Prix? The camera was right next to him and even that couldn’t be heard thanks to the BBC’s mixing.
      Watch a race in the V8 era and the sound of the rev limiter makes it sound like the engine is going to tear itself apart. Now, we watch cars circulate a track with barely any sound on TV.

      1. ColdFly F1 (@)
        28th May 2015, 8:37

        keep the volume of their feed incredibly low

        Agree the noise when at the track is better (albeit a lot less than in previous years) than on TV!

        But a dual exhaust will not resolve the main cause of the less impressive noise. The new PU have a very powerful electric motor, and they use that torque more than revs to accelerate out of the corners. Especially when live at a race it always seems that they are in 1-2 gears too high, and you cannot resolve that with a second exhaust!

    8. “It’s been evident all season that a number of teams have had deflecting front wing flaps and in a few cases the cascade winglets too.”

      Most notably, Mercedes. So it was a little odd that the car they picked to accompany the story was Vettel’s Ferrari.

      1. I saw some slow-mo shots in Monaco, Ferrari’s was deflecting like a jelly as well. But if they can pass the new test, good for them and Mercedes as well.

    9. Really great race by Verstappen up to that point but this whole affair spoils it. Instead of accepting a mistake which nobody would fault him for as nobody expects a rookie, no matter how talented, to be mistake free, he goes on and says this. Note to Max: if you talk the talk you’d better walk the walk. Or in this case have proof. Since the telemetry showed quite the opposite you made yourself look like an idiot. That’s also a rookie mistake I guess

      Everything is a lesson. I hope Max learns from this and comes on even stronger in Canada. He has some overtaking to do

      1. +1 I hope he is mature enough though. I wasn’t really opposed to 17-year-old driver, but he should have the maturity required.

    10. Verstappen looks fast, but a bit rash and crash-prone. Much like Hamilton and Vettel early in their F1 careers, perhaps.

      1. ColdFly F1 (@)
        28th May 2015, 8:40

        crash-prone early in their F1 careers: and Massa and Grosjean and Maldonado (assuming that he is still early in his career).

    11. Romain may have braked 5m later into the corner.
      What they don;t tell you is that you is that he may have lifted off the throttle much earlier than that!!! We all know that lifting in an f1 car with Monaco levels of down force is almost like braking!
      It is very odd for someone to simply brake 5m later into a corner than they have been all race and still make the corner unless the speed before braking is slower

      1. No, I don’t think that’s correct. Going off throttle before braking is how they recover energy, before that start of last year there was some concern about closing speeds and drivers not being aware of a leading car lifting off. To give warning about lifting off they added a system where the rain light at the rear of the car flashes when a diver is not on brake or throttle. If you watch the incident again you’ll see Grosjean’s light does not flash.

        1. To be fair, you are correct in your statement of technology function. However what you fail to address is you dont know what mode RG’s car was in and if lifting shifted the car into heavy harvesting. Engine mode will determine whether or not that rear light flashes, not simply lifting. Did RG lift at an earlier point? You dont know, neither do i.

          1. +1 This is spot on!

            Nevertheless, Max was a bit over excited to overtake him. It was a race incident, but if someone was to blame, it had to be Max.

            1. ColdFly F1 (@)
              28th May 2015, 8:43

              +1, @favomodo.

              But the real mistake Max made was that stupid Instagram message blaming RG of brake testing him.

            2. Max wasn’t trying to overtake. He said himself that he wasn’t planning to overtake. The only reason he jerked the car right was to avoid grosjean but it didn’t work and they crashed. Max obviously didn’t do it on purpose but it looked like his fault, because he should have been aware of the fact that grosjean could be lifting off to fuel save before breaking. All drivers do it now. So it was max’s fault but I still don’t think he’s too young. He’s shown some great things so far, and he’s proving to be a lot more mature than most 17 yos today . I think it was just a one off miss judgement , grosjean himself has many in 2012

        2. pxcmerc (@)
          28th May 2015, 6:07

          coming off the throttle is engine braking, but if they had access to the telemetry they might have been able to account for it. Max looked greedy the whole way in to the barrier though. He’s lucky he didn’t get a good knock to the head.

      2. Why does it seem odd? Maybe Grosjean was a bit early with the brakes on the previous lap, so this lap was where he was supposed to brake. That difference of 5 metres equates to less than 1/5 second time difference at the speeds they were travelling at.
        The simple fact is Verstappen hit with such force that he broke both the front wing and the front wheel tie rods (or whatever they’re called).

        1. ColdFly F1 (@)
          28th May 2015, 8:54

          @drycrust, even less; top speed there is 275km/h (link), which is 76m/s.
          Thus 5 metres is only 1/13th of a second, or 1/4th of a ‘blink of an eye’.

          I agree that MV made a mistake, but impressed nonetheless that he reacted that quickly and almost mover around RG! He clearly wasn’t blinking his eyes ;)

      3. Grosjean not only braked 5 metres later than on a previous lap, he also lifted off 5 metres later:

        .@RGrosjean didn’t brake test @Max33Verstappen, he braked 5m later than previous lap. Data accepted by FIA so the penalty was for Max not RG

        Final word on this for the many people asking, @RGrosjean lifted off over 5m later than the previous lap and braked 5m later.

        1. Thanks for clearing up. I still can’t believe it, but I guess facts are facts. It looks like he lifted very early, but there you go.

          To me the greatest shame was grosjean on the team radio not asking if his racing colleague was ok but instead calling him stupid.

          1. I think that was quite normal reaction from RG and they don’t even broadcast all transmissions, so we wouldn’t know even if he did ask. What’s worse was Verstappen’s accusation I think. I think the reason it looked like RG braked earlier might be the on-board cam from Max. From different angle RG looks quite normal actually. And I’m saying this because I had the same thought until I saw it from a different angle. Bare in mind that racing line is weird because of bumps they avoid.

        2. @john-h

          Yeah, that was rather ironic. How many people did Grosjean hit at Monaco 2012? 3? And that was right at the start before they even made it to the corner.

        3. Are we headed for a show and tell of the telemetry in the drivers’ press conference in Canada?

          1. Reminds me of Trulli showing pictures to Sutil in press conference, after 2009 Brazil I guess? LOL

        4. Yup, RG was not gonna giveaway that point. But if Max Did complete a clean overtake, that would be spectacular.

          Small wonder sky did not suggest Nico Rosberg engineered LH44 pitstop.

    12. I don’t buy this. Why would Grosjean choose to brake later all of a sudden? And why was he moving about in the braking zone if he was doing his own race?

      1. I don’t buy this.

        Well, I guess they’ll have to reopen the investigation now!

      2. Please help me! I don’t get this: “Why would Grosjean choose to brake later all of a sudden?”

        A guy drives F1 car around streets of Monaco in a race known as Monaco Grand Prix. Another racer is trying to overtake. The first thing that comes to my mind is braking as late as possible. Now this is the part I desperately need a huge help to comprehend. Am I mental if I think late braking is right thing to do or someone else has a serious problem?

        1. @ sharoncom When you’re driving at Monaco and defending, more than late braking, it is important to tame the right line. It can’t be a late apex entry because you’d be dive-bombed, and an early apex entry would compromise your exit, unless you found a way to hang the chased out to dry, which incidentally would involve braking early so that you would make the corner, but to use up the space to prevent an outside pass. Grosjean’s line-shifting suggests he thought about a tight, early-apex defence, but braking later than normal with such an approach would result in compromising his exit, and in a tight corner like Ste. Devote, he may have actually gone off into the escape road or hit the barrier.

      3. He chose to brake later because he had a (faster) car stuck to his gearbox and braking earlier or in the normal place was likely to cause a crash! Verstappen was following too closely to react to Grosjean slowing for the corner and moved right to try to avoid him. I don’t think it’s more complicated than that.

        I still think that the reason Grosjean’s car was moving was because his wheels were on the pit exit line.

      4. Isn’t there bump there that they all avoid???

      5. @wsrgo Don’t you dare use facts in a discussion. I think it was Maldonado his fault honestly.

      6. GROS isn’t a driver who is constant with his lap times. He is a driver who drives like to try different angles of he just was slower or he made a little mistake that turn. That would suprise MAX as he is really a clock with his lapes. Still Max should be braking a blink sooner evading Gros and got Gros after the turn as Gros was out of shape. So Max really drove to close and there for into Gros.
        Which was too bad as i think he would got him after that.

    13. Perhaps Verstappen was at fault more so than Grojean. However i lose zero respect for Max. The data may show that Romain applied his brakes 5M later compared to the previous lap, but by my own naked eye saw RG brake pretty early. I Realize i’m wrong but i couldn’t even come close to calling Max dangerous.

      1. Verstappen wasn’t “at fault more so than Grosjean”, he simply was at fault. How difficult it is to say “I was wrong”, instead of trying to move the goalposts?

        1. Its very difficult if you believe you’re in the right. That’s what standing up for yourself is all about.

          1. And admitting your mistakes comes with maturity. You need to find the right balance in order to both stand up for yourself and admit when you are in the wrong.

      2. That’s confirmation bias. Verstappen says Grosjean braked earlier; looking at the video you try to gauge Grosjean’s braking point with the perception that it was early for that corner. At some point you have to accept the data is better than the naked eye and Verstappen’s perception.

    14. Maybe RG lifted early and never needed to brake earlier! Did Lotus comment on an early lift?

      1. Final word on this for the many people asking, @RGrosjean lifted off over 5m later than the previous lap and braked 5m later.

    15. Although I feel Max was partly or even mostly to blame here, I cannot understand how it’s possible for Grosjean to defend the tighter inside line AND to brake 5 meters later than normal at the same time. It does not make sense. Perhaps Grosjean lifted but we don’t have data available about that.

      1. +1. Exactly what I tried to explain. Unfortunately it seems others have suddenly become experts on driving on tight tracks.

      2. They also said RG lifted 5 m later. Maybe his previous lap was too early. Problem is MV said that he braked earlier than that previous lap.

      3. I studied the whole thing compared to a previous lap where onscreen graphics were available and we could see their braking points. Grosjean didn’t brake earlier. Max kept his foot on the gas longer than other times. That why it seems like the Lotus braked earlier. Normally we couldn’t know but luck brought it we had onscreen graphics two laps before and when the accident happen we were onboard with Max and could hear when he lift of the gas and braked. From that it’s obvious he was still on the gas at a point he was already braking in previous laps.

    16. Why did we only learn about Lotus’s evidence on Wednesday? How about a bit of communication from the so-called FIA and stewards, beyond the useless “Car 33 caused a collision so we’re giving him a grid penalty”?

      1. Well, normally people don’t question the decisions this much. But people couldn’t believe it was Max’s fault or something…. Lotus had to make several twitter announcements. Though I would personally like to be informed about every incident.

    17. I think I’m in the minority that agree this is Max fault and the penalty is fair. After watching the replay again, I don’t see Grosjean do anything wrong. He may look moving right and left, but it’s simply because that is the racing line there (to avoid bumps on the start/finish straight) and Max is also moving right and left although slightly less than Grosjean. Max simply don’t realize than Grosjean in used soft and he new super soft so naturally the braking point for them is different. We now know the fact that even Grosjean braking later than usual and yet the video still gives the impression of him braking early so that means Max is simply too fast there and I think he actually forgot his own braking point because too focused on closing in to Grosjean. Try to compare the accident with Hamilton pole lap (link below) and you’ll see Hamilton also moving right and left and brake around same point as Grosjean. I actually start to believe that without Grosjean, Max probably won’t be able to make the turn.

      For now, I just hope Max can admit this is his mistake and learn from it. I don’t want to call Max the next Massa in the future i.e. the man that always said all crashes is other party fault.

      The accident: (from @starstrike link)
      Hamilton pole lap:

      tl;dr version: Max’s rookie mistake, and he should accept it and move on.

      1. Maybe, maybe not, but take a look at this footage:

    18. pardon my ignorance, but whats wrong with flexing front wings? Why does it need to be “super stiff”?

      1. @djdapimp this goes back many years where RBR were taking advantage of the wing rules and their wings bent so much on a straight that they were gaining more speed than their competitors and then it bent back in place for the corners. So back then, the FIA introduced flexiwing tests to ensure that the edges of the wings were tested as well as the middle of the wings. It looks like there might be some murmurings in the paddock that some teams are using flexi end plates… I guess it never ends ;)

        1. Correct me if I am mistaken, but I thought that the front wing flap adjuster on the Red Bull allowed for the “flexing”. The wing and wing structure itself was actually stiff. (I know, splitting hairs)

          1. Michael Brown
            29th May 2015, 0:26

            Yes, that was the original rule. Red Bull’s wing passed the flex tests aimed at those specific parts of the wing, but other parts were able to flex during the race.

        2. i mean why not just allow everyone to flex equally as much instead of no flexing if that makes sense. Is there a safety concern or something??

      2. @djdapimp Because one of the most important rule in F1 is “no moving aerodynamic device”. Even DRS need to have its own exception clause in this rule.

    19. Martijn (@)
      28th May 2015, 9:23

      You have to wonder why there is such limited info on the Max and Romain incident. Brake info ok, but where’s the throttle and steering wheel info? But in the end we can only hope Max does not in any way changes his behaviour on track cause then we run the risk him turning into the average driver we have so plenty off nowadays.

    20. It’s not just the brake point which matters though. If Grossjean release the throttle earlier than usual it would have the same effect.

      It’s lucky Verstappen didn’t take off like Webber did when he had a similar coming together with Kovalainen.

      1. Final word on this for the many people asking, @RGrosjean lifted off over 5m later than the previous lap and braked 5m later.

    21. Funny that lotus is using words like silly and brainless with romain en pastor as their drivers.

      1. Hypocritical maybe; but that doesn’t mean that others on the grid don’t do things that could be considered silly and brainless.

      2. +1

    22. Know anything about this Keith?

      According to reports in German media the CEO’s of Mercedes, Dieter Zetsche, and his counterpart at Renault, Carlos Ghosn, have met on the morning of the Monaco GP to discuss ways of ousting Bernard Ecclestone. According to Ralf Bach, Ghosn explained that Renault wants to be present as a works team by 2017, but cites Ecclestone’s departure as a requirement for that step. All three manufacturers are reported to blame the declining interest in F1 on Ecclestone’s dictatorial style and his refusal to bring F1 to the new media.

      Ferrari and Mercedes have so far already presented a unified front against Ecclestone. If Renault now joins the alliance, Ecclestone’s old tactics of divide and conquer may soon be rendered useless and CVC will sooner or later be forced to show the old man the door.


      Source is in comments section (cited as Ralf Bach working for Bild)

      1. pure speculation…

      2. History always shown again and again that divide and conquer always works, especially for Bernie’s favor.

      3. This makes sense doesn’t it? Bernie has milked F1 with pay-TV and circuit fees, which work against sponsors and teams.

        He made teams dependent on his distribution of money and then biased it to break up FOTA.

        Bought off FIA with the hopeless Strategy Group which also divides the teams, and then badmouths the engines all day long.

        The sporting spectacle is questionable with Charlie’s little fixes, the money thing, and blatant tobacco sponsorship for ONE team. It always has been of course, but it all mounts up.

        Meanwhile the coverage is hopeless. We can’t even see ES state or usage. Live timing is another grasping little earner instead of free. F1Access is pathetic and doesn’t even link to the app or have a driver tracker. The TV director isn’t that great. We can’t see half of what the drivers are doing with all their temperatures and GPS. They’re all bitching about ‘the show’ while not even maximising what they already have.

        So Bernie’s day surely is over. Once upon a time, when being charming yet hard as nails was what mattered, he was great. But the world has moved on and become more complicated.

      4. This is the first time that I hear his name is “Bernard Ecclestone”. LOL

        1. ColdFly F1 (@)
          28th May 2015, 20:16

          Bernard Charles Ecclestone.
          or BCE commonly known as Before Common Era, hence his outdated view of the world ;)

    23. I can not make up my mind who is to blame for the Verstappen Grosjean crash. I was reading comments and started thinking about the difficulty to do the move there. It has been said many times that the first corner is the “best” place to overtake but then I could not remember many passing attempts there recently, except the start of the races. Were there any overtakes this year ? I tried to find some videos from older races and theres a few here

      Anyway, after watching couple of those videos it seems that for example Hamilton who succeeded againts Schumi back in 2011, could trust in Schumi not to make anything stupid in front of Ham. Maybe Verstappen was just too optimistic going against Grosjean who has always defended, sometimes been too aggressive defending. I think had Verstappen been quicker and on bettter tyre against the likes of Button, Alo or Rai then both cars would have made it atleast the middle of the corner. Last Sunday could have very well ended in tears, Max´s car could have launched in the air and over the barriers. Ifs and buts. So I guess I still do not know who to blame, maybe Grosjean for aggressive defending and Verstappen for just being too optimistic. Verstappen will definitely learn from this. Will Grosjean ? So it is 50/50 from me then.

      1. Confirmation bias.

    24. We already know that Grosjean didn’t brake early from the evidence, but even if he did so what? Since when was it against the rules to brake early, drivers do it all the time, whether their cars ability is different or to defend a corner against an overtake, they even hesitate coming out of a corner sometimes to stop the other driver from getting on the power a bit earlier. The point is it is the driver behind that has the responsibility to not crash into the other driver ahead. Max didn’t do that, in fact from the speed of the crash it looked like he was very late on the brakes (like Rosberg was in Sochi kind of thing). He’s a young driver and often young drivers will make mistakes, I don’t understand why so many people are finding it hard to believe that it was he’s fault, even after the team has told us that Grosjean braked late and the stewards have punished Max.

    25. Will the proposed changes mean the engines will be less powerful? I know that if a turbo car is louder, normally that means that less of the exhaust energy is being transformed into kinetic energy in spinning the turbo etc so if these cars become louder by utilising one exhaust for noise and one for the turbo then surely the turbo is getting less power? Surely you can’t have both noise and the same amount of power, there must be a trade off somewhere.

    26. I had to smile at Gary Hartstein’s tweet. Of course FIA’s structure is exactly like FIFA’s, and equally guaranteed to make the institution corrupt.

      1. Maybe Bernie and Sepp are working on plans to swop jobs . . .

    27. Every single day I read comments about Alonso’s situation, either from him or F1 fans, and there is no doubt in my mind that Mclaren can build a winning car, but every single time this comments appear I have the impression that everyone is missing something, if he finds himself in a winning car the first thing he has to do is to win against the other side of the garage. Probably Button won’t be there next year, but lets no forget what happened last time around he was in a Mclaren.

      1. ColdFly F1 (@)
        28th May 2015, 13:46

        @johnmilk, but don’t forget that he is currently still the F1 driver with the best track record of beating his team mate. Without checking the details I believe the tally is 13 out of 14.

        1. Schumacher pre-Mercedes era?

        2. Absolutely @coldfly but that doesn’t mean that him or anybody should undermine his team mate, specially when we don’t even know who is going to be

      2. Maybe he will prefer Button as his teammate just in case. But that would also be interesting since I’m not sure how it would go between them.

        1. Button is a very interesting case. I think he’s even more underrated than I actually thought.

    28. There is no need artifical amplification. I don’t support it.

    29. So many people, so many perceptions. If so many people base their opinion on the on-board cam from Verstappens car and claim that Grosjean brake tested him and/or went of the racing line, then why can’t Verstappens perception be the same? This given the fact that his view likely was nearly identical to that of the on-board cam.
      To me this is a racing incident and nothing more! Many are overreacting.. I wonder why.. ;)

      1. Yeah and if you thought the car in front was approaching too fast, and since the car in front has said to be braking normally, it means Max was going too fast.

    30. Carlos Sainz also had his ‘moment’. Luckily he was able to continue, but it could have been just as severe as with his teammate and Grosjean.

        1. Wow. I think we saw the end of it replayed during the race. I wonder what they were showing us at the time it was happening…. Or why didn’t show us all of it.

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