The result of the Italian Grand Prix remains provisional as Mercedes are under investigation for a possible tyre pressure technical infringement.
Technical Delegate Jo Bauer reported that Lewis Hamilton’s left-rear tyre was 0.3PSI under Pirelli’s specified minimum starting pressure, while Nico Rosberg’s was 1.1PSI below the specified minimum pressure.
The matter has been referred to the stewards who will now investigate the incident and decide if any infringement has occurred and if any post-race penalty should be applied to Hamilton or the team.
The Technical Delegate’s report is as follows:
On the grid and after the 5-Minutes signal the tyre starting pressure and tread surface temperature of the left hand side rear tyre were checked on car numbers 44, 06, 05 and 07 and were compared with the specifications of the official Formula One tyre supplier. The specification for the minimum starting pressure is 19.5 PSI for the dry weather rear tyres and the maximum tyre blanket temperature is 110 °C for all dry weather tyres.
The tread surface temperature of the left hand side rear tyre of car numbers 44, 06, 05 and 07 was within the specification of the official Formula One tyre supplier.
The measured minimum tyre starting pressure of the left hand side rear tyre of car numbers 05 and 07 was above the specified minimum tyre starting pressure.
The measured minimum tyre starting pressure of the left hand side rear tyre of car number 44 was 0.3 PSI below the specified minimum tyre starting pressure and the measured minimum tyre starting pressure of car number 06 was 1.1 PSI below the specified minimum tyre starting pressure.
The tyre pressures were checked with the calibrated tyre pressure gauge of the official Formula One tyre supplier on all four cars.
I am referring this matter to the stewards for their consideration.
Update: Hamilton has been cleared and keeps his win
2015 Italian Grand Prix
- A unique atmosphere: Going to the Italian Grand Prix at Monza
- Perfect Hamilton wins Driver of the Weekend
- Little action in 2015 but Monza remains a favourite
- Mercedes investigation a “misunderstanding” – Pirelli
- 2015 Italian Grand Prix team radio transcript
Malik (@)
6th September 2015, 15:00
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeees :D
rudi (@rudi)
6th September 2015, 15:02
Noooooooooooooooooo – Give LH a 25sec penalty!
Mr win or lose
6th September 2015, 16:31
Yeah, so in 30 years or so we could tell our grandchildren about how amazingly close this finish was. :D
Schmorbraten (@schmorbraten)
6th September 2015, 16:32
If they measured it before the race, why were the Mercedes even allowed to start the race? After all, the minimum pressure is supposed to be a safety precaution. Imagine Rosbergs tyre letting go at the exit of parabolica causing a huge crash – did they really make all this fuss about the pressures so that in the event of an accident, the FIA is able to say “yeah we knew he was unsafe to race but we let him anyway”?
Apex Assassin
6th September 2015, 16:42
No time penalty for breaching Safety Mandates. It’s a DQ unless they set a new precedent today…
Stig Semper Fi (@stigsemperfi)
6th September 2015, 15:09
@Malik, I may not celebrate so soon. Ferrari are allegedly involved in this as well.
Liam
6th September 2015, 15:11
Nope… Ferrari are fine.
Malik (@)
6th September 2015, 15:12
@stigsemperfi: I am afraid to say that this is incorrect :D
petebaldwin (@petebaldwin)
6th September 2015, 15:14
No they aren’t. They’re in the clear. I’m a Hamilton fan but if I’m being honest, if he does get a DQ, it’s perfect for the Championship battle. It would have been an unfair gain for Lewis over Nico today anyway with his DNF.
David BR
6th September 2015, 15:21
But another 2 such events and Hamilton losing the championship because of them, you’d still be happy? Careful what you wish for.
petebaldwin (@petebaldwin)
6th September 2015, 15:43
Yeah of course but in reality, it’s still Nico against Lewis and I’d rather them win it on track than via DNFs. Today would have handed Lewis a huge advantage because of Nico’s engine problems making him slower all weekend and eventually DNF.
David BR
6th September 2015, 15:52
Hamilton did absolutely nothing wrong all weekend. Being disqualified for a 0.3 pressure deficit on one tyre that made absolutely no difference to the race outcome? It makes the entire race seem pointless.
And Williams? What a joke. They fit the wrong tyre and virtually nothing happens, but they want Mercedes disqualified for an error made under Pirelli’s own supervision?
petebaldwin (@petebaldwin)
6th September 2015, 16:04
Being a little under weight or using a tiny amount more fuel wouldn’t have affected the race either. The rules are the rules and if they were under the limit, they were under the limit.
Bahman (@bahman)
6th September 2015, 15:36
Don’t hold your breath. If LH gets a DQ, NR will get one as well, i.e. will be carried to the next race for him. If anything this would put SV in a close battle for 2nd place vs NR.
David-A (@david-a)
6th September 2015, 15:50
They won’t DQ Rosberg in Singapore, he’d be disqualified from wherever he was classified today.
Simon (@weeniebeenie)
6th September 2015, 15:59
Uh no, DQs don’t work like that. @bahman
Bahman (@bahman)
6th September 2015, 16:02
Of course, they won’t DQ him, but i guess he will get some sort of penalty
David-A (@david-a)
6th September 2015, 15:21
Indifferent. While a breach of the rules may indeed be worthy of a DQ, nothing has happened yet and I would prefer an on track race win for Ferrari.
kpcart
6th September 2015, 15:27
maybe with Mercedes having the right tyre pressures, Ferrari would have been closer in the race, like in qualifying. this is a bigger advantage Mercedes had then being 1kg underweight at the end of the race, a time of infringement teams have been disqualified for.
ruliemaulana (@ruliemaulana)
6th September 2015, 15:03
Pay Symonds trying hard not to be too exited when he says this should be punishable by disqualification.
David BR
6th September 2015, 15:30
Always something faintly disreputable and dispiriting about people looking to gain something blatantly undeserved.
ruliemaulana (@ruliemaulana)
6th September 2015, 16:07
I think disqualification is inevitable judging form what happen to two GP2 drivers.
David BR
6th September 2015, 16:26
Maybe so. However Williams fitted the wrong tyre at Spa and probably should have been called in to re-swap. That was their own mistake. This tyre difference looks like a marginal error, more importantly made under Pirelli supervision. I just find it nonsensical and baffling that the tyre manufacturer can supervise a process and then find that the process breaches their own stipulated level. And the team then get penalized. But maybe that’s just me.
Park
6th September 2015, 16:40
Williams will only lose more points to Ferrari.
pastaman (@)
6th September 2015, 21:45
The same could be said about a team ignoring technical directives.
Bigasshammm
6th September 2015, 15:03
Deflategate lives on :(
JCost (@jcost)
6th September 2015, 15:09
Oh yeah.
Would be a shame, but rules are rules. I’m impatiently waiting for the decision.
Saints (@saints)
6th September 2015, 15:24
Did anybody see Tom Brady sneaking around on the grid?
David Not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard)
6th September 2015, 15:31
Deflategate…I laughed like mad – COTD!
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
6th September 2015, 15:03
BTW the penalty for a technical infringement is usually disqualification.
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 15:10
Is it a technical infringement? Stewards refer to pirellis rules, not the technical regulations. Incorporated by reference, perhaps.
Luca (@)
6th September 2015, 15:22
Evans and Canamasas were disqualified from Qualifying session for that reason http://www.crash.net/gp2/news/222652/1/evans-and-canamasas-excluded-from-gp2-qualifying.html
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 15:30
Seems like a definitive precedent and also fair notice to Mercedes.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:44
@luca
That was post quali scrutineering, Merc’ was pre, FIA should have banned Merc before the start if they knew.
Mads (@mads)
6th September 2015, 15:51
@9chris9 Such a decision might require a little more discussion then what could be done with minutes to go before the start.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 16:02
@mads
Yes the process would take a long time.
Read tyre pressure
Is pressure less than 19.5 specified by Pirelli?
Read next tyre pressure.
The pressure was read just before the 5 min start warning so it’ll obviously take till 6 laps before the end to make a comparison of 2 numbers per tyre.
Stewards seem able to make judgements on much more obscure infringements during the race, like the 5 second stop and go in the opening laps.
Tyler (@tdog)
6th September 2015, 15:16
I wonder if a driver has ever achieved a grand chelem and then been DSQ’d?
CountryGent (@countrygent)
6th September 2015, 16:08
@gt-racer It’s a slam-dunk. Mitch Evans and Sergio Canamasas were disqualified from GP2 qualifying for the same offence. It is indefensible – the stewards are probably signing off the disqualification as we speak.
William Stuart (@williamstuart)
6th September 2015, 15:04
Is it possible the team, rather than the drivers are punished. Maybe a fine, but if Mercedes are deliberately doing this then maybe it wouldn’t be harsh enough.
Calum (@calum)
6th September 2015, 15:06
Hamilton used an illegal car to win though.
You can’t just let the drivers keep the points. Looks like a very unprofessional error by Mercedes.
larry onyekwere
6th September 2015, 15:34
are u kidding me? does mercedes fill the tires before they get to the grid start?
Baron
6th September 2015, 16:56
Yes
pastaman (@)
6th September 2015, 21:48
They don’t “fill” them, but they do set the pressures
Albert
6th September 2015, 15:12
@williamstuart
Why should Hamilton be excluded?
Mads (@mads)
6th September 2015, 15:23
@williamstuart The driver is a part of the team. If he does something illegal the team is punished and vice versa. Trying to differentiating the two from each other seems wrong to me. They are a team and they should win and loose as exactly that.
zicasso (@zicasso)
6th September 2015, 15:59
By punishing the car their punish the team and driver by default. I am a LH fan but rules are rules. If he is disqualified that will lesson learned and a warning to other team.
I am of the view that if you fine the team instead of car therefore driver then money will talk and it will create a precedent where the deep pockets will break the rules and gain advantage because they can afford to do so and that wouldn’t be fair.
zicasso (@zicasso)
6th September 2015, 16:01
*they
Kribana (@krichelle)
6th September 2015, 15:05
They reported:
At the start: Lewis left rear tyre pressure was 0.3 below the required pressures. Rosberg’s left rear was 1.1 lower than the required.
Seriously, Mercedes, you have an advantage and you still try to minimize the pressures…
Ed
6th September 2015, 15:14
An they were told this at the end of the race?
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:17
FIA knew this before the race started. they should have stopped /disqualified the vehicles before the race started. Else why bother checking?
Kribana (@krichelle)
6th September 2015, 15:26
(@9chris9
Yes, at the end of the race, Ted said that on Sky F1. However, Toto Wolff said that nearly at the end, they started to survey tyre pressures. It’s a pity, because Hamilton did a fantastic weekend, and to be stripped the win is really a pity…
maarten.f1 (@)
6th September 2015, 15:27
@9chris9 As explained by Crofty, the team will get the opportunity to appeal. Take them out of the race, there’s a risk you take them out for nothing. For example, if Mercedes can prove the equipement is faulty (not likely, but still) they should obviously not be disqualified.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:39
@maarten,
Yes but that could have happened at the start of the race & both cars could have Been black flagged before the end meaning we could have seen both Williams on that podium, or both Ferraris on the podium at Monza, or 3 Ferrari (1 former) drivers on the podium, vs an ilegal car unlikely winning an appeal coming first.
I’m a Merc fan and would rather they had not finished if it was known before the race their car was illegal.
maarten.f1 (@)
6th September 2015, 15:50
@9chris9 No, it couldn’t happen at the start. There’s very limited time for all that (it’s checked when the blankets come off, so that’s only moments before the start. Hence the reason they cannot check all cars and tyres), and if they black flag both Mercedes’ and it turns out the reason doesn’t hold up, there’s a completely different problem.
It’s never good to see a race being decided in the steward’s office, but Mercedes should have a fair chance to appeal.
And besides, perhaps they won’t get disqualified and just receive a time penalty. Who knows?
@dmw As for the safety issue. I’m sure the extreme pressures and cambers are a safety issue. But I can’t imagine that being 0.3 psi under the limit is really a safety issue (not sure about being 1.1 psi under the limit though).
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 16:14
@maarten
How long does it take to compare 2 numbers?
Read pressure
Is it greater than 19.5
Stewards react to race events during the race, an example being the 5 second penalty handed out at the start.
Maybe FIA should have published their findings as they where taken and we could have seen it on screen, hundreds of millions of viewers could have notified FIA before the formation lap, not like the FIS notifying Merc 6 laps from the end after the tyres where changed.
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 15:41
But this is a safety issue, based on the threat of a blowout at 220mph. It wouldn’t be taking them out for nothing. And MB would be hard pressed to complain since they were one of the teams demanding a change for safety. However this comes out, the failure of the Fia to act in a timely manner doesn’t look good.
David BR
6th September 2015, 16:04
None of the leading teams wanted the pressures changed as a solution, it puts the tyres outside the optimal range (designed by Pirelli).
medman (@medman)
6th September 2015, 15:05
.3 psi disparity should not be a penalty that changes the race result, that’s for dead sure. That race was never in doubt. If they want to fine Mercedes, so be it. But to alter the result would be asinine and utterly preposterous.
pastaman (@)
6th September 2015, 21:52
In a sport with tolerances of various units in the thousandths, .3 PSI is NOT a small disparity
Oletros (@oletros)
6th September 2015, 15:05
Do we have something like Australia 2014?
TMF (@)
6th September 2015, 15:07
looks like it
bosyber (@bosyber)
6th September 2015, 15:16
But in Australia 2014, Red Bull got multiple warnings, and were asked to correct it. If they hadn’t, RIC would not have been disqualified.
So if FIA/Pirelli measured before the race (on the starting grid!), why not tell Merc. to immediately pit for tyres that did comply. Now they knew of an issue, and only told the team when nothing could be done about it any more.
I don’t know, FIA will be FIA. Would be good for championship points if he gets DSQ, but wouldn’t really improve the WDC fight.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:20
A Ferrari win in Monza.
What conspiracy theories could be made of that?
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 15:06
30s time penalty coming right up.
Calum (@calum)
6th September 2015, 15:08
Woe is me. Tyre discussions in F1 are just the worst thing.
Certainly seems as though Mercedes have mucked this right up.
dutch in sweden (@dutch-in-sweden)
6th September 2015, 15:08
Reading on a Dutch site that Ferrari faces a simulair rapport for for tyre over-pressure.
Mark (@marlarkey)
6th September 2015, 15:46
Ferrari were also investigated but they were cleared
anon
6th September 2015, 15:58
Ferrari were not investigated. A check was done on the tyre pressures and tyre temperatures of both Ferraris and both Mercedes, Ferrari were within the limits, Mercedes were not. Mercedes were then reported to the stewards.
Albert
6th September 2015, 15:09
Ferrari confirmed to be within limits.
Manule
6th September 2015, 15:09
No time penalty can be applied in this case. Time penalty, drive through, and stop-and-go are all for breaching the sporting regulation. Tyre pressures are either qualified as technical regulations, and thus must be adhered to or banned from the race, or it’s just a recommendation from the tyre manufacturer, and can be ignored with undetermined (by the rulebook) consequences. So, if it’s a breach of tech regulations, then Hamilton must be disqualified. If it’s just a disagreement with Pirelli’s recommendations, then it’s probabl just a slap on the wrist or a financial penalty.
UnitedKingdomRacing (@unitedkingdomracing)
6th September 2015, 15:36
If I remember correctly RBR got a time penalty for an technical infringement in monaco a few years ago.
petebaldwin (@petebaldwin)
6th September 2015, 15:09
I think it’ll be a DQ having heard more about it now. They were checked on the grid and were both under. Ferrari were both over. There is nothing to defend.
The good news is that it means both Mercs fail to finish and brings Vettel right back into the title fight! This is the perfect result for the Championship….
ColdFly F1 (@)
6th September 2015, 15:20
Mercedes’ defence is:
1) It’s (only) a recommendation by Pirelli.
2) Not defined when tyre pressure should be measured. Mercedes argues that even if before the start it might have been lower; during the race it was within limits.
Ivan B (@njoydesign)
6th September 2015, 15:51
Two GP2 racers were diqualified after the qualy for having lower pressures, so there is a clear precedent
Philip (@philipgb)
6th September 2015, 15:21
It’s a joke result though, I’d sooner have double points decide.
Mouse_Nightshirt (@mouse_nightshirt)
6th September 2015, 15:09
Such a shame if disqualification is applied, but rules are rules.
Alex McFarlane
6th September 2015, 15:11
Seems odd to me that the tyres have to be inflated under the supervision of a Pirelli technician yet something like this could happen.
What was the technician doing?
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 15:33
Some one from Mercedes took the tires into the men’s room before the race.
Melvin (@)
6th September 2015, 16:03
But nobody saw what they did there. And f1 never told mercedes that they could be disqualified if they were below, so they are in the clear.
Baron
6th September 2015, 17:01
@thetick
That’s a very poor defense. Not knowing the rules is Mercedes’ fault, not the FIA’s.
JayR (@deidunxf1)
6th September 2015, 17:01
This really is the COTD. I laughed so hard at this.
David BR
6th September 2015, 15:44
Chewing gum again?
kpcart
6th September 2015, 16:37
Mercedes probably tricked the Pirelli man by heating the tire extra… or maybe they are just not telling the truth. in any case, there tyre pressures were monitored again later in the race, and Mercedes were still under pressure, so it seems like they have done it themselves.
Stig Semper Fi (@stigsemperfi)
6th September 2015, 15:12
Wouldn’t be funny if he was given a 25 second penalty. Going by the timing sheets he would win by 0.042 seconds. One of the closest finishes in F1 history!
Evans
6th September 2015, 15:16
Merc team thought that the penalty will be 25secs. That’s why they told Lewis to push hard the last few laps to make sure they would have the 25secs buffer and he just made it.
Iosif (@afonic)
6th September 2015, 15:14
Well if a time penalty is applied and Lewis loses the win, for example a 30secs penalty, it will be laughable, if could have easily made a much larger gap if they warned them earlier than 6 laps to go.
Some say that disqualifing Mercedes would “save” the championship, which seems locked on Lewis’ side now, but I’d rather see races won in the track, I doubt 0.3psi in one tyre would make such a difference, more like a mistake on Mercedes’ side than a deliberate attempt to cheat.
Pawel (@marik)
6th September 2015, 15:41
As mentioned on Sky F1, 1 mm wider wing is a DQ, so why letting Mercedes to go away with 0,3 psi? And Rosberg was 1,1 under.
Iosif (@afonic)
6th September 2015, 15:46
And now that I’m thinking about it again, it could influence tyre wear quite much.
Pawel (@marik)
6th September 2015, 15:59
I think it’s more about grip, lower pressure is bigger contact path.
Anyway, rules are rules.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:49
If the FIA knew a wing was out of spec BEFORE A RACE, you’d expect the car to be banned before the start, not after the podium ceremony?
Pawel (@marik)
6th September 2015, 16:04
Yes, but it takes away a chance of appealing if DQ turns out to be unfounded.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 16:31
Shouldn’t had at DQ’s if there is chance of appeal.
John M
6th September 2015, 17:18
The tires weren’t under pressure when fitted. This was stated by Mercedes and Pirelli throughout. Running illegal wing is a design decision; tires dropping under min pressures while sitting on the grid is normal and if they tested all the teams their pressures would have differed wildly from the pit pressures and the running pressures. It’s intellectually dishonest to compare this situation to illegal wing.
Pawel (@marik)
6th September 2015, 21:01
I have written this before stewards’ decision. Rob Smedley said that pressure drop after taking blankets pdf the tires is quite slow because of high mass od rubber and high air volume.
If stewards say it was a normal pressure drop, I’m absolutely OK with it. And I wonder if it’s plausible to eliminate influence of temperature, for example by corelating pressure and temperature of the tire or by measuring pressure in let’s say 25 degrees. Would be more complicated but maybe more accurate.
Steven Robertson (@emu55)
6th September 2015, 15:14
It it was just on starting sets of tyres, it never gave Rosberg any advantage, he was stuck in 5th by the time he pitted. He used his 2nd set to blitz past the Williams and catch up onto Vettels gearbox.
JAM
6th September 2015, 15:25
Its really silly, if a driver dominants practice, takes pole and win a race with 0.3psi below on just one tyre is disqualified. Three days of checking technical data and Stewards can disqualify and driver, I suggest everyone stop watching F1.
kpcart
6th September 2015, 16:38
whether they have an advantage is not in question, whether they broke rules is, and it seems they have.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:15
If it’s a safety issue then FIA/Pirelli should have stopped the cars before they started. As such this cant be safety related.
To disqualify Lewis now makes a mockery of the rules and regs.
Tyler (@tdog)
6th September 2015, 15:19
No, to have a car in breach of the technical regulations (if in fact that is what has occurred) and then not apply the requisite penalty would be a mockery. Limits that aren’t enforced are meaningless.
Macademianut (@macademianut)
6th September 2015, 15:22
If the tyres were filled in front of the Pirelli engineer and he approved it, and then it dropped on the grid, there’s no way to put air back. So, it is not clear if such a procedure is even valid for measuring.
Also, is measuring tyre pressure just when the blankets are taken off a standard procedure?
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 15:29
They knew the car wasn’t in spec before the race started. They should have been stern then and banned both cars right then. Would also have meant Williams and other teams would have had more TV exposure, which is the commercial point of F1.
Very lame to now take the victory away.
larry onyekwere
6th September 2015, 15:39
what technical regulation? who made it so? isn’t this psi jargon a recommendation to FIA and the teams after the bow out events of spa? typical f1.
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 15:26
Imagine if hamilton had a blowout. My view is that the stewards were trying to decide if it is a technical rule or a Pirelli rule. Obviously no one thinks it is safety related in any event. As you say they would have been at least required to change the tires and start from the pits. I predict this will end up like the fuel sample rule created after Canada 2013. there was a technical bulletin or letter or whatever, but then they made it into a rule afterward.
chris (@9chris9)
6th September 2015, 16:29
Tyre pressure is safety related as a reaction to the blow outs at spa.
Ben walls
6th September 2015, 15:16
Should be the same penalty Bottas got for their tyre blunder. Williams team should count themselves lucky if any different
Baron
6th September 2015, 17:05
Not really, as Williams hurt themselves more than they helped themselves with that goof and Bottas’ tyres weren’t outside the regulated parameters.
Simon (@weeniebeenie)
6th September 2015, 15:17
If they only checked four cars and not the whole field can’t Merc argue that in itself is not fair? What if others were too low but not checked?
William Jones (@williamjones)
6th September 2015, 15:23
Random testing is a well established principle in sporting refereeing, I doubt they could argue it was unfair, unless you want to give Armstrong back his 7 tour de france titles as well.
petebaldwin (@petebaldwin)
6th September 2015, 16:11
It is a valid point though. They all have sensors on them – all could be easily checked! The admittedly small set of data today suggests 50% of all cars tested today were non-compliant!
William Jones (@williamjones)
6th September 2015, 16:13
Don’t forget though that the teams sensors are not independantly calibrated and well, the data is fed into their computers. If that was the source of data to catch cheats, the cheats are just going to manipulate the data.
Mads (@mads)
6th September 2015, 15:35
@weeniebeenie That is how nearly all the technical regulations are enforced, as well as drug testing on the drivers.
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
6th September 2015, 16:01
@weeniebeenie They will be doing random checks on the grid along with monitoring the telemetry of all the cars & tyre pressures (And temperatures) will be part of the data the FIA get.
Jason Miller (@flatdarkmars)
6th September 2015, 15:17
Oh dear… If Hamilton is excluded, George Lucas will have to release an edited, CGI-enhanced, “Special Edition” podium ceremony.
William Jones (@williamjones)
6th September 2015, 15:19
And he’ll somehow manage to make it much worse
Jason Miller (@flatdarkmars)
6th September 2015, 15:22
Naturally. This time, instead of “Han shot first!”, it’ll be “HAM finished first!”
TimmyA (@timmya)
6th September 2015, 15:18
What a joke seriously FIA get your stuff straight ruin this race result just another reason pirelli needs to go. Higher pressures don’t solve the real issue junk tires.
Mads (@mads)
6th September 2015, 15:37
@timmya The rules are the rules. It’s Mercedes fault that they didn’t comply. What anyone thinks of the tyres is an entirely different matter.
Uzair Syed (@ultimateuzair)
6th September 2015, 15:19
Mercedes are one of the worst F1 teams on the current grid in terms of making mistakes. The car and the drivers (mostly Hamilton) are good, the others are mistake-prone.
Nick (@npf1)
6th September 2015, 15:25
They’re the worst at designing cars, running them, keeping them reliable and to be honest, I think Hamilton might deflect to McLaren soon.
Nudge nudge, wink wink.
Baron
6th September 2015, 17:07
@npf1
Hahahaha, good one.
Atticus (@atticus-2)
6th September 2015, 15:24
I wouldn’t mind a disqualification – either for Massa’s win or for the championship situation for that matter.
James (@jamesjames123abc)
6th September 2015, 15:25
I imagine this would result in disqualification for Hamilton, seeing as other technical infringements in the past have lead to disqualification. For example, Ricciardo in Australia 2014 over the fuel-flow limit or both Saubers in Australia 2011 over their rear wings.
At least it’d keep the championship fight fairly close, but it’d also mean that Vettel wouldn’t be able to celebrate an Italian GP win in a Ferrari in front of the tifosi…
Mysticus
6th September 2015, 15:37
They said they will not use FIA flow meter device and calculation up front! They were warned for not to… They went for it despite warning, not the same!
Alex McFarlane
6th September 2015, 15:28
Can I put forth conspiracy theory of the day?
This will be the last Monza GP, Hamilton gets DQ’d so Ferrari get the win for the history books.
;-)
Iosif (@afonic)
6th September 2015, 15:38
Monza stays for 2016 as well, the discussions are about 2017 and later.
Alex McFarlane
6th September 2015, 15:41
Ah ok my bad.
kpcart
6th September 2015, 15:31
the most interesting thing about this race was the podium – seeing the crowd, and and this wait on hearing Mercedes get excluded. apart from that, what a boring race. motogp at Silverstone in the rain last weekend, now that was a race.
ChrisJ (@chriju0411)
6th September 2015, 15:35
If only Merc had used a single medium tyre on the left rear for the start there would be no sanctions…
topscot (@topscot)
6th September 2015, 15:39
makes you wonder what else they push the boundaries of and if this is just the one they have been caught for?
Melvin (@)
6th September 2015, 15:39
So this link was on this site, http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/pirelli-warns-teams-not-to-flout-tyre-pressure-rules
And one check on the grid reveals both mercedes drivers are under the pressure limit? That seems like a big team mistake. I highly doubt lewis wasn’t going to win the race if the tyres were above the limit.
TribalTalker (@tribaltalker)
6th September 2015, 15:58
@thetick – and just one tyre each out of whack; an imbalance might be an advantage at a banked oval, but at Monza where it’s all about the straights? It doesn’t sound like they gained an advantage to me, but maybe someone here can comment on whether the specific low-pressure tyre could have afforded some significant edge?
TribalTalker (@tribaltalker)
6th September 2015, 16:01
@thetick – on re-reading the infringement notice, it looks like the Technical Delegate only checks one tyre per car. So ignore my argument above!
Simon (@weeniebeenie)
6th September 2015, 15:40
So is there actually a rule in the book they’ve broken? The F1 website says
Pirelli don’t write the rulebook, they can’t enforce anything, can they? Guidelines are just that, guidelines.
kpcart
6th September 2015, 15:48
well drivers in gp2 got excluded yesterday from qualifying for exactly what Mercedes did. I assume the same stance will be taken here.
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
6th September 2015, 16:03
@weeniebeenie Pirelli give the guidelines to the FIA & the FIA then regulate them.
This was done after Silverstone 2013.
Red Andy (@red-andy)
6th September 2015, 16:33
Pat Symonds addressed this point on Sky. The relevant area of the technical regulations states that teams must run the tyres within the limits specified by the manufacturer.
As it’s a technical regulation, the appropriate punishment for breaking this rule should be exclusion from the session.
Neil (@neilosjames)
6th September 2015, 15:41
Looks more like a silly mistake than a deliberate attempt to cheat… but, even if you only accidentally do 38 in a 30 zone, you still get done for speeding…
mark p
6th September 2015, 16:00
I know what the FIA will do a 1000 grid place penalty for the next race which Merc will use to introduce 2 new engines so they have 3 engines for 7 races and as others will take penalties after them they will start 11th and 12th.
William Jones (@williamjones)
6th September 2015, 16:07
But after all the penalties are applied for the race, the Mercs will end up a couple of places ahead of where they qualified anyway, they will paint a special grid slot ahead of pole position for the race
larry onyekwere
6th September 2015, 15:45
i dont really understand this tyre jargon and noise. isn’t the new psi just a recommendation from pirelli to FIA and the teams given the blow outs accounted in Spa? when has it turned into an enforceable regulation/breach of technicality? besides, do mercedes fill the tires with nitrogen before the grid start or is it pirelli. the whole scenario smells funny!
Dave (@)
6th September 2015, 16:56
The regulations state the tyres must be run within the manufacturer’s recommendations, and have done since Silverstone two years ago.
mark p
6th September 2015, 15:49
I know it should be a dsq but it changes nothing for the title unless 0.3 psi is a 30 second gain at Monza over a race as Mercedes have a healthy advantage over Ferrari. As a Ferrari fan I would not class it as a win and celebrate like crazy but then Merc did not win either. Only Merc to blame the rule may seem silly but they knew the rule and even if it’s an accident for both cars to have the issue means only Merc to blame for me.
Illusive (@illusive)
6th September 2015, 15:50
What if they are given grid penalties for next race?
TribalTalker (@tribaltalker)
6th September 2015, 15:53
So one of Hamilton’s tyres, before the race started, was 1.5% under a Pirelli recommended pressure and it means he may be disqualified. Yet in the previous race, Bottas drove on a mismatched set of tyres (a clearly stated infringement) and only got a drive-through. Seems disproportionate to me.
mark p
6th September 2015, 15:57
FIA+ Pirelli + Teams = Laurel & Hardy.
‘Thats another fine mess you got us into’
Jason Miller (@flatdarkmars)
6th September 2015, 16:00
Admittedly the whole situation is clear as mud, but I believe the difference is that Bottas’ penalty was for a breach of the sporting regulations, while Hamilton’s would be for technical regulations. The FIA makes the situation worse by not openly publishing Technical Directives, and there is some vagueness as to whether Directives carry the same weight as Regulations.
TribalTalker (@tribaltalker)
6th September 2015, 16:02
@flatdarkmars – thanks for that!
Martin
6th September 2015, 19:15
I’m very surprised that they have all these regulations for tyre pressures, cambers and temperatures and not one for “you can only run one compound at once” :S
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
6th September 2015, 16:53
@tribaltalker What happened with Bottas at Spa was am infraction of the sporting regulations & the penalty for that is a time/drive-thru penalty.
The tyre pressures are regulated by the technical regulations & the penalty for an infraction of the technical regulations is disqualification.
JayR (@deidunxf1)
6th September 2015, 17:10
Same as their penalties for different drivers in Hungary. How Lewis and others got the same number of points on their licences that Maldonado did is beyond me. Pastor got a penalty while serving another penalty for heaven’s sake. Bizarre.
MaxV
6th September 2015, 15:58
Just to give some perspective. These pressure differences are very small. 0.3psi = 0.02 bar and 1.1 psi =0.075bar.
measurement
First of all what is the accuracy of the gauge used by the FIA? By Pirelli? Is is a true relative gauge, meaning no influence of outside air changing? If it is an absolute gauge the measurements need to be corrected, but with added error for abs. pressure measurement.
changing temp influence
The temperature is a key and big factor for the pressure. So the temperature at which both measurement is done is relevant for the measurement equipment and “tyre pressure spec”‘. And, very important, is the temperature stable / steady state or transient in the tyre is self.
Few considerations for temp variation:
– during filing with air a compressor is used, with different then ambient temp. Dont know about the nitrogen, but potentially more room for temp influence on the tyre during fill.
– driving on the tyre from pit is a transient heat cycle
– tyre blanket..warming up, half on, half off etc.
In the end it is simple physics
P1 / T1 = P2 / T2 as volume is constant. Calculation in S.I. units, means Temp is in Kelvin (reduces mathematical influence), P in Pa.
Lets assume Pirelli / Merc did a good job and the tyre is soaked in the blanket at the limit of the pressure.
T1= 383 Kelvin (110 degree tyre warmer)
P1 = 134kPa
So what temperature drop is needed to realize P1 Lewis (-0.3 psi) and P2 Rosberg (-1.1psi)?:
Temp2 Lewis= 378.4 Kelvin -> 5C degree in tyre temp drop only
Temp2 Rosberg= 362.7 Kelvin -> 20C degree drop, possible, probably..
Thats not leaving any room for measurement error or non steady state etc. So the reality will be less clear, meaning a worser case for the FIA.
I think Mercedes capitalized to a max. on the unclear rules and uncertaintities. Give engineers room to play, they will play ;-) Gotta love F1.
lockup (@)
6th September 2015, 16:01
Clearly they should have had the team bring the tyres up to a safe pressure before letting them race on it. Then they could start thinking about penalties.
Ural
6th September 2015, 16:11
First, this was not a technical breach. It was 0.3 psi below what Pirelli recommend because if the blowouts in Spa.
Regulations specify a different lower pressure. There is no technical breach, there is a safety concern.
Now all measuring equipment can be off by 10% unless calibrated to a standard. No standard was defined in the rules, and it should . Pirelli initially recommended 18 psi for this race before practice and qualifying runs. Latter they increased it to 23 and backef off. Not sure about the pressure measured at the start of the race. But based on facts they would be 22.7psi above the 18psi in the regulations.
So, to all incorrectly stating that Mercedes breached the rules, please settle down. It really doesn’t matter as the only ones to judge the situation are the Stewartess at Monza and the FIA. Your opinion, like mine are just hot air.
David BR
6th September 2015, 16:34
Thankfully it’s the FIA stewards, a bunch Hamilton can rely on not to take a victory away from him after the race…
Jules Winfield (@jules-winfield)
6th September 2015, 16:34
Yes, sir. I’ll be sure to be quiet now. Sorry for any offence.
Albert
6th September 2015, 16:39
Thanks Sherlock. But guess what? That’s what forums are for.
ural
6th September 2015, 17:36
Like I stated.
You may have your opinion.
Facts are:
Pirelli filled the tire with air.
facts are, Mercedes did not touch the tire afterwards,
facst are, Mercedes did not get penalized.
Based on facts, all the hot air in here was irrelevant.
What makes this win critical and important, is that Hamilton is on to break the greatest records gotten by any driver, that’s Senna.
Schumy was a fake champ, as when he raced against Sena, not even when MS cheated was he able to win over Senna, as Senna ran circles around MS.
Vettle is a cry baby that can’t handle real competition.
So kudos to Hamilton and Mercedes.
Dave (@)
6th September 2015, 16:59
And the technical regulations state the tyres must be run within those recommendations. So yes, it is a violation of the technical regulations.
Paddel
6th September 2015, 17:37
Actually there is a factual difference between a simple recommendation from Pirelli to the teams (e.g. Pirelli recommending a 2 or 3 stop race in Spa) and this case. Regarding tyrepressure, Pirelli did not simply give a recommendation which the teams are free to adhere to or ignore, Pirelli advised the FIA directly to enforce an absolute minimum tyrepressure for all cars at all times in regards to safety concerns.
In light of those safety concerns, the FIA accepted Pirellis recommendations and issued an official directive before the weekend, so as to make the tyrepressure minimum enforcable.
As a FIA Directive is generally regarded as an addition to the technical regulations, any breach of the tyrepressure minimum is now a regulatory infringement, which is usually punished by DSQ. Sorry mate thats how the rules are set, and its’ the same ruling procedure they followed after Silverstone 2013 if i remember correctly.
I’m just sitting here asking myself why MERC would try to exploit this minimum when they’re so far ahead anyway. It’s not like HAM wouldn’t have won today if they’d even put an extra 3-4 psi in to the tyre just to be safe.
DaveW (@dmw)
6th September 2015, 16:14
Tech reg 12.5.3 says (paraphrasing) the fia may make such rules as necessary to alter the contact patch of tires for safety, at the request of the tire supplier.
So there is an ostensibly relevant technical regulation. But The rule, whatever it is, is not that the tires have to make the minimum at all times. This may be why there were no black flags. Question is going to be whether Mercedes changed the pressure after the supervised fill up. Lowe says they did not. Seems that if Pirelli was involved in filling the tires, and no rogue Mercedes staff tampered with them, it will be tough to book Mercedes.
Adam (@rocketpanda)
6th September 2015, 16:19
I’m not a fan of wins being decided after the race – as I’m sure nobody is – but if they broke the rules, regardless of circumstance, then surely it’s a slam-dunk? Can’t say it wouldn’t be bad for the championship – might actually make it a touch less dead.
The only weird thing is if the FIA were aware the tyre pressures were wrong shortly after the race started why did they let them carry on? Surley that’s what the black flag is for.
Well, other than to create this ‘tantalising’ drama.
Ural
6th September 2015, 16:22
Correction, Pirelli recommended 19.5 psi at the start of the race. Hamilton had his tire pressure at 19.2.
This was done within the last hour before the race.
So, given the fact no standard reference was specified, and that is all above 18psi stated in the regulations. The most probable outcome is a 5sec penalty, a grid penalty next race or a monetary fine if surging happens at all.
Ural
6th September 2015, 16:23
This is more a Pirelli goof thank anything else.
Ural
6th September 2015, 16:24
Sorry guys for misspelled words, auto correct on my phone went haywire today.
Duc Pham (@ducpham2708)
6th September 2015, 16:24
It’d be a bit harsh on Lewis and Mercedes since they obviously dominated the weekend, but if the stewards do indeed decide that this is a technical infringement, then I guess DQ is out-of-the-question.
When a racing fan look at 0.2 or 0.5 seconds in the timesheet over a lap, the difference may seem massive. I have to once in a while remind myself how tiny, tiny that time is. Drivers and manufacturers compete over fractions of a second. So even the smallest technical issue on the car has to be evaluated and punished.
Ural
6th September 2015, 16:28
Like stated here, Pirelli was the one actually going air before the race to the teams specs. The pressure difference measured in the tarmac can be a result of the ideal gas law. Hence no consequence to Mercedes seems likely.
Dustin Hodges
6th September 2015, 16:44
Mercedes knew they cheated and pushed at the end to avoid losing when a 25 sec. Penalty would be added… that is cheating with intent and planning. Should be DQ’d from event. Mercedes cheated- punish them. What does a 25 sec penalty do? Nothing, no ramifications, therefore it would not hinder future cheating. Take away all points and they won’t do it again.
Philip (@philipgb)
6th September 2015, 16:56
They’d been made aware they were being investigate near the end. They could have made that gap at any point in the race without running the risk of ‘hammer time’ laps at the end if they knew throughout the race.
Ivan B (@njoydesign)
6th September 2015, 16:48
Aside from the tyres, this is what got me thinking – Mercedes asked Lewis to whip up the pace, putting engine in “strut 3”, getting more output, i.e. the magic button. Will that have an effect on the future races, I wonder? After all, he had it for what, about 10 laps? Will that affect the reliability of this engine?
RedEaredRabbit (@redearedrabbit)
6th September 2015, 16:52
Possibly, yes. Given the lead he had, the usual tactic would be to turn the engine down to keep performance for future races.
If the new Mercedes engine is as reliable as the one it replaced, you’d think it is probably not going to make a huge difference but then Rosberg only had a few more laps to do today….
RedEaredRabbit (@redearedrabbit)
6th September 2015, 16:48
I do feel sympathy for Mercedes if their drivers end up being penalised for this.
After the race at Spa, when VET raised concerns over tyres, Paul Hembury gave his usual response of dismissing any possibility that the tyres might be to blame and said it was all Ferrari’s fault for running the tyre for too long.
Then at Monza, Pirelli changed their minds about tyre pressures several times and basically looked like they had no idea what they were doing and we’re just making it up as they went along.
If Paddy Lowe is to be believed, Pirelli checked the tyres were ok when they were inflated before the race.
Apparently they checked them later, on the grid, and found them to be below required pressure but did nothing about it. If it is dangerous to run a car at that tyre pressure why did they allow the cars to run at all?
At the moment, I don’t see how any team can have confidence in their tyres while they are being supplied by such an incompetent organisation.
If anyone deserves a fine, it’s Pirelli.
Alex McFarlane
6th September 2015, 16:55
Still watching the Sky coverage. Anthony Davidson summed it up when asked if this kind of issue has cropped up in WEC:
“No.”
His explanation makes most sense, that as far as safety goes the running pressure of the tyre is more important than the starting temperature. Only in F1 could they spend hours debating a 0.3 psi level.
Latest: no penalty, from Toto Wolff.
Ivan B (@njoydesign)
6th September 2015, 16:55
Okay, no penalty. Whatever.
Michael Brown
6th September 2015, 16:56
It would certainly leave a bad taste if Hamilton lost the win. But rules have to be enforced, regardless of feelings.
William Stuart (@williamstuart)
6th September 2015, 16:56
No penalty for Lewis
Resort2Spa (@resort2spa)
6th September 2015, 16:57
NO PENALTY
Duc Pham (@ducpham2708)
6th September 2015, 16:58
Official : No penalty for Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton.
Is Ferrari, Williams or any team feels that the “violation” affected its team and appeal, it can still be reconsidered.
However, with the dominance of Mercedes this weekend, appealing would be a bad image for any team.
John Well
6th September 2015, 17:00
“Toto Wolff has just told reporters that there will not be a penalty issued against Mercedes and Lewis Hamilton” – skyf1
Evans
6th September 2015, 17:00
No penalty given. I must say Merc seem to get quite a bit of leniency from the FIA. The FIA could have given them +25 seconds which would have let Lewis keep his win while stopping any chance of others repeating the indiscretion.
David BR
6th September 2015, 18:48
What indiscretion, given that they followed procedures correctly?
In fact, if the tyre pressure was a bit too low because their tyre temperature was lower than the other teams, because they’d taken the warmers off earlier, that could actually be considered putting themselves at a disadvantage at the start, surely, with cooler tyres?
Ragnar
6th September 2015, 20:50
Penalize cheaters of technical aspects! – Make it known, that cheating will not be tolerated. If the tire pressure is below acceptable values, add at least twice the time advantage most likely gained. If the advantage is 1 sec per round, add 2 sec. per round of the race.
T
7th September 2015, 9:19
So the race is in Italy, the tyre company is Italian the team to benefit the most from “an infringement” is Italian.
Was the guy who took the pressures on the grid Italian? IT STINKS !!
David
10th September 2015, 16:10
I haven’t read all the comments, but most. I am confused why even with only 5 minutes to go they could not have required Mercedes to add pressure to the under inflated tires before the start of the race. Especially give that temperature effects tire pressure. I would be interested to see ALL the numbers. What was the surface temperature of the Ferrari tires? Was it higher than that of the Mercedes tires? If the tire blankets were off the Mercedes tires for a longer time (allowing them to cool more) than the Ferrari tires, that could account for Mercedes pressures being below minimums. Pressures should likely be check BEFORE the blankets are removed so that the temperature remains consistent.