Horner expects no progress for Red Bull in 2016

F1 Fanatic Round-up

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In the round-up: Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says the team will be just “treading water” in 2016.

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Comment of the day

Ecclestone is pushing for louder F1 cars but RogerA doesn’t want to lose what’s good about the current engines:

These current power units are amazing bits of kit that are producing a lot of power (the Mercedes is what somewhere around 900bhp now?) and for the first time in over a decade actually challenging the drivers in terms of the torque and drivers actually having to manage the throttle. not since the pre-traction control v10s have the cars been moving around so much under acceleration with wheelspin and drivers having to modulate the throttle rather than just putting there foot down without much worry.

I would not be against a bit more volume but I don’t feel that volume should come at the expense or be pushed as been more important than overall performance.

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31 comments on “Horner expects no progress for Red Bull in 2016”

  1. The question is if they will publicly bash TAG or Renault for the engine this year.

    1. They’ll bash anyone and everyone, and at the end of the year, Horner will come out and say it’s not good to do dirty laundry in public.

    2. Or you could both grow up and see that they made very accurate comments indeed despite being the team ‘everyone’ hates.

      1. ColdFly F1 (@)
        4th January 2016, 6:33

        I’m not one for New Year’s resolutions.
        But notwithstanding; for me in 2016 all teams/key people in F1 start with a clean slate.
        – Monisha can prove how good she is in managing a team with a relatively small budget;
        – RBR can show that fun and success can go together in F1;
        – Kimi is again a successful ex-WDC racing in a great team together with another great driver;
        – and Pastor’s crash tally is back at zero!
        @rethla, @xtwl

        1. – and Pastor’s crash tally is back at zero!

          Pastor will never be at zero, just a temporary glitch whilst someone fixes the clock to work with a leap year . . .

          Are we counting the start of the season as the first race or “pre season” running (yes I know, I said pre-season)? Because I am sure Maldonado will not have an issue busting up in preseason ;)

    3. I think Renault put it in the contract that they are not allowed to bash the manufacturer @rethla!

    4. Well TAG Heuer are giving them money and Renault are taking it from them…so it’ll be Renault who gets the flack.

    5. was that supposed to be humouress?

  2. I heard Mr. Christian Horner is changing his name to Mr. Sunshine…

  3. Christian Horner:

    We’ve been very strong on strategy, our pitstops have been the best in the pitlane.

    I am not sure what he means by “the best pit stops” but they definitely were not the fastest. F1 Fanatic statistics show that both Mercedes and Ferrari were usually faster in the pit lane than Red Bull.

    1. Yes, but the stats page you mentioned only shows the fastest stop for each team, not the average over all stops in a race.

      1. Yeah Red Bull averaged out the fastest and had the least issues generally which is what you want operationally.

      2. Here are the average pit stop times in 2015:

        Lewis Hamilton 24.178
        Nico Rosberg 24.367
        Sebastian Vettel 24.978
        Daniil Kvyat 24.994
        Sergio Perez 25.12
        Nico Hulkenberg 25.256
        Daniel Ricciardo 25.441
        Felipe Nasr 25.504
        Felipe Massa 25.565
        Valtteri Bottas 25.875
        Romain Grosjean 25.928
        Marcus Ericsson 26.107
        Jenson Button 26.136
        Kimi Raikkonen 26.297
        Max Verstappen 26.524
        Roberto Merhi 26.599
        Fernando Alonso 27.374
        Carlos Sainz Jnr 27.768
        Will Stevens 27.999
        Alexander Rossi 28.322
        Pastor Maldonado 29.64

        1. I wouldn’t have thought the driver makes a difference in the pit stop timing, but it appears it does. Not sure why, but it does. Look at that: the guys that were most often on the podium were the quickest, and in the order they were on the podium too! I wouldn’t have picked that result!

          1. @drycrust, you would expect there to be some variation between drivers in the same team given that each driver has a slightly different pit crew. Whilst some key personnel will be the same, it is normally the case that some of the mechanics allocated to each driver will double up as pit crew workers during the race weekend, introducing some slight variation between the pit crews.

            @girts, just to clarify the situation, does your average include or exclude abnormally long stops due to issues in the pit lane – for example, if a wheel nut became stuck and the driver was forced to to sit in the pit lane for an additional five or so seconds?

          2. RaceProUK (@)
            4th January 2016, 19:49

            The times will depend in part on how well the driver hits their marks.

          3. @anon My average includes all 687 pit stops. Detailed investigation would probably be necessary to exclude all the abnormal stops as a pit stop can be longer for various reasons. However, we can exclude all the pit stops that were, let us say, more than 6 seconds longer than the fastest pit stop in the race (64/687). This is probably a fairer reflection of pit stop performance and it shows that some drivers’ crews (Button, Grosjean, Verstappen) were actually very good. But it does not change the big picture much.

            Nico Rosberg 24.109
            Lewis Hamilton 24.165
            Jenson Button 24.331
            Sebastian Vettel 24.522
            Romain Grosjean 24.549
            Daniil Kvyat 24.588
            Daniel Ricciardo 24.663
            Max Verstappen 24.774
            Felipe Nasr 24.775
            Nico Hulkenberg 24.797
            Sergio Perez 24.815
            Fernando Alonso 24.819
            Felipe Massa 24.851
            Valtteri Bottas 24.892
            Kimi Raikkonen 25.108
            Carlos Sainz Jnr 25.135
            Marcus Ericsson 25.16
            Pastor Maldonado 25.265
            Will Stevens 25.614
            Roberto Merhi 26.214
            Alexander Rossi 27.039

          4. @girts, that quick and dirty process is probably close enough for our purposes, and whilst it does close things up in some quarters, it does seem that the general trend is indeed pointing towards Red Bull being slightly slower in the pits than their rivals. Mercedes have certainly been drilling their crews hard over the winter – it was commented that, because their cars were so reliable in pre-season testing, they were also able to do more practise pit stops and probably gained an edge there – but it does also look as if Red Bull have perhaps lost a little of their edge as well.

      3. And here is the list of 2015 teams and their average pit stop times:

        Mercedes 24.27
        Force India 25.183
        Red Bull 25.23
        Ferrari 25.628
        Williams 25.714
        Sauber 25.806
        McLaren 26.718
        Toro Rosso 27.102
        Manor 27.559
        Lotus 27.69

  4. I reckon Lynn took a huge amount of damage falling off in the lead in Sochi. The prognosis for drivers who do that is generally not good.

  5. Looking forward to another 12 months of Horner telling everyone that everyone preferred Red Bull dominance over Mercedes dominance.

  6. Am I remembering correctly that when Red Bull were using Ferrari engines in 2006 they were just as critical of them as they have been the Renault the past few years & there was some trouble over the fact they moved the Ferrari engine supply deal over to STR against Ferrari’s wishes in order to get Renault engines for the main team?

    I can’t remember the exact details now & I don’t have the time to do a proper search ATM but i’m sure I remember there been some problems at the time.

    1. PeterG, from what I can recall, Red Bull weren’t quite so critical in the press at the time – however, with Red Bull being a minor team with very limited clout in the sport (2006 was only their second year in F1, and at the time they had a reputation for being a “party team” that meant few took serious notice of them), Red Bull probably were in a position where they couldn’t throw their weight around in the media in the way that they can now.

      It is true, though, that the switchover was not easy – Ferrari was not keen on ending its contract with Red Bull and initially tried to hold them to their commitment to 2007, and it took several months before Red Bull could eventually persuade Ferrari to relent.

  7. Daniel (@mechanicalgrip22)
    4th January 2016, 14:15

    The headline should read ” Red Bull expects no progress for Horner in 2016″

  8. I still don’t see what Red Bull are going to do for an engine in 2017. They’re going to be flat out on that chassis as fast as it’s defined, so none of the manufacturers is going to want to help them out with a top motor. I don’t think they even have a Renault contract for 2017 do they?

    I don’t see the independent engine happening either: while everyone else has a Merc or Ferrari unit they won’t be swapping for a new low-budget item. Ferrari, Mercedes, Renault and Honda won’t bend over for a different spec of engine ‘equalised’ by the ever-untrustworthy FIA either.

    Red Bull are going to have to buy an engine maker, and they can’t catch up in one year.

    1. Does seem to be as you say, and I would just add once again that I don’t think it is any longer as simple as building a top chassis and buying a top PU. The two have to be integrated earlier than ever in the design and manufacturing stage…the PU has to talk to the car and the brakes now and visa versa. RBR needs a works deal for 2017, and to know all about the shape and size of said PU, or hope the PU regs get changed soon. As things are it would take a miracle, as I see it, for them to slap someone’s PU in their car and compete against the works teams who can design and integrate both at the same time. Even if they would have more success marrying two ‘strangers’ (chassis and PU) than I am giving them credit for, I still say they will be on their hind foot in this format as long as they don’t have a works deal in the works.

      1. So who might be interested in supplying and engine and hybrid technology to Red Bull? Toyota? I guess part of the problem for Red Bull is if they did the research to develop their own engine and hybrid system themselves they might as well start using it commercially.

        1. As I understand it @drycrust @robbie they all buy in a lot of the parts from specialist subcontractors – the motor-generators, turbo, and batteries. Then they have to tie it all together with software, which RBR have been active in already trying to row Renault along.

          I guess they need a fuel supplier and combustion chamber design, which maybe Ilmor can help them with or they can recruit/poach? The ICE is all casting and machining and bought-in bits like pistons.

          I reckon they can do it, but they’ll have to catch up for a year or two and spend a lot of money. It’s their only option isn’t it? So 2017 is going to be a modest year too.

          Unless Ron’s veto runs out, it occurs to me.

        2. Not sure whether it’s still the case, but my father had some dealings with Toyota back in the early 80’s. They had a very simple motto, plastered up in all of their factories: “Beat Benz”.

          That’s where the Lexus came from. So, I guess it might be possible that they’ll look to enter the format, possibly under the Lexus brand.

  9. Firstly good comment RogerA,.. Mercedes power unit head guy made a statement that these engines are now doing same power as old V10s, while at same time reaching power produced/fuel consumed efficiency of large marine diesels. Thus probably.the most efficient petrol engines in the world, edging 1000hp from 1.6l… Imagine that in a road car?

    In a road car that would mean 100hp from 0.16L 1 cylinder, delivered at 10l fuel per hour… In normal operating highway conditions that would equate to say 2l/100km of petrol. Just some thumb engine math here, so roughly 3x more efficient than todays road going engines.

    This is why Renault and Honda are so up for current engine formula, small efficient engines are exactly their ballpark. Mercedes road division is already greatly upgraded by small turbo engines.

    These engines then are a wonder, no other motosport sport can claim such figures.

  10. I think we dont need an independent engine supplier because a new engine would be absolutely different such as: hp, consumption, weight, size, price, reliability, complex etc. So how can we introduce a new engine fairly? We cant! If a new engine would be cheaper it should be less competitive or manufacturers dont develop their currently PUs.
    Red Bull need a new manufacturer (Audi, BMW, Toyota) or they have to make their own PU or they will exit. So Red Bull need a competitive PU or they will exit.
    I think their best solution would have been if they didnt criticize Renault and Renault wouldnt have joined F1 as manufacturer (as a whole team).

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