Nico Rosberg, Max Verstappen, Hockenheimring, 2016

Rosberg given penalty points for forcing Verstappen off

2016 German Grand Prix

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Nico Rosberg has been given two penalty pointy by the stewards for forcing Max Verstappen off the track during the German Grand Prix.

The Mercedes driver also received a five-second time penalty for the incident which occured while he was trying to overtake the Red Bull.

The stewards ruled that Rosberg “forced car 33 off the track in turn six and gained a lasting advantage”.

Rosberg now has a total of four penalty points.

Romain Grosjean was cleared after being investigated for a similar incident at turn eight. The stewards ruled he “did not gain a lasting advantage from the incident and had out braked himself into turn eight”.

Rosberg said he was “very surprised” to get a penalty for the incident. “I didn’t expect that at all”.

Verstappen said Rosberg left him with no option other than to go off the track to avoid a collision.

“I think pretty sure that he was quite far,” said Verstappen, “so he braked really late and at one point I thought he was going to run into me.”

“So I opened up and then he didn’t turn in, he was just driving straight so I had to go off the track otherwise we would have crashed.”

2016 German Grand Prix

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Keith Collantine
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237 comments on “Rosberg given penalty points for forcing Verstappen off”

  1. I remember in the early 2000’s if there was an overtake where the driver shut the door to the point of forcing someone off would have been deemed a good move, I don’t get why it isn’t now, another case of the FIA being too harsh

    1. should say “like that”, obviously not every case of shutting the door and pinching them at the exit is fair but that was fine

    2. Its always been the same, you don’t close the door on the entry to a corner. If your on the inside its your apex but nico for the second time didn’t attempt to take the racing line. It poor poor driving and you don’t even see it in 2cv racing.

      1. It’s unsportmanslike behavior. Think about it in other situations. You would not want to be slammed in the face by someone slamming a door (closing)… I personally don’t like it because it gives the driver on the outside, no chance to fight back because he has nothing to do but either evade or go off..

        1. Mark in Florida
          31st July 2016, 19:03

          So what Verstappen did to Kimi driving like an a$$ all over the track is deemed ok . But if it gets dished out to him it’s not ok. Double standard straight up. At least Rosberg didn’t take his wing off like Vercrappen did Kimi.

      2. Unless you’re Verstappen, and then it’s fine — hell, drive over the car behind you as you make multiple changes of direction and get praised for it by Charlie Whiting.

        1. @gweillo8888
          Indeed, but that’s how it has always been in F1. ‘Double’ standards would be a severe understatement. Some drivers frequently get away with illegal moves, others always get penalised. Drivers in the former category seem to be, at least, Ham and Ver. These are also probably the two that cry and complain the most when ‘injustice’ has fallen upon them, ironically and are the most vocal when others complain (about them). Alo was right when he said last week that Ros was up against a strong competitor with Ham: fast and influencial, on and off track. I really don’t mind some tough racing, maybe even including the antics of Ver last week vs Kimi, but let it be a level playing field for all. The moment that it stops being that, it stops being a sport, it becomes being a show, a circus. And these two have always been associated with F1. Now once in a while I do enjoy WWE-style entertainment, but when something ís promoted as and ís supposed to be a sport, I do expect a non-preference attitude towards thecompetitors of the governing bodies and not some supremo repeatingly saying that a certain Ham is his preferred champ and that he’s a much better WC imagewise than his teammate and even that Ros would be a louzy one.
          Hey, just my two pennies. I got five on it, what u got?

          1. ColdFly F1 (@)
            1st August 2016, 9:54

            Some drivers frequently get away with illegal moves, others always get penalised. Drivers in the former category seem to be, at least, Ham and Ver. These are also probably the two that cry and complain the most

            The ones who ‘cry and complain the most’ are the fans who claim ‘double standards’, ‘rigged competition’, ‘conspiracy, etc.

            I’ve seen steward decisions go for and against all drivers on the grid. I don’t always agree (probably because I don’t have all the data), but you need to be quite myopic if you seriously believe some drivers are constantly favoured by the stewards over others.

        2. That’s another thing needing to be addressed, yesterday it was a slight (but seemingly illegal) change of direction in front of ROS but his defense against Kimi in Hungary was clearly too much.

      3. Indeed. I remember when I was younger and was used to go to a local karting club and the owner/instructor emphasized his principle of “race hard and fair” and he always went nuts when a kid forced someone off the track. You just can’t do it, there’s a way to defend without pushing someone out.

    3. there is a difference between shutting the door in someone’s face and stalling your car mid corner and pushing another car off the track to keep an opponent from taking a better line and getting a better corner exit.

      I can’t see how something like what ROS did to VES or HAM could ever be deemed illegal, it’s not a pass, its forcing someone off the track to take position, thats all that move has ever been.

      1. @xsavior – Totally agree. Pushing people wide at the exit is one thing but diving down the inside and not turning into the corner isn’t. What was Verstappen supposed to do there?

        1. Sorry guys but I totally disagree. Verstappen noticed Rosberg was on the inside too late, made Nico goes off the line he chose to brake. In that way, Nico’s move that forced Verstappen off was a consequence of Verstappen’s move. If Verstappen would keep his braking line, Nico wouldn’t have changed his and maybe Verstappen could try to counter attack on the exit. I think Verstappen has changed his line too frequently in front of other drivers, like he did with Kimi in Hungary, and I don’t think it is a right way to defend position.

          1. Don’t agree. Verstappen tried to turn in to take the corner on the racing line and had to move back because Rosberg was there. It wasn’t defending. He didn’t expect Rosberg to be there.

            Rosberg telling Verstappen moved on the braking line was because he wanted to influence the stewards after he got the penalty.

          2. I agree with Sasquatch! I dont think Max was expecting Nico to be there. He wants to turn in, sees Nico, and then turns back to let Nico pass.

          3. Verstappen was already out of the braking phase and turned in to take the racing line. Whilst turning in he noticed Rosberg lunging for the inside line and deviated from the racing line. Had VES not done that, both VES and ROS would have been watching the rest of the race from the pitlane.

      2. It’s perfectly legal when Ham’s doing it.

        1. Yes it is. Because there’s a proper way of shutting the door. And then there is the Rosberg way.

          1. That’s completely wrong! There us no “proper way” of pushing out a car that’s next to you. You close the door when the car is 50% alongside, and it’s only when you are taking the optimal line. And Hamilton has pushed Rosberg out many times. There is nothing “proper” about what he did in Japan and Austin last year and Canada this year.
            I actually agree Rosberg was not right to do what he did with Verstappen here (though Sky disagree). I just don’t agree with the points. And then there is something else – For whatever reason, Rosberg left absolutely no room for Verstappen, and yet he was given only a 5 sec penalty – that would never guarantee Verstappen kept his position if Rosberg did not have all that other stuff happen. Yet in Austria, where Rosberg DID leave room for Hamilton, and where Hamilton crashed into him instead of ceding the position (and Verstappen left the track to avoid a collision!!! ), he was given a 10 sec penalty. Yet another example of how biased F1 and the stewards are. But I don’t blame you if you haven’t noticed. After all, a few years ago, Hamilton was recovered with a crane so he could continue his race.

        2. Sometimes I despair at the lack of racing knowledge. You can’t just drive straight until you got rid of the other guy, hour is that racing?

          Lewis opens the steering at the exit after taking the apex, that IS racing

          1. He given suitable in race penalty for it, no need for points as well, he didn’t even make contact!

          2. NO! NO! NO! You CAN”T always do that. When the other car us alongside you can’t do that. Speaking of lack of knowledge…..

        3. That’s completely wrong! There us no “proper way” of pushing out a car that’s next to you. You close the door when the car is 50% alongside, and it’s only when you are taking the optimal line. And Hamilton has pushed Rosberg out many times. There is nothing “proper” about what he did in Japan and Austin last year and Canada this year.
          I actually agree Rosberg was not right to do what he did with Verstappen here (though Sky disagree). I just don’t agree with the points. And then there is something else – For whatever reason, Rosberg left absolutely no room for Verstappen, and yet he was given only a 5 sec penalty – that would never guarantee Verstappen kept his position if Rosberg did not have all that other stuff happen. Yet in Austria, where Rosberg DID leave room for Hamilton, and where Hamilton crashed into him instead of ceding the position (and Verstappen left the track to avoid a collision!!! ), he was given a 10 sec penalty. Yet another example of how biased F1 and the stewards are. But I don’t blame you if you haven’t noticed. After all, a few years ago, Hamilton was recovered with a crane so he could continue his race.

      3. That’d make sense if Vestappen hadn’t have forced him to change direction under braking. Of course if you drive a guy to change direction the distance it takes for him to slow down will always be longer.

        1. Let’s stop with the “Verstappen made him change directions” argument. If that had been the case, Rosberg would have said it himself. He took that line because coming from that far back it was the only chance of getting under Max. He wasn’t locked up or understeering. He flat out decided not to turn until he absolutely had to in order to stay on track. If her turns 5 feet earlier, it’s a perfectly fine move. If her turns 3 feet earlier, it’s a little dodgy, but fair enough as Max could at least keep a couple wheels on the track. If there was a wall there or a gravel trap, Rosberg would have taken Max out of the race.

        2. You are correct. Max cooked the dish Nico had to eat.

  2. I’m sorry, this is becoming outrageous. How long will stewards condone jerking in the braking zone? Rosberg’s whole approach to the corner eas compromised by Verstappen’s petulant perception of what fair defending is.
    This is simply legitimising moving in the braking zone.

    1. Not sure why until now the stewards are too much in ease with VES. It was him who forced ROS to make this move, why would he move during the braking zone?

      1. Verstappen didn’t force Rosberg to brake to late,…

        1. He forced him to at least adjust his braking trajectory to a more shallow one, which would have made him go deeper into a corner

          1. @glue, @jeanrien agreed he had to adapt because of Verstappen moving but his initial attempt was pointless to begin with? He had to come from to far to begin with.

        2. @xtwl nope but he forced rosberg to change his line, and you don’t brake the same way depending on your line. I am not in favor of the penalty for this one but at least the stewards have picked the least severe of them all and I am not sure it changes that much to Ros result after what he has shown.

          1. He tried to turn into the corner and moved back because Rosberg was there. His move was on the racing line.

        3. Totally agree. And looking at the replay from inside Nico’s cockpit, he had ZERO intention of turning the wheel until after he’d run Max off the track.

    2. +1 @glue Finally someone who saw that too. Exactly the same move under braking he did last week against Raikkonen.

      1. No, his move was on the racing line as he tried to turn into the corner and noticed Rosberg was there.

        Rosberg was just telling that to the stewards after he got the penalty to influence them. If he thought the move was illegal he would have told before.

    3. William Jones
      31st July 2016, 15:03

      Having seen the replays, it looks like max it actually turning into the corner – that “jerk” traces the racing line perfectly. He has to bail out because Rosberg was there.

      1. +1
        I guess you see what you want, but to me Verstappen briefly thought about turning to make the corner and realized he would collide with Rosberg, slowed and went wide. Anyhow Rosberg couldn’t have reacted to Verstappen ‘twitching’ or ‘jerking’ unless he wasn’t telling the truth on the radio that he had the steering wheel at full lock.

        1. He was referring to when he was turning, which is when he had the steering at full lock. When Verstappen moved in the braking zone, Rosberg was, you know, braking.

          1. I was critical of Max last week, rightfully I believe, but this week he was turning into the corner. That’s not ‘moving in the braking area’ he’s allowed to take his line. It’s not his fault Nico was taking a dive (and then a nice Sunday drive in the nearby countryside)

    4. William, that’s very early to turn into a hairpin,…

      1. William Jones
        31st July 2016, 15:23

        My bad, you’re right!

        1. But here’s the thing, even if he was turning in early, even if he did it to put off a dive bomb, even if Rosberg thought he couldn’t turn (which is almost certainly balls) it was his right to take a line… He wasn’t jinking he was aiming for the apex. It’s up to him if he wants a slow exit. The onus is on the one dive-bombing from miles back not to cause a collision or out brake themselves. If max would have kept turning and Rosberg had speared into the side of him, what do you think the penalty would have been?

          Rosberg: causing a collision. There is no way you can, without delving into fantasy guess work blame Max for this.

        2. @tdm Whomever you want to ‘blame’ for Rosberg his late braking there is no denying Verstappen moved in the braking zone in Germany. Whether you want to believe that is because he was really going to take the apex that way is up to you.

          I advise you to look for a hairpin in your town and try to take it according to the racing line, and then try and steer in 20 metres earlier the next time around. Look at your exit speed and you’ll see why I don’t buy Verstappen really ‘turning’ in at that point.

    5. moving in the braking zone appears to be acceptable if it is in order to give the other guy MORE room to make the corner and reduce the chance of collision.

      The stewards clearly agree.

  3. For years it has been legal to push people off at corners, i always felt it should be penalised, but its abit unfair to start penalizing it all the sudden….

    1. William Jones
      31st July 2016, 15:05

      At the exit of corners, and still is. Not the apex or entry, and never has been

      1. Exactly. The point is that if you lunge into the corner on entry to the point where you can’t leave space on the outside of the track, you can basically bring the rival car on the outside to a standstill, unable to pass or even move. That’s what Rosberg seems to be making a habit of now as ‘racing.’ If you try to push after the apex, there’s less risk of collision, plus although you may be successful in pushing the opponent wide, you also stand the risk of being caught by a well-timed switchback.

    2. Here’s a crudely drawn picture to demonstrate the difference:

      OK: https://s31.postimg.org/9msobydez/image.jpg
      NOT OK: https://s31.postimg.org/n2fp1elwr/not_ok.jpg

      If you are in front, you can take the racing line even if that means pushing the other car wide. Being in front doesn’t mean you can ignore the corner and push the other car off the track.

      1. Perfect explanational drawings!

      2. @petebaldwin Problem is that Nico didn’t choose that line. He braked really late AND Max moved in the braking area, making Nico go on an even tighter line. Nico basically had to wait for the car to stop before he could turn, otherwise he would’ve spun on turn in (considering the extreme angle and speed he would’ve been doing)

        1. Nonsense, Nico was in first gear at the apex (you can see it on his display). So he was sufficiently slowed to take the corner. It’s just clumsy driving on Nico’s part. He braked late so Max didn’t expect him there, and when he saw nico he backup out of the move

          1. Also this spin lark. Very unlikely he would spin, he would likely lock up and understeer if he was overloading the front tyres under braking. He then would have ended in the same position without a penalty as long as he gave the place back.

            Not to mention in his own words ‘i did a great move’… No Nico, you did not.

      3. The problem with your drawing is that Maxs line would actually look something like this https://postimg.org/image/by8lnbk9t/
        Based on when he started to turn in during braking http://imgur.com/a/0EJwf

        Ok the end part is overexaggerated, but his move was waaay too early for a normal approach to the corner, and his move in the braking zone forced Ros to adjust his line and braking, therefore Ros went wide.

        1. I agree Verstappen moved and shouldn’t have but I don’t think that caused Nico to carry on in a straight line. If he had locked up or turned and understeered straight on then it would be different but as in Austria, he chose not to turn until he reached the edge of the track.

          Verstappen moving around in the braking zone is not on though. That’s 2 races in a row the FIA have let him get away with it and it’s going to cause a major shunt pretty soon.

  4. I always forget the implications of penalty points.

    How many would points equal a race ban again?

    1. Chris (@tophercheese21)
      31st July 2016, 15:16

      12, I believe.

      1. WillOfTheSupremo
        31st July 2016, 15:53

        Twelve it is ;)

  5. Absolute joke.

    Max was quoted saying ‘Senna would’ve liked his defending in Hungary.’ Well in my opinion Senna would equally have liked that overtake by Nico.

    1. Max is talented, aggressive, and somewhat inexperienced, and so he will occasionally appear brilliant and occasionally appear to be a jerk: Like every driver capable of becoming a champion, he will push limits. IMO it’s pretty easy to enjoy F1 and root for all the drivers. Their job is difficult and dangerous, and they are given every opportunity to make complete asses of themselves while full of adrenaline and with microphones shoved in their faces. It’s amazing they don’t all come across as jerks all the time, and it’s striking how rarely they personalize their criticisms of each other, instead focusing on the problematic actions that need to change. It’s even a good example for everyone to follow.

    2. And if Max “defended” like that against Senna, Senna would kill him. :-) Max SCREWED Kimi, that’s not defending. When you move in and someone changes the direction AGAIN, that’s outside the rules.

  6. I’m no Rosberg fan, but this was just a racing incident. Adding points to the time penalty is absurd.

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:21

      so it was also a racing incident in Austria then or if it is against an english driver then al of a sudden it is different? you could clearly see in onboard camera that he didn’t turn in on purpose to push Verstappen out of the track .. this is exactly the same as in Austria.

      1. The difference between Austria and Germany was that in Austria, Rosberg steered after both pushing Hamilton off track and hitting him…

        Here there was no contact… Also at Austria Rosberg could have made the turn earlier, here, you saw him go to full lock earlier into the corner (than Austria), the commentators on sky felt that it was legal, but potentially borderline. 5 seconds penalty is acceptable, the additional points is harsh and likely to prevent future in race overtakes…

      2. @Arnoud, do you not see the irony of your accusations of British one-eyed fandom and your own posts so passionately and totally laying all the blame in every incident involving MV on the other driver.
        PS. I agree with you on this incident.

    2. I think the penalty points is for repeat offenses. He didn’t get points the first time he did it.

  7. See, now that is unnecessary. He should have been forced to give the position back, but since that was impossible, 5 sec penalty was about right, but no more than that. Penalty points, totally unnecessary. Was no malice in it, just clumsiness.

    1. It was clumsiness that fit into a pattern of behavior the stewards have seen before, and recently. The last time Rossberg tried that move, it cost him a race. This time it cost him a podium and some points. I’m no pro driver, but my inexpert suggestion to Rossberg is that he knock it off. Or he can keep arguing that he’s done nothing wrong and see how that works.

    2. If you accidentally do 40 in a 30 you still get points whether it was malicious or not. Ignorance is no excuse

  8. This was the most ridiculous penalty I’ve seen in recent recently, and there were some terrible ones. I can’t see anything wrong with what Rosberg did – I expected something for Verstappen for moving on the brakes again.

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:24

      this is exactly the same as in Austria .. look at the onboard video .. he doesn’t turn in and he was even in first gear! He lied that he locked his steer but i guess if it is not an english driver then it is ok jeez

      1. he locked his steering, but he did so way after he should have turned. I didn’t see Nico lose control of his car, I did see him push an opponent off track to gain an advantage, and that is all there really is to this incident.

        If drivers are not responsibly for the lines they choose, then something is seriously wrong with F1. ROS deserved to be punished for intentionally putting someone off the track.

        The irony being people were complaining about he was being bullied by HAM, but this year, but ROS takes it to new highs, instead of slamming the door, he kicks it open in people’s faces.

        1. He didn’t lose control of his car because he waited to turn his steering wheel once he had slowed down enough. He went deep into corner because Max forced him to move on the braking line therefore compromising his line. If Rosberg would have turned the wheel earlier, he would have spun(same thing as in Austria, but that time it was his fault+probable brake issue). So ROS did actually choose his line, its just that Max forced him to alter it, so it should be Max that is responsible for the line ROS had to take.
          What i really don’t understand is people saying now and about Austrias incident is that “well he didn’t even attempt to turn the wheel”. Honestly, don’t you understand that you can’t just turn the steering wheel at any speed? You have to slow down sufficiently otherwise the car will just spun. Now imagine in both scenarios if Rosberg would have spun the car and crashed into Ham and Ves. That would be okay to you?
          This anti-Rosberg bias has been getting out hand for a while now. I’m in no way a fan of him either but cmon! Try to use common sense when judging these kind of situations

          1. No, he didn’t try to turn the wheel early, because then he would have lost out on the exit of the corner, and VES/HAM would have overtaken him.

            The purpose of pushing the opponent off the track is to keep someone from taking advantage of the fact that you went in too fast and can’t recover to get a good exit.

            Nico’s approach to both attempts was the same. He has a history of this going all the way back to Bahrain last year, at least. He will dive bomb people and block them, but in the case of the hair pin, his line was so compromised, he had to block the other driver in order to keep the lead coming out of the corner. If the corner was not a hair pin, and more closer 90 degrees, Nico doesn’t need to take the guy off the track, he just does what HAM did to him at Bahrain or at COTA.

            The reason why Nico deserves a penalty is because hes been running guys off the track far too often this year, and he needs to be punished accordingly.

          2. Even assuming you are right, it’s still a penalty. Max did nothing wrong. If we follow your logic the best tactic is dive up the inside without any care for the corner as long as you can take the other guy with you it’s a ‘clean overtake’. The man behind is responsible to arrive at the corner under control and must expect the person in front to turn in to take the corner.

          3. and for the record, had they asked Lewis to give back the position at COTA, I wouldn’t have had any issue with it, however in Bahrain (2014), in every instance, I believe Nico was too far back to realistically been able to complain about being put off. At Spa in 2014, Nico made a greedy run up Lewis on the inside of the last turn of a chicane in which he turned in to his teammate to avoid running off track, in that case too, Lewis never had to yield, you have to be significantly a head of the guy in order to pull the block off, you can’t become a roadblock and force someone to drive off the track. That’s just not racing imo.

          4. @tdm In Austria, yes. It was a penalty. He went too deep(divebombed) regardless of the brake issue. But here it was Max who forced Rosberg to adjust his line in the braking line and that is what Max did wrong. You just can’t move in the braking line. That is wrong.
            In the infamous Jerez 97 Schumacher – Villeneuve incident, Villeneuve later admitted that he would not have made the corner, but he knew Schumacher would try to turn into him so he divebombed. But well that time Schumacher made the move first.

            @xsavior “The reason why Nico deserves a penalty is because hes been running guys off the track far too often this year, and he needs to be punished accordingly.”
            Please, please give us some examples on this.

            And “The purpose of pushing the opponent off the track is to keep someone from taking advantage of the fact that you went in too fast and can’t recover to get a good exit.”
            As i said, he would have made the corner if not for the fact that Max compromised Rosbergs braking line. Look at Alonso and Gutiérrez a few laps earlier. Alonso didn’t move in the braking line and Gutiérrez was not compromised and able to brake enough to leave a cars width.

            Of course this is just my opinion and you are entitled to think whatever and however you want, but from my experience during and overtake you brake as late as you can and if you have to adjust your line during braking, you are going to go wide. And if you decide to leave just a cars width in the corner and then go wide, well then inevitably you will force someone off the track. In Austria it was Rosbergs optimism+brake issues that made him go wide, here it was Max.

  9. lol what a crap.

  10. I don’t think this decision was made in a vacuum, its not just about this race. Nico has a bad habit that needs to be corrected so everyone has a better, fairer and safer season.

    I think, IMHO, that the points are a wake up call that Nico would be well served to listen too.

    1. This is the comment. The stewards were reacting to what is beginning to look like a custom for Nico. They are saying to him, get your on-track acts together. But the problem is that they cultivated the on-track actions we have seen from Nico over time.
      If only they had dealt him the same hand that they deal Hamilton ie immediate punishment. Track limits? Immediate time deletion. Reverse in the pit lane? Reprimand. Getting back on track without going round the styrofoam? Reprimand. If they were seen to be punishing him no matter how small it might seem, he might have been in check.

    2. hes pushed so many people off the track this year he should get a grid penalty.

  11. This was the move Rosberg should have made in Austria, I genuinely don’t understand the sanction for this move unless there is something in the data we can’t see. He was ahead and the push wide was after the apex point so a clean move from what I saw. And that’s before you factor Verstappen’s jink in the braking zone. That needs pulling in line before it results in a crash.

    1. They were essentially the same move only this time Rosberg was already ahead, but still chose to wait for Max so he could run him off track.

      1. Rosberg ahead? He came from the dark side of the moon… and aimed at the stars… if he meant to make the corner (this is a serious question) why didnt he lock up as he said he was in full lock!? he was no where near Max, Max was turning already early or not, he was on the racing line! Rosberg just did another of his kamikaze moves to see if it sticks… when people locks up as he keeps saying, smokes comes off massively… we see none of these in his moves, as many knows now he is a terrible liar!

        1. Full lock refers to the wheel being turned at full lock

    2. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 17:25

      he just turn in to make the corner .. u know right that you turn in for the corner in the breaking zone??? you clearly see that Max was surprised by the move of Rosberg and then he steered away to avoid a collision.

      1. http://m.imgur.com/a/0EJwf

        You can clearly see the turning point for the hairpin being much later than the point Verstappen jerked to the right.

      2. Rosberg was also surprised by the move of Max and then he steered away to avoid a collision

  12. This is funny. People have been pushing drivers out of the track for the past decade and no one has been penalised, and now suddenly it’s not allowed.

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:25

      did you forget Austria then .. it is exactly the same .. he had no intention to turn in and Max had more speed outside so if he would have turned in he would have been passed by Max .. this was a deliberate attempt to push Max out of the track. How clearer do you want it to be?

    2. That’s on the exit of a turn.

      Rosberg was behind when they started braking. That means the racing line is for Verstappen. Yet Rosberg just divebombs in there and barely keeps his own car on track.

      In Austria he got a penalty for this move and here again. Makes sense in a way.

      Rosberg really shoudl try to study the rule book for a change. He really seems to think that having the inside line means he can do whatever he wants to the car on the outside, but it’s the driver who is ahead who has the racing line. He got this wrong twice now.

      Although I have to say I liked this move. It’s better to see someone go for an aggressive overtake rather than using a foul like this to defend your position. But to make it stick he should have left at least a car width on the outside and I doubt he would have gotten a penalty then.

      1. “Rosberg was behind when they started braking. That means the racing line is for Verstappen.”

        Can you source this in the rules?

    3. The pushing off the track as we’ve seen Lewis do isn’t the same as how Nico’s been doing it. Lewis isn’t showing true intent to force a driver off track, but rather to yield as they exit the corner. His closing of the door once ahead isn’t exactly a good thing, but I doubt it’s 100% intentional (Austin being the prime example as he couldn’t turn any tighter).

      Nico, on the other hand, seems to be pulling off these moves with the full intent of pushing another off the track. Spain could have been the start as he threw himself over without any intent of stopping, though I suspect he genuinely thought Lewis was completely behind in that moment so I’ve let him off since. Austria and now Germany showed an intent to push an opponent off track in the middle of the corner and not even attempting to make the apex. There’s nothing wrong with effectively parking in a position that hinders the other car’s exit of the corner, but forcing them to dive off the track isn’t right and we even saw the stewards giving out such penalties to the GP2 drivers as well. Nico needed more patience as he could have pulled off a cleaner move on the next lap, but I think he allowed his poor start to effect him.

  13. Verstappen did force Rosberg’s move a bit, but from the onboard it seemed clear that Rosberg could have left a bit more track space (and maybe even make the move stick without forcing Verstappen out with all 4 wheels). I guess both were a tad aggressive, so in the end I can’t agree with the penalty…

    So, to those who think the stewards always help Rosberg: do you think they have picked a new favorite? ;)

    1. Duncan Idaho (@)
      1st August 2016, 0:37

      Second guessing the stewards: I think if Rosberg had started making his full lock just a few metres before he did then they would have let it go as fair racing. His entrance was certainly compromised by Max’s late jink and he found himself in front but completely lacking momentum, possibly lost sight of Max, panicked and blocked the corner. If he was attempting it on Alonso it would have all looked much better – Alonso would probably have already been lined up for the crisscross rather than heading to go around the outside.
      The punishment might have been meted for its artlessness as much as anything else.

  14. A bit harsh. The 8.20 second penalty was good enough.

    1. Yeah, what about that, terrible timing by Mercedes.

      1. They certainly need a new stop watch sponsor.

  15. It it a long set precedent that it is OK to push someone out on the EXIT of a turn. This is different and it is why he deserved a penalty. This is almost similar to his defensing at Austria. Rosberg is entering the the corner and running deep on purpose, this is a legimate move which most drivers will do when defending/attacking. Rosberg takes this too far by running that deep that the driver he is battling with has no choice but to leave the track – this is the mistake. He has no argument because he clearly is not steering until only he can make the corner. Once you have track position and are ahead on the exit of the corner, you are deemed ahead and can choose you line. On entry, you don’t “own” the corner enough to have the right to push somebody wide. Comparing this to other drivers pushing people wide on exit is like comparing apples and oranges.

    So twice he has made this move (once whilst defending and once whilst attacking). Let’s hope he learns. Excuses such as it being impossible to steer because he would lock up etc. have absolutely no grounding here either – the simple solution to that would be to brake earlier. He is in control of his car, not being in control if he approached it another way would be his own fault.

    1. Part of the reason he turned so late was the fact that he had to alterate his braking into the corner because Verstappen moved in the braking zone. If Rosberg had turned the wheel earlier, it would have been more likely for him to lock his wheels and slide off the track.

      1. William Jones
        31st July 2016, 15:18

        And your source for this is?

          1. https://youtu.be/X-YoUxKjjPw?t=46

            Max has eyes as well, and he says he saw Ros’s hand straight and not making the corner…

      2. Verstappen started turning into the corner, realised Nico was going for the divebomb of the century, and bailed out. I hardly call that moving in the braking zone. That, my friend, is called taking a corner then realising that if you do so you will lose half of your car.

        1. You do not turn into that hairpin that early;

          1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
            31st July 2016, 16:50

            well if he was too early then he wasn’t in the breaking zone .. normally you turn in when you are in the breaking zone! you can’t have it both ways

        2. This is exactly how I saw it as well. I thought it was great driving by Max to avoid the wreck there.

          If Max had continued on, Nico would have T-boned him and he, Nico would surely have been penalized for avoidable contact as Max was ahead of him when he turned.

      3. Bear in mind the Stewards see a lot more of the data than the general viewing public – when he starts braking, how much braking g force, how much lateral g force etc. If he was on the limit for brakes this would show in the telemetry. Hamilton put it after the Monaco qualifying “incident” where Rosberg decided he couldn’t make the corner at mirabeau and went down the slip road a couple of seasons ago “I really wish you guys could see the data”. So Rosbergs defence of “I was on the limit for brakes” or “I was turning at full lock” can be fully scrutinised by the Stewards. (Well the full lock one can be debunked by anyone watching!!!). So a viewer disagreeing with the Stewards is tenuous at best as they have much more data available. All camera angles, all telemetry etc, and I think it was Emerson Fittipaldi as driver steward, he has a fair bit of racing expertise and experience!!

    2. If Nico would have turned earlier, he would have locked up and probably even rammed into Max, this time he was smart enough to avoid that… Ant’s analysis was again nice and clear and detailed…

      1. If he’d have braked slightly earlier, he wouldn’t have had that dilemna. Even when he was slow enough to turn in, he still delayed it.

  16. Rosberg: “I was on full lock”
    ROFL
    Nico needs to practice steering in the simulator. Silly man. Deserved his penalty, gets spooked in wheel-to-wheel situations.

    1. Have to agree – the on-board clearly showed he didn’t even turn the wheel until he was almost through the corner. As said above, this is becoming a habit for Rosberg.

      For what it’s worth Alan Jones (WRC 1980) defended Rosberg on Australian TV and thinks the move was legitimate. To paraphrase – if you’re in front it’s your call when to turn in. If somebody tries to pass you on the outside it’s their responsibility to stay clear.

      I’d never argue with a world champion, but I saw it differently at the time.

      1. Alan Jones despite his status and experience (35 years ago) needs to read the bloody rule book! Instead of letting ridiculous stuff happen by whoever and whenever he is on a junket. That’s leads to this kind of rubbish.

        Last week was a joke. This week suggesting Rosberg is right to brake happily and then attempt to drive to the edge of the track (the new Rosberg move) is absolutely not racing and in any less delicate series would see the guy wearing most of his car.

        I have no wish to defend MV as I thought last week was totally out of order but this new kill the cutback move that NR is ‘perfecting’ is ridiculous. One would have thought the car advantage was enough but no, let’s do silly dirty moves and see what I can get away with? Hopefully not so much.

        Alan Jones is rapidly looking like an idiot.

        1. Can you show the part in the rule book that he needs to look at?

          1. Yep – feel free to look up the parts relating to overtaking and defending.

            It’s called the Internet and you need to use something called Google :)

          2. Actually, it’s called the onus being on you do demonstrate that your claims are true. I’m not going to search for your proof.

      2. @avroanson (I remenber them from the 50s, distinctive sillouette and engine noise) AJ is I’m afraid having a few senior moments, his after race comment suggested he thought Ros was being passed by Ves and was defending his position, not the other way around.

    2. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:28

      how can you lock like that in first gear .. look at the onboard video .. he is definitely lying which is ok i guessed but the 5 second penalty was justified

      1. Do you know what steering lock is?

  17. Completely justified penalty. Rosberg has a near belief that if a driver is on the inside, he has to right to claim the whole track which is not correct.

    People nowadays have to complain about everything.

  18. I believe that these penalties are now given to Rosberg for the last incidents where he wasn’t penalised rather than for the incident this time with Verstappen.

  19. Nico Rosberg: “What do I do here?”

    Tony Ross(engineer) : “Turn right Nico, turn right”

    Nico Rosberg: “What?!? I don’t understand, I’m confused”

    Tony Ross(engineer): “Turn the flipping steering wheel clockwise!!”

    Nico Rosberg: “Oh, you mean hold the steering wheel in a neutral position and run my opponent off the track. Got it!”

    Tony Ross(engineer): -_-

    1. COTD right here!

    2. He would understand more in numbers like left hand at 12 oclock and right hand at 6! and something along the lines about gear no and throttle position

  20. I think the stewards were right, on the exit of a corner you can get away with pushing a car out wide to claim back the line, but to force max off before even making a turn is a bit too far I think given the room he had!

    1. MG421982 (@)
      31st July 2016, 15:47

      If they were right, then VES should have been penalyzed for overtaking RIC by going off-track!

      1. Max didn’t go off the track, it was the astroturf the danger zone. He was almost….

      2. Pretty sure they stated in practice that they were judging track limits by the outside edge of the kerb in turn one rather than the white line on the inside of the kerb which is why none of the commentators picked up on it

        1. MG421982 (@)
          31st July 2016, 17:17

          Sounds like anarchy! Goodbye RULES.

          1. Strategy Group wants to get rid of the track limit rules, Whiting does not and decided for this race that the kerbs were the limit.

      3. @corrado-dub, I agree, obviously RBR were not going to complain, but it may have had a bearing on how co-operative Max was later.

  21. This one is just stupid. Verstapen did same thing he does of moving under breaking to spook his opponent.

    That is deemed ok… Nico then reacts to that and includes evasive action in to his breaking.. End result longer braking, forcing both wide off the track.

    What is Nico to do? Either crash or get penalised. Just horrible the way stewards decided this and ruined a perfectly good fight for second and made championship gap larger artificially.

    Just poor for the sport. A ruling that discourages overtaking.

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:30

      actually Verstappen did not make a big fuss out of it on dutch tv. He proofed he was faster then Rosberg anyway

      1. spafrancorchamps
        31st July 2016, 18:35

        What does Verstappen’s reaction on Dutch tv has to do with the above comment?

        The kid moves in the braking zones, Rosberg prepares to take evasive action, and thus goes straight. If anyone is at fault here it’s Max, and I hope next time he defends like that, it’s the end of his race. It’s unsportsmanlike behavior.

      2. Of course he bloody wouldn’t, he thinks that sort of behaviour is acceptable, and he is enabled by the fact that it’s not punished.

        This is what I hate whenever a new F1 star appears, their ignorant bandwagoning fans who have most likely not one iota of discernment of how racing works.

      3. Hey i like Max, i dont care if he is a poof or not, he’s still a great driver

    2. Since when is turning into a corner an illegal move. His action was on the racing line. That ROsberg got spooked by him has is Rosberg’s problem, not Verstappen.

      1. @sasquatsch Making jerking motions under braking towards another driver is dangerous.

  22. Had Ves not moved in Ros while braking, Ros would have stuck it cleanly. Clearly stupid penalty.

  23. Does Nico push people off track? Yes

    Does Max move in the braking zone? Yes

    No penalty in current race, a ban for both drivers for the next race.

    Since stewards can make up punishments on the fly now, I would like to see this.

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:34

      Max did not move in the braking zone .. he just brake late and turned in for the corner .. Nico just dived really early to the inside which is fine i guess but then you have to turn in which he didn’t on purpose .. clear cut if you ask me!!

      1. He clearly moved in the braking zone. You don’t tun in that early for a hairpin that is followed by a long straight.

      2. Look man we all have our favourites. For me that’s VET and RIC currently. I think Max is a tremendous talent who is going to do exceedingly well in F1 while Nico is probably going to go down the same route as Massa, someone who has the skills but not the temperament to be WDC.

        But facts are facts. Nico did a really late dive that Max did not anticipate and Max moved a touch too late to counter it. What Nico did started out as clumsy and transitioned to outrageous because what Max did was stupid and dangerous.

        However after being caught out if Max had left his defence for later he could have fought back with better traction out of the corner as good odds on Nico slowing down too much to make the corner or violating track limits and being forced to give the place back. Max should have transformed Nico’s clumsiness into his defence.

        Instead Max tried to defend in the wrong way, Nico behaved in a pig headed manner, Merc was dumb enough to not order Nico to give the place back while setting up a fresh attack and we ended up with the stewards making a hash of it.

        On that note, can we get some permanent stewards along with stable rules so that F1 can be more of a thrilling sport and less of mindless entertainment?

        1. I don’t agree, I think Max intended to use a late move to spook his opponent. He has done it several times now.

  24. Double yellow and pole position: It’s OK.

    Double movement while defending, moving on the braking zone, touching rival: Oh, don’t worry, that’s racing.

    Defending the racing line in a battle, pushing a little a competitor into a enormous tarmac runoff area: OMG that’s very dangerous five seconds penalty!

    FIA: Coherence not found

  25. MG421982 (@)
    31st July 2016, 15:42

    Personally, I don’t quite like these moves, they seem a little bit too more, but to me this move was something a la Ricciardo and Hamilton, a late braking dive bomb. But if it’s not followed by some accident, I think it should be considered a racing incident, especially if the race is boring. But how can ROS be penalized for such manoeuver, but not VES for overtaking RIC at turn1 buy going off track?!??

    1. Michael Brown (@)
      31st July 2016, 15:57

      @corrado-dub There’s nothing illegal with what Verstappen did in turn 1. The stewards decided in qualifying that drivers can cross the white line as long as they stay on the massive kerbs.

      That’s right, the FIA can’t be bothered to enforce the white lines as track limits any more.

      1. MG421982 (@)
        31st July 2016, 17:02

        Of course it’s legal… on paper! But that’s just about all.
        In my opinion, NO, it shouldn’t be legal to go beyond the white line with all wheels. Why do they bother anymore with white lines etc etc, if the drivers can do what they want… then just modify the track to follow the routes marked by the drivers. Easy. And happy drivers. These “rules” of being “legal” to go beyond the white line in just some parts of certain tracks, while on some other tracks being “legal” to go beyond the white line up to 20cm is a big mess. It adds more and more subjectivism and endless discussions regarding what/how is wrong and what/how is right.

        1. +1 where do you draw the line? Despite my defence of Max on this thread, I think he is too pig headed and drives like a fool quite often

    2. Agreed. Max’s move outside the track was not right. I’m guessing the team new it too.

  26. Useless stewards babysitting the spoiled kid. He can do anything to anyone while when someone returns him some of his own medicine it’s suddenly a penalty. Pathetic

  27. Zantkiller (@)
    31st July 2016, 15:47

    If he turned any earlier he would have locked up and probably hit Max so he had to carry on straight until he could turn at which point he turned fully.
    This is nothing like Austria. This wasn’t a deliberate push off the circuit. This was the wrong decision.

    1. so what?

      He should’ve braked earlier then instead of that massive divebomb. It’s his responsibility to keep his own car under control.

  28. I think this penalty is justifyable. Sort of.
    His penalty in Austria, however, wasn’t.
    Some strange kind of poetic justice happening here, with the Austria penalty not costing him any points, while the Hockenheim one did …

    1. Just the opposite. In Austria Hamilton was in front and had the right to the corner. This time Rosberg was in front and had the right to drive the corner any way he wants.

      So while the penalty in Austria was justified, this time it was very harsh.

      1. I don’t think that this is a meaningful criterion. To me, what counts is the fact that two cars are alongside each other. In this case, both drivers must leave enough space for each other: The driver on the outside line must not turn into the car on the inside line, and the driver on the inside line must not force the other car off the track.

        Whichever way we look at it, Rosberg’s penalty in Austria was completely inconsistent with the assessment of Hamilton’s manoeuvre after the start of the Canadian GP. Rosberg was slightly ahead, and Hamilton bumped him off the track. No penalty was issued. This doesn’t make any sense when comparing it to Rosberg’s penalty in Austria. There simply is no consistent logic that can be applied to both incidents in order to explain when a penalty is issued, and why.

  29. Watching Anthony Davidson’s analysis of the incident on Sky’s post race makes the penalty look even more ridiculous.

    Yes he turns in a bit late but the onboard shot makes it look worse than it actually is because this new narrow angle lens fom are using means you can’t see where the apex is. when you look at the outside view & zoom in to see excatly where nico turns to full lock it doesn’t actually seem as bad.

    All of the current/ex-drivers on sky felt the penalty was unjustified having looked over all of the analysis & I have to say that i 100% agree with them having watched there analysis.

      1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
        31st July 2016, 16:43

        come on .. he turns in on the outer most part of the corner (on the white line) so he doesn’t give Max any room on the outside.

        1. The excuse of “Max moving in the breaking zone” isn’t justified here, Max turned in as normal for the corner but backed out of it as Nico lunged inside, guessing Max saw Nico late. Nico turned very late for the corner which forced Max of track. If that was Hamilton, there would’ve been contact for sure as Hamilton would’ve turned regardless.

          Don’t think this incident is as bad as Austria but i did immediately think when i saw it that Nico has done it yet again! Poor race from him today, i expected him to win…

          1. http://m.imgur.com/a/0EJwf

            This is ‘turning in as normal’?

        2. ” he turns in on the outer most part of the corner (on the white line)”

          He actually doesn’t, If you watch the video & see where Ant pauses the frame & zooms into show where Nico turns in & when he gets to full lock he’s actually in the middle of the track.

          Watch the video & watch/listen to Ant’s analysis

      2. Arnoud van Houwelingen
        31st July 2016, 22:06

        a very knowledgable f1 journalist Peter Windsor also says in his analysis that Rosberg pushed Max deliberately wide and that Max did nothing wrong .. at 5:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CMKThLWLgo

  30. When I saw the incident live my very first thought was that it was almost identical to the incident in Austria, minus the contact, and therefore expected the penalty.

    I’m fine with aggressive driving and forcing others off track if there’s even a hint of the aggressor trying to take the racing line and get round the corner as quickly as possible, but both today and in Austria Nico has clearly taken the decision not to turn in until the other guy had no option but to run off track (or collide).

    Although they’re completely different scenarios, I find it reminds me of when Schumacher ‘parked’ at Rascasse, making no attempt to take the corner purely to sabotage his rival’s lap. It’s yet more evidence that Nico is feeling the pressure and overthinking things when it comes to wheel to wheel racing, and ironically he’d have been better off if in both cases if he’d just accepted defeat instead of trying to force the issue.

    1. For the record, I also feel Max’s defending is dangerous and I wouldn’t be surprised if it made Nico feel like he should teach him a lesson. Max WILL get shunted if he carries on like that.

      Also, stuff like Rosberg on Hamilton in Australia and Hamilton on Rosberg in Canada are examples of what is acceptable and when it is ok to force someone off track… On the exit of a corner and when the aggressor is on the racing (and faster) line.

      1. I agree but two wrongs do not make a right and Nico is like it or not becoming quickly the new Shumi in terms of pushing the boundaries.

        I see at least three if not four rule clarifications or rewrites due to his frankly hopeless race craft.

        That has to stop and it’s not like he has been ‘overlerly’ penalised in the past.

        Perhaps they have noticed a trend?

  31. Verstappen’s move was wrong and Rosbergs move was also shady. I think Rosberg got nailed because we have a precedent and it is his own case. Estopped. And it’s a good rule. You can’t run a car off the road on the entry to a corner because leaving your line establishes ill intent. You could argue he wanted to stop the over-under but that would have been the clumsiest way to do it. Good race drivers know how to “park” on an apex to thwart that.

    And his whining on the radio was pathetic. Almost as bad as finishing fourth in that car. Hamilton was just toying with the red bulls and rosberg couldn’t even catch up to them. Hate to quote trump, but, Sad!

    1. (Don’t quote Trump, the man is a racist moron.)
      I agree Rosberg may have set a precedent for himself now. Verstappen said, more or less quote, ask Lewis, he knows what (Rosberg) does. Or as Horner put it, cynically but accurately, you have to look to make an effort and give some kind of chance for the stewards to let you off, Hamilton’s own famous world beating ‘understeer.’ When everyone can see you ploughed straight ahead and then turned far too late, there isn’t much place to hide.

  32. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
    31st July 2016, 16:02

    I can’t believe this. I was pretty sure there wouldn’t even be a penalty. Maybe Hamilton should have got a 1 race ban after Canada for forcing Rosberg off the track as well as making him loose multiple positions.

    I clearly don’t really mean that but what Hamilton did in Canada clearly resulted worse for Rosberg than what Rosberg did to Verstappen. All it resulted in was Verstappen going off the track and loosing 1 place to who will probably have been able to go past him anyway. If he overtook later and didn’t do it completely spot on then he maybe should have still got a 1 second time penalty instead.

    These rules are getting very strange. They are extremely inconsistent.

    1. If you don’t understand understand/apply the rules properly they indeed will seem strange.

      First of all there is corner entry and exit. Those are different.

      When looking at overtaking in the entry of a corner, you need to see which driver is ahead when they start braking. The lead driver has the the racing line. There is no room on the outside of the racing line, so a driver knows not to try and stay on the outside. There is nothing wrong with the lead car keeping the racing line and if the following car doesn’t yield he will go off track. That’s his own mistake really.

      Rosberg does make this mistake only when he’s next to Hamilton though. At the end of the race in Canada the exact same situation occurs in turn one when Rosberg attempts to overtake Verstappen. Then suddenly does seem to know the rules and slots back in behind Verstappen. He should have done the same with Hamilton and he could have kept his position close behind Hamilton. Instead he slides down the order for trying to force through in a lost position. That’s a dumb move.

      Although Hamilton makes the same mistake when next to Rosberg. For instance Australia where he got pushed off by Rosberg and also lost places. Or Canada 2014 where Rosberg ran Hamilton off in exactly the same way.

      In this case Rosberg is behind and therefore he should let Verstappen have the racing line. Or at the very least allow him stay on track.

      1. @patrickl I’m not entirely sure the rules say much at all to distinguish between corner entry and exit.

        1. @mike No, but verdicts from the stewards do.

          The rules say you are not allowed to push a driver off. How this is interpreted is a whole set of “unwritten rules”. Which are actually written in the form of precedents set by earlier rulings.

          1. The problem with precedents is that they only work if they are consistent. I don’t think I need to go look for examples for you to believe me when I say that is simply not the case.

  33. Seems those crows are slowly coming home to roost for Rosberg. You can play dirty only for so long before it backfires.

  34. Max’s recklessness will only be stopped by a massive accident or a massive penalty. Hope it’s the second.

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 16:53

      What ?? you flipped the situation 180 degrees .. it was Nico who was reckless with that divebomb and Max wisely steered away to avoid a collision .. OMG Max did nothing wrong here!!!!

      1. Max moved across in the braking zone, That is something that has been a big no-no in F1 & a lot of other categories for years.

        That is the sort of maneuver that is the key reason for many an airborne accident over the years in open wheel categories which is why that sort of thing has always been frowned upon & why its something you always hear drivers vocally criticize.

  35. Nico came from to far back (kimi botas) but hey worth a go and legal if done well. But he didn’t attempt to hit the apex then ran wide off the racing line exiting and pushing max off the track. This is why he got the penalty in my book, no apex attempt and ran wide off the racing line on the exit so deliberately running max off track.

  36. Funny many people seeing what Rosberg did as acceptable move. The problem is Rosberg not forcing someone out of the track on a corner that if the other driver cornering at very edge of the track limit he will still get T-boned. Rosberg need to watch how Hamilton closing the door nicely like he did to Ricciardo in Monaco. It sure look like he leave no space (and the small jerk made it look worse), but on replay its very clear he leave enough space. Had Rosberg turned 1 meter earlier, it would’ve been fine.

    1. Take a look at Davidson’s analysis, he shows he didn’t turn in at the edge of the track. And besides, he could have turned in 1m earlier if Verstappen had not interfered with his braking.

      1. @glue After watched the replays, Verstappen didn’t interfere with Rosberg braking, in fact it’s the other way around. However, Rosberg did indeed turn before the edge of the track, and they are side-by-side at the apex (Rosberg has slight advantage but it’s not enough). The problem is with over 90% of Max car aside him, Rosberg push him out of the track, so I still agree with the penalty. The important point for me is when at the top of the hairpin, if Max yield and stop his car right there, Rosberg will still hit him, ergo Max have no chance at all to stay on the track.

    2. @sonicslv every single current/ex driver on skys f1 team felt the penalty was wrong having done a lot of analysis on it & davidson also made the comment that other current drivers that he spoke to on his way to the skypad also felt the penalty was wrong.

      guess all these current/ex f1 drivers don’t know what there talking about though?

      http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/10518478/rosberg-penalty-analysis

      1. After watching the replay again, I still think he should get the penalty. I wrote my reasoning in my reply to glue. On that situation I think you can’t just slam the door like that, he still not in front of Max car far enough to do something like that. The irony is if he just take the inside line and go wide at exit, he most likely still ahead and it will be a great pass.

  37. MG421982 (@)
    31st July 2016, 16:44

    +1.

    Exactly my thoughts. If the fight is not followed by negative consequences for the defending driver, they should let it be. But we had some daring moves followed by negative consequences for the defending driver, like car damage, multiple positions lost or both… and it was OK. It does seem the balance is off when it comes to having a fair judgement.

  38. Nico could have passed Max without forcing him off the track, he was faster at that point. The move on Max was identical to move on LH in Austria. Nico was childish and karma is taking care of him.

    Nico is a great technical driver, but his action of late show how desperate he is to win at any cost.

    The 2nd half of the year is going to be exciting with LH’s engine penalties, Nico loosing his cool and Red Bull finding the pace.

  39. I saw it like this: Max leaves space on the inside for ROS and ROS doesn’t leave space for Max on the outside. If penalties are given the way they are ATM I think 5 sec is justified.

    ROS looks clumsy at best imho

  40. Neil (@neilosjames)
    31st July 2016, 17:55

    I love to see late-braking moves and if it’d come off, it would have been great, but…

    Honestly, I think Rosberg deserved a penalty for this one. He went too late to make the corner while also allowing space and, whether he meant to do it or not, he DID force Verstappen off the track. If he’d made the apex and taken a normal (or even normal-ish) exit it would have been fine, and I’d applaud the move as brilliant because I believe that once you have ‘the line’, you can do with it what you wish – including running your rival out of road.

    But he never had the line… he just sailed past the apex, right to the edge of the track, and left Verstappen with nowhere to go. Deliberate or accidental, it still happened.

    Surprised Mercedes didn’t get on the radio straight away and get him to give the place back…

  41. Hamilton didn´t left space to Rosberg in the past, in races like Austin 2014, Austin 2015, Japan 2015 and Canadá 2015. No penalties for him. Hamilton is the golden boy for the FIA, it´s ridiculous. I don´t know as some people don´t see it

    1. what did HAM get away with in this race? What did he get away with during qualifying, or in any of the practices? If anything, the recent rule change helped ROS more than HAM, and ROS got away with literally running his teammate off the track in to a crash. He also set a purple sector under double yellows/yellow flag last round.

      ROS gets plenty of leeway from the stewards, more so than HAM. ROS also gets much better reliability from Merc than HAM. Hamilton would probably be over 60 points in the lead had his power unit parts not gone to crap during the first part of the season, and left him with very poor grid places. Hamilton has consistently had poor reliability since 2014, and some sort of ‘balance’ change last year, after the ‘tire pressure gate’ forced some sort of ‘maneuver’. Now I see Mercedes don’t even want their guys talking to the media after practice sessions.

      The only thing floating Merc right now are the FIA. The only thing giving ROS half a chance this and the last two years are ‘reliability’ issues and some sort of ‘change’ Merc made to the car last year. HAM earns his keep, ROS has it handed to him, thats why HAM is a better more complete driver, he has walked over those hot coals.

      1. Ok. Nevertheless, he must be punished for similar maneuvers that Rosberg. But FIA protects him

    2. Now VES can get away with his moves too. New golden kid in FIA town.

  42. Several years from now, when Rosberg has moved on to a midfield team and has never won the WDC, he will look back on this season the same way Massa looks back on 2008: so near yet so far.

  43. A guy makes 2 aggressive moves his all career gets labelled a dirty driver. Today he made a great overtaking manoeuvre so the press askews Rosberg’s image and all of the sudden what was blatant discrimination is “good riddance”. I don’t get it. Nico is maybe a cynic and a wimp but I don’t think it is right that even though he’s one of the most privileged drivers in the grid, he has to deal with not being “true German”. He’s got nobody in his corner, RB made pressure the FIA penalized Nico and then made sure they were covering other previous incidents by fake reviewing them and clearing the drivers of any fault doing….

    1. @peartree, He’s been making dirty moves and pulling dirty tricks for ever. He actually had the rules altered several times to specifically be able to penalize the things he does. For instance pushing people off on the straight line after Abu Dhabi.

      He has a habit of closing the door forcefully on people after he already passed them while accelrating out of the corner, Which has led to plenty of needless colissions. het did it twice in one race in Hungary on both Ricciardo and Bottas. Plenty of dive-bombing.

      It’s actually quite rare to see a decent overtake from Rosberg.

      he should have penalized a lot more often for all his shenenigans. And then I’m not talking about how he pushed Hamilton off track in Australia or Canada 2014 (which hamilton returned the favor last time around in Canada) since those are allowed, but all the clearly illegal moves he did get away with like Spain and Spa.

      1. @patrickl Where is your hate coming from? I agree that the Rosberg of 2014 15 and 16 is not the same as 06-2013 nevertheless he has rightfully become more aggressive and he has to. He’s obviously still not aggressive enough. Vettel Ham Ricciardo and Verstappen are super aggressive, decisive overtakers and it is their decisiveness that allows the harsh moves to stick and not incur contact. Honestly when Verstappen moved under braking if in hindsight he shouldn’t have given any space at all, he’s damned if he’s nice damned if he’s aggressive. I do know why he got penalized I heard an australian was with the steward’s enough said.

        1. @peartree, What does this have to do with hate? I’m simply stating facts.

          It’s already 3 times that he had to change the rules to take care of Rosberg’s foul play.

          Also, what’s the nonsense about him being aggressive or not? All I’m saying is that he should stick to the rules.

          Vettel doesn’t know how to properly overtake either, but Ricciardo, Verstappen and Hamilton sure do (more oten than not at least). It’s not just being “aggressive”, it’s about timing and planning your move. Rosberg and Vettel seem to think that simply “not braking” and being “aggressive” is what makes an overtaking move. It isn’t and that’s why they get their penalties for these poor attempts (Vettel for shoving Massa off and Rosberg for shoving Verstappen off) and both don’t even understand that they did something wrong. Which is the basis of their problem really.

          1. @patrickl what facts? “both don’t even understand that they did something wrong” You are doing something wrong, you don’t get racing at all.

          2. Sorry, that I do understand the actual rules instad of the fairy peartreeland rules which you and your beloved Rosberg seem to be making up. It’s ok kid. Perhaps you will get it one day. Until then the stewards will keep telling Rosberg he was wrong again and amending the rules to keep stopping him from cheating.

  44. I wonder what would have happened in both Austria and here today if Rosberg had simply turned in on the proper racing line through the apex and then raced hard out of the corner.

    Even if he had still turned late and yet left a car width on the outside to the edge of the track. He wouldn’t have been penalized for one. He could have used his skills to race out of the corner and push out on the exit which is deemed acceptable. It is almost as though he is saying he does not have the confidence in his own skills to race that way, that the only chance he has is to drive the opponent off the track rather than to race fairly.

    I’m a fan of good, clean, hard, fun racing. But this tactic is not good, clean or fun.

    1. If he had turned the wheel earlier, he would have locked the brakes and would have slid even wider, with the possibility of colliding with Verstappen. The reason his braking trajectory was so late and narrow is because Verstappen interfered with his braking by jerking in front of him.

  45. I have to say that I agree with what Brundle, Davidson & Hill said during Sky’s coverage. What Nico did was perhaps on the limit but ultimately I feel it was just hard racing & I don’t feel it deserved a penalty. A warning possibly but not a penalty.

    I personally was far more concerned with Max jinking around in the braking zones again as that’s the kind of thing I’ve seen cause some really big airborne accidents over the years & its therefore something I just don’t like to see & really feel they should be clamped down on it rather than letting it go without even a warning. If you want to move to protect the middle/inside on the run down to a corner fine, But when you get to the point where everyone is going to start braking you really should hold your line.

    I don’t know if if will work for those outside the UK but I highly recommend watching Ant Davidson’s analysis of it on the skypad as he does a great job (As usual) of pointing out all the key points of the incident & why he feels the penalty was harsh:
    http://www.skysports.com/watch/video/sports/f1/10518478/rosberg-penalty-analysis

    1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
      31st July 2016, 21:20

      Channel 4 does see it different .. they say Rosberg is in the wrong … http://www.channel4.com/programmes/formula-1/on-demand/63760-044

      1. thats just a snap opinion, with more analysis like the sky guys have with there touchpad i bet they would end with a different view. also coulthard always sides with red bull because hes still part of the red bull program.

        seems most drivers & most fans feel the penalty was dumb…. therefore the penalty was obviously dumb.

        these anti-rosberg hamilton fans & verstappen fans just trying to make there favorite drivers look better while villifying the drivers they dislike. all of the unbias people seem to agree the penalty was silly.

        1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
          31st July 2016, 22:08

          a very knowledgable f1 journalist Peter Windsor (for over 30 years i might add) also says in his analysis that Rosberg pushed Max deliberately wide and that Max did nothing wrong .. at 5:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CMKThLWLgo ..

  46. Ridiculous decision today by the stewards. And I don’t even like Rosberg!

  47. I have been following every race for 20 years and i must admit that for the last couple of years, i find it hard to defend the sport against the critics. F1 is really becoming a sad sport with way too many rules. Rules for overtaking in straight lines (DRS), rules for overtaking in corners, rules for going off track (run off area killed the show), rules for tyres usage, rules for radio (the most laughable), etc… Rosberg did two messy overtakes in austria and germany, and? He hasn’t put anyone at risk and even penalised himself in austria. F1 is not (yet) an autonomous racing series. Actually, i find far more spectacular and exciting motogp nowadays, and i don’t even ride bikes. No penalties, no radio, a mistake equal end of the race, fantastic atmosphere in the grand stand.

    1. Motogp, no penalties? Did you not watch last year when Rossi and Marquez tangled? Marquez totally faked it and Rossi got sent to the back of the grid for the final race…

      Rosberg has had this spate of penalties coming for two years now, the stewards are finally cottoning onto his tricks and that he isn’t the innocent he always claims to be.

  48. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
    31st July 2016, 19:54

    The main this I am frustrated by is the fact that Rosberg received any sort of penalty. All that happened in the end was Max ended up loosing a tiny bit of time. Rosberg would probably have got past later anyway. Drivers have been forced off many times before without being given any penalty. If there was any contact involved with this incident and it affected Verstappen, then obviously a penalty would be much more appropriate for Rosberg. Verstappen obviously did have to go off track but what Rosberg did hardly caused him any problems so I don’t see why they gave him the time penalty + penalty points.

  49. Today Rosberg was not fast enough so he used an other method and failed, ending 4th. True justice.

  50. Just seen the in-car footage with Rosberg. I thought it was 50/50 to be honest, but guilty as charged. He starts turning way after the apex, the brake excuse (that he couldn’t turn before) is just nonsense, he was driving Verstappen off on purpose, as in the Austria/Hamilton situation. Good decision in fact.

    1. +1 Finally somebody with a good pair of eyes and an objective perspective…The press is creating the arrogant VES and people buy it.

  51. I’m guessing a lot you didn’t see the in car footage of Rosberg keeping his steering straight and only turning the wheel once he was happy that Verstappen would be forced off the track… the only surprise was that the stewards made a decision during the race that actually penalised Rosberg..Lets hope this stops him cheating in future.

  52. Rosberg braked very late, max lifted a bit early and steered into the corner while rosberg wasn’t next to him, but he was on cold tires straight out of the pits.

    I think the stewards were correct this time, cause it was forcing another car off track. Though not intentional. But in the end rosberg did the divebomb and missed the corner and it was going to be either causing a collision or pushing another drivers off track. 5 sec is just a slap on the wrist anyway.

  53. F1 is getting too soft.

  54. All these comments about moving in the breakzone are pathetic, really… if someone attacks a driver should just let them pass…? This is just 100% normal racing, how racing s ment to be.

    It’s been a week since all eyes are on Max and Rosberg is using this as a very weak excuse.
    Last year Verstappen overtaking was critisized a lot, it should be dangerous… at the end of the season he won about every award there was to win. This year Verstappen is pretty well in front of the grid, nt much to overtake and now the focus is on defending…? He hasn’t been under investigation once for a reason.

    Rosberg comming up with excuse his steering wheel was in locked position says it all, it was absurd… even Lauda couldn’t twist the facts and admitted Rosberg was in the wrong.

    1. Exactly, all eyes are on the youngster “what does he do this week” with a magnifying glass.

    2. Agree, in fact Max weaving about on track unexpectedly is one of the race highlights. OK, he has to be careful where he’s doing it, but being unpredictable is one of the skills I hope he keeps. Also his pass into second today off the grid start was a pleasure to watch, a flick to the left and a perfect angle to get past Ricciardo into the first corner. Great driver.

  55. This for me is a slam dunk penalty. Vettel got one at Silverstone with a similar move on Massa at Turn 3 and so did Sainz in Russia. Rosberg just has to suck it up, you can’t force another car off the track and he simply did that

  56. A lot of people are defending Rossberg’s move here, and I just don’t understand it. Suppose that we saw the exact same situation, but add clouds of white smoke from his locked brakes. Everyone would agree, I hope, that he had waited too long to brake, had made a much too aggressive move to the inside that he couldn’t safely pull off, and had slid deep into the turn dangerously, the effect of which was that he had run Verstappen off the track. Open and shut, right?

    Why then is it different when there is no white smoke? Either the driver on the inside has an advantage in braking skill,fresh/better tires, or a better chassis, and can make the turn without running his opponent off the track, or he has made a mistake and, at best, must give up the position? If I run you off the road because I’m sliding out of control or because I’m just aggressive, the effect, and danger, is the same. And Rossberg has now done this twice in a handful of races. This is why I agree with these stewards’ decision.

  57. The way the stewards apply the rule book leads to the following, inescapable conclusions:

    * Bernie and FOM want Hamilton to be VC for commercial reasons as he is the most popular driver on the grid

    * Red Bull have negotiated a deal with Bernie and FOM in which they withdraw their threats of quitting in return for preferential treatment of Verstappen

  58. Still a bit of a clumsy move by Rosberg i reckon. but maybe giving the place back as a penallty would of been more accurate, not 5 sec penalty thats too harsh

  59. Two things to raise here:
    1) Alan Jones, acting as Australian TV pundit, said Rosberg’s move was fair and well within the limits of what is allowed. Essentially his opinion is that Rosberg is the one making the move and chose the inside line and has the right to squeeze Max into giving up position (just as Hamilton did to Rosberg in Austin).

    Former drivers usually have interesting opinions, but his is important because he was the driver’s steward last time out in Hungary. This is important because it means drivers are now going to have to research who is on the stewards panel and how they decide on penalties before the race. If you know AJ is driver steward, get your elbows out: It’s all on. If it is Emmo again you better be prepared to wait to be asked to pass.

    2) For my 2c worth, if Max didn’t move in the braking zone yet again, he would have been able to cut back under Rosberg at the apex. And so what if Max got run off track beyond the white lines? Apparently white lines do not matter anymore, except at certain points of the track. But even then not on certain laps with certain drivers.

    Just shows how chaotic the rule making and judging has become. They try to fix F1, yet it just opens itself up for more ridicule.

    NB. After giving it more thought, I reckon Alan Jones sits in the steward’s room with the words “Racing Incident” written on paddle. Incident referred to stewards? Show the paddle. Dubious move to be reviewed? Paddle. Track limits? Paddle.

  60. The rules say that if you in front you are entitled to take the racing line, but unfortunately for Rosberg the line he took was anything but the racing line. What actually happened was he broke and steered to late to take the racing line, and therefore had to take a line that forced Max off the track. His whimpering about the little jink in the breaking is just noise, he had no intention of doing anything but pushing Max off the track. He may have got away with it in the past and boy how many times he has !! But since he was caught using stock car racing tactics in Austria – the stewards now know that he has form and so no more benefit of the doubt. It’s quite interesting that some people are suggesting a bias against Rosberg by the stewards. How can they be when last week, they took three hours to even realise that he had not lifted sufficiently under double waved yellows, did not penalise him and this week they change the rules to double yellow means Red in qualifying!! Rosbergs on track ethics have always been questionable, and it is about time that he is punished for this.

  61. Melchior (@)
    1st August 2016, 7:34

    There’s a rumor floating around that Nico Rosberg is looking to change his name to Valentino Rosberg ;) ;)

  62. A well-deserved penalty. No attempt to make to corner, or even steer into it, until the very last minute. He didn’t even lock up – it was a controlled, ugly, cynical move. The only difference between this and Austria was that Verstappen didn’t turn in on the expectation that Rosberg would actually try to go around the corner whereas Hamilton did.

    How such an experienced driver can behave in such a way is beyond me. I think Rosberg’s confidence is just shot to pieces now, and he’s making split second irrational decisions that are proving to be very poor, and throwing away what may prove to be his best opportunity for a WDC in the process.

  63. Poor driving by ROS, who was obviously not having the best of days. I was at the track and watched heaps of GP2 drivers stick a pass in that particular turn. Why couldn’t Rosberg just do a clean one, especially with a Mercedes Engine and DRS. Rosberg’s move was rushed (he wasn’t close enough to VES) so it became an uncontrolled dive-bomb.

    On a side-note… Had that run-off tarmac been grass, almost all of the people here that defend Rosberg would’ve seen at first sight just how illegal the move was.

  64. What was the difference between Rosberg’s move and Magnussen’s? The first part anyway – the method of finding a gap and then slamming the anchors on. The key bit is after where Ves was pushed wide on exit?

    With hamilton, Rosberg was NEVER going to allow Lewis a point to turn in. NEVER. But with Ves, he was only halfway past the apex before he turned, and then he genuinely did seem to be on full lock? It’s a hard one, but he’s taking a lot of stick for it.

    I also don’t get all this, ‘you must always try to make the racing line/apex’ – even saying the gentlefolk of 2CV racing even abide by this. It’s complete nonsense! When you are fighting for position none of that could or should count. So long as it’s fair (I’m not sure in Germany Rosberg’s move was unfair).

  65. Fudge Ahmed (@)
    1st August 2016, 14:32

    Hilarious how Rosberg fans are claiming bias against him with the amount of things he has got away with over the past 3 seasons. Going as far as to change the regulations on yellow flags after just the last race in an obvious acknowledgement of how dangerous it was yet no penalty was given.

  66. When I first saw Rosberg’s move on Verstappen it was the low camera angle on the outside of the hairpin and I thought that Rosberg had just done the standard move of staying on the racing line and running the other car wide on the exit of the corner, so I didn’t have a problem with it. That is the move that Rosberg is very critically of when it is done to him though,

    But when they showed replays from other angles it was clear that was not what Rosberg had done and it was more like a not bothering to turn in move until both cars are at the edge of the track, as he did in Austria.

    It was slightly different this time as there was some movement on the steering wheel before he made a proper attempt to take the corner, but it was essentially the same, because of that I was not surprised when Rosberg received a penalty.

    However I thought with the pace Rosberg had he would either pull a big enough gap that the penalty had no affect or that after his stop he would manage to close up again on Verstappen and make another attempt to get past.

    Neither of those things happened and Rosberg only finished fourth, even without the extra time at the stop due to Mercedes stopwatch problems I don’t think that would have been any different.

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