Sebastian Vettel, Fernando Alonso, Circuit of the Americas, 2012

Alonso feels luck cost him two titles to Vettel

F1 Fanatic Round-up

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In the round-up: Fernando Alonso believes he could have been world champion instead of Sebastian Vettel in 2010 and 2012 with better luck.

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  • 69 comments on “Alonso feels luck cost him two titles to Vettel”

    1. If CVC sells F1, it will be one of the greatest days in the history of F1. I honestly think selling F1 to SkyTV would actually be a good thing for F1- even though it is a Murdoch-owned business…

      1. knoxploration
        11th August 2016, 12:25

        Sky owning F1 would be the final nail in the coffin of free-to-air coverage, especially in Europe.

      2. Wouldn’t be so sure that Sky or any other broadcaster buying into F1 would necessarily be a good thing for the broadcast at least as while CVC largely stayed out of the actual broadcasting part of things which allowed FOM to produce the world-feed in a more neutral way; If a broadcaster such as Sky were to buy them they are almost certainly going to start pushing FOM towards following there on-air team & what/who they want to talk about just like you see with US categories.

        For example go back & look at the live pre-season testing coverage Sky produced a few years ago, There were numerous times during that when we were spending large periods of time watching whoever it was that was been talked about on commentary at that time even if he wasn’t doing anything interesting at that time.

      3. I love unbridled optimism. Any time F1 gets sold, there’s a 50/50 chance it’ll get better… and a 50/50 chance it’ll get worse.

      1. Someone posted that link the other day. The project was abandoned in late 2014. It sounds like the whole plan was a bit of a sham to fill a clause that the meant that they had to replace the old Jacarepaguá circuit somewhere else in Rio. Allegedly the site needs clearing of landmines before anything could be built!

        I can’t believe that after 5 years I’ve had not only my first, but also second COTD within the same week. Down side is that both were regarding really depressing subjects!

    2. We all seem to think that CVC dumping F1 is a great thing..all I can say is that I hope it will be a great thing.

      The biggest bug bear we’ve all had with CVC is that they siphoned off billions from the sport to service their loans and investors. From their investors’ perspective, CVC are geniuses, if the sale goes ahead for the figures that have been mentioned, its will be one of the greatest returns on investment ever.

      What will the new investors do? They are buying it at far greater cost than CVC, they would most certainly like to get some return on their investment. If the consortium that Sky is associated with buys F1, it would be in their best interest to re-invest as much as possible back into the sport…lets hope.

      1. +1. You don’t know what you’ve got until it’s gone, a phrase I feel applies very well here. It could be an improvement or it could ruin F1 completely.

    3. It would be really easy to comment based upon that Alonso head line but I’m going to go read the article…

      …Well I was expecting it to be totally out of context but no he is totally playing the what if game. Problem is old Nando that you can’t just play what if for yourself. Vettel had bad luck those seasons as well, so did plenty of drivers. You also benefited in those seasons from good luck. The Valencia win in 2012 for instance required a lot of bad luck for other drivers for him to chance into the win. The 2nd place at Catalunya 2012 was a nice gift from McLaren not fuelling Hamilton correctly. That Alonso was always in a position to opportunistically grab those results when others slipped up is testament to his incredible skill, but a couple of instances of bad luck measured against a wealth of good luck still makes it pointless to play what if.

      It wasn’t bad luck that robbed you of those championships, not when you consider how much good luck put him in contention. No it was bad cars, he just wasn’t in a team giving him cars with a fair chance at winning it.

      1. Alonso had a car capable of winning the title on 2010, but other than that I agree with you. Anyone can play the what if game, or as I like to call it, coulda shoulda woulda. Using Alonso’s logic, Kimi could have won the title in 05 with better luck, and Schumacher could have won the title in 06 with better luck, leaving Alonso a 0 time world champion. He just sounds like a very bitter person these days. I mean he’s always been not only a sore loser, but also a sore winner, but he sounds genuinely butthurt about other drivers getting more titles than him. It was his choice to blackmail Ron Dennis and screw up his chances with Mclaren, it was his choice to go back to Renault even though everyone knew they were on a downward slide, it was his choice to go to Ferrari when all the staff responsible for their dominance were leaving or had left, and it was his choice to turn down a drive at Red Bull even though they were on a hiring spree of top talent and had Adrian Newey. His lack of a third title is at least as much to do with his poor choices as it is to do with bad luck.

        1. Very well put. Seems for Nando, “taking responsibility” isn’t one of his strong points.

        2. Let us remember 2005, 2006 and 2007, 2010, 2012.

          2005- How many failures Kimi had during the season? A big chunk. 2005 championship without misfortune/alternate championship. On this website too.
          2006- Probably his title. Cause Alonso also had bad luck during the season…
          2007- Kimi’s title. Check alternative championship of 2006 in this website.
          2010- Not even close. Vettel had failures during the season.
          2012- Vettel vs Hamilton.

          Alonso is honestly one of the luckiest drivers in f1 if looking at it correctly.

      2. Don’t forget the 2006 suzuka where Michael ‘s engine blowed up and alonso won that title easily in brazil

        1. True, But remember that Alonso had his own engine failure 2 races before at Monza.

      3. I think the what if scenario would be, what if Alonso had taken up Red Bull’s offer in 2008? And Red Bull had gone with a Alonso/Vettel pairing? I think 2010 marked Webber’s peak driving skill wise and it was all down hill from there which even he seems to admit now, even going as far as to say in a interview recently that Ricciardo is faster than he ever was in his career.

        I really do not think Vettel would have gotten 4 world championships with a teammate on the level of Alonso/Hamilton/Ricciardo. It seems to me he just never had a super quick teammate to be compared with, so obviously all of the glory and hype surrounding Red Bull’s surge to the top was focused on him.

        1. Similarly, Alonso may not have achieved 2 titles if a driver better than Fisichella drove the Renault. In fact, Button might have had those titles, had Briatore kept young Button in the car alongside Trulli.

          1. And Hamilton might not have won in 2008 had he not had Heikki, or Schumacher might not have won any title had he not had Barichello. Hamilton might have lost on the last two had he Alonso next to him. Or in the end they all would’ve won the same titles they have now. You can’t know, only guess.

            In the end (yes, I’m bias as I’m a Webber fan) Webber does not get enough credit. Vettel in 2011 and 2013 was just supreme. In 2012 Webber bounced back but that’s where Vettel his talent again brought him forward. People often talk down on Webber so they can continue to talk down on Vettel (his titles). Even in the 2015 season review Eddie Jordan still talks about ‘him needing 2015 to confirm Vettel his talent’ because it was all Newey, which remains the biggest load of nonsense in the past few years.

            1. “Webber does not get enough credit. ”
              On the contrary, Webber gets too much credit. In the 4 years that Vettel won Webber didn’t even manage P2 in the championship. In 2011 Vettel blitzed the field and won 11 races and Webber won just once. That is just poor. In 2013, it was the same story, Vettel won 13times and Webber nothing.

            2. @realstig agreed. If Webber was right behind Vettel post 2010 history would judge him favourably. But he just wasn’t on it and on balance I think he gets the judgement he deserves- quick on his day but not world championship material nevermind a great.

            3. But Hamilton had Alonso as a teammate in 2007 and was only 1 point shy off winning the world championship and in his rookie year..? Alonso was right along side him on the same amount of points. They are the actual only two F1 drivers on the grid that have actually properly proven themselves against a top teammate in the hunt for a WDC. (Vestappen and Ricciardo possibly in the future) What would people have said about Vettel’s WDC’s if Alonso had stayed at Ferrari and Vettel been consistently beaten by Ricciardo?

              I just don’t understand the whole Vettel was supreme especially in 2011, Red Bull had a car that was in a completely different league to every other team and possibly had the most downforce out of any modern F1 car. Each race was pretty much decided in qualifying and then with a clear track infront of him could just cruise to the finish without seeing another car, unless he was lapping them..There’s no possible way of knowing how well he actually drove compared to a Hamilton or Alonso considering his teammate under performed horrifically that year.

              Jenson Button beat Webber to 2nd in the championship that year when Webber was in one of the most dominant cars that we’d seen in a long time..And ontop of that Jenson had 2 retirements vs Webber with only 1..Webber didn’t even finish in the top three in 8 races that year..And the Mclaren was by far just the best of the rest.

            4. @JammyB
              In 2011, you’ll find Massa underperformed at least to the extent Webber did, barely finishing ahead of Rosberg snd Schumacher. Alonso drove very well to finish within a few points of Webber and Button, with a worse car. Hamilton underperformed as well, not to the extent of Massa, but was poor.

            5. Vettel’s performance in 2011 was incredibly high overall, with 15 poles (all time record) and 11 wins. Not always were they that easy, Malaysia, Spain, Monaco, Belgium, Italy and Korea were all races where others were capable of challenging the Bulls. They weren’t as dominant as the second half of 2013, or Mercedes in 2014/15, for instance.

            6. Again this bull about one Red Bull driver being overated…

              Red Bull was nowhere near Mercedes level of dominant…

              Yet Vettel racked up poles at Jim Clark rate, dominated races like a Schumacher and has beaten Alonso, Hamilton in competitive cars and Webber in equal car.

              I think after 4 titles all doubt about a driver can be dispelled.

            7. How do you judge Red Bull not being as dominant..? They won 4 championships in a row, the only reason they didn’t have constant 1,2’s was for the reason stated above not having 2 competitive drivers in one team. If say someone like Ricciardo joined Red Bull 3-4 years earlier and able to stay on Vettel’s tail or vice versa Red Bull’s domination would have been very similar to Mercedes. There would have been 1 extra car in the case of 2012 infront of Alonso, which means the points he scored would have been reduced dramatically. Webber just seemed never able to fully get to grips with the new era of tyre management and fuel saving which he was quite vocally against.

              Atleast with the last couple of years we’ve actually seen fighting between the 2 teammates in the dominant team, and actually finishing within sight of eachother..Even drama coming together multiple times fighting for the lead..How many times did we see the 2 drivers in the best car fighting so hard for the lead that they came together between 2010-2013? Once..

            8. @JammyB
              “They won 4 championships in a row”, doesn’t mean each individual year was dominant. 2010 and 2012 saw Ferrari & Mclaren able to challenge for the title (and Lotus pretty close to thr three teams in 2012). A bit like 2000 and 2003 being nothing like 2002 and 2004 in terms of competitiveness.

              And “if” a different driver was in the place of Webber… Red Bull’s dominance of 2011 and 2013 still wouldn’t have reached Mercedes levels. Mclaren had a good car in 2011, that won 6 races on merit, and challenged for a few more. In the first half of 2013, most of the 6 wins not picked up by Red Bull were again, on merit by some of the other fast cars of that period, not down to anyone’s underperformance.

      4. @philipgb I’ve always got a general feeling that Fernando considers that Vettel hit the lucky patch with RBR while he never got in that position post 2006 and hence has always been quite bitter about Vettel and RBR success while you rarely find him speak about Hamilton or Kimi who fought him hard in 2007.

        1. @neelv27
          Well, your general feeling may actually be based upon some of Alo’s quotes. He has been quoted as saying that he would like to see Vet in a car that is not a RB (back in the day that it was the best on the grid), sort of implying hís titles were RB’s. And he’s not alone. Ham has said he’s not so sure whát to think about Vet’s skills, bc he didn’t think much of the (limited number of) teammates Vet has had and thinking of Kimi as being well over the hill. He said it just last year, thereby btw contradicting an earlier statement (before Vet’s 1st title I think), in which he said he was expecting himself and Vet to dominate F1 in the years to come. In the same interview he said that Alo is probably his hardest competitor yet, and that may be mutual. When I hear Alo speak about Ham, it’s always with respect and acknowledgement of his skills, despite that troubled season together.

          1. @krxx
            He, Ham, didn’t think much of Web specifically and noticed Vet got beaten by Ric.

      5. Many people could have lucked in to a few more world champkonships… Michael Schumacher could have 9 or 10 with similar luck Alonso would need to have 4.

        My father always told me luck goes to the bold. Vettel certainly was bold and came up luckier when the season ended.

        Alonso sure got unlucky, he made seemingly smarter choices that ended being not smarter in retrospect.

        That being said, he made more money being a non champion in Ferrari than Vettel did as a champion at Red Bull. And now he gets paid same ammount at McLaren for driving in second tier of F1. Not bad.

        1. Maybe Vettel was making his own luck working hard behind the scenes while other drivers dangled there balls in the pool….

    4. “The Valencia win in 2012 for instance required a lot of bad luck for other drivers ”

      Perhaps..but that was one of the best drives ever in my opinion..what a race that was.

      1. OmarRoncal - Go Seb!!! (@)
        11th August 2016, 3:51

        @jaymenon10 Vettel engine blew out, and don’t forget Korea 2010 as well. So I agree more with @philipgb about these lucky whatifs.

      2. @jaymenon10 It was one of the best driver, and it would’ve also been had it ended at P2 behind Vettel (who also was on a very, very dominant drive). Obviously a win is more memorable.

    5. Those viewing figures make depressing reading, I wonder how low they can go ?
      And could they drop below a million without free to air ?

      1. In New Zealand, where I live, you can’t see F1 on Free to Air TV, and haven’t been able to for about 10 years or so. For the most part F1 is just an also ran. The Australian V8 Saloon series is more popular. By lunch time Monday morning (races usually occur in the early hours of Monday morning) the F1 results have stopped being broadcast on the sports round up, and as far as I can tell hardly anyone knows who Nico Rosberg or Lewis Hamilton are.
        So yes, I guess the viewing audience in the UK could easily drop below 1 million. It really depends on the way the Pay TV packages it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if it was marketed as a premium product, so even those with a basic Pay TV package wouldn’t be able to see it.
        While there are rumours CVC is selling their stake in F1, my guess is not to get excited about this because a new owner would want to recoup their investment.

      2. 2-odd-million people did not stop watching F1 all of a sudden. We just find other ways of watching.

      3. The Sky audience would have to increase 40% for it to break the 1 million mark, and most of the people who would have been inclined to opt for Sky have already done so. In fact this is the second year in a row that the audience has fallen to record lows for the Sky element of the coverage.

        The F1 channel is packaged with the Sport channels (so not available with basic packages, but the most common “extra” add-on), but is no longer purely F1 – it had darts on for part of the winter season. I suspect that the level of dedication to the F1 coverage will reduce further with time unless Sky buys out F1 (in which case, it may decide to use F1 as a loss-leader, but will still struggle to hit the 1-million mark unless it puts all the races on Pick – Sky’s free-to-air Freesat channel that is expected to have the British Grand Prix simulcast onto it).

      4. I’ve gradually stopped following MotoGP because it went to delayed highlights for me. I never used to miss a race, followed the championship as it developed, but without live races it’s lost its interest. I know the result before I watch and it loses its tension. No tension = no drama.

        So while I have SkyF1 I can understand fans who don’t losing interest, whether it’s BBC or Ch4. It is a gradual process.

        Pay TV is a short term grab for the cash, because it does inevitably kill the sport. Look at cricket. Only football can take it. So I wonder whether, if Sky bought F1, they’d have to change their model and offer something FTA, with extras for $$$.

        1. “I’ve gradually stopped following MotoGP because it went to delayed highlights for me.”

          I never, i’ve just found other ways of watching it.

      5. Don’t forget as well, over the last year or 2, these ‘TV boxes’ that use certain software to stream almost any channel available, have boomed in popularity.

    6. Yeah had Kimi’s Mclaren didn’t blew up every other race and had Schumi car doesn’t die at exit of Degner 2 you will be having 0 titles in your hand and 2007 also rings a bell. So luck has both ways fernando. You are best driver but your attitude is what bring you down some times in my opinion.

      1. Spot On. People tend to ponder upon their own bad luck compared to someone’s good luck.
        They never seem to remember their own godsend against someone who had terrible luck(Kimi).
        These things seem to even themselves out. If he believes he should’ve had the 2010,12 titles then the 2005 title and 2006 one should’ve gone to Kimi & Schumacher commensurately.

        1. Yeah coin has two sides… And one flip could have even had a Webber title…

          Alonso is great enough to be in position to get lucky. 2/5 is pretty good, most drivers are nowhere near… Look at Nico Rosberg 0/3 it seems…

          Meanwhile Vettel 4/4.

          Hamilton has like 3/5 or even more?

          No point to talk about that now as he is nowhere near title fight since 2013.

    7. I also wonder what is it about VMax that every other week we find about a better atmosphere at STR post his departure or DRic talking about change in atmosphere post his arrival.

      I am sure that we miss out on a lot things that goes on behind the scenes.

      1. What it is about him is the killer mentality. Perhaps a bit stubbornness too. And the fact that he’s better than his teammates.

        1. @hahostolze last year he was level with Sainz, not better. Furthermore, Sainz was one of the unlickiest man on the grid, which does not help.

          1. *unluckiest*

          2. And Verstappen was one of the other unluckiest men on the grid. It’s such nonsense to attribute the difference between the two of them to luck.

      2. I think the STR team never was properly prepared and geared up to cope with/manage a driver rivalry like they got with Verstappen and Sainz next to eachother @neelv27.

        1. @bascb
          And what’s your explanation for the change in atmosphere at RB?

          1. No explenation, except fiercly competitive teenager aiming to destroy his teammate by any means.

            If he is any similar to his moving under braking rutine… We can imagine Red Bull has their hands full.

            STR situation was rapidly imploading hence the move. Probably offers from other teams were used as blackmail etc

          2. Joss ;)

          3. The change of atmosphere at RBR @Krxx? You mean the team going from also ran mid grid with an outside chance of the podium and feeling without purpose towards a team trying to snap at MErcedes heels, beating Ferrari more often than not and both drivers pulling out epic improvements?

            It shows that Red Bull IS a team geared towards this kind of thing, it needs 2 rivaling drivers pushing the team onward and forward to be that little extra motivation to beat the field. I think it has greatly invigorated the spirit inside the team really.

            1. @bascb
              Hohoho, hold your horses.. I was just referring to Neel Jani’s first remark about TR and RB. You gave a possible explanation regarding the first half and I asked you about the second. And now you answered. And I tend to partially agree, but don’t you think the Ren-upgrade has the most to do with the rise of performance at RB?

      3. I liked the reply from Key when he said that Sainz should learn to focus on his own performance instead of droning on and on about Verstappen. That’s what the real issue was in that team.

        Sainz clearly couldn’t deal with being constantly beaten by Verstappen and every race he had the excuses and stories how he was better, but that it just didn’t come out on that occasion. It’s simply embarrassing.

        Ricciardo had the same issue for the first few races. He couldn’t even see how he would never have won in Spain because he was too busy ruining his strategy and tyres while fighting Vettel. Now that they let him win in Hockenhhein Ricciardo is over the moon again.

        In all this you never hear Verstappen talk about a team mate. He just does his thing.

    8. Alonso, Mourinho, Sir Alex Ferguson epitomize arrogance, greed and fooling ordinary people like me. If they win, they have definitely earned it (won on merit) but if they lose, it was just LUCK being on the opponent’s side. Many people around us do the same. There is a second way, you can win and lose in grace, like Rafael Nadal, Mika Hakkinen, Sir Steve Redgrave. Or you can be selfish like Michael Jordan, but MJ never said and claimed that he lost just because of lacking LUCK.

      1. @sl300forf1 All Alonso said was that with a bit of luck, he could’ve had 2 more world titles. That a tiny bit of luck could’ve made him have twice the number of championships. And as he’s only 8 points from being a 5-time WDC, I see his point.

      2. Michael Jordan has 6 championships from 6 NBA finals, with 6 finals MVP’s (most valuable player) to his name.

        The GOAT never really lost.

        1. Of course MJ lost, from 1985 until 1990: six seasons without winning the ch’ship. My point is people do tend to blame luck for their own failures which His Airness never said. Alonso could not use his talent (what Andrea Stella asked him during the race in Abu Dhabi) to become the champion. And to be fair: in 2010 luck was never on Vettel’s side. Besides, in 2006 MS engine went Ka-boom in Suzuka and FA was on pole to win the championships. IMO, Alonso takes a lot of credit to be most of time in the contentions to win and 2x WDC is really good and he is definitely a bona fide great in the F1 history and a great competitor.

    9. I always thought the ‘what if’ scenario’s were a treat for fans to ponder about. Never saw it in a man like Alonso to think about as surely he must know those races he did not have the luck were cancelled out by those had had lady luck on his side. There have been many comparisons and they always show Alonso has been the most fortunate when it comes to inheriting points from other drivers their misfortunes.

      Alonso is slowly turning very bitter, I think he is starting to realise that third title will never come, ever worse he’s starting to realise standing a last time on the podium will already have happened in 2014. The man is 35 (?) and without a doubt still has tremendous skill but the car won’t be there for him in the coming seasons. If I was him I had looked for a competetive seat elsewhere long ago, I can’t believe offers aren’t being thrown at him every week.

      1. @xtwl I think we’re hearing more of these “what if” scenarios from Alonso because he’s spent such a long time away from the front of the field. Even in his return to Renault in 2008 after the original McLaren fall out, he was still able to get on the podium and win (even if crash-gate was involved).

        The McLaren project is taking longer than he ever expected, and so he is frustrated and left having to reminisce about when he fought at the front week in week out.

        As for the future for him. I’m not so certain that it will be bleak purely on age. Hill won his world title when he was 36 after all. Jo Pavey is competing in the Women’s 10000 metres at the Rio Olympics for Great Britain on merit at the age of 42, also having won gold in the European Championships at age 40. American Kristin Armstrong won gold in the women’s cycling time trial at the Olympics on the eve of her 43rd birthday only 2 or 3 days ago. Whether Alonso still has the ability over the next number of years purely depends on his body and motivation. Whether we see him at the sharp end of the grid depends on if the work done by McLaren and Honda yields a competitive car. With a big change in regulations on its way, all of us, including Alonso himself, will have to wait and see

        1. Well they are at their peak at 30-31, that’s the average age of wdc’s. Then it’s a slow decline but it accelerates after say 35, when they start to make more errors. There can be exceptions but Hill and Mansell had a huge car advantage.

          The new 2017 cars might make things harder for Alonso, being snappier. Anyway I hope something good can happen for him in the next couple of years. I don’t object to his mind management, personally, I just see it as part of his intensity.

    10. So did Fernando think McLaren would be more lucky..

    11. Am I the only one who feels Fernando really doesn’t hold that much respect for Vettel? He has been more openly critical of Vettel compared to other drivers (bar Hamilton in 2007 and a few years after that- but that’s understandable as they were bitter team mates). I’m not particularly a Vettel fan, neither do I think he is the best on the current grid- but comeon the guy has talent. He won 4 consecutive championships and he proved himself winning with a Ferrari that wasn’t the class of the field- just like other world champions including Alonso himself and Hamilton, Button have done. Maybe Alonso should be paired with Vettel before his soon to be swansong, that might make him respect him more as I am sure over 1 lap Vettel would be ahead more often than not but race pace wise is probably more of an unknown. Not very classy of Alonso I have to say.

      1. I think quite a lot of the grid doesn’t respect Vettel to be honest.

        And considering he got crushed in 2014 when we were all having his ‘greatness’ shoved down our throats, it looks as though they were proven right.

        1. The teams repeatedly vote Vettel as best or 2nd best (6 times in fact), so yeah, he is respected by much of the grid. And considering that he is a four time champion, his “greatness” is unquestionable.

        2. To be fair every WDC on the grid has had a bit of a dressing down by a team mate. Button in 2010 and 2012, Alonso in 2007 and last year, Kimi by Massa even, Hamilton by Button in 2011 and obviously Vettel by Ricciardo. Even non champions like Ricciardo- he was beat by Kyvat but would you really say that Kyvat is a better driver than RIC? So that alone doesn’t hold much weight in my opinion.

        3. Agreed. Vettel never got much respect from other drivers even when Vettel was winning his championships.. Especially drivers like Alonso or Hamilton who knew it was mostly the car. They praised Newey for his achievements. 2014 demonstrated that quite clearly. Even on the odd occasion that Vettel accidentily found himself ahead of Ricciardo (usualy due to a bad pitstop or puncture for RIC), he was holding him up badly.

          Hamilton scoring less points than Button in 2011 and Ricciardo less than Kvyat in 2015 was a completely different story. Hamilton and Ricciardo were both much faster than their team mates, but they were trying to hard to go for a single win or good result in a race. They had nothing to go for by finishing in 4th or 5th anyway.

          Like how Ricciardo tried to go for the win in Hungary, but in his haste ended up in collisions with other drivers and in the end finished behind Kvyat.

          So they scored a few less points, but they were clearly faster. They could also have just lamely finished their races and beat their team mates, but they went for a bit more glory and on occasion that cost them some points. In other cases it did give them wins in races that you would never have expected them to win.

          That’s completely different from how Vettel was outclassed in just about every race in 2014.

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