Start Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, 2016

Vettel and Hamilton should have penalties – Ricciardo

2016 Mexican Grand Prix

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Daniel Ricciardo believes Sebastian Vettel and Lewis Hamilton should be penalised for incidents during the Mexican Grand Prix.

Ricciardo accused his former team mate Vettel of changing his line under braking while they were battling late in the race. Vettel is under investigation for the incident.

“I just felt that Seb did what everyone has been complaining about lately, moving under braking,” Vettel told the media. “He’s smiling now… I don’t know, for me he doesn’t deserve to be up there with that move he pulled.”

Start Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez, 2016
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“I saw he defended halfway down the straight, I was going to go to the outside and then it just looked like he opened it so I committed to the inside. I thought I had every right to be there, and then he just kept closing the door under braking.

“So I’ve locked the brakes trying to avoid contact but he kept closing so in the end I had nowhere to go. So I was frustrated with that.”

“We know Max’s moves have been a bit questionable, I guess that was the same case today with Seb,” Ricciardo continued.

“Don’t get me wrong, I love racing hard, I love seeing locking brakes and even a bit of contact is fine. But this whole moving under braking, if you’re going to defend, you commit early and that’s it, you make your bed.

“You don’t do it once you’ve already been outfoxed. I feel like that’s what I did today. Seb was there, he moved, I went, so it’s like I won the chess match if you like. And then he’s like ‘oh, I screwed up, and now I’m going to try and repair my mistake’. For me that’s not right.”

Ricciardo also gave his view on the debate over the battle between his team mate and Vettel. Verstappen was given a five-second penalty after cutting turn one while battling with the Ferrari.

“To be honest also I didn’t understand the start, how you can be leading the race, defend, lock your wheels and go off-track and still stay in the lead. I think Lewis [Hamilton] deserved a penalty. I think anyone in that position deserves a penalty.

“I saw Max cut the chicane trying to defend Seb, he got a penalty. So I don’t know, to be honest, what was that different with his move and Lewis’s. For me if you lock up the brakes and cut the corner, it’s a mistake, you have to pay the price. I was a bit frustrated with how it all panned out today, really.”

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Keith Collantine
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  • 61 comments on “Vettel and Hamilton should have penalties – Ricciardo”

    1. so, all 3 that finished ahead of you need to have penalties then? and you inherit the win right?

      1. Well, if they give LH a penalty he still wins the race.

      2. Dan’s the only driver who managed to stay on the track in the top 5 so yes, he makes an excellent point.

      3. @ivan-vinitskyy it’s not about that, it’s about having two measurements when it comes to handing out penalties. F1 has become famous for that lately. If you check the way Lewis and Nico left the track at turn 1 in lap 1, it was identical (at least Lewis’ mistake) to that of Verstappen. Both were under severe pressure from the guy(s) behind.
        So the point is: either Verstappen should not have been handed this penalty or both Nico and Lewis should’ve gotten it as well. I can see the point in them knowing Verstappen is about to pull off a defending move and knowing and willingly keeping that position after his mistake, they want to hand him a penalty. That’s fair. But in this case the result should’ve been that the stewards would’ve need to think about the first corner issue and just not force the penalty either.

        1. If we were to look at the turn one on Ham’s side, Ver was dive bombing, if he tried to make the corner, Ver was gonna bunch him up, Ros went off due to avoiding action! Ver clearly didnt intended to make the corner safely either…

          2 wrongs doesnt make it right… but first corners are always a bit dilemma all the time… Ham didnt cause a collision, but if he did try to brake earlier, Ver was def gonna dive bomb or rear ended him…

        2. @addvariety all for having same standards however I don’t agree with your definition of ‘identical’
          To compare, Lewis has a gap behind and nobody was attacking him, comparatively speaking of course. If Ham had braked earlier, nobody would have attempted an overtake.
          Max on the other hand was being chased by Vet who was much closer and if Max had braked earlier Vet would have a very good chance of overtaking him.

          Now I’m not going to say that it wasn’t some kind of an advantage that Ham had by going off. Of course, taking turn 2 after going off at turn 1 will have compromised his exit out of 3 and maybe he would have lost the position but in Max’s case the cut was a lot more advantages. We have to draw the line somewhere when to penalise a driver for cutting a corner and when not to. I really wish Keith would create a poll to understand where people stand whne it comes to driving standards. For me it’s like this:
          1. Ham at start – no penalty
          2. Ros at start – penalty (give place back)
          3. Ver vs Vet – penalty (give place to Vet)
          4. Vet vs Ric – Penalty (3 place grid drop at next race)
          5. Vet vs microphone (5 place grid drop)

          1. Ham no advantage? He took a few hundred metres off the corner on lap one. How is that not an advantage? F1 is a joke when it comes to penalties being consistent.

          2. Michael Brown (@)
            31st October 2016, 2:01

            No advantage? You laid out the case for Hamilton to take a penalty. He braked too late, but by cutting the corner, he avoided the consequences for that mistake.

            1. He didnt keep a lasting advantage. Thats key here.
              Had he carried the initial advantage for the next few laps there would be grounds for a penalty. But the pack quickly caught him again after a short period.

            2. @theoddkiwi :

              He didnt keep a lasting advantage.

              With respect, but that’s such a baffling statement.

          3. @ivan-vinitskyy First of all, it’s VES not VER. Vergne is now racing in Formula E. ;-)

            I don’t agree with you, Ham at start should’ve been given a penalty. I agree with you that he wasn’t directly under attack, but he made a massive error and cut off turn 2 by at least 20-30 meters, that’s 4-5 cars. He would’ve never joined in the top 3 places if he had joined the track at turn 2 again. That’s the “gaining an advantage” we’re talking about.

            #2 is debatable, Rosberg had to avoid a collision, so I now see it as a racing incident.
            #3 is correct, Verstappen should’ve given the position back, but the team made the gamble. They told him “keep your position for now, but we think you need to give it back”. He would’ve ended up 5th anyway with a fast approaching Ricciardo anyway (who let VES by earlier by the way, so VES wouldn’t have held him up probably). So this decision to keep his position on track was a gamble that didn’t work this time, but his penalty was fair, so I agree.
            #4 agree with the fact that Vettel should receive a penalty, but I’m 100% against penalties in the next race. He did something this race, so should be penalised this time, not the next. This should be the case every time, except when someone does something dangerous in the practice or quali sessions during that weekend, then they should hand him a grid drop at the start of the race.
            #5 Don’t agree with the penalty type either. His words are emotions, not actions. Actions should be penalised with added time or grid position, but emotions/words should be penalised with a fine or a point on their license and/or a reprimand at least. It’s just disrespectful towards Charlie Whiting and the rest of the stewards.

            Now the “Verstappen move” has been settled last race and Vettel is the first to be penalised for that, I feel the next thing the drivers will discuss (for next year at least) is the inconsistency in penalties. So for all the things we disagree on, that’s fine, but I’m afraid that’s exactly the issue with the race stewards. They should clearly define certain penalties. One last example: in general there should be a rule where either the attacker or the defender is always given the advantage in case of doubt.

            1. @addvariety First of all, if FIA wants to use VES to shorten Verstappen that’s on them, I choose VER. We no longer have Vergne in F1 and reserving 3 letters for each driver will eventually get us into trouble.

              Your 4-5 cars is very optimistic. If Ham did try to take the corner, he would have run wide, probably where Rosberg with Max were, effectively blocking them both. It looked like a massive mistake because of the speed he had when he left the track. It was this fast because he committed to cutting the corner early, not because he braked very late. Max cut the corner the same way but Vettel, who took the normal line, was right on him after t3 indicating cutting that corner is not as beneficial as you say.

              on 2, Ver has the inside line, racing line, Rosberg did not want to give up so went off, at the point he should have braked to return to the track, not cut the corner completely, especially when he was not only outside of the track but also behind.

            2. @ivan-vinitskyy I was just joking about VER/VES, hence the ;-).

              But regarding cutting the corner at the start, that’s not true. As you can see in the video below which shows the complete start from a drone’s view, Hamilton goes way beyond the white line that indicates the racing line. So if he would’ve chosen to regain before turn 2 (to avoid cutting the corner) he would’ve had to significantly slow down and come back at least behind ROS and VER/VES:
              http://www.ziggosporttotaal.nl/fragment/887-http-sport1-cache-cdp-triple-it-nl-spoton-20161030_5816452c147f9f08a80064c5-mp4.html

              You’re saying that because Vettel was right on Verstappen’s tail, that cutting the corner isn’t significantly faster, but that argument is not true. If Verstappen had not cut the corner, he would be at least 2 seconds behind Vettel after turn 2. It’s not just about cutting the corner vs. regular racing line (which Vettel indeed did), but it’s about losing even more time if you outbreak yourself and have to get back to the corner you were taking. You need to slow down a lot, come from a completely different angle, so your entry and exit are completely compromised as well.

              You can see in Quali (not specifically Mexico) that when a driver goes off track just a tiny bit at the end of the corner, by which I mean he just goes slightly beyond the white racing line, his time is already .2 to .3 seconds slower. This is a sum of all things: braking too late, locking your tire(s), having to slow down more than normal racing speed, retaking your position on the track in a compromised angle and exiting the next corner slower than normal. This all adds up to a couple of seconds. I don’t have the telemetry as the teams do of course, but there if I need to put every situation in order of fast to slow, it would be:
              1. Taking turns 1 and 2 normally
              2. Braking too late for turns 1 and 2 and then cutting turn 2
              3. Braking too late for turns 1 and 2 and then regaining the track before turn 2 again

      4. He didnt say anything about Rosberg….pay attention.

        1. He talked about paying the price for going off the track and cutting a corner. Rosberg did that.

    2. Yes you are right Dan should of been your win..rules need to be enforced and even playing field for all Drivers!!!

    3. If your team mate had give the position you wouldn’t tried to pass VET.

        1. great point, if Maxipad would of given the place to Vettel , Riccardo would of been fighting with Verstappen for 4th place…not with Vettel…

          one is the action of another…Red Bull knows that behavior by Max when it comes to making moves and following the rules , the boy is not following the script..he does and says what he wants…

    4. Hamilton won by 8 seconds so a 5 second penalty would make no difference.

      1. Had Rosberg known about a possible penalty he might have pushed to stay within the 5 second barrier.

        1. Ah you super expert with your endless wisdom all the time… Ham would be watching housewives series, if he was given the penalty… or just set aside and wait for ros to pull along side…

      2. Yes David of course you are right it was the Adrenelene talking sorry😤😤😤

      3. 5 seconds at his pit stop would have made.

      4. If Hamilton would not have gained that advantage, someone could have attacked him after the next straight, when there was no VC yet. If Hamilton got a 5 sec penalty in the race, he would have dropped at least behind Rosberg.

      5. Problem is Rosberg would have been pushing to within 5 seconds. Now he was just cruising to become seconds and take his points.

        It’s clearly using 2 standards.
        F1 is digging it’s own grave like this. Hamilton deserved 5 seconds for sure if Max did. Rosberg would have worked hard to close in on him (now he didn’t).
        Alonso bumped Massa(?) off track without being penalized last race, so when Max bumped off Rosberg there was no fault and Rosberg should have had a 5 second penalty for gaining advantage.

        Now we have “the Max rule” and “Mercedes standard”.

        btw. Vettel broke the Max rule on Ricciardo.

      6. spafrancorchamps
        30th October 2016, 22:04

        That’s not the point. The point is, he did the same thing, but got treated differently. He also would have had to take the penalty during his pitstop, keeping the 1st position would have been a close one in that case.

        I agree with Verstappen’s penalty, and I agree with Ricciardo that Vettel (moving under braking) and Hamilton (leaving the track and gaining an advantage) should have been penalised too! Rosberg had no other option, so it’s a different story.

      7. That’s not the point. Hamilton and Rosberg should’ve gotten the penalty, regardless of whether it would result in a different outcome. Or would you like to see them handing different penalties to different drivers, just so they will lose places and points?

        1. Yeah, you mean like Ham got one famouse penalty in spa some time ago which didnt exist in the rules books until after the race and penalty given? Like 30 secs?

          With ros and ver coming together due to ver’s dive bomb and lockup, unlikely either one would have overtaken ham…

        2. Come on, Hamilton got some time advantage but not positional advantage. Docking him a position would be excessive and unjustified. Rosberg was shoved off track by Verstappen. Nice barging in fact, but Rosberg kept his head and was entitled to get back in front after going off track given how he’d been made to leave it. Both sound calls by the stewards.

    5. “if you’re going to defend, you commit early and that’s it, you make your bed.”

      He would love that. Easy passes like Button and Hulkenberg not even bothering. Sadly for him not everyone is of the mindset of “Ooh, might get scruffy, better move out the way and wave him through.”

      1. Read the rule book. Other drivers have been penalised for this.

    6. Doesn’t Charlie traditionally allow more leeway on the first lap of the race?

      1. yeah, but usually a little more in the middle of the pack in the sprit of “avoiding an accident.” I think he figured, if no team complanes i won’t investigate. And i don’t think any team complained.

      2. Yes, but I don’t know if that applies to corner cutting as well. There is some for making contact though.

      3. turn 1 is optional unless you are a cry-baby

    7. pit stop, that would’ve put Rosberg out ahead, and we might’ve actually seen some wheel to wheel action between them

    8. Renato Oliveira
      30th October 2016, 21:57

      Its absolutely incredible the way sky f1 covers Hamiltons actions.
      They never put him on corners like they do on other drivers.
      Hi fives for Dani Ric to give a shout out to the absurd move of hamilton not even being investigated.

        1. Renato Oliveira
          30th October 2016, 23:17

          SKY F1 should be ashamed by the way you guys protect Hamilton. Over and over again.
          In every single interview you guys are wary of Hamilton trying to ask nice questions. Like if you are afraid he will get offended. Meanwhile every driver is pushed to a corner. And when someone questions Hamiltons behaviour you guys avoid the subject. In turn one the debate about Rosberg move took nearly 3 laps. No dueling about Hamilton clearly not bothering to try to return to the track. Vettel was pretty stupid today in a lot of actions, but replying “it’s not of your business” was the perfect response to a channel that plays the tunes only for one driver.

          1. Life’s tough, good to see you taking the big issues in your stride though.

    9. Two jobs I would never take no matter what, POTUS and F1 race steward.

      Can’t blame Ricciardo for what he’s saying here, but the incidents do have enough differentiation to not be totally black and white. With this much grey area in all the incidents involving Hamilton, Verstappen, Rosberg, Vettel, Ricciardo no matter what decisions are are made not everyone will be pleased or agree.

      Nothing like great layers of controversy to spice up a somewhat lackluster race!

    10. Yep. Seb shouldn’t have opened the door.

    11. I totally understand his frustration with Vettel, especially after it supposedly being clarified that moving to the inside in the braking zone would be penalised. However Vettel shouldn’t even have been in that situation, he should never have came under attack – from RIC at least. You could tell via his defense that Vettel in that state of mind would rather have taken Ricciardo out than let him pass so it was never on to begin with.

      His race was lost on the safety car coming out following the virtual ruining his early stop (funnily enough trying to take advantage of a rule he complained about last race).

      The inconsistency between Max’s penalty and Lewis’s lack of is a separate issue entirely and I really hope the drivers take a united front on this issue. The track limits rules are pointless if they’re not applied consistently.

    12. I guess most folk have forgotten that Rosberg did the same at Canada 14……

      Guess what???? No penalty given…..

      1. Quite similar, but still so much different. HAM skipped half of 2 corners (exit of corner 1 and entry of corner 3) and an entire corner (2) altogether, basically miming going into corner 1 and then landing right at the exit of corner 3, accelerating fully towards corner 4. ROS in Canada 2014 skipped like half of corner (the exit of last corner) and landed directly on the straight. Also, the last corner in Canada is actually a chicane, the speed there is quite high, so not much to lose if you’re behind.

        1. You don’t like Hamilton and this clouds your judgement @corrado-dub.
          Rosberg cut the chicane int 2014 and puts Hamilton out of DRS range. It was clearly gaining an advantage. You are merely discussing the amount of advantage gained: not so much for Rosberg according to you. So it’s fine to break the rules as long as you don’t gain too much out of it.
          Sorry, but that’s not faire mate. Both situation are similar and if you penalize one, then you got to penalize both (in those cases the stewards penalized none).

    13. Anyone got a ‘everyone gets an X’ meme handy?

    14. 5 seconds to Hamilton’s time still leaves him with a win. He more or less really wasnt under pressure as the car immediately behind him ran wide also.

      And all this penalty nonesense is rubbish.

      1. Also typically you get a warning for cutting corners first before getting a penalty. That presidence was made years ago.

    15. Hamilton wasnt defending from a passing move. So there was no one to give the a place back to as Rosberg went off the track and cut the corner too
      He then backed off, he did not get a lasting advantage. Rosburg was right back behind him before the virtual safety car. Thus no penalty.
      If Rosburg had been in a passing position then sure he would have had to let him past.

      1. He failed to lose time and places from a massive mistake – the reason Rosberg wasn’t in a position to pass him was because he braked earlier, in time to take the corner. And the reason he didn’t make it himself was because Verstappen punted him off.

    16. I think Hamilton gained an advantage (and a big one!) by cutting the corner (which he did all by himself, unlike Rosberg who was barged by Verstappen) and that it should at least have been investigated. And for people who are saying that a 5s penalty would have made no difference because Hamilton finished 8s ahead, Rosberg was within 5s of the lead most of the race! That would have made the GP a lot more interesting (and fair)!

      1. I doubt i would have made any difference. He would have pushed harder. Hamilton backed off alot in the second part of the race. At one point he was 8 seconds infront of rosburg.
        There was no way rosburg was going to catch him 5 sec penalty or not.

      2. I don’t think it would have made a difference because Rosberg was struggling more with his car than Hamilton this weekend. He never found a comfortable set-up so if they both pushed then is very likely that the difference Hamilton could gain would be even more than 8 seconds.
        Actually most likely Rosberg was pushing for most of the race anyway because he was chased by Red Bull all the time except the last few laps. Vestappen even tried a passing move on him.

    17. I think the safety car was the primary reason Hamilton didn’t get a penalty for his off-track excursion while Verstappen got because SC automatically nullifies any potential lasting advantage that could be gained by leaving the track.

    18. All drivers know or should know that ruling is more forgiving in the first lap or so, which is why You can’t decide in the aftermath of this race that HAM and ROS should be penalized for the start.
      1. Ham at start – no penalty
      2. Ros at start – no penalty
      3. VES vs VET – penalty (5 sec)
      4. VET vs RIC – no Penalty – VET thought that the two RBR pilots were working together against him and he believed that VES had been ordered to hand him the place. For this reason VET defended also outside the rules and it seem as if RIC realized this and then disengaged in order to keep safe.
      5. VET vs microphone – freedom of speech must prevail – he was agitated for a reason, come on.
      But for future races I would like to see the rules changed so that going of track, as in making a drivers error, like HAM was at turn one, should cost one position, not a time penalty. In the old days, with gravel traps, an excursion of the track like HAM did, would have ended his race and I would like the rules to be enforced in such a way that the drivers stop taking the track limits so lightly, but without ending their race or compromising safety.

    19. Next year maybe they should put gravel instead of grass at turns 1 thru 3. Let the track punish the cheaters.

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