Kvyat and Vandoorne given two penalty points

2017 Austrian Grand Prix

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Daniil Kvyat and Stoffel Vandoorne have each been given two penalty points for incidents during the Austrian Grand Prix.

2017 Austrian Grand Prix in pictures
Both drivers also had to serve drive-through penalties during the race.

Kvyat’s penalty was for causing the first-lap collision which eliminated Fernando Alonso and Max Verstappen from the race. The stewards ruled he “braked late” for the first corner, triggering the crash.

Vandoorne was penalised for failing to observe blue flags “for at least two laps”. Kimi Raikkonen was heard complaining about the McLaren on the radio during the race.

Kvyat now has seven penalty points on his licence. That means he will have the most of any driver at the next race along with his team mate Carlos Sainz Jnr and Sebastian Vettel, who will both be on seven. Vandoorne has accrued a total of five penalty points over the last 12 months.

This article will be updated.

2017 Austrian Grand Prix

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    Keith Collantine
    Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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    51 comments on “Kvyat and Vandoorne given two penalty points”

    1. Kvyat’s start was really clumsy.

      1. He’s being really clumsy in general. Has been complaining about having an unreliable car, then proceeds to end his shot at points on lap 1 next time out.

      2. Last year situations and should got 4 points as he took out 2 cars. Blue flag penaulty should be only one!!

      3. It’s bad enough that he took Alonso out, but he also collected Verstappen from the sister team. If Kvyat’s not out of the Red Bull ‘family’ by the end of this year, I don’t know what he’ll need to do to get sacked.

      4. To be honest Verstappen’s race was already over before it started. His clutch was faulty and while the accident aggravated it, Max would not have finished the race anyway.
        Max already knew it was a mission impossible on the warmup lap.

    2. It’s ridiculous that Stoffel Vandoorne gets a penalty and Sergio Pérez doesn’t

      1. Rules? Who needs them, we have opinions, right?

      2. @Hyoko +1

      3. I assume it’s for the number of flags he passed, rather than how much he held up the driver behind.

        1. @george That’s a fact. However, it was also discussed that the drive-through penalty was too harsh (on Sky) and a 5 or 10 second time penalty would’ve been enough. It’s not as if he’s had a history of ignoring blue flags. Even so, there are worse things to do.

          Ignoring blue flags isn’t dangerous at all, it just make the one behind lose time, nothing more nothing less. That’s why both penalties (drive-through and 2 penalty points) are so out of order. Especially considering Vettel’s actions last race. If Vandoorne gets this punishment, Vettel would’ve needed a race ban at the very least.

        2. Penalties are given out once a driver has been blue-flagged for a driver and still has that driver behind them 5 blue flags later. Note that the blue flag has to be waved for that post to count towards the total – in China 2008, Giancarlo Fisichella prevented Kimi Raikkonen from lapping him for nearly a whole lap without getting a penalty because only 3 marshals’ posts waved a blue flag at him during that time.

          Flag posts are generally, but by no means necessarily, 200 metres apart. In some cases “supplementary” flag posts are put in that wave the same flag as a nearby post (usually due to potential visibility issues), but the supplementary flags don’t count towards the 5 a driver is allowed.

          It also doesn’t count as a penalty if the 6th blue flag is for a different car to the 1st one (for example, where there are multiple cars in a row attempting to lap someone, it’s only a penalty if the same car is held up for 6 blue flags.

          Finally, it doesn’t count if the blue flags are waved in blatant error (otherwise Enrique Bernoldi’s defence of David Coulthard would have lasted 6 laps instead of 42, as one post mistook the race for position as the McLaren driver coming to lap the Arrows…)

          My guess is that the unusually severe penalty was due to an unusual amount of blocking in a short time – either Vandoorne managed to hold the same car back for 2 laps, or there were 2 separate laps where Vandoorne held a car for too long. 2 x 10 seconds would equal a drive-through penalty in the FIA’s book (since an untaken drive-through is worth 20 seconds of penalty when awarded post-race), so Vandoorne’s situation seems reasonable to me given the write-up accompanying it.

          Time loss is not considered at all. If you block someone for 4 flags and they lose 10 seconds, the stewards will not care. If you have 6 blue flags waved at you and the driver behind you loses no time, it’s still (technically) a penalty.

          1. Aaand I’ve now seen that the boundary is 3 flags, not 5. Please amend all relevant references in your own minds (except for the China 2008 one as I believe it was 5 flags back then and I definitely saw 3 on the “highlights” reel of that boring race).

      4. I know… Perez literally defended position from Bottas as if they were racing and cost him a couple of seconds which could’ve changed the outcome of the race, if he then didn’t cost Vettel half a second as well. And he gets nothing. And Vandoorne gets a penalty for costing Raikkonen just a couple of tenths, but because Kimi complained he gets a penalty while Bottas doesn’t complain so Perez doesn’t.
        Additionally, Kvyat ruined the races of 2 drivers and got the exact same penalty as Vandoorne did. Absolutely ridiculous stewarding.

        1. @hugh11

          Vandoorne gets a penalty for costing Raikkonen just a couple of tenths

          ……it was for 2 laps wasn’t it? not just a couple of tenths.

    3. Did Stewards got any Memo to give penalty points over the year?
      Why Vandoorne got 2 points for the offence he served a DT and thats more than what he did which should have been a 10 sec + to his race time as a maximum Penalty.

      1. GtisBetter (@)
        9th July 2017, 15:34

        penlaties always have a corresponding penalty points. So if you get a penalty for a collision/ speeding in the pit lane, speeding under yellow etc, you also get points on your license.

        1. Sorry but i dont think this is worth of DT let alone Penalty points. If they had to give penalty points because he made an offence then its 100% better to Scrap that rule of serve penalty and get penalty points.

          1. @passingisoverrated Exactly what miki says. Vettel was handed a 10 second stop-go penalty in Baku for his extremely dangerous and unnecessary manoeuvre and handed 3 license points. All Vandoorne did was making the one behind him lose time, nothing even remotely dangerous. Sure, it’s a rule he needs to adhere to, but it’s not like he has a history of ignoring blue flags or anything. A 5 or 10 second penalty with 1 penalty point would be the maximum. Ignoring blue flags is possibly the lightest error you can make when you consider all the rules.

            1. “extremely dangerous”??? LOL.

          2. From what I can see, Vandoorne got a drive-through due to ignoring blue flags for 2 laps. Stewards appear to have treated this as two infractions, each normally worth 10 seconds. (You could argue that sometimes a blue flag only gets 5 seconds, but that’s another argument altogether). The time tariff for a drive-through is set at 20 seconds, regardless of track configuration. So two 10-second penalties is worth a drive-through (however harsh that is in some applications).

    4. Ignoring blue flags = 2 points + DT
      Ramming into someone under the safety car, and then proceeding to ram them again intentionally = 3 points + DT + 10s

      Call me crazy, but I can’t help thinking that Vettel’s offence was much much worse than just 2 vs 3 points…

      Also, ramming people on the start is apparently no worse than letting leaders by 2 corners two late when under blue flags.

      1. The ruling says two laps, not corners.

        1. @evered7 Which rules are you following?

          Pass three blue flags without complying and the driver risks being penalised.

          Source: https://www.formula1.com/en/championship/inside-f1/understanding-f1-racing/Flags.html

          1. @addvariety I was only pointing out what was written in the article.

            1. 2 laps was the length of time Vandoorne was found to have ignored blue flags. This is a lot longer than the 3 marshal posts permitted and explains what is effectively a double penalty.

      2. Oh really, now Vettel’s at fault for Hamilton slowing down through corner exit? Jeeez, does this bias ever end? The rules clearly say the leader should drive in a predictable manner during SC restarts.

        1. That’s a separate regulation.

    5. Vettel’s points must have expired I suppose? He is not a race ban away if he gets more points I hope? Unless he is bumping into people again?

      1. @evered7 Whenever you get penalty points, these stand for exactly a year. So he’s lost the 2 points he got in the British GP last year. So yes, purely based on the mathematical maximum of 3 he cannot currently get a race ban like that. This becomes a possibility as soon he receives another couple of points in the next few races though.

        1. @addvariety Thank you! One less thing to worry about.

      2. Two of Vettel’s points expire tomorrow. Since there’s no Grand Prix for the next 48 hours, he’s now 5 points away from a race ban. Possible, but he’d have to try pretty hard to obtain it.

    6. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
      9th July 2017, 15:35

      While I think these 2 penalty points were certainly deserved for Kvyat, I think the 2 he got in Canada were ridiculously harsh. In the same was as Vandoorne’s are today. Kvyat has had 2 or 3 decent races, 4 unlucky retirements and one very poor race. His team mate has been very up and down. Great on a couple of occasions but had 2 races that I’d say his collision were both worse than Kvyat’s this race. Both Sainz and Kvyat have made misteks this year, but until this moment, it has been Sainz who has made much more costly ones. I don’t think Sainz is showing he is quite good enough to move to Red Bull compared to Ricciardo and Verstappen. I think Kvyat is doing enough to deserve a drive next year. And from what Horner said on Sky, it sounded like he probably will continue with Toro Rosso. He cost himself a chance for points this time, but has had 4 retirements that were not his fault and another unlucky race in Australia. Horner said he didn’t think his performance had been decent this year. I agree. He’s been pretty even with Sainz in qualifying and hasn’t made any big mistakes until now. When he gets more time to prove himself and had less reliability problems, I think he will at least be reasonable enough to stay with the team, or at leased remain in F1. Sainz is managing to get plenty of points even though he has had messy races and I certainly think this is the best team for him at the moment. And if this line up continues, It will make them a very experienced line up next year which I think will be good. The team boss does quite often keep saying that he thinks both of them are doing a good enough job.

      1. Aditya (@adityafakhri)
        9th July 2017, 15:50

        I think Gasly will replace Kvyat next year. Performance wise, Sainz is better but he’s equally unreliable as Kvyat in terms lately.

        1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
          10th July 2017, 21:39

          Well, as it happens, from what I said horner said, It looks very likely that Kvyat will remain next year, as well as Sainz. I did think that their team boss was happy enough with both of them even though they both have made mistakes. Even though Kvyat Vertually ended Verstappen’s race, he did seem to defend Kvyat by saying this: “He misjudged his braking point and Max was an unfortunate victim of that. But I don’t think anybody is going to come down too hard on him.”

          I don’t think that crash was as bad as it looked, certainly not as bad as Sainz’s 2 collisions this year. Here is the page I have just found out it is very likely he will continue:

    7. Kyvat’s points are totally deserve. Bowling start if there was ever one.

      I have no issue with Vandoorne’s, I just don’t quite understand why Perez doesn’t have points as well.

    8. I agree Kyvat deserves his 2 points….his driving was clumsy and dangerous wiping out 2 cars and lucky not to take out more……but then to give Van D the same punishment….which is a much minor offence….
      That is unbelievable……these punishments need a drastic overhaul

    9. Neil (@neilosjames)
      9th July 2017, 17:03

      Can’t really comment on Vandoorne without seeing what he did… the only thing we were shown of him doing was moving aside for Raikkonen fairly quickly… didn’t see anything other than that. But it must have been quite something to warrant the same penalty, and the same number of points, as kamizake Kvyat.

      Not sure why Perez got away with defending his position against Bottas, though. Unless the blue flags were malfunctioning and he wasn’t being shown any.

      1. As far as I could see, he was dodging just before the penalty limit came up each time – driving to the letter rather than the spirit of the rules.

    10. Michael Brown (@)
      9th July 2017, 17:14

      If Vandoorne got that for ignoring blue flags then Perez deserves a race ban for what he did.

      1. Agreed Kvyat is a horrible driver and needs to be out of F1. He is like the new Maldonado.

        1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
          9th July 2017, 21:31

          If you take into consideration that this is Kvyat’s only big clumsy crash this year and then compare him to his team mate, you can’t say he’s that bad. Sainz has had 2 much worse crashes. They both resulted in him retiring as well as another driver both times. And him taking himself out clearly wasn’t a big enough penalty as they gave him 2 penalty points both times, then on top of that, 2 3 place grid drops too. Considering Kvyat didn’t even take himself out of the race and the fact he only got a 30 second penalty (which isn’t the worst you can get) as well as 2 penalty points, then I think it was pretty clear it wasn’t as bad as his team mates 2 clashes. Both these drivers have both been inconsistent this year. Kvyat has been much more unlucky with 4 retirements nothing to do with him, but it has been Sainz that has had a couple of very good drives. Although Kvyat looked much better in Australia. They are even pretty even in qualifying. I personally think Sainz is clearly better based on last year, but he’s been a fair bit worse this year. Still better than Kvyat, but not by that much really from what we have seen. I think they both are good enough to remain with the team.

    11. I feel like Kvyat causing a first corner collision that took out two cars was a little more serious than Vandoorne’s blue flag infringement.

    12. Beyond me why is Kvyat still in F1. I guess RBR are really out of talent.

      1. Arnoud van Houwelingen
        9th July 2017, 20:13

        Yes RBR have not great talents in their junior program .. maybe they should get Kubica (he doesn’t have any contract yet) the biggest talents are with Ferrari (Leclerc) and McLaren (Lando Norris)

    13. The Torpedo Strikes Back.

    14. On the McLaren site you could see the team ordering him to try and stay ahead of Kimi. Apparently he took that to heart :)

    15. Who knew a McLaren was even capable of ignoring blue flags for two laps? Perhaps that Honda spec 3 engine is not so bad ;-)

    16. No idea why ignoring blue flags carries the same punishment as causing a pile-up at the start and wiping out two other cars!

    17. The only thing saving Kvyat’s skin for being sacked for good (and did he ever do a thing worth of note on his stint at F1? i can’t remember anything..) is that the french dude who is on the line of sucession is doing a really poor job on Super Formula.

      Other than that, Kvyat is only known to be dating a former champion’s daughter.
      The guy is behind Wehrlein on the standings! No defense to that.

      1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
        10th July 2017, 22:56

        There is a defense to that. Wehrlein only got points because of loads of retirements. He wouldn’t have got 8th in Spain if Bottas, Verstappen and Kimi hadn’t retired. He also crashed into his team mate in Baku. This resulted in damage on Ericsson. Ericsson most certainly deserved that point more as he got promised the position back if Wehrlien didn’t pull away (which he didn’t). Yet again, it was retirements that brought the Saubers into the race points. And Kvyat has had awful luck this year. He was much better than Sainz in Australia and will have finished ahead and got more points if he didn’t have to pit on lap 50 with tyre issues. After he pitted, he even set the fastest lap. It was soon broken by the leaders but it still was impressive. Even after all this, he barely finished behind Sainz. In China, he qualified ahead of Sainz, but had to retie. In Monaco, he will have certainly been 9th or 8th if it wasn’t for Perez hitting him. In Canada, if he didn’t have the problems at the start, he will have very likely managed a point or two at leased. In Baku, he looked a fair bit Better than Sainz. Out qualified him and although Kvyat went wide at the 1st corner, it was team mate who had a massive over reaction at the start which he admitted to afterwards. If Kvyat didn’t have to retire yet again here, I think he’ll have comfortably have beaten Sainz and got some very valuable points in Baku. Kvyat admittedly did poor in qualifying here in Austria as well as a bad start. But horner didn’t seem to think it was anything that bad. And by the look of it, Toro Rosso are very likely to be keeping this same driver line up for next year which I think is the right decision. It will make the driver line up of this team the most experienced it has every been.

        While I admit Sainz certainly is better, I don’t think there has been a huge difference between them this season. If Sainz had had Kvyat’s level of retirements that were not his fault, he could possibly retired in 6 races due to crashing out himself twice. Sainz has been better overall, but not by as most of us think IMO. The link below describes the reasons why they think Kvyat is good enough to deserve another drive. It’s not confirmed yet, but looking very likely.

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