Max Verstappen, Red Bull, Spa-Francorchamps, 2017

Verstappen denies he ‘gained an advantage’ in disputed Raikkonen pass

2017 United States Grand Prix

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Max Verstappen disagrees with the stewards’ view that he gained a “lasting advantage” in his off-track last-lap pass on Kimi Raikkonen in Austin.

The Red Bull driver said he has not changed his mind about the penalty which cost him a podium finish in Sunday’s race.

Max Verstappen, Red Bull, Circuit of the Americas, 2017
Poll: Did Verstappen deserve a penalty?
“The punishment was not correct because everybody was running off the track in turn 19, eight and nine, even in turn six when you were behind someone you were cutting the inside, a lot of cars were doing it,” he said.

“I think also the fans like it a lot, it was a great move. And then they tell you you are gaining an advantage while overtaking someone.”

“Well, if I was really gaining an advantage I would do it every single lap. Which you are not. So I don’t think it’s gaining an advantage.”

Verstappen said the initial reason he went off-track was “to avoid an accident” with Raikkonen.

“I think at one point he realised I was trying to overtake him and he tried to close the door,” Verstappen explained. “So you have to avoid it a bit.”

“And then of course the Austin track gives a lot of possibility to run on the inside, like you could see the whole weekend.”

Verstappen defended his response to the incident, in which he described one steward as an “idiot”.

“I think it’s quite normal that a get angry,” he said. “Of course I could’ve used a few different words but at the end of the day I think the decision is not correct.”

However Verstappen refused to be drawn on which of the four stewards last weekend he was referring to. “I don’t want to name any names,” he said.

2017 United States Grand Prix

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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  • 141 comments on “Verstappen denies he ‘gained an advantage’ in disputed Raikkonen pass”

    1. Reducing the distance of the track is definitely gaining an advantage.

      Whether other people were gaining the same advantage (or a different advantage on other corners) is another matter. However it would make sense (and be a lot easier for the stewards) for the rules to be applied consistently.

      1. No, a shorter line does not necessarily mean a quicker lap time.

        Look at how Vettel almost “ran into the back of Hamilton” after the pit stop even though Hamilton had a much shorter line.

        1. Sundar Srinivas Harish
          26th October 2017, 23:11

          The difference being Hamilton was on new tires that weren’t “switched on” yet, and Vettel was.

        2. @patrickl

          A shorter line does not necessarily mean a quicker lap time.

          Indeed it does not, that’s why some other drivers were not penalised for running off the track at times. But the issue is that in this particular case Max did gain an advantage.

          Well, if I was really gaining an advantage I would do it every single lap. Which you are not. So I don’t think it’s gaining an advantage.

          That’s some twisted logic.
          You don’t do it every single lap, because you don’t gain advantage by doing it every single lap. That’s precisely why this is not punishable offense. But overtaking is a different beast. If the driver ahead of you is keeping his line and you cut across the corner you obviously do gain an advantage, as this is something you cannot do within the track limits. Your opponent has to drive defensively, as he is anticipating some kind of move, but he’s anticipating a legal move. Cutting across the corner is not something he should be worried about, and when you do it, you benefit from it.
          The move wouldn’t stick otherwise.

          1. This is a great explanation, it is one of the best comments I have seen in some time.Thank you MaroonJack

          2. Did Kimmi hold his line??, i think not!! Because of that, Max tried to avoid contact, he moved more to the right.
            Yes Max cut the corner no agrument about that, but the reason why had also to do with Kimmi who was caught by suprise. Why so many people also disagree with the punishment of Max; if you watching a race, packed with action and a driver like Max, who shows his racecraft through out the race and gives every race fan in the world such a fantastic overtake, it’s hard to swallow it was taking away from him. There are rules when you disagree and there is justice. Not Ferrari, Not the race fan, nobody had complaint when the result had stuck. Even Max haters have to agree; F1 finally got a racer again who spice things up, people talking about F1 again, stands in Europe enjoy the rice of tickets sales and F1 Fanatic receive more clicks on there articles with Verstappen.

      2. Here’s the thing. Determining whether Max gained an advantage IN THIS ONE MOVE is admitting bias against him. For the sake of argument, let’s say Kimi cut corners 100 times during the race at different places on track, but never while overtaking someone. At the same time, Max cut one corner while overtaking for podium on the last lap. Who do you punish? Who gained most lasting advantage? How do you determine that? Should you add up all 100 corners Kimi cut, get the average time for driving without cut corners, see what advantage was there if any, and then compare it to the advantage Max got in his overtake?

        Ignoring all other infringements and singling out one overtake is simply wrong. It emphasizes immediate reaction against objectivity in a sport where we count thousands of a second. The fact that Charlie Whiting supports this view is worrisome. We simply don’t know how much advantage each driver got during the race while cutting corners, to properly determine whether Max got the most lasting and worst advantage of all to deserve a punishment. Quite simply it was the most visible in terms of impact – that’s the ONLY reason he got punished.

        You either punish all, not punish anyone, or publish open data showing everyone how the severity of an incident is objectively calculated, to determine that it is the single offense warranting a punishment.

        1. Bravo! Very well said.

        2. Let’s say Kimi cut corners 100 times during the race at different places on track, but never while overtaking someone. At the same time, Max cut one corner while overtaking for podium on the last lap. Who do you punish?

          Max.

          And here is why. Paraphrasing his own words: “If you’re really gaining an advantage you would do it every single lap. Which you are not”. So by Max’s own admission in this hypothetical situation Kimi did not gain an advantage. Staying on track or leaving it: no difference, no penalty.

          Is there a difference during overtaking? Hell yes. If you can’t make the move stick on the track and you can make it stick by cutting corner there is a difference, there is a benefit, hence: penalty.

          It’s really very simple.

          1. Very simple indeed. The only thing twisted is your interpretation.
            Max would have made the pass without cutting the corner.
            He only cut it to avoid Kimi, which was not necessary after all as Kimi held back when he saw Max was already aside.
            He would have made the pass anyway.

            1. Max would have made the pass without cutting the corner.

              Then he should have done that perhaps.

        3. @zimkazimka By far the best view of this whole issue. I agree 100%.

        4. Dominique Hayon
          27th October 2017, 11:56

          I think Max also cut corners

        5. From the F4 timing sheet at COTA:

          * PENALTIES
          Cars 7, 07 & 61 – Fastest lap time invalidated – Exceeding Track Limits
          Cars 5 & 8 – Fastest 2 lap times invalidated – Exceeding Track Limits
          Car 40 – Fastest 3 lap times invalidated – Exceeding Track Limits
          Car 9 – Fastest 4 lap times invalidated – Exceeding Track Limits

          Corner cutting was penalised the moment an advantage was gained. The FIA has the means (timing system) to quickly establish if a cut corner gained an advantage. Since no laps in F1 were invalidated, you can conclude there was no time advantage in the corner cuts. So all the other infringements were accounted for and Verstappen was not singled out.

    2. Well,by insisting that he didnt gain an advantage,he ruins the great race he did in COTA…The whole incident was pretty easy to judge,he cut the inside of corner 17 & overtook Raikkonen.Most drivers were track extending,but no other driver overtook someone by corner cutting so i dont know what he wants to achieve.The way Verstappen handles situations is a bit strange & this might be an issue if & when he fights for the WDC…

      1. How he handles situations is exactly how Red Bull does it, by never accepting that they were wrong, remember Australia 2014?

      2. What he meant is that it isn’t the fastests way to take that specific corner. Everyone stayed away from that apex taking that corner! The shortest route is not always the fastest…

        1. No but it’s the only way to get past KR’s Ferrari on that corner at that time and that’s the advantage he gained.

          He knows it and has known it since he first sat in a kart. Cutting a corner particularly to get past someone in your way is an advantage. Full stop.

          For goodness sake, you run a great race, you are now looking like a spoilt entitled insulting brat.

          This is not the boys first rodeo – grow up.

          Others have lost entire races and nearly championships for infringing rules that did not even exist until months later without uttering a single word of this ilk.

          1. You seem to forget he did not cut the corner on purpose. He did it to avoid contact as the onboard supports. He was in a passing manouvre and had no other options. He did not cut the corner to pass Kimi, he did it to avoid contact.

            1. Michael Brown (@)
              27th October 2017, 1:02

              He did it to avoid Raikkonen, and then used that avoiding action to overtake Raikkonen.

            2. The move that Kimi made is called “defending a position”, it’s making it slightly more difficult for the following driver to overtake. Because they are racing, you know. Max had two options: overtake Kimi on track or yield. A racing prodigy like the Magic Flying Dutchman, a golden boy, a World Champion in waiting shouldn’t have problem with that.

              If he coulda-woulda overtake on track, then he shoulda.

              But he didn’t and we don’t play that game.

              Overtaking by cutting corners is not allowed. Period. How can anyone call himself a racing fan and justify it? If you can make the move stick, make it stick. If you leave the track, you give the position back or suffer a penalty. It’s a clear-cut case.

          2. The point is that Kimi moved in -changed his line I mean – while Max was already beside him.
            Without that Max would not have clipped the corner.
            The rules specifically allow for avoiding dangerous situations.

        2. Maybe on a clear run it wouldn’t have been the fastest way, but it guaranteed track position for him immediately that he possibly couldn’t have gained over Raikkonen later. Which was an advantage. That’s why it’s a clear-cut penalty.

          1. He had the speed to make it past Kimi anyway, also – even better – on tarmac.

        3. Who care if it’s the fastest way as long as you grain a position?
          Point are given based on position the last time i checked.

      3. On the contrary. Winners don’t take prisoners. It is a testimony to his drive to win, which will lead to.. well Wins.. All greats have been disputed and hated. I would say he is well on schedule

    3. I pass like that in video games all the time, sooooo…. yeah. No real point here. I just wanted to be included. :)

      1. He has been playing too much f1 2017 on standard corner cutting.

        1. You’re kidding! Surely it’s Dick Dastardly and Whacky Racers.

        2. @krichelle That would be illegal on F1 2017.

      2. Lol. Australia, Russia, Canada, Silverstone, Monza, COTA, Mexico, Abu Dhabi. All tracks, you can easily corner cut..

    4. He completed the corner ahead of Raikkonen. Clearly an advantage.

      1. Yep, a better driver than Kimi Clearly an advantage.

    5. Enough already Junior your beginning to sound like 🤡Herman Marco🤡

    6. Max clearly has been promoted to the big boys league way to quick. He still hasn’t learned that there are rules, rules that have been there since the beginning of racing. Like racing happens between the white lines.

      1. He is much better than most “big boys”

        1. In not getting to the finishing line yeah.
          He is a good race driver, but still has much to learn. And needs to start to prove him self to before he gets rated at the level of the Big Boys.

          1. Really? I feel those big boys have been given a few masterclasses lately. He is not in their league, you are right about that

      2. To soon?! Judging on the way he drives we could have been enjoying him 2 years earlier

    7. “I think at one point he realised I was trying to overtake him and he tried to close the door,” Verstappen explained. “So you have to avoid it a bit.”

      Why you avoided on the right instead on the left?

      “And then of course the Austin track gives a lot of possibility to run on the inside, like you could see the whole weekend.”

      That’s a real problem, not only in Austin, that needs to be addressed imho.

      1. @caci99 Because the car you where avoiding was on the left?

    8. “I also think the fans like it a lot”
      So what! Are he fans now writing the sporting regs?

      Max needs to grow up and shut up.

      1. Rick, this is part of the campaign that Red Bull want to wage – trying to exploit the hard core of Max’s fan base and to use the media to pressurise the FIA into making changes that benefit them.

        1. Red Bull are experts whiners.

      2. Yeah, I did like it. When he got the 5 second penalty!

    9. I know you’d love to have some Ferrari parts in your car but colliding with a Ferrari is not the way to achieve it. As you didn’t hit Kimi and your car was not spread in pieces across the Texan tarmac, I’d say yes you did gain a lasting advantage.

    10. Someone from the FIA need to put this spoiled brat back in his place, asap.

      1. 3 points for gaining an advantage + 3 points for calling out officials
        and jos should be banned of fia events till the end of the year

        1. Then take out Vettel forever while you are at it

          1. +1!
            Had Vettel been given a ban for Mexico 2016 then Max should worry, maybe. But they let it pass.
            Has to be said that Vettel was quick to apologize.

            Baku is another story. He hit Lewis on purpose and was slow to apologize; only days after did he really come clean.
            Then the Singapore sandwich – no apology.
            Then Malaysia, overtaking and turning in on Stroll on the outlap – and blaming him to boot.

            And he is not the only one. This is becoming structural in F1.
            But apparently it is only wrong when Max is involved…

      2. As he has been hyped as the new Senna, the FIA has let him get away with way lots of stuff.
        He probably get’s away with bringing the sport in discredit.

        1. Its Hamilton thats being hyped as the new Senna

          1. More or less, all 3 were great in the wet, all 3 are great in qualifying, all 3 are reckless, though hamilton is being a bit more careful this year, see malaysia, all 3 are hard to overtake, they have many similarities.

            All 3 were hated by a large fanbase for example, I like both hamilton and verstappen but they also have a lot of haters, and senna did especially before dying.

          2. He hyped himself wearing Senna racing gear

    11. Some times Max’s immaturity shows and this is one of them. But I have to say I’m surprised RB don’t have someone who will sit Max down, inform him that he will be asked about the last race and then give him the things he will say in response.

      1. Yeah, lets mute those athletes

      2. You really want more PR puppys ?
        No please!

      3. Pretty sure RB do the opposite.

    12. I don’t think he should get penalized for the “idiot” comments post race simply because they did not penalize Vettel when he said what he did last year. And for the record I am a Ferrari fan. The FIA should hire a permanent set of stewards that do all the races. They can afford it. That would help with consistency. I would also like a zero tolerance on track limits at all times. If a driver crosses the white line when not passing, (driving alone) how is that any less of an advantage than what Max did? I miss the days when going off track caused a big loss whether it was sliding in the grass or getting stuck in a gravel trap.I know safety is very important, but there has to be a better way.

    13. Some people do miss the point here.
      The rule is about leaving the track and gaining an advantage,- not cutting a corner inside or outside, or gaining a position.- All drivers did leave the track last time out in search of laptime, only one was punished. If Max was wrong, everybody was wrong. See Fia rule book 27.3 I understand that this feels unfair.

      1. Gaining a position is kind of advantageous in an F1 race, don’t you think?

        1. So is maintaining your position, which you would have lost otherwise, don’t you think?

    14. It’s depends who’s definition of “advantage” you are using. If it’s Charlie’s warped view, you gained an advantage because you gained a place rather and not just time.

      1. Because points are awarded according to the place you finished, not the time in which you finished.

        1. Absolutely. And if you are 5 seconds behind someone but keep cutting the track to gain a second a time, you’ll catch up. If you then make the overtake legally, you’ve not gained an advantage?

      2. There is a clear advantage between being in third place compared to fourth… ;)

        1. @ferrox-glideh)
          There is a clear advantage yes but he didnt get that advantage by goin off track.

          1. @rethla Um…yes he did? If he hadn’t gone off track, he would have been fourth. Enough said.

          2. @rethla Actually, Max went well off of the track to make the pass, thereby gaining the advantage of a higher position. He should have immediately given back the place and tried to pass again legally. He didn’t do this, so the penalty is justified, and has plenty of precedents.

        2. @ferrox-glideh – There is a clear advantage between 3rd and 4th.
          There is also a clear advantage in cutting 10m off of the track length every lap.
          There is a clear advantage in having not having a flat-spot because you didn’t try and stay on the track.
          There is a clear advantage in knowing you can really throw your car into the corner and that if it goes wrong, you won’t lose any time.
          There is a clear advantage in taking a wider line to protect your tyres.

          I thought Verstappen should have been penalised at the time and once I saw the replay, it was even more clear. 100% a penalty. I saw another 5 or 6 incidents that where drivers left the track and gained a lasting advantage but there wasn’t even an investigation.

          1. I guess the stewards felt that Max gained a “clearly quantifiable” advantage, while they couldn’t measure the advantage as precisely with cars running wide at turn 19, for example. I favor the idea of huge curbs at such areas.

    15. When a stewards receives death threats for doing their job, it is for Max to come out and condemn those actions, he did not. He however maintained that he was right and as such, will fuel the few idiots amongst his fan base to do the same in the future.

      Monaco 2011, Hamilton had to come out and offer an apology for his comments, Max referred to an appointed official as an ‘idiot’ and in the Dutch press as ‘mongol’, but yet shows no sign of remorse.

      That’s exactly the Red Bull way

      1. He’ll learn. Once he starts winning consistently, there will be a higher level of expectation on him. He’s got a fantastic fan base but needs to understand that with great power comes responsibility. Apparently, one of the stewards, Mika Salo, received death threats. That’s not on – both his father and Ver should have roundly condemned that.

    16. Of course, if it was even one lap earlier, Max would have been told to hand the place back and that would be the end of it – as it stands, he did gain a ‘lasting advantage’ because the race finished before he could.

      I remember a couple of years ago the same issue befell a driver who passed another under circumstances that forced him to hand the place back, but the driver he passed had pitted, preventing him doing the move on the track, thus a penalty was awarded.

      1. I remember Hamilton overtaking Raikkonen by cutting a corner, giving the place back, then overtaking again…. and still being penalised!

      2. @optimaximal I remember Alonso overtaking Kubica illegally in the 2010 British Grand Prix. He didn’t give that place back immediately and soon afterwards Kubica retired, so he got a penalty. To make matters worse, he had to take the penalty right after a caution.
        In the 2011 Australian Grand Prix Button passed Massa by cutting a corner. He tried to give back that place, but at the same time Massa let Alonso past, so Button would have to give up two places. Instead, he decided to take a drive-through penalty.

    17. He’s a racing driver….of course he’s right and the other guy’s wrong. But for serious, just make the tracks so that they naturally penalize drivers for going off limits, end of.

      1. @maciek How can that be “end of” when it doesnt chance a thing about the current situation and its likely to never be implented?

        1. @rethla ummmm you know as in end of my point, since back when circuits naturally penalized drivers track limits weren’t an issue, so…

    18. Hello? Doesn’t any successful pass result in gaining an advantage? Gaining an advantage is what racing is all about… from suspension setups, tire choices, etc, etc.
      When it is done illegally or unfairly, as the case with Max’s pass, it is illegal and penalties are imposed.

      1. @mtlracer
        Thats flawed logic. If everything they do on the track is gaining an advantage then everyone who goes of the track should get penalised.

        Would he have made that overtake without going offtrack then clearly he didnt gain any advantage from going offtrack. The rules is just blindly looking at him going offtrack in the context of making an overtake and then defending it by “he gained an advantage” which is just utter nonsense.

    19. Verstappen has always been like that, amazing talent but embarrassing attitude.

      1. Killer instinct indeed. Nothing like the neat and always cirrect Senna, Schumacher, Vettel,…

    20. GtisBetter (@)
      26th October 2017, 20:25

      No point denying. We have it on tape!

    21. Undeniably quick, but it remains to be seen if this guy has the temperament, judgement and maturity to win a contested season-long championship.

      1. He looks like senna, who won 3 championships with that all or nothing attitude, so why not!

        1. Senna racing ethics would not be tolerated today.

          Before someone comes up with how they should, take a little look at some of his races, his utter disrespect for an other competitors life and then consider the ultimate and tragic end to the story.

    22. “I think at one point he realised I was trying to overtake him and he tried to close the door,” Verstappen explained. “So you have to avoid it a bit.”

      I’ll have to remember that next time I encounter a closed door. Just get a sledgehammer out and make myself a new one to use instead.

    23. Well to be fair he didn’t gain a lasting advantage, before the pass he was 4th and after the penalty he was 4th.

    24. I’ll admit, I’m only referring to the headline, but how can he think that?

      He cut the inside of a corner off (therefore shortening the distance covered) and used that to help him complete the overtake. How was that no advantage?? The big deal him and others are making about one of the smallest of penalties is just stupid. Whoever is in charge is the one who can decide weather anything was worthy of a penalty or not. And as Verstappen got one for what he did in that area at that moment in time and others didn’t get any sort of penalty, then Verstappen is in the wrong and he should accept it. Rather than claiming everybody was basically doing the same. If they were doing something wrong according to the stewards, they will have been punished also….

      Stewards have to do their jobs. It will be hard work but they have to make decisions. People should respect this even if they disagree. If Verstappen is rude enough to call this steward an idiot, then shouldn’t Horner have called his driver an idiot for causing his team mates retirement in Hungary? I don’t think so. But that was much more serious problem than receiving a 5 second penalty for breaking the rules. So he should just get over it.

    25. Well, well. A lot of “haters” do jump at the opportunity i see.

      Come on guys.. it’s racing in its purest form wit a racer that’s not always political correct. I like it.
      It’s no PR puppy like some other top drivers and he has a opinion. Good for him ( and us)

    26. He surely does not understand what “gaining an advantage” means.
      he should just shut up this time.

    27. The only driver punished for the entirety of the race week for track limits was Verstappen and as he rightly says, just about every other driver was leaving the circuit (and gaining an advantage) on just about all of the corners… if other drivers had been punished for exceeding track limits (in this race) then fair enough, but, they weren’t.

      Gaining an advantage does not necessarily mean an overtake happened, but, merely holding a gap whilst exceeding track limits allows for an advantage. In this instance, regardless of the outcomes from previous races, the stewards are very much in the wrong as other drivers should also have been punished.

      1. Michael Brown (@)
        27th October 2017, 1:10

        @maddme In the drivers’ briefing, the drivers were told which corners they could run wide on. That doesn’t excuse drivers who left the track to overtake, in my view, however.

    28. I still cannot believe how a person like Charlie Whiting said after the race to justify the decision of the steward, how can a guy like this be the Race Director of F1, the pinnacle of motorsport.

      “Max cut the track so he deserved to be punished , meanwhile all other drivers were exceeding the track limits so technically they were taking the longer route, hence slower” – Charlie Whiting 2017 COTA,

      wow Charlie , your understanding of racing is superb ! Have you considered getting yourself an award ?

      1. I was worried about that one as well. You really express not knowing anything about racing when you say that exceeding track limits on the outside of a corner is slower. Wow, just wow.. Corner exiting speed is clearly not something to taken into account by Charlie. Does he think Vettel would make his first corner pass stick hadn’t he gone of track? What a racing director. Shocking and am sure Liberty is investigating when to get rid of Charlie

      2. @redbullf1 – It’s scary isn’t it that we have people involved very high up in the sport who have such a limited understanding of racing but it does answer a lot of questions about the problems F1 is currently facing.

    29. As fast and arrogant as he is on the track,he seems to be lacking in other departments. This is really disappointing…

      1. Maybe you should read the entire interview.. it’s on formula1.com

        Nothing wrong with a honest person …

        1. I did and nothing about that interview does him any favours at all.

          The petulance he is showing is ruining his reputation which is a shame.

          1. Yeah, I hate winner mentality too. Wish we had more Felipe Massas in the sport

          2. Petulance didn’t do Schumacher and Hamilton any harm.

            1. I see your Schumacher and Hamilton and I’ll raise you a Vettel and Kimi. :D Or Alonso?

              It would be a much shorter list to adjust the question slightly. Can someone please name me a driver who is one of the worlds best from their era who wouldn’t fit on this list?

    30. Verstappen is a good driver and will probably get better, possibly champion. But he is immature and obviously getting very poor advise. He needs to move on stop worrying about what other drivers are doing and just concentrate on developing his skills.

    31. David Rinaldis
      26th October 2017, 23:55

      “avoid an accident”? When’s the last time VER tried to avoid an accident!!

    32. Woof, not a lot of love for Max here.

    33. Michael Brown (@)
      27th October 2017, 1:09

      I’m going to play devil’s advocate here: the reason Verstappen was penalized was because he was the only driver to cut the track to overtake another driver. Every other driver who performed an off-track overtake did so by going wide.

      But then the penalty was given for “leaving the track and gaining an advantage.” Does that mean that Bottas leaving the track to defend his position and re-overtake is not gaining an advantage? How about Vettel running wide in the second last corner when trying to beat Hamilton out of the pits?

      1. @mbr-9 During the race, the Bottas and Ricciardo incident was being looked at, the reason Bottas didn’t get a penalty was that when he rejoined from off the track, he was behind Ricciardo. Had Verstappen cut the corner and not “completed the overtake that way”, and Raikkonen was still ahead, I think it likely Verstappen would have gotten away with it. Fact is, he completed the pass off track, and so 100% deserves the penalty.

        1. RIC didn’t overtake Bottas so how could Bottas be behind RIC?

    34. Everyone knows it was a great overtake, discussing the penalty aint necessary as no matter the outcome it doesnt lead to anything.

      Everyone who knows anything about F1 knows he didnt gain an advantage by cutting the corner but yes cutting the corner and making an overtake leads to an penalty such is the rules by the book.

      How can this be such a big thing?

      1. You are 100% right. The discussion and debate originates from A: the inconsistency of the stewards. B: Verstappen haters finding a stick

    35. Throughout history, the newest thing in F1 in terms of driver skill has always had to deal with the things Max is now. Hamilton had to when he started, I remember Spa 2008 as being a good example, not to mention his relationship between his team mate the year before.
      Senna had to deal with the disapproval of Prost long before they were at McLaren, namely Monaco 1984 as the best example. Established drivers don’t like young guns like Verstappen making them look bad, and Max is the best young driver we have seen in this sport since Lewis Hamilton. Few would disagree that Verstappen has not been shy in ruffling feathers.
      His relationship with both Ferrari drivers has been strained in the past year. With Raikkonen in Barcelona last year and Vettel in Mexico. The events in Singapore sum it up. Any other young gun would have lifted following Vettel’s move, out of fear, intimidation. Max did not lift, he kept his foot in. Reckless? That’s for us to debate. But I wager Vettel will think twice before gambling whilst racing Max.
      In my opinion, Ferrari wanted revenge for Singapore and in a small way achieved it in Austin by getting Max penalized. The reality was that he beat Kimi, he beat him. Seb lost a championship, quite possibly, in Singapore. Max lost a podium, in a career that is only beginning.
      Verstappen will learn the political aspect more as he progresses, he will become as cunning as Hamilton has become. More important, he has the raw speed and talent and he has others worried. If not, they should be!

      1. Max is laying down some good foundations that’s for sure. I still think 2007 was Lewis’ best year in F1. Max still has his to look forward to.

    36. 1) fans loved it

      2) everyone else was going off track too

      Conclusion: I did nothing wrong

      Great logic

    37. Max should get his old man to have a “quiet chat” with the stewards before each race, just to show off the fists of fury that await another decision against him….
      At least it may stop another story about how he was robbed…..

    38. Max cut the corner, he got caught, he got a penalty.
      Why didnt red bull report Bottas when he went off track? Maybe he would have at least been investigated.
      If Max got a speeding ticket, what would his defence in court be? Lots of people speed and you only give me a ticket? Face it max you got busted

      1. If Verstappen got caught for speeding in the pit lane but it could be clearly evidenced that lots of other drivers sped in the pitlane and got away with it, I imagine that probably would be his defence.

        On the road, the police don’t have the resources to catch all speeders so lots get away with it. If F1 can say that it does not have the resources or technology to know if a driver has left the track with all 4 wheels then they can use that excuse but I’d guess that isn’t the case.

    39. Reading through this topic I’ve red ‘immature’ and ‘attitude’ an awefull lot of times…

      One of the very first man who went pubicly against the FIA’s decision was Lauda… from Mercedes for heavens sake.
      Lauda is 68 years old, labelled this the worst decision ever made by the FIA.
      The same Lauda who’s been a critic to Verstappen more than once, but a guy with a race heart, who genuinly felt this was an unjustified call.

      So for all who don’t like Verstappen (which are quite a few) maybe check the reactions of many objective veterans like Lauda, Hill, Webber and so on. It seems to me this was is up for debate at least, Verstappen sticking to his opinion is backed up by many other who know a thing or two about the sport.

      It’s not so much that one incident that’s up for debate as it is the way stewards quite randomly apply the rules, even adding creative explanations to what ‘gaining a lasting advantage’ would mean…. every driver knows a shorter route isn’t always the fastest and apparenthly when defending it is allowed to use half of Texas as long as you don’t cut a corner.

      1. You are right. The common denominator I found throughout this debate is ‘inside corner cutting’. Apparently this is much worse than other track limit violations

    40. I love Verstappen. He’s not the driver I support, but he’s the most exciting thing that has happened to F1 in a long time, and I think he may well have the highest ceiling F1 has ever seen (this is just speculation, naturally).
      But I am getting worried for him. I’m Dutch. Normally I don’t do chauvinism. I enjoyed Oranje getting knocked out of the WC qualis, because they were bad and because I hate the hype that any tournament comes with. I don’t usually support anyone simply because they share my nationality. I didn’t with Albers, Doornbos, or Vd Garde. I don’t necessarily with Verstappen, either. He’s just so good that it is impossible to ignore.
      But. There is a big fat but. He really has a problem. His management, his team, his racing team, everyone in his country, they all support his worse tendencies. He’s a kid. He’s temperamental. He’s actually quite calm and collected most of the time, but he is competitive to an almost unhealthy degree. When that boils over, his father, his management, Horner and the Dutch media all support him to the fullest extent. This creates an almost ‘cult of personality’ situation, that continues in all Dutch media and amongst Dutch fans. He can do no wrong. He will start believing what he reads. The Dutch F1 coverage is even worse than Sky is with Hamilton (if you can imagine that). Calling a stewart ‘a mongol’, whilst more common in Dutch than it is in English, is still offensive. He should be told to stop it. His team won’t do that. His father is a known hot-head (whatever happened with him and his ex-wife, ex-girlfriend, father, whatever). Nobody will tell him to stop anymore.
      If he is to truly reach his almost unimaginable potential, he needs to extricate himself from these surroundings. Horner and Marko need to man up and give him more feedback, more backlash, push back. They’re like besotted with him, unable to believe they got this lucky. If that continues, it will only go bad. And I think somewhere Max knows this. He is already seeking less and less guidance from his father. But the cult remains. And he needs to have a hard look at himself. Or in ten years we’ll all be lamenting what could have been when Esteban Ocon takes his fourth world championship.

      1. +10000 from a fellow Dutchman. I wish there were more reasonable people like you to talk with.

        As difficult it is to believe the hype around him is bigger than his talent which is saying something. I refuse to visit Dutch F1 news sites and forums because of this. You can’t argue anything negative about Max without being put on trial.

        And the Dutch coverage one is so true. Sky are minor complimentary to Hamilton compared to the hero worship that happens here on live TV. It is so one sided that I only switch on a minute before the formation lap and turn it off when the flag drops. Sky is frustrating while the Dutch coverage is downright embarrassing.

        And Max could have a lot of competition in the future. Ocon, Leclerc and Norris are all waiting for that top team drive. Ocon is beating a veteran like Perez (who’s constantly linked to a Ferrari seat) and Leclerc’s and Norris’s records in junior category speak for themselves.

        And remember Alesi. Max is almost the same. Fast, aggressive and quick in the wet but one wrong team choice stalled a promising youngster into a F1 ‘could’ve been’.

      2. Like 4 times WDC Vettel? It will all be good, don’t worry. Surely inside F1 nobody is talking about this anymore. It is just us, tempted by the media.. the drivers, teams, FIA, FOM, they have all moved on already

    41. I dont understand all the fuzz about this decision. For me its crystal clear. Max passed a guy with no wheel on tarmac. Races must be run on tarmac basically.
      No matter if this was the fastest line or anything there is nothing to debate here. If you see his onboards he was in all race full on curbs but not with all 4 wheels but in that special occasion he was. He is racing like playing online games really pushing the car on limit and in my mind this must has to do something with his DNF’s also in comparison to Danny.

      1. Hamilton went of track on his pole lap multiple times.

        1. Track extending is different from corner cutting. The fia allowed track extending, not corner cutting. How hard is that to grasp?

          Anyhow, track extending doesn’t always gain you time because of dust and dirt etc and sometimes it is also a longer route which balances out the extra speed drivers carry through. But corner cutting always gains time

          1. I think people understand the difference between going wide and cutting a corner but I think people struggle to understand why they are treated differently. Both involved a car going off the track – it’s like treating goal kicks and throw-ins differently in football.

            You say “Anyhow, track extending doesn’t always gain you time because of dust and dirt” and you’re right but the problem is that it doesn’t always not gain you time and we don’t see those instances punished.

    42. It’s amazing that something as small as a corner cut has dominated f1 news for the whole week. Probably because it was verstappen, or probably because there was a podium at stake and they came and removed him. Had this been for a lower place or another driver I’m sure it would have fizzled out of the news pretty quickly.

      Didn’t Alonso get a penalty for doing something similar in 2010 at Silverstone? Kubica forced him wide, Alonso cut the corner, didn’t give the place back, kubica pitted, bang, drive through for Alonso. Verstappen, palmer and co should consider themselves lucky lol.

      Verstappen says he did it to avoid contact with raikkonen, which was also my initial impression when I watched the video for the first time, and I still think that could be true. But having illegally overtaken, it was his job to give the place back and having not done that he got penalised.

      I’m all for drivers coming out of their PR shell in interviews and everything and I like it when they give honest responses but calling officials by derogatory names is unacceptable. Vettel was fortunate to escape unscathed last year in Mexico but to his credit he did apologise. I hope max is man enough to do the same, however biased that steward might or might not be

    43. The Max haters have started and that’s a sure sign of a ‘great’ in the making. Same with Hamilton and Vettel. Every derogatory comment possible applied at some time.

    44. Max is the only driver for which they change rules in F1. That say’s enough.

    45. Check Alex zanardi 1996 “the pass” last lap. Now THAT was cutting the corner. Nobody whining about that! Everybody was just going crazy over the move.

    46. Kevin Kelleher
      28th October 2017, 16:31

      SM, good points, but Max did not move to avoid contact with Kimi. Watch the video again and watch Max’s hands. Kimi was taking a normal line for turn 17, approaching on the left, not defensive, and Max simply turned in earlier and set a radius that apexed on 17b. The hand position was near constant for a constant radius pass. No avoidance move, just a near perfect pass. But he left the track and gained a position. Kimi did turn outward when he saw Max at his side, and abandoned his apex. There is a 55 sec multi view video of the event on youtube .

      Max is truly an amazing driver, a joy to watch and great for F1. But the penalty was correct, and most of the other incidents that day that Max cited as similar, were not.

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