Red Bull will use Honda power from the 2019 F1 season, the team has confirmed.
The team will ends its association with Renault, whose engines powered it to four consecutive constructors’ championship titles from 2010 to 2013.
Its new deal with Honda covers the 2019 and 2020 seasons. Team principal Christian Horner described it as “the start of an exciting new phase in Aston Martin Red Bull Racing’s efforts to compete not just for grand prix wins but for what is always our goal – championship titles.”“We have always taken decisions such as this dispassionately and with only one criteria in mind – do we believe the outcome will allow us to compete at a higher level. After careful consideration and evaluation we are certain this partnership with Honda is the right direction for the team.”
Honda returned to Formula 1 with McLaren in 2015 but the pair separated at the end of last season after the Woking-based team grew frustrated at the poor reliability and lack of power from their engines.
Toro Rosso took over McLaren’s engine supply this year and it soon became clear the performance of Honda’s engines had improved. Pierre Gasly scored an impressive fourth place in the Bahrain Grand Prix.
Red Bull has been looking for an alternative to Renault, whose engines it has used since 2007. Relations between Red Bull and Renault have soured since their championship-winning days and reached a nadir in 2015, when Red Bull endured its first win-less campaign in seven years. Horner said Red Bull has been impressed by Honda’s progress with Toro Rosso.
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Honda president Takahiro Hachigo said working with both Red Bull and Toro Rosso will accelerate their development rate.
“Having two teams means we can access twice as much data as previously,” he said. “We believe that working with both Toro Rosso and Red Bull Racing will allow us to get closer to our goal of winning races and championships, building two strong partnerships.
“Discussions proceeded very quickly, thanks to Red Bull’s open and respectful attitude towards Honda, leading to a deal that is fair and equitable for all parties.”
Renault issued a statement acknowledging the end of its relationship with Red Bull.
“Two years after Renault’s return as a works team, we consider this is a natural evolution for both Renault and Red Bull Racing in view of their respective aspirations,” it said.
“In an extremely demanding and competitive environment we are proud of the extraordinary results achieved with Red Bull Racing over the past 12 seasons, in particular, the four Drivers’ and Constructors’ World Championships and 57 wins we have taken together.
“After two seasons, we are fully focused on the strong progression of Renault Sport Formula One Team, while continuing to foster the fresh relationship with McLaren Racing.”
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This article will be updated.
2019 F1 season
- Crying in the Melbourne car park at 2019 grand prix was my career low – Ocon
- McLaren Racing reports reduced £71 million loss in 2019
- Kvyat: Hockenheim podium last year was “my biggest achievement” so far
- How the FIA’s new encrypted fuel flow meter targets Ferrari’s suspected ‘aliasing’ trick
- “He smashed my office door”: 23 must-see moments from ‘Drive to Survive’ season two
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 8:16
Nice! I wonder what will become of Sainz now.
ColdFly (@)
19th June 2018, 8:37
He can replace Ricciardo who will jump ship.
Or even Verstappen. (Very unlikely) the other big teams will use this news to seed some doubt with him if he chose the right long term team. There will be few people who are convinced that Honda will be a better PU in 2019 than Renault.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 8:57
@coldfly – yeah, I had always pencilled in Sainz as Ricciardo’s replacement, now let’s see what Ricciardo himself does.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
19th June 2018, 19:28
@phylyp Sainz seriously? He’s completely outclassed by Hulkenberg. And before that by Verstappen.
Schudha
19th June 2018, 23:09
Exactly, most overrated driver in the grid
gunusugeh (@gunusugeh)
20th June 2018, 4:39
Marc Márquez & Max Verstappen for RB16 ?
Richard
19th June 2018, 9:20
Verstappen re-signed because of the honda deal. For him that manufactuer backing is what convinced him the team was the place to win.
Jere (@jerejj)
19th June 2018, 12:18
@Richard Wrong, his re-signing had nothing to do with this Honda deal as it was made ahead of the US GP last season long before the decision to switch from Renault to Honda power had been made.
MCBosch
19th June 2018, 13:51
True about the timing, but Verstappen did have a visit at the Honda factory before he signed the contract with Red Bull. Although he didn’t have any say in which engine supplier RB would chose, he wasn’t exactly left out in the dark.
Jere (@jerejj)
19th June 2018, 17:33
@MCBosch Good point.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 9:33
I would argue that the Honda PU is already at the level of the Renault’s PU this season
ColdFly (@)
19th June 2018, 10:31
Not so much power output, but driveability & reliability, @johnmilk.
I don’t think they are at Renault’s level yet, and not sure if they will be there from the start of 2019.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 11:27
@coldfly I said I would argue, but an argument I would probably lose.
Seriously, I don’t think they are far off from Renault on power. Reliability is plain for us to see, the STR drivers top that undesirable table, but they will be used as test tubes fro the remainder of the season, penalties won’t be a problem, and from the start of 2019 I believe they could have a better package than renault
nase
19th June 2018, 14:24
@johnmilk
Depends on how you define “far off”, I guess. ^^
Seriously though, if we look at McLaren’s and Toro Rosso’s respective results from 2017 and 2018, with the Honda-Renault/Renaut-Honda switch as the most obvious variable, it is very clear to see that there has to be a significant difference between Honda and Renault. I compiled some stats on that comparison a few days ago, let me check … ah yes, here they are (source):
McLaren’s 2017-2018 form swing:
Average quali result: -1.7 places
Q1 eliminations: -83% (from 6 to 1)
Average finishing position: -4.5 places
Top 10 finishes: +8
Points scored: +40
Toro Rosso’s 2017-2018 form swing:
Average quali result: +2.9 places
Q1 eliminations: +300% (from 2 to 8)
Average finishing position: +3.8 places
Top 10 finishes: -4
Points scored: -10
Also, I can’t help but notice that Gasly’s 4th place in Bahrain was completely unlike the rest of Toro Rosso’s season. I know it’s rather difficult to overperform by accident, and the Bahrain GP wasn’t a crazy race by any measure. But they scored two thirds of their points from 7 races so far in that one race. What if they hadn’t? Would anyone cheer for an engine that propels a car to an average finishing position of 13th, an average starting position of 15th (for reference: Williams start 16th on average), and two points finishes with a total of 7 points? I guess not. Yet, every analysis so far seems to start from that one result (more or less ignoring the remaining 93% of Toro Rosso’s season), and expect Honda to improve from there.
I’m not saying that’s never going to happen. But, boy, what an optimism …
Miani (@miani)
19th June 2018, 18:13
Toro Rosso had Sainz last season.
stefan
19th June 2018, 18:36
This is a useless comparison as the driver lineup for STR changed. While I’m sure the 2018 Renault engine is better than the 2017 Honda most analyst think that at least in terms of power theye are equal at the moment. Anyway RB has all the data from both teams and thus both engines. If there would be a big difference they wouldn’t change suppliers . Apparently they where impressed enough that they decided that another race wasn’t needed as was the plan be before Canada
nase
19th June 2018, 18:57
@miani
Yeah, well, maybe that’s a factor, but in the grand scheme of things, I doubt it.
And even if we just look at Kvyat’s results, the loss of form is detectable.
Kvyat in 2017 (first 7 races):
Avg. quali result: 12
Q1 eliminations: 1 (14.3%)
Avg. finishing position: 10.5
Points per race: 0.57 (0.8 per finish)
Top 10 finishes: 2 (50% per finish)
Toro Rosso in 2018 (first 7 races):
Avg. quali result: 14.38 -> +2.38
Q1 eliminations: 8 (57.1%) -> +300%
Avg. finishing position: 13.2 -> +2.7
Points per race: 1.4 (2.1 per finish) -> +137.5% (+163.9% per finish) [without Bahrain: 0.54 (0.88 per finish) -> -5.8% (but +9.4% per finish]
Top 10 finishes: 3 (33.3% per finish)
In other words, Kvyat still performed better than the current Toro Rosso drivers, with one exception: He scored fewer points. However, that stat hinges on that one ‘anomalous’ result in Bahrain. Without it, the difference disappears.
And of course, there’s McLaren’s form swing that wasn’t positively affected by Sainz’ promotion to Renault (in fact, Sainz has cost McLaren at least 6 points so far this season), and their season-to-season improvement is massive. That alone should be enough evidence for the difference in performance.
nase
19th June 2018, 19:02
@ Stefan
The thing is, I’m not just comparing Toro Rosso’s results, but McLaren’s as well. So, what reasons might there be for McLaren’s massive improvement?
stefan
19th June 2018, 19:31
Like I said the 2018 Renault will be better for sure than the 2017 Honda. RB wouldn’t change supplier if they are to far apart. The reason they waited with a decision until Canada was to see how good the upgrades where. Before Canada they said the would make a decision at there home GP. So basically they wanted data from two races. Apparently the data from Canada was sufficient.
DB-C90 (@dbradock)
19th June 2018, 10:48
Possible straight swap. Dan Ric wants a manufacturer that has a WDC capable car. Question would be who of these 2 teams has the best chance of doing that in the next couple of years as I don’t see him getting an offer from either Merc or Ferrari
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 11:38
@dbradock – that’s an interesting possibility for Ric, isn’t it? Does he stand a better chance with a works Renault car, or hope the Newey/RBR magic can somehow click with Honda? He’s got age and potential on his side though, so a short-term contract either way shouldn’t go remiss.
Hugh (@hugh11)
19th June 2018, 11:43
This is it. With Bottas’ form this season, I can’t see Ricciardo going to Mercedes unless Hamilton decides to retire (which is a possibility), and we all know that Vettel gets to choose his team mate, and if Raikkonen goes elsewhere he’s much more likely to want Leclerc than the guy who comfortably beat him in his first year at the team where Seb was a 4 time champ.
nase
19th June 2018, 16:15
@hugh11
The question is: How much of Bottas’ form is in fact Hamilton’s non-form? My estimate is somewhere close to 100%.
Do we, though? The same talk surrounded Alonso at Ferrari, but then he was partnered with Räikkönen, who he thought was useless.
Vettel’s wish of being team mates with Räikkönen has been granted for the third time in a row, but they might finally get tired of the Finn’s third-rate performances. Meanwhile, Ricciardo has become available for the first time since his unexpected 2014 breakthrough. Why should Ferrari ignore him for the sole reason of keeping Vettel happy. They almost had a shot at the title in 2017, and they’re back in the fight again, but it’s too close to tell at the moment. If there’s a driver on the market whose stats indicate they could go one better with him, is Vettel’s happiness really a factor that should matter to them?
I don’t think so. Ferrari have Leclerc up their sleeve, so they don’t need to offer Ricciardo a record salary. But if he’s happy with less than that, they should sign him.
Miani (@miani)
19th June 2018, 18:17
Bottas was faster than Lewis many times now. It’s just stupid to keep repeating the same excuses to Hamilton bad weekends. It’s not like he’s sick or something, if he’s slower is solely because he can’t go faster by his own capacity or mistakes.
nase
19th June 2018, 20:44
@miani
And your point is? I mean, where did I try to excuse anything? If you read my comment carefully, you’d have noticed that I’m implying that Hamilton has been underperforming so far, and thus making Bottas look stronger than he really is. You can say ‘stupid’ as much as you like, but for the sake of being taken seriously, take a look in the mirror before you do so.
Sam (@)
19th June 2018, 22:34
Rarely do I see a driver labeled as the “nicest guy on the grid” become multi-champion…..perhaps Hakkinen was the last “nice” driver…
Bottas reminds me of Kovalainen.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 8:17
A good decision – 2 years to see if the relationship works, and then decide on the new engine regs for 2021 onwards with Honda themselves, or presumably a new entrant on the PU side.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 8:27
Interestingly, this one move will ensure that both Renault and Honda power two teams each (assuming the current engine arrangements continue), thereby getting them data from the same number of cars, which was something that until now hampered Honda.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 9:46
it was the only logical decision really, Renault is focusing on itself, the customers are just part of their own development, something that McLaren should have thought about when they first signed with them.
RedBull gets to be a works team with an engine that is probably as powerful as the Renault’s, albeit with a little less reliability, but there is still plenty of season to fix that. It is definitely a step in the right direction for RBR, McLaren meanwhile, still stuck in the mud
Sam (@)
19th June 2018, 22:36
…all bets are off post 2020 though…..2 years are hardly development…New reg will shake things up.
Mick Harrold (@mickharrold)
19th June 2018, 10:43
I agree. It’s a bold decision, but worth it I think.
The big loser here is Renault. RB and Renault have been fighting in the media for years. There is clearly no love there. RB have been the loudest voice and have copped the most flak as a result. Renault probably felt emboldened to put pressure on RB for that reason. But the criticism wasn’t without reason. Some say Renault were right to fight back, but I disagree. I think they should have just shut up and gotten on with fixing their problems quicker.
The end result is that Renault have lost RB. The one team that was keeping them from looking as bad as Honda. I would bet that a RB car with the 2018 Honda in it would be a lot faster than the 2018 Renault car with a 2018 Renault engine. Like McLaren this year, next year Renault will be exposed and they will feel it more than they know.
IMHO, Renault would have been smarter to offer free engines to RB to keep them on board. Renault are in F1 for marketing reasons and $25M would be a small figure to pay for what they get in return. With RB, they would have had a shot at the title next year. Without RB, they will be viewed as the worst engine in F1 next year. Worse than Honda!
Honda is a massive winner here. Imagine if RB took them to the top platform at the end of next year. Vindication for them. Even the odd win, or just being competitive is a massive gain. RB can offer that to them.
Also in the losers column (in the short term) is Verstappen and Ricciardo (unless he jumps ship). Honda may be on the rise, but next years engine is highly unlikely to be a world beater. It’s a longer term plan there and Ricciardo doesn’t have time up his sleeve. This deal won’t make him want to stay.
Lastly in the losers column is McLaren. If RB are better than the Renault teams next year, everyone will got to town on McLaren. They will ask whether it really was the Honda engine that was the problem of if it was always McLaren holding Honda back and blaming them for all faults. McLaren needs a really big year next year. They need to beat the Renault factory team as a minimum.
Garns (@)
19th June 2018, 11:21
@mickharrold
Good comment Mick. I think its what we expected and probably their best decision for a chance at a title in the next 2 years until reg changes, but Honda will still need some improvements.
Red Bull are smashing Renault this year, but as Renault make improvements that gap will get smaller.
As a Ricciardo fan I am now keen to see what he does. We don’t know what other options he has (and he only wants two doesn’t he) but with Bottas & Ocon that seems full so Ferrari seems more obvious. Seb is happy as No.1 and likes Kimi, who was driving well early on but fading a bit. Dan wont take no.2 to Seb so can they handle that?
Leclerc is an obvious talent but they like drivers with more experience. I would like to see Dan make a change but my money is he stays at Reb Bull, Kimi gets one more year he probably doesn’t deserve, with all respect to him, then Leclerc will take over 2020.
This MASSIVE driver market we have at the end of this year may amount to nothing at all !
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 11:44
@mickharrold – very nice and thought-out comment.
While I didn’t like what RBR did, I do acknowledge that it was a considered tactic to pressure Renault by publicly airing their criticism, seeing how the loudest complaints were from the team leadership (in contrast to Alonso, where he took it upon himself to lambast Honda the most).
Do you not think Ricciardo’s still got age on his side? i.e. negotiate a 2-year contract with some smart exit clauses, and be ready to play the wider market (as hoped by Liberty) in 2021?
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 15:11
@mickharrold
I think being publicly dragged in the mud every 2 months for 4 years was a disaster for Renault and $25M a year does not come close to offset that in my opinion (obviously just a guess, impossible to trully quantify such impact). The only way this would have been true was if they get proper recognition for, let say, a RB podium or win. However as we have seen again and again is the opposite: RB win with his chassis but lose by his engine, every single time for more than 10 years…
Good riddance from Renault, and I hope RB will get some brain and be respectful of Honda whatever happens.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
19th June 2018, 8:20
Not content with beating McLaren on the ‘same’ engine front, now they are saying we will even beat you with the engine supplier you ditched. As if it needed to be made more official as to who makes the best chassis and has the best aero…
ColdFly (@)
19th June 2018, 8:41
Good one, @tonyyeb.
Next they’ll hire Alonso and show McLaren that it’s not the driver either.
(and put him in the STR to add insult to injury).
ColdFly (@)
19th June 2018, 8:44
And why stop there?
Hire Ron Dennis as head of catering.
Paint the bathrooms orange.
MG1982 (@mg1982)
19th June 2018, 9:36
Ahahahaaaaaa!
Garns (@)
19th June 2018, 11:25
Can Ron cook?? LOL
Todfod (@todfod)
19th June 2018, 18:29
Hahahahaha
Ron could be the next Gordon ramsay
DrG
19th June 2018, 14:37
Does a man worth around £200m need to be able to cook?
I do think people forget quite what that chap who started as a mechanic achieved and is now worth.
Anyone thinking Macca is somehow an improved and more competitive organisation lately as a result of removing Ron is seriously delusional…
Sam (@)
19th June 2018, 22:40
I will have to agree with this one…..Priestly touched on new org. structure at Mclaren in one of his posts.
Gemma
19th June 2018, 8:20
Mclaren failed miserably with Honda. Horner thinks RB will do better?
A very risky and foolhardy move.
Niedle (@niedle)
19th June 2018, 8:24
If there ever was a company that has the funds to work with Honda and ensure success it has to be Red Bull. Look at Mercedes the past years, you need to be a worksteam to win in F1. They will never be WCC again with Renault and they know it. So why not invest 2 years in an engine that is almost equal to Renault to lay the foundation for 2021.
sumedh
19th June 2018, 8:41
Well, yes. For starters, Red Bull actually makes good chassis and don’t just talk about having made one
Sviat
19th June 2018, 9:28
sumedh
For starters, McLaren was actually faster than Red Bull in slow sections. McLaren actually had good results in Monaco and Hungary. McLaren was better than Red Bull in the middle sector on Interlagos.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 9:37
you don’t seem to understand the meaning of setup, maybe McLaren doesn’t understand it either. What is that good for being faster in some sectors? Can they get pole of win a race? No, they can however be 1s slower than a team that has the same engine, I think that should prove enough, don’t you?
MG1982 (@mg1982)
19th June 2018, 9:37
Still….. get real in the end, tho! They have the same engine………
Philip (@philipgb)
19th June 2018, 12:03
Most teams could slap their Monaco aero on and be faster on certain sections of most tracks but then destroy their overall lap time and sightline speed.
McLaren either have an inherently draggy chassis or have been throwing aero on the car to try and bluff their prowess in corners while blaming their power unit.
With the same power unit as Red Bull now though they have nowhere to hide, they aren’t even a match for the still recovering Renault team.
Shimks (@shimks)
19th June 2018, 12:17
There is no need for bold typeface to make your point.
Sam (@)
19th June 2018, 22:41
lol
Todfod (@todfod)
19th June 2018, 18:35
Well.. It seems like a bit of a do or die decision. Either Honda will improve to be slightly more competitive than Renault and they could be serious contenders for the WDC or they could have 2 seasons where they’re slightly more off the pace than Mercedes and Ferrari.
Let’s see how it pans out. My prophecy pre season was that Red bull would switch to Honda after an engine upgrade from Honda, and things would start to go horribly wrong for Honda towards the end of the season. Honda would then relegate Red bull to P4.. Behind Mclaren in 2019.
Too early to say i guess. But it’s definitely a risky decision.
Esploratore (@esploratore)
20th June 2018, 2:49
That would be insanely bad, we’re not talking about a team who is holding on to 3rd place, we’re talking about a team that challenges the top 2 teams and if such teams weren’t here, would dominate. Being beaten by ANY of the other teams would be a disaster, even for my pessimistic honda expectations.
Jon (@johns23)
20th June 2018, 6:21
They will. Its inevitable Honda would start to get even with at least the Renault. Its the right choice from Red Bull
Azmo (@azmo)
19th June 2018, 8:33
I think it’s a smart move. They figured Renault will never catch up with ferrari or mercedes, always one or two steps behind.
They will be third whatever supplier they choose, at least with Honda they will be a works team of sorts and potentially catch up with the two teams ahead. I’m pretty sure rbr did their due dilligence having a front row seat in the toro rosso garage.
johntodiffer
19th June 2018, 8:53
My take is that the performance of all four engines is converging probably very near the theoretical maximum of the formula. ie. MB have been close to extracting the maximum for years and haven’t been able to find much more. Ferrari have caught MB and may only be slightly ahead by some engineering trickery (oil doping/burning & double batteries etc.) Renault & Honda were getting closer all the time and RB certainly have the performance/reliability data to choose (we’ve seen a lot of RB’s parked over the last couple of years).
The RB/Renault relationship has been sour for years and if they ultimately produced a superior donk they’d be sorely tempted to make sure RB’s build (or approved implementation) was just a little off.
Sam (@)
19th June 2018, 22:44
Has anyone heard of the “Honda” culture…..2019 should be interesting to see how RBR can break that culture to be a true “works” team.
StephenH
19th June 2018, 8:40
Having data from two teams can only help Honda, but only signing a two year deal wouldn’t fill me with confidence if I were them.
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
19th June 2018, 8:44
It could only be two years. Not even FI, Williams have more than two years left with Mercedes.
David Not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard)
19th June 2018, 14:37
@tonyyeb So… Williams-Honda to return to the heights of the ’80s instead of McLaren-Honda?
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
19th June 2018, 14:43
@davidnotcoulthard Who knows?! I suspect most deals will run up to the end of 2020 in line with the FOM commercial agreements. Plus the hope of new teams entering, maybe new engine suppliers as well. Williams-Cosworth? Force India-Aston Martin? McLaren making their own engines?
David Not Coulthard (@davidnotcoulthard)
19th June 2018, 14:50
@tonyyeb well they’d better not end up going TVR in that case
tonyyeb (@tonyyeb)
19th June 2018, 14:53
@davidnotcoulthard Ha! McLaren making their next cars from old Morris running gear and Ford switches.
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 8:50
Correct decision from Red Bull I believe. They now have an engine that seems to be on-par with the Renault, except that Honda probably has superior infrastructure and budget, which will only help long-term. Moreover, they will definitely be better of financially, which will lead to greater investment in the chassis. The only possible downside could be that Red Bull and Adrian Newey are famously insistent on have unbelievably tight-packaging, and we have seen how Honda struggled with that over the three years prior. But let’s hope they have learnt from their mistakes. If the Honda can indeed be on-par, or even close to the performance of the Mercedes and the Ferrari engine, I really wouldn’t bet against Red Bull securing titles in 2019 and 2020. New aerodynamic regulations next year as well, Newey and Honda might have a field day.
marcelh
19th June 2018, 9:50
Correct new aero reg’s next. So instead of adapting a chassis they know to it, they will also have to create a new chassis to fit de honda.
New chassis that they will have to learn. A engine that hasn’t been proven to run reliably at the pace RB does.
No I do not think RB will become WC in 2019 or 2020.
Asanator (@asanator)
19th June 2018, 11:12
Like they did at the start of 2017 with an engine that they knew?
Warheart (@warheart)
19th June 2018, 12:14
@asanator indeed. Back in the day people were talking about how “anyone” could win with a Newey car, yet Vettel won more races in 2011 than RBR has managed to win in all the turbo era. The last title won with a Newey car that wasn’t driven by Vettel was 20 years ago. I’m not saying that Vettel deserves all the credit, my point is that nobody can guarantee a winning car in F1. Not Newey, not Ross Brawn, not James Allison, not Paddy Lowe.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
19th June 2018, 19:44
@warheart Well, at that time the engines were all equalised. So then aero was the deciding factor and Newey clearly was best at that.
Lately that hasn’t been the case perhaps since the new hybrid powertrains, but the decade before it sure was.
Also, we had the FIArari period were really only Ferrari was supposed to win. Which coincides exactly with the gap where his cars weren’t winning titles.
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 14:52
@asanator They had issues with their wind tunnel, which caused them to go down the incorrect route. Once they realized the problem, they very quickly caught up to the front two, and have overtaken them now.
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 15:13
@mashiat before they found the issue they were quick to blame it all on the engine. Good luck Honda!
jamesluke2488
19th June 2018, 8:50
Outside bet, as proven the Mclaren Chassis is the issue and not the Honda engine, could a Danny move to Ferrari see a Alonso move to Red Bull! Honda paying his salary again!
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 8:52
There is no chance that Red Bull would sign Alonso. It will almost certainly be Sainz in the unlikely scenario that Ricciardo leaves, with perhaps one of Alonso/Vandoorne moving to Renault, and Norris being promoted to McLaren.
GechiChan (@gechichan)
19th June 2018, 16:33
Vandoorne, considering his form in the last couple of years, might be moving to Renault… formula Renault 2.0
sumedh
19th June 2018, 8:56
After Alonso made endless noises about ‘GP2 engine’, if Honda takes Alonso as a driver again, then they are bigger fools than Mclaren.
BigJoe
19th June 2018, 9:17
Bigger fools than Toyota even.. oh wait….
BigJoe
19th June 2018, 9:19
Alonso’s results alone earned McLaren an extra 25 million in one season. As Zak Brown pointed out, some expensive drivers will pay for themselves.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 9:39
He as on a 40 million dollar salary, his results barely pay half of it. If that info is correct
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 10:03
@johnmilk Let’s put it this way. If McLaren had two Stoffel Vandoornes driving the car, they would be 9th in the constructor’s championship with 16 points. Because of Alonso, they are currently 5th with 40 points. I believe that the difference in prize money between 5th and 9th outweighs that. And that excludes external income and exposure from having a driver of Alonso’s stature and reputation as well (not only for their F1 brand, but also their road cars I would assume).
FlatSix (@)
19th June 2018, 10:26
@mashiat Maybe if they had two Vandoornes they could actually focus on at least one Vandoorne rather than screwing half of his races for the sake of Alonso.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 11:14
@mashiat I’m talking about the past years, considering their finishing position.
Alonso was good for McLaren because they weren’t the ones paying his salary. But lets not pretend the results he achieved during the McLaren-Honda partnership where worth his salary in prize money. Other things, probably, but that is it.
I don’t know if it is important for them to have Alonso for the sake of their road cars business, at least it doesn’t seem that way, taking into that they named one of the models Senna
It also doesn’t bode well that they managed to elevate him to a status where it feels like he is more important than the team, and he does pretty much what he pleases, luckily McLaren doesn’t enter Le Mans, if it did, would he be driving in a LMP1 for toyota?
Asanator (@asanator)
19th June 2018, 11:19
@mashiat
I am pretty sure it is more because of other teams early failings than Alonso. Let see where they are at the end of the year shall we, I suspect 8th with only Williams and Sauber behind them.
Hollidog
19th June 2018, 10:26
Don’t forget about the $100m from Honda paid to Mclaren as sponsorship, and that they now have to pay ~$20m for engines from Renault. All of this to keep the most overrated driver in the paddock happy. And now they have to start an IndyCar team…
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 8:52
This is a very good news for all parties involved in my opinion, and not really a surprising one. Honda get a proper team to shine at the front, Red-Bull become a pseudo-factory team again (which is their only chance of championshoip victory medium-term), and Renault is finally free of RedBull constant dishonesty and mud-dragging attitude.
sumedh
19th June 2018, 8:54
Except for Mclaren though. Tough questions for Eric, Zak and Johanthan Neale on why were they so convinced that Honda was the problem last year.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 9:02
Mmm, good point, sumedh. It’s not just TR running Honda, it’s the confidence with which RBR are making the move which will really open up those questions.
Asanator (@asanator)
19th June 2018, 11:24
LOL It is almost as though Alonso is steering the McLaren ship himself, making his usual excellent choices about the future as seen throughout his career.
Robbie (@robbie)
19th June 2018, 13:32
@sumedh I disagree. Honda was a big part of the problem. Not the whole part but a big part. It is ridiculous to suggest that just because Honda has finally shown a few strides after 4+ years, now with STR, it was Mac that was the problem all along. Mac did what they had to do, and is now doing better with Renault than they had been with Honda. But let’s be mindful that it is always a marriage, and a very crucial one more than ever in this gen of F1 cars. There is no separating PU and chassis. It’s about how both components did or didn’t do….together.
This reminds me of when FA left Ferrari, and for two years after that every time Ferrari had a good day the internet would buzz with speculation as to FA’s regret level, with mic’s in his face about it. And to this day Ferrari still haven’t won a WDC or WCC without FA. The regret questions faded. As will any questions directed at Mac now as to what woulda, coulda, shoulda happened if they had stayed with Honda. There comes a time when, without the luxury of a crystal ball, one just has to take a chance and cut one’s losses and hope for the best, when standing pat just doesn’t any longer seem like the thing to do.
I also thought it was interesting when earlier in the season there was a feature where Zak Brown drove FA around a track in a McLaren P1 while FA asked him questions…like pick answer a or b…anyway after one of the questions that brought up Honda, they both said they love those guys at Honda. I took that to mean no hard feelings…they know Honda are great people and had all the best intentions and were not purposely underperforming, and were just as devastated at how events unfolded and at losing Mac as anyone.
sumedh
19th June 2018, 15:12
There is a difference between Fernando’s divorce with Ferrari and Mclaren’s divorce with Honda. Ferrari initiated divorce with Fernando with a humility that all was indeed not well with themselves and that they couldn’t be competitive as early as Fernando wants. Fernando was removed to reduce the pressure on the team and give the team the time it needs.
On the other hand, Mclaren initiated divorce with Honda with a hubris that all was perfect with them and everything wrong was the other guy. Hence, the regret questions.
Not true. Mclaren could have introspected and rationally checked to see if their chassis was indeed as good as they thought it was. Had they reached the correct conclusion – that their chassis was worthy of a midfield team – they would have never initiated the divorce as it would make no sense. And that is also why they are doing barely better with Renault than they were with Honda.
Robbie (@robbie)
19th June 2018, 17:04
Hmm, I agree with what you’re saying about how FA left Ferrari, but you must admit questions as to FA’s level of regret for that decision lingered for, as I suggested, a couple of years while Ferrari’s re-organizing started to show some results with SV. FA’s pat answer had become that if they aren’t winning Championships yet, why would he regret the move?
I don’t agree that Mac thought they were perfect and that it was all Honda. I think that is rhetoric generated more by fans than by anything they have said. Sure they claimed to have a great chassis, but it is undeniable that the Honda’s were underpowered if they were to be run at a level to achieve reliability. Did we not see enough Honda failures, and lack of performance, to see that Honda was a big part of the problem?
Let’s be mindful that it had been three years of this. It is only with the luxury of hindsight that anyone would suggest perhaps Mac should have stuck it out for another season. The fact that Mac is already doing better with Renault after so little time with them, compared to the multiple years of repeated struggle with Honda, shows that Mac made the right decision for themselves at the time. I personally do not question their decision or wonder if they have regrets. They simply could not see themselves risking another year of more of the same after three of them. And I reject the notion that after three seasons Mac was still insisting on body panel ‘packaging’ or what have you that was harming the effort, harming Honda.
How about we theoretically give Mac the three seasons they had with Honda to their relationship with Renault, and then a more fair comparison can be made. Or, let’s compare this year with McRenault to year one of McHonda.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
19th June 2018, 19:55
@robbie To be fair, McLaren was appalling too. The mechanics kept making amateur mistakes over and over. Remember Alonso trying to push his car back to the pit … because a power connector came loose?
Of course the Honda engine had it’s issues (to say it mildly), but since McLaren kept messing up too. Honda got almost no mileage even when the engine was running.
You see the same now with McLaren using the Renault engine. McLaren still keep having issues with the quality control of their car.
They already had 3 DNF’s. None related to the powertrain itself.
Todfod (@todfod)
20th June 2018, 7:33
Got to agree with @robbie on this one. Honda might have improved slightly this season with TR, but you cannot discount the fact that they were ridiculously poor from 2015 to 2017. The fact was that on chassis dependant circuits, Mclaren was stronger and on power dependant circuits, they struggled. There was more than enough justification for the Renault move, so there’s no reason to constantly question their decisions.
The media is always going to throw up stories when Honda has the odd race where they perform well, but they are completely hiding the fact that Honda is still the most unreliable engine. Also, Red bull working with Honda is a very different scenario from Toro Rosso working with Honda. Expect Red bull to push the boundaries more and sacrifice reliability for performance. There will definitely be more variables when working with Red bull, which is why they’ve only signed a 2 year deal.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 11:17
Renault will have one less team to sabotage, as they did with STR, since we are talking about dishonesty I thought that was something worth mentioning
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 11:38
@johnmilk i dont buy this conspiracy theory at all and at the time Tost sounds like a complete idiot in my opinion. Renault perform very badly with their spare and should take a full responsability/walk of shame for that. But sabotaging TR I found this ridiculous, the PR risk are not even vaguely worth it for a 5th place at a constructor championship.
Beside you provide one example (not a good one imo) whereas in RB case we have 10y + of it.
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 11:39
@johnmilk i dont buy this conspiracy theory at all and at the time Tost sounds like a complete fool in my opinion. Renault perform very badly with their spare and should take a full responsability/walk of shame for that. But sabotaging TR I found this ridiculous, the PR risk are not even vaguely worth it for a 5th place at a constructor championship.
Beside you provide one example (not a good one imo) whereas in RB case we have 10y + of it.
Joao (@johnmilk)
19th June 2018, 12:11
@pyon not a conspiracy, STR had to run with refurbished parts to mediocre effect
the PR risk of Singapore 08 was even bigger, 10 years later we still have Renault in F1
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 12:16
@johnmilk i completely agree lack of new parts is a real shame on Renault. I though by “sabotaging” you were refering to Tost comments back at the time where he was actually saying Renault did that on purpose to get a championship position, why i found ridiculous.
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 8:53
How much do you wanna bet that just as the power units will start to converge until they are almost equal, the 2021 regulations will simply swoop in and there will be a repeat of 2014 again? Let’s hope not.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 9:06
@mashiat – I made a very similar comment some days ago – maybe we should just delay the 2021 engine regs, seeing as how teams are getting closer on engine power, and just allow the 2019 aero regs to go through.
BigJoe
19th June 2018, 9:23
The manufacturer’s dirty and corrupt politics of keeping road relevance is getting more laughable by the month as the world is changing way too fast. They will admit it when it’s too late. If Merc, Porsche and Audi are going into Formula E then they can put legacy engines back in F1 cars again.
FlatSix (@)
19th June 2018, 10:41
@phylyp 2021 regulations are going to be the worst, and isn’t something F1 needs right now. The engines are almost converged on power, the customer teams are all doing great, there’s no real trend of one car being dominant all the time whichever part of the field you look at. I would keep these engines at least untill 2025, and gradually work towards a better aero design by 2025. Come 2025 you switch the engine design but with the perfect aero design.
Instead we’re just having everyone spend loads of money on everything only to have it destroyed by 2021 and trying to shake up the entire grid again, creating massive costs only to have Ferrari and Mercedes come out on top again and the customer team with the best engine ruling all of the midfield.
If you ever want a Williams or Sauber to come to the front continuity is what they need.
But perhaps @keithcollantine has a different view on that?
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 10:57
I think the idea behind new regs in 2021 is not so much for power convergence, but instead to try to attrac new engine manufacturers as currently F1 is held in hostage with no independants and MER/FER trying to get a common policy to influence the rule book when/where they need it.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 10:59
@flatsix – unfortunately, the 2021 regs are being pushed through for non-technical reasons, with cost savings and more participation as the drivers. Liberty must push those parties who expressed interest to firmly commit to their F1 entry in 2021. Now, who’s going to push Liberty for following up on that is probably an open-ended question. “Resetting” PU performance in 2021 might be acceptable if we get maybe 2 more PU suppliers then, but such a reset will be a shame if we end up with the existing 4 PU suppliers once again.
FlatSix (@)
19th June 2018, 11:06
@phylyp have the 2021 regulations ready by mid of 2019, have commitment from end of 2019 from these so called interested parties, and if these don’t lead to 1 new entry or 2 new PU entries, bin the engine reg changes and continue working on the aero regs.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 11:20
Yep, I can get behind something like that @flatsix , just that I have no voice with Liberty :-)
FlatSix (@)
19th June 2018, 12:54
@phylyp So shall I call Chase or will you do the honours?
RB14
19th June 2018, 11:32
@flatsix very short sighted of you. See my comment below re: the basics of the new engine formula.
The way you guys are talking is like the MGU-H is making 80% of total power output or something!
RB14
19th June 2018, 11:30
2021 is in no way comparable to 2014, the engines are going to share MANY common components and architecture to the units we have now. 2014 was a wholesale, ground up redevelopment!
Come on racefans, you should know better than some of the comments here.
FlatSix (@)
19th June 2018, 12:54
I don’t see how that is relevant to my POV? Do you really believe the changes will not once again swing the balance towards on manufacturer where as right now we’re mighty close to the similarity we had end of the V8 era?
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 14:57
It won’t be, but there is almost certainly be one engine manufacturer who will find a way of losing less due to the 2021 regulations. Not to mention that some may turn their attention to it sooner than others like happened with the 2014 regs when Mercedes basically started development in 2011, and Renault started later, and Honda (obviously) even later.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
19th June 2018, 19:58
@mashiat This is a lie and you know it. Renault was the first to start developing the new engine. In fact they were so early that the engine rules changed when they claimed they were already almost done (from inline to V on advice of Newey).
Mercedes and Ferrari kept stopping the new engine formula for the longest.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 9:04
I predict this week’s team principals’ press conference will consist of Horner, Abiteboul and Zak Brown. 😊
sumedh
19th June 2018, 9:07
Lets add Hasegawa to this line-up please :)
iCarbs (@icarby)
19th June 2018, 11:02
+10000!
Jere (@jerejj)
19th June 2018, 17:40
@phylyp More likely Horner/Toyoharu Tanabe/Abiteboul. One representative from each of the relevant parties of this particular topic.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
20th June 2018, 1:24
@jerejj – I thought of that, but a Honda rep is going to be so boring, they’ll just repeat general platitudes about how happy they are to expand their partnership, how they look forward to working with THE, etc.
With Zak up there, the reporters can grill him with more pointed questions – “a better-performing team than yours has chosen Honda, what do you have to say?” type of questions.
Or else, put all 4 of them up there!
Jere (@jerejj)
20th June 2018, 3:32
@phylyp It’s now been confirmed since that the three representatives I brought up will attend the Friday team personnel press conference and that the fourth representative will be Fredric Vasseur rather than Zak.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
20th June 2018, 3:40
@jerejj – ah, those 3 were the obvious choices as you pointed out 👍. Poor Fred Vasseur, he’s going to have little to do there.
I still wish Zak were there, it would have been good to ask him about a) the RBR deal b) rumours about Whitmarsh c) Alonso’s 24h performance vs. a McLaren F1.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
21st June 2018, 5:54
@jerejj – it looks like the interviews have been changed slightly, with McLaren present via Boullier (not Zak), and Honda’s Toyoharu Tanabe absent.
Source: https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/headlines/2018/6/fia-press-conference-schedule—france.html
Jere (@jerejj)
21st June 2018, 14:08
@phylyp Yes, I noticed that as well and had done so earlier already.
Stephen Crowsen (@drycrust)
19th June 2018, 9:14
I know Honda will appreciate the honour they’ve been given by Red Bull that their Premier F1 team has chosen the Honda engines for next season.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
19th June 2018, 9:18
I think Honda were targeting RBR instead of McLaren since they returned to F1 since they have chosen Milton Keynes as their HQ. Tough call for RBR but I think this is more a result of their Renault partnership not working properly as the development rate and requirement of like RBR could not be matched by Renault who are more focused on their works team.
Mashiat (@mashiat)
19th June 2018, 10:06
@tifoso1989 I somehow doubt they foresaw this in 2013 when the deal with McLaren was announced. I think Milton Keynes being chosen was purely coincidental. Given the state Honda was in, until this year, there was no chance for Red Bull wanting engines that even Sauber rejected.
Asanator (@asanator)
19th June 2018, 14:34
@mashiat maybe not as far back as 2013, but Redbull have played the long game. As soon as Renault rejected Mario Illien’s single cylinder mock-up that Redbull arranged for them (with Renault insisting on going their own way) Redbull then placed Illien at Honda with a view to moving over to them when the redesigned 2017 engine (with Illien’s input) came good.
Sviat
19th June 2018, 9:32
This is a correct decision. Renault will never catch up to Mercedes or Ferrari, whereas Honda made a huge step forward in seven races (-0.4 seconds).
If only Honda removed Hasegawa and Arai a couple of years earlier…
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 10:08
What a joke, Renault made the same gains at the same time…. RBR is not moving for performance reason right now, but they are betting for their future here hoping Honda will keep improving.
Deej92 (@deej92)
19th June 2018, 9:43
Absolutely the right decision. Clear progress by Honda this year, works status, HQ just down the road, easier to work with than Abiteboul.
I think it’s admirable that Honda have pulled it back from looking lost last year with potentially an early exit from F1 to now powering Red Bull and Toro Rosso.
Great news for the sport.
On a side note, I don’t see Ricciardo moving because of this like a lot of people seem to predict. There’s no other seats for him unless Raikkonen retires.
MG1982 (@mg1982)
19th June 2018, 9:58
Kinda predictable move given the overall current context, just wasn’t sure if it was going to be 2019 or 2020. Given that Renault is present already for quite some years in F1 with own team and obviously they aim high, RBR couldn’t have been 100% sure anymore Renault would have given them the “last key” to unlock the full potential of the engine, so they were a little bit forced by this aspect to sign the engine manufacturer that has no reason at all to deliver them a detuned engine. Plus, RBR might get some money from Honda to cover the team’s expenditures, so another important gain for them. That’s why I’m almost sure McLaren will return to Honda in few years time, especially when ALO will be out of the team… ’cause it’s obvious he was 1 of the main reasons McLaren decided to ditch Honda.
RB14
19th June 2018, 10:08
This is a brilliant move and I think the naysayers (mainly McLaren fans) will be eating their words.
The Honda engine facility is also in Milton Keynes, the car will be designed as a true works unit from the ground up, Red Bull will pour a ton of investment and technical expertise into the engine (as they did to get the Renault to where it is now, Ilmore anyone?) and Red Bull are just plain better than McLaren in every single way these days. The humiliation of McLaren will be complete next year.
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 10:19
So Renault engine is where it is thanks to RedBull?!! Oh my god… sometimes i wonder why i am reading F1 comments.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 11:33
@pyon – why believe a random commenter on the internet, when you can have Renault themselves laying it out for you.
https://www.renaultsport.com/Interview-with-Remi-Taffin-6518.html (dated Dec 2015):
And just how did Ilmor come to offer useful suggestions to Renault? The answer lies in this article: https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/34404641 (dated Sep 2015):
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 12:10
@phylyp thanks for commenting with sources. However i have already read those articles back in the time and i completely fail to see how we can give any credit to RB in Renault’s engine developpment.
We need to set the context, as at the time of Taffin’s interview they were still working with Ilmor, so obviously he is not going to say they are bad (and I am not saying they are btw) – only RBR/MAC drag their active partners in the mud publicly. “We did not see the full extent of the collaboration in 2015 for various reasons” this as far as Taffin will go to say they did not provide the expected results. You will find plenty of internet articles (including the one you quoted) saying Renault did not use the design provided by Ilmor in 2015.
What happen between Ilmor/Renault in 2016 i would be keen to know and if you find article explaining how benefitial/detrimental it has been i would be interested. What we do know tho is early 2017 Ilmor was no longer working with Renault, so it does seems very succesful relationship in my opinion (but i lack facts to confirm that).
Also to setup the context further, Ilmor’s involvment never went further than the ICE, which is only one part of those complicated engines. So when i read “Red Bull will pour a ton of investment and technical expertise into the engine” that make me choke, like i would be if I read somewhere than McLaren “pour a ton of investment and technical expertise” in Honda’s engine…
“The power unit is deemed to consist of six separate elements: the internal combustion engine (ICE), the motor generator unit-kinetic (MGU-K), the motor generator unit-heat (MGU-H), the energy store (ES), turbocharger (TC) and control electronics (CE). “
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 12:12
it does NOT seems very succesful relationship *
RB14
19th June 2018, 12:11
@pyon see @phylyp ‘s post. Next?
Patrickl (@patrickl)
19th June 2018, 20:06
It was actually Red Bull who insisted on Renault not doing any dyno tests and focus on performance only. Which resulted in an engine that was utterly unreliable. And then of course Renault was blamed.
Also Red Bull insisted on getting their own engine to make it fit with Newey’s size zero concept. Which meant that Renault had to run around designing an engine for Red Bull and then another for their other customers. With the size zero concept wreaking havoc on the engine’s reliability.
So if anything, Red Bull hindered engine development tremendously.
Asking Illmore to shed some light on the engine hardly means Red Bull’s technicians improved the engine. Illmore is not Red Bull.
Red Bull had a commissioned a one cylinder prototype which was completely useless in developing the Renault engine. That they then later partnered up to work out some ideas is nice, but how is that Red Bull technicians swooping in to improve the Renault engine?
unsatisfieduser (@itichy)
19th June 2018, 10:17
So, I wonder what this will mean for their partnership with Aston Martin?
Firstly, will it be Aston Martin Red Bull Racing Honda from next year? Reminds me of the odd BMW Sauber Ferrari.
And secondly, is this the confirmation that Aston Martin’s indication of entering as an engine supplier was just a marketing stunt after all? Many questioned the credibility of those statements anyway, since they don’t even build the engines for their road cars themselves. Although to be fair, they already acknowledged that they would need a partner with experience in F1.
I still like the idea if them entering in 2021, if it’s really a project that is thought through and will give the teams another option to choose from. Yet, at the moment I don’t really see it happening and this announcement is one reason why.
montreal95 (@montreal95)
19th June 2018, 10:20
@mg1982 Renault are prohibited by law(which is checked every race by the FIA) to give RBR “detuned” engines. Naturally the Renault PU is designed for the Renault chassis and fuel supplier so the packaging and the fuel efficiency on the RBR might be compromised. But otherwise it’s identical. Whenever a customer team says otherwise(and I don’t remember anyone recently saying so), know that it’s total BS.
Phylyp (@phylyp)
19th June 2018, 10:55
@montreal95 – I agree with you that the regs (especially the revisions for 2018) prevent a PU supplier from favouring one team over another (even if one is the works team) via detuned engines or differing ECU parameters.
However, there is a still a way that a PU supplier can tilt the scales to favour one team, and that is through “product binning”. Here’s how: assume that there is a Renault-internal specification that all engines must have less than 5 “units” of vibration when run at 10k rpm on the dyno for 15 minutes continuously. Now, let’s assume that of 6 engines being tested for delivery to 6 cars, two of them have just 1 unit of vibration, two of them have 2 units of vibration, and one each have 3 & 4 units of vibrations. Deciding which team gets which of those pieces can still make a difference… maybe not in race #1 for that PU, but possibly before race #7. Cherry-picking in such a manner can still mean that the PU supplier wields some influence.
Patrickl (@patrickl)
19th June 2018, 20:07
@phylyp By how much?
Martin
21st June 2018, 14:55
Don’t the FIA allocate engines though?
montreal95 (@montreal95)
19th June 2018, 10:24
Good move by RBR I believe. Their relationship with Renault was going nowhere. Honda has made good progress this season. And if they fail to improve further until 2020 they can ditch them in time for the new engine regs in 2021.
Tommy C (@tommy-c)
19th June 2018, 10:44
If I heard this news 12 months ago, I’d have been hugely concerned. Having seen how surprisingly competitive Toro Rosso has been and now seeing how McLaren’s woes certainly weren’t down to just the engine, I’m feeling pretty optimistic for Red Bull. Suddenly Ricciardo staying at Red Bull sounds a bit more attractive. Fingers crossed Honda can be at least on par with Renault at the start of 2019.
Pyon (@pyon)
19th June 2018, 10:53
I think RIC staying at RBR is not about the engine, but 100% about if he can get a drive at Mercedes or Ferarri. If he can get MERC/FER then the engine does not matter he will ditch RBR. If he cannot, then well, i suppose RBR engine does not matter has he has no choices.
Garns (@)
19th June 2018, 11:32
Correct- if he can get a shot at a WDC car over the next two years he takes it and goes. That doesn’t mean if RBR look better for 2021 regs he cant move back- wont be the first or last driver to leave and return in F1.
I wonder how much Kimi would like to go rallying again (didn’t they pay him 20 million to leave last time?)
DB-C90 (@dbradock)
19th June 2018, 10:45
Good move indeed. Renault had no interest in improving their PU in 2014/15 and have been clear since re-entering F1 as a team that their sole focus is their team.
hello kitty
19th June 2018, 10:54
this is a good move by red bull , hello kitty would have done the same. honda are bound to improve (and they have already), renault’s main interest will always be their works team, so sensible business/sporting decision.
and if i was a red bull driver, i would think twice about leaving behind an adrian newey chassis!!!
Philip (@philipgb)
19th June 2018, 12:06
Win win for Red Bull. They either catch a break and Honda come good, or they catch a cheap power unit supply while waiting for the new power unit rules in a few years.
Robbie (@robbie)
19th June 2018, 13:36
Yup and in the meantime it wasn’t looking like RBR were going to win the Championships over the next two years with Renault anyway, so…
Gabriel (@rethla)
19th June 2018, 13:55
@robbie What do you mean?
If Verstappen brings his a-game Red Bull almost seems ready to contend this year.
Robbie (@robbie)
19th June 2018, 14:34
@rethla Realistically sure RBR are closer to Merc and Ferrari this season as was somewhat predicted due to stability in the regs, however, they sit third in the Constructors and I believe will remain so. Also if RBR had the same confidence as you in their chances, they wouldn’t have switched to Honda yet, as another year with Renault would have perhaps really seen them in it in a serious way for the Championships. They seem convinced Renault is a dead end street for them, in spite of some encouraging performances by DR and Max this year.
Gabriel (@rethla)
19th June 2018, 19:49
@robbie
Renault doesnt have to be a dead end street just because Honda is the way forward. I think there is to much doom and gloom about Renault, they are far beyond the 2014 situation.
Robbie (@robbie)
19th June 2018, 20:27
@rethla Oh for sure. Only the other day I had opined here that RBR should stay with Renault for one more year since they are quite competitive this year and could have been even moreso next year, while having one more year with Honda and STR to see how they’re progressing. But in light of the decision they have made and all that has been revealed by Dieter, I think they are doing the right thing and they themselves must consider Renault a dead end for them. As a Max fan I am bouyed by what I have read today, and less nervous on Max’s behalf with the switch to Honda. I still hope and expect to see Renault keep progressing as a works team and for Mac.
Jere (@jerejj)
19th June 2018, 12:19
Unsurprising.
Shimks (@shimks)
19th June 2018, 12:20
Does the Honda Red Bull contract contain an agreement for exclusivity? Can Honda supply teams other than Toro Rosso and Red Bull?
Shimks (@shimks)
19th June 2018, 12:21
And, I mean, going forwards in 2021 and beyond too? Why would Red Bull partner up with Honda otherwise?
Shimks (@shimks)
19th June 2018, 12:23
I know it’s only a two year deal but I would still expect exclusivity agreements going forwards if Red Bull decides to keep going with Honda post 2020. Any idea if that is in the contract?
MG1982 (@mg1982)
19th June 2018, 13:27
Hmmmm, good point. Exclusivity might be good for RBR, but not for Honda, in my opinion. I mean, what if another team (especially McLaren given that they have champ aspirations and need full back-up) wants Honda engines?! Will Honda allow RBR to play them like that, to lose money from potential engine buyers when they lost already a considerable sum to RBR?!
johntodiffer
21st June 2018, 11:53
Honda would sell engines to McLaren in about the same timeframe that Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari would supply RBR.
dusty (@dusty)
19th June 2018, 14:34
I wonder if RBR’s “luck” with engines will get worse after the announcement until the last race of the season. When STR announced their switch to Honda they got very unlucky with their Renault engines.
Archit (@architjain07)
19th June 2018, 14:51
What about engine development for 2021? Given the current state, Merc, Ferrari and Renault can switch early to develop engine for 2021 while Honda will be left developing current engine for 2019-20. RBR should have stuck with Renault till 2020 and given Honda a full charge for 2021 engine regs! Right now Honda has to deliver 2 race winning engines which seems a tall ask! Also all the other teething problems including chassis and engine integration for only two years doesnt seem logical to me! Just an opinion!
Although it would be real fun if somehow RBR, Renault and McLaren join Merc and Ferrari at the front next year!
Ken5
19th June 2018, 23:34
I’m going to enjoy next year already.
I see this as good news for Renault. No more dealing with Marko has to be a good thing. Honda had better perform right out of the box or they will find out McLaren were a bunch of softies compared to this dictator.
After all, does anyone think RBR would have reacted better than McLaren with the 3 years of hell Honda put them through?
I think Marko over thought this one. If Newey moves over to Renault as has been rumored, RBR is toast.
PeterF1
20th June 2018, 18:02
If I where Red Bull, I would push Honda to manufacture lots of updates and would use one of the Toro Rosso cars (Hartleys) as a test-rig. So use one brand new motor per weekend and let him start every race at the end. It would be the fastest way to get a lot of testing for new parts, and Brandon can use it to better his overtaking skills :-) Use Gaslys Toro Rosso for working on reliability.
TribalTalker (@tribaltalker)
21st June 2018, 11:58
I was shocked by Christian Horner’s poor grammar.
“We have always taken decisions such as this dispassionately and with only one criteria in mind…”
Criterion, Mr Horner, criterion!
I was so annoyed I nearly missed the stuff about engines.