Mercedes will consider using team orders after Monza

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In the round-up: Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff says the team will consider after the next race whether to impose team orders on Lewis Hamilton and Valtteri Bottas.

What they say

Wolff was asked whether he intends to impose ‘number two’ status on Bottas, who is 87 points behind Hamilton with 200 available over the remaining races:

I hate to do that. It’s completley against my racing instinct. We try to be always very neutral to both drivers and we haven’t done it yet and we haven’t discussed it.

Let’s see how Monza pans out and how it goes, and then we will address the question whether we need to put all force behind one driver.

But at the moment it we owe it to the two men and to Formula 1 to not interfere into the race.

Quotes: Dieter Rencken

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Comment of the day

Will we ever see an F1 car ‘let off the leash’ the way Porsche’s 919 Hybrid evo was?

Remember, Porsche did the lap without any racing restrictions, actually gaining huge time over same car in race legal trim, now consider F1 taking all restrictions off, no fuel flow or RPM limits, not even a thought of a race then.

I think what Porsche did was awesome, but doubtful F1 would ever push that envelope.
Bosco Moroz

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  • 47 comments on “Mercedes will consider using team orders after Monza”

    1. Have to second LeClerc, it may look ugly but comparisons with Indycar suggest it is a price worth paying.

    2. 1.5 revolutions at 16,000 rpm is 0.005625 seconds, which twice in a pit stop is 0.01125 seconds. (That seems a tad too fast.)

      Even so, by comparison, 5 revolutions at 6000 rpm (still ridiculously fast) is 0.05 seconds, which twice in a pit stop is 0.1 seconds

      1. How much it cost to be that little faster? That’s an example of what’s wrong in f1. Teams go down broke, and other spent MILLIONS on 0.1″ worth of time, in a pit stop, not even for a lap!. That’s just as insane as it is unfair. It feels like they’re bathing their dogs with Evian while other teams can’t afford a pair of wrenches..

        1. No, on the contrary it’s everything right for F1. F1 should all be about chasing every performance they can. That’s the whole point of pinnacle of motorsport. Is it insane? Definitely. I agree with the new tagline of engineered insanity. What’s wrong with F1 is teams can’t budget properly of what they have. Haas, Force India before VM legal troubles, and Sauber under Peter Sauber is an example of most midfield teams should operate. What’s wrong with F1 is when they start making rules to try make things “equal” which only exaggerates the gap because other creative solutions is declared illegal.

      2. The 16krpm is is a peak number. Or even a theoretical maximum. Not continuous speed at which the nuts go in or come off. I did google this quickly and one source claims typical wheelguns made by paoli can reach 9000rpm so 6000rpm is pretty slow by f1 standards.

      3. 16000 rpm is the little engine of the gun. It doesn’t translate 1:1 on rotations of the wheel nut. Just like you have an F1 engine going 12000rpm but your wheels aren’t necesssarily rotating at that same rpm.

    3. About the COTD, Honda did something like that at Bonneville in 2006, and they hit the 400km/h mark when in monza they’ve reached 340 or so. I can’t imagine what can do with these cars, but it should be mind blowing, that’s for sure (just look at the difference between race and qualy times nowadays, with PU that must last for 7 weekends. If they can use it like there’s no tomorrow, i guess they’ll be going at least 3 full seconds faster per lap, being conservative…)

      1. 397 kph is the record they set. Write up from November 2017: F1.com

        1. That’s average speed in two runs in the opposite direction as it is standard in speed records. The peak speed was over 400km/h

          1. Correct. Then why did you write 340 in the first comment? @matiascasali

            1. “…when in Monza…”

      2. No, that car was still to race compliant rules.

        1. Had no rear wing, so no

          1. Ricciardo had no rear wing ;)

    4. DRS completely killed this race. It was already quite dull but those drs passes were by far the worst thing about it. Next year it should be completely banned for this race

      1. Vettel’s pass for the lead was non DRS and then the only hope of a Mercedes pass to take the lead was undercut + slipstream + DRS. I can’t see that it’s worse than a procession.

      2. Totally. In fact I’d forgotten how much I hate DRS until yesterday. First race in 26 years where I have found myself doing household chores during it because I had no interest in Bottas or whoever breezing past other cars on Kemmel Straight. Emptying the dishwasher was more exciting for me.

        1. same. I watched on catchup and skipped several moments, started reading the news, didn’t care if I accidentally found out the result before the end. really poor advert for F1 on its best circuit.

      3. Lap 1 showed it can be done without DRS, Vettel, Verstappen, even Icon and Perez had a look.

      4. @strontium I didn’t find that to be the case, so, therefore, I disagree with you on that to a certain extent. Yes, there were a few passes that were completed before the braking zone for Les Combes that included the use of DRS from the driver behind, but by the same logic, Vettel’s pass on Hamilton that ultimately proved decisive for the race win should then also be regarded as ‘artificial’ since it was equally completed long before the braking zone as well, and the fact it was done without DRS means that it’s possible to pass someone long before the braking zone at that part of the circuit either way, so, therefore, it’s got more to do with the slipstream/tow effect than DRS alone. People are always a bit too eager to blame DRS solely for almost everything.

        1. @strontium I forgot to add: Things aren’t always black and white.

        2. Nothing wrong with passing before the breaking zone, @jerejj.
          Everything wrong with an artificial aid only available to the chasing car, i.e. DRS.

    5. The bend and F1? Impossible. This track is just amazing which means that F1 wont race on it. Why is it amazing? No concrete playgrounds off the track. You put a wheel off the track, you’re on the grass.
      Just leave it to the proper racing series with no gimmicks as it’s perfect as it is and F1 requirements tend to ruin the tracks for other series.

    6. Havent seen it posted about Moto GP being cancelled with them blaming new track surface and water not draining. Why are these tracks keep resurfacing with a newer type of tarmac and then it causes issues. Why not using similar tarmac.
      Also hope that Tito Rapat recovers quick after that aweful accident.

      1. the Moto GP guys will find any excuse they can not to race in the UK. This was the perfect opportunity to blame the circuit, which after they resurfaced it they said it was fine.

        If they could race only in Spain and Italy they would be the happiest kids around

    7. Sadly, Kimi called it exactly right yesterday. Ferrari really screwed up his qualifying with the fuel issue, and he said afterword that he was worried about starting back in the pack because turn one at Spa is notoriously treacherous and it’s tough to get through unscathed. Et voila. I’m not in the camp that thinks the team thwarts him deliberately at every turn, and given the confusion on the radio with Seb, sounds like they almost blew it for him too. They just don’t react to changing conditions as well as Mercedes, and neither of them seem able to match RBR on that score. Hope they don’t throw it away this year, because that’s not an exciting way for a championship to be decided. I want to see all of them out there at the very top of their games, and Ferrari really need to sort this Achille’s heel.

      1. It’s actually quite the opposite.
        Raikkonen and Red Bull had their cars fuelled for multiple laps when they first went out. The others had to refuel when changing to inters even though at that time they all thought going out quickly was the best.
        Then the rain stopped and cars which were refueled could stay out and do a late run.
        More luck than wisdom in this case.

        1. I think not, it’s the other way around. If you mean RBR got it wrong this time, though, I agree. I also may be being too harsh on both Ferrari and RBR on this, it was pretty difficult to anticipate what happened and that rain burst apparently caught everyone by surprise. Life in the Ardennes! From Mark Hughes’ race report, emphasis mine:

          “Just like on race day in Germany and qualifying in Hungary, the wet track neutralised the Ferrari’s small advantage. But it fell in a way that was impossible to anticipate and with such a long lap it caught more than a few people out – and opened up a window of opportunity for others. The expectation as the cars queued up at the end of the pitlane for Q3 was that there’d be time to do a single slick-tyred lap, two at a push. Some, Räikkönen’s Ferrari and the two Red Bulls, were fuelled accordingly. Ferrari split its strategy, putting Vettel on a multiple lap (ie rain) fuel load.

          “But the black cloud broke even before the green light went on, dropping much of its load in the valley comprising sector two and its fast downhill bends. Everyone, apart from the two Force Indias, was straight back in for inters. The rain stayed constant for a couple of laps, at which point Vettel was fastest from Räikkönen, Verstappen and Hamilton, the latter having been off the road at turn 12. But thereafter the rain eased, the track became quicker and Räikkönen and the Red Bulls had to pit to prevent running dry on track – but with not enough time to refuel and get back out to the start/finish line before the flag. So those fuelled a little longer were the ones able to take advantage of the drier track.”

          https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/reports/f1/2018-belgian-grand-prix-report

    8. Yeah, it’s against his instinct… of lying. What he (and Maurizio) did at Germany was utterly ridiculous. And now he has the guts to come with that easy talk. Man, it’s outrageous!

      As for COTD, I doubt F1 will ever do that, and to be frank, I really don’t know why they are like that. If Liberty truly cared about fans, show and stuff, it should drop silly discussions and respond properly to any daring move regarding excellence at motorsport. What Porsche did was something any fan of any series felt amazing. Well, Formula 1 is amazing. It should act like it for once.

    9. Bottas is almost 100 points off the lead. Has won zero races to Hamilton and Vettel’s five.
      This is something one doesn’t even need to say, really. It’s obvious.

      Ferrari will do the same thing. And it’s completely acceptable given how close things are.

      1. It’s been obvious since Hockenheim :P

        1. Since hockenheim? Lol you didn’t watch Silverstone?

    10. Would be amazing if F1 went to “The Bend” but I really can’t see it happening.

      But I would be very quick to buy tickets if it did happen as the track is only an hour from home. Would pack the swag and a BBQ and spend the weekend there. Amazing.

    11. The Bend hope to bring F1 back to SA

      for a few seconds I thought F1 would return to ZA

    12. Mercedes have been using team orders to help Hammy since early last year.

      Made a song and dance about not favouring one driver over the other before Hockenheim, then favoured Hamilton over Bottas by forbidding Bottas from passing the Hamster.

    13. Great to see that Leclerc is happy with the Halo.
      Surely people will say that he wouldn’t have been injured without the Halo. But those discussions are less frustrating than the ‘would have survived with Halo’ discussions of yesteryear.

    14. LOL Are they pretending they haven’t been using team orders already…

    15. I disagree with Oriol Servia especially with the claim ”Not one overtaking is real.” That’s far from the truth. Not all of the overtaking moves that feature the use of DRS are completed before the braking zone for the upcoming corner, actually those type of moves are in the minority, and furthermore, those type of moves are possible even without DRS, so by the same logic, every passing move that is completed long before the braking zone should be labelled as ‘unreal’ regardless of whether DRS is activated or not. If anything a move completed long before the braking zone without DRS is rather more artificial than a DRS-assisted one completed only in the braking zone or at the following corner.

      Regarding James Allen’s tweet: Yes, I agree to the most part, but sometimes, I feel that replays of something that has happened on the opening lap of a race or early into a given race, in general, more than halfway into the race are a bit unnecessarily redundant like yesterday. The same things don’t need to be shown over and over again.

      Regarding the COTD: I also doubt F1 would push the envelope the same way Porsche has been doing in recent past.

      And finally: I doubt F1 would go to the Bend (which I had never even been aware of before).

      1. I think I understand your point about DRS which in a nutshell, is that it’s effects are being exaggerated. However, this is not really the point is it.

        The point people are making, perhaps clumsily, is that DRS is just not necessary in a lot of the places it is being made available. So you can be pedantic about the way this is expressed but you are missing the main argument.

        I am not sure if DRS should be banned, especially not with the current design of cars. I think it’s use should certainly be restricted and more carefully applied though. This is not where the FIA are going!

      2. @jerejj You have decided that the criteria to examine wrt drs is whether or not a pass took place before or during the braking zone. I disagree. It is irrelevant. That the rearward driver had an unfair advantage of his wing open is the point. Doesn’t matter whether the added momentum sees him make the pass sooner than later, it was still from assistance from a gadget.

    16. Thomas Bennett (@felipemassadobrasil)
      27th August 2018, 11:07

      Re Will Buxton
      congrats to Sirotkin. I like the bloke in a way and he does give the Williams a go. A part of me hopes he will stay for 2019

    17. Team orders for Valtteri this season seem to be “Start from the back and do your best!”.

    18. Nice comments from Ericsson about the STR/Honda: https://www.crash.net/f1/news/904338/1/ericsson-honda-deserves-more-credit-f1-engine-progress

      Having made a successful pass at La Source, Ericsson admits he was taken by surprise when Hartley out-dragged him with the aid on DRS along the Kemmel Straight to reclaim the position just moments later.
      “I didn’t expect him to be able to pull past with the DRS but the Honda is better than many people think I think! So they were not too bad,”

      1. Thought about that: that highly-praised Ferrari engine didn’t look that well against TR’s Honda engine yesterday.

        1. Or its just that James Key and his team’s aero is better than what’s on the Sauber, and the Sauber has been punching above its weight in recent races in big part due to the Ferrari engine.

          Hard to say one way or the other, to be honest, as I’m not that experienced in seeing and interpreting car nuances.

          Also, this was Ericsson vs. Gasly, maybe with Leclerc it would have been different; and Ericsson vs. Hartley might have been a fairer comparison ;-)

          1. Ericsson won the battle with Hartley… Yea Leclerc would be better against gasley that had more pace than Marcus and Hartley

    19. Not sure if it is because I stream my TV thru SLING, but again (not always) I had to watch the race recorded on ESPN 2 (I’m in the USA) as it was not on live on ESPN. Anyone else in the USA have this experience, or is it because I use SLING?

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