Pierre Gasly, Red Bull, Circuit de Catalunya, 2019

Gasly feeling Honda gains without pushing flat-out

RaceFans Round-up

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In the round-up: Pierre Gasly says he can already feel the performance improvement from Honda’s new power unit despite not having run it flat-out.

What they say

Gasly used Honda’s power unit at Toro Rosso last year, giving him a useful point of reference:

So far it’s been it’s been really good. I think we haven’t pushed it flat out but already you can feel the performance has increased. That’s the main thing, and reliability we had no issue at all.

Also looking Toro Rosso I think it looks really promising. So I think only good news from these four days we just need to keep working. The orders are really fast we saw as well. But at the moment we are tesitng a lot of things on our car and now we need to understand what works best.

Quotes: Dieter Rencken

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Comment of the day

Is 2018 the last chance for Bottas to impress at Mercedes?

Unfortunately for Bottas, he was up against Hamilton driving the best I’ve ever seen him last year.

I think that can be pretty soul destroying when someone that you were at least ‘competitive’ with suddenly makes a leap forward. Webber suffered the same after almost taking the drivers championship in 2010 and never really recovered the performance gap between himself and Vettel.

2019 is really a make or break year for him. He has to find that ‘next level’ or will be forever written off I suspect. That being said, it does take a rare beast to be that good (or some amazing luck) as has been shown many times over the years.
DB-C90 (@Dbradock)

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On this day in F1

  • 25 years ago today Mika Hakkinen led F1 testing at the Circuit de Catalunya for McLaren ahead of Ligier’s Eric Bernard

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58 comments on “Gasly feeling Honda gains without pushing flat-out”

  1. Why would Mercedes and Ferrari succumb to Netflix’s vision for what they had in mind for the F1 show? I mean, with their team orders mentality it’s not hard to see what Ferrari and Mercedes have on their minds. All they care about is themselves and not the good of the sport. It’s obvious. They believe they are above the sport. I’m glad Netflix shunned them.

  2. (*Because pushing the power unit flat-out would cause it to blow up.)

    Rumor has it that Honda negotiated a clause into the contract with Red Bull stating if one of their drivers goes full-throttle at any point, this would void the warranty on the PU…

    Kidding aside they have looked pretty decent thus far, I think the big question is going to be how many races the Honda will last between replacements. Should be a fun year of quotes and radio transmissions by Max if they have a fast but unreliable car.

    This all makes McLaren look like even more of a joke in all this. I don’t doubt Honda made some dreadful engines in the early years, but I can’t help but feel some of that wasn’t Hondas fault. Not to mention if the Honda shows itself to be a solid engine this year, McLaren went from being PAID to run an engine, to now having to PAY for an engine that might prove to be the worst on the grid again again! Oh dear…

    1. Best comment. You speak what many of us are thinking. McLaren cant buy a break. Pun intended.

    2. Oh get off the mclaren bashing. They had a great chassis and a dreadful Honda engine. Ofcourse in the last year, their chassis went bad too, and Honda then improved finally, but it has taken Honda 5 years to improve, and are now in a top 3 chassis so will finally get results. If mclaren had this developed Honda engine 2-3 years ago, people would not be bashing them. Come qualifying in Melbourne, I bet ferrari, Mercedes and Renault engines will outperform Honda with the party modes turned up.

      1. Todd (@braketurnaccelerate)
        25th February 2019, 3:29

        They had a great chassis

        Says who? McLaren?

      2. They had a great chassis and a dreadful Honda engine. Ofcourse in the last year, their chassis went bad too, and Honda then improved finally,

        Seems too coincidental, doesn’t it? The McLaren chassis goes bad only when it can be compared to another car carrying the same engine (2014, 2018) but is awesome in between?

        And to force fit this narrative, you have to manufacture another coincidence that Honda improved only after the McLaren years, obtained their best ever result in just the 2nd race with a new partner and in just a space of 9 months (Singapore 2017 to Canada 2018), went from being rejected by the only team to accepted by a front running team.

        Seems far fetched no?

        Truth is, McLaren had been building below par chassis throughout the Honda years (lower mid field) and paired it with a mediocre engine. Both parties were at fault. If you read one of Eric Boullier’s interview, he said that when McLaren entered Renault data in their simulator in late 2017 (the year of the best chassis), McLaren gained only 1 second in lap time, nothing compared to the 2.5-3 second deficit to the 2017 Red Bull. That is proof that the 2017 chassis, like its predecessors, was not top notch

        1. Add to that McLaren blocking the use of the Honda engine by other teams. Allowing other teams to help develop the engine may have helped speed up the bad times and get to better times (maybe). ESPECIALLY during testing. Honda needed miles and only really got them during the season, which is not when you want engines detonating. At the very least it wouldn’t have hurt. McLaren wanted it all for themselves, so they got just that.

          And from the sounds of it they wanted compact packaging as well. I really never get this. I think it is great to want clean engine cover aero to feed the rear wing or help diffuser or whatever, but maybe wait on that until you are competitive. Surely tight engine packaging is not going to get you from 10th to 4th. Hindsight, but should have let Honda build a massive engine, get it reliable and then whittle it down.

          I hope McLaren turn it around (Williams too), but they are not faultless here.

      3. Oh get off the mclaren bashing.

        GP2 fan…..GP2 fan….;)

      4. They had a great chassis…..

        Oh give it a rest, no one with more than 5 brain cells believes that.

      5. They haven’t made a decent chassis since 2012 or something

    3. This all makes McLaren look like even more of a joke in all this.

      “This all”? What all?
      So far, the only argument (and I can’t stress this fact enough) we have is talk, incessant, repetitive talk from Red Bull’s side that gets printed 1:1 here, without anything like the inquisitive digging most other competitors are subject to.
      Meanwhile, Red Bull discarded the first engine after testing day 1. For ‘precautionary’ reasons, of course. Nothing to do with reliability. Move on, nothing to see here.

      I’d be a lot happier if people stopped jumping at every single statement released by one of Red Bull’s countless PR channels, treating them like the purest of truth written in golden letters. Let them survive qualifying in Melbourne, and we’ll have an idea of how competitive they might really be. Let them survive the first seven races, and we’ll see if they can remotely keep pace with the ‘three engines per season’ regulation. They still have absolutely everything to prove, and the fact that they are continuously treating all these open questions like foregone conclusions just makes me all the more suspicious that they might in fact just be trying to sweep all kinds of uncomfortable questions under the carpet.

      1. Apart from feeling you unfairly request this site to comment/investigate things brought up in the round up – literally a summary of things that were published on F1 in the last 24hrs or so (meaning non of these articles get commented on here, apart from by us, in the comments) – I agree with much of what you mention there nase.

        It took Honda 5 years to get where they are now, they exchanged engines and components last year as if they were just testing, so it would be bonkers had they NOT finally made at least a step forward in both power(delivery) and reliability.
        On top, that Honda got ditched by McLaren might have helped Honda bigwigs finally getting their chips together and get their program into a solid direction.

        It would be good for F1 if they had made that step and Red Bull can be close enough to be regularly in the mix for race wins and even an outside shot at the championship. But we will have to see whether that will be the case. I am looking forward to seeing how Honda goes for power and for reliability once we get into the season.

        1. @bascb

          Apart from feeling you unfairly request this site to comment/investigate things brought up in the round up – literally a summary of things that were published on F1 in the last 24hrs or so (meaning non of these articles get commented on here, apart from by us, in the comments)

          The thing is, I’m not. This round-up article is not the reason for my complaint, it’s just an opportunity to voice it. There is absolutely nothing wrong per se with any article that takes a team’s POV or at least portrays them in a positive light. It only becomes problematic when this kind of article is all we get. As George Orwell (purportedly) said: Journalism is writing something someones doesn’t want published; everything else is PR. We tend to get quite a bit of journalism regarding most teams, painful bites into their exposed flanks that require looking past the PR stories serving to cover them up. I see a great deal of exposed flanks at Red Bull (or Toro Rosso in 2018), but nary a nibble at them, to keep the toothy metaphor going.

          Yes, this round-up article wasn’t penned by any of this site’s contributors. Criticizing its content seems misguided. But it was hand-picked before it landed in this round-up, and it fits into a broader context of articles according to which things are looking particularly rosy at Red Bull, for which there is hardly any non-verbal evidence.

          1. Quite agree with all this, though in all fairness most understand the scope of Racefans’ roundup and nobody is fooled by the fairy tales all teams are constantly depicting.
            And I’m sure some pretty solid analysis will come here – once there’s some data to be crunched.

          2. Also, I think RBR/STR will likely end up hoisted by their own petard. Given that RBR has been the only real dent-maker in the Merc/Fer podiums the last few years, the loss of RBR from the front during those down races will be a bit of a letdown.

      2. Yikes! Remind me not to post next time and I’ll go back to being a happy lurker!

        Despite my comment being filled with many many “if’s” and overall was meant in a lighthearted way, I can see the passionate McLaren fans are ready for the season to start! lol. McLaren have made lots of questionable and unfortunate decisions the last decade or so, but I still respect the team and much enjoy the openness and fun that Zak has attempted to bring back to the team. They let journalists explore and even touch their 2019 chassis at the launch! That was an extremely cool touch, and nothing that would have happened in a billion years under the Reign of Ron.

        I would have a lot to say on the subject of McLaren and their performance and decision making, but I don’t think this is a good moment for that. I don’t want to have a debate and defend my lighthearted comment endlessly!

        For the record I’m a diehard fan of the Scuderia, but I’m a fan of F1 first. I love and can appreciate any team that can prove to build an amazing car or come up with a novel concept. The tech and the details are what really interest me the most!

        Red Bull and Renault are tied in my view of how often they talk and build-up something and then fail to meet expectations. So my comment was in no way because I drank the Red Bull “Kool-Aid” and everything they say is true! So sorry if my joke appears to have opened up some old wounds around here! :)

        1. I can see the passionate McLaren fans are ready for the season to start!

          1. I’m not a fan of McLaren’s. Like, at all.

          Yeah, I think that one point should suffice. False dichotomies are a tad too unicellular for my taste.

          1. I wasnt replying to you specifically Nase, but that’s a fair point, so pardon my broad generalization. I would like to keep the Amoeba’s out of this so I will be more careful with my choice of words ;)

            That said…. as lighthearted as my first comment was intended, I do stand behind what I said.

            I mentioned the concern over how long the Honda engine would last and jokingly referenced the likelihood it would be fragile.

            As far as the joke about McLaren being a joke? I said IF the Honda engine turns out to be decent this year, not that it will be. But IF it is a solid engine and proves to be the match of, or superior to, the Renault PU, then that is nothing other than a slap to the face of McLaren. When you factor in how much Honda was chipping in on top of what Macca is paying Renault for the PU, that would effectively make it the most expensive customer PU on the entire grid by a long long margin to McLarens bottom line. You can slice it however you would like, that is nothing short of a disaster for McLaren. Granted the season hasnt started and nothing is known, I simply stated if such events do occur then its definitely egg on the face.

            That aside, was McLaren right to dump Honda and write a check to Renault? I would say that at the time with the information available, I could not fault them for jumping ship. If they felt their immediate performance was affecting the long term health of the team and jeopardizing its future funding and advertising revenue, well then they did what they felt was right at the time. The problem was alllll of the comments and complaints they constantly handed out towards Honda. Essentially throwing Honda under every single bus they could find while they sang the praises of their chassis. If only we had a decent engine we would be winning races! Well they had the best power unit in F1 in 2014. Not by a mile, but by several miles. They have 2 podiums courtesy of a DQ to show for it. The first year post Honda wasnt much brighter. All of a sudden the complaints about a lack of engine power began to turn into complaints of a flawed aero package. Of Stoff having mysterious missing downforce as if someone stole his downforce when his car was in baggage claim or something.

            My point within my joke was simply that McLaren would constantly huck blame around at anything they could find to explain their results. It made all the constant and very public Honda bashing’s seem extremely shortsighted and unfair.

            Just look at Renault and Red Bull last year to see what impact a team can have on the reliability of a power unit. It’s not just on the PU builder to determine reliability. Is it possible that the specific McLaren installation caused increased reliability concerns? It can’t be out of the question.

            Did Honda build some crap engines? Absolutely! But was it their sole presence that ruined several McLaren seasons? The team really needs to think twice before throwing stones, because there certainly is a lot of glass over at the MTC. There is of course two sides to every story, but one of the narratives paints McLaren as basically telling Honda “build the engine to do ‘this-this and this’, and it needs to fit in this space right here. Do not make it any bigger than that. Size-Zero has spoken!”

            Whereas it sounds like Toro Rosso was more along the lines of saying “okay so what do you need to make this work? You’re the experts you build the power unit and just tell us what you need to make it work.”

            Is that absolute truth? Probably not, but I guarantee you there was elements of truth in my assumptions. Its this lack of looking in the mirror and getting to work to fix the problem instead of pointing fingers to try and save face that has made McLaren a joke to ME. So it would only be fitting for them to sleep in the expensive bed they made for themselves should Honda come good this year. And if Honda doesn’t? Then McLaren still needs to get their heads into a team-first frame of mind.

    4. Lol, but there is a rumour that Verstappen has an ‘out clause’ if the Honda does not perform.

  3. I will really laugh really hard if after all this chatter of Ferrari being on top and Red Bull not far behind, Mercedes come and lock out the front of the grid in Melbourne.

    I hope it will not be easy…and I do hope they are really challenged this year…but I would still laugh if they did.

    1. @mach1 – IF Merc does what you posit, it should surprise zero people here. It is what they have basically done every year during the hybrid era. Run the soft tire all test, bang out mileage, and then break the sound barrier during the season. Whatever they are doing during testing, they are doing it well.

      Maybe this year Ferrari have enough this year that even Secrashtian cannot flub, but we’ll see. I suspect—as you say—Merc has a lot in reserve.

      1. Too many “this year”s in the last paragraph this year, but you get the point this year.

  4. Are journalists only asking RBR about how the engine is going, or are RBR talking about it to whoever will listen? Whenever I see these articles referencing RBR, they are almost always talking about how awesome Honda is and it has been that way for a few months now. Testing didn’t really show anything either way. Maybe the second test this week will give us a bit more of an idea.

    1. @trido, it does seem to be the latter case – that Red Bull are hyping up Honda with every single opportunity that they can get – which does seem to be a slightly risky strategy if things sour for any reason later in the season.

      I know that some here on this site are rather pessimistic about how things will go, whilst elsewhere I have seen some Honda fans really aggressively hyping up their partnership with Red Bull (to the point where they are expecting the team to challenge for both the WDC and WCC). In all honesty though, I would not be surprised if the more frenzied talk at either end of the spectrum is overblown and, instead of either taking a step up in performance or falling back from Ferrari and Mercedes, the net result is really more in the middle and nothing much changes either way.

    2. Yeah, it does seem that RBR are doing a lot to talk up their engine partner, to justify their own choice of going for Honda.

      Let’s see how things are in reality @trido

    3. I really don’t get all the Honda praise. Did they really have such a great year last year with Torro Rosso?

      I don’t think so, especially considering that after TR gloated “we can fight” when they qualified both cars in the top 10, they failed to do so the rest of the season. Finishing well behind Van Doorne who was driving on shredded tires is pathetic yet they continued to make false claims.

      Why do Horner and Marko continue to bash Renault? The relationship is over – move on. It’s stupid to continue to berate them. They won 4 championships with their engines after all.

      Just as baffling is all RBR’s praise about Honda. Unless they are positive that Honda has an engine that is both more reliable and powerful by a significant factor, common sense dictates they should keep a lid on it.

      In fairness to Honda, they haven’t been strutting their feathers – TR and RBR have doing it for them. Maybe they will shine this season, but if they fail to consistently beat Renault they will considered losers. The way Horner and Marko have been smashing Renault, if justice prevails, yellow will prevail.

  5. Maybe Gasly should wait till the Honda engine has been pushed to the limit, and has survived a breakdown. Kind of getting tired of these Honda is awesome statements. Red bull with a Renault engine was on par with Mercedes and Ferrari by the end of last year…. Let’s see if they can start off next season in that same form with Honda. If they can’t… Then all this Honda is awesome talk is just fluff.

    1. Of course Gasly is going to speak positively, and after all, he of all people is the best reference for gauging last year vs now. RBR were never on par with Merc and Ferrari other than at specific tracks. Let’s not make it sound like anything from Honda other than matching Merc and Ferrari now, would be failure. I’m not heaping that pressure on them anyway. If they can just pick up where they left off then that would be a massive achievement given the newness of the relationship, and the fact that Honda still has catching up to do. I expect teething problems and a lesser year than last year in terms of points but sure hope I’m wrong. And it’s a work in progress throughout the season too. Let’s see how they finish off the season, not just start it. They’re just getting started, they’re likely not fighting for the Championships, so it’s all good, just nose to the grindstone and have at it. See what they can do.

      1. I expect teething problems and a lesser year than last year in terms of points but sure hope I’m wrong.

        Well… if Honda has made a step forward and is as awesome as Gasly claims, then Red Bull should be on the attack from race 1. At the end of the day results speak louder than words. Teething problems will majorly affect reliability, so let’s give them a little benefit of the doubt and say they might not have bulletproof reliability when they start… But performance… should be at the same level if not higher than what they finished last year. That will cut through the BS and give us an accurate picture of just how awesome Honda is.

        And it’s a work in progress throughout the season too.

        Hasn’t every team powered by Honda in the past 4 seasons had a work in progress season? At some point of time the work should be finished.

        Red Bull has the privilege of having a B team that worked with Honda for an entire season, so their knowledge gained for an entire year of experiments should have them prepared from race 1 itself.

        While I do agree with the one season of teething problems.. I just don’t think Red Bull is starting off from scratch. They should have gotten their act together by Monaco at the latest, and then let’s see the power of dreams come true.

        1. Depands of how good the aero is this year, so that is a difference with last year where at the end Red Bull had the best chassis. This week test should bring more information if the new rules give Red Bull gains or lose a bit.

        2. @todfod

          But performance… should be at the same level if not higher than what they finished last year.

          This statement assumes that Ferrari and Mercedes have stood still during the winter and haven’t brought more performance to their engines? It also assumes that Redbull have made at minimum the same gains on their chassis all of which are a bit premature I’d say.

          1. @asanator

            Of course all constructors have made chassis gains over the winter.. And yes.. That will make it hard to quantify everything.. But we’ll know straight away from race 1 whether red bull is lacking in the corners or in the horsepower department.

            According to red bull, Honda were already ahead of Renault by the end of last year.. And if they’ve made such amazing progress over the winter on the engine side.. I don’t see how Red bull cannot start this season fighting for wins.

            Let’s see if this comes true.

          2. @todfod He also didn’t say the engine was Awesome. He said

            So far it’s been it’s been really good. I think we haven’t pushed it flat out but already you can feel the performance has increased. That’s the main thing

            .

            Not quite the same thing, and he is the one person who is uniquely qualified to compare the two. I suppose some people like to read more into what is actually said in the hope that that they can dance and laugh harder (falsely) when the subject of their ire fails to meet these imaginary heights.

          3. @asanator

            At least twice a week, there’s a new Red bull team member harping about Honda’s progress, their work ethic, thru superiority to Renault, best pre season ever Blah blah blah.

            I’m using ‘awesome’ as a metaphor for all the praise on Honda we hear at least 2 to 3 times a week.

            Let’s see what really happens once the season starts. My point is that there is no excuse for them if they are off the pace by a larger margin that they were at the end of last season.

        3. @todfod That you have chosen to put the word ‘awesome’ in Gasly’s mouth, and that you have said something such as ‘At some point of time the work should be finished.’ tells me that you have already decided RBR are sounding too cocky for your liking, and so you are poised to cut them a new one as soon as they have a problem, or aren’t beating Mercs.

          All F1 is a work in progress at all times, and nothing is ever ‘finished.’ I think you know that. And just because RBR had a Honda engine in the STR cars last year, doesn’t guarantee everything for RBR this year, their first year marrying the Pu to their chassis. What has year after year of Ferrari doing everything in house, with all their might, guaranteed them? Let’s not make it sound like the STR/Honda year last year gives RBR some sort of huge advantage this year, or guarantees of anything.

          We do agree, time will tell, but in the meantime they aren’t claiming they’ll be fighting for the Championships, and if they are claiming to be ahead of Renault, that’s fine by me…they may or may not be, but it certainly comes as no surprise that they would be talking up Honda now that they are full partners for (presumably) the long haul. If you want to take their words of hope and confidence in Honda as some sort of guarantee, or as just more running Renault into the ground, that’s your choice. I take it as them pumping up their team and forging ahead. We all know their ultimate target is Mercedes as the defending Champs, not Renault. We all know they weren’t going to win the Championships staying with Renault. I’ll be watching with patience as RBR grows into this new marriage.

          1. ‘At some point of time the work should be finished.’ tells me that you have already decided RBR are sounding too cocky for your liking, and so you are poised to cut them a new one as soon as they have a problem, or aren’t beating Mercs.

            @robbie

            Well.. you’ve gauged the situation wrong. I just find this PR praise of Honda’s capabilities nonsensical. It’s constant praise from every team member of the Red Bull every alternate day. So, if there’s any truth to these PR activities, they should be at the sharp end from race 1. That’s it.

            Let’s not make it sound like the STR/Honda year last year gives RBR some sort of huge advantage this year, or guarantees of anything.

            Well.. it does. They have more knowledge of Honda’s performance, reliability, integration etc. even before running the power unit in their own car. It is an advantage compared to other teams that run an engine for the first time. I mean.. what was the point of using your B team as a huge engine exercise for a whole season if you’re not going to gain anything….. Right?

            They’ve worked on their 2019 car early enough as well, so let’s not relegate this season to another “teething” year. It sounds like you’re ready to make the excuse for them even before the season has started.

            If you want to take their words of hope and confidence in Honda as some sort of guarantee, or as just more running Renault into the ground, that’s your choice.

            I would prefer less words and more results from the Red Bull squad. I’m tired of hearing of Honda’s tremendous progress since pre season testing last year… it’s absolute garbage… especially considering that Honda was the most unreliable and the slowest power unit on the grid at the end of 2018.

          2. @todfod See there’s where you start to lose me. ‘constant praise from every team member of the Red Bull every alternate day.’

            Really? I only ever come here, so perhaps you are seeing the same articles on various sites or something, but I have only heard from Horner, Marko, a little from Max and now a little from PG. If they are constantly being asked the same questions (and that’s predictable) then I guess it might appear there is constant praise, but otherwise I think there is only so much they can say right now, and praise of Honda is likely warranted and is natural for them at this stage in the marriage.

            So you’re concerned about some PR machine that to me doesn’t even seem to exist other than in your mind. It’s not like they’re bragging, or making bold and outlandish predictions right? They’re simply happy with where Honda has come since they joined STR last year. I think you just want to hear it as nonsensical bragging so you can run Marko and Horner into the ground or something.

            Of course it is a help to them that they had Honda pu’s in their STR cars last year. In terms of them (RBR) using it for the first time this year, they will have had an upper hand compared to other teams going cold turkey into a new marriage. But that does not make for a guarantee against all the teams already engrained with their Pus, and this is actually the first season of a Honda Pu married to an RBR car. So this season, if they have teething issues, it will not only be understandable since F1 is hard, but it is indeed a new chapter as RBR and Honda have not run a race together yet. This is not excuse making. This is just pointing out the reality of F1. Max has already said that as long as the Honda Pu is competitively powerful he won’t mind the odd blowup. Does that sound like overconfidence in their power and reliability? To me it sounds like something that makes sense. And something that shows they are prepared for some downs to go with what they hope will be more ups.

            And again, your last sentence…disingenuine. It is well known by now that we cannot know from their reliability last year as they took intentional penalties for the sake of R&D on the Honda Pu. As to slowness, let’s not forget the Pu was in an STR car, not a Merc, and in the first year of the marriage between STR and Honda at that.

            Bottom line for me, I’ve only heard something closer to understandable positivity about Honda from RBR, but certainly not this overhyping PR machine talk that you have invented which you claim that we have heard from all the RBR team members every alternate day. How is your exaggeration any better than that which you falsely accuse RBR of making?

          3. @robbie

            They’re simply happy with where Honda has come since they joined STR last year. I think you just want to hear it as nonsensical bragging so you can run Marko and Horner into the ground or something.

            It’s not bragging. I don’t think anyone in their right mind would brag with Honda power. I do find it ridiculous that they would sing constant praise without even having turned the engine up. For their own sake they should just put a lid on these statements. Mclaren called the Honda engine a diamond… and look at where that got them.

            And again, your last sentence…disingenuine. It is well known by now that we cannot know from their reliability last year as they took intentional penalties for the sake of R&D on the Honda Pu.

            You just choose to ignore facts whenever you feel like. What was the engine components used sheet like last year? At what point in time did Honda ever look better than Renault. If you start last and end last.. that’s barely progress.

            Dude.. we’ll be in this argument loophole forever. If it makes you happy… then you’re right.

          4. @todfod I’m sure they have turned the Pu up at least at their factory. And I’m sure they have to say something when asked by reporters. If that sounds like constant praising I just don’t know what else they can say right now. Should they just say no comment? Would that make you happy? And why are you ignoring the fact that there is a reason for the length of the components used list at STR? Why are you constantly trying to look at that list as some reality of an underpowered and unreliable car that has made no progress, when they have admitted they used STR/Honda last year to R&D the Pu. And they were never going to be focused on just putting the STR as high up on race day as possible just for the sake of the points when they had a bigger agenda in mind. You’re right we will be in this loop as long as you choose your own facts.

          5. You’re right we will be in this loop as long as you choose your own facts.

            @robbie

            Really now.. and what facts am I choosing in particular?

            Is it Honda’s bulletproof reliability record? Is it the fact that Gasly admitted that they haven’t run the power unit at the limit? Or am I choosing the fact that Toro Rosso was one giant Honda experiment for one season? Or am I choosing the fact that since Red Bull has signed Honda as an engine partner, there’s been a barrage of PR articles constantly talking about Honda’s progress and improvements?

            My whole point is that if Red Bull are heaping praise on Honda and are constantly reiterating their progress… then they should be on attack mode from race 1. They should be able to walk the talk. And I don’t think any of your teething theories or ready made excuses would change my opinion anyways. So why are we even arguing this?

      2. Given how STR and RBR both already claimed how their Honda engine was already on par with the Renault and then that it was already more powerfull, they really should be closer from the go this year @robbie, @todfod.

        Surely the testing Honda got done last year with STR and being able to continue with their concept for a third year in a row should have enabled them to make that improvement.

        Seems RBR also feels the pressure then to justify their choice already. Will be interesting to see how that goes when reality makes its mark.

        1. @bascb I’m not sure they are feeling pressure to justify their choice, for they made their choice for reasons that include that they were never going to win the Championships with Renault. Pressure would have been staying with Renault and floundering vs Merc and Ferrari. I think what we have at the moment is the start of a new marriage and hope and expectations and potential and all that comes with the unknown. Of course there will be those who, as soon as they have a dnf, will claim they should have stayed with Renault, but this is a work in progress, which is exactly what they will say the first time a reporter asks them if they wish they had stayed with Renault. Pressure? Just the normal kind that all teams feel I would think. But pressure to justify their Honda choice? No…we all saw why they needed to try something different.

          1. If they would not feel the pressure, they wouldn’t be fullout on the PR machine already @robbie.

            And they are, just look at the boatload of interviews, articles, statements and claims out there for last week, but also from the days preciding that. We’ve seen that from Ferrari ahead of seasons where they ultimately failed again but it also strongly reminds me of how McLaren praising their engine choice in recent years.

          2. @bascb Full out on the PR machine already? Boatload of interviews etc etc? Haven’t seen that myself, but I suppose they are being asked the same questions over and over by reporters. Of course they are going to praise Honda at this point. Express confidence etc etc. Are they boasting and bragging and being in peoples’ faces about how competitive they will be? Not that I have sensed. What have they said that is so abnormal for a team in their situation?

          3. Full out on the PR machine already? Boatload of interviews etc etc? Haven’t seen that myself,

            @robbie

            Surely you weren’t sleeping from the time Red Bull signed Honda as an engine partner. If you think there hasn’t been a massive inflow of positive PR on Honda’s performance over the past 6 months… they you’re just kidding yourself.

          4. @todfod I just think it is an exaggeration to claim some ‘massive’ PR campaign, and I see it as just normal talking up of a new partner, and a key and historical one at that. Of course they are going to speak positively about Honda, and from what we are to gather, they’ve made great strides. But that is all they are saying. They are not claiming they are now the benchmark, they have always said it is a work in progress, so what I reject is this notion that they have talked themselves into so much pressure to perform that the likes of you are going to slam them to the weeds the minute they have a dnf as having fallen flat on their face compared to what you purport they have claimed.

            They’ve only talked up Honda, naturally, and have made it clear that it is a work in progress, and that they don’t know what level the entire competition is at. There needs not be this piling on that I sense is coming from you. You make it sound like you expect perfection from them because they have said they are perfect, and that is of course ridiculous. The difference between you and I is that I have a reasonable expectation of what they will do this season, and will understand when they have a dnf, whereas you have convinced yourself that they have claimed they’ll be something more just because they have talked Honda up. Gasly says something like they haven’t even cranked it and he can already feel the improvement over last year, which to Honda and their fans as well as those of STR and RBR will be great to hear, and you take the negative side that his wording is fluff because they haven’t cranked the Pu to the max, therefore they don’t know. It wasn’t enough for you to hear that even held back the engine is better, meaning that even if they can’t crank it and be reliable, they could still run it at 90% and be in better shape than they were last year. But then of course you are taking this awkward stance because you still don’t believe that last year was an R&D year at STR, but rather than what we saw was the reality of Honda’s reliability and power. So you don’t believe them on that, and you don’t believe them now wrt Gasly’s words. That’s where we differ and why the discussion.

          5. @robbie

            I just think it is an exaggeration to claim some ‘massive’ PR campaign, and I see it as just normal talking up of a new partner, and a key and historical one at that.

            Within 10 minutes of your comment… there is another positive article from the Red Bull camp on Honda’s fantastic step forward – https://www.racefans.net/2019/02/26/toro-rosso-honda-made-a-fantastic-step-forward-in-12-months/

            Still think it’s an exaggeration?? Surely a ton of people on this site harping on about the excessive praise on Honda must have some justification? Unless we’re all wrong and we’re all exaggerating, and you’ve got some insight into this situation that no one else does.

            Gasly says something like they haven’t even cranked it and he can already feel the improvement over last year, which to Honda and their fans as well as those of STR and RBR will be great to hear, and you take the negative side that his wording is fluff because they haven’t cranked the Pu to the max, therefore they don’t know.

            No. I think the Red Bull stable should put a lid on their comments .. at least before they’ve cranked it up. If they’re so confident that they’ve made a step forward, then I look forward to seeing them fight for wins.

            I look forward to seeing them walk the talk. I’m not saying Honda is horrible.. I’m not discarding their statements as fluff. I remember a Renault engine at the back of a Red Bull last season was very very competitive, so I don’t see how a better power unit would make them move backwards. That’s it.

            I’m just hoping Red Bull validates their claims. I’m not hoping for them to fail. But I’m not ready to hear a bunch of cliche excuses after all this praise has been heaped on Honda either.

            It wasn’t enough for you to hear that even held back the engine is better, meaning that even if they can’t crank it and be reliable, they could still run it at 90% and be in better shape than they were last year.

            A Honda running at 90% is better than a Renault? Surely you can’t be serious. Maybe you shouldn’t read too much in to testing times.

            But then of course you are taking this awkward stance because you still don’t believe that last year was an R&D year at STR, but rather than what we saw was the reality of Honda’s reliability and power.

            Man.. they went through 9 to 10 power units on each car they were supplying. Not all of those were for the sake of R&D. A lot of them were replaced just to prevent the embarrassment of on track failure. I’m surprised you jumped on the Honda has made progress bandwagon, yet cannot put a single fact in your favour to show they have.

          6. @todfod Lol, wrt exaggeration, is it really a ‘ton’ of people ‘harping on’ about Honda praise? Or is it mainly you? You are the one overblowing the praise they have given about Honda. So you have set yourself up to expecting something that you have invented. They haven’t said they won’t have issues nor that they will dominate. They have said they have made strides. And when they do have a dnf, there is nothing they will be able to say that you won’t consider an excuse, because you have decided for yourself that their praise has been unreasonable, because of course you know more than them what has gone on behind closed doors. What facts do you have that can support your claims that they haven’t made strides? I can’t tell what they learned last year because that is amongst them. DR and FA for example, didn’t go through as many components, yet had more dnfs than Gasly.

            But they have said they have made strides, and I see no reason to disbelieve them, and we are seeing them complete mega laps in testing and are nearer the top of the times than the bottom. Contrast that with Mac’s first year of testing with Honda. Like I say, the real issue here is just that you have decided the Honda speak has not been to your liking, so you have exaggerated what they are actually saying, and therefore have a false expectation for their 2019 season, and therefore you will only be able to see anything they say as excuse making. They haven’t said anything unreasonable but you’ve decided they have, so what cliches will you be coming up with when they have an inevitable problem?

          7. @robbie

            Alright.. Whatever you say man.

          8. @todfod Right then…that was easy;)

  6. Without Mercedes and Ferrari, a documentary about the 2018 season can’t sound that exciting…

    I can’t say I disagree with their motives thought. Being in a title fight as tight as that one (until Seb crashed in Germany) needs all your effort and maybe having Netflix cameras around can distract you. If only it was enforced tho… Like TV interviews or whatever. They were able to say no, and maybe they shouldn’t have…

    1. On the other hand, the title fight played out during the season @fer-no65. Maybe focussing on the rest of the teams will prove to be a blessing in disguise, since we will be spared the hubris of a title fight in there.

  7. Red Bull is sounding very overconfident at the moment. If I were Honda, I’d be worried about the pendulum inevitably swinging back with Horner crying crocodile tears in the press, explaining how they went with Honda, because there were no other options; and how they regret “the current conditions of the sport are not very good foundation for sportsmanship”.

    Honda should have Cyril Abiteboul in a specifically titled mailinglist, you know, just in case.

    Come Albert Park if Red Bull Honda is as competitive as they were during the latter 1/3 of 2018, I would consider Honda’s efforts a success, if their PU lasts 5-6 races before finally giving up, even better.

    McLaren, however, is inevitably starting to look horrible after all this. It is starting to look like a Midfielder B-Team “ToroRosso” was able to do in just one season what Mclaren failed to achieve in 3 years: Lay the ground work for Honda to produce capable engines, and then proceed to work on performance and reliability. Latter half of 2018 Toro Rosso was looking like they had a very capable package, I don’t think it’s wrong to assume that they have only improved on it.

    Massive respect for everyone at Toro Rosso, incredible work! In many ways, they achieved something special, on par with a championship IMO.
    Shame on you Mclaren, with your racing pedigree and engineering prowess, you should have been able to do better.

    All said and done, it makes me feel really sad to see just how far McLaren have dropped, and I don’t just mean laptimes, the laptimes are just a symptom.

    1. Cranberry, mind you, the way that Toro Rosso has been structured for a number of years is essentially to provide a service to the parent team – it’s really all that is left for the team to do these days.

      Whilst the focus has been on the drivers, there have been a number of engineers whom Red Bull have moved from Toro Rosso into the works team – a process that is made easier by the fact that most of Toro Rosso’s staff work at Red Bull Technologies, even if the recent relaxations on the parts that can be transferred between teams means that Red Bull can rely more on shipping parts to them and have less of a need to train up staff at Toro Rosso.

  8. Probably a bit to much spin / hype coming out of the RB camp. So far they have not put the laps into practice that the other front runners have done leaving it to Torro Rosso. Also their times are down at this stage. This week will see if they can pick up the pace.

  9. In the end, it was the right of Mercedes and Ferrari to opt against taking part in the upcoming Netflix documentary. If something isn’t obligatory, why shouldn’t a team then be allowed to opt against taking part in it?

    I thoroughly agree with the COTD.

    As always, I’ll reserve my judgment until at least qualifying day in Australia. Too early to jump to definite conclusions on the pecking order since no one’s pushed for performance yet.

  10. “Drive to Survive” is a fitting title especially considering Mercedes and Ferrari aren’t participating as that is exactly what F1 is all about for every other team.

  11. RBR will leave F1 if it doesn’t work with Honda. It’s going to be their last try.

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