Hamilton’s “incredible” success is hard to compare with Schumacher’s – Vettel

62 comments on “Hamilton’s “incredible” success is hard to compare with Schumacher’s – Vettel”

1. 

   @HoHum (@hohum)
   8th November 2019, 1:49

   G O A T ? I think Lewis is a serious contender, BUT, we can never ever count out those drivers that shone in earlier years before death or injury cut their careers short, think Senna, Clark, Moss, etc.
   1. 

      hobo (@hobo)
      8th November 2019, 15:04

      @hohum – I think the GOAT label in any sport is impossible. What was once a barroom debate is now just used for pageviews online. Things change so much in a decade, let alone three or five, that comparisons don’t make sense.

      But HAM is certainly in the pantheon, is THE driver of the 2010s, and is in the discussion of all timers—as you note.
   2. 

      Todfod (@todfod)
      8th November 2019, 16:16

      @hobo

      Don’t know about Moss in that list.. But I would already put Hamilton in the Clark, Senna, Fangio, Schumacher league.

      If Lewis gets paired up against Verstappen or Leclerc in the near future and beats either of them to a title, he would go down as the Goat in my books…. Doubt those pairings will ever happen though.
      1. 

         GnosticBrian (@gnosticbrian)
         8th November 2019, 17:46

         When Fangio and Moss drove for Mercedes Benz, Moss was usually a few feet behind the maestro. The racing manager, the great Alfred Neubauer, is reputed to have told Moss: “Don’t drive so close; if Fangio makes a mistake, both cars are out”.

         Moss replied: “Fangio never makes mistakes”.

         After a few moments reflection, Neubauer replied: “You are right Herr Moss”; walked away and Moss continued to follow a few feet behind.

         Fangio was a consumate driver in so many diffent categories. I have never heard of him pulling any dodgy moves that are a characteristic of so many modern drivers.
         1. 

            Robbie (@robbie)
            9th November 2019, 15:08

            It’s a personal thing of course. There will never be complete consensus on who is/was the greatest. For me the drivers ‘in the running’ do not include MS and LH. MS had too many advantages hand over fist over the competition, which normally might be just the way it goes sometimes, but in his case was orchestrated by the very people running F1, Max Mosley and BE.

            In LH’s case the majority of his WDCs have come when F1 has been F1 lite…lift and coast…conserve conserve conserve…tell me what lap times I need to run…you can’t pass in these cars…drs…etc etc.

            For me it is about what feats the drivers are achieving, not what numbers they are achieving. I think most would agree, since drivers with far fewer WDCs than MS and LH are ‘in the running’ for goat. Another thing I ‘look for’ is how the drivers have affected my. LH nor MS have never inspired me, in spite of their numbers. My inspirations have come from Gilles, Ayrton, Jacques, and now Max. These are the drivers that have drawn me in like no others.

            It is my sincere hope that the new regs for 2021 start to take F1 back away from being F1-lite. The drivers I can admire much more are the ones who have/had much more responsibility on their hands wrt figuring out on the fly tire conservation, lap speeds etc etc. and even if that isn’t about to happen at least let’s see some actual non-drs influenced F1 where all passes are genuine and hard-fought, including the return of the art of defending. All hopefully on tires that aren’t a joke and are no longer the overwhelming story but rather something they can just go out on and push themselves and their cars to the limit for at least half a stint.
            1. 

               Eric (@mustang)
               9th November 2019, 17:10

               Weird how those lap record times get set.
2. 

   joac21 (@joac21)
   8th November 2019, 2:10

   The more time passes the more is clear for me that Sebastian Vettel Will never stop Hamilton winning another championship unless he has a clear car advantage..
   1. 

      The Dolphins
      8th November 2019, 3:07

      They’re working on it but Red Bull are spoiling it for them.
      1. 

         Chaitanya
         8th November 2019, 3:38

         😂
   2. 

      F1oSaurus (@)
      8th November 2019, 7:38

      @joac21 Vettel actual had a clear car advantage in 2018. Yet he made that car look weak by blundering 9 times throughout the season.
      1. 

         magon4 (@magon4)
         8th November 2019, 17:01

         oh boy once again…
         1. 

            F1oSaurus (@)
            10th November 2019, 9:06

            @magon4 Yes it remains true. What’s your problem with facts?
            1. 

               magon4 (@magon4)
               10th November 2019, 9:42

               it’s simply not a fact.
      2. 

         Mitch
         8th November 2019, 23:15

         Yup that clear car advantage was so great ferrari easily won the constructors championship even with Hamilton having his early season slump again that year, oh wait…….wrong team
         1. 

            F1oSaurus (@)
            10th November 2019, 9:06

            Well Ferrari is a one car team. They threw Raikonen under the bus in an effort aid Vettel in most of the races
            1. 

               magon4 (@magon4)
               10th November 2019, 9:44

               i think i’ll stop answering your comments after this one.
               a shame, actually. it’s nice discussing f1, but one has to be a little bit objective for the fun of it not to evaporate…
3. 

   BOSS
   8th November 2019, 3:05

   I am a Lewis Hamilton fan but I still respect Sebastien Vettel. He is a gentleman. They both are great sportmen in their own rights. There are some truth in what he has just said. We could only judge them if they are in equal machinery in the same team which is very unlikely though . Wish them both well.
   1. 

      F1oSaurus (@)
      8th November 2019, 7:40

      Vettel is a lot of things, but gentleman he clearly is not. He can act nice when interviewed yes, but that’s not the same.

      Cursing like a sailor blaming everybody for his own failures. Then all smiles in front of the camera. Yeah right, that’s very gentlemanly.
      1. 

         Matteo (@m-bagattini)
         8th November 2019, 8:39

         > Cursing like a sailor blaming everybody for his own failures

         I fear I missed that part
         1. 

            MEGATRON M12 (@megatron)
            8th November 2019, 11:50

            Fook you charlie
      2. 

         Pironi the Provocateur (@pironitheprovocateur)
         8th November 2019, 8:47

         Well then, if it’s true, let’s also mention the negative side of Lewis Hamilton’s personality – cannot stand behind his word, his engagement in the social and environmental questions is just an empty and sterile pose, he’s none the better when sitting behind the steering wheel – complaining, creating fake dramas etc. Would you call him a coward? I wouldn’t, everyone has a whole lot of personality flaws.

         Just to bring some balance to your comment.
         1. 

            paulipedia (@paulipedia)
            8th November 2019, 10:46

            That’s very subjective. The points on Vettel are fact
      3. 

         David BR (@david-br)
         8th November 2019, 10:22

         @f1osaurus @pironitheprovocateur I think you’re both talking about ‘stress management’ while on track. It’s a mistake to classify either as a ‘personality issue’, I’m no fan of Vettel’s driving a lot of the time, but I get that his way of dealing with stress during races is outward aggression, whether swiping at other drivers or cursing the race director. Sometimes that aggression is dangerous, often counter-productive, causing damage to his own race, or ‘productive’ when he gets angry and fans connect – like his theatrics after the Canada penalty. But I’m not sure you can say that’s what he’s ‘really like.’ Same goes in an opposite sense for Lewis. He shows inward aggression, becoming despondent and negative about his chances (‘moaning’) but it’s part of a process his team have learnt to lure him out of. That seems to be that he needs to be chasing a win and ‘positive’ the whole time, if the race seems pointless, he’s probably already unfocusing and jumping ahead to the next race. So the team coaxes him to keep focusing, it’s not that bad, some points or even a win are still possible. Again, a personality flaw? In both cases, highly talented and motivated drivers (10 world championships between them!) who outperform most others by channeling extra determination. That has its own wayward psychological dynamic.
         1. 

            Joao (@johnmilk)
            8th November 2019, 12:42

            @david-br you have made a huge mistake, bringing reason and clarity of thinking to a low level argument

            I appreacite you, but I fear for you
            1. 

               erikje
               8th November 2019, 16:46

               That points to a very onesided view and colored reading by you. Nothing new, but it seems to hinder you absorbing new views.
            2. 

               Joao (@johnmilk)
               8th November 2019, 18:28

               Not a sponge, sorry I guess
         2. 

            Phylyp (@phylyp)
            8th November 2019, 12:52

            @david-br – very nice explanations about how both drivers channel their emotions, and a nice explanation of how Mercedes have learnt to harness Hamilton’s negativity in a productive direction, as well.
         3. 

            hobo (@hobo)
            8th November 2019, 15:12

            @david-br – I think I can agree that defining someone by their most stressful moments probably isn’t the best. However, this is their job. It’s not like you or I are thrown into an F1 car with no training and our life depends on it. These are pampered millionaires whose every need is catered to. They are the richest of the rich for playing a game every other weekend. They have the skill and talent to drive and manage a race. So, I do think it is fair to take into account their less great moments. In addition, doing something unsporting or horrible is as much of “who they are” just as much as doing something nice is. They don’t get a freebie because they are racing.

            That said, a foul word here or there in the heat of the moment is not a scarlet letter on Vettel, in my opinion. The hitting Hamilton’s car during a race because he didn’t like Hamilton’s braking, is. Just like MSC will never be viewed as a clean WDC because of his antics in a few races spread throughout his career, neither will Vettel.
            1. 

               hobo (@hobo)
               8th November 2019, 15:13

               To be clear I am referring to Vettel deliberately hitting Hamilton during the safety car period at Baku. Not a racing incident at speed where they happened to touch.
      4. 

         Ajaxn
         9th November 2019, 16:08

         Gentlemen drivers dont repeatedly seek to drive into other drivers. Vettel has done this far too often to be considered a Gentleman.

         Luckily his attempt in Canada was unsuccesful and resulted in him being penalised for unsafe driving.
   2. 

      Todfod (@todfod)
      8th November 2019, 16:19

      We could only judge them if they are in equal machinery in the same team which is very unlikely though

      You don’t really need equal machinery to draw every conclusion. It’s not like we argue whether Hamilton is better than Perez because they haven’t raced in the se machinery.

      I think over the past 5 to 6 seasons, it’s been pretty apparent that Lewis is a league (or two) above Vettel.
      1. 

         magon4 (@magon4)
         8th November 2019, 17:08

         @todfod I think it is fair(er) to say that over the past 3 seasons, Lewis has stepped up to a level above Vettel.

         Vettel and Hamilton were on the same level of greatness around 2015 or 2016.
         1. 

            F1oSaurus (@)
            10th November 2019, 9:16

            @magon4 So Vettel was annihilated by Ricciardo in 2014 and suddenly lept back up to greatness in 2015. Just because he beat Raikkonen in 2015? With a much smaller margin than Alonso had beaten Raikkonen before! And then he crashed again when Leclerc joined Ferrari?

            Or … just thinkig … perhaps Vettel has been the same all along. A decent driver in a fast car. Vettel is clearly only “great” when hes’s being compared to a weak team mate and driving a fast(est) car.
            1. 

               magon4 (@magon4)
               10th November 2019, 9:41

               Agree to disagree. A lot can be said about motiviation issues after 4 WDCs, a car not able to compete for race wins regularly and many years with Red Bull, no?
               Or do you think Grosjean is incredibly bad, following your logic on Kimi. Or Felipe Massa for that matter. Or other team mates Kimi beat? @f1osaurus
      2. 

         Todfod (@todfod)
         8th November 2019, 17:19

         @magon4

         Hmm… You’re half right. In 2015, Vettel was really strong… Maybe an equally competitive season to Lewis that year. In 2016, I’ll have to disagree. I actually rate Kimi higher than Vettel that season. Kimi finished just a handful of point behind Vettel and that was mostly due to just bad luck and #2 driver treatment.

         Come to think of it 2016 wasn’t the greatest season for either driver
         1. 

            magon4 (@magon4)
            8th November 2019, 17:26

            I get that @todfod but I wasn’t going season by season. I was looking big picture.
            Lewis has become one of the Top 5, 6 since stepping it up in 2017, while Vettel has struggled to stay on his former level.
            But up to then, they would and should be mentioned in the same sentence. Since then, no.

            Vettel could get back into the conversation if he beat Hamilton in 2020, but I don’t see that happening. Part of me hopes he can give him a fight, though – I think it could and would be great for the sport.
         2. 

            F1oSaurus (@)
            10th November 2019, 9:10

            @todfod Hamilton was actually amazing in 2016. It was bizarre how he could keep up with Rosberg desptite having all the issues he had.

            In Bahrain Hamilton got punted off by Bottas at turn 1. Dropped back to P9 and made it back to P3
            An ERS failure at the start of qualifying in China, relegating him to 22nd on the grid. He finished seventh.
            An ERS failure during Q3 in Russia, restricting the Mercedes driver to 10th on the grid. He finished second.
            An engine mode issue during the European GP. He finished fifth having started in 10th following a crash in qualifying.
            Hamilton had used all 5 of his season engine allocation by the mid way point Race 12 Spa, forcing him to start from 22nd on the grid, finished 3rd
            A hydraulics fault during Practice Two in Singapore which was cited as a critical factor in his defeat to Rosberg. He finished third.
            An engine blow-out in Malaysia which cost him an almost-certain victory.

            (quotes copied here and there)
            1. 

               magon4 (@magon4)
               10th November 2019, 9:42

               Nico had much less issues, but he had some.
               Lewis was better, but not by the margin you are suggesting.
   3. 

      GnosticBrian (@gnosticbrian)
      8th November 2019, 17:51

      Boss – “I am a Lewis Hamilton fan but I still respect Sebastien Vettel. He is a gentleman. They both are great sportmen in their own rights”.

      “Multi-21 Seb”!!!!
      1. 

         Marcin Jędrzejczak
         8th November 2019, 23:33

         Sochi Russia 2018!!! Bahrain 2017! I am not a Lewis Hamilton fan, neither Seb but I appreciate the first for his skills and the Christianity show “Still I Rise” in Abu Dhabi last year. LH has won the last 5 World Champion title by Mercedes advantage not only his own skills. Just look his last/past McLaren 5 years = 21 wins, 1 WDC, and then with Mercedes… you see +60, 5 WDC
4. 

   Jay Menon (@jaymenon10)
   8th November 2019, 4:41

   This whole Lewis GOAT debate is wearing a bit thin. Can we just agree and move on? Haha.

   Its never going to be a clear one is it? And its pointless.
   1. 

      paulipedia (@paulipedia)
      8th November 2019, 10:46

      No
   2. 

      frood19 (@frood19)
      8th November 2019, 11:37

      – “I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree”

      – “I don’t agree to that”
   3. 

      David BR (@david-br)
      8th November 2019, 11:56

      @jaymenon10 I agree pre-1980s. Comparison is almost pointless between these eras. From Senna/Prost/Mansell on, the comparisons become more plausible. But you’re right the debates will be endless. Until and when Hamilton wins 9+ titles and, yeah, the debate then is pretty much over. :o)
      1. 

         anon
         8th November 2019, 18:10

         @david-br, even then, I would say that the debate is rather skewed by a lot of factors.

         For example, in the early 1990s, the introduction of electronic aids, such as traction control, or active suspension systems, introduced large gulfs in performance between cars. Although Senna’s drive in the 1993 European GP is often lauded, I believe that Senna himself rather downplayed it – he pointed out that he probably had the second most advanced car on the grid after Williams, and therefore questioned how much was down to him and how much was just a reflection of McLaren’s technological superiority over most of the other teams on the grid.

         If, even within an era, there is still considerable debate about how much of an influence the car had on driver performances, how much more complex does that then become when you try to compare across multiple different eras?
         1. 

            Robbie (@robbie)
            9th November 2019, 15:12

            @anon And tying that in, this hybrid era has been more like F1-lite, so I don’t find the drivers to be achieving great feats these days. That should change in 2021 and while that will still not be like when drivers had much more of the decision making to do on their own and on the fly, at least the positions and wins and WDCs should be harder fought and won or lost.
   4. 

      hobo (@hobo)
      8th November 2019, 15:16

      @jaymenon10 – Exactly. There are greats of different eras. Some of those eras are 10yrs long, some maybe 15yrs. But they are all but impossible to compare across time.

      I don’t think comparisons get any easier in recent times, @david-br. Just my opinion.
5. 

   Phylyp (@phylyp)
   8th November 2019, 4:44

   I propose a new term, one that has no caprine connotations: GOCT, a. k. a. greatest of contemporary times.
   1. 

      bosyber (@bosyber)
      8th November 2019, 5:41

      Very sensible @phylyp, and I am sure it will stop many heated debates. Wait, no, not emotive enough, won’t catch, sorry :)
   2. 

      Matteo (@m-bagattini)
      8th November 2019, 8:42

      GOARAOT maybe @phylyp, greatest of a reasonable amount of time?
      1. 

         Phylyp (@phylyp)
         8th November 2019, 9:14

         @bosyber – yes, I forsee a fate similar to that of Betamax for GOCT. It’s always the best ones that are ignored :-)

         @m-bagattini – I wish that were an actual word, it’d have helped in my Scrabble game earlier today ;-)
         1. 

            frood19 (@frood19)
            8th November 2019, 11:39

            @phylyp pretty tricky letters. you could have had ARGOT maybe, if it fitted anywhere.

            GOARAOT
            1. 

               Phylyp (@phylyp)
               9th November 2019, 2:13

               @frood19 – cheers 👍
      2. 

         chris (@)
         9th November 2019, 0:41

         @m-bagattini @phylyp @frood19

         How about Greatest Of The Era, pronounced as goatee
         1. 

            Phylyp (@phylyp)
            9th November 2019, 2:12

            @9chris9 – very nice, I can get behind that.
6. 

   Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
   8th November 2019, 6:30

   Can’t agree with cotd, the after taste is what could have mclaren achieved with a top driver, I think overall the team made little mistakes and so did the drivers, reliability wasn’t perfect but it is not any worse than their competitors. Everyone can what if, though definitely the car is good and sainz has an avg track record.
7. 

   Initially
   8th November 2019, 6:47

   Really agree with the notion that it’s more rare to see Lewis make a major mistake than his rivals in combat. Definitely admirable his car control and sense of limits. BUT, not to sound like a hater or anything, it does help having the best car in the field. You don’t need to push it as hard and it handles better. Mercedes have produced the best race car this year again. Easy to see by just looking at Bottas. He’s not on Max or Seb’s level but still easily there.
   With all that said, I still almost always feel Hamilton will be the last man standing in a battle. He’s really good
8. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   8th November 2019, 7:41

   Yes, comparing different eras indeed is hard as things have changed a lot over time, not only the machinery itself but everything around as well but a great achievement nevertheless.

   An interesting post by Chris Medland in the Racer-article and I share the same sentiments in principal.

   I also agree with the COTD.

   ”if I will be replacing Robert Kubica.”
   – Unrealistic indeed, as Nicholas Latifi is the most likely candidate for the remaining Williams-drive, depending on his super license-situation.
9. 

   JohnH (@johnrkh)
   8th November 2019, 8:52

   At the moments when direct driver skill against each other is highlighted, Hamilton so often pushes close to the limit but not over it, keeps it clean and comes out on top.

   As I said a little while ago about Mercedes being able to have enough in hand to cover a mistake and still manage a good result. Hamilton fits into the Merc system, they compliment each other. Resulting in the steamroller effect on the rest of the field in the first half of the season. By the time the others caught up it was to late.
   Fingers crossed next yr will be closer.
10. 

    Hugh (@hugh11)
    8th November 2019, 11:46

    I really hope Chadwick is able to sort out an F3 drive next year, alongside the W-Series drive. Maybe if she’s not fighting for the championship in F3, if there’s ever a crossover event, she can just do W-Series, but the rest of the time, race in F3. I feel like that needs to happen to prove to people that W-Series deserves the superlicense points it’s granting and show that the series is filled with competitive drivers who can do well elsewhere if given the opportunity. Hopefully W-Series or someone will fund her for a seat.
11. 

    Hadzhiev (@hadzhiev)
    8th November 2019, 18:48

    Completely agree with Seb.
12. 

    Carlos Medrano (@carlosmedrano)
    9th November 2019, 0:32

    Vettel is just buthurt Hamilton is the one being compared to Michael

Comments are closed.