One Ferrari driver should accept blame for clash – Brawn

2019 Brazilian Grand Prix

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One of the Ferrari drivers involved in the crash which wiped both cars out of yesterday’s race, according to Formula 1 motorsport director Ross Brawn.

He refused to blame either Sebastian Vettel or Charles Leclerc for their lap 66 collision. But he compared them to the example of Lewis Hamilton, who immediately took blame for his clash with Alexander Albon later in the race.

“I wouldn’t want to venture an opinion on who was most at fault for the collision,” said Brawn after the race. “But in the cold light of day, maybe it would be good if one of them will follow Hamilton’s example and immediately admit culpability, as the champion did regarding his clash with Albon.”

The stewards ruled neither driver was wholly responsible for the collision.

The former Ferrari technical director said the fact neither Ferrari driver was in contention for the win made the collision more galling frustrating for the team.

“It’s never nice when team mates knock one another out of a race, even more so when it’s not even a particularly important result that goes begging, as in this case, third place in Brazil was the most they could aspire to.”

It now falls to team principal Mattia Binotto to restore order, said Brawn.

“After tensions flared in the races following the summer break, everything seemed to have calmed down in the Ferrari dressing room. But now, Mattia Binotto faces the tough task of getting things back on track and indeed he said just that in his interviews after the race.

“He had to get stuck in and tell the drivers to face up to their responsibilities, which in Maranello always means putting the interests of the team ahead of those of the individual, which was not the case in yesterday’s race.”

“If Ferrari really wants to put an end to Mercedes’ dominance, not only does it need to provide its drivers with a more competitive car next year, it must also ensure that incidents like this one are not repeated,” Brawn added. “Formula 1 is a team sport, especially so in Maranello.”

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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53 comments on “One Ferrari driver should accept blame for clash – Brawn”

  1. I think you’re missing something in the first paragraph there, but I agree that Vettel – sorry – one of the Ferrari drivers should take the blame!

    1. Yeah one of the Ferrari drivers – sorry i mean Vettel.

    2. Pat Ruadh (@fullcoursecaution)
      19th November 2019, 8:00

      At least one of the Ferrari Vettels

    3. One of the Sebs should definitely take responsibility

      1. Yeah, one of the 4-time champions must behave like a man and say he was to blame for the clash.

  2. It was Vettel’s fault for moving towards his teammate in a straight line which caused the contact.

    Turkey 2010 2.0.

    1. Yep, there’s not much to say about it. it was a poor decision by the stewards. although the move he made was small, it was enough to cause a crash (at ~300kph!), so vettel is clearly at fault. i wonder if they let it slide because both cars were out and it had little bearing on the WCC – if they did then that is an awful approach. i was disgusted when grosjean got banned after spa 2012, not because he wasn’t at fault for the big shunt, but because the stewards explicitly said his punishment was based on the fact he took out a title contender (alonso) – an absolute farce. all drivers should be treated the same regardless of their position in the championship. i really lost a lot of respect from the sport after that decision, so i hope nothing like that is going on here.

      1. @frood19 Vettel didn’t get a penalty for Turkey 2010 either. The stewards really don’t penalize intro team crashes. Unless it’s really something bad (ie Alonso blocking the McLaren pit)

    2. Absolutely! And I was there to see it happen! Wish they would race in Turkey again!

      1. One of the best F1 Tracs ever made!

  3. Vettel, so indignant on the radio, “how could this have possibly been my fault?”. I’m sure he’s looked at the replay and figured out what happened – further SV misdirection forthcoming.

  4. That Vettel and Leclerc would come to this point was perhaps just a matter of time. Now they’ve done it, embarrassing themselves and the team, and it is up to Mattia Binotto to make sure that order is restored and maintained. What I found more interesting than the collision itself was the fact how those cars disintegrated after what seemed to be fairly light contact. This after Vettel’s suspension failure in Austin. Ferrari definitely found some extra speed after the summer break, but I wonder whether it might have come at an expense of more fragile cars?

    1. Binotto is not an assertive team principal unlike his predecessor.

    2. What I found more interesting than the collision itself was the fact how those cars disintegrated after what seemed to be fairly light contact

      I keep seeing this bandied about and can only assume each person who says it has absolutely no concept of kinetic forces at 200mph as opposed to the wheeel to wheel contact cars regularly make at 50-70mpg in turns.

      Spoiler alert, it’s a hell of a lot more.

  5. Ferrari really needs a team principal who both in practice and in reality has the final say on things. But what they have is a person who will endlessly listen his driver second guess him. On one level you could say ross brawn always played favourites and was always company man first but you can not say you were never in any doubt what he wanted. And what he wanted usually happened. There was never any kind of maybe I do this, maybe he does that from the drivers. He tells you how it is going to be. He makes the decisions and takes the blame if he gets it wrong. At ferrari everybody are making decisions but nobody takes the blame.

    First they said leclerc was going to play second fiddle to vettel. Then couple of races in nobody knew what was going anymore. It seemed to be on case by cases basis. Or was it? Does ferrari even know what they want from their drivers? If they want to score points for ferrari as constructor then obviously it is not working. If they want to get the best result from each race regardless who finishes a head it is not working. If they want to support their number 1 driver more they have failed at that too.

    Vettel gets a lot of flak and deservedly so. But imagine being vettel going into this season and being told you are number 1 at ferrari and that new guy is your wing man. Then after couple of races it is suddenly “whatever happens”. Sure leclerc drove better but if you make a decision and then change things you need to make another decision. From vettel’s perspective leclerc simply drove better and stole the number 1 status away from him. Maybe vettel thinks he can steal it back by finishing ahead. And looking at the mismanagement at ferrari during this year I think he is right. In which order the cars finish should be binotto’s call. Not the drivers’ call. If ferrari wants vettel as their number 1 driver then they need to tell leclerc about it. If they want to make leclerc their number 1 driver they need to tell vettel about it. If it is about points, good finishes or contructor points the drivers need to be told about it. The race goals can not be decided after the race has happened.

    1. @socksolid

      Vettel gets a lot of flak and deservedly so. But imagine being vettel going into this season and being told you are number 1 at ferrari and that new guy is your wing man. Then after couple of races it is suddenly “whatever happens”.

      To be fair… you have to earn that #1 driver status. You cannot expect it to be gifted to you. Alonso and Schumacher were such phenomenal competitors that there was no doubt about giving them undisputed #1 driver status. They delivered the goods.. and they outperformed their #2 drivers in almost every race weekend in a year. If the team even had a sniff at the championship, those drivers were there fighting till the very end.

      Now.. let’s focus on Vettel for a second. He’s proven he isn’t in the same league as Alonso or Schumacher. In 2017, he could have taken the championship fight down to the wire, but failed to do so, and in 2018 he threw away a championship in the fastest car on the grid that year.

      Leclerc was brought in the team just because Ferrari didn’t have enough faith in Vettel’s abilities to deliver the title, and their decision was completely justified looking at Vettel’s performances. If Vettel had any common sense, or respect for the team, he would not have asked for #1 status, but instead, he would have raced his teammate on equal terms and actually earned that #1 driver status. Instead, Vettel took team orders from race 1 favouring him over Leclerc. The first 4 out 5 races that year saw decisions go against Leclerc to favour Vettel. At no point in time did Vettel ever look like a convincing #1 driver. Instead, Leclerc just kept getting stronger and stronger and looked like taking race wins much more convincingly than Vettel. Leclerc was the better driver on every front… there’s no doubt about that. He is the Ferrari #1 driver.

      But you can’t blame Vettel for this predicament. This is Ferrari’s mistake. If they believe in the one rooster philosophy, then they should really be looking for a compliant #2 driver for next season. Either Vettel’s contract gets amended for him to play wingman to the Leclerc, or he exits the team. It’s a simple solution.

      1. My point was that ferrari made it clear before the season that vettel was their number 1 driver. I never said anything about whether he earned or deserved it or not. It was to prove that ferrari simply has managed that situation poorly. They made their decision too early to make vettel their number 1 and then kind of backtracked by allowing them to race but kinda not allowing them to race. What is their strategy with their drivers now? Nobody knows. Themselves the least. After each race they pretend everything went according to plan but before the race I think everybody had their own plan. Binotto had one, vettel had one, leclerc had one and then after the race they all sort of had one before the race and another after the race…

        1. To be fair to Ferrari.. they mentioned in pre season testing that they would favour Vettel over Leclerc in 50-50 situations early on in the season. They did favour Vettel for the first half of the season over Leclerc… and then Leclerc proved himself to be the superior driver.

          I don’t see how Vettel has anyone else but himself to blame for this. Ferrari stuck to their end of the deal and Vettel just proved for the 3rd season in a row that he isn’t good enough. With Leclerc, they now have a driver in the calibre of Verstappen and Hamilton, who takes the fight to them each race weekend. Vettel on the other hand has already proved to the world that he isn’t as good as either Verstappen or Hamilton, and instead of being a good team player, he throws his toys out of the pram and starts wrecking the team’s results.

          I don’t know how you can empathise with Vettel’s situation at all. I’m actually surprised Ferrari hasn’t ended his contract early. If he isn’t good enough to challenge for championships, and he isn’t good enough to be a team player, he really has no place in a top team.

          1. The best quote about Sebastian Vettel: “I’m actually surprised Ferrari hasn’t ended his contract early. If he isn’t good enough to challenge for championships, and he isn’t good enough to be a team player, he really has no place in a top team.” Perfectly said, Mr. Todfod!

          2. I can empathize with vettel’s situation because ferrari is managing the situation so poorly. Vettel needs to be told to do as they say. Binotto needs to grow some round objects and take control of this mess. Vettel keeps doing this stuff because he can and because he gets away with it every time. It is binotto’s job to put an end to it and he just doesn’t do it. What does binotto do? They are going to have another “talk”. Will vettel change? No, why should he. If they come out of the “talk” with some racing incident bs then it is yet another confirmation for vettel that he did nothing wrong.

          3. Totally agree. Seb is and has shown a lack of control over his temper. It is time for him to go before he does perhaps a damage that will haunt him forever.

      2. @todfod FA and MS blew Championship seasons that should have been their’s too. You cite 2017 and 2018 as blown seasons by SV while ignoring the unreliability and poor strategies he had. If LH can have lost 2016 to Nico by one dnf by many people’s rhetoric, forgetting his numerous blown starts, then why is 2017 and 2018 all on SV and not also on untimely unreliability?

        SV did earn his number one status at Ferrari by going there with 4 WDCs. Ferrari welcomed him with open arms, coming from RBR, and as the proven entity of course would get the nod over CL initially. I would have preferred no talk of number one and two but that is generally not the Ferrari way, and they certainly were not going to immediately promote CL to number one over SV.

        Not sure how you know they hired CL ‘just because’ they had no faith in SV’s ability to deliver the title. The guy is a 4 time WDC. ‘Just because’ you don’t like him or have faith in him does not mean the one’s who hired him don’t respect his titles. And how do you know SV asked for number one status? Perhaps it was just bestowed upon him because…you know…that’s how Ferrari rolls, and because the 4 titles thing. Vettel ‘took’ team orders out of lack of respect or common sense in race one? Name a driver that would decline that or has done so.

        So here you are blaming SV on several fronts, only then to say it’s not his fault, it’s Ferrari’s? You know Leclerc has made mistakes too right? He has everything to prove yet about actually going head to head in a WDC fight and dealing with that pressure. As if it would be simple to just amend SV’s contract. Is it even in their contracts as to status on the team? I doubt it. This isn’t MS/Ferrari.

        So, what you suggest as a ‘simple solution’ is actually far from reality. I would say a better solution is that next year there is no status, and no team orders until it might become prudent near the end of the season if one driver has a title shot and the other doesn’t, at which point an order that one driver not take points from the one with the shot should not even be needed. Their only instruction should be that for the times when they are literally racing together on the track, they keep it civil. Yup at times that can create friction and uncomfortableness on the team…but at least the hundreds of millions of paying fans aren’t robbed of racing in the pinnacle of racing via a contract.

        1. @robbie

          There are ton of things I don’t agree with in your post. I just don’t have the time to rebut most of those statements. The one that stood out though was –

          So, what you suggest as a ‘simple solution’ is actually far from reality. I would say a better solution is that next year there is no status, and no team orders until it might become prudent near the end of the season if one driver has a title shot and the other doesn’t, at which point an order that one driver not take points from the one with the shot should not even be needed.

          That isn’t even a solution. Your advice to Ferrari for next season is for them to repeat a Brazil 2019 type ‘free to race each other’ philosophy for most of the season. Yeah… Right… Best of luck with that solution Einstein.

          Even after a driver emerges as a championship contender… Let’s take Lecerlc (as it seems more likely), do you actually think Vettel will play compliant #2 driver? Don’t kid yourself. That kid would throw the toys straight out of his pram right on to Binotto’s head.

          You might not agree with my solution… being an ardent and blind supporter of Vettel.. But the truth is he isn’t good enough to win a title unless he’s in a dominant car with a washed up driver in that 2nd seat. He hasn’t looked like championship contender material since 2013 and he isn’t getting any better. He’s definitely not the future at Ferrari.. And he’s not helping the team atmosphere.

          It’s a no brainer that he’s going to be out of Ferrari in no time. I just wish Ferrari wouldn’t waste another season with him and instead draft someone compatible starting next season itself.

          1. @todtod No I actually said they should have no team orders and be allowed to race it out but when they are racing each other keep it civil. That’s pretty much what happened at LH/NR/Mercedes and sometimes it was uncomfortable and they didn’t keep it civil but the ‘penalty’ for that was simply to keep reminding them to keep it civil, and at least we the paying audience got genuine racing out of it. Thank you Toto Wolff.

            It’s not like it was ‘Brazil 2019’ for LH/NR all season long, but in your mind you seem to think it would be that way at Ferrari. I’m called ‘Einstein’ for suggesting the same thing we saw at Mercedes for several years? I guess you would have just taken the racing out of it and designated that NR not race LH and rather we would have just had a repeat of the boring and predictable MS/Ferrari era of non-racing?

            In my scenario, if CL was the one with the WDC shot and SV not, SV absolutely would not stand in his way. That does not have to mean playing a number 2 and actually being his rear gunner like MS had. It can simply mean not taking points away from his teammate. And of course SV would get that, just as I would expect CL to do the same for SV. Or any teammate for the other who has the shot. At one point it becomes a no-brainer and the teammate without the shot would not dare dis his team by being uncooperative when he hasn’t earned the math of a WDC shot himself.

            Btw I’m not an ardent nor blind supporter of SV. But I do respect him for his 4 WDCs and will try to give him the benefit of the doubt, as opposed to the abundant schoolyard rhetoric that is rife on this site. Since 2014 he has not had a WCC car, only Mercedes has, and that is the necessary ingredient to WDCs. Give SV that, let alone a string of years like LH has had and…oh wait…SV has already shown us what he can do in a WCC car. Here’s hoping Ferrari comes up with one soon, although of course I hope RBR does first.

    2. “In which order the cars finish should be binotto’s call. Not the drivers’ call.”

      This sentence right here is the antithesis of sports, and it brings me back to Malaysia 2013’s “Multi 2-1” fiasco. As a Mark Webber fan I was fuming after that race, but after I cooled down a few hours I realised that “Multi 2-1” should never have been signaled in the first place.
      Nobody wants to watch a “sport” where the finishing order is decided in a meeting room 2h before the five red lights are out, if you really think like this, your fandom of a driver or team has surpassed your respect for the sport.

      As for this weekend’s GP: Both drivers share 49% of fault, and Ferrari holds the remaining 51%, and it all comes down to weak leadership and indecision. Binotto may be a fantastic lead designer and engineer, but it seems he doesn’t have what it takes to be a team principal.

      1. I don’t disagree with the idea that in sports it should be the performance of the athletes that sets the finishing order. Not some call from the trackside offices. But in ferrari’s case it has now been proven without a doubt that the drivers can’t finish the race if ferrari lets them do whatever they want. Letting drivers race is fine and amazing but they are always required not to crash into their team mates. When they crash the team can no longer trust them to play it hard but safe. In the end it is the team who is losing when both drivers take each others out of the race. As such the team has the final say. Only time when this is different is when the driver owns the team. Nobody told brabham what to do on track. But schumi had his boss just like vettel should have his.

        In this race the incident was vettel’s fault but ultimately the fault lies at ferrari for having seen this thing develop and not doing anything about it. F1 as sport is cut throat and the drivers need to be cut throat as well. Every advantage that you can take will take you closer to becoming world champion. You never leave points on the table and you never let team mate have even a small victory over you. This killer instinct is what makes a fast driver become champion but it can also make the driver unreasonable and ultimately hurts the team if the team doesn’t control it. Vettel drives for ferrari. Binotto is his boss. It is not vettel’s team and he is not the boss.

  6. What’s wrong with hard racing? Sometimes it bites you. Take away the late race reatarts and it was a snoozer…am I talking about NASCAR? The two series switched on Sunday.

    1. Because when it bites you, the other 800 team members have nothing to show for all their hard work. And in response to both posts above, in F1 it doesn’t go against the fundamentals of sport to intervene between two drivers. There is one team, with two cars, their aim in the sport is to get those two cars as high as possible. Sometimes that is the opposite goal of the individuals.

    2. Being aimlessly unaware of where your car is placed on a long straight is NOT hard racing. It’s just embarassing junior level rubbish.

    3. This was not hard racing but a gratuitous move.

      Vettel had DRS, was almost in front and still quite a go to the end of straight, so by the end of it we will be clearly in front of Leclerc.

  7. I’m surprised that a driver with a Superlicence that had just squeezed his team mate at 300kph never saw that coming and couldn’t (I suspect chose not to) react in time when indeed it came. Last time CL was penalised in Monaco he said he was going all out to get through the field, well that didn’t end well. He said much the same in Brazil and that never ended well either.

    1. So vettel drives into leclerc and the resulting 2 car incident is leclerc’s fault because leclerc had a moment earlier in the race where he ALMOST did a somewhat similar thing to norris who is not his team mate? I… don’t think it works like that…

      1. Just highlighting CL’s inability to avoid a collision despite holding a superlicence!

          1. The alternative?

        1. ust highlighting CL’s inability to avoid a collision despite holding a superlicence!

          What abaut Vettel’s inability to NOT spin (too many instances to list), join the track safely (Monza 2019), NOT crash into teammates (Turkey 2010, Singapore 2017, Brazil 2019)? Why does he still hold a superlicense?

    2. The space was there, the turn was far where the contact happened.
      the space was there for Vettel to beat him by pace and acceleration.
      Then if he cannot brake for the corner properly it’s Seb’s problem.
      He was not made to drive off track by CL, the space was there,
      he was not forced to do anything.
      SV was in a comfortable position to give up the overtaking attempt and chicken out.
      Or even to carry on and see what is happening at the corner. He can always brake or take the bad line where he got if he has not enough room to win by speed difference.
      It was hard racing, a bit unsafe, but not exceptionally rude by Leclerc. Rules not telling that he has to get out of the way, just because someone is having an at about decent overtaking move on him.
      Then the defender should move 1 car width to the left side of the track from middle, while the other is having the right side in a long straight? If it’d be true then LEC would have 1/3 track width, and some time loss due to someone else’s will, and Vettel would have a straight line, DRS, and 2/3 track widht as starting conditions for the corner while thay re still at the straight. This rule is much more the corner after that straight, or about the situation when someone succesfully drives alongside you at a corner, and has a good overtaking opportunity. And being gentleman and try not to kill each other. Lec drove at a straight line, and was not offensive. If you are not set up to the corner then ure failed to ged a good line or proper pace to do it. Giving up is always an option. There were space to beat him by pace, but that pace was not obviously enough, but was at about safe before Vettel moved a bit inside.

    3. @blik Vettel keeps driving into other cars over and over. How does he still have a super licence?

  8. it need to provide its drivers with a more competitive car next year

    Brazil was the first race in many many years where the top 3 teams seemed to be competitive (both on Saturday and Sunday).
    Vettel was second on Saturday whilst making a mistake in the last corner. Leclerc impressively drove from 14th to 6th and could stay within the pitstop window of the leaders even though he started on harder tyres.

    No, the cars were fine in Brazil.
    It should be all about the talent, discipline and racecraft of the drivers now.

  9. Yes, and the one in question is Seb, LOL.

  10. GtisBetter (@passingisoverrated)
    19th November 2019, 9:02

    I don’t get this obsession with blaming a person. Sometimes it’s just racing. We should accept that racing means that people can avoid many things in theory, but they don’t, cause they are here to get the best place possible.

    Your teammate is your biggest rival and while contact shouldn’t happen, it does time after time, like with Ocon and Perez, Rosberg and Hamilton, ricciardo and Verstappen and now Vettel and leclerc. All these battles are great when they work, but bad in hindsight when the fail. Generally I enjoy these battles and don’t worry about who’s to blame.

  11. 100% Vettels fault!

    I think hes a nice bloke, but he gets flustered and sees red (quite literally) too many times. This was a clear case of “damn it, Charles has made me look a fool again with a great pass, I’m squeezing back past and I’ll intimidate him too to put my mark down…”

  12. So what is Brawn’s motivation here? Is he simply unable to bite his tongue? If not, then what is he trying to accomplish?

  13. I tend to agree if you absolutley had to point a finger at one of them it’d probably be slightly more on Vettel than Leclerc, but I don’t see how it’s 100% his fault? There’s enough pictures out there showing Leclerc’s steering angle leaning towards Vettel’s car – equally Leclerc knew there was barely a car’s width on that left hand side without going off the track and knew Vettel was coming at him so fast he’d be past him before the corner. Just as much as Vettel could have waited a little longer before coming across, Leclerc could have given his own team-mate a little more room knowing that he’d already lost the position. Also – Leclerc in that same race did the same swerve across on Norris, and did it to Bottas a while back and trashed his front wing. This ‘Turkey swerve’ thing is something they all do with varying levels of success so the outrage is weird.

    The stewards ruled no driver was wholly at fault and I think they were pretty right in this case. Both of them could have done a little more to avoid what happened.

    1. @rocketpanda What makes this Turkey swerve so acrimonious is that he does it against his team mate.

      The stewards never intervene in intra team incidents. So that says nothing.

  14. Vettel should definitely get penalty points on his licence for that.

  15. There are clearly TWO at fault here, and one is clearly Vettel.
    He was behind (to start with, doesn’t matter he was “passing him” when he collided), and as such should have been more careful. He also is the one who moved, whether on purpose or not. (and, if not on purpose, then perhaps he’s not doing his job very well).

    The biggest culprit, though, is a team that lacks decisiveness and is incapable of leading its own people. Regardless of any other consideration, when the moment came that Leclerc was called in and he was not the balance of power was evident (add to this that Leclerc had the better engine, of course). It should have never even happened that the Ferraris got passed to start with. Vettel ought to have coasted right away to let Leclerc through. We would be talking of a Ferrari podium, perhaps even a second place, had the team had the foresight to do that.

    1. I agree with the first vault -Vettel for making the move. Then I blame the FIA for allowing this. Rosberg on Hamilton, Spain, 2016. Rosberg on Verstappen, 2016, Abu Dhabi. Leclerc on Hamilton, 2019, Monza. No penalties.

      My view is allowing drivers to serve and squeeze on the straights is dangerous, and the is no reason to allow it.

      Then I’d blame Ferrari.

  16. “It’s never nice when team mates knock one another out of a race, even more so when it’s not even a particularly important result that goes begging, as in this case, third place in Brazil was the most they could aspire to.”

    This an old argument I strongly disagree with. If you’re Ferrari, would you rather crashing here fighting for third, or in Singapore fighting for the win? Singapore would have been far worse.

  17. My issue with all this, is that we are now using Hamilton’s behavior as some sort of standard of what other drivers should do in similar situations. Firstly, Lewis accepted the blame wrongly. It definitely wasn’t a 50/50 “racing incident”, it was 100% Albon’s fault for leaving the door wide open. It wasn’t even slightly open. He basically missed the apex, went wide, then turned in quite late. By that time, Lewis was already in the gap he had opened up. As he should have been.

    This was not an issue of the overtaking driver going into a disappearing gap or performing some banzai late braking overtake,

    And with Lewis being unnecessarily magnanimous BECAUSE the championship is over, he even declined not to explain his side to the stewards, leaving them no option but to give him a penalty – thereby setting a bad precedent for drivers to be accepting accidents where they are not at fault, all in the name of some faux humility or magnanimity.

  18. Vettel would have never kept the postion coming into the left corner. Vettel needed to come down on CL to get him to move and break his line for Vettel’s pass to be successful. It was high risk and and uneccessary. The move failed as CL still had right to his line and as a result Vettel is 100% to blame.

    As an F1 fan is was dramatic to watch. As someone that wants Ferrari to compete with Mercedes it looks like there are some management problems in Maranello.

    1. I meant Vettel wouldn’tt kave kept position

  19. Seems like very few people have learned anything from the repercussions of Richard Nixon’s insistent denials of wrong-doing. :-) Just man-up and take your medicine. People respect that.

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