Valtteri Bottas, Mercedes, Nurburgring, 2020

Bottas sees off Hamilton and Verstappen for Nurburgring pole

2020 Eifel Grand Prix qualifying

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The Mercedes drivers saw off a strong challenge from Max Verstappen in qualifying for the Eifel Grand Prix. Valtteri Bottas claimed pole position ahead of team mate Lewis Hamilton with his last lap of the session.

Q1

While 19 drivers carried on with their programme from the morning, Nico Hulkenberg had 20 minutes to acquaint himself with a car he last drove two months ago. This he had to accomplish while jockeying for position with other drivers – he went into the chicane side-by-side with Carlos Sainz Jnr at one point, trying unsuccessfully to ensure he didn’t lose track position to the McLaren driver.

That compromised the beginning of his first timed run, which left him at the bottom of the times, seven-tenths of a second off the next-slowest driver. But with team mate Sergio Perez only safe by seven-thousandths of a second after the first runs, it was clear the substitute faced a huge challenge to progress beyond Q1.

Perez, George Russell and the Haas driver were covered by a mere 11 thousandths of a second, straddling the drop zone, giving all a strong incentive to improve on their final efforts. Haas sent their drivers out early to avoid the risk of encountering yellow flags. Romain Grosjean initially moved up to fifth but his time was deleted for a track limits infringement, but Kevin Magnussen moved clear of the drop zone with the sixth-fastest time.

Max Verstappen set the initial pace, followed by the Mercedes drivers and Charles Leclerc, Ferrari continuing their encouraging form from practice. Those four did not return to the track for a final run. Lando Norris and Daniel Ricciardo did, relegating Leclerc to sixth, followed by Pierre Gasly. The AlphaTauri driver had to be stopped on his way out of the pits as part of the garage floor wrapped itself around his wheel.

Hulkenberg improved again after returning to the track, moving within three-tenths of a second of Perez, until his team mate’s last effort moved him up to ninth place. Hulkenberg couldn’t match that on his final run. He set personal best times in the first two sectors, but wasn’t on course to reach Q2, and then lost more time with a lock-up at the Veedol chicane.

Antonio Giovinazzi’s final run proved good enough for 15th, just two-hundredths of a second ahead of Grosjean. Both Williams drivers also missed the cut along with Kimi Raikkonen, who will join Hulkenberg on the back row of the grid.

Drivers eliminated in Q1

16Romain GrosjeanHaas-Ferrari1’27.552
17George RussellWilliams-Mercedes1’27.564
18Nicholas LatifiWilliams-Mercedes1’27.812
19Kimi RaikkonenAlfa Romeo-Ferrari1’27.817
20Nico HulkenbergRacing Point-Mercedes1’28.021

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Q2

Despite the cold conditions, several drivers opted to start Q2 on medium tyres. Both Mercedes, both Ferraris and Daniel Ricciardo opted for the harder rubber. However Valtteri Bottas, Charles Leclerc and Daniel Ricciardo could only scrape into the bottom of the top 10, and Sebastian Vettel didn’t make it at all. Only Lewis Hamilton managed a sufficiently quick lap, setting the second-quickest time behind Max Verstappen’s soft-shod Red Bull.

The Mercedes pair returned to the track on softs. Bottas moved up to second, a quarter of a second down on Verstappen, but Hamilton was four tenths of a second faster than his team mate in the first sector alone. He lost some time in the middle of the lap, but was still able to go quick enough by three-tenths over Verstappen.

The other drivers who tried the medium tyres also switched to softs for their last runs. But despite the change, Vettel remained unable to break into the top 10. it wasn’t close, either: When he asked his race engineer how close he’d come to making it, Vettel was told Esteban Ocon was almost three-tenths of a second quicker.

Vettel was joined in elimination by the two Ferrari customers

Drivers eliminated in Q2

11Sebastian VettelFerrari1’26.738
12Pierre GaslyAlphaTauri-Honda1’26.776
13Daniil KvyatAlphaTauri-Honda1’26.848
14Antonio GiovinazziAlfa Romeo-Ferrari1’26.936
15Kevin MagnussenHaas-Ferrari1’27.125

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Q3

Verstappen surprised the Mercedes drivers at the beginning of Q3. The Red Bull driver demoted the two black cars to second and third, Bottas a mere 13 thousandths of a second ahead of his team mate.

However Verstappen’s hopes of becoming the first non-Mercedes driver to start from pole position this year looked in danger as soon as the second runs began. Hamilton, leading the way, was immediately quicker than his previous run – and further back Bottas was faster still.

Hamilton was the first of the two to hit the top of the times, but Bottas has the edge on him in both of the first two sectors. Pole went to him by two-tenths of a second, while Verstappen could not respond. “I just didn’t have the grip in Q3,” he said.

Albon had been fourth before the final runs began, but he lost the place after a superb final effort by Leclerc. The Ferrari driver claimed fourth on the grid by just 12 thousandths of a second.

The Renault pair came next, while Perez split the McLarens at the bottom end of the top 10.

Top ten in Q3

1Valtteri BottasMercedes1’25.269
2Lewis HamiltonMercedes1’25.525
3Max VerstappenRed Bull-Honda1’25.562
4Charles LeclercFerrari1’26.035
5Alexander AlbonRed Bull-Honda1’26.047
6Daniel RicciardoRenault1’26.223
7Esteban OconRenault1’26.242
8Lando NorrisMcLaren-Renault1’26.458
9Sergio PerezRacing Point-Mercedes1’26.704
10Carlos Sainz JnrMcLaren-Renault1’26.709

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2020 Eifel Grand Prix

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Author information

Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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178 comments on “Bottas sees off Hamilton and Verstappen for Nurburgring pole”

  1. Hi Red Bull. The worst Ferrari in 20 years just outqualified one of your cars.

    1. Leclerc is a damn good driver would be beating the Mercs drivers all day if he had equal equipment.

      Verstappen and Leclerc the class of the field with Max having the edge.

      1. Hehehe 6 WDCs Vs 0 & 0 says you’re wrong. 90 wins Vs 9 & 2 say you’re wrong. 96 PPs Vs 2 & 7 say you’re wrong… I could go on but what’s the point. Youre just wrong.

        1. Those numbers are hollow

          1. They hold more weight than opinion!

          2. Racist gaslighting. I think this site seriously needs to take this into account. It’s a constant diminution of the achievements of black people, despite all evidence to the contrary, which is cravenly hidden in snide but constant putdowns from trolls like this ‘David Bondo’. This shouldn’t be happening here.

          3. @david-br stop that..
            if you have problems with fans of other drivers try to cope with it.
            Lewis fans tent to be very aggressive when their “hero” seems under attack.
            Skin is not a topic here. Do not make it one!

          4. erikje Sorry, you personally are powerless to stop me. It’s constant Hamilton-baiting by this ‘David Bondo’, you know that. His isn’t an issue over relative performance based on ‘fandom’. I’ve no idea who he’s a fan of. It’s an obsessive trolling, constant putdowns and provocations. This is part of structural racism, constant, everyday diminution. I log on to this site and read many intelligent comments. but this kind of dumb trolling lowers the level for everyone.

          5. @david-br Don’t feed him, not worth it Ham’s achievements are all well deserved.

            Today Bottas took a bit more risk on his final lap and it paid off. Verstappen complained of lack of grip, Hamilton believes he made mistakes.

            We’ll see what happens tomorrow.

          6. @icarby I don’t usually. However, it’s the constant attrition of sneaky negative comments that triggered me. The intended effect is to degrade one particular driver with no real argument but with ‘plausible deniability’.

        2. Numbers mean nothing in a sport so heavily dominated by car performance.

        3. Vettel also has much better numbers than Leclerc. Doesn’t appear to be making him a better driver.

          Statistics in F1 are a biproduct of your car. I cannot think of any other sport where stats are more meaningless than this one.

          1. What are Vettel’s numbers compared to Leclerc’s for the time they’ve been teammates? Meaningless as well?

          2. They aren’t “meaningless”!
            They are the only indispiutal metric of driver achievement. The rest is simply opinion.
            Lewis didn’t win a lottery to end up at Merc. Schumacher wasn’t picked at random by Ferrari.

          3. DeanR, can you please explain why Vettel is losing so badly to Leclerc when he is the more successful driver?

          4. Oh, such a surprise, DeanR didn’t answer about vettel being beaten by leclerc, expected as much by someone who just blindly trusts statistics without analyzing the context.

          5. Believe it or not I have a life beyond the bounds of this site so won’t always respond immediately. Leclerc, in the last 2 Ferraris, has been faster than VET but that will count for nothing if Leclercs never wins a WDC or 4. In 20 years time all of the rivalry and hysteria will have gone and VET will have 4 WDCs notched up in the record books, that’s what people remember. When people mention “Greats” they have all won more than 1 WDC. Unless I’m terribly mistaken, neither Max or Leclerc have even 1 between them.
            So, as we stand, VET would be mentioned as one of the top drivers of all time but LEC and VET simply as unrealised potential.

          6. Of COURSE I meant LEC & VER 😀

        4. What’s this comment about diminishing the achievement just cause of the colour of a driver? The numbers you said have 0 meaning, it’s the performance that matters, fact is verstappen and leclerc never had a championship contending car: ferrari 2019 wasn’t even good enough for that, and nor was red bull ever since 2014.

          Maybe saying verstappen = leclerc > hamilton is an exageration, but at least verstappen = leclerc = hamilton, taking into account the performance differential of the car, makes sense, the thing is we never really see them on the same car cause someone is afraid to be beaten when people have the same chance.

    2. Hi Renault. The worst Ferrari in 20 years just outqualified one of your cars.
      Hi McLaren. The worst Ferrari in 20 years just outqualified one of your cars.
      Hi RP. The worst Ferrari in 20 years just outqualified one of your cars.

      Hi Krichelle. The worst Ferrari in 20 years outqualified two of their cars in Hungary, one of their cars in England, and again in England……what exactly is your point besides highlighting your rather obvious unpleasant personality?

      1. You seem rather sensitive, do relax.

      2. The worst Ferrari arguably since 1980 actually.

    3. you know Ferrari brought so upgrade with them and it seems those are working still Vettel far behind Charles but i see a improvement.

    4. How is it the worst ferrari in 20 years? In 20 years ferrari have always been a top 4 team.

      1. So…, you just proved his point. Its not now.

  2. Lewis Hamilton win tomorrow good luck

  3. Again Bottas is keeping Hamilton honest. Somehow I feel the Merc drivers didn’t squeeze everything out of the car today.

    Leclerc the absolute star. Vettel might be checked out, but putting that Ferrari on 2nd row is nice play.

    1. AJ (@asleepatthewheel)
      10th October 2020, 15:22

      Yeah I think conditions changed significantly between q2 and q3, considering Lewis was quite quick on the mediums in q2. Nevertheless, glad to see Merc lock out the front row! Would love for them to get the record of 100% poles in a season.

    2. Yep on his day, Bottas is one of the quickest around. It was difficult to know the maximum with conditions changing so much, looked a bit tyre sensitive.

      Brilliant from Leclerc, shame Ferrari can’t provide him a car capable of victories at the moment, as he has had some unbelievable performances this year

      1. ‘On his day one of the quickest’ . Lol

        Yes , in the most dominant car of F1 history where his only benchmark is Lewis.
        Bottas would have never achieved 14 poles with Charles or Max as team mates.

        1. typical of the youth. the guy who’s already won everything is a bum. Good are the ones that has yet to achieve anything.
          It was the exact same thing with Schumacher compared to Raikkonen and Alonso 16 years ago.

          People don’t change.

          1. Regarding Alonso, people were proven right. Alonso beat Schumacher in 2006 with basically equal cars.

          2. @kingshark Alonso & Hamilton were basically equal in exactly equal cars, too. Then Rosberg beat Schumacher in exactly equal cars in 2010, 2011, 2012 and Hamilton beat Rosberg most of the time in exactly equal cars.

          3. @neiana
            I don’t really hold what happened from 2010-12 against Schumacher. He was in his 40s and suffered a serious neck injury that kills many people in 2009. He simply was not the same driver anymore.

          4. Indeed, kingshark, it’s unbelievable how people have to keep bringing up 2010-2012 as an argument against schumacher being a strong driver, conveniently ignoring he was over 40, they probably make up in their own head that he was at his peak in 2012!

            Drivers lose over 5 tenths just because of age compared to peak time at that point!

          5. @kingsrhark If you put Schumi neck injury affected his performance for 3 years, how about a motogp rider can still win with painkiller in placed? MotoGP is more demanding than F1. Please no more excuse

          6. Yes, you 2 keep blowing smoke up each others proverbialls. It obviously makes you feel better.

          7. @kingshark that’s a fine argument. However one thing nobody talks about is how Schumacher’s car was built to suit his driving style. Vettel & the DD was gold, even in a car that otherwise was barely superior, but you see what happened as soon as the DD was removed from the grid: Vettel has not done well. Hamilton has legitimately the best car -by far- and was beaten by Nico Rosberg, albeit only once, to the WDC.

            I was remembering the other day that someone referred to x or y driver as the best driver(s) in the world, and I kind of laughed. If they can only drive in a single discipline and win in arguably the best car, that means they are one of the best drivers of that discipline. A driver that can interchange things like Formula 1, Indycar, NASCAR, trans-am, IMSA (whether GT or LMP) and regularly be at/near the front? Those are the best drivers in the world.

            Nothing against these fantastic Formula 1 drivers, but they are only the best Formula 1 drivers.

      2. as he has had some unbelievable performances this year

        you seem to forget his many mistakes this ( and last) year.
        But he did excellent today, that part is true.

        1. Yeah I do agree with you, he has made too many mistakes and that has definitely been a feature of his career so far. In years to come if he’s to win a championship, he needs to cut them out.

          My point was his great performances have been very special so the talent is 100% there

          1. Absolute one of the most promising talents!
            But not sure if Ferrari is the right soil to grow.

  4. On a green track with no data the cream really rose to the top in that session.

    Well done Bottas smashed Hamilton when it counted.

    Stunning performance by Verstappen to be just behind Hamilton despite the RBR being a much slower car. Beat his teammate by half a second too.

    1. Lets hope Bottas doesen’t create another bottleneck behind him ;)

      Looks like Hamilton will have to hearn that record equalinging win.

      1. I suspect Ham has set his car up for the race.

        1. Good point. I wonder if they’ll follow the same tire strategies?

      2. Last 5 winners of this GP came from P2 or P4.

    2. Hehehehe enjoy the moment David. They don’t come around too often. Let’s see what happens when the points are dished out tomorrow.
      We should catch up in December! wadda ya say? 🤣

      1. It seems pretty fair to say that when the drivers have much less, or almost no practice time, there’s a significant difference in Hamilton’s pace, just as there are significant differences in NASCAR’s Kyle Busch’s pace this year with zero practice at all. Both of these drivers & teams are amazing at putting together a car & a great drive when they have the time to put in that effort, but both have really fallen backwards when the practice time is removed.

        Whether this is due to Hamilton’s off track exploits, and needing that extra time to really dial his car & his mind compared to his competitors or not, I don’t know. However, it is, at least off the top of my head, a truth that he is nowhere near as mighty compared to others when they don’t have as much time for practice.

        1. Jesus… yeh, youre right. Lewis is finished. 👏

          1. Wow, your response to factual statements which in no way are negatively directed towards Hamilton, and actually include a statement that Hamilton & Merc do a great job on Sundays speaks volumes.

        2. Which data did you draw this sweeping conclusion from?

          1. @sebsronnie what sweeping conclusion? Whenever there is limited practice, or a brand new track, Lewis almost always seems to be on the back foot. He almost always gets it figured out by quali but sometimes not, yet he manages on race day.

            Oh, I’m sorry, is Lewis your god? Am I not allowed to point out that he is imperfect?

  5. Entertaining qualifying, hopefully leads to a good race tomorrow. Great last lap from Bottas, looked great on the onboards. It looked like conditions changed for Q3. Red Bull are significantly closer, think they’ll be disappointed to not be 3rd and 4th. They’re usually closer in race pace so could be fun. If there’s some rain as well, it could be really spicy

  6. So teams demanding for 2 day weekend got their wish today and what a qualifying it was.

    1. Probably suits drivers that can get by on instinct and raw talent like Verstappen and Leclerc

      1. You’re obsessive devalorisation of Hamilton against all evidence of his achievements can have only one possible source: racism. I really don’t care about hearing the justifications on this point any longer. Why this site tolerates these trolls years and years after they first appeared when Hamilton arrived in F1, I don’t know.

        1. Sorry, but I don’t read too much harm in his post. He is not mentioning Lewis at all.
          And then again, it is on you to link anyone criticizing Lewis to racism . Says a lot about you. Absurd.

          1. @trib4udi See above on ‘racist gaslighting’. Defending this poster says more about you.

          2. @david-br

            Defending this poster says more about you.

            Using racism to attack fans is disgusting, stop doing that!!
            As said, Lewis is not even mentioned. He is a obvious fan of other drivers. You are obvious a (blind) fan of Lewis.
            So be it.

          3. @trib4udi erikje
            So you didn’t read all the other posts by the same poster above? At least be honest.

          4. erikje, the individual using the “David Bondo” pseudonym has also posted some questionable comments in the past talking about how Max is “a natural bred racer” by virtue of his parentage and upbringing that, intentionally or unintentionally, have come across as sometimes having darker undertones.

            The context of some of the comments he has made about how Max has been “born and bred” in the right way for success have, at times, carried across something of a neo-Darwinist undertone of implying that he sees Max as being part of a superior race of humans due to being “bred for success” and having “superior genetics” to others.

            At the same time, some of the comments that same poster has made about Hamilton in particular – and “David Bondo” only ever seems to have negative things to say about Hamilton, who seems to be the only driver whom he treats in such a negative manner – have implied a sense of Hamiltion being “naturally inferior” to Max that sometimes seem to be about more than just what happens on track.

          5. @anon You’re resorting to lies now. I’ve never said those things, not that there’s anything particularly wrong about saying Verstappen was born and bred to race his father was an F1 driver, his mother raced in motorsports.

          6. David Bondo, or perhaps I should say Oconomo, obsessing over Max’s parentage and “being bred to race” in that way comes across as rather creepy, particularly when it is being used by individuals to proclaim his superiority (and it is odd that you are indeed then going on to imply that you support the very thing you initially deny doing).

            Why is it that so much more seems to be made of his parentage when compared to other drivers, and in particular when it comes to a comparison with Hamilton?

        2. Classic Hamilton fan tactic. Attack anybody who dare criticize the blessed one and call them racist.

          Worst part is that it is in itself a racism outburst, as they have no idea what skin color the poster is but just like to assign things they don’t like to race, which is the definition of racism.

          How they consistently get away with this extreme form of personal attack is beyond me, especially as it’s against the site’s Comment Policy.

          1. @balue ‘Classic Hamilton fan tactic’? You write as though the years of explicit racist abuse against Hamilton on YouTube and other sites weren’t a real thing. Or the numerous racist incidents throughout his career. Or the fact that nobody else in an equivalent position has had his real merit so consistently denied, even today. But of course, you’ll deny all that and spout David Bondo’s ‘innocence’, despite it being evident to everyone who regularly visits this site what his real agenda is. But then you have your own track history, don’t you?

          2. @david-br Totally classic Hamilton fan tactic. As typical as can be. If it’s not constant bashing of your man’s opponent or critics, it’s to bash other fans like what you do on here. And it’s everywhere. I escaped to here from much worse, but they are all over and there seems one can’t be anywhere together with just F1 fans without having to endure people like you. Driver fans who are not really interested in the sport, but just about waving a driver flag and pick fights like football hooligans. And I bet when it comes to racial bias that you always accuse others of, I bet no one is more governed by it than you..

          3. @balue Your classification of myself and others as ‘Hamilton fans’ sets yourself up as anti-Hamilton, constantly. It’s fairly obvious I’m a fan too of Verstappen, and I could list a number of others. Yet you insist on labelling this way as a provocation and a disqualification. Hence my animosity towards you. It’s a craven way of trying to win your point. Likewise your ‘classic’ reversal of racism: “look who’s talking about racism! They’re the real racists!” Said no racist ever, right? Enough of you.

        3. @david-br

          You cant continue to let him rile you up. Others seem to ignore him now. Ignore him too.
          As the saying goes: ‘dont feed the trolls’

          1. @lums You’re right, and it makes an unpleasant mess contesting them, for which I’m always left remorseful. But left uncontested, more and more such comments sprout up. I think the site needs to be more proactive in weeding out these needless provocations from posters who can’t even be bothered to register (yet alone subscribe presumably).

        4. @david-br
          Classic Hamilton fan tactic. Anyone who disagrees with me that Lewis is the best at everything must be a racist.

          I think Hamilton is overrated and flattered by the Mercede. Verstappen and Leclerc are better talented and faster drivers than him. Not because of racism, but because of the evidence that I see in front of me (mostly teammate comparisons).

          1. Yawn? Constructive, damn! I’m gonna say the same: hamilton is most likely one of the top drivers, but he indeed has a car better than any driver in f1 had on average across his career, and I would really be curious to see what’d happen with verstappen or leclerc as a team mate and I wouldn’t be surprised about one of the 2 ending up with the title, the only clear advantage hamilton has is experience at this point.

          2. Basically, david-br, you are proving kingshark’s point with that comment: you won’t get into team mate comparisons cause you know hamilton wouldn’t end up on top.

        5. @david-br it is still factual truth that Hamilton does not do “as well” when practice is removed. I do not know his private life or the private life of those of his competitors but it is not something that can be argued: less practice = slower Hamilton in comparison to his competition. THAT part of the comment is not racism, it is indisputable fact.

          1. @neiana My comments about racism where directed at ONE particular poster here.

            I’d suggested Hamilton was in a lull period a few weeks back. So I’ve no issue with your point at all, it’s a valid and sustainable observation. I do have an issue with the deliberate, repetitive, empty, sustained trolling practiced by the one poster. If you wish to defend his actions, fine. But please, refrain from disingenuously applying my comments to anyone making a negative comment. It’s in complete bad faith.

          2. @david-br

            THAT part of the comment is not racism, it is indisputable fact.

            “That” referencing how Hamilton seems to “suffer” more from lack of practice than other front runners, not just any “negative comment”. It is still clear that Hamilton & team can put together a winning drive because they are still at the top of the field.

      2. Dave (@davewillisporter)
        10th October 2020, 19:40

        Instinct like the wet Styrian GP quali where Hamilton wiped the floor with the entire field by 1.4 seconds? Just sayin!

        1. He should thank Seb for impeding Max’s hot lap which still would have not beaten his but should have been much closer

          1. Dave (@davewillisporter)
            10th October 2020, 20:43

            Yeah, except Fuji 2007, Silverstone 2008. Form has a purpose. It informs reality.

  7. That was a great session, VVB put in a cracker of a lap when it mattered. I’ve got a bit of hope that this title race isn’t dead just yet…

    1. Agreed. Cracking lap from VB. Pole fully deserved. Was strange though! In Q2 VB was really struggling. Glad he pulled it back in Q3.
      Race pace is something he mostly comes up short on compared to Lewis but lets see what he can do tomorrow. My money is on a Lewis win.

      1. Yeah I was very worried for VB after Q2, but he bounced back really strongly in Q3.

  8. + Bottas, Verstappen, Leclerc, Giovinazzi, Hulkenberg

    – Grosjean, Vettel, Albon

    1. I would put albon in the neutrals and hulkenberg in the negative, hulk was last and albon was unusually close to verstappen.

    2. Doesnt make sense giving Grosjean a minus. He was close to his teammate and finishes where it was expected or a position better beating a faster Alfa. Yes his last lap got deleted, because of track limits and so you have a small arguement, but Raikkonen should have that minus getting beaten by both Haas and Giovinazzi.
      Hulkenberg with a plus while doing nothing is head scratching, neutral at best in the harsh circumstances.

  9. No real surprises it looks like. Maybe we don’t need fp1 and 2. We’ll see tomorrow though… qualifying is one thing, race is another.

  10. Max is 30-2 head to head with his teammate in qualifying since the start of 2019.

    Extraordinary stuff. Imagine what he’d do in that Merc.

    Against Ricciardo in 2017 and 2018 (who has destroyed his teammates at Renault as well as Vettel at RBR) it was 27-14.

    No question who the quickest over a single lap is on this grid

    1. please, stop posting. you’re ruining the comments section of this website.

      1. Your words will fall on deaf ears, I’m afraid. Mr Bondo has the interminable tendency to fawn all over Max. While I am not really a fan of Max, as a long-time F1 fan I am big enough to understand and certainly appreciate his considerable talents. Unfortunately, Mr Bondo seems a different kind of fan. Thanks to his countless contributions, this website’s comments sections sometimes feels more like a YouTube comments section.

      2. Why stop posting? Can’t handle the truth? As far as I recall ricciardo destroyed vettel (who’s overrated, the most in f1 I think, more than hamilton), then verstappen gradually improved and ended up beating ricciardo (who’s still a strong driver) and verstappen is at least good enough to match hamilton at mercedes, at this point verstappen is from ’97 I think and with hamilton from ’85 you can see them as alonso and schumacher, both really strong drivers but inevitably the younger driver will come on top with similar cars.

        1. Either you and Bondo are the same person or you are having an intimate relationship. My moneys on the latter.

    2. The 2 losses were not on even merit!
      Monza 2020: Max took new engine and didn’t participate in qualifying.
      Canada 2020: Max couldn’t finish his 2nd run in q2, due to crash of a Haas causing last minute red flag. Max got eliminated in q2 this way.

      1. Great point. In reality he’s undefeated since 2019.

        Schumacher went through a 4 year period in the 90s where he didn’t lose a qualifying session to a teammate. Max is on a similar level

        1. Also similarly shameful attitude of winning at all costs quite possibly.
          A true champion has depth of character and honour in their heart. Like Lewis Hamilton. If ever there was an examplar he is one.

          1. What about what he did to Alonso in Hungary qualifying 2007, lying to officials Australia 2009?

            No one is perfect.

          2. Best “Lying to the stewards” trophy

        2. Indeed, verstappen reminds me of schumacher, and the winning at all costs attitude is a plus for me (although I like honesty, that was a downside of schumacher with some moves).

          Fun the thing about hamilton, best lying to the stewards trophy! Although that particular race was a good performance for him, he dragged the worst car he ever drove (early season 2009 mclaren) from last to 3rd.

    3. Dave (@davewillisporter)
      10th October 2020, 19:18

      @DavidBondo That would be the guy with the record of 96 poles. Max has never had a WDC in the other seat. Until he does, lets stick to the facts we know as apposed to the “facts” we believe. By your logic, Russell is quicker than Verstappen.

      1. @davewillisporter

        Max has never had a WDC in the other seat

        No, but he did have a driver who beat a 4 time WDC in the other seat.

    4. Dave (@davewillisporter)
      10th October 2020, 19:52

      9 vs 9 against Sainz in his rookie season. 7 vs 13 against Ricciardo in his second season. Lewis’s record? A bit better than that. Almost 50 50 vs Alonso, a two times WDC that beat Schumi (with some FIA induced tyre shenanigans) two years in a row. Sorry. Max’s introduction to the sport has been great but hasn’t beaten Lewis’s debut years. That’s just historical fact. Put the two together in the same team it would be close but Lewis’s 6 WDC experience would give him the edge. That’s a comparison of two ends of the career spectrum going up against each other. Lewis would still win. How do I know? Their records. Compared to Max’s debut years, Lewis smashed him in his. WDC second year after losing in his rookie year by a point and seeing off a 2 times WDC in his first. Max has yet to be tested in that cauldron. Lewis? Been there, done that!

      1. Dave (@davewillisporter)
        10th October 2020, 20:14

        Correction. 7 vs 13 against Ricciardo in his THIRD season. Lewis has already a WDC by then!

        1. Max was thrust into F1 with little race experience. Hamilton started accumulating thousands of Test miles 5-6 months before his first race even getting s jump on Alonso in driving the McLaren (which had completely different driving characteristics to the Renault).

          Also it was clear that Hamilton was Ron’s golden haired boy in that team.

          I feel like the most impressive part of Hamilton’s career was that first season much in the same way Villeneuve peaked very early in his F1 career.

          It’s very difficult to judge Hamilton’s second half of his career because his only real competition has been the much lower paid driver on the other side of the garage, while Toto, Paddy and then James all barely suppressed their delight when Hamilton beat his teammate.

          The only years where Schumacher’s only competition was his teammate was 2002 and 2004

          1. Dave (@davewillisporter)
            10th October 2020, 21:18

            Thousands of miles? That is a myth. Lewis had two tests before F1. That’s it. Read the damn books please. Alonso was his team mate and Ron Dennis intended for Alonso to win the WDC and WCC for McLaren in 2007. These are easily researched facts. Rosberg was absolutely allowed to race Lewis. Jenson was absolutely allowed to race Lewis. Alonso was absolutely allowed to race Lewis. These are facts. I’ve read a LOT of books on this. All of them. Max wasn’t thrust into anything. Jos chose his path. Up against Sainz in his first year he was 50 50. Up against Riccardo in his THIRD year he was down. These are just facts mate. Just facts. Max is an incredible competitor now, but it has taken him a bit longer. That is just a fact. Put them both in the same team and yes Max would do a better job than Bottas but no, there is no evidence that he would beat Lewis. None.

          2. David Dumbo, your entire thought process consists of Hamilton = Bad, Max = Great. Zip, nada, nothing else. It’s unusual to find anyone as narrow minded as you.

          3. Hamilton might have had two tests with the 2007 car but he was getting thousands of miles of practice in a McLaren from around September 2006. Hamilton also had experience with Bridgestone rubber from F2

          4. Dave (@davewillisporter)
            10th October 2020, 21:55

            Firstly How? McLaren test records have this down. It is a matter of HISTORICAL RECORD, And secondly, how is the Bridgestone tyre situ any different from the Pirelli ONE? I’ve read the history. And that is what happened despite your preference. It is HISTORY!

          5. 20th Sept 2006 Silverstone 64 laps

            21st Sept 2006 Silverstone 50 laps

            Barcelona – 28/11/2006 63 laps

            Barcelona – 29/11/2006 47 laps

            Barcelona – 30/11/2006 86 laps

            Jerez – 6/12/2006 79 laps

            Jerez – 7/12/2006 78 laps

            Jerez – 8/12/2006 79 laps

            Jerez – 14/12/2006 100 laps

            Jerez – 15/12/2006 100 laps (Alonso’s first test with McLaren as well)

        2. Ok, I read all your conversation, I tend to say titles and wins don’t count for much cause they depend SO MUCH on the car, so I will never say vettel is better than leclerc or verstappen cause of his 4 titles or 53 wins, he’s currently performing like a backmarker driver (not midfield), hamilton is still performing well, but he also has a great car, even vettel was able to perform well with a great car.

          Hamilton’s statistics have obviously been inflated by the mercedes cars he drove, but I don’t recall a season he was abysmal like vettel, not even 2011, he was also lucky to start with a championship contending mclaren, schumacher, verstappen, senna etc. didn’t get that luck, they had to earn a top car by performing well on a mediocre one.

          On other hand, your team mate comparison argument is probably right: matching alonso in the first year surely is a better record than matching sainz in the first year, but still I’d be really curious by a match-up of hamilton and verstappen at the same car and wouldn’t be surprised by a verstappen win.

      2. Max was thrust into F1 with little race experience. Hamilton started accumulating thousands of Test miles 5-6 months before his first race even getting s jump on Alonso in driving the McLaren (which had completely different driving characteristics to the Renault).

        Also it was clear that Hamilton was Ron’s golden haired boy in that team.

        I feel like the most impressive part of Hamilton’s career was that first season much in the same way Villeneuve peaked very early in his F1 career.

        It’s very difficult to judge Hamilton’s second half of his career because his only real competition has been the much lower paid driver on the other side of the garage, while Toto, Paddy and then James all barely suppressed their delight when Hamilton beat his teammate.

        The only years where Schumacher’s only competition was his teammate was 2002 and 2004.

    5. Russell is 32-0 in the same time, imagine him versus Max, he would demolish him by your logic.

      1. He’s been up against a pay driver and someone with a significant disability that should never have been on a test track with an F1 car let alone in a race.

        But Russell is a strong driver nonetheless.

        Verstappen destroyed a guy that basically destroyed peak Vettel in equal equipment.

        1. This is like claiming yourself world champion because you beat a world champion. Its childish at best.

  11. Ocon getting close to Ricciardo not only means he’s finally getting into the groove but I bet also the car is working well. On most circuits too it seems.

    Also promising to hear Brundle commenting how McLaren is visibly improved on change of direction. Their new front end ‘philosphy’ working.

    1. Nah, ricciardo has more in reserve, watch tomorrows race

    2. N=1
      Let’s wait for a few more weekends?

    3. Sure the race will sort them out, but Ocon has been much closer lately since they found the ‘sweet spot’ on the setup.

  12. Going by recent form, ricciardo should have been 4th not 6th, off day for Ricciardo

    1. He had a “terrible” lap in the first try on Q3, he was way more than 2s slower and I believe it was the slowest time of all (maybe even slower than is time on Mediums on Q2). Something happened there and that might have prevented further improvement.

      Still the fight for 3rd place in the WCC is becoming a real cracker, in particular with Ferrari coming back but I do hope Ricciardo can help Renault get it while also getting 4th for himself in the WDC

      1. I Like ferrari coming back, too bad they only have a single performing driver, I’m sure sainz, while he should not beat lerclerc, will perform like can be expected by a number 2 driver.

  13. What a lap from Bottas.
    He literally wiped the floor with Hamilton.
    Stewart was right about him, Senna and Schumacher would have been beaten so soundly.

    1. Careful you might be considered racist for not saying Hamilton is amazing.

      1. @Ben – certainly not racist, but certainly juvenile.

        If Bottas “wiped the floor” with Lewis Hamilton because of a 2/10ths difference, what shall we call the 1.5sec difference Lewis had in the Styrian GP?

        It is like some people in an alternative universe where anything Lewis Hamilton does has to be undermined with the most risible arguments.

        1. Thanks. This comments section is slowly becoming quite unbearable (at least for me).

        2. @kbdavies
          Being beaten by Bottas isn’t by far a “risible argument”, if we are talking about being the greatest of all time.

          1. But you and your ilk brought the argument up.

            And hasn’t Verstappen also been beaten by Riccardo in qualifying? I thought he was the greatest? Or did your cognitive dissonance not go that far?

    2. Dave (@davewillisporter)
      10th October 2020, 19:35

      @liko41 Ahem! 1.5 seconds quicker than Bottas in a wet Styrian GP quali. I’d say that’s pretty Schumacher esque. That said, I think Bottas gets closer than any other driver since Lewis’s rookie year against Alonso. Rosberg had his moments too. Telling they are both WDC. Question now is, can Bottas hold it to the end of the season because as of now it’s 8 to 3 in Hamilton’s favour. One lap a championship does not make. Kovaleinen outqualified Hamilton once or twice I think. What happened to him exactly?

      1. @davewillisporter
        Again, this is not a Hamilton v. Bottas or Hamilton v. Rosberg debate.
        It’s Hamilton v. the all time greats.
        Been soundly outqualified and beaten by Bottas while the championship is still open (so, no lack of motivation excuse, sorry) is not so Schumacher-esque.
        Sorry about that.

        1. So your greats were never ever outqualified by their teammates or other drivers in lesser cars?

          1. @sebsronnie
            Definitely not as often as Hamilton

    3. Dave (@davewillisporter)
      10th October 2020, 20:16

      Not to mention, Lewis beat the guy that beat Schumi. Evidence, ya know!

      1. @davewillisporter Sorry, when did Hamilton beat Alonso?

        1. I think he’s talking about Rosberg, the guy that was 10-10 in qualifying against a 42 year old Schumacher in 2012. Rosberg beat Hamilton 11-8 in qualifying in 2014.

        2. Hamilton beat Alonso on count back.

          1. So technically accidental, but honestly did not beat Alonso?

      2. @davewillisporter
        LOL!
        Taking into consideration Schumacher’s second stint in F1 is by far the most dishonest argument one could bring int the table.
        Speaks volumes…

        1. Dave (@davewillisporter)
          12th October 2020, 17:33

          @liko41 @neiana No, I was referring to 2007 in which Hamilton beat Alonso 2nd to 3rd in the WDC after Alonso had just beaten Schumi the previous two years. Alonso was on the form of his career and Hamilton beat him. And please don’t argue that he didn’t really beat him because that’s just how it works. Not my rules, the FIA’s.

  14. where’s Lewis hiding? anyone seen him lately?
    In that car he should be teaching Bottas a lesson.
    Oh, I see. That was Lewis at his best. I didn’t realise….

    1. You’ve obviously not been looking very hard for Lewis. He’s sitting right at the top of the WDC chart.
      D- Must try harder 😁

      1. @DeanR, it would be nigh impossible for Mercedes to be anywhere other than top, with the advantage they have….

        1. Indeed, I’m gonna say 3rd place is the bare minimum you can expect from mercedes drivers every race, they SHOULD beat verstappen but at least they NEED to be on the podium!

        2. You asked where he was hiding… you got your reply. All you’ve said is essentially: Yeh but…no but…yeh but…

    2. Wheres Lewis? In your head most of the time, where he lives rent free. Is it just Hamilton, or do all successful black men make you feel inadequate?

      1. I don’t get why people would hate athletes, just stick to supporting your idol.
        But I also don’t understand why people who seem to hate Lewis, would automatically be racists?
        My feeling is that most ‘haters’ of Lewis are just bored of Mercedes dominance, and it has nothing to do with their skin.
        You saw similar comments during Schumacher’s reign.

      2. or do all successful black men make you feel inadequate?

        yep. another one..
        Racist quotes out of context seem to be very popular with certain Lewis fans.
        Its a pity this forum is moving in that direction.
        Back to F1 please!

        1. Blindness to obvious problematic and/or nonsensical comments about Lewis seems to be very popular with anti-Lewis fans.

      3. Another racist comment from a Hamilton fan. You have no idea what skin color the poster is, but will assign negative traits to race, the very definition of racism.

        I wish this site would police its Comment Policy and get rid of these blatant racist outburst once and for all, and not have it normalized like is now.

  15. Why all the detracting comments for Lewis simply because he got 2nd place in pole?!?!
    Did Bottas get any tow from having Lewis in front or was track position irrelevant in this track and session?
    Even if Lewis was beaten by Bottas he still got 2nd and will most likely win tomorrow…

    1. Dave (@davewillisporter)
      10th October 2020, 19:37

      @bakano No advantage. Lewis didn’t push the limits. Bottas did. That’s it.

    2. @bakano
      What does “he still got 2nd” mean?
      What place should he get with THAT car?

      1. @liko41 well you made my point! The 2 Mercedes should get th first row but actually in the previous reason Bottas was relegated to the second!

        If Hamilton had been beaten by any other driver except his teammate, that would have some more weight.
        But of course any discussion about the results from Saturday are less relevant today, seeing Hamilton won and how “well” Bottas was doing even though he “soundly” beat him the day before…

        1. @bakano
          So, Hamilton being better than Bottas is enough for you?
          Fair, then, we can agree on that.
          TBH I don’t even think we needed any more evidence.
          I thought Hamilton was in a broader discussion about the GOAT, but, whatever.

          1. Where did I mention GOAT in my comment?
            I was seeing a lot of negative comments for Hamilton because he had been (apparently) “soundly beaten” by Bottas, me that result made all the difference!

            As for Lewis only being better than Bottas, well he’s better than all the others but of course the detractors will say it’s only due to the car, so yes Bottas is the only other driver that he undeniably beats.
            That is not what only matters, but flipping the tables,when Bottas (occasionally) beats Lewis, it’s seems to be the only thing that matters for detractors…

          2. @bakano
            Lewis was not better than all the others. His car was.
            But if the only thing that matters to you is pointing out that Hamilton is better than Bottas, than ok.
            We might easily agree on that.
            My bad.

  16. The best thing I heard today was…

    Hamilton who drives car 44, leads Bottas in car 77, who is 33 points ahead of car 33, driven by Verstappen. Verstappen is 77 points behind Lewis Hamilton…

    1. So we have to give Ham his original number when he started his career. number 10 and everything is solved?

  17. This useless kindergarten thread is what happens when you allow multiple accounts from the same IP address/VPN, @keithcollantine. The trolls have no sense of identity or dignity, they post both sides of the argument, just hoping to provoke genuine fans. It might seem like lots of lovely traffic, but the genuine fans will get fed up and in the end the trolls will be what you have left.

    1. Honestly I don’t think it’s multiple accounts, but some of us are getting tired of some arguments we see around (in my case people overrating drivers in virtue of their number of wins or titles instead of current performance, considering they relate so much to the car), others mostly because of fandom, so you get heated arguments, I really doubt a single person posts both on one direction and the opposite.

      1. @esploratore It really is remarkable how you can write so much and not say one interesting thing. That’s some talent you have.

  18. It’s interesting that recent practices have usually shown Bottas setting the pace in FP1 & 2. Here in quali, when practice has been limited, Bottas excels. I wonder if there’s a conclusion that can be drawn? Perhaps Bottas has the ability to dial in quickly and get a high percentage out of the car quickly but fails to gain much more with the extra time. Hamilton seems to be able to keep improving with the extra setup time, often overhauling Bottas either in FP3 or Quali. If so, I expect Bottas to run well at Immola where the 2 day format, again, limits setup time…

  19. Apparently most of the posters didn’t hear the commentators state at the end of qualifying that over the last 5 races at the Ring, 4 of the winners started 2nd on the grid. Thinking HAM isn’t sweating the lost pole.

    1. This makes sense if Hamilton drives long enough in that sweat spot behind the leader where he preserves his tires and doesn’t expends fuel. These days fuel and refuelling isn’t the issue it was.

    2. @jimfromus
      Still, he got beaten, right?
      By Bottas, right? A decent driver, but not exactly an all time great.
      That’s the kind of performances that makes people think about Hamilton’s real value, compared to Schumacher, for instance.

  20. What a nonsense comments about Hamilton vs Max. Hamilton does few mistakes under pressure. Max is a great racer and probably the second in the grid and maybe he will dominate F1 and break Hamilton’s records. Hamilton won’t last forever. Who knows. Vettel probed my fandom for him was just result of a superior car vs his talent. Without Lewis, Mercedes would be struggling to keep a winning record just because Max would have better chances to win. Not every dominant car is automatically a winner except Vettel and RBR, which gave Vettel hollow WDC’s as the time probed. Am I racist when I tell that Vettel is a poor driver? No. Am I racist if I say the same about Hamilton? I let that question to you Right know Hamilton is the more rounded driver in the most complete car in a the most competitive team. Can’t say the same about Bottas. A waste of car in him Makes me miss Rosberg. Ferrari had spent more money, specially in bonuses and golden parachutesamd the result is evident. The car is just a piece of garbage. Kudos to Leclerc to extract speed from that snail. Conclusion. Hamilton is old school in terms of discipline and talent. Directs the team to tweak the car that fill his skills. Great Schumacher successor. Max needs more miles and find the spot he misses frequently and he should start looking at Renault strong points to win his first WDC. Leclerc needs to start building a car but the politics around him won’t let him. Vettel should start taking broadcasting lessons.

    1. The thing is, this mercedes is extremely dominant when you look at the qualifying gaps over a season, and even in 2019, 2016, 2015 and 2015 you had a huge gap. If you saw some of my comments you will know I’m all but a vettel fan, however there’s no way to say these mercedes are less dominant than vettel’s red bull, so if you put this success down to hamilton you also should give credit to vettel in red bull.

      I think both are overrated, but vettel much more so, I think hamilton would still be around #1 to #3 on the grid atm with an even car, while vettel would be around #15, since hamilton indeed made a step up around 2018 and is now more consistent, while up until 2017 he was throwing away as many points with undeperforming (occasional) races as vettel was with his mistakes.

      At the same time as hamilton corrected this flaw, vettel intensified his mistakes, so they took opposite directions in performance.

      Leclerc and verstappen are indeed good and when I say hamilton could be #3 on the grid they’d take #2 and #1 spot ofc.

      1. Finally, I think half the grid would be able to win the title with this mercedes, which is around where I’d place bottas, you see that despite a terrible season he’s still ahead of verstappen atm, that’s how good mercedes is.

        1. You guys must really in pain at the upcoming record equaling acheivement by Hamilton. This is the only logical explanation for your enduring efforts to undermine him at any slightest excuse, and hence the constant wailing.

          Unfortunately, any half decent fan of F1 knows the “it’s the car” excuse is pure claptrap. It is best left to those who want to make a fool of themselves, but are too dense to even realise it.

          Pure dunning-kruger!

    2. Without Hamilton, Mercedes would still have a front row lockout in nearly every race.

      If Verstappen was in Hamilton’s seat he’d have 11 poles.

      1. This i s fiction and wishful thinking in your head.Good luck on that.You can wake up from your dream when Max is a world champion

        1. @Pate
          I’m not by far a Verstappen fan, quite the opposite actually, but I’m starting to think David Bondo is right.
          Honestly, Max constantly outqualifies hie teammates by miles.
          Hamilton loses too often from Bottas.
          Lewis probably wouldn’t stand a chance against Max with the same car.

          1. Coulda… Shoulda… Woulda..

            Keep it up, guys. But to compare Max’ teammates (Riccardo, Gasly, Kyvat, and Albon, to Lewis’s teammates (Rosberg, Button, Alonso, and Bottas). is pure stupidity.

            Let’s see Max beat a world champion first….just one, then y’all can talk. At least Lewis has beaten three.

          2. @kbdavies
            You know what is pure stupidity? Your comment.
            There is a STRONG argument for Max being the quickest driver in F1 now, deal with it.

          3. That is funny. I could have sworn stupid is using an argument against one driver, but claiming it doesn’t apply to another driver. Never mind that claiming Max is the quickest driver in F1 right now with absolutely no evidence to back it up is also stupid.

          4. @kbdavies
            The evidence is given by the way max CONSTANTLY overperforms his teammates.
            All of them. Everytime. By a very large margin.

          5. @Fantomius –

            The evidence is given by the way max CONSTANTLY over performs his teammates

            Maybe in the upside down alternative universe you reside in. But Verstappen certainly didn’t outperform Ricciardo constantly, every time, and by a large margin. He didn’t even do that to Carlos Sainz. So let’s see him against world champions like Alonso, Rosberg, and Button before you start crowing about who he is outperforming.

  21. Great job from Bottas

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