Hamilton: Bottas deserves more credit than he gets

2020 Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix

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Lewis Hamilton says his team mate Valtteri Bottas doesn’t get enough credit for how well he is driving.

Bottas has been Hamilton’s closest rival for the championship this year. He is the only driver left who can beat Hamilton to the title, but is 85 points behind with only 104 available over the remaining races.

“Valtteri doesn’t get the credit he’s due because he does an amazing job,” Hamilton told Ziggo Sport. “He’s an incredibly fast driver.

“I think he’s better than a large portion of the field that are here, not only in his driving, but more in his mental attitude and approach. Because being a driver is not just about driving, it’s not just about practice. It’s about how you compose, how you bring and elevate people around you and he’s great at that.”

Bottas has taken pole position four times this year. Although Hamilton prevailed the other nine times, the gap between the pair of them was a tenth of a second or less on five of those occasions.

“When I look back on those times they were too close,” said Hamilton. “They weren’t good enough because I believe that I have a certain amount of extra time in me.

“But it’s honestly just never giving up, never believing it’s over. It’s down to feel, pushing to the limit and trying to put all the pieces to the puzzle together in a rush.

“When you go into practice, you’ve basically got a new puzzle and the pieces are all over the place and you only have a select amount of time to put all the pieces of the puzzle into place.

“When you get to qualifying, sometimes you have half the puzzle done, sometimes you have the whole thing done, sometimes you have less. And then you just have to throw it all together and hope it comes together. And I’m okay at both.”

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2020 Emilia-Romagna Grand Prix

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    Keith Collantine
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    85 comments on “Hamilton: Bottas deserves more credit than he gets”

    1. Well.. actually by being mediocre one is automatically better than a large portion of the population. It’s how being mediocre works

      ;-)

    2. Maybe that’s true, but Rosberg was better than an even greater proportion of the grid.

      1. No he wasn’t. Rosberg benefitted when Hamilton had issues. While currently it’s Bottas who has the brunt of the issues.

        1. Sigh. Even if you still believe the tired “Rosberg only won because Ham had issues” myth, maybe you need to remember what Seb said “he fully deserved it, some years you are more fortune but that has also applied to other drivers. Its about the overall championship”

          Rosberg took the fight to Ham consistently in a way that Bottas simply has not done.

          1. What people conveniently forget is that Rosberg ran a “defend the lead strategy” at the end of 2016. He was in the lead and just needed to follow. He could afford it.

            Bottas is better than some in the current field, sure. There are enough in the current field that would give Hamilton more competion though.

            1. José Lopes da Silva
              3rd November 2020, 9:28

              How did Rosberg get that lead?

            2. since you asked, Hamilton DNF Malasia …

              and least anyone forget, remember they swapped the garages that year… enough said.

          2. Paul Jones. Your ‘Seb’ quote actually backs up what @f1osaurus says…

          3. Other major difference is that Bottas comes after Rosberg and I think it did make Hamilton stronger to have this rivalry. Bottas is a quieter figure and the mind games almost disappeared while he keeps Hamilton pushing especially on Saturday’s.

            When looking how much gap there are in between teammates in most teams, Bottas is closer to Hamilton than many are from their own teammate. Only notable exceptions are McLaren and Haas, one where drivers push each other and the other where it’s unclear if they push or drag each other down…

            Bottas is no Hamilton, but definitely doing very well and RedBull and Ferrari could only wish to have such strong pairing which makes Bottas clearly above most of the grid (not among the greatest though).

            1. That’s a crucial point overlooked in this discussio @jeanrien . The loss to Rosberg in 2016 – and it was a loss, given that Hamilton could still have won the title by putting in a much better performance in Japan after the Malyasia DNF – clearly made Hamilton improve another level. It’s important to acknowledge that he lost to Rosberg on track for that reason: it’s clearly what Hamilton himself felt, he didn’t excuse the loss of the title by having more failures, even though that was true, but set out to improve his racing further still in a number of areas. So Bottas is dealing with an even better driver. I think Rosberg himself has acknowledged that somewhere or other. By the same reckoning, then, Bottas must be around level with Rosberg (now frozen in 2016 time of course) or even a bit better. He doesn’t have the same feel for the car as Hamilton or Verstappen, which makes them so adaptable and responsive to conditions, but then very few do. His main fault is a lack of on-track aggression, which conversely Mercedes clearly see as a relative plus (no collisions with Hamilton) rather than a minus (more difficulties passing when he’s further down the field).

            2. As you guys mention @david-br and @jeanrien, the fact that Lewis has learnt from 2016 and keeps learning so that by now he has further developed and is an even better driver for it. Bottas is doing a really good job of keeping close to Hamilton on the saturdays, and I really value him for being able to pick up the shards after yet another defeat and come back to push Hamilton again a race or two later.

            3. @jeanrien So Hamilton had almost a dozen races where he was held back by issues, but the one race where he performed slightly below excellent is what’s going to be the deciding thing?

              Every driver makes a mistake here and there. You cannot claim that they need to be 100% faultless.

            4. @bascb Yes he learned that not participating in quali means you don’t get pole. Or that starting from the pitlane it’s hard to win a race. I guess he knew that already before 2016 though.

          4. Paul Jones Yeah like people say Hamilton had a bad start in 2016 since he wasn’t “focussed”. Didn;t participate in Q3 in two races and got rammed of by Bottas in another. That’s your “bad start” right there.

            Most of the times when Rosberg was ahead of Hamilton it was because Hamilton had an issue during quali. Or otherwise because Rosberg set up his car totally for Q3 and then would be overtaken during the race by Hamilton.

            1. Race by race it is…
              Melbourne: Hamilton pole, Rosberg won.

              Bahrain: Hamilton pole, Rosberg won after a better start and Hamilton getting into a collision with Bottas and finishing 3th

              China: Rosberg won, Hamilton had to start from the back. He finished 7th, but lost a lot of time because of colliding with Nasr and making an extra stop. He should have gotten 2nd in this race. Vettel recovered from 14th to second at the same time, Hamilton in his way quicker car was 20th.

              Russia: Hamilton had an issue in qualifying leaving him 10th. Finished second, Rosberg won.

              Spain: Hamilton on pole, Rosberg overtook him at the start, they both went off.

              Monaco: Rosberg was ahead in qualifying, he let Hamilton through during the race and Hamilton actually had the luck of a bad pitstop from Ricciardo to win the race. Had Rosberg not let him go, he would have never won this race.

              Canada: Hamilton on pole, pushed Rosberg of the track at turn 1. Rosberg recovered to P2 when he got a puncture, dropping him to P5.

              Baku: Rosberg on pole, Hamilton crashed out of Q3 and had to start in 10th and only managed 5th. There were a few laps of engine-issues where he couldn’t change the settings, but less then 10 laps later he was already driving fastest laps again.

              Austria: Hamilton on pole, could have stayed ahead of Rosberg after the final stops, but made a mistake in his lap. Rosberg pulled away, by the end of the race, Rosberg had serious brake-issues. Hamilton and Rosberg collided, Hamilton won, Rosberg finished 4th.

              Silverstone: Hamilton on pole, Rosberg finished 2nd but got a 10second penalty for “illegal help”. (team told him to avoid 7th gear because of gearbox issues). So 3d in the end.

              Hungary: Rosberg on pole, Hamilton won, Rosberg second.

              Germany: Rosberg pole, had a bad start, got a 5s penalty for his overtake on Verstappen, his team actually held him in the box for 8 seconds before going to work, which cost him 3d.

              Belgium: Hamilton had to start from the back, Rosberg pole, Rosberg won ahead Ricciardo and Hamilton.

              Italy: Hamilton pole, Rosberg won.

              Singapore: Rosberg pole, Hamilton only managed 3d. Rosberg won, Hamilton 3d.

              Malaysia: Hamilton on pole, Rosberg second. Rosberg actually got punted of the track at the start so had to return from the back. Hamilton had engine-issues and retired, Rosberg 3d.

              Japan: Rosberg pole, Hamilton 2nd, Rosberg won, Hamilton had a bad start and finished 3d.

              From then on it’s straight-forward Hamilton 1st and pole to Rosberg 2nd and 2nd. Rosberg didn’t have to do anything more anymore, so it was the smart choise. Rosberg had plenty of ‘issues’ during the season. Maybe not as much as Hamilton, but he definitly had them. Saying Hamilton lost the title purely based on luck is nonsense.

              He had plenty of races to win when he underperformed that would have closed that 5points-gap.

            2. Thanks, that exactly confirms what I said.

              So out of the 8 poles Rosberg got, Hamilton couldn’t participate in 3 of those sessions (China, Russia and Spa) and in Singapore he couldn’t work an a setup (car issues during 2 Free practice sessions). Rosberg had no issues in any of the 12 poles that Hamilton got.

              So a fair look at quali result would be 12-4 for Hamilton. Which would suggest he would have also won 3 poles from those 4 missed sessions.

              Which also meant that Rosberg had 4 more easy wins. Out of the 4 poles Rosberg did win on merit He finished only twice ahead of Hamilton. So that means Hamilton lost 3 or even 4 wins as well. Plus Malaysia.

              Hamilton would have won by a huge margin.

              Both had start system issues. Like Rosberg in Australia, Hungary and Germany. Hamilton had those also in Australia, plus Bahrain and Monza (and I think one more since Mercedes reported 7 issues in total) . Can’t fault either much for that.

        2. @f1osaurus
          Ah, good ol’ F1oclown, please don’t let facts stand in your way:

          Quali: 42-36
          Poles: 35-29
          Race: 32-22
          Ahead in 2 car finish: 37-27
          Retirements 7-8 (Did Rosberg actually had more bad luck than Lewis……?)
          Fastest laps: 19-16

          Hmmm, so either Hamilton was suffering a lot of issues, or, as usual, you have no clue what you’re talking about. (It’s the latter btw)
          To be short: Rosberg is a lot better than Bottas, and thus better than a larger portion of the grid.

          (But in reality, both Rosberg and Bottas are quite average midfield drivers (Bottas even more than Rosberg) who would have gone down in history as rather unsuccesfull midfield drivers had they not been lucky enough to enjoy the most dominant car in history paired with a slightly better than average midfield driver!)

          1. Yes lets talk about retirements only. Sigh. Just get lost with your cherry picked nonsense.

            1. You dont show any facts. Just blabla around your compromised opinion.

            2. @ruben I did show facts (in one of the other answers), but this should be common knowledge.

              Looking at only DNF’s is clearly daft. Hamilton had several of issues in Q3, had to start from the back of the grid or pitlane twice. Only 2 or three of the times that Rosberg qualified ahead of Hamilton it was on merit. So yes that DNF killed his WDC chances already, but the dozen or so other races where he was hampered by issues add even more.

            3. @f1osaurus – Using oconomo’s numbers from above for qualifying, Quali: 42-36. You’re saying that of the 36 times Rosberg started ahead of Hamilton, 33-34 of them were because of Hamilton issues?

              Or are you talking of 2016 only? If you’re only talking about 2016, then “get lost with your cherry picked nonsense.” They raced each other for more than one season and Rosberg was close each year. If you dismiss Rosberg all that means is Hamilton wasn’t that great, and that would be a hard fight to win.

          2. I’m surprised Hamilton didn’t beat Rosberg by more given Schumacher was matching him for raw pace at 43.

            1. @darrenmoore

              There was an article on Autosport (by Hughes or Noble I believe) back in 2014 which effectively states how we should reappraise Schumacher’s stint at Merc. Rosberg was an unknown quantity at the time, with Michael being very close to him, but not necessarily beating him, suggested that he had slowed down. In truth, Michael was probably just as good, its just that in he 4 years he was not in F1, the standard had risen so much.

              Rosberg eventually proved to be a top quality driver, capable of pushing Lewis to the edge, and eventually became World Champion (there is no such thing as an unworthy World Champion, as Jose Mourinho says, the best team wins the league because they finish the season with most points).

          3. Great argument. Despite the facts all you hear is how Rosberg won because Lewis had issues as if Rosberg never had any issues yet in their time together Rosberg had more retirements then Lewis. Also 2014 Singapore Rosberg was 20+ points ahead and qualified 2nd on the grid when a “foreign agent” caused his race to backfire on the grid before the race began, not to mention Rosberg in the final race had that issue that dropped in out of the points effectively a retirement as it dropped him from 2nd in the race to out of the points.

            1. It’s daft to just look at retirements. Hamilton started from the pitlane twice. Or from P10. Or was rammed off by someone. If you want to pretend that someone is faster because he qualifies or finishes ahead, you need to take those cases out. Not just the 10% of the issues the result in a DNF.

            2. Lewis had issues

              Plenty of issues trying to start the car and doing a poor job of it

        3. Can I have some of what @f1osaurus is smoking?

          1. @sprintcarfan Reality? Yeah it’s quite sobering. Not many people grasp it though.

            1. Why do the Bondo fans of this site persistently use incorrect figures with regards to anything related to LH.

              Ahh it must be because other accounts start using them like they are facts.

              I mean I just love the qualy one against Rosberg let alone the races.

              Championships are not run over four years (which he won anyway)

              LH won on average twice as many races regardless of where he started each championship year except for 2016 and even there he had more wins, poles and podiums!

              Only 2013 is an outlier where Rosberg inherited a win due to three retirements in front of him.

              He was a fast competent and bloody good racer but he still lost three years in four. Much like all of LH teammates do back when he was a kid.

              2016 changed him. He realised that mates or not the Buttons and Rosberg will do anything they can to overcome an innate talent imbalance.

              Try that now.

      2. Rosberg would have actually done everything with in his power to try and beat Hamilton.

        Bottas tries to honorably be faster, be polite and not rub anyone the wrong way, or assertively demand what he has got a right to in terms of strategic options.

        I really miss Rosberg, atleast he put up a fight.

        1. Oh come on. Bottas puts up a fight just as much as Rosberg did. Did you miss Silverstone 2019? Or Portugal 2020? And plenty of other races where they were fighting on track.

          Bottas does not have any strategic options, because Mercedes took them away form Hamilton. They don’t allow Hamilton to attack Bottas. So they won’t let Bottas take some desperate gambles with their race result just for the good of trying “something”.

    3. Im not so sure. In qualy he’s been very close but in the races he’s tends to make mistakes. He’s lucky Verstappen is the only one able to challenge his position. If the field was closer together, the gap to Hamilton would look a lot bigger, like in previous years.

      1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
        3rd November 2020, 9:47

        @fer-no65

        I’m also not sure with what you are saying. If the field was closer together, it is likely several wins would have been taken off Hamilton (reducing the large points gap between 1st and 2nd) I think in this situation, the gap could well actually be closer as there will likely also be less podium finishes by both which will certainly make the gap smaller.

        1. Several wins would have been taken off Hamilton, but Bottas would lose a lot more. I doubt he’d even finish on the podium in half the races if the field was closer.

      2. The major difference between them in this season seems to be race tyre management. More than ever before I think.

        I suppose really it’s just Lewis being faster, so he can take it easier and then has tyre life to extend the gap at the end of the stints.

    4. He gets an unfair level of flak because some people seem to think it’s realistic and normal for him to be able to consistently beat one of the best drivers to ever sit in an F1 car.

      But really, that’s not going to happen with someone like Hamilton, or Verstappen, or Alonso. Like it rarely happened with Schumacher, Senna, etc. And yet, there seems to be a view among some that goes something like:

      “Can’t beat a GOAT contender? Not good enough. That guy down the grid who beat a journeyman would be so much better.”

      1. True. Despite not being able to match Hamilton, Bottas is one of the best current drivers. Not as good as Hamilton or Verstappen but in the next tier with Ricciardo and Leclerc and better than the likes of Vettel, Hülkenberg, Pérez and Kimi who are imo also top 10 material.

        You only need to look at the likes of Albon, Vettel and Gasly (last season) to appreciate how good job Bottas is doing. He is not matching Hamilton but he is close. I’m not sure whether anyone besides Verstappen would fare any better.

        1. anon,
          I have to disagree with you on Kimi. Hamilton has been able constantly to hummer Bottas in races through superior tyre management. In that department, I personally think that Raikkonen is even better than Hamilton and only Alonso is as good as him and that was clear in the 2011-2013 years where the tyres where so fragile.
          In this Mercedes, Raikkonen has no business challenging Hamilton pace wise. However, in races where tyre management is king. I think he would have challenged Hamilton and gave him a serious headache more than Bottas ever did. Bottas is kinda like Jarno Trulli, great in qualy and poor in races.

          1. Kimi is nowhere near as good as he used to be. Bottas clearly looked better than Kimi at Ferrari while Bottas was at Williams. Vettel showed that year in 2015 what that car was capable of and he was well over 100 points of Kimi. Kimi had some bad luck that year, but so did Bottas. Kimi was only 14 points ahead of Bottas at the end of the season, and had he not taken Bottas out in Russia, Bottas would be ahead in the standings. Kimi has only steadily gone downhill since then. He still shows great skill at times this year such as his start a week back, but overall, Giovinazzi who is pretty week has looked as strong as him this year. Suggesting he would now challenge Hamilton more than Bottas does now is ridiculous IMO. Kimi with his skill from 7+ years ago maybe, but not now.

          2. @tifoso1989 That’s all a bit retro about Raikkonen. I mean we all saw how he performed at Ferrari relative to Vettel (relative to Hamilton). ‘Great at managing tyres’ when you trundle in way behind your main competitors sounds like you weren’t actually trying very hard. And when you’re starting towards the back of the grid, alternative tyre strategies and stretching them out is often what it’s all about. Not taking anything away from his talent. His flaw has always been his desire to compete, so-so compared to most other champions.

          3. @tifoso1989 The cars Raikkonen drove were kind on its tyres. The Lotus in 2012 and 2013 was the best at managing its tyres, and the Ferrari in 2017 and 2018 was the same. But what difference does tyre conservation make when Raikkonen is so slow? He couldn’t live with Alonso and Vettel in “tactical” races where it is about tyre preservation. What makes you think it would be any different with Hamilton?

    5. Lewis trying to spice up things again as countermeasure for the borefest Mercedes brings us year after year. And insulting Bottas along the way.. who really is not waiting for big brother Lewis to step in to defend him. Highly underestimated skill from Lewis .. his ability to mindf Rosberg and now Bottas.

      1. I don’t think that Hamilton can win with any comment that he makes because of his position in the sport. If he praises Bottas he is being patronizing and insulting, if he criticizes him he would be arrogant or whatever. I am not sure what people expect him to say about his fellow drivers. Regarding your Mercedes comment, it is crazy to me that you really think that it’s the team’s fault that you are bored. What do you expect them to do, tone it down a bit?

        1. You are absolutely right. I did not intend to blame Mercedes. They are a stellar team. But to the viewers it results in a borefest (due to others not catching up) and both Toto and Lewis are repeatingly artificially trying to add tension and make it appear a more close season than it actually is, which to me is insulting to the viewers and getting a bit old now. But I guess you are also right on Lewis not being able to win with any comments given his position. As to my point: I think Lewis’ skills when it comes to the mental game element where you try to influence opponents, is underestimated. It wont work on the likes of Kimi, Hulk or Max but many other of his competitors (and especially Rosberg) are very receptive of this.

          1. Yeah I know what you mean, mind games are a big part of it. Psychology in the sport is in general underestimated I think. With just tenths of seconds between drivers that little bit of extra doubt, confidence, stress etc. must make a huge difference.

            Also I’m sorry I didn’t mean to be rude about Mercedes, I’m not even that big a fan and would also like to see someone fighting with then. On the plus side, it’s one of the positives of the sport that there are usually other fights happening on track while Mercedes runs at the front unopposed.

        2. This is the only constructive comment I’ve seen so far. All others are obsessed with ridiculing Bottas. I think he’s the subject of total animosity from the uninformed of the comments of the biased F1 fans .

      2. It was like water off a duck’s back with Button when they were teammates. Different dynamic.

    6. What surprises me is that Bottas has a lot more trouble of getting the tires in a good shape. And thus loosing a good opportunity of winning the race. After Silverstone Lewis kept his tires much better compared to Bottas. The stint of Lewis on the medium impressed me this time. But also in Portugal it was obvious that Bottas struggles.

      1. @ruben The difference is the setup focus. Hamilton sets up the car for the race. To be kinder on the tyres. While Bottas almost always goes for the best setup for Q3.

        Just like Perez explained he was fully set up for the race and didn’t mind so much qualifying in P11. Could have taken a podium with that approach.

        1. @f1osaurus

          You constantly say this and I never see Mercedes or Bottas claim that the set up on his car up for Q3 compromises his race.

          If this compromises his set up in the race (which matters far more that qualifying) compared to Hamilton, it would be pretty dumb to do it. I just don’t believe this at all. Bottas would have learned by now if he could do better in the races by changing his setup. I genuinely believe that Bottas is just extremely strong in qualifying and just struggles a lot more than Hamilton in the races. But that doesn’t make him weak. What I do think he needs to change is to try and look after his tyres better rather than focus on trying to fight against Hamilton and that may help him towards the end of the stints / race like Hamilton often shows.

          As I said, if it compromises his race day setup, why on earth would he do it or the team let him?

          1. Well, just sitting in a Merc makes a Merc 1-2 likely. It could make sense to focus on Q to get ahead at the start. With Merc the first car gets pit priority in a normal situation. So you automatically have a backup for any VER undercut, if likely at all. It’s a track where it is hard to overtake so track position is king. It’s a plausible strategy for BOT in this situation.

            But having said that: there is ZERO evidence of this happening. So he could raise it as a possibility, but he shouldn’t state is as fact, which he does. But then again, more often then not I read his comments rolling my eyes

            1. There is a ton of evidence of this happening. You just need to read a bit further than this blog and a Verstappen fan blog.

          2. @thegianthogweed So Bottas is 0.1s faster in Q3 and 1.2 to 1.5s (minus maybe 0.8 for damage) a lap slower in the race. Pretty much consistently.

            You attribute this to what then?

            And yes Hamilton or his engineers have been quite clear that he set up his car for the race on a number of occasions. Plus he expressed that he felt confident that his setup would work better in the race than Bottas.

            Especially on the new tracks it was clear that he was looking specifically to get a setup that would work well for the tyres.

            As I said, if it compromises his race day setup, why on earth would he do it or the team let him?

            Why not?

          3. @thegianthogweed There are tons of examples and if somebody keeps a bit up to date on what the drivers are doing during practice than all of this would be common knowledge, but here are some quotes:

            Explaining why Hamilton was so much better on race pace in Portugal:

            Shovlin said the set-up direction taken by Hamilton aided his tyre management and warm-up, which proved particularly decisive against Bottas. The Finn’s pace faded towards the end of the opening stint, leaving him nine seconds off his team-mate in the lead ahead of the pitstops.

            It’s not just Hamilton, there are plenty drivers which point out that their Q3 performance should seen relative to their focus on race pace.

            Perez for instance about Imola:

            “It’s a shame [to get knocked out early] …”
            “In that regard I’m happy also with my lap, we just compromised a bit too much on race set-up for qualifying, so hopefully that can pay us some good dividends tomorrow.

            Besides you always see this effect when drivers have a bigger grid penalty. For instance for a gearbox change. Their Q3 time does tend to suffer because they need to set the car up for race pace and being able to overtake.

          4. @thegianthogweed Well actually Hamilton said he’d set up more for the race in Portugal, with the implication ‘more than Bottas’. Might just be his take but it actually makes complete sense in terms of how Bottas almost gets pole or gets pole and then is slower/harder on the tyres during the race. If Bottas knows he’s a bit slower, then winning pole has a double advantage: he can try to keep a faster team mate behind, plus he gets preference on race strategy (pitting for the undercut or overcut). Hamilton, meanwhile, sets up for the race and then tries his hardest to win pole on that, often successfully, but the margins are close. Similarly he has honed his race strategy brilliantly. When behind he manages the tyres and then pushes at the ideal time, often forcing an error from those he’s pursuing.

        2. Its also how he balances; or flattens, the car just before a sharp change of direction. You can see it from the inboard slo-mos. Just a barely imperceptible hesitation in his steering, so just before changing direction all four wheels are pretty much equally balanced. Ideal through the chicanes. Keeps the tyres alive.
          But its not a skill many can master to great effect. A few videos on youtube showing examples of this. Peter Windsor for example talks about it regularly as he is close to the driver coach Rob Wilson who has worked with Kimi, Stroll, Bottas and Montoya for example.

          1. Can you explain more about this. This topic is one of my favourite topics in f1. Most journalists dont talk about it, only maybe brundle but only occasionally. Neither do commentators much.. I wish there was more media and videos on this explaining it all as it’s very fascinating.

            I thought Peter Windsor stopped these videos as I was looking for them a bit back but there were very few videos on his channel?

            1. No he is back up with a new channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPwy2q7BNjdLYu1kM_OEJVw

              You will have to trawl through the videos, but he almost always discusses it in relation to the Spanish GP, and I think the French GP in relation to I believe Norris through the chicane half way down the straight. Luckily he tends to structure his videos from front of grid to back so if it is featured its usually at the beginning of the broadcast.

            2. @ Kasim As Ian says, PW still explains driving styles in his videos. He also talks about Rob Wilson coaching various techniques, including when to move over to the other side of the track for the next corner to avoid losing momentum. The main points are car balance, flattening the car (even distribution over the 4 wheels) before putting in sharper inputs of steering and/or acceleration, singling out HAM, VER and LEC in particular as exceptionally good at this. I still have my doubts about whether Leclerc’s feel for grip is the same as the first two, based on his relatively mediocre wet weather performances (usually).

          2. What about high speed? Would it not be harder to make this hesitation in high speed changes of direction or no?

    7. Jose Lopes da Silva
      3rd November 2020, 11:13

      Vettel trying to spice up things again as countermeasure for the borefest Red Bull brings us year after year. And insulting Webber along the way.
      Schumacher trying to spice up things again as countermeasure for the borefest Ferrari brings us year after year. And insulting Barrichello along the way..
      Mansell trying to spice up things again as countermeasure for the borefest Williams brings us race after race. And insulting Patrese along the way..
      Senna trying to spice up things again as countermeasure for the borefest McLaren brings us year after year. And insulting Berger along the way..

      1. Aside from Vettel, those other number ones never needed to talk up their teammate, they just consistently and conclusively beat them!

    8. Drivers I believe would comfortly beat Bottas (same car same reliability score 50% more points than him over the season):
      Leclerc, Verstappen, Riccardo, Hamilton (I know some seasons they’ve been closer than this but thats the special case of a bad result still being a distant 2nd)

      Drivers I believe would beat Bottas over a season 9/10 times but by a smaller margin:
      Perez, Hulkenberg, Sainz, Norris, Gasly, Kimi (on current form, in Ferrari years I put him in 50/50 group)

      Drivers I believe would be 50/50 with Bottas
      Ocon, Kvyat, Russel

      Drivers I believe Bottas would beat 9/10 over a season
      Grojean, Magnussen, Giovinazzi

      Drivers I believe Bottas would comfortly beat
      Latifi, Stroll, Vettel*, Albon* (*Based on current form, previous years they would both be higher)

      So based on this he’s the very definition of mediocrity, probably deserves his place in F1 but in a lower midfield drive not the Mercedes

      1. @yossarian

        Now that is harsh. Is it really Hamilton dominating Bottas that has made so many people rate him so low?

        in 2016, Force india was arguably level or better than WIlliams by the end of the year and Bottas easily beat Hulkenberg and has looked better than Perez almost every year too. Kimi on current form would beat Bottas 90% of the time? He’s being matched by Giovinazzi… in 2015, Vettel showed Ferrari was capable of getting close to 300 points. Kimi got 150 and Bottas very nearly beat him in what was clearly a weaker car.

        Even Sianz this year I would say hasn’t been better than Bottas. He may have looked good this year, but when Sainz makes mistakes, they usually are pretty big and that showed in Tuscany and Russia. Sainz was also basically being matched by a rookie last year and is close again this year. IMO that doesn’t show that much promise for Sainz. I don’t think either are better than Bottas has been on average across his career. Gasly is a bit of an unknown. He was shocking compared to Bottas when at a top team, and not that much can be proved against him if you rate Kvyat as low as you do.

        Kvyat level with Bottas? I think you will be in an extreme minority with most of the drivers that you think are level or better than Bottas. It basically looks like the absolute highest rating ability wise out of the 20 drivers is 11th position, with it being equal down to 14th. What it looks like you are saying is that there are 10 drivers on the grid that will beat Bottas 90% of the time or over that. Based on what has happened this year with Hamiton, Hamilton hasn’t even managed that.

        I think anon’s comment is much more accurate. With Hamilton being as good as he is, It is quite hard to tell. I think the only two drivers there is current evidence that are certainly better than Bottas is Hamilton and Verstappen. Ricciardo was pretty poor last year, certainly not as good as Bottas but I believe he may be capable of being, but we can’t tell at the moment. Leclerc will be in time I’m sure, but your suggestion of him beating Bottas by over 50% more points is a bit of a stretch. Each year, Leclerc shows signs of extreme speed, but also big mistakes. Those mistakes have consequences. He’s taken out himself and Vettel once this year then again he crashed out in Italy. He had more speed than Bottas, but makes bigger mistakes. At the moment, because of that, I could only consider him being roughly on Bottas’s level. He needs to be more consistent to be able to get that many more points. He would likely have lost his team around 50 points this year had it been a top team and he made the same mistakes.

        Bottas is not in the very top group of drivers, but I’m sure most would easily say he’s in the top 10 and I would probably say he’s in the lower end of the top 5. As I said, I do think Ricciardo may be more able and Leclerc will be far better in time. The only other easy two are Verstappen and Hamilton IMO.

      2. Michael (@freelittlebirds)
        3rd November 2020, 13:21

        @yossarian that ranking is completely based on a driver’s performance with a particular car and the last race. Russell is now in Kvyat territory because of the spin.

        For all we know, Bottas would have been a 4 time WDC if he was racing Leclerc making statements that Charles deserves more credit than he gets. From what I’ve seen lately, the driver can make the car but the car can break the driver.

      3. @yossarian Bottas beat Massa quite comprehensively for 3 seasons out of 3. Massa who was pretty much on par with Raikkonen.

        Bottas has good speed and he is reasonably faultless. Drivers like Perez, Sainz, Hulkenberg, Norris might beat him when they are having one of their good days and/or when racing on one of their favorite tracks, but over a whole season Bottas is much more consistent. That’s much more important than being fast and showboating to a single podium in a season.

      4. Apart from Leclerc, Verstappen, Riccardo, Hamilton, i wouldn’t be confident of any other driver on grid the beating Bottas. For instance, he’d trash Perez in qual but does Perez have enough armoury, during the race, to overcome qualifying behind Bottas? I’m not so sure

        1. @amam I would even doubt Leclerc could beat Bottas. He’s too inconsistent and error prone.

    9. I mean if Mercedes would let Bottas go on an opposing strategy, or go long, or short, or whatever he could feasibly do to fight back I think people would hold him in higher regard.

      1. Michael (@freelittlebirds)
        3rd November 2020, 13:25

        @rocketpanda the problem is that Bottas doesn’t have the pace especially towards the end of the race so he just can’t catch Lewis. I believe Lewis sets up the car for race pace giving himself an unbeatable advantage in the race something we’ve seen with Rosberg and Bottas. That takes away almost all options away from his teammates who are attempting to qualify close or ahead of him but have to sacrifice pace in the race.

        1. There’s just been too many times when Bottas is behind Hamilton he’s told he can’t do anything different to Hamilton, but if Hamilton’s behind Bottas he’s been allowed to. There’s obviously some decent pace in Bottas to run Hamilton as closely as he does but often it feels he has to be twice as good as Hamilton to beat him.

          1. but if Hamilton’s behind Bottas he’s been allowed to.

            Not really–see Austria 2020, Japan 2019 etc

      2. @rocketpanda The problem is that Hamilton makes much better use of such opportunities. So to achieve maximum fairness (ie to protect Bottas), Toto Wolff said after Silverstone 2019 that they would no longer allow this.

        but if Hamilton’s behind Bottas he’s been allowed to

        Well Silverstone 2019 is one of the (actually very few) examples and then there was a lot of sour faces and complaining, so Mercedes put an end to it.

    10. A very solid Schumacher-Barrichello type partnership.

      1. They are nothing like Schumacher-Barr

        Bottas/Ham get equal equipment, share data etc They are usually free to race and have equal chances unless a championship battle with another team is on the line

        1. I don’t see any proof it wasn’t the same for schumacher and barrichello, the performance was bottas-like, it seems to me like the stronger driver beats the weaker one, and then come the number 2 excuses.

          1. @esploratore Herbert even complained that he wasn’t allowed to see his own telemetry when he happened to be faster than Schumacher in a practice session. Verstappen drove Schumacher’s car and remarked that it was so much different that it was like driving a totally different car.

            There is plenty of evidence. If you let your mind open enough to see it of course.

    11. Sure sounds like Hamilton is clearing a path to the door. Is this doing a “Rosberg”?
      If he does, it will create (not a ripple) a tsunami in the driver placements.
      It should hand the WDC to Bottas unless RBR catches fire. It will also silence those saying that the Mercedes domination is … Boring.
      For me, bring it on.

    12. Well whatever makes him look better I guess.

      No point in saying that you’re only beating your teammate because he’s slow, is there?

    13. heres what. name a race where bottas or rosberg passed hamilton in a straight wheel to wheel battle.

      1. @f1fan-2000 Well I think Rosberg once did. Bottas also sort of did in Silverstone 2019 (he was overtaken by Hamilton and took the position back several corners later). But yeah it doesn’t happen a lot.

        1. Actually Rosberg did but was re passed shortly after.

          Not once did Rosberg pass LH on track in a commanding I now win manner in a normal race.

          The opposite many times.

          Bottas is in a similar boat.

          If you look back over the years almost any pass of Hamilton has been through complete tyre or fault offsets.

          I first saw him race karts (I was in the top 250 Gearbox championship thus sometimes appeared at the same tracks – later we would be a support on long circuits like brands etc so I was w@tching him from a young age) I watched Button in similar.

          He was and remains an absolutely amazing race battler and overtaker and it was as rare as anything I have ever seen

          An example – as a tiny young cadet novice he started all heats from the back (black plates) as all MSA license novices have to.

          In a really crap old kart he would be at the front of a 30 kart grid almost every heat.

          I used to notice it because I did the same. As an adult. With racing history behind me.

          He just did it at a very young age and against veterans of the class with real money behind them.

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