Max Verstappen, Red Bull, Red Bull Ring, 2021

Verstappen’s post-race burn-out celebration “will not be tolerated” again

2021 Styrian Grand Prix

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The post-race burnout Max Verstappen performed after the Styrian Grand Prix will not be allowed in future, the FIA’s race director Michael Masi has confirmed.

The Red Bull driver slowed to a stop on the pit straight as he finished the race and spun his rear wheels, performing a burn-out in front of his team.

However Masi took a dim view of the act and contacted Verstappen’s team “as soon as it happened” to warn them he must not do it again.

“It was not an ideal situation, which is why I spoke to the team immediately and told them accordingly that something that would not be tolerated in future,” said Masi.

Formula 1’s sporting regulations state drivers are permitted to celebrate after taking the chequered flag. Article 43.3 states: “the winning driver […] may perform an act of celebration before reaching parc fermé, provided any such act […] is performed safely and does not endanger other drivers or any officials.”

Masi may point to a previous incident at the Red Bull Ring as an example of how slowing at the finishing line can be dangerous.

In 2015 Nicholas Latifi ploughed into the stationary car of Roberto Merhi at the end of a Formula Renault 3.5 series race at the same circuit. Merhi, who was suspected to have slowed down in order to lay rubber at his grid position for the following race, was thrown out of the race weekend:

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2021 Styrian Grand Prix

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144 comments on “Verstappen’s post-race burn-out celebration “will not be tolerated” again”

  1. The biggest difference between F1 and IndyCar is in F1 the FIA has literally outlawed fun and in IndyCar often times the first question a driver is asked is whether they had fun.

    1. Yeah, it’s ridiculous! I hope the winner of this weekends IndyCar Mid Ohio GP does record setting donuts “just for fun!!!”

  2. Hahahaha, I’m sure the fans are going to love this.

  3. That’s a crock of crap, which is worse, the slow down or spinning his rear wheels? If it’s the rear wheel spin, standing starts are going to be tough to police.

    1. Didn’t Hamilton do a burn out on championship win after an earlier such discussion about them at a previous race? Something for Verstappen to be inspired by.

      1. AJC Westwood
        27th June 2021, 21:26

        Didn’t Vettel use to do this? Oh dear, I’m showing my age lol

        1. It used to be after almost every race

      2. @bosyber Yes, and it has been tolerated for winning the championship or the very last race of the season, but not immediately after crossing the finishing line as far as I can remember. There are other cars still racing at that point even though Verstappen had a big lead.

    2. @jt1234 @bosyber there is a huge difference between other “typical” celebrations, which are often held half way around the track on the way back to the pits, and practically stopping before you’ve even reached the checkered flag… And an even bigger difference between a minimal amount of consequential wheelspin at a standing start and an intentional and deliberate loss of traction during a live session. In fact, isn’t the latter what Bottas did, and it yielded him a three-place grid penalty…?

    3. It’s the slowing down as there’s been incidents in the past where a race winner slowed down infront of other cars and one hit him and got launched. I think we can all agree that doing any celebrations away from the finish line is sensible.

  4. The Merhi-Latifi incident actually came to my mind quite quickly. Max was lucky no one was close behind.

    1. How silly from Max. Could’ve taken a donut spot, chose to do burnouts instead.

    2. He probably wouldn’t have done it at that spot, then.

    3. @jerejj yes, lucky. Having just pulled up on the track coming from his outhouse in the Austrian woods, and being totally devoid of human communication, he had no idea whether someone would be coming up behind or not.

      1. I don’t think that’s the point. My immediate reaction was that was a bit silly. And I do loads of silly things

        1. that is exactly the point

    4. Coventry Climax
      28th June 2021, 0:09

      I had a similar life threatening situation last week. If I hadn’t seen the light turn orange and slowed down so well in advance to it turning red, it could have ended completely different.

      What a bunch of nonsense. The Merhi / Latifi incident was A) Latifi, B) there were a lot of cars behind Merhi, whereas Max was more than thirty seconds ahead of nr. 2, so noone there.

      I think mr. Masi was a bit anxious, not having to police anything and thus unable to pee up any pole. So for his own peace of mind, he just had to make a statement about something.

      1. Car in position no 2 was 30 something seconds behind but there are still lapped cars completing their race

        1. even those were not near…

          1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
            28th June 2021, 12:23

            @macleod
            That isn’t true.

            It does seem that some people are just looking at verstappen finishing and looking at the time gaps for hamilton behind and are not actually looking on the track behind Verstappen. Latifi was going past LITERALLY as Verstappen started doing this.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tr4gf_iae20&t=345s

            Look at 5:40. Latifi followed by A McLaren too. Even Crofty says that verstappen slows down to take the flag. If Verstappen had not controlled his burn out and oversteered to the right, he could have come to a standstil in the middle of the track – and Latifi likely won’t have had enough time to prepare, then there was the McLaren coming too. I personally think this should have been at least a reprimand for Verstappen.

          2. @thegianthogweed, Yes i saw in the background they were coming But your defination of near is different then mine. If they were near him when he did the burnout OR did he wait untill there were passed. That was not not seen but i think i am going to check on Lando or Laftifi onboard. You should use there video

      2. Exactly. Latifi had the whole of the track to position his car but for some reason is directing it towards the back of another car which had finished ahead of him, therefore at the very least would be in a slow down lap. Why? Was he expecting a slipstream or something?

        1. @Hairs_ He certainly didn’t expect Merhi to almost stop without an apparent reason, so 100% on Merhi.

  5. There’s three spots for donuts: Niki Lauda Kurve, Remus and Rindt.

    1. Electroball76
      27th June 2021, 23:08

      And just outside the McLaren pit box?

      1. Very good :)

      2. Just when shooting stunt scenes for one movie from the Furious series chapter.

      3. What an aim! XD

    2. @thegianthogweed “if verstappen had not controlled…” he is not Bottas

  6. Maybe Toto complained and asked for a 45 second post race penalty.

    1. or a new TD at least 20 pages how to celebrate when Red Bull wins.

    2. In 1989 Shobert moved up to the Grand Prix world championship riding for Honda. Unfortunately, Shobert’s Grand Prix career was cut short at the third race of the season, where he was involved in a terrible crash with Kevin Magee on the cool off lap after the race (Laguna Seca), wherein Shobert drove into the back of Magee’s motorcycle. Magee had stopped his motorcycle in the middle of the track and was performing a rear-wheel “burnout”. Eddie Lawson narrowly missed hitting Magee’s bike after he and Shobert had just finished congratulating each other moments and were not looking forward.[3][4] Shobert suffered severe head injuries but was able to make a full recovery after months of rehabilitation. He never raced again, taking instead roles as manager in some teams of AMA Grand National dirt track .

      1. @elchinero – Thank you for providing some context.

  7. Thank you FIA for killing our sport…

    1. @raddie This is a possible safety issue, as the Formula Renault 3.5 crash shows.

      1. @jerejj he pulled way off the racing line, there weren’t people on track and he controlled the car.

        Masi and all these spontaneous rule changes are tiresome. I’m not sure the title battle this year is worth putting up with all the other crap that comes with it.

        1. @antznz
          That isn’t the point. If every race winner starts doing this, eventually a point will come, where they go full Bottas and spin in front of cars crossing the line at max speed.

  8. the winning driver […] may perform an act of celebration before reaching parc fermé, provided any such act […] is performed safely and does not endanger other drivers or any officials.

    It was done safely. There was nobody behind him.

    May be we should stop racing at all. That is even more safer.

    1. @silfen on the contrary, there is a certain appropriateness in bringing up the Latifi-Merhi incident because Latifi was directly behind Verstappen at the time as Verstappen had just lapped him.

      Adam Cooper was present at the venue, and he was able to take a photograph of Verstappen in the middle of his burnout – https://twitter.com/adamcooperF1/status/1409235064118992900 – as Latifi was coming over the finish line to start his final lap.

      The external footage missed that, because the extreme close up on Verstappen’s car meant most of the track was out of view – but there definitely were cars in close proximity to Max.

      1. @anon Latifi wasn’t starting his final lap; he’d seen the chequered flag and his race had finished as well. Not saying that image doesn’t show danger, but as soon as a driver gets the chequered flag, everyone crossing the line behind will see it too.

    2. @silfen Yes, but what if someone close behind or similar distance as Latifi was from Merhi?
      This is a possible safety issue, and the Formula Renault 3.5 crash shows how badly things can go wrong.

    3. @silfen There was no one behind him but imagine driving on motorway and there is someone stopped in front of you. Even if you see him it is bloody dangerous.

    4. @silfen But there were lapped drivers still racing just behind him. Watch the video – Latifi and a McLaren pass him while Verstappen did it.

    5. I still think he did this completely safe, with no cars close behind, at the complete right of the track just besides the pit wall.

      Unlike Mehri, who did this in the middle of the race track. with cars much closer behind.

      But like I said, if we want complete safety we should stop racing!

      1. @silfen Merhi was pretty much as close to the pit wall.

  9. Pity – I quite enjoyed it. I understand the safety element but surely there was no one within a few seconds.

    1. Two lapped drivers were still racing just behind Verstappen – they can be seen in the video of the race highlights.

      1. Several hundred meters away and on the other side of the track.. POINT?

  10. The FIA and UCI are exchanging notes. As long as he pulled to the side I don’t see the big deal. What Mehri did seems to be different.

    1. @dmw He didn’t really pull any closer to the pit wall than Merhi.

  11. I dont know… I get people that will think this is killing “fun” and maybe they are right BUT… nobody, to my knowledge, has ever done this before. There must be a reason? It does whiff a little of cockiness but nowt wrong with that…as long as you dont break any “Rules”. Storm in a tea cup? Race control clearly think not. I’m of the opinion “meh”

    1. Oh what it was very common todo that in the past. I am getting old.

    2. It is now cocky to celebrate a race win. jfc.

  12. Next time take a cup of coffee, it takes a while before the second placed is there. I loved it.

  13. It’s becoming harder and harder to like f1… Been fallowing it since the 80’s but dang it indycar is so much better at the moment… Never thought I’d say that

    1. Dang!

  14. I’m sure verstappen wouldn’t have done it if Hamilton didn’t pit and was about 4 seconds behind

    1. RandomMallard (@)
      27th June 2021, 21:34

      The gap was 15 seconds and growing by the time Hamilton pit.

      1. Exactly, so it was not 4 seconds.

  15. Maybe they should ban champagne celebrations on the podium too in case someone gets hurt……

    1. Thats a good point! So the real problem was not safety, it was that doing it there is not sponsored / doesnt generate revenues. And we all know revenue beats everything

    2. The Ferrari spray in the one eye of marko was very dangerous.
      The man is old ( is that not dangerous too?)
      And the podium was very high, no railings or safety nets around it.
      All those people for the podium, think about it if one of the drivers falls off..
      Not sure if the sound level of the music was safe.. sounded loud.
      …..

  16. Mr Masi

    contacted Verstappen’s team “as soon as it happened” to warn them he must not do it again.

    Come on, Mr Masi, you’re relatively new to F1, and as far as I can tell, you’ve never driven a race car. You were born the year that my old friends Jodi Scheckter and Gilles Villeneuve did a one-two for Ferrari. Charlie Whiting signed you on as a deputy in 2018.
    You probably have the divine power to play bureaucratic damp-squib, but may I respectfully remind you that personal and team pride, a tad of adrenaline, and an intrinsic knowledge of time, speed and distance are basic attributes of all great drivers. A private word with the driver might possibly have been appropriate. Making this into a public spectacle is surely overstepping your role.

    1. Coventry Climax
      28th June 2021, 0:16

      That is a very kind way of saying it.

    2. I wanted him dismissed for Baku, but this time I’ll give him a break.

    3. +1
      agree

  17. Masi is like a teacher that tries too hard.

  18. His not banning him from celebrating. But he could’ve chosen better words. A burn out somewhere else safe is allowed

    1. Coventry Climax
      28th June 2021, 0:14

      How can the place he did it be unsafe if there was noone behind him for the next 30 seconds +?
      It’s croc.

      1. @Coventry Climax Hamilton may have been that far behind, but lapped drivers were ahead of him.

      2. There were two lapped drivers still racing just a few seconds behind Verstappen. If you watch the race highlight video you can see a Williams and McLaren pass Verstappen on the start/finish straight.

        1. Coventry Climax
          28th June 2021, 22:29

          Yeah, yeah, saw it. And saw Verstappen do it to the side of the track, leaving all the space for others. I still think Misses Masi behaves even worse than my grandmother.

        2. @scbriml A total of six lapped drivers reached the chequered flag before Hamilton.

  19. Isn’t 43.3 very clear? Why would it need this unwritten rule added to it? It wasn’t unsafe when Verstappen did it. It would have been unsafe if there had been a car behind, in which case 43.3 would have applied and he could’ve seen a penalty. 43.3 clearly leaves the door open for celebration as long as it’s conducted in a safe manner.

    1. There were two lapped drivers still racing just a few seconds behind Verstappen. It’s not about the gap to Hamilton, there were other lapped drivers physically closer to Verstappen.

      1. Then your argument would mean that no slowing, swerving, or any kind of “celebration” at the finish?
        Safety is safety, and you can make an argument using your logic that “cars are close to the leader, no finish line celebrating”.
        I hope the battle goes to the end of the year between HAM and VER, but right now, VER and Red Bull are getting the better of HAM and Mercedes. I say let them enjoy it. It’s been a few years for them.

  20. I did wonder when Verstappen did his celebration. Although there was plenty of room behind him, the race was still ongoing for the rest of the field.

    Whilst, I do feel his celebration was completed in a safe manner and wouldn’t have posed a threat, I do completely see where the response is coming from.

    1. Nikos (@exeviolthor)
      28th June 2021, 6:35

      If you feel that his celebration was safe then in what way do you see where the response is coming from?

    2. @maddme There were two lapped drivers still racing just a few seconds behind Verstappen.

      1. So? And they went down the straight on the other side of the track. Mute point you are making IMO.

        1. Well if they were close in theory it could be dangerous. Still I do not think that what he did was dangerous.

      2. @scbriml In fairness, from memory (which doesn’t always work great), I couldn’t remember seeing backmarkers, but, it validates the concerns of danger.

  21. Masi seems not to understand the regulations he is supposed to enforce. Nothing about what Verstappen did was in any way unsafe, and therefore it was 100% allowed within the regulations.

    1. what if he’d spun?

      1. Or exploded just near the pits.. my god..

  22. Verstappen’s post-race burn-out celebration “will not be tolerated” again

    Don’t agree with that at all.

    1. @johnrkh So you aren’t against any possibility of a Merhi-Latifi crash repeat, but on the circuit-racing level instead of a lower single-seater series.

  23. Jack McCallum
    27th June 2021, 22:52

    You all love max for doing this. However if this was Lewis, you’d be outraged and demanding some stupid penalty

    1. Jack McCallum No.

    2. Greetings.
      As you, I can also see phrases like “This Hamilton guy is disgusting, why show the gap to the car behind by almost stopping the car, he did so only because his machinery is sooo dominant bla bla bla…”
      I think it was part of the psychological battle, but man that was unnecessary. It looks like he wants to goad Mercedes to spent much time in developing this year machinery, personally I think that is not going to happen, so if he succeed this season it will be difficult to defend his belt next one.

    3. Interesting how people seem to make every topic about Hamilton..

  24. I can see where he’s coming from and I’m also against celebrations before actually winning the race, you never know something may happen that will prevent you from actually winning, but warning and no penalty was the right thing to avoid a repeat.

    1. Tommy Scragend
      27th June 2021, 23:31

      Verstappen didn’t “celebrate before actually winning the race”. The finish line is where the chequered flag is waved, which was before the point where Verstappen did his celebration. It’s not the same as the start line.

      The rule says that the celebration must be “performed safely”. It was – there were no other cars approaching. And it must not “endanger other drivers or any officials”. It didn’t there were no other cars approaching, and there were no officials on the track. Obviously.

      Nothing to see here. Presumably Masi was pre-empting a call from Toto.

      1. There were other cars approaching – two lapped cars (a Williams and a McLaren) were just a few seconds behind Verstappen and were still racing.

        1. you repeated this statement about 10 times now…
          They had a distance of several hundred meters and on the other side of the track.

          1. Coventry Climax
            28th June 2021, 22:34

            And they are F1 drivers, not your average sunday’s ‘let visit the family’ drivers. Although, in the case of Latifi, you might argue about that.

        2. And yet they were no where near where VER was on the track.
          Just repeating your same argument doesn’t lend credibility to it.

    2. @esploratore1 I actually remember the F3000 race at Monaco in 2003 where Bjorn Wirdheim had dominated that race but slowed right down to celebrate in-front of his team on the pit wall which allowed Nicolas Kiesa past to win the race at the line.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dnCcThfueRw

  25. Lol. So a driver has fun celebrating a victory. In comes race control.:”Lets not do this again.”

    I have no words.

    If there was someone behind and there was a crash, sure…

    But a burnout? Not like he spun the car infront of McLaren pit wall sid he?

    1. @jureo The point is what happened in this case. Instead, what may happen if drivers keep on doing the same.

  26. After that ridiculous penalty for Bottas in the pitlane, Massi had to react to this “Armageddon scenario” action from Max.

    1. But only after receiving a call from Toto

  27. Some serious people in denial in here. It was unsafe and stupid. Thankfully there was no incidents though so no penalty needed but its pretty fair for those in charge to ask for it not to be done on the pit straight while other drivers are still racing for the line. There is no problem with him doing a burnout, just don’t do it on a straight, its common sense.

    1. Exactly. My recollection is normally burnouts are done after the cooldown lab. Or in a run-off area.

      Let the marshalls and everyone else focus on the race finishing. Then do burnouts to your heart’s content.

    2. Serious denial! They think Max did something wrong.

  28. Masi is growing an itch of getting rid of him, he’s stepping too much on the development of the spectacle, trying to manipulate way more than i’m comfortable with. Let them race!

  29. A car comes into view as max does the burnout. It wasn’t HAM. It was another car. Max stopped his car just past the line which is why it was dangerous.

  30. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
    28th June 2021, 0:53

    I can’t believe the amount of comments here saying something among the lines on “noone was near him” That is entirely false. He had just lapped Latifi. Verstappen slowed down a bit even before crossing the line, then he almost came to a complete halt.Then as Latifi was approaching him to finish his race, this was when verstappen started his burnout. Had he not controlled it well and kept drifting to the right (could easily have happened – he likely would have come to a half in the middle of the track and Latifi probably would have had to take avoiding action.

    I think far too many people are just looking at the fact hamilton was 30 second behind and totally ignoring that there are back markers that were close to verstappen.

    This was dangerous from verstappen. It seems quite strange that after Bottas gets a penalty for something that was unintentional and 2 days ago in practice while Verstappen just creates a rule of not to repeat what he did.

    All this said, I don’t think Verstappen should have had a penalty, but at least a reprimand.

    1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
      28th June 2021, 0:56

      Sorry!, please ignore me saying verstappen could have come to a half in the middle of the track. I meant halt. You would really hope what i accidently wrote could not have been true….

    2. @thegianthogweed I wonder how many defending Verstappen lambasted Hamilton last year for his practice starts.

      1. Coventry Climax
        28th June 2021, 22:41

        Oh grow up. Sure, there will have been one or two. But to try and divide people? Very Trumpish. It says more about you than it does about any others, I’m afraid.

    3. @thegianthogweed He passed Latifi three laps earlier, so he was, I reckon, something like 10-15 seconds behind. Of course, the gap reduced quickly through speed difference.

  31. I hate the FIA/F1 race director!!

  32. I think the FIA should rule out racing with more than 1 car on track at a time, its far too dangerous.
    Lets just have quali type laps with only one car on track, see who does the fastest lap and declare them the winner. That will be so exciting and safe…What a load of @%^&* FIA, are you trying to destroy F1 completely?

  33. Most of you are being obtuse on purpose, it seems.
    Latifi was right there. The slide could have taken Verstappen to the middle of the track. The cool-off lap is when celebrations should take place, not when people are still racing.

    1. Wasn’t Max on his “cool-off” lap as soon as he received the checkered flag at the line?

  34. What F1 needs is one more rule…

  35. I think Max did that on purpose to show the world that Lewis so far behind, hence it was safe and within the rules. At Spa Circuit everyone does a spin because no victory lap and that how a car able to turn back to the pit lane at turn 1.

  36. I appreciate the sensible comments, though they seem to be outnumbered. Just wow.

    Let’s recap where we’ve been over time:
    HANS devise – bad
    Halo – bad
    A warning not to repeat a unsafe action on a live race track, not even a penalty, just a warning – ruining the sport!!!!

    Grid girls – good

  37. Oh good, more rules.

  38. It was quick and calculated burnout. But I agree with Masi doing it at the checker flag should not be allowed.

  39. Lots of people saying he was 30 seconds up the road. There are other lapped cars doing their race, the next car wasn’t Hamilton and a warning is appropriate, he wasn’t penalised and now the other drivers and teams know.

  40. Verstaten isn’t even in the same ball park as Hamilton. He hasnt even got one world championship. He’s a bus driver.!

  41. Jeez. They’re really just continuing to try & remove any fun & personality from the sport. If you think what Verstappen did was dangerous in any way, leave the house at some point.

  42. Adam (@rocketpanda)
    28th June 2021, 11:12

    Fun? In this sport!?

    NOT ON MY WATCH!

  43. And this is why VER and his fans are insufferable. If he collided with the back markers doing his stunt immediately after the checkered at the line they would want a rule for a blue/yellow flag so the slower cars stay out of the path of the winner.
    And why do I think the new Honda engine has a fuel delivery system based on Ferraris from a few years ago?

    1. Because you struggle with change? Because you cant accept someone can beat Lewis? Which one is it?

      1. Both i guess..

    2. Coventry Climax
      28th June 2021, 22:54

      Who says I’m a Verstappen fan? And I’m not from YOU, and not from US.
      It’s not about who did it, it’s about what was done, and about mr. Masi having to pee on it again.
      “If he collided”, which he didn’t. That’s the point, you are trying to see trouble where there is none. You may well expect F1 drivers to know who’s on track where, both the ones crossing the finish first as well as the backmarkers.
      “the new Honda engine”: What new Honda engine? Probably just because the rule book is so thick nowadays, that you didn’t read it, or otherwise you might know that they are allowed to use a couple of engines in a season – of the same spec.

  44. When he slowed right down, I did think, huh? Not seen that before, kind of dangerous if he makes that a habit… which seems to be Masi’s reaction too. No penalty, just told don’t do it again. Had it been potentially more dangerous yesterday, he’d probably have got a penalty. I don’t see the fuss.

    1. And as for why Max did that celebration, possibly more interesting. It had a ‘championship win’ feel. And it wasn’t about his own driving, as good as ever, it was about acknowledging his team and saying, basically, thanks for giving me the definitively best car this season (hence the chance to win the championship). Worth noting.

  45. Is it still OK to do it on the cool down lap?

    1. Yes, but Ive noticed in the last few years that the driver waits for the rest of the cars and the safety car to go past before doing it. Or somewhere completely off track in a safe place. Expect the Brits to do it at Silverstone.

  46. I don’t necessarily have an issue with this as I don’t think it’s Masi saying drivers can’t celebrate with burnouts/donuts & stuff after the flag but more him simply saying to do it in a safe way.

    The ‘outrage’ from some reminds me of that penalty Alonso & Webber got after that post race ‘taxi ride’ at Singapore in 2013. Fans jumped on how the FIA were banning fun & how it was a fun moment like the famous Senna/Mansell one in 1991, Yet they ignored that the penalty wasn’t actually because of the taxi ride but because the FIA felt it was done in an unsafe way. Alonso had stopped in the middle of the track around a fairly blind corner & Webber had run onto the track with cars having to swerve to avoid hitting him.
    https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/analysis-why-webber-and-alonso-were-punished-for-taxi-ride-4469319/4469319/

    What they did was fine but the way they did it was not & I suspect the same is true with this.

  47. Funny how this article has more comments than the post-race one. I am a fan of Max and thought it was a bit unneccessary. I can certainly see the reasoning behind the warning and the directive for avoiding in the future. All in all, much ado about nothing.

  48. I wish Max would save the engine. Do the donuts when you win the championship.

  49. If it won’t be tolerated again, why was it tolerated this time.

  50. Look, it’s OK for SLH to do it, it is also OK to go spinning sideways down pit lane out of control, Mercedes can do this sort of stuff, but it is not OK for Verstappen to do a completely safe celebratory burnout at the end of the race. Don’t you get it?

  51. No one is concerned about Steiner giving Maszepin a top as a “gift”? That was brutal. Masi should investigate.

  52. Whoa Whoa Whoa, F1 have an Aussie in charge but are against burnouts?

    Maybe lizard people are real after all.

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