Red Bull’s failed bid for another Hamilton penalty troubles the FIA and enrages Mercedes

2021 Hungarian Grand Prix

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The two-page document issued by the stewards rejecting Red Bull’s request for Lewis Hamilton’s British Grand Prix penalty to be reviewed contained some fascinating details.

But the information it did not contain was perhaps even more telling. The reactions it provoked from the FIA and Mercedes certainly were.

Its final paragraph referred to allegations made by Red Bull in a letter which were not revealed in the stewards’ summary:

“The stewards note, with some concern, certain allegations made in the competitor’s above letter. Such allegations may or may not have been relevant to the stewards if the petition for review had been granted. The stewards may have addressed these allegations directly in any decision that would have followed. The petition having been dismissed, the stewards make no comments on those allegations”.

Clearly the stewards considered the allegations serious enough to draw attention to and acknowledge them. The admission it was potentially a cause for “concern” shows the stewards were spooked by whatever Red Bull said.

Max Verstappen, Red Bull, Hungaroring, 2021
Verstappen wanted a tougher penalty for Hamilton
It also prompted a furious reaction from Mercedes. Shortly after the stewards’ verdict landed, they issued a statement directly accusing “the senior management of Red Bull Racing” of an attempt to “tarnish the good name and sporting integrity of Lewis Hamilton”.

In case anyone thought this was referring to Christian Horner’s earlier, furious criticism of Hamilton at Silverstone, Mercedes made it plain their complaint also included “the documents submitted for their unsuccessful right of review”. Their sporting director Ron Meadows, trackside engineering director Andrew Shovlin and motorsport strategy director James Vowles all attended the video conference hearing and had access to the documents.

The right of review process Red Buyll availed themselves of has a simple requirement: the stewards must be shown a new piece of information they missed the first time around for a review to go ahead. Red Bull did not clear this bar.

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But they went to extraordinary – and expensive – lengths. Alexander Albon pounded around Silverstone on a private test day in one of the team’s old cars re-enacting the line Hamilton took through the corner. Sergio Perez beavered away in their simulator doing the same.

But the data used as the basis for all this came from the original collision. Therefore it was not new, and therefore it failed to meet the essential test for the stewards.

Had the stewards given the go-ahead for a review, Red Bull would have needed them to find a reason to apply a further, more severe penalty. Claiming the original penalty was too lenient as it did not take the consequences of the crash into consideration – as Verstappen did today – would cut no ice, for the reason FIA F1 race director Michael Masi gave at Silverstone.

The stewards originally ruled Hamilton was “predominantly”, rather than “wholly” to blame. To justify a harsher penalty, Red Bull needed them to revise their view and come down even more strongly against Hamilton.

As the stewards’ explanation indicates, Red Bull were trying to prove Hamilton’s line into the corner was only ever going to result in him leaving the track, and that the contact with Verstappen was inevitable. Red Bull are understood to believe Hamilton needed to brake considerably earlier for the corner than he did to avoid a collision.

In an interview with RTL, Helmut Marko called for Hamilton to be given a ban. But Red Bull is believed to have been tilting at the more realistic goal of a grid penalty for this weekend’s race – a serious compromise at the Hungaroring, where overtaking is especially tough.

Lewis Hamilton, Jarno Trulli, Albert Park, Melbourne, 2009
Analysis: Is Hamilton’s driving as spotless as Allison claims?
But whatever penalty they desired, the forcefulness of Red Bull’s stance against Hamilton in their unpublished letter clearly pushed buttons at both the FIA and Mercedes.

How far did Red Bull push it? Mercedes accused them of disputing Hamilton’s “sporting integrity”, which suggests they felt he did something worse than an error of judgement in good faith.

Whatever it was, as Hamilton’s account of his post-race conversation with Verstappen indicates, relations between the world championship rivals have reached a new low.

“I did give Max a call after the race,” said Hamilton, “to just check if he was okay and and let him know that the respect is still there.

“But obviously it’s perhaps not reciprocated.”

Quotes: Dieter Rencken

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2021 Hungarian Grand Prix

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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117 comments on “Red Bull’s failed bid for another Hamilton penalty troubles the FIA and enrages Mercedes”

  1. I’ve found the Red Bull aggressive attitude in very poor taste. They are acting as if Hamilton deliberately t-boned him or something, the aggression of Verstappen appears to be continuing into this weekend from the interviews I’ve seen. I’m sure Hamilton understeered into Max carrying too much speed, but he was alongside on the inside. They are acting like he came from way back and punted him off. No, he didn’t do that. The bitterness continuing into this weekend with this daft review, Red Bull need to diffuse their driver but someone will get hurt properly with this kind of attitude. I’m worried tbh.

    1. I don’t like Max and I dislike Hamilton. I don’t care who of them wins the title. I just want to see them battling as they’ve been doing all season. May the best win.

      Red Bulls behaviour has been pathetic and very unsportsmanlike. I understand the outcome of the British GP hurt them. From their viewpoint I can understand they feel that Hamilton got away easily, even though I feel it was a racing incident with a very unlucky outcome for Max. They are fighting each other hard and so an accident was likely to occur wt some point. The stewards ruled Hamilton was at fault. They penalised him for the infringement they concluded was there, disregarding the outcome of the infringement. He got lucky with the red flag and won the race.

      Can Red Bull be unhappy about that? Sure. I don’t blame them. But take your losses and focus on the next race. It has been 1.5 weeks ago.. move on. Their behaviour and comments have been damaging Hamilton, Formula 1 and most of all, it is hurting themselves.

      Unlike you I am not worried, though. This is a rivalry that will make the on track action between the two even better. This is a rivalry that will go down into the history books along with rivalries like Hunt-Lauda, Hamilton-Alonso, Prost-Senna, Schumacher-Hill. The best is yet to come.

    2. It really seems like since the weekend at Silverstone, due at helm of RBR have massively stoked ego their golden kid and the statements made to press are reflective of that. Unfortunately that attitude from RBR wont change and neither will the behaviour of their golden kid.

    3. i am just wondering where the heck did Hamilton find the speed to even get alongside Max? it looked as if Max was standing. And that was without DRS, must have been some sort of nitro button LH must have pushed to get there, incredible..not commenting the crash, everyone did already

      1. Different line going in to and coming out of Luffield and the slipstream all played in to effect. I was at Silverstone and the whole weekend in the junior races there were some great overtaking opportunities going to copse being created by taking the alternate line at Luffield and squaring the car up sooner.

      2. They also have a certain amount of electrical energy to use per lap, it might have been Max used all his defending prior to the run up to Copse. We simply don’t know.

    4. If it was Lewis that crashed they’d be defending max saying it was a racing incident

    5. I think unfortunately RBR’s management will only make the situation worse. Ive been a fan of Max since we was in karting, but his ego gets in the way a lot. This is not surprising though. Hes a young kid being groomed for success. Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso et al were the same when they first came into F1. But over time, each has matured. But ever since Max has come to F1 RBR have almost refused to blame him for anything. The collision with Ricciardo in Baku being the most egregious. The de-brief was enough to convince Ricciardo that the team was becoming Verstappen’s team and he would be second fiddle and he left. That alone is staggering. That mentality will sadly continue and the refusal to accept any responsibility

      Horner’s accusation of dirty driving is just plain stupid. Hamilton’s been in F1 for 15 years. He’s always been hard but fair. Every pundit will admit to that. Between the two of them, Max is the one who’s regularly gone too far, even mandating an update of the rule book for moving in the braking zone.

      1. Max reminds me so much of Schumacher! Very demanding, very fast, extremely ambitious BUT will throw his toys out of the pram if it doesn’t go his way. Don’t get me wrong I have always appreciated Schu’s talent and his achievements reflect that BUT he would find a way to stop you winning if he couldn’t, exactly the same as Max. Red Bull have been starved now of any real success for years and are quite bitter so are blindly pushing Max, along with his father Jos, who let’s face it was nothing more than a back-marker in F1. It truly is quite distasteful to see the RBR egos taking F1 towards a dark place! Viewers will turn off if this rubbish continues in the stewards room. Let the drivers race and let the fan’s see wheel to wheel as it should be.

    6. Max has had his own share if incidents, including one with his team mate..

  2. Mercedes (and the rest of the paddock) should just ignore this behavior and and move on. All I can think is that Red Bull is trying to play mind games at this point because they are no longer confident of winning a straight fight for the championship. Either that, or Liberty is fueling this soap opera back stage, which also leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

    1. Red bull’s real interest was never getting anything changed. Their main goal was to try to get inside Hamilton’s head. They’d also like to pressure the stewards so they’re less likely to make calls against Verstappen.

      1. @slotopen yes I suspect this is bang on. Its all part of Horner’s array of weapons to get to the opposition. Its been a while since he’s had to use them.

      2. I think that too. However when you take it as far as they have it is only them being harmed by the war of words. They have used valuable Testing and Simulator time to try to prove something happened that didn’t (They could not have found anything untoward from the sim work as they would have submitted that as evidence if they had). Max is now probably more angry than ever and the teams minds have been on attacking Merc and Hamilton rather than focusing on Hungary and the rest of the season. They have probably also now seriously harmed their relationship with the FIA and Stewards which is not a good thing either and along with that have probably lost a lot of Fan support. This has not been a good look for them. I have been watching F1 for a long time and have seen many crashes like the one we saw at Silverstone. I have never seen another team airing their dirty laundry in such a public way and I don’t ever remember seeing another team moaning about the cost of repairing the car in such a public way…

        One thing is for certain. Max has to now drive like an angel or Red Bull and Max will look ridiculous.

        1. Infact I pray that I don’t see Max cause any accident, it would be very interesting to see the reaction of Red bull. This the first time I’ve seen a team mown like a baby about an accident which I believe as racing incident. There has been worse accidents far worse than this even that there wasn’t this shameful and disrespectful reaction by any of the teams affected.
          Infact red bull has lost their good image with FIA and the steward and thus going to affect them so badly. And Max being reckless and aggressive I can’t wait to see him in another accident. He’s so inexperienced and this tension his team have created with affect him profoundly more than it would for Hamilton. I believe Hamilton can deal with this mind games but could Max do the same? Naaaa.
          What a disgrace by Red bull bosses and team!😞

        2. Very well said 👏👏👏

      3. @slotopen In which case, I think they’ve backfired against Lewis (they’ve tipped their hand that Red Bull are less resilient than Mercedes) and will at best have had no effect on the stewards.

  3. After reading most F1 driver’s and journalist opinions that it was simply a racing incident, I really don’t understand why RBR threw so much into an ill conceived, weak protest so early in the season. It just smacks of desperation which seems odd at this stage of the season given their competitive advantage. Is something bigger going on behind the scenes at RedBull? I just worry Max gets sucked into Horners ego trip and burns a few bridges further down the line. Let them race like they have their entire careers and leave Horner and Wolf to their little handbag fights.

    1. Hmm, a thought arising out of your comment: Is this Horner trying to build Merc as Max’s enemy so that he’ll never sign with them when Lewis retires? It’s a long game to be sure.

  4. I think Max will only ever be a multiple WDC away from RBR. It’s such a toxic environment, only serving to blow smoke up his backside. Between his seemingly “pushy” (and I think that’s generous) Dad and Horner/Marko as leadership he’s destined to become a very controlled person. Lewis made his step to freedom at Mercedes, away from the controlling Mclaren and Ron. Max should do something similar in the future to ensure he develops as a decent human being if nothing else.

    1. You’re only controlled if you allow it yourself. You could argue Mercedes are now controlling Bottas.

  5. Too hell with that whole bunch at Red Bull, especially that Horner for his inflammatory statements.

  6. Another example (if necessary!) of the immorality with which this energy drink company handles itself in formula 1.
    No one doubts the integrity of the team’s workers, but yes of their owner and top managers.
    It is no coincidence that the most aggressive, violent and unsportsmanlike driver of the last decades is in his team.
    It’s not by chance.
    A real shame for the category, it doesn’t deserve to have these sinister characters.

  7. NeverElectric
    29th July 2021, 23:14

    I guess Max will not end up at Mercedes when Lewis retires, then.
    Shame, that, aye?

    1. Hmm, that’s actually an interesting angle to this episode. Maybe Red Bull management trying to set up a road block to Verstappen jumping to Mercedes by souring relations between them?

      1. Your commen is noted and 100% correct but with this souring relationship will merc ever want such a high profile trouble maker ..with so few friends..

    2. Alonso rejoined McLaren after having tried to blackmail them in giving him more preferential treatment over Hamilton and was part in landing them a $100 million fine. So the teams can overcome a lot of bad blood if it suits them.

  8. Pfff….You start to wonder If both teams have time left to race this weekend. I’m beginning to hope mclaren or Ferrari get a win to wake them up again.

  9. As a more or less neutral spectator it was funny to watch them going at each other for a while but it’s starting to turn into a farce now.
    It’s not been F1’s first crash and it’s not going to be the last one.
    I even reached a point where I wish the FIA would activate it’s (in)famous “bringing the sport into discredit” paragraph and inflict some random penalties on both parties like they tended to do here and there in the “good” old days…
    On Mercedes for their constant and super annoying lobbying and even influencing the race director with a fake newish chart and on Red Bull, well, just as a disciplinary action for beeing a petulant child and the enormous amount of ressources, money and time they are wasting…

    1. I’m with you on this. The levels that these two teams have lowered themselves has not shown them in good light nor the F1 for the public and fans to see.
      It’s like two children arguing who pushed who and then telling their view of the story to the teacher. I sort of get it, this race is strategically very important for both of them and they both want the WC very badly. This is Red Bulls biggest chance to grasp the trophy that they once had years ago and for Merc, it’s a trophy they’re use to having and don’t want to give it up. They both want the win.

      I would like to see both take a higher road and act more professional, keeping their emotions in check. They really need to show a better example to the public and their fans on how to act in a situation like this, just look at how their fans have been reacting, coming out and yelling at each other like they’re in the playground during recess; its ugly and demeaning with lots of hatred being expressed.

      I would think both FIA & F1 need to sit them down and put the kibosh on this and get everyone back to racing.

    2. @roadrunner as an aside, it turns out that the document is neither fake nor new, as you suggest.

      It turns out that the document that Mercedes sent extracts from was issued by Charlie Whiting back in 2015, and it was part of the briefing notes he used prior to races until his passing. It seems that Masi had never seen that document though – so it’s true that he didn’t recognise it, but that’s because it was Whiting who produced it, not him.

      1. That is a very generous interpretation. The document was neither official nor used as a guideline for stewarding.
        Presenting it to the race director as if it was part of the rules of engagement (apart of the fact that it didnt really correspond with the crash) is a little bite naughty imho…

        1. @roadrunner If true, then that casts the stewarding between 2015 and 2018 into question. What is the point of briefing competitors to do something different from what stewards are advised competitors should be doing?

  10. Red Bull’s failed bid for another Hamilton penalty troubles the FIA and enrages Mercedes or How many times is is it mathematically possible to write the same article without using the same word order.

    1. Well to be perfectly honest, in my humble opinion, of course without offending anyone who thinks differently from my point of view, and by considering each and every one’s valid opinion, without offence I honestly believe that I completely forgot what I was going to say. :)

      1. I wish there were more fans like you. We need more of this

  11. Thinking back to the 2018 British GP where Kimi took out Lewis assisting in a win for Vettel, didn’t Lewis and Mercedes publicly make suggestions (“Interesting tactics, I would say, from their side”) that the Ferrari intentionally took him out? The fact that Kimi also got a ten second time penalty for an incident where the Mercedes couple continue racing and not put its driver in hospital shows how lenient Lewis’ penalty was this time round was. I know the stewards say the can’t take consequences into account but I can’t believe that. Imagine Max being critically injured or worse – killed. Would we have seen a ten second penalty?

    Happy for the relationship between these teams to remain low as I miss the genuine hate-filled rivalry days of Ferrari and McLaren. I loved the tense battles we saw in Lauda Vs Hunt and Schuey Vs Mika. Could be a classic year.

    1. Interesting comparison, thanks for that @tone. It’s pretty much an identical incident, albeit at much lower speeds. I think that the consequences should not be taken into account, but the corner speeds should. After all, it’s a very different incident into Fairmont Hairpin than into Copse.

      Red Bull were right to try to get a review but to suggest that Lewis did it on purpose is simply vile, just like Lewis not owning up to the mistake.

      1. If you follow that to it’s logical conclusion then drivers will be incentivised to only overtake on slower corners which would make it a much duller watch. Remember Verstappen overtaking flat out on the final straight bend before the last chicane at Spa a few years ago – noone has ever seen that before,. It was fantastic. I think the stewards mostly do a good job these days of trying to keep the racing clean and the racers honest without discouraging racing and overtaking, which tbh is what makes it so watchable.

    2. @tone it gets even more interesting when you add the times Lewis tapped the back tyres in recent years. And the 2 times he punted Albon out of a podium place..
      There definitely is a pattern visible. Is it really intentional or is Hamilton a little clumsy… Given the track record he has doesn’t intent seem more likely?
      Especially everyone from GB seems to think Hamilton is some kind of Saint.. the rest of the world is less convinced. Maybe it is good that the pressure is applied to prevent him from applying those “interesting tactics”.

      1. Hamiltons incidents with Albon were common incidents we see all the time in F1. Hamilton also apologised for them both publicly and personally to Albon. It is not like we expect to see a driver never crashing. However most drivers on the grid say say that Hamilton is the fairest driver they have ever driven against. That does not make him infallible but it does say something about the general feeling of his opponents. Given that most drivers (Including I believe Albon) thought the incident with Max was a racing incident, I think people asking for harsh punishments are way off the mark. Max could have avoided that crash just as much as Hamilton could have. Max has to take some of the blame for ending up in the wall.

        We can’t go around having penalties based on severity of the outcome, that would make a mockery of racing. You have to punish the rule infringement not the outcome. How many times have we seen drivers taken out of a race and the perpetrator stays in it and gains points? It happens all the time and it will keep happening. 10 seconds is a pretty serious penalty when races can be decided by a few seconds or less. The fact he drove so well and got a bit lucky with a red flag are just part of F1.

    3. @tone What you advocate is penalty by outcome, which the FIA strictly forbids its stewards to do. Hence Red Bull being obliged to go down the deliberation/unusual recklessness route for their appeal. (Also, hence why Mercedes took umbrage at the case – there is simply no way for Red Bull to advance their case without indicating that Lewis’ driving was worse than the stewards originally judged it to be).

  12. Thinking back to the 2018 British GP where Kimi took out Lewis assisting in a win for Vettel, didn’t Lewis and Mercedes publicly make suggestions (“Interesting tactics, I would say, from their side”) that the Ferrari intentionally took him out? The fact that Kimi also got a ten second time penalty for an incident where the Mercedes could continue racing and not put its driver in hospital shows how lenient Lewis’ penalty was this time round was. I know the stewards say the can’t take consequences into account but I can’t believe that. Imagine Max being critically injured or worse – killed. Would we have seen a ten second penalty?

    Happy for the relationship between these teams to remain low as I miss the genuine hate-filled rivalry days of Ferrari and McLaren. I loved the tense battles we saw in Lauda Vs Hunt and Schuey Vs Mika. Could be a classic year.

    1. Firstly Max went to hospital as a precaution not because he was injured. That was a sensible thing for him to do but that is very different from him having to be treated for injury in hospital. Secondly this is F1, In very slightly different circumstances he could have been injured or he could have carried on in the race. We see those fine margins all the time in F1.

      As for the Kimi incident. It is not unusual for a team to suggest foul play in the heat of the moment. It is however unusual to see the lengths red bull have gone to.

  13. I have little sympathy for either team but I think I dislike Red Bull more. At the moment of the crash I thought it was too convenient for Mercedes and Hamilton winning the race definitively made the whole affair sour and difficult to swallow for me. I think most fans think it was a race incident and I tend to agree if only we consider Schumacher or Senna antics “race incidents”. The most interesting part of the write up is this “ Clearly the stewards considered the allegations serious enough to draw attention to and acknowledge them. The admission it was potentially a cause for “concern” shows the stewards were spooked by whatever Red Bull said.”

  14. Neil (@neilosjames)
    29th July 2021, 23:55

    Very unimpressed with Red Bull. From a very neutral (well, I bought a McLaren face mask, but other than that) ‘fan of the sport’ point of view, they’ve come out of this looking worse.

  15. I think the stewards ruling the appeal inadmissible, due to a very restrictive interpretation of the “new evidence” requirements, is a convenient (for them) way of closing the matter without having to grapple with the substance of Red Bull’s claims (which would appear to be explosive, as this article suggests).

    If Red Bull are confident in their conclusions they should take their evidence to the WMSC, and let them take whatever steps are appropriate.

    1. i would be horrified to go further if i was redbull, because a) they claim they simulated the accident, which is fallacy (they cant simulate a car that they dont have technical info about, because simulation and animation are not the same thing, they can simulate their own car, they can only animate mercedes car), b)it opens can of worms as mercedes would rightly ask how did they gather mercedes technical data/driving characteristic aero stuff etc etc… after this, it would be redbul who would be in hot waters and have a lot to explain! WMSC would most likely consider this a racing incident having known ham and max (their respective driving styles and collusion avoidance of either) this far… redbull are only making themselves a laughing stock and damaging their own image!

      1. The point is @mysticus, if Red Bull genuinely believe Hamilton to be a danger to his competitors then they have a duty to see that raised at the highest level. It would be slightly strange to just give up when the stewards have dismissed their case on what is basically a technicality.

      2. I don’t think they submitted the simulation data as evidence. Which suggests it did not throw up anything conclusive. The Stewards said that the evidence they submitted was nothing new.

        1. No they actually said it was manufactured- created. In other words it was entirely false evidence.

          In a court of law this would have had serious consequences

    2. @red-andy WMSC avenue is closed to Red Bull, as this was an in-race penalty. The only available route is the Swiss Court of Arbitration, in which case they can expect a decision in 2025 at the earliest.

  16. Lewis and Max are at a new low. Well Boo Hoo.
    I can kind of understand Red Bull appealing but I feel they’re letting their emotions get in the way of reality.

  17. Sam (@undercut677)
    30th July 2021, 0:21

    In the midst of all this drama is one obvious truth: always take the inside line into a high speed corner against your championship rival without trying to avoid a collision. The guy on the outside will almost certainly DNF while the car on the inside might be able to go on and benefit from it. Worst case scenario, both are out and no harm done. This seems like an obvious and maybe deadly cheat code.

    1. I think max will take your advice, and this time around he will get himself a race DSQ and BAN by F1/FIA for a next race to stop this madness getting emotionally silly and unnecessarily dangerous vendetta/revenge mission.

      1. Sam (@undercut677)
        30th July 2021, 0:57

        @mysticus Why would he get a DSQ or a ban if these type of incidents are at least a racing incident and at most a 10sec penalty? Even if it is a stop and go, if penalties are blind to the a car’s limited grip in high speed corners and the difference in predictable outcomes between the inside and outside car, this is very much a cheat code. Not taking sides, just stating the obvious.

        1. @undercut677
          Max has been doing this cheat code for far too long too many times. Only reason he didn’t come together with others is because others have a brain inside their skulls instead of an empty cavity. Don’t need to argue this point as Max is known by the whole paddock of drivers. All of them has a confrontation with him. And my point stands, like in Bahrain, redbull max complain about a situation, and they get burned and cry wolf afterwards. Max in any situation is the most unsportment person in the paddock, with his rude and arrogant attitude before and after incidents as well as towards race directors too. When given direct order, he always choose or challange to ignore it first. I don’t know how he got away with so many incidents is beyond me, stewards are just too lenient towards him despite lots of complaints when people have to back out or gets pushed of track, he doesn’t get many warnings or penalties. It’s only problematic when people behave like him.

          1. Sam (@undercut677)
            30th July 2021, 19:45


            You are saying that Max, often does what Hamilton did into high speed corners, but doesn’t crash (he has 0 penalty points) because the car on the outside backs out. Can you not see you just proved my point that, because of the way these incidents are judged, a car on the inside loses very little by overtaking a rival into a high speed corner without attempting to avoid contact?

            I could care less about Max and I would rather neither of them win the championship. You are attacking a strawman and proving my point. Glad you agree.

          2. @undercut677

            you are funny and quite the joker face :) glad to see people like max with a cavity inside their skull… it is very entertaining to see them twist and turn stories the way they always like to see and hear

        2. @undercut677 It’s only a time penalty at worst if neither deliberation nor unusual recklessness can be shown. A pattern would reveal it to the stewards, even if it was different drivers taking up the “trend” each time.

      2. The Hamilton move is already registered. He specialises in hitting red bulls this way.

    2. The driver on the outside can back out of the corner (which Hamilton has done a few times this season), they don’t have to commit to the outside. If the driver does go in too hot on the inside they’ll just got flying off the track.
      The other point is the driver on the inside doesn’t always get away with it (Hamilton had damage), and other similar incidents such as grosjean and sainz at the same corner had both of them off to the barriers

      1. Sam (@undercut677)
        30th July 2021, 1:54


        Whether the driver on the outside backs out or not, the driver on the inside benefits from not avoiding the collision. If the driver on the outside backs out, the one on the inside takes the lead.

        I didnt say the driver on the inside always gets away with it but they will almost never end up in worse shape than the one in the outside who will be out of the race almost every time. This is just the reality of the physics involved. Worst case scenario, both are out.

        The physics at play will put the car on the outside in high speed corners at a huge disadvantage that can be exploited if those incidents are determined to be racing incidents or 10s penalties. Not taking sides, just pointing out the obvious risk/reward.

        1. You’re absolutely right, I’m not good at anticipating the results of an accident, but my father said 90% chance hamilton came better off immediately after seeing it.

    3. This is not bumper cars at the fair or sim racing. No one goes into a 180 mph 5G corner in an open top car trying to hit anyone. Maybe people don’t appreciate the speed watching the tv coverage but if you see these cars live you would realize that’s absurd. No one could be exploiting anything. In this case Hamilton broke a wheel which could have sent him into the scenery in maggots or Stowe 200 mph. So if you use this incident as the test case it fails.

      1. Sam (@undercut677)
        30th July 2021, 2:32


        I never said the car on the inside would try to hit someone. I said they would drive to not avoid a collision. They can take a wider line (like Hamilton) or carry a bit more speed. This is completly within the control of the driver. Its odd to claim that this last race proves me wrong when Hamilton clearly benefitted from the situation. Sure he was helped by the red flag but that flag is usually what happens now when a car hits the wall coming off a fast corner at those speeds. Replay that sitiation 1,000 times and the inside car will almost never end up in worse shape that the outside car.

        1. Which is exactly why Max dives up the inside when he can; like T6 last race, Spain etc, and why he was desperate to close off the inside (but failed when he was sold the dummy) going down the old pit straight.
          It becomes an issue when a driver/team make clear that part of their strategy is to rely on the guy on the outside taking avoiding action to prevent a crash.
          It becomes an accident when the other driver decides he will play by the same rules.

    4. I think I would agree with you if Hamilton had speared into the side of Max. The reality is that both drivers had an opportunity to avoid contact. Neither did.

      1. Sam (@undercut677)
        30th July 2021, 19:38

        One was overtaking and the other one was being overtaken. The guy being overtaken has to leave enough space for the other car and not make any sudden movements. It is not the role of the car being overtaken to avoid contact at all cost, that is silly. Even if they were close to side by side does not change the fact that Hamilton was coming from behind and trying to overtake. It is his responsability to avoid contact if the driver in the front does not go out of his way to hit him (which Max didn’t). The implication that the responsability to avoid was shared is based on a misunderstanding of the rules.

  18. If any F1 news outlet has the access and chops to get a copy of RBRs letter it’s this one. I’m looking forward to reading it over coffee tomorrow morning. Or RBR might leak it—I don’t see them just calling it day now.

    1. I do not see them leaking it out as it could prove legally troublesome if they do. If there are allegations in there that can be challenged in court then they are going to have to have some serious evidence to back them up.

  19. Red Bull probably accused Hamilton of intent trying to kill Verstappen. It is exactly the kind of accusation Marko and Horner et al would make.

    If so, i can understand why the stewards and Mercedes found it very troubling.

    Utterly disgusting behavior by Red Bull.

  20. Hey guys I heard there might be a race this weekend. Any news?

    1. Yep, Lewis avoided a race ban an can drive.
      Let’s hope he doesn’t make to many errors.

  21. I don’t see that Lewis did anything wrong. I hope he does the same thing again. It’s great he celebrated a fabulous victory in front of home fans. And I hope Max comes back strong and we get some more great races. Love the wheel to wheel racing. I don’t like what Red Bull have done since. Sour grapes. Shame about that.

  22. …they felt he did something worse than an error of judgement in good faith.

    Well duh, everybody knows it but nobody is saying it. Like Senna and Prost and Schumacher and Hill and I don’t have the expertise, but no doubt countless others. Moves like these in a world championship fight aren’t accidents.

    Hamilton was willing to take the risk and it paid off. Just as he would have in 2016 when he was goading Rosberg into attempting an overtake.

    When these drivers; at the top of the summit, the peak of all peaks will billions of dollars behind them; see an opportunity to win the championship especially against the odds, they will make the most of it. Plausible deniability is the name of the game.

    So sick of the low-key ignorance pretending everything is on the up and up when we know in this sport it’s anything but.

    1. @skipgamer And this is the kind of disgusting, baseless accusation that Mercedes are rightly upset about.

      Utterly unacceptable.

    2. I am sorry but this was nothing like Schumacher/Hill or Senna/Prost.

      With regard to the Senna/Prost incident, Senna had already said he was going to crash into hime before the race even started!

      With regard to the Schumacher/Hill incident, Schumacher knew if they both failed to score points then he would win the championship and so quite blatantly purposefully crashed into Hill with the intent of taking him out of the race!

      That is very different from all the other incidents we see where two drivers refuse to back down and come together, or drivers make a mistake and crash into another driver.

    3. @skipgamer He chose the wrong line, exactly like Max did. Lewis can only be said to have done what he did on purpose to the extent that Max could be said to have done so (in my book, neither did so at all).

      Pretending that something untrue is “obvious” does not help your argument.

  23. Redbull has made this really ugly. They misjudged the situation by their overwhelming anger. Now both teams and drivers will become very aggressive and title fight could turn very ugly.

    1. If you think that using legitimate routes of protest is somehow uglier than putting your opponent into the wall at one of the fastest corners of the calendar, then I think you have your priorities wrong @AMG44

      1. Could max not have slowed and gone wider at that corner? Thus avoiding an incident?

        1. You mean going off the racing line onto the dirty part of the track? No, probably not. Hamilton was the one trying to overtake and had plenty of space on his inside to use but chose not to for whatever reason (we’ll never know the truth). This is all getting really boring now – lets just move on.

  24. How much more money has RBR wasted to produce this ‘evidence’ considering the complaints they’ve made about the cost of the crash, they seem to be going out of their way to spend more of the capped budget on fiction.

    1. They used a two-year-old car, which means it’s not part of the cap. Of course, they’re entitled to get the fees off of Mercedes’ (capped) budget if the FIA had found in their favour and ordered Mercedes to pay the legal fees (which is possible if the problem was found disqualification-worthy).

  25. Fred Fedurch
    30th July 2021, 6:51

    “I did give Max a call after the race,” said Hamilton, “to just check if he was okay and and let him know that the respect is still there.

    “But obviously it’s perhaps not reciprocated.”

    What were you expecting, Chump?

    1. Given he was laughing when he said it, I would guess he expected just that.
      And it was definitely a laugh, as opposed to the smirks from RB when they were talking about Hamilton ending up in the fence in Spain if he hadn’t have got out of the way.

      1. Given he was laughing when he said it,

        That’s how Lewis “shows respect”.

        1. Respect is earned, why should Lewis show respect to anyone who deliberately and maliciously stirs up racists to attack him and makes libellous attacks on him? Max had his respect until he played make-believe like a child, I don’t think Horner and Marko ever had much respect by any driver, but especially not since they started a factory dedicated to mentally destroying every promising driver in their academy, to the point where they had to recruit from outside. Apparently this temper tantrum they have thrown for the last week and a half is what happens when they don’t get their own way… I wonder what they were doing to their academy drivers behind closed doors? Respect… get out with that, never.

          1. So as I said and you now acknowledge. Lewis does not showed respect to max.

  26. Thank God there’s a race this weekend. I’m so done with the whole Silverstone saga.

  27. Red Bull spending money on a filming day to get Albon to recreate the incident is the most hilarious thing I have ever come across in F1. Lack of awareness there is unfathomable.

    I want this to go away as much as the next fan, but I suspect RB have crossed the line in this letter, and I’d like to see Mercedes take that issue back to the FIA. Would be funny to see RB sanctioned for that on the back of their own appeal.

  28. The other Olivier
    30th July 2021, 9:14

    Mission accomplished by Red Bull:

    They managed to get under the skin of Mercedes AMG and Lewis Hamilton.

    1. I think they have got under their own skins far more though.

  29. to be honest, I kinda understand why Red Bull was so riled up about this. they surely felt persecuted in the past about Verstappen racing style. but when the winning rival did they run away with it almost like no consequences caused. but Red Bull should learn this. their drivers could take more aggresive stances in future races. Verstappen is a hell of racer and he’s a lot better than he was couple years ago. if he got elbowed, elbow ’em back. just that luck of their rival is know no bounds and they gotta be careful about that.

  30. RocketTankski
    30th July 2021, 9:24

    Poor old Albon. “Hey Alex, we want you back in a Red Bull F1 car. How soon can you get here?”… Ah, dammit!

  31. Every single one at Red Bull are a bunch of dishonorable cowards. Except a few of them.

    1. I agree and the same goes for Mercedes (and Ferrari by the way). Hopefully the 2022 cars will see these 3 teams at the back off the field for the next decade. What a poor leadership these teams have shown. It is beyond believe.

      1. I get your point, but I hope they won’t be replaced by Stroll sr. I think this is the effect of being at the front of the grid with multi-million euro’s at stake every week.

        1. Logic: every single one … except a few
          So not ever single one?

      2. Mercedes is because of the Imola handling? And Ferrari I’m not sure…

  32. Hamilton simply wont get away with his behaviour anymore. So Mercedes will have to get used to teams no longer accepting their entitlement approach. That much has been made clear. FIA not doing anything is hardly a surprise. First of all since it was a just a racing incident (with Lewis to blame, but no intend just clumsiness). Secondly since it was a first lap incident, so the penalty seems proportionate. Lewis then still winning was expected to if your car is on average 40/50s ahead of the rest of the field under normal circumstances. Lewis not owning up to it is him throwing himself and his team under the bus. The latter he doesnt mind since he does it whenever he doesnt win. So we’re used to it.

    1. Are we also going to see Max no longer bullying his way around the track? Expecting the other drivers to move out of the way or face a crash?

      1. The bully was called Lewis Hamilton. You missed that one…

  33. Red Bull seem to have taken over from Ferrari in the “If we can’t win on the track, we’ll win in the courtroom” stakes.

    To think they used to be F1’s ‘rock and roll’ team.

    1. DarkSchneider
      30th July 2021, 11:02

      remind me who have complained to FIA about flexibility and time of pitstops ? ….
      And who have been complaining about McLaren not being happy about Bottos move in Pits in Austria ?

      RedBull are not being subtle on this move, but Toto Wolf has not been very subtle this year also.
      They are both playing this game .
      Hamilton is not that innoncent when it comes about mindgames ….

      Verstappen has some lack of senses of responsability.
      He is arrogant, and sometime irresponsable, for sure.

      But Hamilton feels like being hypocrite sometimes.

      Both RB and Mercedes staff and drivers are forgetting some what sportivness and wisdom are, lately …

      1. Flexibility? Well both RB and Merc complained about the others flexibility. We do know that the FIA took action on the rear wings. Not so sure whether any action taken on the Merc front wing that RB whinged about. Did RB complain to the FIA about that? Or was that just for the Sky cameras?
        Remind you also about pitstops? Well McLaren (Seidl) said they went to the FIA with it because they spotted some areas of concern. Is that the answer you want? And given Mercedes, Ferrari and this season RB all use the intelligent guns, anyone with a good zoom lens could have spotted it and reported it. Believe the Race, Autosport? and some others have all said it was a common practice up and down the pit lane.

  34. The stewards note, with some concern, certain allegations made in the competitor’s above letter. Such allegations may or may not have been relevant to the stewards if the petition for review had been granted.

    This is the interesting sentence for me in the stewards decision, because it can be read one of two ways, and I’d love to know which way the stewards intended it.

    1. The allegations made by Red Bull were serious and potentially had merit, but given the burden of “new evidence” relating to the incident, they weren’t able to investigate these allegations.
    2. The stewards believed that the allegations made were serious and spurious and their concern stemmed from the fact that Red Bull was making unproved, potentially damaging allegations against another rival.

    There really should be more transparency when it comes to these kinds of things, as we’ve seen in the past, releasing half-truths and veiled insinuations only leads to absurd speculation and guess work on the part of pundits and fans, which, on consideration, may in fact be exactly what Formula 1 management wants.

    1. Spot on! If it’s 1 and ‘the evidence’ proved it but was inadmissible, then the stewards have reason to be concerned as it’s a safety concern. 2 is bad as well, but it’s not a safety concern. There’s always the ‘bringing the sport into disrepute to handle that, if it continues.

    2. I’m sure RB have every intention of getting this letter out. So we may actually find a 3. to add to your list.

    3. My feeling is that if it was with merit then it would have been accepted as evidence. I am not sure anything is inadmissible if it is backed up with fact.

    4. As I read it.

      Rbr showed compelling evidence that the move by Lewis was intentional. Such evidence was backed by the fact that a driver with more than 20 years experience and a history of using this tactic on cars on the outside does not make these moves unintentionally.
      Alas the evidence presented does not fit the criteria and are not allowed on formal grounds.
      The stewards are shocked by the implications of these evidence but are unable to use it to review.

      1. But knowing what horner later stated, maybe only part right.

    5. I suspect:

      3. The allegations were serious, the stewards aren’t officially allowed to admit they read them closely enough to know if there was any merit to them because the new evidence bar (which has to be objective) wasn’t cleared, but they suspect from that skim-read there may not have been enough evidence to back the allegations to the extent expressed.

      1. (Adding: I believe the objective of the stewards was primarily to head off any future dodgy tactics of this type at the pass, while deliberately not judging/specifying whether this was an example of the genre or not).

  35. Mercedes doesnt need Verstappen. They can have in a near feature Lado Norris which suítes the team atitude best than VERS. Lando it is way more profissional than VERS and not so conflictuous

  36. Jennifer Kay Handley-Bridges
    5th August 2021, 0:22

    I starting really disliking RBR after their treatment of DannyRic, who is such a talent and class act all the around. Then the way they handled Gasly was disgusting. Just shameful.
    Regardless, they have created a very poor sportsman in Max, such an unlikable fellow in so many ways. But man do I love to hate that guy…it makes the race so much fun, to have someone to root against. Yes, he is great F1 driver, but absolutely classless. Just ask Danilll Kyvat …ha!!!

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