F1 team mate battles at mid-season: Raikkonen vs Giovinazzi

2021 F1 season

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Now in their third season as team mates, the contest between Kimi Raikkonen and Antonio Giovinazzi has taken a fascinating turn in 2021.

Previously it’s been nip-and-tuck between the pair of them in terms of one-lap pace. However over the opening half of this season, Giovinazzi has decisively held the upper hand. When Raikkonen pipped him by less than two-hundredths of a second at the Hungaroring, it was only the second time he’d lapped quicker than his team mate in qualifying all year.

Giovinazzi hasn’t just been ahead, he’s been markedly quicker, regularly beating Raikkonen by more than three-tenths of a second. What he isn’t doing, however, is converting this into consistently better results.

Of course it hasn’t helped either that Alfa Romeo regularly find themselves outside the points. The fringes of the top 10 were only just in reach when the revision to the rear wing regulations struck, which team principal Frederic Vasseur admitted led to changes to their car.

As a result his drivers have mustered just three points scores between themselves. Raikkonen is narrowly ahead, though factor in the points he lost to a contentious penalty at Imola and the scoreline would be further in his favour.

With Ferrari Driver Academy members, a hotshot Sauber-backed rookie and even a Mercedes driver potentially in the frame for a place at this team next year, Raikkonen and Giovinazzi could do with making a clear case for themselves to continue if they want to be on the grid again next year. The present situation is not quite a no-score-draw, but it’s little better than that.

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Kimi Raikkonen vs Antonio Giovinazzi: Key stats

Kimi Raikkonen vs Antonio Giovinazzi: Who finished ahead at each round

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Kimi RaikkonenQ
R
Antonio GiovinazziQ
R

Kimi Raikkonen vs Antonio Giovinazzi: Qualifying gap

Times based on the last qualifying round at each race weekend in which both drivers set a time. Negative indicates Kimi Raikkonen was faster, positive means Antonio Giovinazzi was faster

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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41 comments on “F1 team mate battles at mid-season: Raikkonen vs Giovinazzi”

  1. This 41y old kimi is no benchmark.
    He would be smashed by the likes of Perez and Bottas in the same car.

    We can conclude the Alfa is a better car than we think and Gio is lucky to have spent a few seasons in f1 when he leaves.

    1. @trib4udi Kimi is performing nearly the same level since he left Lotus-Renault after 2013 season. He has been generally subpar when comparing to his own previous performances for years already. The guy is old now for Formula 1 standards, but nothing changed much because of that. Or else he couldn’t be the driver who gained the most positions in starts (the main reason why he’s slightly ahead of Giovinazzi in race results).

  2. I won’t be surprised to see 2 new drivers here. 1 rookie and 1 Bottas or 2 rookies.

    1. @sumedh Two rookies simultaneously on a season of considerable technical reg changes, I doubt, but Bottas + rookie or Giovinazzi + rookie, realistic.

  3. I have to agree with the two statements above. Having Raikkonen in the Alfa is like having Rossi on a Yamaha. If the main objective for the team is to maximize points in the championships, then perhaps it’s time for other drivers to step in. No denying Raikkonen has made his mark in F1 and needs a big hand for his contribution to F1 racing but it’s time based on his performance & finishes this year.
    I have to say Giovinazzi has greatly improved from two years ago, he’s learned a lot, matured and brings the car home way more than he use to but I just don’t see him improving more than what we’re now seeing and perhaps, again better if AF brought in another driver to better help maximize points for the team.

    Granted it may not be the drivers and before having to say that two drivers should be replaced on a team due to low finishes, you also have to wonder/ask if it’s the car and the team thats been hurting these two drivers from doing better? Perhaps, but I still think if you put a Albon, Illot, Schumacher, Bottas or even a Hulkenburg that AF may do better overall.
    Next year is a massive year and all the teams need to be at their best to get the new car going and scoring points.

    I would like to see Bottas & Schumacher team up at AF.

    1. @redpill, I’ve been thinking the same. Bottas and Schumacher would seem like a good pairing. Bottas, for all the stick he gets, still has some fast years in him and has much experience. I can imagine it would feel quite pleasant to naturally be the lead driver in a team too. Schumacher’s main problem at Haas isn’t the slow car, it’s the difficulty in proving himself. When you have 2 rookies it’s tricky to see if one or both have great talent when measured just against each other. The blunt truth is that Mazepin is viewed as a fairly weak driver, so out-performing him is expected anyway.

      1. @geekzilla9000

        You’re spot on with Schu., I don’t see him developing as well as he could at Alfa, I don’t think its even close between the two teams. As you said Haas has a very weak second driver, so no help there on improving, then you have the team itself which can be safe to say they’re not great at developing a car and setting it up for tracks, so again Schumacher is being hurt there as well; he wont know if its him or the car.

        Despite the negatives that Bottas gets, he is considered very good at setting up the car, know how to made adjustments and knows how to push the car to capitalize on qualifying and he has won many F1 races.
        If Bottas and Schumacher both go to AF, then Schu. will be pressed hard to keep up with a winning driver and will be introduced to way more to settings in a car with suggestions from Bottas. He’ll have a really sounding board to bounce off.
        If Schu. stays at Haas, he’ll just be put into a holding pattern for another season, no real budget, not really learning anything (at least valuable to winning), low rated co-driver and he’ll just have to wait biting his time for another opportunity to hopefully join another team in the next season (2023). It will be like when Russell went Williams (with Claire & Latifi) and with Lando going to McLaren (with Sainz). I think it will be significant for any rookie going to AF compared to being stuck at Haas.

    2. I don’t know: Bottas in a low field car, even below mid field?
      Even in a Mercedes, the fastest or second fastest car on the grid, he was being overtaken by a Williams. He’d probably qualify decently in some races, and then lose 4-5 places before the first corner and another 3 in the first lap (if he had qualified so good to be ahead of 8 cars in the Alfa).

      By being for 4 years in 2nd or 3rd place it seems he lost his racing skills. Can’t remember him being that bad at wheel to wheel racing in the Williams.
      I do like Bottas, seems like a very good person, but as a racer? I don’t know.

      1. You can certainly look a Bottas’s recent performance in the last two seasons, especially this season and see a falling off in performance, no doubt but then you look at the other prospects who can get the Alfa seat and have to say Bottas comes out on top. If Botta’s gets the flick at Mercedes and wants to stay in F1, he’ll have to really suck in the pride as his only two real options is either Williams or Alfa Romero. Which team would you rather choose between the two?

        To be honest, I might take the chance with Williams over Alfa. Williams has made a complete turn around, the days of Claire and her methodology has been tossed into the can and their not looking back; they have new owners inserting big dollars, new clean sheet of paper, new engineers and management with owners that are honestly giving the team the chance to greatly improve; they’re no linger in just survival mode, hemorrhaging assets. It’s been showing this year, with this easily being their best season in years, they’re no longer carrying the infamous Red Lamp.
        I see them going up and up in the next couple of years, how does Alfa compare to that? I don’t think Alfa has the same budget or fresh attitude right now like Williams does and that could greatly effect them with the new chassis’s coming next season. I think a lot of it will also depend on how well Ferrari develops the PU for next season compared to Merc; that is an unknown. I can see Ferrari showing up with a very strong PU next season; that will be a relief to Haas and AF.

        It will be a very tough and humbling decision for Bottas. It will be interesting to see where he goes and even more interesting if gets to stay at Merc? We shall see soon

        1. Generally it’s far easier to turn something mediocre into decent\good than something good into great, so what I’m saying is that given merc engine is atm far superior to ferrari, it should be relatively easy for them to claw back some deficit.

  4. Didier Rouillon
    13th August 2021, 9:52

    Listened to enough rubbish any true racer wants to drive the best no point blaming Kimi, the car is not quick enough, its that simple, I’d be fed-up seeing tge back of a ferrari, Mercedes or an Audi driving a fiat punto. You guys should say it like it is both guys you mention Bottas an Schumacher junior would not no better in the present alpha romeo.

    Reply moderated
    1. ” You guys should say it like it is “

      Like there’s Audi’s in F1?

  5. I think Bottas saving grace if Mercedes boot him is that there seems to be a concensus experience is going to be “more” important next year… this may help him get a seat.

    If Bottas stays at Merc…. where does Russel end up, is it a foregone conclusion he stays at Williams?

    1. You have a good point, if they decide to keep Bottas. Then the silly season really perks up.

      Maybe Russell jumps ship (I wouldn’t blame him one bit) with possibilities of maybe heading to McLaren or Red Bull. I don’t see any other team worth jumping to that is available to offer a seat. I bet Ferrari would love him but thats not an option with their current line up.

      Ricciardo is definitely on the hot seat, his days at McLaren could be cut short? McLaren is getting very serious about doing well, a Lando-Russell line would be interesting. Red Bull loves flipping drivers, so it can be very safe to say that Perez is also on the hot seat. RB getting Russell from Merc would be a Coup d’etat for them and a total mind F*#$ to Merc and spice things up; taking one of Merc’s biggest assets away from them. I would think Russell would do better than Perez or anyone else that RB could acquire. It’s just a matter if Verstappen would want Russell driving next to him; plus it would be a risk for Russell if Marko decides to give him the flick as well (he loves doing that), then what does that do for Russell’s career?

      1. I’m pretty sure verstappen doesn’t fear any team mate, in fact he would like someone better than perez to actually bring the fight to mercedes.

      2. And let’s be honest, marko and horner keep firing drivers cause they’ve been subpar, did they fire ricciardo in 2018? No, he’s the one who left, he wasn’t as fast as verstappen but red bull management was ok with that, they’d be silly not to.

  6. Giovinazzi has been very impressive in qualifying but needs better starts – a strength last year, but not this. Also, Alfa do seem to have a tendency to put him on strange strategies. As for Kimi… I appreciate his presence for nostalgia purposes, but really he’s been pretty poor. Some bizarre mistakes and clearly hasn’t got much pace left.

    I think Giovinazzi deserves to stay, but I wouldn’t be surprised to see an all-new lineup. Alpine are overstocked on the promising young driver front – wouldn’t be surprised to see Zhou or Piastri there, as I think Sauber’s own Pourchaire may need another season in F2. And in the other seat… I’d say Hulkenberg over Bottas. Knows the team and he’s a better driver anyway, and presumably cheaper.

  7. Kimi and Gio is a very solid line-up. Gio has improved his consistency and Kimi still has it. Changing the line-up ahead of drastic new regulations would be extremely silly.

    1. @huhhii

      Kimi and Gio is a very solid line-up. Gio has improved his consistency and Kimi still has it. Changing the line-up ahead of drastic new regulations would be extremely silly.

      Always on the weird opinion, contrary to common sense. Sometimes everyone is held by surprise and those opinions are actually the correct ones, even if counterintuitive. But in this case (and most of the things you comment anyway) it is not. Again your comment is largely a nonsense.

      1. @rodewulf Oh man if I could care a single bit about your opinion, but the truth is I don’t.

        1. Oh man if I could care a single bit about your opinion, but the truth is I don’t.

          But then you cared enough to comment? I’m not impressed by your logic at all.

        2. @huhhii But you’re a die-hard Kimi fan so, it’s more fun to just watch and enjoy, to hell with logic, isn’t it? ;)

          1. @rodewulf I really have no idea what’s your issue. Do you hate Kimi and all his fans or is it just me? I hate anime btw and think people watching cartoons are pretty much wasting their life so we’re kinda even here. But I hope we could still discuss F1 politely.

        3. @huhhii We can discuss it without any problem if you don’t take anything as a terrible offense, because it wasn’t. If you’re not a die-hard Kimi fan, just act differently from one!

    2. @huhhii, I’m totally with @rodewulf on this.

      Kimi and Giovinazzi have not been doing well, their performances this season can be viewed at best as mediocre, they’re worse this year compared to last year. Neither are performing at a top level and can probably be said that there’s quite a few other drivers that will be available next season that can beat them if placed in the same seat. Giovinazzi has definitely improved from his drives two years ago, he been bringing the car home way more often than he use to, he matured as a driver but were probably seeing him at his best right now and may not excel more and no way will he’ll be getting a Ferrari seat, why invest in that?
      Keeping Kimi at Alfa is like keeping Rossi at Yamaha, it doesn’t look like a promising future worth investing in either.

  8. I like Raikkonen but I don’t think we’re seeing his best anymore – he’s more dependable in the races but has had some really weird mistakes. Even then Giovinazzi is STILL unable to beat him consistently, better in qualifying but doesn’t turn up in the races. Can’t help but think the Alfa Sauber is a better car than what the drivers are currently getting from it.

    All change would be dramatic but there’s a lot of drivers that are good and potentially available. If I were to pick I’d like to see Hulkenberg & Albon as I think both really deserve a decent second shot, but I expect Bottas & Ilott. Keeping Raikkonen wouldn’t be a bad bet but they’re crazy if they keep Giovinazzi who’s been consistently unimpressive and is clearly not on Ferrari’s radar.

    1. @rocketpanda I think it’s hard to make a case for keeping Kimi instead of Gio if they do decide to keep one driver… Kimi will be on much higher wages and has been completely demolished in qualifying. Either Giovinazzi has suddenly got much quicker or Kimi is declining rapidly – I suspect the latter.

      1. @tflb

        Kimi brings in a lot more in merchandising and attention, though.

  9. I’d calculate all those measures: number of points finishes, total points scored, quali and race average position, quali results and race finishes ahead and laps led for the Alfa Romeos drivers as I’ll do for every lineup with an interesting case but for this one the outcome is rather obvious despite neither Raikkonen nor Giovinazzi being standouts this season and both being pretty matched but still among the most underperforming drivers of the current field. It’s because their pattern has been too predictable lately: Gio heavily outperforms Rai in the qualifying, only to Rai pass him and others in the race starts and maybe lose it by an unexpected silly mistake but usually coming home ahead of his teammate, who sometimes have some misfortune during the race as well. They both have subpar race pace, so it can’t be argue that, only because of bad luck the Italian driver has been left behind by the Ice Man. Not enough, the latter is in fact still superior during the race. Not a sizeable difference of performance between them in the big picture at all, but it must be acknowledged that Raikkonen is ahead in the WDC on merit, even though it doesn’t mean very much as they’re arguably the weakest lineup of the entire grid.

    1. True, what you described is the most frequent scenario we see in race weekends!

  10. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
    13th August 2021, 17:30

    I almost feel like doing one of my write ups like I did in 2019 when comparing Grosjean and Magnussen and saying Grosjean was getting unfairly rated.

    I personally see Kimi as ready to retire. He’s making a lot of mistakes, his qualifying pace is very poor. He sometimes has good starts, but Giovinazzi’s bad luck has been been making them look closer than they are. i also think Giovinazzi has improved somewhat this year. I would also say he is among the most unlucky driver this year.

    In terms of performance, I would say Giovinazzi has thoroughly beaten Kimi this year. Even in one or two races where Kimi deserved to finish ahead, despite Giovinazzi’s mistakes, I think his pace has pretty much always looks better.

    Palmer mentioned in one of his videos that Giovinazzi has been doing some very skilful overtaking this year, one of which was in Monaco. Unlike some others, I think his race pace is certainly good now (more often than not anyway).

    1. In terms of performance, I would say Giovinazzi has thoroughly beaten Kimi this year. Even in one or two races where Kimi deserved to finish ahead, despite Giovinazzi’s mistakes, I think his pace has pretty much always looks better.

      Kimi would have performed better if not for two costly mistakes in Austria II and British races. He had been better than Giovinazzi in races and Gio had been way better than Raikkonen in qualifying. Overall the Italian driver has been slightly better than the Ice Man for this reason, he has been more reliable.

      In terms of performance, I would say Giovinazzi has thoroughly beaten Kimi this year. Even in one or two races where Kimi deserved to finish ahead, despite Giovinazzi’s mistakes, I think his pace has pretty much always looks better.

      How is Giovinazzi’s race pace better than Raikkonen’s? Where is the foundation for this argument? I don’t see reasons to affirm that neither of those two drivers had made the most of race pace: Giovinazzi has been a good qualifier, Raikkonen has been not; Raikkonen has been an excellent starter, Raikkonen has been not. For the rest they both had been mediocre at best and I’d be surprised if you could prove otherwise. Giovinazzi had poor luck and Raikkonen made more big mistakes, that’s the reason why maybe it’s reasonable to rank the former ahead for the time being. But the case of the current Alfa Romeo lineup being a solid one currently is hard to take.

      Palmer mentioned in one of his videos that Giovinazzi has been doing some very skilful overtaking this year, one of which was in Monaco. Unlike some others, I think his race pace is certainly good now (more often than not anyway).

      How many overtakes did he make the entire season? Many or a few? It takes more than one specific nice pass to make a good overtaker and more than one race to build a consistently strong pace.

      1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
        14th August 2021, 11:46

        @rodewulf

        It’s lucky that I compared so many of their races in the team mate wars section on another forum (where you vote for the driver in each team that outperformed the other), so I already have a lot of what you are questioning backed up.

        Overall, it is very clear that in most of the races, Giovinazzi has had the better pace / performance if you watched the race carefully (or re watched it). I have all the races recorded myself and have looked back at them all.

        If you don’t believe this short version, I will also comment with my view from most of the races where I thought too many voted in favour of Kimi. Many who voted actually changed their votes because of what I said. I think Giovinazzi has overall been far better in both race pace and fewer costly errors. I wouldn’t say the team has a strong line up, but I would say Giovinazzi is a reasonably solid driver now.

        Bahrian – Giovinazzi – bad luck, slightly better performance and race pace.

        Imola – Giovinazzi – Very even race pace, but Kimi later made a mistake, then Giovinazzi had awful luck.

        Portugal – Giovinazzi – Easy to say he did the better job here – Kimi crashed into the back of his team mate.

        Spain – Giovinazzi – His team mate had a good start, but Giovinazzi had far better pace and was with in DRS range a great deal of the time. Then the same bad luck hit him again. It is highly likely he will have beaten Kimi due to his better pace again – his team reckon he would have got a points finish.

        Monaco – Giovinazzi – Did what he needed to in qualifying and he had the better race. Pace wise it was hard to judge as Giovinazzi was stuck in a train.

        Baku – Giovinazzi – Would say Kimi had better pace in the later stint, but Giovinazzi has a bizarre strategy which almost certainly cost him the better position. Overall, I would say Giovinazzi had the better race, and his early start and pace advantage will have been enough to allow him to finish ahead

        France – Giovinazzi – Little to compare here. Giovinazzi was slightly quicker, but started ahead and stayed ahead.

        Styria – Giovinazzi – Despite being spun on the first lap, his pace advantage got him ahead of Kimi and he held him behind for ages being on older, slower tyres. It is no wonder Giovinazzi lost out in the end.

        Austria – Giovinazzi – Despite me thinking he did the better job, his race was very poor this time. Kimi had much better pace. Giovinazzi made mistakes at the start, but nothing like as bad as what kimi did on Vettel on the last lap. This race however is one of the only races where it was clear that kimi had better pace.

        Britain – Kimi – He did better here, but this was due to his start, which also are often good from him. His pace looked about the same as Giovinazzi overall, but he will have finished ahead if not for Perez’s silly move.

        Hungary – Kimi – He did the better job, but it was likely his team mates mistake and early gamble that made him come out. Giovinazzi’s pace was a fair bit quicker – and he was in dirty air towards the end of the race, on older tyres than Kimi but was still faster.

        1. @thegianthogweed, Nice write up Ben!

          Agree with you about Giovinazzi but do you see him improving even more than what we’re seeing now or do you think he’s plateaued?
          Kimi has sadly lost performance as you mentioned above and retiring might be a really good option for him, it looks to be that time as I don’t see him getting better next year.
          Giovinazzi is the tough one to decide on whether to keep him or replace, would you think it’s better to keep him for another season as opposed to replacing him with a rookie like Callum Ilott or Schumacher matched up with the likes of Bottas or another seasoned driver? The new F2 drivers have lately been showing as excellent drivers with massive potential in F1 compared to drivers who came before F2 like Giovinazzi?

          1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
            14th August 2021, 14:58

            I think Giovinazzi is a bit like Ericsson. Is actually decent now (a bit like Ericsson was in 2018) But it took him a long time to get to being decent. If money is behind him, then I think he’s certainly good enough to stay (Ericsson didn’t quite get this good IMO), if not, then it probably is worth getting better drivers in that are more likely to develop.

          2. @redpill I’ve seen some commentators saying that Giovinazzi has indeed better pace than Raikkonen until the former start to run out of rubber i.e. Raikkonen is better in keeping tyres alive despite being initially slower. We’d need to confirm that in the race charts, it’s verifiable. The gaps to the race leader rarely show a big difference between them, that’s why I find the case for Antonio having a race pace that better overall than Kimi really hard to grasp, especially given that he’s not well known for good tyre management as far as I’m aware of (even if he’s not so bad on that measure), something that always had been one of the traits for the Ice Man.

        2. @thegianthogweed Nice for the detailed commenting on each race. You had done more than most of commentators trying to prove their points only with empty words. But let’s take Bahrain race, for instance. Looking to race charts, it’s not clear at all Giovinazzi had better race pace. In the first stint he couldn’t pull away from Rai, and the Ice Man made a longer stint that put him ahead (Gio had a bad pit stop that dropped him considerably behind, 8 secs.). Then of course the gap between them could gradually become smaller along the race, but it doesn’t mean better race pace for the driver behind unless it’s a huge difference. Actually the gap between them ended up in more than 12 seconds and was still around 8s when probably Gio was lapped (there’s a significant lump in his line at the charts indicating a big time lost in just one lap, what usually is due on becoming traffic). So at least in this case the evidence of Antonio’s better pace seem anecdotal when compared to Kimi. To avoid such observational dilemmas, we need to resort to race charts and other types of data that are more reliable than any “overall impressions” coming from anyone about drivers and cars’ levels of performance, even if detailed by race like you did.

          1. Ben Rowe (@thegianthogweed)
            14th August 2021, 23:22

            @rodewulf

            Well, here is what I wrote in the forum about Bahrain as an example:

            “Giovinazzi and Raikkonen is the one that i feel may get the most unfair votes. Raikkonen didn’t have he best of starts by binning it in practice. Then Giovinazzi missed out on Q3 by under a tenth of a second. While Kimi was only 2 positions behind him, he was over half a second down! This was a very solid qualifying performance by Giovinazzi.

            In the race, they were only separated by one position in the first stage, but Giovinazzi had a slow pit stop where he lost 7 seconds as well as a position to his team mate, Tsunoda and Ocon. After both kimi and him had had their 2nd stops, Giovinazzi was slowly closing the gap that he lost both due to traffic and the bad stop to the point where he will have been ahead if he hadn’t lost that time. He was still around 7 seconds off kimi 5 laps from the of the race end, but he understandably gave up when he had to back off for hamilton and Verstappen to come through. He then dropped the gap to 14 seconds behind kimi by the end, but I think he did this as he had nothing to gain or lose. Unlike Bottas, I think that bad stop actually cost him a position though. Pretty easy vote for Giovinazzi, but i feel that many will go for kimi if giovinazzi’s situation wasn’t looked at closely.”

            It may not be by much, but to my eyes, it still looked like Giovinazzi had the better pace this race. And pretty much every race where they looked close, or were hard for many to judge, i did a long write up like this.

          2. @thegianthogweed On a subjective level it might be true, but notice that one could make the same case about Raikkonen being better. Then, restricting it to solid evidence, they had nearly the same pace in this and most of the races along the entire season so far. And probably, if their pace were really strong, they would’ve finished at least one position above than they did in average. Raikkonen had been going longer stints in many races and he could’ve gained more positions if his race pace was actually good, despite almost always starting from lowly grid positions. As for Giovinazzi it’s very likely that he lacks that fine balance of going fast and conserving tyres as well, something that drivers like Alonso and Hamilton to a lesser extent are very keen to do, extracting nearly maximum pace from their machinery and still have some life left on their tyres in the end of the stints (despite Hamilton’s complaints he usually know how to do it). Whenever Antonio seems fast, that usually fades quickly, and notwithstanding Kimi often reaching as far as 6th or 7th before pitting as the last or nearly last to do it, no one should have a big amount of reasons to bet on him for points finishes in almost any given race. Alfa Romeo is not much better than a rather crappy car which only scrapes through lowly midfield positions more often than not, but I seriously doubt either Giovinazzi or Raikkonen are extracting the most of performance from it. Maybe actually it’s still not even close in any measure except quali results for Gio and starts from Rai, despite improvements on pace and consistency from the former and the strategy efforts from the latter.

          3. @thegianthogweed, Thanks guys for the in-depth comments.

  11. Very disappointing by Gio. Very, very disappointing. He should have sent Kimi into retirement two years ago. But yet Kimi still strives. Hmm. Get rid of both of them please Fred.

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