[raceweekendpromotion]The stewards decided not to investigate an incident between Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton on lap 48 of the Sao Paulo Grand Prix. Should they have taken a look at it, and did the Red Bull driver deserve a penalty?
Incident
Verstappen took the lead of the Sao Paulo Grand Prix having passed Valtteri Bottas on the opening lap. Starting from tenth position, Hamilton made his way up to fourth place, before team mate Bottas allowed him through into third.A Safety Car for debris on the circuit allowed Hamilton to close the gap to the Red Bulls ahead and later passed Sergio Perez to move into second after the restart.
After the pair had both made their second pit stops – Verstappen at the end of lap 40, Hamilton on the end of lap 43 – Hamilton began to close the gap to the race leader, reaching within DRS range of Verstappen at the end of lap 47.
As the pair exited the Curva do Sol, Hamilton used the DRS zone in the first sector to slipstream alongside Verstappen to the outside on the approach to Descida do Lago. As they went approached the left-hander Hamilton moved ahead, but when they turned into the corner both Verstappen and Hamilton ran wide and onto the asphalt run-off, before rejoining the circuit with Verstappen still in the lead.
How it happened – original footage
How it happened – Verstappen’s view
What they said
In the cars
Verstappen and Hamilton were both relatively quiet over team radio after the incident. Verstappen did not acknowledge the near-miss, simply asking engineer Gianpiero Lambiase to keep him informed about the gap to Hamilton.
Hamilton said nothing following the incident. When informed by race engineer Peter Bonnington “that incident is under investigation”, Hamilton responded “yeah, it was crazy.”
Red Bull sporting director Jonathan Wheatley argued to race director Michael Masi that there was no need to investigate the incident.
“Michael, that is all about ‘let them race,'” Wheatley told Masi. “Yep, no problems, that’s fine,” Masi replied. “We’re just having a look at it, Jonathan. There is nothing further in that. Thank you for your input.”
When the stewards confirmed that there would be no investigation into the incident, Mercedes sporting director Ron Meadows disagreed.
“So, crowding off track and gaining an unfair advantage and no investigation necessary?” he questioned Masi.
“Ron, having looked at it all completely,” Masi responded, “it was one of those – and obviously we’ve had a good look at it, that’s why we’ve gone with no investigation.”
Hamilton was informed by Bonnington that Verstappen would not be investigated. “So, Lewis, apparently no investigation necessary for running you off track” Bonnington said. “Of course, man, of course” replied Hamilton, sounding unimpressed.
After the incident
Lewis Hamilton said that he was not surprised to learn during the race that the incident would not be investigated.
“When they said they were going to investigate, I just knew that that’s the decision they would come to – whether it was right or wrong,” said Hamilton.
“I need to go and look back at it. But I mean, it’s a racing incident in the end and it probably doesn’t really matter.”
Max Verstappen said he believed the fact that neither he nor Hamilton stayed on circuit was a natural consequence of the hard racing between the pair.
“We both of course, tried to be ahead into the corner, and so I braked a bit later to try and keep the position and the tyres were already a bit worn,” Verstappen said.
“So, I was really on the edge of grip, so that’s why I think I was already not fully on the apex. And it’s a safer way, of just running a bit wide there.”
The official verdict
The stewards noted the incident, but determined that no investigation into a possible penalty was necessary.
Your verdict
Should Verstappen have been penalised for the incident? Cast your vote below and have your say in the comments.
Do you agree the stewards were right not to penalise Verstappen for the incident with Hamilton?
- No opinion (1%)
- Strongly disagree (57%)
- Slightly disagree (11%)
- Neither agree nor disagree (5%)
- Slightly agree (7%)
- Strongly agree (21%)
Total Voters: 292
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This article will be updated.
Debates and polls
- Should the F1 world championship be decided by a 19-lap sprint race?
- Who should Red Bull run in their second F1 team in 2024?
- Should Formula 1 have fewer night races?
- Should F1 switch to a single practice session for all grand prix weekends?
- Which team will break Red Bull’s record win streak?
nickthegreek (@nickthegreek)
14th November 2021, 19:06
yes
hyoko
14th November 2021, 19:52
Of course. Would have been an unremarkable incident. Max is ahead and on the racing line, the other car runs out of space and goes off. Usual stuff.
What was a little different is that Max had braked too late to stay in track and went off, but he was already well ahead, so no lasting advantage gained.
Compare to the Silvertone incident were Max was punted and his RBR binned, and the hitman got a ridiculously ineffective penalty, just to encourage it t-boning the competition.
Lee1
14th November 2021, 20:37
I would go to the opticians if you think max was ahead going in to the corner…
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2021, 22:09
Verstappen was behind and certainly not on the racing line (which is to the far RHS of the track before the turn).
JackL
15th November 2021, 1:44
Do you know anything about F1?
The racing line into turn 4 is to the left. Lewis was on it. Max was defending the inside line.
Lewis was just ahead as they went into the corner so Max was obliged to leave a car’s width. He didnt.
He increased his lead on that lap, so clearly a lasting advantage was gained. Plus not losing a position is an advantage, as Martin Brundle says.
To me, the only thing that matters is Max’s steering input. If he understeered wide, racing incident. No issue. If he opened up the steering and ran Lewis out of road, thats a penalty. The stewards had that data and deemed it a racing incident.
Its clear you’re a verstappen fan, but at least be objective.
GongTong (@gongtong)
15th November 2021, 7:26
I don’t think hyoko is necessarily biased from his opinion there.
He just doesn’t understand what constitutes being legitimately in front of another car. Which is crucial to understanding this incident.
Chris Sharman
15th November 2021, 15:07
I obviously dont agree, Hamilton was ahead even though Verstappen had the inside line.
Verstapen deliberatly broke so late that he would miss the corner and be forced to go straight, either forcing Hamilton to go straight and regain the lead (something that he had momenterily lost) or crash into Hamilton taking out both cars. Something which I believe was Verstapens intention as he would of maintained his actual points lead, It was obvious to him that Hamiton was faster and if he did nothing then Hamilton would win and the points gap reduced. It was preferential to Verstapan to go long and crash to maintain his points lead. But Hamilton did an excelent job of avoiding the crash even though it can be seen that Verstappen turned away from the apex and into Hamilton. He was there for able to overtake later with a much cleaner move and avoiding giving Verstappen the same possibility to invoke contact.
Ajaxn
14th November 2021, 20:36
So i guess this presedence means it’ll be ok for all the other drivers to do that same move.
over taking? No way son, i’ll just break late enough to take us both off the racing line.
They’ll call it hard racing until someone comes out of it a vegetable.
Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
14th November 2021, 22:03
@nickthegreek I don’t get the results from the poll. It is that simple, both drivers missed t4, there is nothing to look at.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2021, 22:10
Specsavers called to offer you an appointment.
GongTong (@gongtong)
15th November 2021, 7:29
@peartree I know you love your controversial hot takes in comment threads here. But this one is silly.
One driver failed to make the corner through carrying excess speed. The other was alongside him and had no choice but to go wide to avoid the crash.
I don’t mind that Max is fighting tooth and nail in the championship, that’s great. But sometimes that goes wrong and you get penalised. This was clearly one of those moments.
nickthegreek (@nickthegreek)
15th November 2021, 11:03
I don’t agree with the poll results, but I kind of get it. i’m a Hamilton fan myself. in this case, i feel like Hamilton was over reaching, he was wise to back out of it and try again later
Jazz
14th November 2021, 19:09
For me, the “Say hi” comment was utterly stupid. I know stewards shouldn’t have bias, but why upset the equilibrium? I’d say Nax has painted a target on his back now for future decisions to not go in his favour until he maybe starts showing a bit more respect.
Manto
14th November 2021, 19:13
Well, they fined him for a thing vettel did at least four times before it’s normal to be salty
What I found stupid was wolf finger after the overtake, always talking about fairness and sportsmanship and then behaving like a child
Jazz
14th November 2021, 19:17
@manto how is that related to my comment?
Manto
14th November 2021, 19:34
In short
“the say hi was stupid, why he did it?”
“Maybe he was salty for the fine”
Sikhumbuzo Khumalo
14th November 2021, 19:40
It’s not related at all. He just wants to defend his man.
Oletros
14th November 2021, 19:27
When did Vettel the same thing than Verstappen?
Manto
14th November 2021, 19:33
Check some inspector seb videos, he pushes cars with the foot, he touches a mercedes front wing with the foot, he touches a red bull and a mercedes on the side
Noah Taubman
14th November 2021, 19:36
You realize this post is regarding a separate incident?
Edvaldo
14th November 2021, 20:08
vettel touched the tyres with is feet. very big difference there.
luigismen (@luigismen)
14th November 2021, 20:26
Vettel has done that (touching other cars) usually after a race. Not after Qualy when the cars go to parc ferme
Manto
14th November 2021, 21:46
44) POST RACE PARC FERME
44.1 Only those officials charged with supervision may enter the post race parc fermé. No intervention of any kind is allowed there unless authorised by such officials.
44.2 When the parc fermé is in use, parc fermé regulations will apply in the area between the Line and the parc fermé entrance.
44.3 The parc fermé shall be secured such that no unauthorised persons can gain access to it.
bosyber (@bosyber)
14th November 2021, 19:19
It clearly shows (as did his/Horner’s I/you did all you could tone) he knew he got away with a foul w/o real penalty. I am not quite sure it needed a penalty (maybe the slighlty sarcastic ‘give him a black-and-white flag’ I saw on twitter – though then they probably wouldn’t have given him the also deserved one for weaving, as they’d have to think about a penalty!), but I sure am glad that Hamilton just passed him and made it moot, as far as race result goes.
I hope the drivers tackle this stuff in their drivers briefing next time. It is also puzzling after earlier crowding of track penalties this year that it apparently didn’t even need an investigation.
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2021, 19:19
Max will get a natural DNF or for continued attitude towards drivers/stewards, a good DSQ before the season end, and it will get his attention. Doubt he learns anything, as his word states, he doesnt need to learn anything from anyone…
rodewulf (@rodewulf)
14th November 2021, 19:40
@mysticus
Aren’t you getting the wrong driver to talk about those things? Lewis pushed his team into a wrong strategy in Turkey and never apologised for it. He thinks he doesn’t need to learn from anyone when they lose, he’s only that sympathetic when they win. As for his incidents with Max, as Wolff said, it always takes two to tango, doesn’t it?
mystic one (@mysticus)
16th November 2021, 18:39
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXxTz3mX1lA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6oRuIGZyNE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exdQEwj5h-8
i dont remember he is swearing (if you consider the “s” word) at his team or at others during and after the race? did you hear one and care to share? was he angry? absolutely gutted! i think you are getting the wrong driver we are talking about, his name is max, and absolute disrespectful, coward, finger pointer in the entire field after horner who is his teacher
Sikhumbuzo Khumalo
14th November 2021, 19:44
I have over the years developed a strong distaste for Christian and Helmut leadership styles. I find them borderline ethically – even on how they treat their own drivers apart from Max of course.
I think they have both contributed immensely into developing this monster child Max who can never do no wrong.
For the FIA and stewards to turn a blind to Max today; they keep egging him on and one day they might find themselves with a bigger problem.
Grant
14th November 2021, 19:23
They changed the 2021 Rules to Stop Lewis
Punished him for a Broken Wing tempered with by Max
They allow Mad Crashtapen to Drive with Impunity on the race track
But “STILL WE RISE”
Ronald (@)
14th November 2021, 20:21
What a fool believes..
Sazzler
14th November 2021, 20:36
I agree. Max is not a sportsman he is a bully. Everyone gets out of his way because they know he will crash them. He deliberately tried to crash Hamilton today. The FIA need talking about. Max well deserved a penalty
bogolo moremong (@bogolo)
15th November 2021, 9:09
I doubt it would make any difference.
Remember the “that’s what you get when you dont leave room” comment?
David BR (@david-br)
14th November 2021, 19:10
Clear penalty. I mean, insanely clear. Still, despite running him off track and weaving like a dodgy-wheeled supermarket trolley, Verstappen was totally outclassed by Hamilton – as a driver and a competitor worthy of a championship.
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2021, 19:27
they didnt penalize him for the sake of silverstone, if he crashed ham out, he would sure get a slap on the wrist… it was a disgusting decision by the stewards, as they said before, not the severity of the result but the actions are punished. Yet they didnt even investigate it. Utter rubbish.
The Dolphins
15th November 2021, 5:33
Just goes to show that Lewis’ driving is that of a multiple champion: it doesn’t matter if you lose the corner, it’s the points at the end of the race that matter. Max may well still win this championship but if he had given Lewis more space in Silverstone then Max would have an even greater drivers’ championship points lead and Red Bull would be tied or leading the constructors’ championship.
rodewulf (@rodewulf)
14th November 2021, 19:44
@david-br
Last weekend Max just had the fastest car to outrace Lewis by quite a margin, today the excuse doesn’t work with roles reversed, isn’t that too convenient? Interesting, your logic is as broken as Mercedes’ rear wing mysteriously was during quali.
hyoko
14th November 2021, 19:55
I’d say the RBR car was totally outclassed by the Merc rocketship. But the defense was spirited while the overtake was the highway-DRS garden variety, no merit whatsoever in that
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
15th November 2021, 2:56
Baloney! Red Bulls overtook Mercs 3 times on track – Mercs overtook twice.
Ajaxn
14th November 2021, 20:03
Any other driver would have conceeded the corner. Not Max. He would sooner drive the other driver and himself off the track.
Once again Max and redbull have done the maths going into that situation, they will take the gamble and risk both cars DNF’ing. Think about it, if they both go off, the championship points advantage is still with Verstappen. In other words, If Max can crash into Lewis for the remanding races then he has the championship.
Verstappen has to be the most arrognt, the most entitled driver on the grid. If he ever became champion it would endorce his kind of driving, forcing others to adopt the same single minded attitude to the sport.
patrick Lee
14th November 2021, 21:37
WELL PUT. As long as he/Max keeps doing this (running Lewis off track), he will keep doing it.
jimjim150
16th November 2021, 15:48
Yes. When compared with other racers on track Max’s decision making and reluctance to concede is reckless. F1 are setting a dangerous precedent by allowing/ endorsing/ encouraging it, especially where he is the current poster boy and role model for so many aspiring kids.
Look where he ended up in Monza, thank goodness for the halo or this year would have been very different for F1.
Ivan Vinitskyy (@ivan-vinitskyy)
14th November 2021, 19:11
This one feels black and white to me. So much so that I’m questioning the motives of stewards.
Sonny Crockett (@sonnycrockett)
14th November 2021, 20:14
It’ll be interesting to see if they review their decision once they get access to Max’s onboard.
Watching live and in subsequent replays, every bone in my body says that Max intentionally ran Lewis wide. Very little attempt to turn into the corner and he even looked like he tried to keep Lewis wide once they were off track.
I’m not a conspiracy theorist but when the owners of F1 sink low enough to keep pushing Sprint Qualifying, or whatever they’re calling it, in a desperate bid to increase viewing figures, it’s difficult not to suspect that they’ll do anything they can to keep this season neck-and-neck until the final round.
petebaldwin (@)
14th November 2021, 19:11
I’ll vote once we’ve heard some explanations. With no data, no onboard showing Max’s steering input and no explanation from Masi, it’s hard to tell. It certainly looked like Max was lucky to get away with it when you compare it to the penalties given in Austria.
Ivan Vinitskyy (@ivan-vinitskyy)
14th November 2021, 19:16
This “steering input” everyone keeps mentioning is a stupid metric because it’s irrelevant. So what if he did indeed full lock? He still run wide because he braked too late on the inside of the corner. He did that only once to keep his competitior behind. What other data is needed?
David BR (@david-br)
14th November 2021, 19:27
@ivan-vinitskyy +1
Verstappen managed to drive around the circuit without going off track at corner 4 on every other lap. But somehow he lost it just as Hamilton was trying to pass… No ‘data’ beyond what we could all see is necessary. It was clearly deliberate and clearly against the racing regulations. The only explanation I can think of is that the stewards wanted the race lead (and championship points) to be decided on track. Which is how it worked out. Great. But it was the wrong decision technically.
Lee1
14th November 2021, 19:38
Not only that but Hamilton was clearly going to make the corner fine until he was pushed off…
I can’t understand how if the inside driver leaves the track that he has not been punished. Remember Hamilton was judged to be most at fault at Silverstone as he was never going to make the apex (so the stewards said) max didn’t even attempt to make the apex on this occasion and appears to not try very hard to turn into the corner at all. I find it slightly suspicious that there is no camera footage showing verstappens steering…
petebaldwin (@)
14th November 2021, 20:31
Don’t get me wrong – from what I’ve seen, I don’t really understand how it wasn’t a penalty. The fact that it looked so clear but the stewards quickly decided “no penalty” is what is making me question it…
RedEaredRabbit
14th November 2021, 19:17
+1 looked dodgy but better to judge after seeing Max’s onboard
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2021, 19:30
I hope merc find a few videos to prove max’s driving intention to crowd ham off, and it gets investigated and penalized… i still remember the times redbul burned midnight oil to find every fan video to get ham investigated and penalized next day. hope this comes out too.
Sviat
14th November 2021, 19:12
No. There’s nothing to discuss: Hamilton was fully in front of Verstappen, and Verstappen wasn’t able to stay on the track when defending his position. That’s worth a penalty.
When the FIA president says “We need to stop Mercedes”, that’s disgusting. And we saw a confirmation of that today: the FIA not caring about racing but caring about not letting Mercedes win.
PS: What’s even worse is that how much Verstappen doesn’t care about his infringements (the way he dismissed the black and white flag for weaving on the straight proves it). He isn’t worth becoming a WDC.
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2021, 19:24
@Sviat nature has a way to balance things… Max’s one will come when it is the right time in the right place…
anyone remember this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G27y4jX5i1c
when it is not over the line yet, it is not finished yet :)
AMG44 (@amg44)
14th November 2021, 19:12
Why are they still not showing Max onboard? That will help us judge this mad move by the Mad Max.
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
14th November 2021, 19:24
@amg44 Because they won’t have access to it yet.
Due to bandwidth limitations they can’t pull live footage from every camera on every car. At the time the only camera that was live on Max’s car was the rear facing one (As that was the relevant angle with Lewis behind him). To get access to the forward facing camera on Max’s car they will need to download the footage (Since 2016 they have been able to record footage from every camera on a car to internal storage) which they can only do once they get access to the car when it’s in the Red Bull garage after going through post race scrutineering.
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
14th November 2021, 19:28
Also remember that it’s a tough back to back with everything needing to be packed up quickly to be sent out to Qatar next weekend which may mean they don’t have time to edit the footage today or have it sent back to Biggin Hill for it to be done there.
Once it’s downloaded it will likely pop up on social media or the weekly F1TV review show with it also been made available to broadcasters.
AMG44 (@amg44)
14th November 2021, 20:06
Thanks for the info. Didn’t know about that.
JC
14th November 2021, 19:58
now this is some quality information I did not know. thank you sir, makes a change from all the tribalism that is generally in F1 comment sections these days.
x303 (@x303)
14th November 2021, 20:36
Thanks for the insight @gt-racer.
BasCB (@bascb)
14th November 2021, 19:13
After what we saw in recent races – Kimi being ok not giving back a spot to Alonso since Alonso pushed him wide and the drivers actually being warned against “crowding a car off track in the corners” in Mexico I must say I cannot see this other than another inexplainable show of how horribly inconsistent and not transparant at all the stewarding of F1 is.
I really liked the battle, and am quite unsure I would have liked to see the momentum stopped by having Verstappen penalised (and maybe even see Bottas actually “pass” him because of that). But to not even investigate it seems wholly against the trend we have been seeing recently.
Can we just get the FIA and the drivers together to agree on something that one can actually understand and steward in a somewhat transparent and consistent way please? Now it just means another endless debate over whether it was allowed or not. And whether the FIA should or should not police this. And about tracks with tarmac runoffs etc. Sigh.
bosyber (@bosyber)
14th November 2021, 19:20
Indeed @bascb
MichaelN
14th November 2021, 19:33
Absolutely, it’s a mess – and the FIA likes it because it gives them the option to change the penalty race by race. It has become commonplace in F1 to run others off the road, both Hamilton and Verstappen have done so many times, and it’s unfortunate that the (supposedly independent) stewards aren’t willing to stand up to the race director and F1 crowd (Masi, Horner, Wolff included) and tell them that racing isn’t supposed to work like this. Indeed it doesn’t in most other premier categories.
NewVerstappenFan (@jureo)
14th November 2021, 19:14
I am happy for once, despite Max doing a fair bit to encourage it, they did not crash.
And also for FIA stewards not to ruin a perfectly good fight.
NewVerstappenFan (@jureo)
14th November 2021, 19:16
If there would be a crash blame would not be hard to determine.
David BR (@david-br)
14th November 2021, 19:28
@jureo Max ruined a perfectly good fight with his driving. More than once.
NewVerstappenFan (@jureo)
14th November 2021, 19:52
Many times, this is why I hate that.
Let them race, but please do not crash.
Now a crash here would ruin the fight for win and perhaps title.
David BR (@david-br)
14th November 2021, 20:58
@jureo But once again there wasn’t a crash only because Hamilton took evasive action, despite being ahead, and that cost him the position. There is simply no justification for allowing Verstappen to drive that way.
Jay
14th November 2021, 23:01
The fact your saying what your saying, makes me believe you are either very new of F1 or don’t know anything the same as 90% of the posts and comments, I’m a fan of Verstappen, but what he did was ridiculous, dangerous and was very unsportsmanship like conduct, Ive been an F1 fan for years and been all over the world watching, before all the fake F1 come plodding along with there comments, but what he did ruins the race, it’s not about “oh they didn’t crash so it’s ok” that’s utter bull crap, the FIA should of issued a penalty to make sure drivers don’t continue to do this, it was a great fight until idiots get scared there going to loose so they try and push someone out, again as a fan of verstappen and I quite like Hamilton also they are both aggressive drivers, but that was just reckless, will be good to see verstappen camera angle once released.
NewVerstappenFan (@jureo)
18th November 2021, 14:10
No, it was not reckless, it was controlled and deliberate.
Was there not a rule about letting room on the outside?
AJ (@asleepatthewheel)
14th November 2021, 19:14
Imo he was looking for contact there so that he could have walked out with a 21 point lead and not need any more victories this season. Lewis didn’t give Max what he wanted. Still waiting for the onboard to be released though.
Sumedh
14th November 2021, 19:21
May be you are right. He risked a crash, knowing the worst case scenario is a penalty which would make him finish 2nd (which he most likely would given the massive speed differential between red bull and Mercedes)
Roth Man (@rdotquestionmark)
14th November 2021, 19:18
This was another ‘tactical foul’ from Max. Lewis had the corner so Max lunged in there with nothing to lose, never looked like making the corner and pushed Lewis off for good measure. I don’t like this racing.
RandomMallard (@)
14th November 2021, 19:20
Based on the information we’ve got so far, stonewall penalty. While it was nice to see the race decided on track instead of Lewis just sat behind the RB for 20 laps knowing he’ll inherit the win (Canada 2019 anyone?), they have to stop people pulling this off again. They especially need to clear up their consistency on these moves as well. Compare this to Austria, Monza (Ocon and Vettel I think?), Monza 2019, Austin (Alonso/Raikkonen) and you get wildly different results, generally dependent on what kind of runoff is in place.
I wouldn’t even be mad if Merc try and appeal the no penalty ruling. I have no idea if they can or not, but I wouldn’t mind if they did.
bosyber (@bosyber)
14th November 2021, 19:22
Yep @randommallard; I certainly hope (and expect) this to feature in next race’s drivers briefing, and hope those that got penalised in those incidents speak up loudly. It has all the hallmarks of Vertappen and Red Bull clearly knowing, showing they know, they got away with a tactical foul.
BasCB (@bascb)
14th November 2021, 20:24
Agree with that @randommallard. It is really rediculous how inconsistent they are with rulings. Either you want to let them race in most circumstances or you police track limits to the milimeter, but please keep it more or less the SAME everywhere.
I don’t think Stewards’ penalties can be appealed, but with Masi not even referring this to the stewards for review / investigation AND the footage from Max’ onboars potentially giving us “new information” we might see Mercedes being able to.
Regardless we badly need the FIA, regular stewards and the drivers to get together and agree where to put the limit and how/what to consistently police and penalize to make sure it is clear and transparent what is ok and what is not.
72defender (@72defender)
14th November 2021, 19:20
Max ran Lewis off the track…period!
Just look at all his preceding laps, he never ran that wide entering that corner. That punk only did so once he knew Lewis was going to overtake him.
StuBen (@stuben)
14th November 2021, 22:45
@72defender He did go all 4 wheels of at turn 4 a few laps before, clearly seen from Hams onboard but no warning for it. Even though stewards let it go still no warning on the 2nd much wider excursion, just for weaving. FIA should have stamped it out when funnily enough Max started the trend on Charles in Austria.
Moshambles (@moshambles)
14th November 2021, 19:20
I think the FIA were scared to effectively, make a call on who wins the race. They feared a similar backlash to Vettel/Hamilton in Canada. It sets a bad precedent for future situations now. Messy
Sikhumbuzo Khumalo
14th November 2021, 19:50
Since when can an organisation like the FIA be afraid to make a decision. Isn’t this a case of what’s wrong vs what’s right. F1 is a dangerous sport – lives can be lost and have been lost in the past. So fear as an excuse cannot cut it.
Broke1984 (@broke1984)
14th November 2021, 19:20
No opinion for me. It looked bad and in my opinion it looked like a penalty. However I have no access to telemetry nor have I seen footage his steering input
fab
14th November 2021, 19:51
Lewis did that on Austin 2015 on Rosberg.
And several times since, at least in Monza, Turkey …. .
Sometimes it’s ok, and sometime it’s not, depending of the driver ? :)
Whatever if you are just in front or slightly not, the other driver ends off tracks.
Ok if rule is not to push driver off track and not open line …
But then, Max, as Lewis, as Nando, as Lando, as Charles, as any other drivers don’t
Not just Max
LB (@burden93)
14th November 2021, 20:03
The difference here is that Verstappen didn’t make the corner. In all of the ones above, the defender stays in the track limits
Edvaldo
15th November 2021, 0:37
exactly. And in Silverstone 2016 Vettel got a penalty for pushing Massa off track the same way.
You can run the opponent off space, but you cant force them out.
Mark (@blueruck)
14th November 2021, 21:31
+1
Brownerboy (@brownerboy)
14th November 2021, 19:21
It doesn’t take an idiot to see Max was never in a million years going to make the corner. The position was already lost and it was a desperate dive bomb. Moto GP riders are obliged to give up the place if you go off track and keep it.
I also find it suspicious how there’s no onboard footage if Max’s steering angle. What’s there to hide?
Blakk
14th November 2021, 19:22
So if you look into the perspective of latest developments…
FIA allowing RB to change their wings 3 times in Parc Fermee, but Mercedes got DQ from qualification.
Max gets away pushing Lewis off track, got just BW flag for his crazy weaving on track…
come on, this is a shady game for FIA
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2021, 19:42
@Blakk
absolutely disgusting stewarding… nothing else explains “no investigation necessary” decision. it was clear what the intention was, and max does it all the time, it was a clear 5 sec penaly first time around, next one was even worse…
redbul allowed to change an entire rear wing, merc was clearly designed to break? makes total nonsense!
what is absolutely worse is red bull has been investigated regarding rear wing flexes, yet their wing being replaced under parc ferme, merc only had one issue and never had a fault before gets DSQ… i wanted to puke…
Ronald (@)
14th November 2021, 20:37
I puked when i saw Lewis almost killed Max in England!
Blakk
14th November 2021, 20:55
You have overly sensitive stomach
Mark (@blueruck)
14th November 2021, 21:32
+1 good one
Learon (@learon)
14th November 2021, 19:23
0.2mm out of the limits and you get disqualified. 5m or is the limits and no investigation is necessary.
I really want to understand how the rules are applied, but they make it very hard…
Srdjan Mandic (@srga91)
14th November 2021, 20:10
@learon
Very clever to compare technical and sporting regulations. If a car is illegal, it’s illegal – end of story. An incident on track is often a lot more complex than it seems at first sight.
Learon (@learon)
14th November 2021, 22:15
I think you are missing the point.
EffWunFan (@cairnsfella)
15th November 2021, 6:30
What is your point?
Neil (@neilosjames)
14th November 2021, 19:24
Strongly disagree, couldn’t believe it when I saw that it was no further action.
Hamilton had his nose ahead, Verstappen braked too late/opened his steering (doesn’t matter which, the outcome was the same) and missed the corner, going well off the track – in doing so, he ran the other car off the track and maintained his position.
If he’d run his own car to the edge, kept it on track and just pushed Hamilton off I could consider that to be racing and I’d be in agreement with the stewards. But you can’t just sling it down the inside without adequate control of the car to make the turn, miss the corner, shove the other car off and get away with it. Crazy decision.
Mark Zastrow (@markzastrow)
14th November 2021, 19:34
@neilosjames I think you hit the nail on the head. If Verstappen had kept it on the track and run Hamilton wide, that would be fair play. But he was never going to make the corner. This sets a precedent that drivers can now exceed track limits to defend their position.
David BR (@david-br)
14th November 2021, 19:42
@markzastrow It’s a good point. It would be quite easy to make it a penalty for failing to keep to the track yourself while forcing another driver wide.
Maybe FIA should issue new ‘special Max size’ race track plans, two metres extra each side, just for him, which he can use at will. Because that’s basically what they ended up allowing.
Jonathan (@jvg312)
14th November 2021, 19:52
Agreed @neilosjames – even Hamilton made Copse with contact disturbing his car better than Verstappen made Brazil T4…and that ended up penalized, all kind of surprising. Just a really confusing from the FIA and could result in more less than desireable racing.
Learon (@learon)
14th November 2021, 19:24
0.2mm out of the limits and you get disqualified. 5m out of the limits and no investigation is necessary.
I really want to understand how the rules are applied, but they make it very hard…
JohnH (@johnrkh)
14th November 2021, 19:28
Maybe it was not as bad as it looked from the outside, but the optics certainly gave the impression Verstappen opened up the steering on purpose.
fab
14th November 2021, 19:47
Lewis never did that, that’s true …..
Or not
https://youtu.be/ekrB8lK5DI4
Blakk
14th November 2021, 19:57
so it was a deliberate move in both cases or not ?
Mark (@blueruck)
14th November 2021, 21:35
+1
LB (@burden93)
14th November 2021, 19:28
I honestly could not believe it wasn’t a penalty. Though as others said elsewhere, I’m glad it led to Hamilton doing it on the track. I would love to see the Verstappen on board!!
I feel like the FIA need to get on top of this though, it’s just not fun watching every defense leading to cars going off track. There’s enough room for both cars to make it around corners!
Blakk
14th November 2021, 19:32
This gives Max a go-ahead sign in next races to push Lewis wide and crash into him, he will still retain his lead anyway and no penalty will be given
Davethechicken
14th November 2021, 19:33
If the telemetry and on boards were to subsequently show a deliberate crowding, is there a mechanism for a penalty to be awarded after the race?
Jazz
14th November 2021, 20:12
Yes, as you’ll remember from Silverstone, there’s grounds to appeal a stewards decision based on significantly new and previously unavailable evidence (but this does not mean wheeling out the nearest Albon!)
Miltiadis (@miltosgreekfan)
14th November 2021, 19:34
I think this incident clearly crossed the line of an “racing incident”. Hamilton was there at the corner and the only thing that Verstappen was aiming,was to run Hamilton wide risking a collision if Hamilton didn’t decide to back off. A 5 seconds penalty would be appropriate i think for this case
Olivier
14th November 2021, 19:41
I agree. Would a post race 5 second penalty for car 33 still be possible?
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2021, 19:45
in 2008 spa, they did one 25 sec penalty for ham for a rule that didnt exists until after the penalty awarded… with FIA everything is possible and impossible at the same time
Miltiadis (@miltosgreekfan)
14th November 2021, 20:45
I don’t think that they can apply a post race penalty for an incident that was declared as an racing incident during the race
David BR (@david-br)
14th November 2021, 21:00
@miltosgreekfan Well, Red Bull are the fans of ‘fresh evidence’. And Mercedes won’t even have to get Bottas to do some laps of Interlagos in his spare time to prove Max would never have made corner 4… because we know he didn’t.
Wayne
14th November 2021, 19:35
Where is the on board footage.
. Where???
BlueChris (@bluechris)
14th November 2021, 19:39
To me it was passing outside the track and for this reason he needed to give the place back. Crystal clear in my view.
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
14th November 2021, 19:41
It looked like a strange decision not to even investigate it. I mean, all Verstappen tried to do was to outbreak Hamilton. He made no efforts at all to turn into the corner and fully knowing that he would take Hamilton with him to the runoff or both out of the race if Hamilton hadn’t opened his steering.
Is it worth looked at? For sure.
Is it worth a penalty? It’s a thin line and he might have gotten away with a reprimand.
But it what was definitely Michael Schumacher like dirty driving…
Blakk
14th November 2021, 19:43
Typically Max’s driving style…
“my way or crash”
Broderick Harper (@banbrorace)
14th November 2021, 19:47
Sadly that is correct.
Ironically, it could cost him the WDC – as if he’d done what Hamilton did here, at Silverstone, i.e yield, then he would potentially have 33 points more Lewis.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
14th November 2021, 22:19
Yes, told you verstappen reminds me of schumacher!
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
15th November 2021, 14:12
Absolutely, the good, the bad and the ugly!
F1 frog (@f1frog)
14th November 2021, 19:42
I’m not sure whether or not that was a penalty, but I don’t understand why the stewards didn’t at least investigate it rather than just noting it, although I would be interested to know the difference.
Broderick Harper (@banbrorace)
14th November 2021, 19:45
They didn’t investigate it because both went off the track.
In other words they’ve totally contradicted themselves. Massi stated that they investigate the incident not the outcome.
Clearly that’s nonsense, because if Hamilton ended up in the barrier because he didn’t yield (i.e. like Verstappen at Silverstone) then they’d obviously have investigated and found Max guilty.
Broderick Harper (@banbrorace)
14th November 2021, 19:42
This was worse than Silverstone. The key difference was that Hamilton was sensible enough to yield, go wide himself.
And because of that the stewards see them both been equally at fault.
In other words don’t yield and have a big impact and then we’ll blame your opponent. Get out of the way and stay on track = racing incident
Jere (@jerejj)
14th November 2021, 19:43
Strongly disagree. Inconsistency stroke again considering similar past incidents.
rowmk9
14th November 2021, 19:46
It was hard racing and looking at it coldly, Max maintained his position by leaving the track, so for me it would’ve been worthy of a penalty. In addition, he forced Lewis off the track as well so it should’ve been a slam dunk. We saw Lando get a penalty for a lot less against Perez in Austria. I think if the incident say, was between an Aston Martin and an Alpine for 12th place, then the stewards would’ve happily slapped a penalty on them, but backed out of this one. Also, as someone noted above, Max was risking contact as he can now afford to run the clock down with races, and had no other defense against Lewis today.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
14th November 2021, 19:47
I disagree with the “no investigation”. It deserved an investigation.
Even if no one was going to be penalised, how can they say it for sure without investigating further? They only “noted’ it…
Kiarie (@kiarie)
14th November 2021, 19:47
The Silver Arrows are properly galvanized now and the fizzy drinks maker can’t muster up a real challenge on track instead reverting to underhand tactics to introduce doubts on the merc package. par for the course for the sugary drinks makers unfortunately.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
14th November 2021, 19:49
For the sake of the race, I have to admit I was glad that there was no penalty because even a 5 second penalty would have ended the competition there and then. However:
This is a total contradiction. How can they have ‘had a good look at it’ and yet had ‘no investigation’. There certainly seemed to be enough evidence and circumstance to at least warrant a normal investigation, and I suspect if different drivers were involved they would have issued a 5 second penalty without much hesitation.
Zann (@zann)
14th November 2021, 19:58
It was 100% obviously deliberate crowding Hamilton off the track, really they’re so desperate to end Lewis/Mercedes’ reign
Ajayrious (@ajayrious)
14th November 2021, 20:00
Cannot decide as we cannot see the front facing onboard from Max to see what he was doing with the steering wheel.
Fishingelbow (@fishingelbow)
14th November 2021, 20:54
We don’t have to see what Max was doing with the steering wheel to know what happened: Max wasn’t even close to the apex! From that point on, the outcome was predetermined and Max was going off the track or crashing into Lewis unless the latter went even farther off the track. Either way, it was good for Max.
ttongsul (@ccpbioweapon)
14th November 2021, 20:04
Slam dunk penalty, average neutral fan who isn’t a fanboy can see that Max was forcing contact to prevent a legal overtake. Obviously the NASCAR stewards who want destruction derby racing didn’t give Max at least a 5 second penalty.
So lets get this straight, Yuki Tsunoda gets 10 second penalty for late lunge overtake attempt into T1 but Max gets nothing for forcing a car that is ahead into evasive action driving OFF TRACK to avoid contact does not? Looks like Lewis is getting the 2008 FIA treatment again..atrocious stewarding
On a similar subject, the entire F1 broadcast was a joke amateurish affair, clownish David croft making mistake after mistake, fom broadcasting the long drawn out start replay whilst completely missing the live action especially Lewis making positions overtaking LEC and BOT, no onboard footage of Max cockpit when he forced Lewis into avoiding action off track, I guess that was deliberate because that would prove his guilt that he opened his steering.
Great win for Lewis against all odds but i hate that he has to fight against bias stewarding and mario kart randomness American owners Liberty media loves
Philip (@philipgb)
14th November 2021, 20:15
Hamilton initially looks ahead. Then it looked to me like Verstappen eased off the brake and steering basically setting his car on a collision course
I wouldn’t have called Monza dirty, that was reasonably excused as a split second error of judgement, but this looked dirty to me
Ronald (@)
14th November 2021, 20:53
As dirty as Silverstone where Max almost lost his life?
Philip (@philipgb)
14th November 2021, 23:23
I accounted in my post why I feel verstappens move today was dirty
I don’t see any cause to consider Hamilton’s incident in Silverstone dirty, it was an error he was at fault and rightly penalised for much like Verstappen at Monza, but I don’t see how it was dirty
DaveW (@dmw)
15th November 2021, 1:25
Did Max have a near miss with a speeding bus sometime after the race?
Davey
14th November 2021, 20:16
Max didn’t win was enough, so I neither agree or disagree.
w0o0dy (@w0o0dy)
14th November 2021, 20:20
I guess Max should have done a LH on the back wheel and watch Lewis slide into the barriers… That would have been fair according to the majority of people here. Right… Back wheel tap coming up!
ian dearing
14th November 2021, 20:32
He couldnt as Ham isnt stupid enough to close the door and allow Max to hit him. Just live to fight another day. But I suspect Max will have another go or two over the next few races to ensure he keeps his points lead.
x303 (@x303)
14th November 2021, 20:49
Strongly disagree, that deserved at least an investigation.
As others have noted, I’m glad it was decided on track. I can easily imagine Horner or Marko’s complains had Hamilton ran Verstappen off the track.
Alex
14th November 2021, 21:02
Why haven’t they released Max’s onboard. They didn’t even investigate.
jff
14th November 2021, 21:31
Almost 80% has a ‘strong’ opinion.
That’s a bit disappointing. I was expecting a more balanced view from racing fans.
I personally think it should be investigated, and penalised. But there are some grey areas and can see why some say it is acceptable.
I guess the strong views are partly a result of many having a clear favourite for the title.
Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
14th November 2021, 22:07
There is nothing to question. Max is ahead and on the inside, Ham is behind and on the outside, both missed the turn, both come out exactly where they were. Max missed the corner by less than Ham but by more than he needed, most likely trying to defend t5.
Jim from US (@jimfromus)
15th November 2021, 1:05
The camera on the #1 car was not live during the epic battle for first in the race. Not buying it.
Let’s go Masi!
Andy Bunting (@wildbiker)
15th November 2021, 7:51
More LibFlix bullchit.
The race director & stewards were formerly, fair, reasonably unbiased & beyond suspicion.
Now all just LibFlix shills. More dodgy, dicey, suspicious decisions than the UK’s politicotards.
F1 being “driven off” into the gutter of some fantasy showtime.
OOliver
15th November 2021, 9:54
We don’t need to go back many years to find out how the FIA has handled such incidents. Let us just look at how they have handled these things just this year alone and you begin so wonder if we are dealing with bipolar stewards or just those with a special filter.
powersteer (@powersteer)
15th November 2021, 10:07
Not even an investigation.
What an insult to Lando Norris who received a penalty for that T4 incident with Sergio in Austria 2021
Someone
15th November 2021, 12:26
What a joke that we can’t see the Verstappen onboard camera. Also F1 YouTube channel has terrible zoom in and camera shake that puts Hamilton’s car completely out of frame when view from the helicopter. There is certainly obfuscation.
I have no trust in FIA because they’re not transparent at all, even doing educational analyzing videos by third parties are forbidden. Formula 1 maybe has one more year for mas as there are new regulations next year. This is not a competition or a sport.
Tom Mariner
15th November 2021, 16:09
The most blatant instance of running a rival off the track in a long time in F1. Not just squeezing the car passing to the outside line, but even Verstappen was light years off the track. Yes, strange that there were plenty of images of Hamilton’s hands on the wheel during the incident but somehow none of Max’s steering wheel position. No Really.
And the dramatic weaving down the straight to prevent passing got Max a warning of “do it 23 more times and we may investigate”.
But the better driver won. Oh wait, the attentive stewards gave a fine and almost a penalty to Lewis for [wait for it] a seat belt use on the final slow lap.
Now that Max had gotten away with his aggressive behavior, next will come taking Lewis out by running into him because if both exit, Max wins the Championship.
Norm
16th November 2021, 4:06
Does it even matter what we think? FIA don’t even care nor being consistent on penalty.
Sacha Gortchakoff (@gosac)
16th November 2021, 14:38
the most SOLOMONIC JUDGEMENT I can remember =>
=> TOP KUDOS FOR THE STEWARDS !
Ian Stephens
16th November 2021, 18:29
I think it was Catch-22 for the stewards. Either they ignored the incident because car #44 quickly took the place again, putting the race position back to how it was just before the incident, or they deferred until after the race when they could see the in-car video from car #33. Any penalty for the driver of car #33 would then have necessarily changed the race outcome (by putting car #33 even further back, behind car #77, in the results). They did have the telemetry, which is not public but is available to all the teams in real time. Perhaps they did not have the skills available to them for a telemetry analysis or, more likely, it points to incompetence rather than malice.
There is a separate case for a punitive response. if the in-car video and telemetry showed a deliberate attempt to run car #44 off the track, or worse to cause a collision to nullify car #44’s advatage, then a punishment would be appropriate to deter other drivers and especially the driver of car #33. For that they would have had to defer the decision until after the race to compare the videos and telemetry with other laps.
It was the skill of the driver of car #44 on the outside which avoided a serious collision. With the less competent driver on the outside it would be different, as at Silverstone and Monza.