Screenshot: Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton on lap 48 of the 2021 Sao Paulo Grand Prix

F1 releases missing video footage from Verstappen’s car of Hamilton incident

2021 Sao Paulo Grand Prix

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Formula 1 has released the forward-facing camera footage from Max Verstappen’s car showing the controversial lap 48 incident between him and Lewis Hamilton during last weekend’s Sao Paulo Grand Prix.

The two championship contenders went off the track at Descida do Lago, turn four, when Hamilton tried to pass Verstappen for the lead around the outside of the corner.

The video showing Verstappen’s cockpit view of the incident was not broadcast at the time because a rearward-facing shot was being transmitted from the Red Bull. FIA F1 race director Michael Masi confirmed the stewards did not have access to the video when they decided not to investigate the incident between the pair.

The footage reveals Verstappen’s perspective of the incident. After he moved to cover the inside line for the corner, Hamilton drew alongside and past him as they approached the braking zone. Verstappen is still flat out on the throttle as the Mercedes pulls almost a full car length ahead of him to his right.

Verstappen then draws back alongside Hamilton as the pair begin to slow for the corner. He applies less than 45 degrees of steering angle as he runs wide of the apex, then increases the angle before heading off the track, with Hamilton on his outside joining him in running wide.

Max Verstappen, Lewis Hamilton, Interlagos, 2021
Poll: Did the stewards take the correct decision over Hamilton and Verstappen at turn four?
“We both of course, tried to be ahead into the corner, and so I braked a bit later to try and keep the position and the tyres were already a bit worn,” Verstappen explained afterwards.

“So I was really on the edge of grip, so that’s why I think I was already not fully on the apex. And it’s a safer way, of just running a bit wide there.”

Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff said Verstappen’s defending was “just over the line”, “should have been a five-second penalty at least” and criticised the stewards’ decision not to investigate the incident as “laughable”.

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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213 comments on “F1 releases missing video footage from Verstappen’s car of Hamilton incident”

  1. Still looks as clear a penalty as it did on Sunday.

    1. Yeah, any speculation as to his inputs are gone (apart from intent, but that’s not in the rules). So, remains that Verstappen didn’t really try to make the corner; could he have made it had he tried, or were the tyres old and was he going too fast to make the corner then?

      It is effectively just as dangerous (if not more so), from a driving perspective, to lose control of the car sufficiently to crowd off your competitor as it would be that you intentionally let it happen; in both cases the fix would be to not break that late, and clearly, apply more steering while doing so. He could have avoided it. Needs an investigation, even more clearly than it was obvious in the race, should be done now by stewards with integrity.

      1. Even more so now actually. Looking at onboards, drivers typically have about 90 degrees of steering lock going into that corner. Verstappen didnt have more than 45.

        If he didnt have grip, he shouldve braked earlier. But the no grip argument is suspect because he had decent pace for the rest of the race, and managed to keep Lewis behind for another few laps. I was a Verstappen fan until this year, but he’s just pushing too far too often. He’s got a quick enough car to not need to resort to this.

        1. Seeing that video I’d actually argue that his line, speed, turning input etc is almost irrelivent due to the fact he’s well behind Hamilton going into the corner. I origianlly thought they were along side eachother, but clearly Hamilton is ahead. Max therefore overtook and ran wide which is clearly against the rules.

          That’s really not a good standard of driving. Max is so poor in wheel to wheel racing, it’s laughable that people think he’ll be a multiple champion.

          1. He is well behind and in the camera facing back towards the helmet it is pretty clear he is keeping a close eye on exactly where Hamilton is as well.

            Clearly he is driving intentionally in such a way that Hamilton can either back off or go off track. Both mean he cannot pass.

            Pretty much doing exactly what Norris and Perez got penalties for doing in Austria. And exactly what they were explicitly warned not to do in Mexico.

            If we want this to be OK, then they should clearly say so to the stewards. And stop penalising other drivers from doing so. But I fear that it will lead to accidents either in F1 or even more likely from junior series where all the drivers will start doing this kind of moves all the time.

          2. BTW I haven’t seen the Sky video (region locked) but looked at the far more complete one posted by F1 itself including the outboard, inboard, and helmet facing ones from both cars.

          3. Max is so poor in wheel to wheel racing, it’s laughable that people think he’ll be a multiple champion.

            Talking about HAM at Silverstone?!?!

          4. Ben – reminder that Vettel is a 4x world champion.

  2. I don’t think this advances things one way or the other. He doesn’t open the steering (as the Sky commentators suggested he might have), but equally he’s a long way from full lock as well.

    I doubt this will be sufficient evidence to persuade the stewards to reopen the investigation (or just “open” it, since they never investigated it in the first place), even in the event of a Mercedes protest, but who can predict the behaviour of the F1 race officials?

    1. @red-andy It’s not just steering, it’s a combination of steering input, throttle and braking. The officials would presumably need data on all three to evaluate just how hard Verstappen tried to make the corner. But really it’s irrelevant. They, we, everyone, knows that Verstappen’s tyres weren’t so bad he just had to go 5 car-widths wide to be ‘safe’. He simply did what he could to block Hamilton from passing.

      This kind of debate is pointless when it’s based on bad faith from the outset – in this case, the bad faith of Masi and his FIA staff who preferred to ‘let them race’ than apply racing regulations because it was less troublesome for them and more spicy for the racing on track. My respect for them is zero. What’s the point in debating whether the data is enough now or not? None at all.

      1. I don’t even get why it would be ok if the tyres are cooked, it’s still misjudgment. On his own, he would potentially go wide, lose a bit of time, get a bit of dirt on his tyres and penalize himself, end of story (even if the rest of his race doesn’t suggest any particular struggle at any point).

        Not giving a penalty (or even investigating) is effectively allowing the inside car to outbreak the outside one every single time while not on the racing line, that’s an interesting concept but they might as well state it then. I don’t mind if rules are changed for more racing or whatever but I like a fair game and we getting further from that with inconsistent policing.

        Yes every case is different and there will always be room for interpretation (hence the composition of the steward committee) but still if the ground principles are unclear, that won’t help to police without guideline and open up the doors wide for conspiracy theories. Does it mean we will soon have Liberty, using Amazon analytics to decide the penalty depending on the show (Lewis is fast enough to go close again and keep the battle going, Max penalty is killing the GP).

        It’s also going the opposite way to the track limit enforcement. Does it mean that coordinate driving by two teammates can use off track for better lines? Alonso raised the point on what is allowed or not and we might end up with more and more drivers using questionable driving to push the limits as they always do, until someone ram another.

    2. I don’t think this advances things one way or the other.

      But for clicks you don’t want things to advance, better drip feed the info and blow each tidbit out of proportions.

      I think it was a penalty-worth offence on Sunday, and still think so.
      I only review the comment section to see how far everybody is dug in now.

    3. I am all about letting them race, these fights make it exciting, whatever you might think of it. LH fans will be against, MV fans will be pro. This is a WCship so things are heating up. Racing on the edge or over it, like LH at Silverstone. Just deal with it or watch something else

      1. @Allsop
        I agree with u.

      2. geoffgroom44 (@)
        16th November 2021, 18:54

        I am all for letting them race.Indeed, Hamilton showed with all his overtakes – before he got to MV – that it is perfectly possible to have good exciting racing within the rules. BTW, I am all for that as well, a level playing field (or racing track) where everyone is required to follow the rules.

        1. Exactly. If they’re going to “just let them race”, then they need to do so consistently. Not change the rules depending on who’s involved.

          That said, I don’t agree with the anything goes. “Back off or I’ll crash you out” should not be an acceptable tactic.

        2. Letting them race is such a cop out. Why not just stick them in stock cars and pound each other.

      3. I’m all about letting them race too, so can all other drivers start defending this way? Can Bottas and Ham start pushing MV off the track in similar fashion? If FIA dare to step out and say yes, I will support this. Gloves off!

    4. He also pushing throttle before the apex.

  3. Initial steering appears Max was trying to squeeze Hamilton to the edge of the track but carries too much speed into the corner at the point he wanted to increase steering lock and runs wide as a result, seen drivers given penalties for similar so I wouldn’t be surprised if Mercedes asked for a review

    1. this is the same move rosberg did in austria…

      https://youtu.be/9Yr44gBkfhQ?t=58
      no steering lock until the edge of the corner, rosberg’s corner was tighter so it became blatantly clear.

      here he literally is driving like he is on the straight turning a very high speed corner only makes full lock at the edge of the circuit!

      his intention cant be denied with just i brake a bit later… he didnt use his brake like he was going into a corner morelikely lifted off only, what is more obvious is he has been checking of ham’s whereabouts from straight all the way to off corner! after he ensured “safe” approach of pushing ham off circuit then he made attempt to turn… what a disgusting piece of a driver and disgusting stewardship…. no investigation necessary… what a balony

  4. I’m now more inclined to believe that Max did genuinely attempt to make the corner, albeit only after ensuring 100% the apex block was successful and that Lewis would be ran wide. So from an intent perspective he does better than Rosberg’s “IDGAF” block from Austria 2016

    With that said the outcome was Max forcing Lewis off the road, leaving the track himself and maintaining an advantage in so doing, so I’m still not a fan of the no-call here.

    1. This is about as fair a comment as we’ll see. I’m not convinced that Max steered as fully to the left as he should/could have but if this is fair game and done by all of the drivers when they’re defending a corner, then so be it. Could there be a good argument however that he failed to leave his opponent a car’s width, thus it should have been a penalty?

    2. Lol of course he didn’t ‘attempt to take the corner’. What this shows is him still changing down at the apex, and steering for an apex many metres beyond the one on the actual track. It’s all in the timing, and slam dunk to any stewards who were really interested in applying the rules impartially.

      1. I guess Max is the new Schumi. Drive hard and when that doesn’t work drive the completion off the road or run into them. Also, and more concerning was the FIAs lack of action on the weaving down the road by Max. Rules are clear, pick a side or the middle but not back and forth. If Max isn’t checked he is going to really hurt someone or himself. There is tough race-craft and then there is dirty race-craft and Max crossed the line several times in Brazil. His ego is writing checks the regulation should not let him cash!!

  5. If your tires are worn you don’t brake later for the turn that you would with fresh tires, that’s an odd excuse.

    1. It’s insane. Compare it with Hamiltons pole lap and Max starts braking in the same place, just before the 50m board.

      So a car on the softest tyres and minimal fuel can break at the 50m board and Max thinks he can do that on 15 lap old hard tyres with much more fuel. And still people think he’s a good racer… Apparently he doesn’t even know how to turn a steering wheel either…

      1. You know it happens almost at the end so the fuel load is marginal…

  6. Max is a dirty racer!

    1. nothing dirty about this and what lewis always did too. Makes sense on what lewis said as he expected already because he would do this also…

      1. @macleod Lewis, and all drivers, squeeze the outside driver to force him to either lift or go off track, but always while remaining inside track limits, which Verstappen didn’t, and not by a few centimeters. Had Max stayed within track limits, there probably wouldn’t be an argument at all, just racing as usual. But the fact that Max didn’t make the corner is what separates this from anything remotely similar. Whether you consider this dirty or not, it clearly should have been penalized.

        1. @warheart Not always at all. Lewis has gone off track a time or two, including an entirely different type of issue where he floored it off track at Turn 1 and didn’t let the pack catch up until they were well out of any kind of long straight on the track.

          Any comment that suggests Hamilton is a clean racer or even always tries to be a clean racer is 100% ignored because Lewis is exactly the same kind of driver and that alone is why Nico only beat him once to the championship.

          1. @neiana can you tell me one instance where Lewis has pushed someone wide while going off track himself at the same time and hasn’t been penalized for it?

          2. @warheart in 2008 spa, he was pushed off the circuit by raikonnen, he cut the corner, and gave the position back, overtook him, raikonnen crashed out of the race all on his own alone, but ham was penalized for a rule that didnt exists until after the race and penalty given, they made up a rule right away, and 25 sec pen given!

            here ham pushed off circuit blatantly, they couldnt even find the footage for nearly 2.5 days! what a piece of FIA ruling….

        2. @warheart Still that does not make him a dirty driver! Senna Prost coming to each other that is dirty OR Schumancer and Hill into the wall that is dirty. This is just racing and a good example to remove those asfalt runoffs because this wouldn’t happen if there was gravel.

          1. @macleod never said he was a dirty driver, although he’s far from being the cleanest on the grid. That was a dirty maneouvre, though. Had there been a gravel trap, the only difference would’ve been that Hamilton would’ve been out of the race as well, or they would’ve crashed. He either purposedly pushed Hamilton off the track, or he overshot the corner badly enough to need 5-6 metres of the runoff to turn the car.

            Tell me something, do you thing Max would’ve attempted something like this if it was Bottas on the outside? Hamilton’s fighting for the championship, Bottas is there to help Hamilton and Mercedes, so he wouldn’t need any avoiding action. Just stay in the track, let Max crash into him. Both drivers out and a more than likely penalty for Max for the next race for causing an avoidable collision.

            And, as I said in my previous comment, you claim this is “what Lewis always did too”, but you still haven’t mentioned a single instance where Hamilton has pushed someone wide while going 5 metres off track.

          2. @warheart I think it was something between this scarying Lewis to brake squicing Lewis to let him brake. I think Max would made the turn if the was a gravel trap there. You could see that onboard he went to the runoff when Lewis went to there. I never thought they would crash at all if Max was planning this he would try to hit Lewis rear wheel in that corner as you saw at the start of the video Max right tyre was just next to Lewis rear wheel.

            I don’t think he will needs this against Bottas maybe at the start of the race in turn 1.

          3. @macleod

            I think Max would made the turn if the was a gravel trap there.

            Just so I’m clear, this means you don’t think Max had overshot the corner, but that he willingly pushed Hamilton off the track, right? Because I don’t see a third option.

          4. @warheart push not really block yes

          5. @macleod but in the process he went at least 5 metres wide, meaning he either wasn’t in control of the car (overshot the corner) or he was and willingly went off track. Was Max able to turn within track limits at this point? https://imgur.com/a/Jv3LuwN

            If he was, there is no excuse for him to go into the runoff the way he did. He gained an advantage by doing so, and should be penalized. If he wasn’t, he had overshot the corner and forced Hamilton to do an evasive maneouvre to avoid an accident, and should be penalized. Divebombing another driver with this “you either avoid me off track or we’re crashing” mentality is as far from fair racing as it gets.

    2. @72defender, I get what you’re saying but I think “dirty” is a bit extreme here. I dont like or agree with the move and I do wish the racing had been ‘cleaner’ as I don’t think he needed to defend that aggressively or go that far off. Perhaps a bit clumbsy or excessive. It’s more the sort of move you do, knowing it might be a bit much, and apologize for later.

      Here are some things that I would consider truly dirty: intentionally made contact, pushed him into or very near a wall by not allowing enough space, or straight up crashed into Lewis knowing that it would benefit himself if both go out.

  7. So it’s clear – on approach to the corner he didn’t apply anywhere near enough steering angle; only later does he apply full steering. Sneaky and predictable – I look forward to the review (purely to help him understand what is acceptable in regards to sportsmanship).

    1. Be interesting to see a comparison with the previous lap, does he turn in sharp enough initially?

    2. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
      16th November 2021, 20:07

      @theswift Exactly, he doesn’t apply enough steering lock to negotiate the corner until it’s too late. The state of his tyres is irrelevant, he wasn’t trying to make the apex.

    3. You don’t turn your steering wheel UNTILL you have a certain speed you can turn. This is not a videogame where you can turn you wheel and the car goes around the corner. Ask any real racer and they will tell you this.

  8. Max is a very clever driver. He brakes too late (we knew that of course) but you can see him keep his steering wheel straight or turn it left twice (too late). He never turns his steering wheel towards the right (the track doors that for him). I believe that will keep him off the hook.
    Now, whether his braking was too late intentionally or not is impossible to prove. Therefore I cannot see the outcome being judged as anything else than a racing incident. Of course, Max has taken people off track intentionally before (like many other drivers), but I do not think the FIA or FOM (or whoever would adjudicate) would/can take this into consideration.

    1. Now, whether his braking was too late intentionally or not is impossible to prove.

      @learon it would be possible to compare the telemetry of his braking points in that corner in the laps leading up to this incident and just. Given that he’s on the inside of the corner and having to take a tighter line than normal, he should be braking several metres earlier than he did in the laps leading up to the incident, any later and he’s at fault

      1. @3dom yes of course- thanks for point this out!

        I assume that all the telemetry data is owned by the FIA, and that Mercedes cannot have access to Max’s data; so would there need to be a FIA-led investigation to take place for the comparison you suggest to happen?

        1. @learon the stewards should have access to that information going by what we’ve been told, and from looking at this video I think they should at least have investigated it. I really wouldn’t be surprised if max started braking significantly deeper into that corner on only that one specific lap

  9. Doesn’t really change anything. Was an obvious penalty before, is an obvious penalty now. If you brake too late to make the corner, and in doing so run your rival off track and fail to stay on it yourself, that’s obviously a penalty, no matter what your steering angle is.

    I really don’t even see how this is up for debate. Opens the door for any driver to fly up the inside at any speed they want and use any run off to maintain that speed and their position. Unless of course the driver they’re racing turns in, and there’s a collision…then as we saw with Tsunoda and Stroll, that’s a 10 second penalty.

    1. Alonso vs Kimi in Austin. Judges said that both at fault but because Alonso left no option for Kimi. It was therefore ok to Kimi to overtake off the track.

      https://youtu.be/b8V5nxKXvG0

      Now this one is a no brainer. Hamilton was not able to overtake or not able to keep it inside track limits. Alonso was at fault even if himself did not leave the track.

    2. @j4k3
      Yup, not having this video is no excuse for not applying a penalty, you can clearly see the sequence of events by the cars relative positions on the overhead view. As far as I’m aware there’s no information that the lack of this evidence affected the stewards’ decision though, just Masi stating the fact that they hadn’t seen it. The only thing this could have shown is intent, in which case a more severe penalty would be warranted.

  10. the video is not available in your location

      1. Made me chuckle…

  11. As I suspected, it was similar to Rosberg’s move on Hamilton in 2016. Rosberg at least had the argument that he had a brake by wire problem. It looks like Verstappen wanted to really close the outside line based on his steering inputs. Whether he wanted to force Hamilton off the track or crash into him is actually questionable here. It’s kind of like a “chop” but in the middle of the corner rather than on the straight. It also reminds me of his move in Spain against Hamilton at the start. I’d be surprised if Mercedes decide to launch a request, that there will be a penalty because based on the steering inputs it looks borderline.

    If Wolff says diplomacy is over, Mercedes should launch a protest. I have popcorn ready just like all incidents this year.

  12. And it changes nothing.
    Like I said initially looks like Max was defending the run to 5, he is half way into 4 when he opens the steering, it helps him get a better run to defend t5.
    Both drivers missed the corner. Lewis could have gone for the over and under. Eventually Ham went with a similar move, a dummy in t1 and subsequent better exit on 3.
    Brundle jumped too quickly and almost convinced everybody of his opinion, again.

    1. You must be watching an entirely different clip. HAM didn’t miss the corner, he had nowhere to go.

    2. @peartree Your bias really does know no bounds.

      Hamilton was ahead going into the corner but couldn’t contiune with his line because Max was sliding across the track line a mad man. Hamilton can’t just stop and wait for Max to go sliding out of the way. He has to react to Max’s error to avoid contact.

      1. Totally agree.

      2. To be fair to @peartree, Will Buxton, employed by FOM, also uses that argument against giving a penalty, even though it is so obviously flawed as an argument.

    3. Both drivers missed the corner.

      I can’t believe you actually typed this. Of course Lewis missed the corner – didn’t you see him taking avoiding action?

  13. It is a very late turn in by Verstappen. You can see he is beginning to drift away from the apex but still doesn’t increase the steering input until later (when it is almost guaranteed to not make the corner). This seemed very similar to Rosberg in Austria 2016. I would argue Rosberg actually was more fairer as Rosberg at least himself made the corner himself without going off the track. And if Rosberg got a penalty for that, can’t see how Verstappen shouldn’t.

    1. These were his quotes in the press conference: “We both of course, tried to be ahead into the corner, and so I braked a bit later to try and keep the position and the tyres were already a bit worn. So I was really on the edge of grip, so that’s why I think I was already not fully on the apex. And it’s a safer way, of just running a bit wide there.”

      Point is, he can’t say he is on the edge of the grip is he is simply not putting enough steering input.
      If you see Lewis’ onboard, you can see Lewis puts in a tight angle at first, increases it even more and then has to open up as Max hasn’t yet started turning in.
      If you see Max’s onboard, his steering inputs start coming in only after he is ahead of Lewis, you see Lewis’ front wing disapear from the right edge of the video and Verstappen putting full steering lock in the same frame.

      1. I don’t think the steering input would have made a difference – if he increased the steering input, he’d have just slid into Hamilton. He tried to break too late into the corner so from then, he was going wide whatever happened.

  14. It’s not penalty worthy. Even Hamilton himself didn’t think so and said he’d have done the same – in an article on this site! Imagine the ridiculousness of calling to punish the guy after the race after a performance like that – it’s not like Hamilton needs any help here anymore! But of course nobody can ever cross a Mercedes or Hamilton, can they?

    1. What next? Will Mercedes use the sim driver to recreate the scene after the race and try to pass that as a new evidence? It’d be stupid, right @rocketpanda? 😜

      1. … you do remember that was after he was punted off the track at 51g and blamed continually for causing a collision, right? I mean if you want to compare two unrelated incidents with entirely disconnected outcomes sure, you do you.

        1. If you’ve paid attention, you’ll see that I’m not comparing the incidents themselves but rather how a team could react and the lengths that they’d go to, to make a point. And how stupid they make themselves look in the process.

      2. @rockgod Yeah it would be stupid since there was no investigation towards which they could present ‘new evidence.’ In the case of this incident, it was a racing one that was only noteworthy.

        To call it as I see it based on the fact of the stewards not even investigating, which begs the question why, this was two amazing drivers vying for the WDC in a p___ing contest and neither wanted to cede to the other at that particular moment. They let it be a racing incident rather than interfering with the Championship in the stewards room. They will interfere for harsher things such as actual contact, but for this particular incident at this particular time, I’m glad they let it go.

        1. They will interfere for harsher things such as actual contact,

          This is the key. Lewis is punished for being intelligent enough to swerve and avoid contact with Max. There are too many such instances to list. Then suddenly the discussion becomes, “Oh it’s not worthy because there’s no contact”.

          1. @rockgod How was LH punished?

          2. @robbie In Brazil, he wasn’t because Verstappen couldn’t hold him up no matter how hard he tried. But it’s usually by losing a position (Spain) or a piece of bodywork (Imola) or worse DNF (Monza).

        2. @robbie the stewards shouldn’t be intimidated into inaction by being scared about “impacting the championship” when the purpose of their role is that they are meant to uphold the rules irrespective of who they are investigating.

          Would it have been considered acceptable to issue penalties if it had involved two drivers further down the field? Why is it considered acceptable to impact the championship when it involves a driver further down the field by penalising them, but not those at the front?

          Frankly, I hate the attitude that rules can be bent or ignored because it involves the championship protagonists – the rules should be applied to them in the same way that it would to any other driver in the field. Why should the stewards engage in favouritism and bias by not holding those at the front to the same standards that they hold others further down the grid to?

      3. @rockgod

        I was thinking the same thing! If Toto calms down and wants have a bit of chuckle at Horner, he’d get Vandorne down to Interlagos and run simulations with a 2 year old car!

        I wish we’d had the internet during 80s, the comments would have been gold.

    2. @rocketpanda evidence of Max’s telemetry traces, particularly his speed and throttle traces, has also emerged and provides evidence contradicting Max’s claims that he just braked a bit later than usual.

      When compared to his previous laps, it’s not just that Max was braking later and going at least 35-40kph faster than he normally would try to enter that corner at – it’s that Max is hitting the accelerator earlier in the corner than he normally would and using full throttle where he had been feathering the throttle previously.

      Thus, at the point in the corner where he has claimed he was trying to slow down, the telemetry data suggests he is instead accelerating – there is thus a reasonable question to ask about whether the evidence from the telemetry data, which we know the stewards did not look at, suggests Max was behaving differently to what he has claimed he was doing.

  15. Where is the concrete wall on the left side when we need it?

  16. As others have said, Max was very smart in the way he did it, but surely there was only ever 2 outcomes:

    1 – Lewis turns in and makes contact

    2 – They both go off track

    I guess you could say, with great premonition, Lewis could have braked earlier and allowed Max to overshoot, in which case he absoutely would have had to give up the position if he did stay in front after joining… maybe that was his aim?

    But ultimately, with the outcome we had, I don’t see how it wasn’t at least investigated.

    1. But ultimately, with the outcome we had, I don’t see how it wasn’t at least investigated.

      This – as it stands, it leaves the stewards open to criticism like what Alonso has been giving then all year that race stewarding is at odds with the ‘let them race’ doctrine & is selective in it’s application, possibly weighted towards ‘the show’ and the confusing application of the rules is allowing some drivers to get away with competitive murder whilst others are being punished for lesser transgressions.

      1. Yep, indeed @optimaximal, and Masi’s non explainers usually don’t help a thing (though sometimes they provide detail that makes it worse than we assumed like this time confirming the stewards only looked at what we all saw on the live feed, nothing else).

    2. I don’t think Max was smart here at all. It is blatant for all to see he braked way too late. He won’t feel smart if he gets a penalty and loses more than second position he would have had if he had not performed this maneuver

  17. This footage doesn’t change anything. It is clear as day that he is not turning into Lewis as many people thought on social media.

    I agree with Peter Windsor’s take on his youtube channel. If you overtake on the outside you put yourself in danger for the driver from the inside driving to defend and push you to the outside. why would this incident be any different than the incident between Verstappen and Leclerc in Austria. Verstappen didn’t get a penalty in this case either!

    1. @kavu It’s quite simple, this is different because Verstappen didn’t stay on the track. Had Verstappen stayed on track then it would be fine, as his move in Spain, Imola, Austria vs Leclerc all were. This is very different.

    2. But Verstappen went way off the track. He was clearly steering only slightly left and then steers dramatically harder once he’s nearly off the track, so why not steer that much tighter before then?

      I’m sorry but this isn’t how racing operates. This is dirty driving it’s pure and simple. If he’d tried to actually make the corner and had just edged Hamilton out I’d be saying it was a fair racing manoeuvre and exciting to watch.

      You simply cannot just drive someone well off the track like that.

      1. @davidhunter13 “so why not steer that much tighter before then?” Because he had too much pace before then and had he tried to steer more left earlier he might have spun and collected LH. Max was only guilty of intentionally racing hard, which is why the stewards didn’t even investigate. Max and LH were (are) in a Championship battle in that corner and it was obvious neither wanted to cede. Sure Max is the ‘instigator’ here, but all he did was defend as hard as he possibly could. Max was ahead, then LH put himself ahead, and then Max got himself back ahead but obviously was then so deep that he had understeer, something LH has claimed time and time again when he would do this sort of thing to Nico.

        Oh I agree, usually “You simply cannot just drive someone well off the track like that,”
        so the fact that the stewards didn’t even investigate tells me they saw this more as a Championship dual than Max intentionally driving LH off the road. LH has done it many times to Nico. Max was intentionally doing everything in his power to keep LH behind, but he wasn’t being intentionally ‘dirty’ or whatever number of other descriptors that have been used. To me Masi and the stewards are sat there saying, hey, the world wants to see this Championship fight, they got through that unscathed, so let’s let them see it and not interfere with everything they do. I don’t expect Max nor any other driver to now think this is the best way to go about defending in a corner.

        1. @robbie I’d love to know how you have the insider knowledge seemingly off limits to the rest of us. How could you possibly know “he wasn’t intentionally being dirty”? Did MV tell you that himself? I guess his weaving down the straight wasn’t intentionally dirty too. Or his frankly detestable remark to the FIA regarding the black and white flag. Horner level hypocrisy and your bias is embarrassing.

          1. Jazz How do you have the insider knowledge seemingly off limits to the rest of us that Max was being intentionally dirty?

            What I’m going by is first off the lack of investigation, and then from there it was LH’s own reaction. It just doesn’t have the feel to me from both those factors like this was seen as anything dirty, by those within F1, and rather it is just rabid LH/Mercedes fans that aren’t happy enough with LH’s emphatic win and want to see Max further disadvantaged in the next race, and are way more bent out of shape over this than LH himself.

        2. @Robbie – you’re comparing this with previous Lewis vs Nico incidents but surely you’ll agree that Lewis always used to stay on track then. That’s the crucial difference. I’m not sure how you can also say he wasn’t being intentionally dirty here – in my opinion, the video actually shows that he was doing exactly that: he only really turned after confirming in his mirror that he’d pushed Lewis (by which time he was essentially off the track).

          Max was only guilty of intentionally racing hard, which is why the stewards didn’t even investigate.

          One could make the argument that racing hard is exactly what Lewis was doing at Silverstone but Max didn’t take avoiding action then (which Lewis did here).

          1. Emma I don’t know that the difference of going off the track is that crucial as there were times when LH just barely stayed on track, but sure, even if he never went as wide as Max did on the weekend, it is about some ‘dirty’ move as some posters suggest, and I just don’t see it that way. Max was simply overcooking it trying to defend, and had understeer like LH has often claimed. That to me is the crucial part when it comes to this notion that Max was doing something dirty with which to begin, not whether he went off track after the fact. This discussion has become about his intent, and I maintain his intent was to race hard, and not to be dirty.

            At Silverstone for sure LH was racing hard and what was different is that LH had only earned the right to be left space, and Max did that, but LH had never really had a strong position in spite of being left the inside line. And as we know from countless examples there is a point where one driver needs to leave room for the other, and then there comes a point where that lead driver can do a squeeze and take ownership of the corner. That’s what Max was doing in Silverstone. Remember the ruling was that LH hit Max. It’s only some posters that word it like Max hit LH. The onus was not on Max at that particular moment to make even more room for LH than he already had. The onus at that point was for LH to take the space afforded him and act accordingly knowing full well that the squeeze is often an inevitability, as he does it often himself. Instead he didn’t control his car and hit Max.

            In Brazil Max didn’t control his car but they were side by side and fighting the corner out after having traded places being ahead of each other going into the corner. It was far more a side by side situation than Silverstone. It comes down to the fine details as to exactly how close the cars are and exactly what realistic chance one guy has over the other, i.e. who actually owns the corner and who is being overly optimistic. I suggest that the stewards let this go because both were vying for the corner as they traded places three times going into the corner, with Max leading as he started to go wide. They both left each other space going in, and yeah Max squeezed LH out, and yeah Max said he went off as it was safer, and I think due to his speed to have tried to jink the wheel left too much might have caused him to spin, and to me potentially spin into LH.

            Yeah Max went in too hot for his line, and he understeered wide, and thankfully LH was able to go wide with him and they both lived to carry on the fight. That’s why LH called this the type of racing we want to see for the Championship. If LH didn’t think Max was doing anything other than pushing too hard to defend his position in the race and the Championship, I think he would have said so.

        3. Robbie, you are the only person basically saying “if you are carrying to much speed, you don’t simply turn the wheel and “make the corner”. You are right. That’s why this video doesn’t prove anything about Max’s intent to steer Lewis off the track. Max may have just out-braked himself. That would be his error, but acting like because he didn’t spin himself out so his steering wheel position would look good on the video replay is ludacris.

    3. You know @kavu I have no idea where the idea comes from (I know Sky talked about it but whatever; did Ziggo?) that it’s only bad if you actively turn into your opponent; clearly that would be bad. But here, the normal line into the corner would have Verstappen not only break a lot earlier so he now has more speed than he’d have otherwise (makes cornering harder), he also only really applies the ‘normal for this corner’ lock when he’s made sure he crowded HAM off the track.

      I agree, this video doesn’t quite change that, we could already make it out from the other views; but it does consolidate the view that the stewards were not doing the normal thing by not actually investigating (and a lot of precedent, like Rosberg’s 2016 Hockenheim penalty says it should be a relatively easy and clear penalty).

      Since Red Bull, and the Silverstone penalty decision for Hamilton focussed so much on ‘missing the apex’ being an issue, you’d think they also would agree with the need for at least an investigation.

    4. Quite ridiculous that Norris at Austria got a penalty for Perez going off all on his own but yet something like this doesn’t get a penalty. The stewards and the philosophy of the whole thing needs overhauled and Massi should be replaced immediately.

    5. @kavu Not following the racing line is the same as turning into Hamilton though. It’s a left turn so not steering means he is actually driving into Hamilton

  18. Five-second penalty-worthy. He could’ve turned more sharply left, given he had enough space on his left.
    Considering his tyre state, he should’ve braked earlier than on fresher rubber.
    I reckon he would’ve if any other driver were beside.

  19. So he brakes pretty late and then half heartedly turns in, at and angle that in no way would get him round that corner, which is of course what happens.

    Looks to me like he deliberately pushed Hamilton well off the track, I’m not sure how else you can look at it if you’re being serious. If he’d at least tried to take the corner but edged Hamilton out while going through the corner then I’d say that’s a fair racing incident and let it go, it he wasn’t even trying to take the corner himself.

    1. Overtaking is risk. If he wanted to make the corner 100% certainly then he would have no choice but lose the position 100%. Going in on someone will always be risky otherwise there’s no peril int he sport.

      Honestly I wonder what sport we’re all watching here. God I hate how DRS and tarmac runoffs have killed natural racing in F1

      1. So, let’s not have any overtaking then.

    2. @davidhunter13 As I say to you above, sure Max was overcooking it a bit which is obvious when we see Max ahead, then LH pull ahead on the outside, then Max get ahead again on the inside, but yeah now with what would turn out to be a bit too much pace. The ‘how else you can look at it’ is that he was trying to take the corner and not go wide but in defending he just carried too much pace into the corner and what happened happened. Max is guilty of intentionally racing hard, defending hard, but certainly not deliberately pushing LH off the track.

      1. Wonder where all the “if there’s a gap” folks have gone?

        Everyone wanted a hard fight for 7 years, and now that there is one, no one can handle it!

        1. Just curious – what was your take on Silverstone?

          1. Racing incident.

          2. Fair enough Jay.

  20. Mountain out of a molehill anyone?

    1. It actually looks like he got caught out by moving to the outside before the turn and then missing his turn in point for the apex, at which point, of course he’s not going to make the corner.

      1. @rpiian Sure, because Verstappen isn’t good enough to calculate his braking/steering even when under pressure for the lead?

        1. @david-br Well, to be fair, he missed the apex by half a meter. Its either a mistake or a calculated, deliberate action to force Hamilton wide, which seems to be part of the game. None of it matters anyway as the two could care less and have moved on.

          1. @rpiian Hamilton got a 10s penalty for missing the apex by less than that in Silverstone. And he actually was on the inside and had the racing line.

        2. @david-br Of course we all know Max is highly capable, and all he was doing was trying everything he had to defend against LH. He has of course shown us countless times his ability ‘to calculate his braking/steering even when under pressure for the lead.’ Most other drivers on the current grid would have been easily passed by LH on the outside, and here we have Max and F1 and the stewards giving us a Championship level dual that they are trying to decide in their cars, not in a steward’s room.

          1. Most other drivers on the current grid would have been easily passed by LH on the outside

            @robbie Because most/all other drivers would have ceded the position rather than drive Hamilton off track! Sorry, I’m cynical about this. You can’t drive like that and not be penalized. Only – as Verstappen gambled – you can if you’re in a title battle and guess that FIA want the spectacle rather than the stewards room. Tell me honestly: do you think any other driver would have been allowed to do what Verstappen did?

  21. It is consistency as at other occasions penalties have been given

  22. 100% he drove Hamilton of the track and Verstappen should have been penalised for the offence, surely a penalty at the next race

  23. I don’t think this proves that a penalty is necessary, but it certainly should’ve have been properly investigated. The fact Max barely uses any steering until he’s going to run wide shows that it was his intent to block Hamilton. He did gain an unfair advantage by running off track. The argument that they both went off track is ridiculous given that Lewis was running off the track to avoid hitting Max, his alternative was, hit Max, or just stomp on the brakes, stop, and wait for him to be out of his way?

  24. When I looked at the feature picture for the arrival at the top of this page, for a split second I thought that it was a mistake, and that an image of lap 59 when Hamilton overtook Verstappen had been used by mistake, because look how far ahead Hamilton is going into it! Was this not part of the argument that people were using for blaming Hamilton at Silverstone when the places were reversed? Weren’t people saying that Hamilton should have bailed out because he was behind so it was Verstappen’s corner? Of course you can get side by side if you don’t slow down enough to make the corner but your rival is trying to make the corner.

    Steering by itself might not be enough in isolation but in combination with positioning of both cars and braking points, I can’t really see how this shouldn’t have been investigated and how a penalty shouldn’t have been applied.

    1. @3dom The difference with Silverstone was that while LH was alongside, he was never enough so nor for long enough such that it was ‘his’ corner, and Max did his part by leaving plenty of room on the inside. And of course they touched etc etc. At Brazil Max was ahead, then LH was ahead but with Max still somewhat alongside, but then Max is ahead again, and then they’re about directly side by side as they both go off.

      1. But at the braking point in BR, Max was behind. The only reason he got back alongside Lewis is that he braked late. Of course that will get him alongside again… and will also get him to miss the corner because he’s going too fast.
        This is the exact same thing that happened at Silverstone, but with two differences: (1) the roles are reversed, and (2) the outside driver (Lewis in this case) did not turn in to try to stay on track but rather avoided an accident, something that Max failed to do at Silverstone

        1. Exactly @Fabien. Astounding that anyone can argue that Max was ahead here and so the corner was his and yet, the only reason he was ahead was because he didn’t brake.

          1. Fabien “The only reason he got back alongside Lewis is that he braked late. Of course that will get him alongside again” Yes and that’s racing. Max took a chance by doing his utmost, but alas he had understeer and went wide and took LH with him. That’s hard racing.

            Where you have it wrong with Silverstone is that you are implying Max needed to turn in to stay on track which is not the case, and he only turned in because he had done his part in leaving LH the racing room, and then as usual at a point a lead driver gets to squeeze out the trailer. This is why the ruling was that LH hit Max. Max had given LH the option to use the space he left him and either race it out, back out, or hit him, just as WDC level drivers have always been applauded for ‘stamping their authority’ on the situation in a Champion’s manner. Max had no onus to back out nor move further wide than he already had, as he always had the stronger position before LH hit him. There is a reason why LH was the penalized one.

            Emma not sure if you mean Silverstone or Brazil but personally I haven’t said that I thought Max owned the corner in Brazil but that he and LH were both vying for it and that is why the stewards let it go (imho). In Silverstone yes Max owned the corner and LH didn’t ever do enough to take that away. Instead he hit Max.

            Just as a bit of an aside, but related, let’s consider that the talk around the Silverstone incident was that LH had become fed up with having to cede for Max, and was perhaps, as the Sky commentators talked about, going to be decidedly stubborn and not give as much to Max as he had had to on several occasions leading up to that weekend, including the Sprint Qualifying. If Max was also intentionally stubborn in Brazil, is that so shocking? So out of the norm?

  25. The reason this wasn’t investigated is that Max didn’t win. That’s it.

    1. It was announced before the end of the race that it was not going to be investigated. Max could have won and still there would be no investigations as it was so announced earlier.

  26. Max had the right to run Lewis wide, he had the lead going into the corner. But Lewis was able to brake later in the corner and take that lead. When Max tried to turn in, he was still carrying too much speed from the late braking and slid further out, having to straighten up to avoid losing it altogether and colliding with Lewis. This forced Lewis far out onto the run-off to avoid the collision. As a Max fan it hurts to say it, but Max did gain a lasting advantage from the mistake and should have given the place to Lewis. Especially when you take into account that it was inevitable that Lewis was going to pass and he knew it. Lewis was just that much faster. Seems like a silly risk to have taken.

    1. Michael Brooks you are clearly someone who already formed that opinion before looking at any footage closely. In actual fact, Hamilton was ahead going into the corner, and Verstappen, as he said himself in the post-race interviews, braked late into it, that was already clear. So earlier precedent says Verstappen should have taken care not to crowd him out.

      This video showed that Verstappen, in addition to not breaking earlier (even though his tyres were old and so he’d reasonable should have known he’d slide wide, as he himself said he did), also starts out by not steering a lot either (effectively, relatively to the racing line, he does thus steer into Hamilton!) until that late braking got him past a Hamilton who has to ease out of taking the corner on track to avoid a collision, at which point Verstappen, too late to make the corner, finally applies full lock.

  27. Had he stayed on the track than there was no issue. But he came in too hot and overshot the corner, with Hamilton alongside. A 5 seconds penalty would have been perfectly acceptable, this is the normal penalty for forcing another driver off the track. It probably would have had no effect on the eventual outcome too, Verstappen backed off and let Bottas get within 5 seconds, but I have no doubt he could have gone faster if he had to. This is based on the insights on this site: https://www.racefans.net/2021/11/15/2021-sao-paulo-grand-prix-interactive-data-lap-charts-times-and-tyres/

    1. @matthijs Not only did Verstappen force Hamilton off track, but he maintained an advantage by going off track.

      It was either deliberate or Verstappen isn’t as good a driver as many claim.

  28. The real answer is, steering angle/late braking are irrelevant. Max ran Lewis off the track either intentionally or accidentally. It doesn’t matter which. Lewis was going to make the corner. Max didn’t make the corner, and Lewis left the track to prevent contact. Max was definitely in the “we both crash, or you don’t pass” mode. Which is all he needs to maintain the championship lead.

    The really bad thing is the crazy contortions that Masi and the stewards are going through to justify no penalty. Before it was always leave room if a driver is past your rear wheels (along side). Then it was that rule only applies on straights, not corners and is ok to push drivers attempting a pass off track as long as you make the corner. Then it moved to the driver on the inside has to hit the apex (Silverstone this year). Now even hitting the apex isn’t required. Heck, you don’t even have to stay on the track when defending. I *think* the rule now (who really knows?) is that there is no penalty without contact. However, this only applies if “racing for a championship”. If you aren’t racing for a championship then all the usual old rules apply. There are special rules for championship contenders (or at least those named Max).

    The real problem is that now the stewards have ok’d this behavior for anyone “racing for a championship” (or at least those named Max). If you aren’t racing for a championship, it is illegal. If nothing is done about this, it will give any leader in the championship (or at least those named Max) the green light to prevent all attempts of a pass in a corner by any means necessary. There are no limits on the lead driver on what can be done to prevent it. From now on, only fully completed passes on a straight are allowed and protected by the FIA. Lets hope they don’t take that away.

    This isn’t good for racing. I don’t care who you root for.

    1. Well said @sidziner, and indeed the FIA’s way of dealing with these incidents is the problem (of which one could say the Silverstone and Monza crash, and this incident are all escalating symptoms of).

  29. Defensive driving at its finest 😂 Max should have been given a penalty for that. I just can’t understand why they didn’t have access to that footage at the time – I thought they had access to everything?

    1. Only one onboard view is transmitted at a time. The stewards have access to all 20 drivers onboards, but only the ‘current view’ which is decided by the TV director. As Hamilton was rapidly gaining on Verstappen, the TV director switched Verstappen’s onboard to the rearward facing camera.

      All the views are recorded, but have to be offloaded from the car after the race.

      1. I thought that with F1TV you could view any drivers onboard at any time? Perhaps I’m mistaken.

        1. @dot_com I thought the same. Apparently, it’s not the case as someone explained to me. Obviously they weren’t clear about that feature in their ads and perhaps they intended to offer all but they only offer one and the rest need to be downloaded.

  30. If that incident kept Hamilton from winning, F1 world would be in turmoil. However, since Hamilton kept cool and made the move stick on another lap, Verstappen can say things like “Hi judges” and “I tried everything” and “it was safer that way” etc.
    This will certainly not be the last act between the two. They only collide when Hamilton doesn’t yield. In that sense, Max has a very high opinion about him and needs to show some respect in track. I just hope they don’t let us with a bitter taste in Abu Dhabi, after a great season of rivalry, fierce competition and over-the-limit neck-to-neck racing.

  31. Can we get Albon to try to replicate this?

    1. I think it would be Russell. Maybe he’s off crash reenactment duty since he’s the race driver now though.

  32. Verstappen definitely took the wide line on purpose, there was no understeer not brake lock up. Just taking the widest line possible to push Hamilton off the track or make contact, a very unsporting way to drive imo.
    If Verstappen and Hamilton were to collide and both have a DNF it would be near impossible for Hamilton to with the WDC, Verstappen would know that very well.

    1. @johnrkh Not sure how you can claim no understeer for I think that is exactly what was happening as Max tried so so hard to defend in that corner. Yeah he overcooked it, but there is no evidence other than for those who choose to assume it that way, that Max purposely did anything other than defend and race hard. If that was very unsporting then so has LH been on numerous occasions when he has also blamed understeer.

      1. @robbie I’ve been driving for 45 years owned over 40 cars and done bit of track as well, I and I’m sure others can see Verstappen was not suffering from understeer, in other words the car responded to his input. Verstappen not only forced Hamilton off the track but drove off by approximately 4 car widths himself to stop the overtake.
        When Hamilton and Verstappen came together at Silverstone I said it was a racing indecent, but when Hamilton received the penalty I did not argue against it.
        I have mentioned before Robbie how I dislike the more aggressive form of racing that has crept into F1. It’s not like sedan racing where cars making contact results mostly in a bit of paint swapping. If Hamilton or Ricciardo or any other driver were to carry on with such an obvious form of unsportsmanlike like behaviour. They should be called out for it, and yes I know Hamilton has had his moments.
        Verstappen should have received a 5 second penalty imo because he did maintain his position by forcing Hamilton off the track.

  33. Huh, an F1 title protagonist making a move where he couldn’t possibly hit the apex. Where have we seen that before?

    1. I do believe that one was investigated.

      1. @john-h Indeed it was and one protagonist was deemed to be predominantly at fault. Only other difference was that the penalised protagonist didn’t end up 20m off track.

    2. In Schumacher’s days.

  34. The FIA should have said Max kept his position by going off the track and therefore, it’s either a 5 second penalty or hand the position to Lewis. They made the mistake and got the call wrong but it would seem unfair to punish Max for their mistake now. If he was given a 5 second penalty in the race, he’d have potentially managed the gap to Bottas and would have finished 2nd anyway.

    As I said previously, the stewarding needs to be looked at closely and completely overhauled as it doesn’t work as it is. It’s gone beyond inconsistent decisions being made – the whole structure is failing. One week they say they’re being strict on the rules, then the next they’re talking about “letting them race.” One week they take ridiculously long to make a decision on something and the next week they make an instant decision despite admitting they didn’t have the relevant footage to look at.

    I can accept individual mistakes but we’ve reached a point where no matter how obvious something looks, I have no idea what decision they’ll come up with. The decisions wouldn’t be any less consistent if they just flipped a coin for each incident.

    1. Absolutely agree. I just don’t really have much confidence in Masi, never had since he took over. Ultimately it starts with him.

    2. @petebaldwin

      The FIA should have said Max kept his position by going off the track and therefore, it’s either a 5 second penalty or hand the position to Lewis.

      Well that’s what they argued. And in that case actually no penalty is applied. We’ve seen Rosberg do that quite often. Completely miss the chicane with an overtaking driver alongside and then come out ahead. It’s ridiculous, but that’s generally been allowed.

      The problem is that Verstappen didn’t just go off track. He drove Hamilton off when he was supposed to yield since Hamilton was ahead at the braking point. So that’s a clear case of crowding another driver off track.

  35. I think it’s just a 5 second penalty. That’s it really. The problem is a wider one though setting the precedent for not investigating. Let’s see how it plays out in future races.

    1. @john-h I’m sure when another driver forces Verstappen 25m off track to avoid being overtaken, Horner will be saying “That’s fine, let them race!”

      1. @scbriml – Of course he won’t. I doubt Toto would call the decision “laughable” if Hamilton got away with it either. They’re both extremely bias in favour of their own team to a point where their opinion isn’t really even worth listening to. Whatever Max or Lewis do, their bosses will defend them publicly no matter how ridiculous it is.

        1. And I highly doubt the rest of the grid sees this now as permission to repeat what happened. This took two gladiators fighting for the Championships with few remaining races and F1 deciding to let us see them settle this in their cars. The rest of the grid is not now permitted to act like they themselves are in the top cars as the ones dualling for the titles, and like F1 has now rewritten the rule book.

          Let them race. Of all people, let Max and LH race these last few races out.

  36. Marginal but fair decision by stewards in the end. The sky commentators were wrong, he didnt open up the steering. Case closed, glad we got this closure.

    1. because Hamilton dealt with the case.

  37. Good video of all angles – https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.watch-all-the-angles-of-hamilton-and-verstappens-lap-48-battle-in-brazil.3ghMXVIaYdjY6WDID1QFte.html

    My 2 cents, Max over defended, he didn’t steer into the Apex because he had too much speed going into the corner and got a lasting advantage by pushing LH off and going off himself. We have seen similar moves given a 5 second penalty in past or at minimum a Black & White flag. Bottom line, Max was beat to the corner.

    It will be interesting what the stewards do if LH does a similar move to Max over the next 3 races.

  38. I wonder what the outcome would of been lap 1 turn 1 had Valtteri stayed on track and got hit by Max?

  39. Hamilton was completely ahead with rear wheels in full view from Verstappen’s car at the 50 boards.
    Therefore it was Hamilton’s corner as he was fully ahead on the racing line going into the corner.
    Hamilton braked for the corner at the correct point to make the corner.
    Verstappen didn’t.
    Vertsappen should have left room for Hamilton and he didn’t. He braked too late, missed the apex and forced Hamilton wide with them both having to go off track.
    Hamilton leaving the track was because he had to to avoid the inevitble accident.
    Vertsappen was in control of his car throughout (no smoking tyres) and was never going to make the corner braking that late and missing the apex.
    100% a penalty. No question about it.
    The stewards must review this and give a penalty or there will be much trouble ahead especially in the next three races.

    Imagine the last race and Bottas drives like Vesrtappen does here and Verstappen doesn’t yield like Hamilton did here and they both go off? DNF for both.
    RB would be mad naturally and the stewards would have to just say ‘we let them race’ no investigation because that is what they did at Brazil.

  40. Need the same video of the prior lap and lap after for comparison.

    1. @jimfromus I’m just guessing, but I think on the previous lap he actually made the corner

      1. @f1osaurus He didn’t run wide at T4 on the other 94 racing laps. Just this one.

        1. I believe that may have been sarcasm from F1oSaurus.

  41. Both went to a braking late contest, and I believe Max tricked Lewis into that hopeless line to buy some time and avoid being overtaken for a while, so it’s also clever racing rather than just a mistake. As he didn’t forced him to do so, neither there was some sort of contact, Wolff and his minions are once again grasping at straws. His driver always has an aura of entitlement around him, for an easy get-out-of-the-way overtake. Even though the ultimate racer to deny him, Fernando, is still not in the major fight yet, we can for sure say “not with Max”.

  42. I miss the days where these kind of incidents were just racing and gave us all a good laugh in the press conference

    1. Schumacher on Montoya for example was pretty tame compared to this one @anunaki as Schumi stayed on the black stuff.

    2. @anunaki Yeah like after that Silverstone incident when Verstappen simply turned in into Hamilton instead of evading the crash like Hamilton did in Brazil. I’m sure you found that hilarious.

  43. Masi says outcome is not a factor. At Silverstone Hamilton barely kept 2 tires on the track and there was plenty of off track space for Max. In this incident Max is way off the track. Should have been 10 seconds just like Silverstone.

  44. I think it is fairly simple. If the run-off would not have been there, this would never would have happened and we could have saved the world massive amounts of time wasted on discussing this topic. With gravel on the outside Max would not have done what he did, he would have braked earlier to make the corner and otherwise he would have ended in the gravel.

    1. With gravel there there would have a crash because Hamilton would not just throw away his race. Hamilton was ahead so he was not in much of a position to back out.

      1. If there was gravel Lewis would lose the car and crash and Max gets a joke 5-sec penalty. No thanks. Fix the stewards not the tracks.

        This wasn’t a penalty btw. Just post 2014-15 “hard racing”. Everyone is doing it more or less, it didn’t have an effect this time, let’s move on.

        1. My comment was meant as a reply @aegges66

      2. OK, it is hard to predict what actually would have happened. But seriously how often have we seen such actions whereby two cars would end up in the gravel when they are trying to outbreak each other? Surely Lewis would be more careful trying to overtake on the outside and Max would never brake so late that he would end up in the gravel, no matter what.

        Now both of them knew there would be little risk and potentially a big reward.

        Personally I think Max was overdoing it, it was hard racing, I liked it and in the end the best one won.

  45. Imagine the fuss if Bottas had done that on turn 1 lap 1.

  46. He didn’t lock up. Didn’t even steer to the apex and actually started accelerating while facing off the track. And it’s this last bit that wasn’t apparent before that I find interesting: He doesn’t get off the gas to try to make the corner. He did the opposite. That was pretty hard core.

  47. Take a look on a steering angle when he WANTS to make a corner in a quali on a pev lap and on this one….

    https://ibb.co/gZzxqMp

    1. Sure but if you’ve braked too late and are going too fast, applying more steering angle isn’t going to improve the situation. He would have just slid wide.

      1. left image is “perfect” quali lap. right-Lewis incident
        so if you carry more speed and break later than in qualification then you not gonna make corner at all…that was a point in Monza fine for Max, he was not going to make the corner and never intended to…

        1. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
          16th November 2021, 20:16

          +1

  48. I think it’s pretty clear Max ran Lewis off the track, but everyone is entitled to their opinion and this can be debated. But regardless of this, I think you can completely ignore all arguments regarding steering inputs and motives. It is clear Max went into the corner behind, didn’t make the corner when it is clear Lewis could have made the corner without an RB sliding across in his way, then Max came out of the corner ahead. This in itself is a slam dunk penalty. It’s not even a debate.

  49. I wrote yesterday that it was wrong not to investigate but not necessarily worth a penalty. From Verstappens onboard it doesn’t really look that dramatic either.
    It’s not clean racing but borderline, you just can get away with once in combination with a black and white flag.
    The problem once again is the ridiculous runoff. A strip of gravel or gras or maybe some sleeping policemen would prevent any driver from entering a corner without even the intention of making it.

    1. It is fine if it is not an incident but then all the other similar ones that did get penalised are then hard done by.

    2. @roadrunner he’s supposed to leave the space, not take 2-3 widths of the track to defend… That was a guaranteed collision had Lewis not evaded.

  50. This gives a totally different definition to leave the space… I think F1 needs a Verstappen overtake rule.

    If you’re Max Verstappen, just get out of the way of the overtaking car. Any attempt to defend will result in a drive-through penalty. The guy has no clue how to defend…

  51. The thing which the video & any telemetry would still be missing is what Max is feeling through the wheel.

    It’s easy in situations like this to say ‘Just turn more’ but that isn’t always the right thing to do because if you have gone into a corner & braked later, More on the limit, On a tighter line etc…& you are starting to run wider & can feel the front tyres starting to scrub/understeer & you then just try to crank in more lock it’s just going to make the understeer worse.

    1. @stefmeister Right? And worse, Max could have spun and collected LH if he had tried to turn more. It is likely why he called going off as he did the safer way. Perhaps LH appreciated not being collected too and being left unscathed to go on for the win.

      1. @stefmeister @robbie Max’s admittance that going off track being the “safer” option only serves to highlight even further how wreckless his approach to that corner was. Even the safer option required Lewis to go completely off track to avoid collision.

        Yes, an increased steering angle at that speed and narrow trajectory on the dirty line would have led to increased instability and by extent a chance of collision. But Max’s conscious decision to brake when he did was the reason he was in that situation in the first place. At that point he is fundamentally saying to the other driver, I’m no longer in control of whether we crash or not, so either you drive off track to avoid me or we crash.

        It’s like making an desperate but non malicious ill-timed slide tackle in football. As soon as you commit, the mistake has aleady been made. Yes you can mitigate the impact and outcome of the tackle say by pulling your feet away during the slide, but it still doesn’t excuse the fact that the slide-tackle was ill-timed in the first place.

  52. Verstappen Rule 2.0 is just a matter of time.

  53. Stewards are clearly corrupt.
    1. Max must leave space on the track for his competitor, which he didn’t, 5 second penalty.
    2. Max must stay within track limits, which he didn’t, 5 second penalty.
    Should have been a 10 second penalty just like Silverstone.

    1. @jimfromus If you think so then I’m not sure why you’re watching, but anyway,
      1. Max left space and then squeezed LH as countless times happens.
      2. Going outside of track limits is not generally an automatic 5 second penalty.
      This incident was far removed from Silverstone. Obviously, or it would have been more than just noteworthy.

      1. The only reason this one was so different to Silverstone is that they didn’t make contact. On this occasion, that was thanks to Lewis.

  54. 2008 all over again. Stewards and FIA doing everything to cheat Lewis out of a WDC.

    It is irreverent who you support but its obscene that a car deliberately forces another to avoid contact and drive off track yet receive no punishment. Yes i know the armchair ‘drama’ pundits like hard racin’ but there must be a line between that and deliberately using your car as a weapon.

    I personally think Max intended for contact because that would virtually hand him the WDC if they both scoring 0 points with 3 races left to go.

  55. Take a look at the crash it Monza this year. Max takes out Hamilton almost the same way he tried to do in Brasil. Only this time Hamilton was ready and avoided the crash. It is a penalty situation, but I do not know if a 5 sec one will make a difference anyway, so why bother.

  56. It has to a penalty of some kind, otherwise the rest of the drivers can do this whenever someone tries to pass on the outside and there’s a run off. It’s almost guaranteed that this season will be decided by a crash between the top 2.

  57. Wow. I was kinda 50/50 and thinking on the balance of things just let them race and get on with it. But this footage shows pretty clearly that Max didn’t attempt to make the corner. If that’s not forcing a rival off the track, then I don’t know what is!

  58. Lewis just needs to know not to pass Max in a corner until he has the point lead. Max has no problem with MAD. Got to get him on the straights.

  59. This is just like Silverstone, but with reversed on-track positions:
    – The driver on the racing line (VER at Silverstone, HAM in Brazil) is ahead at the braking point
    – The driver on the inside brakes late and misses the corner

    The difference is the outcome:
    – At Silverstone, VER on the outside turns in to stay on track. The driver on the inside understeers into him and they make contact
    – In Brazil, HAM is on the outside and avoids contact by steering wide

    Why should the outcome dictate the penalty? The action is what is penalized, and in this case, the action is the same, just with the names of the drivers reversed; however, the penalty is not the same. Why?

    1. geoffgroom44 (@)
      16th November 2021, 19:12

      +1

  60. I truly miss the days when this was just called great fierce racing by great drivers and everyone was just friendly to each other off track…

  61. geoffgroom44 (@)
    16th November 2021, 19:12

    It’s very fascinating that this was the only time,at any point in the race, that Max had this problem at this turn.
    For some laps after this he had Lewis breathing down his neck, but it didn’t happen again – no more ‘hard racing’
    Yet, his lap times did not fall off markedly for many more laps

    In short, between the weaving and this incident,Max did himself no favours – even many of his own fans are unhappy about this.
    The majority of fans and the public have already issued their penalty.

    It only remains for the stewards to follow the rules, all the rules
    1. did he knowingly force another driver off the track
    2.was that other driver in front going into that corner and did Max gain an advantage by forcing him off the track
    3.had the manouvre been for safety reasons and knowing the rules, would it not have been a correct action to give back the lead to the one who was in the front on the corner.
    4. Why did RB find it necessary to immediately contact the race director to discuss the ‘hard racing’ decision application
    had they themselves not been in doubt about the legality of the move (I am assuming RB had all the data available)

  62. If Max wins the World Drivers’ Championship, and he probably will, he will claim it was a well deserved win. He will claim it is proof he is the best driver in the world. Unfortunately, this sort thing, intermittent loss of control while in close proximity to his main WDC title contender, will tarnish what is an outstanding achievement. For example, when people mention Michael Schumacher, I ponder how influential were team orders and were in him achieving his results. Max doesn’t need to resort to this sort of behaviour to achieve great results.

    1. People will argue till the cows come home about Max’s defense but one thing is perfectly clear: it was irrelevant in the end. If the race had ended 11 laps before, Max would have won thanks to this move. Well, he didn’t. The move did not win him a single point (compare Silverstone where the EWE’s aggression cost Max at least 18 points). So how can this move tarnish an eventual Max’s WDC? the argument is desultory and fallacious.

      1. Wow – just wow. The end never justifies the means – and this is not Nascar with open cockpits. Silverstone was reviewed and penalties were handed out, rightly or wrongly, and Hamilton overcame those penalties. Intentionally or unintentionally, driving you and your competitor off the circuit is a punishable offense and has been penalized in the past. I doubt the FIA will give a retroactive time penalty but my belief is Max will get a **deserved** 10 spot grid penalty.

  63. Dont know what the fuss is about. Great racing. As Max and Lewis said themselves in the post race interview.

    Most drivers would have yielded to Hamilton there (maybe except for Alonso). It was amazing to see Vesrtappen not giving up.

  64. Masi’s view of the incident:

    “If you look proximity of the cars heading into the apex, where it is, nature of the corner, the fact both cars went off, neither car lost position, anything like that, that was probably the general view of it”

    Dear Masi, these are the steps that Max followed there:
    1. Brake as late as possible so that my car gets alongside Lewis again
    2. From there, turn as less as possible to gently escort (force) Lewis out
    3. When asked about it say that I braked a bit late and I did not have enough grip and I did not want to lose control of the car

    Next year, Interlagos should change the layout of that turn following the new racing line took by Max and rename it with his name.

  65. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
    16th November 2021, 20:01

    There are two points to this story –

    (1) Masi never needed the video footage because the stewards have access to every car’s telemetry, so they knew immediately how Verstappen’s steering inputs differed from previous laps.

    (2) the video shows that Verstappen didn’t apply full steering lock until after he’d pushed Hamilton off track, i.e. he made no attempt to take the corner.

    Verstappen is a cheat. The FIA knows he’s a cheat. Will they do anything about it?

  66. Espn says Mercedes have filed the appeal. So that meme of Toto pointing at the camera will get a boost . . .

    As I said I don’t think the steering matters or is dispositive. To me it’s that he accelerated off of the track to keep Hamilton from going around. You don’t accelerate into the runoff unless you are just tying to run someone off on purpose.

  67. I’ve been watching F1 since the 70s, in that time I’ve seen all manner of outrage and ridiculousness. But now it seems, after years boredom, there is finally an inter team battle, and everyone wants lawyers to jump in and stop anything remotely looking like competition.

    Everyone is crying out for ‘investigations’ and ‘penalties’ to be applied to all these non-events. It’s like calling the police in to investigate a kindergarten push by one kid to another.

    It’s racing and the stewards made a decision. If they start investigating every past race racing incident, we could end up with penalties reaching back to the 50s and retroactively stripping Fangio from a title.

    I can’t fathom how adults get outraged and want an authority figure to penalise everything they dislike. This incident had zero impact on the race. But if we have a judicial inquiry into every incident, the drivers will stop racing altogether and simply kill the ‘sport’ completely.

    But this storm on a teacup fantastic marketing tool.

    1. I agree with you, but why the stewards have selective amneasia is why there is a debate.
      If you’ve just punished drivers the previous race for even more benign incident that is similar, why then do you not bother with a more blatant incident where a driver is going for an accident because he has more to gain from it.
      If Masi and his diciples will just allow the drivers to race then all is fine but in other incidents where a driver doesn’t go off track but simply maintains his line and not alter his steering imput, they get penalties.
      It is just madness.

      1. I agree, stewards are inconsistent and can have crazy national bias and even worse deep connections with some drivers, managers, teams. It’s a corrupt system and it swings randomly about causing havoc in its wake.

        But if you take a good look at this thread above, you’ll see a hell of a lot of bias from the Hamilton & Verstappen camps. Some want a public public execution (ok I’m exaggerating) while other want a sainthood bestowed for their man. It’s the retroactive decision that kills any sporting concept. It’s great when after a race, after you’ve watched someone cross the line (even if you prefer another driver) that you can relax knowing who won. It’s awful when you hear protest this, protest that, whinge about this, moan about that.

        I’m sure people in here would call the police because their driver didn’t win this race. These sides have become rabid.

  68. Rob (@realnigelmansell)
    17th November 2021, 5:08

    Frankly I don’t think max should’ve showed up to a protest with an AR-15

  69. I have no idea what are the possible effects of Mercedes “revision” of the issue.
    But the onboard camera shows exactly what everyone perceived watching the race on TV: that Max didn´t even try to take the turn.
    I do hope they do not change the decision adopted during the race, or otherwise F1 will fall into a rabbit hole of demanding sanctions based on video footage shown days after the fact. But this move was just ridiculous. Max stepped on the brakes way too late and threw the car in the hopes that the following driver will try to avoid the contact.

  70. There are already plenty of comments but after seeing the onboard from F1’s YouTube channel (https://youtu.be/jAyM_zXRibE?t=444) my personal opinion is that Max main purpose was to block Hamilton from making the turn by taking an early apex and opening the exit. I do believe this is not illegal and it is done other times but can be countered by a late apex trajectory. However they were still very close to each other when entering the corner and it seems both carry a lot of speed so Hamilton could not counter and both gone out once committed at that speed. Hamilton only ran out due to Max’s actions, of course.

    So yeah, to me Max did it on purpose and did it very well actually, another sign of how strong of a racer he is. The debate is to check if this acceptable. It is a gray area to me, and I would prefer no penalty (under the the “let them race” principle invoked many times) but I might be biased as I want Max to be champion this year (although I am somewhat neutral in what comes to both drivers, liking some things and disliking others for both).

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