Sebastian Vettel, Aston Martin, Yas Marina, 2021

Schumacher still the greatest even if Hamilton breaks his championships record – Vettel

2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix

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No matter how many world championship title Lewis Hamilton wins, Sebastian Vettel will always consider Michael Schumacher the greatest Formula 1 driver of all time.

Hamilton could win a record eighth world championship this weekend, moving him past the record Schumacher established in 2004. The Mercedes driver has already broken Schumacher’s records for wins, poles, podiums and laps led.

But even if he beats Max Verstappen to the title this weekend, it won’t change Vettel’s view on who ranks as the all-time greatest.

“Michael is my hero. For that reason, I probably don’t want Lewis to win,” Vettel said of the title showdown.

The four-times champion said Verstappen and Hamilton “both had a strong season and they are going into the last race with the opportunity to win the championship because they both deserve it.

“In a way I’d be happy if Michael’s record still stands, but even if Lewis wins, to me Michael is still the greatest. If Lewis can win one more, two more, three more, five more championships, it doesn’t change anything for me. And I get along with Lewis.

“So as I said, it’s probably the gut says I want Max to win just to keep Michael’s record alive. But my head is quite clear in terms of may the better man win.”

Vettel won his fourth world title at the age of 26, seven years younger than Schumacher when he won his fourth championship, and was once thought the likeliest threat to his hero’s records. He has amassed 53 wins, more than any driver bar Schumacher and Hamilton.

“I think to Michael, I got very close, especially getting to know him and becoming a friend. So, yeah, I think I’m happy with where I am [in the record books]. Let’s put it this way.”

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    Dieter Rencken
    Dieter Rencken has held full FIA Formula 1 media accreditation since 2000, during which period he has reported from over 300 grands prix, plus...
    Ida Wood
    Often found in junior single-seater paddocks around Europe doing journalism and television commentary, or dabbling in teaching Photography back in the UK. Currently based...

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    86 comments on “Schumacher still the greatest even if Hamilton breaks his championships record – Vettel”

    1. This is completely understandable. Statistics aren’t everything, and there is no objective way to calculate which driver is better in different eras, different cars, with different competition on the grid, so it all comes down to a subjective opinion. Vettel grew up watching Schumacher, idolised his countryman, and then got to know him and learn from him. I would probably feel the same in his shoes.

      1. Not only that, Schumacher brought a whole new concept of training and work ethic to the sport, a way of training that is used by every driver and a work ethic that is used by every team. Like it or hate it, he fundamentally changed to sport in a way that the stats will never show and so for me, even as a Hill fan back in the day, I can’t put him in the same category as any of todays greats – Alonso, Hamilton, Max, Vettel are just a tier below him.

      2. @drmouse there have been those who have at least tried to introduce a degree of mathematical analysis into the equation, though I would agree that the idea of trying to say that a driver was the greatest of all time is often rather nonsensical given how much the sport has evolved during that period and how most people don’t try to account for that.

        Furthermore, I’ve always felt that those discussions of “who was best” often are very one dimensional, often focussing on an obsession to find “who was fastest”. Even if, which I doubt strongly, you could even find some sort of satisfactory answer to the latter, that to me misses out too many attributes of what makes a successful driver.

        In the case of Vettel, he is making it clear that it is more about what it meant to him on a personal level, and the way in which he would relate to Schumacher’s achievements is rather different in the way that it impacted him on that personal level. In that sense, Vettel’s experience is rather similar to that of most fans, in that it seems their preference for who is greatest often most strongly correlates with their formative experience of the sport and who was on top then.

    2. Michaels record ist not a record anymore, he is 7 times WDC but with less wins than lewis.

      1. There are quite a few more GPs each season now than during Schumacher years. Number of wins is not a statistic that relevant anymore (unlike championships).

        1. That’s why some prefer %age wins. Unless their driver doesn’t come out to well on that metric either.


        2. Well, Hamilton still raced less races than Schumacher, with more wins.

          How can it not be relevant?

          You would be right if the talk was about points. It’s not like Schumacher competed in the 60’s with 8 races per year. He raced half a dozen seasons with 18+ races. That’s not that big of a difference to what we had for the majority of Hamilton’s career.

        3. The number of races per season is irrelevant, it is the total number of races contested that counts.

          1. I believe that if the Mercedes phase of his career is discounted, Schumacher would have a slightly higher win percentage than Hamilton

            1. Let’s do the maths (all stats from wikipedia:)

              Schumacher total starts: 306
              Schumacher starts for his three years Mercedes: 58
              Total starts before Mercedes: 248

              Schumacher wins 91.
              Schumacher win percentage not including Mercedes: 91/248 = 36.69%
              Hamilton overall win percentage: 35.89%

              So it’s neck on neck, with Schumacher just in the lead. But of course if you discount seasons when drivers have uncompetitive drives, the stats become meaningless. Since you generally only amass a meaningful number of wins for such a percentage to be relevant if you are in a competitive drive!

            2. Schumacher also had another huge advantage, tyres that didn’t degrade and a billion testing laps

            3. dumb comment, you have to still count schumacher with mercedes , people seems forget AMG mercedes is the successor to Ross Brawn GP which a team that produce championship, its a Top team

            4. Schumacher was still over 40, a phase where you lose even 6 tenths per lap just due to age, plus several years out of the sport.

    3. Amen, Seb
      For me too, regardless of the number of championships, Michael by a considerable margin…

    4. GOAT discussion is nearly always fruitless because there are so many factors at play. Never has anyone throughout their career been in as advantageous position as Hamilton, to have racing winning-capable cars every single year, especially in his run at Mercedes. The different eras, different focuses when driving, differing competition etc. all play a huge part, and were different moves to Mercedes made, it could be enough elite-tier driver we’re referring to approaching this many world championships.

      For me it really boils down to groupings. Drivers that are the absolute elites (of their time, and seemingly overall), versus those who are exceptional, then the more ‘average’ for F1 etc. The elites for me certainly include Hamilton, Schumacher, Alonso, Senna, Prost, Clark etc. but I think it would be unfair to say one is evidently superior to the other.

      1. Yes, there should be also fangio, ascari, stewart and lauda; I don’t rate brabham and piquet, mathematical models think they’ve been overestimated by the amount of titles they won.

        1. Absolutely agree with your suggestions.

        2. Brabham was the greatest. How many winning cars did Schumacher or Hamilton build?

    5. “So as I said, it’s probably the gut says I want Max to win just to keep Michael’s record alive. But my head is quite clear in terms of may the better man win.” – A nice subtle message from SEB.

      1. Indeed, Seb is hoping he himself will snatch a long awaited next win ;-)

    6. Let me rephrase that title:

      Schumacher still the greatest for me even if Hamilton breaks his championships record – Vettel

      You’re welcome.

    7. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    8. Verstappen has already smashed Schumacher’s records of being the biggest cheat and worst sportsman ever to sit behind the wheel of an F1 car. I wonder if Vettel, who I feel has on occasions done his best to win those titles himself, is sufficiently psychophantic to think that MSC is still worthy of them. If VET and MSC were in the current position of being level in the last race I would loved to have watched to see if VET would roll over like a puppy to let MSC through, before MSC forced him off the track anyway. When Hamilton has retired Verstappen will no doubt go on to smash and bully his way to a WDC, or two and maybe more. I’m looking forward to seeing if Russell can put up as robust and wily a defence against Mad Max Verstappen as Hamilton has done.

      1. @malc1110 I’m certainly no Verstappen fan but you have to concede if the FIA actually penalised his dirty driving early enough then he wouldn’t have continue to push the limits further and further. Michael Schumacher would of course absolutely use every tool in his arsenal to win and on occasion he went over the line but that’s what you have to do to be the best is push the limits. It’s undeniable that both Schumacher and Verstappen are/were very fast talented drivers but for me they’ve tainted their own legacies.

      2. The faithful believe in such a way, and I understand and respect that, to be sure to follow the example of immaculate behavior, like “Saint” Hamilton at the wheel.
        Well, happy are those who believe in this way
        The Incarnation of Evil for the Justified Glorification of Good on Four Wheels
        Who am I to disturb such happiness

    9. Snegom Draageos
      10th December 2021, 10:38

      Only one name for me: Ayrton Senna

      1. I never really liked Senna when he was racing, mainly because I was Mansell fan.

        But the more I hear about some of his stories (such as the moving wall and possibly saving Eric Comas’s life) I start to think of him as someone simply driving at a different level, a different dimension. Or even something as simple as calling out his Karting team mateTerry Fullerton as the person the most fun her ever had a racing against.

        Maybe not the GOAT (regardless of stats), certainly flawed, but just someone quite different. I think of his generation as the last of the greats before F1 became too corporate and clinical for any kind of personality to really show through, something which first Schumacher and then Hamilton have exploited to the full.

        1. In all the interviews I have seen of drivers that raced against Senna, they have all stated that he was on a different level to everyone else. Especially when it came to focus. Damon said that he couldnt believe how Ayrton was always ‘on it’ from the lights going green rather than taking the first couple of laps to let the car find its way (so to speak) before you are on the edge. Even when it came to his driving style with the famous ‘blipping’ of the accelerator through the corners, he was different to everyone else. Even Schumi said Ayrton was the greatest driver ever and in the short period of time they raced against each other they werent exactly ‘best of friends’. Yes it is almost impossible to calculate a ‘GOAT’, but one thing you can say about Ayrton is he was most likely the ‘fastest’ F1 driver of all time (with Jim Clark a VERY close 2nd)

          1. I think clark was at least as fast as senna, different eras though.

      2. Senna was almost as disgusting and obnoxious as #44, and the harbinger of unsportsmanship into F1

    10. I must disagree with Vettel. I will acknowledge the pre 1994 Schumacher was brilliant given his lack of experience and skill. However Schumacher should have won the 1994 championship easily (without resorting to deliberately colliding with Hill) but got himself banned for several races due to ignoring a black flag (which the Schumacher documentary conveniently forgot to mention). He then was basically given a free ride at Ferrari to win as many championship as he feels like (once they got good from 1997), yet he tried to take out Villeneuve at the final race in 1997 in the dumbest way possible from the outside and got himself thrown out of the race and the championship. His championship wins after this point are largely due to teammates which weren’t allowed to compete with him coupled with a dominant car. At least with Hamilton he has had to prove himself against teammates and has been beaten or matched on occasion because he did have to compete for his championships.

      1. Well said RatSack!

      2. Yes (@come-on-kubica)
        10th December 2021, 12:56

        To be fair Hamilton has only had to beat Bottas for the majority of his chamionships who either through getting the majority of the bad luck and in latter years not being good enough couple with an utterly dominant car that Hamilton on numerous occasions (2017/2018) didn’t maximise. Hamilton’s so called clean driving went out the window when took out Verstappen at Silverstone and took out Rosberg in Spain 2016. Both of those events hurt the momentum of the respective drivers and showed that Schumacher side.

        Verstappen is a very dirty driver and has been for years mainly due to poor stewarding – though this season he was fairly clean up until the last few races which he became more calculating which is frustrating to watch as if he had he same drive for earlier in the season he would have got around the issues.

        1. I’m sorry but Spain 2016? The first lap incident? I can’t see how anyone could think of that as ‘dirty driving’. I can see how someone might lay blame more one way or the other, but to see it as a calculated deliberate move by Hamilton is insane.

          1. Yes, I’m out so you are out too.
            Nobody has ever racer dirtier and got away with so much. But its ability to shift the blame to the opponent (and the willingness of people to buy it) is uncanny
            Karma is taking way too long with #44

            1. I can respect peoples opinions about marginal incidents, but if you are saying specifically in spain 2016, Hamilton guided his almost 360 spinning car, on the grass, into Rosberg intentionally. He really might be the GOAT! It would be a marvel of skullduggery.
              He would have had literally nothing to gain by taking Rosberg out. He was like 40 points down in the championship at that point? If he could have controlled that spin and come back at Rosberg later in the race he absolutely would have. If your going to take someone out and your way behind in the champ, probably best to do it later in the race.

    11. It feels to me that Vettel’s comment has more to do with his personal connection to the drivers which is completely understandable. I don’t think he is making a qualitative judgement here which I assumed he was making when I read the article title. I mean comparisons between drivers in different eras is so weird anyway, the guy is just defending his childhood hero.

      1. Indeed, Schumacher probably was his idol in his younger years, whereas Hamilton was ‘just’ a competitor.
        OK, he also raced against Schumacher, but that was in his later years, the image still stands.
        Maybe in 20 years he’ll say Hamilton was as good as Schumacher or maybe even better, or he’ll stick to his opinion.
        Whoch in the end is what it is: an opinion.

        I find it meaningless to compare drivers from different eras. Heck, I find it difficult to compare drivers in the same era in different cars. Heck, sometimes it’s even difficult to compare drivers in the same team, because one driver gets preferential treatment or the team is just build around one driver.

      2. Absolutely. I’ve found people tend to consider the best drivers the ones they grew up with or idolised when they got into the sport.

    12. Could be said for Senna, but not for Schumacher. Senna had a lot more going for him, other than his #of titles, poles or wins.

      That’s literally all Schumacher had going for him. And now he’s been eclipsed. I think Senna blows both out of the water in terms of presence. Schumacher has (had) the statistics; when Lewis got his 92nd win and the 7th title, Michael objectively fell to 2nd in the all time list. It’s the same on % terms too; Lewis just trumps him in both absolute numbers, and in % too.

      1. Well, I would say Schumacher was a good racer. You can’t deny that.
        And he was able to build a team. Because Ferrari was nowhere when he started with them. Maybe he even helped lay the foundations for Mercedes current successes. (I don’t know, honestly)
        Do those achievements mean less because he dirty things on track a few times? He learned it from the best, Senna, who also crashed other drivers to win a title. Different times…

        1. Just like Mercedes was nowhere when Hamilton joined them (people even claimed Hamilton’s career was over with that move). Mercedes languished around for years as a P5 team in the midfield. Until Hamilton joined and they immediately went to P2 in the constructors.

      2. Hamilton had a far better car on average, there goes the %, schumacher also sacrificed % wins on his comeback, and hamilton never did what schumacher did: jump from a winning team to a team that was doing badly and bring them back to being championship contenders again, like he did with ferrari.

        1. @esploratore1 And much of that is also owed to Hamilton’s input for improving the car and making it all actually work

          Ferrari had the faster car in 2017, 2018 and 2019, but the drivers and team kept throwing it all away. They made themselves look so bad that people in hindsight forget that Ferrari had championship winning cars for those years.

      3. Jeffrey Powell
        11th December 2021, 8:32

        Greatness as a driver for me is based on two criteria outright speed and results plus driving approach to fellow competitors, It is not possible to compare great drivers of different eras on the first criteria but on the Second I would not even place Schumacher Senior , the most arrogant non sporting driver I can remember. Amazingly his Son seems to be a very pleasant chap .

    13. There is the driver, the car, the team, and don’t forget the team mate: all factors which affect number of championships. Would Lewis have gotten so many without Mercedes, would he have one more were it not for Nico? Would Schumacher have so many without Ferrari, without Rubens? People talk about Bottas being a great wingman but they must be forgetting Rubens Barrichello, the GOAT.

      1. I do am very interested in memoires in 10-20 years time about Mercedes the last 78 years.

        Did Lewis know/ expect they would be so good? I’m not saying he lucked into these rockets, he earned the right to be there since he was very good. But a driver first needs a good car to compete. If he had stayed at McLaren or went to Ferrari, somebody else probably had 7 or 8 WDC’s, or 2 or 3 Mercedes drivers had split them.

        I also find it almost unbelievable that Mercedes was able to make such monster engines for 7 years in a row. Renault was nowhere for 7 years, Ferrari had to cheat to be competitive and Honda only became competitive this year. Did Mercedes find a loophole for 7 years, or could they hide a cheat so well or was their engineering really on a totally other level? Remember that they had to tune down the engine to not make the gaps too big to avoid extra rules against them.

        1. Last 7 – 8 years, not 78 years of course.

        2. Well considering Mercedes had a 3 year head start in developing these V6 hybrid Turbo’s I would say that when Ross B and Niki spoke with Lewis when he was thinking of leaving Mclaren I would say they knew damn well how good they were going to be.

          1. Any manufacturer could have put more resources into the R&D of their V6 hybrid engines, using all information/speculation available to them. Mercedes had the brilliant idea (not sure if it could be attributed to Cosworth or Ilmor originally) to use the combustion pre-chamber design for a more complete combustion along with the split-turbo design to reduce the lag (due to shorter pipes) and overall better packaging of the power unit. I view those two items as Mercedes’ equivalent of the double diffuser. Unfortunately the token system meant that while some information might leak out about the Mercedes innovations their competitors couldn’t change their design mid-season or even between seasons to some degree. This is where Mercedes “luck” came and where any engine manufacturer who didn’t invest in R&D early really lost out. All of the engine manufacturers were privy to the same information regarding the specifications of the power units and the token system for 2014, there was no “head start” given to Mercedes. With the benefit of hindsight, Ferrari would have been wise to abandon early their 2013 campaign on the engine-front and throw all resources on the 2014 power units, perhaps then we would have been privileged to see a true battle between constructors and drivers. I’m hoping the aero formula for 2022 will give us, the fans, what this engine formula failed to do (until this season)

      2. Edie Ervin .

    14. Maybe there’s an Oliver Smith or a Daan De Jong out there who’ll be saying the same for Hamilton and Verstappen in 20-25 years…

    15. Is Hamilton retiring? Even if he doesn’t win this year, he probably has 1 more in him in the next few years.
      As for greatest, just a dumb concept in any sport as there are eras that are vastly different in every aspect of the competition.

      1. Hamilton might retire next year if 2002 cars work as intended and Mercedes cant deliver from the start 0.5 sec from the rest of the field.

    16. Schumacher will remain the greatest German driver, whatever Hamilton does.

    17. I always consider the Bottas factor.
      At his stint on Mercedes, Bottas average finish in WDC is between 2nd-3rd (5th is the worst).
      Bottas is definitely not the 2nd-3rd best driver on the grid on those years. Even in 2021, Bottas might finish as 3rd. How much of this is Mercedes and not Bottas alone.
      Hamilton is possibly the best driver we’ve saw in the last 10-15 years. But I highly doubt that the numbers which put Hamilton as goat woud be possibly without Mercedes huge dominance.
      And dont come with the “best driver get the best cars” argument. Mclaren were the best car for years. Prost took advantage of that and on the end of the season, the best he could do was to share wins with Lauda, Senna. Bottas can only win races when Hamilton is essentially out of the race.
      And now to the Prost factor, just compare Prost’s rivals and Hamilton’s rivals. I think the “worst” driver that Prost had to dispute a win with was Mansell. I can see Vettel, Alonso beating Mansell. I am not sure where Verstappen would stand compared to Mansell.

      1. And yet Hamilton has driven alongside 3 other WDC as teammates in his career so it’s not like he has shirked from driving with quality teammates. He’s certainly raced tougher teammates than Verstappen has so far who lets not forget struggled to show a clean pair of heels to both Ricciardo and Sainz (both of who Norris made look fairly average).

        1. Delusional .

      2. Bottas comfortable beat Massa in all metrics. Massa was considered a worthy option for WDC at some point, so yeah make of that what you will.

    18. Schumacher may have held records, but he was a cheat, he wasn’t even shy about it. The one you have to admire about Schumacher is he helped build Ferrari back into winning form, along with others. In a way Mercedes ce back with his help as well, he didn’t get to capitalise on any of it though.

      I don’t even think a Schumacher / Hamilton comparison is even fair. Hamilton has his shifty moments, but he isn’t an outright cheat. He is whiney, but so are all of the drivers, they are also selfish ego maniacs, but not all of them are cheats.

      I think when this discussion is being had, Hamilton should easily take the victory against someone who had to sit out races, disqualified and excluded from a season because of blatant and repetitive cheating. The conversation shouldn’t include Schumacher at all.

      1. dumb comment.

      2. @jasonj To be fair, Todt, Brawn, Rory Byrne and the unending help from Mosley and the FIA/FOM helped more than Schumacher there. But sure, the feedback from the almost unlimited testing provided by the extra FOM bonus would have helped too.

        1. @f1osaurus Absolutely, it was a team effort, and the political will to get Ferrari back on top is undeniable, but that team was a mess until all the top dogs arrived. It’s why I give some admiration, not credit to Michael. Would they have managed it without Schumacher? Possibly, but having confidence in the driving talent removes all the shenanigans and second guessing.

    19. If you take away wins or titles without dominant cars, schumacher still goes on to take 1994, 1995, 2000, 2003; hamilton 2008, 2017, 2018, in 2017 mercedes had a considerable advantage, but maybe not as much as ferrari had in 2001, regardless hamilton would lose far more wins than schumacher would when you don’t include dominant seasons, which is what gave hamilton such numbers.

      Was hamilton considered one of the best of all times when 2014 began, before he got a dominant car? That’s not what I remember.

      So in general schumacher had more competition when it comes to the opponents’ cars and hamilton had more competition from his team mates, the car is however 85% of the performance nowadays.

      1. So many things different between then and now.
        Look for example at how many possibilities rookies have to learn how to drive a F1 car.
        A few possibilities at the start of the season when temperatures are very different and on only a few tracks.
        And then each weekend max 3 practice sessions, qualifications and the race itself.
        I think 20 years ago much more practice was allowed.

        If you have a very good car that is fast without having to go completely to the edge, no problem.
        If you have a car that is more tricky to drive (like people say the Red Bull is this year), this is of course much more difficult, especially for rookies.

      2. @esploratore1 Well people at some point actually thought Vettel was great, but we now know that that was solely down to the car. But yes Hamilton was voted best driver several times, even when Vettel was raking in the free championships.

    20. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
      10th December 2021, 15:51

      If Lewis can win one more, two more, three more, five more championships, it doesn’t change anything for me.

      Thus speaks a fan, and I like it. MS certainly is one of the greatest and it’s also obvious that he made the greatest impression on Seb as an F1 fan. So why wouldn’t Seb see him as the greatest of all time for all time?

      On the other side of the coin I’ve read reports that Alonso tried to set the fastest lap in Jeddah by pitting late. It wouldn’t have earned him any points, but it would have denied Hamilton a point. Maybe there’s a simple explanation for that, but if he’s trying to influence the outcome of the championship that suggests he’s still very bitter. I much prefer the approach Vettel takes.

      1. Wow is that true? He certainly does seem to have been trying to play down Lewis’ talent recently, classic Alonso mind games perhaps and trying to influence Lewis’ perception from fans. And remember his drive in Hungary.

        1. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
          10th December 2021, 18:47

          @williamstuart, well he pitted on lap 46, the nearest stop to him was Raikkonen on lap 26, so it seems quite plausible.

      2. @slightlycrusty That battle at McLaren was intense between Alonso and Hamilton, once you have those feelings they don’t just go away. Alonso will always hold that grudge, while he is driving, he was willing to rip apart a whole team because of it. We only witnessed the publics watered down PR spin, imagine inside each of their inner circles! I wouldn’t say it is hatred, but it is seething resent at least.

        1. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
          11th December 2021, 8:28

          It would seem so @jasonj, however I note that Senna and Prost patched up relations after Prost retired. It’s a shame if true, notwithstanding the shenanigans at Hungary, their behaviour towards each other on track had always been very sporting.

          1. @slightlycrusty We can only hope that once they retire they can make peace and let go of the past. I’m not sure with these personalities to be honest. Alonso left the grid and came back with more determination to spoil Hamilton’s party than he ever had before, publicly anyway.

            I don’t follow closely, but I don’t think Hamilton has let go of his animosity towards Rosberg, and he is out of the game for good. Plus, those guys came up together and would surely have more shared experiences racing together for a decade before either hit F2. But it takes 2, so both need to find that peace.

    21. I see some good points beeing made, and I also see some delusional people.
      But the one thing that nobody mentioned is Reliability and how much it has evolved in the last 20-30 years. That and the number of races each season easily explain Hamilton’s bloated stats. And starting his carreer with the best car from day1.
      But in the end it comes down to one thing for me: Hamilton LOST a championship to his teammate!! Tell me, how high to you rate Rosberg? And he beat Hamilton. Took a title from him. And he isn’t the only teammate that beat him. How high do you rate Button?
      Would the “GOAT” be beaten by 2 different teammates? I dont think so.
      He might not even be top3 of the last 20 years, let alone “greatest ever” :)))

      1. Jay (@slightlycrusty)
        10th December 2021, 18:49

        No-one who actually watched Hamilton versus Button would conclude that Button was the better of the two.

        1. Yeah, Button wasn’t better. And I didnt imply it. Is just that over 3 years, Button scored more points than him.
          But Rosberg beat him to a title. In the same car. Do you think Schumacher would’ve been beaten by a teammate to a title? Not even Alonso or Vettel would have been.
          Hamilton went in to a top team as a rookie, left when it got bad, went in the next best (monster) team. He didnt build anything.
          If Ham wasn’t in that car, then his teammate wouldve won all those titles for Mercedes. One of them actually did.

    22. This “greatest” driver thing is ridiculous…all the names brought up when discussing “greatest” of all time…all legit. On any given day at a track any of them could be the quickest around the circuit for one lap, or a race distance. So much more depends on the car, the team, the mechanics, engineers…it’s not as if the drivers do it alone, or we could ever figure out in a perfect bubble with precisely identical equipment, precisely identical conditions, drivers at their peak and in the best form of their careers….forget it. Doesn’t exist nor will it ever. I simply appreciate the skill when I see it, and don’t feel a need to compare the generations.

      1. It was meant to be a reply to (@f1osaurus, 10th December 2021, 15:48)

        1. Sorry for wrong reply 😀

    23. I remember simpler times when anyone claiming Ham as a GOAT, would be met with the retort ‘the stats don’t lie’. Now it seems the stats don’t matter at all. In fact it seems that you don’t even need to win one WDC before you can be the GOAT.
      And its remarkable how often the driver who fits your criteria for the GOAT just happens to be the driver you have supported.

    24. I never was particularly fond of Schuey, but as a racer he makes my top 10.
      I do have soft spots for the Kimster and the Fredster but have been nobody’s fan since Alain Prost retired
      #44 is way below my top hundred, except as a trickster, excelling as the best ever

    25. I never was particularly fond of Schuey, but as a racer he makes my top 10.
      I do have soft spots for the Kimster and the Fredster but have been nobody’s fan since Alain Prost retired
      #44 is way below my top hundred, except as a fraudster, excelling as the best ever

    26. All the rich teams tested a lot in the 00s, it was not just Ferrari that was doing it. Nobody also prevented other teams having their own race track.
      And Ferrari being almost alone on Bridgestone tyres it was not such an advantage for them if you compare it to the other teams (Mclaren, Williams, Renault…) on Michelin tyres who could get much more data (because of the bigger mileage) to develope better tyres…. Its not so black and white as you try to present.
      For me F1 metrics did a good work with ranking the F1 drivers, there you can find Michael and Lewis in top 7. Even Patrick O’Brian’s drivers ranking in different Tiers (Tier 1 being Schumacher, Hamilton, Alonso, Stewart, Senna, Prost, Clark, G. Villeneuve…) is really interesting. But statistics dont tell the whole story, nobody can be competitive in motosport without a good machinery. In F1a good car is probably 90-95% the reason for wins and titles.

      Lewis staying in Mclaren after 2012 would not have won some many titles but I think he would still be considered one of the best of the last two decades just as Alonso is (even though not winning a title since 2006).

      1. It was meant to be a reply to (@f1osaurus, 10th December 2021, 15:48)

    27. No look Seb you have to do the math.
      Its very simple Micheal has 7 en if Lewis takes the 8 this Sunday than Lewis is 1 ahead and is the GOAT.

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