Red Bull’s rivals caused ‘abuse’ of team with ‘appalling’ claims of cheating – Horner

2022 United States Grand Prix

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Red Bull team principal Christian Horner says he is “appalled” by the comments rivals have made over his team’s cost cap breach.

The FIA announced last week the team had been found to have exceeded the spending limit last year. The two parties are in discussions over whether Red Bull will accept the charge and a penalty of the FIA’s choosing, or whether the matter will go before an adjudication panel.

In the meantime rival teams have called for Red Bull to face a stiff penalty which will ensure they do not gain an advantage by over-spending and discourage others from breaching the limit in the future. McLaren Racing CEO Zak Brown wrote to the FIA last week urging them to take a strong stance against any team which over-spent.

Horner said he had not been sent a copy of the letter but had seen it and is extremely unimpressed with Brown’s lobbying of the FIA.

“Zak’s letter wasn’t copied to us, so obviously we’ve had sight of that, [but] it’s tremendously disappointing for a fellow competitor to be accusing you of cheating,” said Horner in today’s FIA press conference. “To accuse you of fraudulent activity is shocking.

“It’s absolutely shocking that another competitor without the facts, without any knowledge of the details, can be making that kind of accusation.”

The first details of Red Bull’s cost cap breach were reported ahead of the Singapore Grand Prix. Horner said the innuendo around the team’s compliance with the rules has even led to the children of his staff being bullied.

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“We’ve been on trial because of public accusations since Singapore, the rhetoric of ‘cheat’, the rhetoric that we’ve had this enormous benefit. The numbers have been put out in the media are miles out of reality.

“The damage that does to the brand, to our partners, to our drivers, to our workforce in an age where mental health is is prevalent, we’re seeing significant issues now within our workforce. We’re getting kids that are being bullied in playgrounds, our employees’ children – that is not right – through fictitious allegations from other teams.

“You cannot go around just making that kind of allegation without any facts or substance. So we absolutely are appalled at the behaviour of some of our competitors.”

Brown, who appeared alongside Horner in the same conference, said he did not refer to any team by name in his letter.

“My letter set out that I think if someone, a team, spends more than the cap, they’re going to get an advantage,” said the McLaren Racing boss. “The cap as a rule is no different than the technical rules in the sport.

“We’re not taking a view whether they did or didn’t [over-spend]. My letter [said] if someone has, then here are the things that we think should be addressed. No different than if a ride height is incorrect or a flexi wing or whatever the case may be.

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“I didn’t mention any teams. It was a general response now that we are into the cost cap era, if someone breaches that, here’s what we think some of the ramifications are.”

The FIA’s statement on Red Bull described their excess spending as ‘Minor’ which under the financial regulations means up to 5% of the £145 million limit, which could be anything up to $7.25m. Brown admitted he has “no idea what the number is, I know none of the detail.”

“If we had the money to spend, that would put us in a better light and performance,” he continued. “More people, more upgrades, whatever the case may be. So we feel it’s a performance benefit if someone has spent more than the allocated cost cap, that is up to the FIA to determine whether they have or haven’t.”

Brown stressed McLaren “have a lot of trust in the FIA” to handle the situation correctly. “All we were doing was volunteering our opinion for them to take into consideration.

“I think it has been a transparent process so far. [Compliance] certificates were going to be issued, then it was delayed, but they communicated it was going to be delayed. They communicated it was received.

“I’ve got a lot of confidence that it will be transparent in the end,” he added. “So I think we need to let the process play out and only then can you really take a view on what you think of the process. But I think so far it’s gone according to how they laid out what the process will be.”

Horner later claimed Brown has “a very convenient memory of the letter that he wrote accusing us of cheating and being fraudulent.”

“It’s just not right. It’s just not right and this has to stop,” he added, saying his team had been “tried and subjected to three weeks of effective abuse.”

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2022 United States Grand Prix

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Keith Collantine
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63 comments on “Red Bull’s rivals caused ‘abuse’ of team with ‘appalling’ claims of cheating – Horner”

  1. Everyone’s become an accountant in F1 these past few weeks.

    If this continues, the whole paddock will be deserted by the start of next season.

    1. Ham lost 20 positions in grid for a mm faulty part. Where they would change the same part 3 4 weeks in a row before the race, and they stirred it up big and get ham dsq over this.

      Nice one Horner, nice one. A few hundred or a penny/cent, does it matter how big is a cheat is? So when it s others send fbi and cia to investigate, when it is them, it is abuse. Wow hypocrisy at its best

    2. @proesterchen
      You don’t have to be an accountant to comment on the RBR’s cost cap breach. The professional accountants and lawyers working in the companies auditing RBR and the rest of the teams have done their job and given their report.

      1. You are all very judgemental. Very easy to respond from the couch. This is the first year of the cap. Obviously the rules aren’t as clear as they should be. But the rule that is clear is that you can go 5% over which’s seen as minor breach. Minor breaches cannot have big punishments. So is that a good rule? I don’t think so, it is ridiculous, but it is the rule today so any other team could have done this also. So FIA stick to your own rules, punish them mildly and change the 5% rule.

  2. Horner really knows how to play the game; a clever political animal. What he spouts looks ridiculous to some one us but it still works. So hats off to him, I suppose.

    No, I don’t know the figure. I’m just commenting in general, on how he loves to cry foul, pretending to be dismayed, offended, etc. That’s one way to possibly get a more lenient sentence. He’s a master at it. And he knows that the next day all is forgotten and there is a new subject to discuss. It’s almost Trumpism. And, of course, he’s not the only team principal in the paddock that’s good at it.

    1. Horner really knows how to play the game; a clever political animal.

      Does he, really? He usually fails to get his way. More often than not his hyperbolic claims and bluster ends up looking silly as he’s outmaneuvered by the much cleverer, subtle and crucially effective efforts of Wolff and Mercedes.

      1. Hey, he(?) got qualifying engine modes banned in the middle of a season for no reason whatsoever except that Honda didn’t have one… definitely worth his salary.

      2. I agree with you. Wolff is the absolute beast. Though Horner isn’t that far behind. He’s lobbying and whining technique while pathetic is still effective. As JustSomeone mentioned he got the engine modes banned for no reason… Same goes for the engine freeze…

        1. Wolff was screaming about RBs overspent a week or 2 before it was out in the open (🤔…) and took Binotto and Brown with him. They can’t even wait till this whole matter is clear and out in the open. If Horner is telling the truth that it is about a relativly “small” figure and it is within the 5% than they, according to the rules, are entitled to do that. Yes they will get a punishment for that minor breach, but rules are rules. That’s not RBs fault. This is getting way too big. But Toto must be laughing his pants off. Everybody is already convinced what a big cheats RB are. Toto seriously, this is not the way to do this, very unsportive. FIA and only FIA should handle this.

    2. You probably forgot which team started the witch-hunt on redbull? Toto and his Goaty puppet managed to polarized the worldwide fanbase with their framing ‘no, I never look at the past….’ But always referring in every interview at AD 2021. When ‘fans’ at COTA shout ‘cheaters’ when Perez and Verstappen are on the podium, you know the poison of Toto has worked….. very funny that the Lewis fans always claim RB as toxic.

      1. After an article claiming that a team (members) got abuse after called cheaters going on to comment with nonsense such as ‘goaty puppet’ you show why some call Red Bull and it’s fans toxic @itsme

        1. @bosyber seems that particular poster is one who was originally banned for harassing and threatening other posters but, as you can see, they’re rather gloatingly boasting about how this site hasn’t bothered doing anything to stop them coming back and engaging in the same sort of toxic abuse.

          1. Banned, when? Are you making up a stories now to frame people who’s opinion you don’t like? And for what,… things you don’t like to hear? It seems that on this website it’s alright to bash on everything doing with RB. Horner said a few things more during this interview. For instance that their pre-financials has been sent to the FIA earlier in 2021. The FIA never gave a reaction on that.

          2. So, it’s just purely coincidental that your highly abusive style of writing and pattern of speech just so happens to be a very close match to an individual who was banned for being an abusive troll?

        2. @bosyber I wonder how you call it when Toto accused AT of faul play and the god blessed lewis fans started to accuse Hanna Smidt (RB). Ever heard of double standards?

          1. Given the history of how AT definitely seemed to have been willing/forced to help out Red Bull in their Vettel days, the accusation isn’t odd (though I don’t know of what particular situation you are talking), as it just to be with sauber and Ferrari for a long time too. I don’t like anyone going after individual team members with accusations @itsme, though it’s a bit different for the team leaders when they say self-serving stuff.

  3. Mr Horner, it is simple.

    Just explain to all where the money was spent and be open and honest for a change. The more you mumble and stumble, the deeper Red Bull sinks into the mire and Red bull’s reputation (and by extenstion Max Verstappen’s) goes down the plug hole.

    So just front up and tell the world where the extra $7M was spent.

    It is all so simple.

    1. I know reading might be hard for you, but let me try and put it to you again in an attempt to get you to see reality.

      There.Has.Not.Been.An.Overspend.Of.7.Million.Dollars.

      Stop drinking the Mercedes koolaid. So far there have only been leaks that imply an overspend of a few million, of which most can be argued in favor of Red Bull (tax returns). Which would lead to maybe, MAYBE an arguable +/- 1 million dollars. Which is miles of your claimed 7.

      1. So why does Mr Horner not simply come out and state your insider knowledge as being the gospel truth?

        Red Bull have admitted to a cost cap breach so that is a fact. So clarify what it is and get back to business.

        Without knowing what the breach was, it leads to all claims (including yours) being nothing more than gossip.

        There.Has.Been.An.Overspend. Why else would they be investigated?

      2. There.Has.Not.Been.An.Overspend.Of.7.Million.Dollars.

        All the FIA has said is that Red Bull’s confirmed breach of the Cost Cap falls into the ‘Minor’ category, which can indeed by up to 5%, or 7 million USD. Now, it’d be awfully coincidental if it is indeed exactly 7 million USD, but as of now there is equal proof for everything from 1 to 7,000,000. That is, none.

      3. @duuxdeluxe since you are certain it’s not 7 million, do you want to give us all the figure? Otherwise your just as clueless as the rest of us and have no need to insult someone.

      4. The only truth we have at the moment is that the FIA have determined that RBR breached the budget cap. Anything else is just speculation, telling someone to “Stop drinking the Mercedes koolaid” is no better than you suggesting “most can be argued in favor of Red Bull (tax returns)”. On the basis of the facts we do have; RBR had an unfair advantage.

    2. Explaining the sum means you need to show all individual bills. If you want that, I want to see those of the other teams as well. I’m fairly sure there are gray areas and loopholes that every team has exploited, so if you want to know where RB went overboard compared to the other teams, you’ll need the books of the others too…
      Maybe RB was too naive and did report actual numbers, believing they were not included in the CC, where other teams were smarter and entered a fictitious amount. You know the FIA didn’t (and can’t) investigate anything other than the numbers provided by the teams? What if Mercedes books the promotional materials partially on the car-manufacturer, and Redbull doesn’t? What if an Italian team gets the electric bill halved compared to British teams? Explaining where the extra money is spent, is impossible if you don’t agree on the base line.

      But the other teams were OK’d… is not a valid aggravating circumstance (nor a defense for RB)

      I can see a few things happening:
      RB gets a slap on the wrist and agrees to shut their mouths, or they get punished for real, and RB goes aggressive too by throwing the communication to the streets. Neither are good for the F.I.A. nor RB.
      Or RB doesn’t agree and goes the long way, and fight this in front of the referees, and this gets dragged for another few months, possibly with similar end results.
      Or the FIA revises their stance, and signs off on the RB-books, which opens a new can of worms for defamation by third parties.

      Just as nasty: Where is the leak inside the F.I.A? What other things are leaking?
      BTW is the cost of the accountants and lawyers included in the cost cap?

      What if the F.I.A. punishes, and RB decides not to show up for the rest of the races? They might be going over the spending limit for 2022, and by staying home save enough to get below the CC. Since they’ve won what they wanted to win (at least after this weekend, because I don’t believe Fer is going to gain more than 18 pts over RB this weekend)
      Say Ferrari and Meredes decide to do the same for the last race too, for similar reasons, is this what the FIA wants?

      1. George.be, Red Bull isn’t going to skip races – they’d void their contract with Liberty Media by doing so, would void their entry rights with the FIA and would also likely void a number of their contracts with their sponsors.

        1. Might be, but showing up with two cars and a few mechanics and two reserve drivers might be within the rules AND a lot cheaper… You know what I mean, don’t break the rules, but put the FIA and Liberty in a difficult spot…

  4. The problem is, the more this situation is shrouded in secrecy, the more folks will speculate. I’m not sure that the FIA and the teams do themselves any favours. Doing ‘behind closed door’ deals such as this and the Ferrari fuel flow meter doesn’t demonstrate transparent governance.

    1. You are correct. This whole thing is so weird and for me is only making me view F1 negatively. I’ve never been so close to withdrawing my financial support ($90 per year for f1tv)

    2. Without the numbers being publicly available, you have a bunch of Internet accountants making stuff up to support their preconceived viewpoints.

      With the numbers being publicly available, you’d still have a bunch of Internet accountants making stuff up to support their preconceived viewpoints.

      The “problem” is not the public availability (or lack thereof) of the underlying numbers.

  5. It’s shocking when you accuse someone of attempted murder for a racing incident partly caused by your own drivers stubbornness and thus help unleash a torrent of racist abuse and the same accusation from fans that still lingers a year and a half later.

    1. How ironic, seeing as Verstappen has been getting nothing but that abuse from British ‘fans’ for years now. Mind you, he didn’t actually try to murder anyone. Whereas Hamilton did.

      1. And there we go. Verstappen, especially last season, had a “get out of my way or we crash” mentality. He had every chance to drop back and take himself out of the risk zone, but he kept it there. Screw the guy. Brake tested Hamilton, pushed him off numerous times. No respect from me.

        1. Hey David Hunter….what are your thoughts on Aryton Senna?

          1. so when Verstappen drives recklessly he’s Aryton Senna, but when Hamilton ruthlessly gives him a taste of his own medicine to warn him off, he’s a potential murderer?
            priceless narrative…

            Senna’s driving genius by the way was only concurrent with – not equivalent to – his abject recklessness. surprising how many F1 fans miss the difference

          2. Verstappen and Senna are very similar with their pace and driving style. It’s ironic that Senna was Lewis’ idol yet I would bet if they had to race against each other, Lewis would be calling him crazy and dangerous.

        2. @davidhunter13 yes, you can make a twist from every situation if it suits you. On this website ‘fans’ like you always like to mention that the stewards also partly blamed Verstappen for the silverstone crash. You know lewis was also partly to blame for the monza crash? You probably also know that Lewis stayed behind Max when he decelerated massively, before the brake-test. The current witch-hunt on RB is in line with the many accusations Toto and Lewis like to make. Illegal floors, accusations about AT as junior team ….. reading the comments here most of the ‘fans’ here like these false accusations (as it are facts),… but suddenly are silent when the real story it’s that juicy. Meanwhile they forget Toto’s influence in F1 is beyond ‘normal’. That in combination with the fact that a big part of F1 international broadcasting is british is a nice basis for polarisation between fans

          1. You probably also know that Lewis stayed behind Max when he decelerated massively, before the brake-test.

            And? Was Hamilton punished for staying behind?
            I thought the stewards penalized Verstappen.

          2. @x303 I was curious about the stewards verdict, so I looked it up and it says that Verstappen was predominantly to blame for it – exactly the same wording that was used for Hamilton’s penalty at Silverstone. Make off that what you want, but I don’t think that particular similarity is reflected well in people’s opinions over here.

          3. @itsme
            Max and Charles played the same cat and mouse game before the DRS detection this year at Jeddah. The only difference I could see was that Charles wasn’t caught sleeping and played the game. To be fair to Lewis though, there was confusion at the time about giving a place back.

    2. Well, Silverstone 2021 comes in again. There is no relation between your post and what was said in the press conference.

    3. Good point. I know Horner is doing his job, but He’s not a gent.

      1. Absolutely…Horner started all this kind of over the top ramping up of vitrilol last year at Silverstone.
        You reap what you sow.
        Red Bull are toxic. Max needs to get away from them as soon as possible.

        1. They had every right to be incensed at Silverstone last year. The whole predominantly at fault decision was like salt in the wound too, especially after seeing the room Lewis gave to Charles and even admitted he didn’t want to hit him by staying a further car width towards the inside.
          Charles looked like he took a tighter line than Max too which rubbishes all the ‘he turned in on me’ nonsense that everyone laps up.

  6. Few problems.

    1) They are not “rivals’ claims”, they are the findings of the FIA Cost Cap Administration: Red Bull broke the cost cap.
    2) Horner declared days before the FIA declared otherwise that Red Bull had not breached the cost cap. His credibility is not what he thinks it is.
    3) Horner has no problem accusing others of cheating, even merely as a distraction when his own team was caught red handed and disqualified (Australia 2014).
    4) Horner has no problem claiming that Hamilton faked his physical discomfort due to porpoising; “without any facts or substance” as he might say.

    One could go on.

    Bottom line: Horner’s energy might be better used preparing his teams’ case for the Cost Cap Adjudication Panel.

    1. Came to comment but you’ve pretty much covered what I wanted to stay.

      The FIA have already said they breached the cap. This denial was valid before it was announced but since then it seems rather odd.

      The other teams suggesting they had breached were actually correct.

    2. 1) Of which the competitors were aware before the accused. Maybe the said competitors held the pen and paper that needed signed by the C.C.A. BTW: You don’t want to feed the people that ran afoul the tax authorities, while believing they were OK.
      2) What do you expect? That Horner says “Yes, we broke the rules, and we’re proud of it”?
      3) Australia 2014? Fuel flow meter issues with new regulations and flow meters that have been updated twice that year to get more accurate results? The discrepancy between the calculations of the ECU and the flow-meters caught them out, and they were punished. Meanwhile the reported cheating of others went away with “Don’t do it again” and having a car with too much drag for the reduced power output…
      4) Hamilton not being able to get out of the car, but still being OK to race the week after? Or is it Mercedes choosing for a setup that is harmful to their drivers and trying to get the rules changed. Lewis was the only one that nearly needed assistance, and now his issues have magically disappeared. His condition was a bit soccer-injured if you ask me :)

      1. George.be, with regards to Australia 2014, even Red Bull had to subsequently admit that the data from their fuel injection system also showed that they were exceeding the fuel flow limits.

        That said, Red Bull were caught cheating during the 2014 season for a different reason – they were disqualified from qualifying from the 2014 Abu Dhabi GP for having an illegal mechanism that was designed to evade the FIA’s tests for the front wing deflection limits.

      2. There were indeed some issues with the fuel flow meters in 2014, but crucially for this context Horner came out and claimed that everyone else was also breaking the rules. No evidence was ever presented all for this attack on all other team’s integrity and sportsmanship. Red Bull’s subsequent appeal was also comprehensively rejected by the FIA, as it was badly argued, and as Anon notes, even Red Bull’s own cooked (i.e. digitally simulated) data showed they were breaking the rules: https://www.racefans.net/2014/04/18/red-bulls-measurements-showed-ricciardos-car-illegal-fia/

        Whether or not Hamilton was putting on a show, Horner couldn’t back up his story yet said it anyway. Now that the shoe is on the other foot, he’s moaning. That’s never a good look. Eight other team bosses looked at Hamilton, kept their thoughts to themselves and moved on. Horner was the only one who felt the need to make a scene out of it and question Hamilton’s actions and motives. As for the issue itself; and all we can do is hope the FIA continues to take a critical look at porpoising and that they separate the theatrics from the serious effects.

  7. Masterclass in avoiding the issue, smokescreening, gaslighting, victim blaming, squirming, wriggling, reeling, writhing, and fainting in coils. I propose him for an Oscar! Because if you overspend in a cost capped sport, you are cheating. And if cheats prosper, that kills the sport. So go away, and be an actor, or something, anything, except a team principal in F1.

    1. But Zak has Oscar, and that’s all agreed…isn’t it?

    2. Well, Toto saying the rules must be changed because of the driver-safety was pretty much an oscar. …. Well,.. and for the rest about the smokescreen, victimblaming….we all know who’s best at that

      1. Looks like you are pretty good at that yourself mate.

  8. I Recon that Somewhere Over this weekend Hornet expects an apologie from all the paddock, or the world..
    RBR exceded the cap, by 1€ or 1K or 1M the cap was exceded and that goes against the rules.

  9. Brown has confidential letter of FIA president. Toto had confidential FIA cost cap report. In 2007, when member of a team are in possession of such documents, the team strips off from it’s constructor points.

    1. OK so your argument @ruliemaulana is that when a team is found to have cheated, by breaking the rules, they should be punished by having points stripped. That makes sense to me, glad we can agree.
      My goodness, here is actual, official evidence that Red Handed – sorry I meant Red Bull – have overspent by some amount. Sadly, that constitutes a rules breach. So, by your ‘logic’, they should have points deducted. Oh dear, what a pity, never mind.
      I unfortunately am having trouble finding any actual evidence whatsoever that Mercedes have obtained a confidential document. That has not been reported anywhere, merely rumoured. The paddock rumours (of RB overspending) a few weeks ago have turned out to have some substance, but no document leak to anyone seems to have occurred. Maybe if and when facts come to light, and if wrongdoing is found to have occurred, then points deductions might also be appropriate, if so I will not argue, as that is cheating, and cheating must be punished, no matter who does it.
      As to any other events, they are not relevant to this discussion about cost cap breaches.

      1. @biker56 Yes. That’s simple. Any team that found guilty of sportsmanship should be strips off from it’s constructor points.

        Either Red Bull if they were found guilty, Ferrari with fuel, Mercedes with secret tyre testing. All of them.

  10. A cheat being upset at being called a cheat? Who would have thought it?

    Christian Horner has to have the most selective memory in the paddock. This is a man who has made a career of flinging accusations around the paddock.

    Just last year, after the Qatar GP, Christian Horner claimed that Mercedes are “cheating” because they used a rear wing that gave them an unfair advantage.

    If hypocrisy was a sport, Red Bull and Horner would win it hands down. He deserves an Oscar for keep a straight face whilst spewing out this diatribe.

    1. @kbdavies Once upon a time, years ago, I was impressed by CH and the way he handled himself, but more recently his antics, especially this year, have disgusted me. Quite seriously, some of the team’s fans are becoming very like cult members. One of the comments above directly accuses a rival driver of attempted murder. That type of behaviour is extremely worrying.
      RB fans at races have also shown some horrible behaviour to rival fans, and dangerous incidents have happened this year.
      Horner talks about mental health, but only about how his own team members are affected. If it is true that team members families are being attacked, that only makes the situation worse. But if you don’t want to be accused of cheating, don’t cheat, and don’t gaslight and accuse everyone else.
      If control of the situation is not asserted firmly, and especially if this affair is glossed over, I can see all this getting out of hand. I sincerely hope not.

  11. It looks like someone made an error with the budget or RB thought they were clever and found a grey area that really didn’t exist.

    The next logical move for Horner is to gather evidence and go to the FIA jury (not sure of that instance name) to defend their case. Going in a war of words with Zak Brown is very strange and completely ineffective. Just as threatening everyone of defamation in Singapore was ineffective (and, in retrospect, factually wrong).

    1. But following CH MO is going so well and now that he has the mitigating circumstances of schoolyard bullying…

  12. As I wrote in another article on this subject, 5% is not a minor breach. If the intention of the cap is to get all teams to adhere to the cap, then 1-2% over is minor, 5% is at least medium, and anything over 5% is a major violation. It’s not 5% of 100% as 100% over would be spending twice the cap.

  13. Rules say you can’t go over.
    You went over.
    You broke the rules.
    End of.
    How the FIA is making such heavy weather of what appears to be an open and shut case (they have already determined RBR broke the rules, so that is not up for debate.
    The fans will argue till the cows come home, but if the extra expenditure was not about performance (a moot point – F1 teams spend money on stuff that gives them performance), RBR wouldn’t have spent the money.
    “Winning” 2021 with what we now know was an illegal financial advantage over other teams, to say nothing of the illegal interpretation of the rules by Masi in the final race (which handed Max a title he wasn’t going to win), and then turning around to gaslight anyone that dares suggest it was cheating to spend more than is allowed under the rules – RBR are the F1 gift that just keeps on giving!

    1. The rules say there is 5% margin, so you can go over, by 5%…

  14. On the one hand it would be great if we can put this to bed, now just like the flexifloor saga it turns out to be predominantly a propaganda campaign from Mercedes. On the other hand I feel it is time to act vs the Toto’s of this world. They are clearly bullying their way through the sport if they do not get their wins. Unethical behaviour that breaths the lack of sportsmanship we’ve come to know from them since 2021.

    without the facts, without any knowledge of the details, can be making that kind of accusation.”

    Is just one of the key elements that will need to be addressed. The other matter that needs to be resolved is how teams got information on another teams submissions. The precedent created here, being allowed to start a negative narrative and then blow this out of proportion without having to take any responsibility on what you say, will lead to more and more of this mud throwing only Netflix is waiting for.

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