Max Verstappen was given a five-second time penalty for his collision with Lewis Hamilton during the Brazilian Grand Prix. Did the stewards make the correct decision?
Incident
The pair collided after the restart on lap seven of the race. Hamilton, running second, moved to the inside to defend his position from Verstappen as they entered the Senna ‘S’. Verstappen ran deep into the corner, moving past Hamilton’s car on the outside.As they rounded the left-hander, Hamilton moved backed ahead of Verstappen. The Red Bull driver attempted to re-pass the Mercedes on the inside of turn two, where they made contact.
Hamilton was able to continue but Verstappen sustained front wing damage and had to pit for repairs.
How it happened
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What they said
In the cars
Following the collision Verstappen told his race engineer: “He left me no space.” Later, when he was told he had been given a penalty for the collision, Verstappen said: “Where did they expect me to go? He just closed the door on me.”
As Hamilton returned to turn one on the lap after the collision, he said: “That was not a racing incident.”
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After the crash
Hamilton said he “didn’t really have much of an opinion” about the collision.
Verstappen explained he “went around the outside and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space, so I just went for it. He didn’t leave me space so I knew we were going to get together.”
The incident in pictures
The official verdict
They ruled “Verstappen attempted to pass Hamilton on the outside of turn one by braking very late. He did not complete the pass in turn one and his excess speed compromised his entry into turn two, at which point he made contact with Hamilton.
“While the stewards recognise that Hamilton could possibly have given a little more room at the apex of turn two, the stewards determined that Verstappen was predominantly at fault.”
Revised guidelines regarding incidents were issued to drivers at the start of the 2022 season. The guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner state:
“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.
“When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner. The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.”
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“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.
When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tyres are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.”
For “chicanes and s-bends”, the same guidelines “would apply similarly for each corner.”
Your verdict
Was Verstappen’s penalty correct? Cast your vote below and have your say in the comments.
Was Max Verstappen's penalty for his collision with Lewis Hamilton correct, harsh or lenient?
- No opinion (0%)
- Far too lenient (10%)
- Slightly too lenient (8%)
- Correct (31%)
- Slightly too harsh (18%)
- Far too harsh (33%)
Total Voters: 279
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Steve (@duuxdeluxe)
13th November 2022, 19:24
They made him honary citizien of Brazil and gave Verstappen an undeserved penalty afterwards. That’s biased as I’ve ever seen it. Stewards are fixed on supporting a certain driver yet again.
trib4udi (@trib4udi)
13th November 2022, 19:57
I would think it should have been a penalty for Lewis too. Max didn’t lock-up, was sufficiently alongside and also abiding all tracklimits.
Throughout the race we saw other drivers giving the space in Lewis’ position.
A penalty for Max for this racing action is a disgrace.
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
your highness, what was your opinion about this incident of the exact carbon copy? did you argue ocon was too harshly and unfairly penalized which created the precedence for today’s crash for the penalty? lets hear from the all fair honest not so ironic not hypocrite max/redbul fans.. all ear?
koddamn (@gufdamm)
13th November 2022, 20:13
Why do you believe biased fans adhere to facts?
Tunde
13th November 2022, 20:16
good one there…
Russel vs Perez couple of races ago…is another good example
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:27
Exactly, why should we believe you? You’re so obviously biased it’s ridiculous.
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:18
I already told you that Max was to blame in that. I also suggested you go back and look at the records on this very website :)
Fiona
14th November 2022, 8:20
How can ypu say Max was to blame? Did you not notice Hamilton cruising along a separate lane and gaining on Max. Absolutely ridiculous. Give Hamilton a penalty as well.
grapmg
13th November 2022, 20:18
Occon was already lapped he had no right to attack the race leader. You can not compare the incidents. Today Max got a 5s penalty not sure if it’s fair but the stewards make the decission and I don’t believe in biased stewards or biased FIA or whatever bias people claim.
Tunde
13th November 2022, 20:24
Ocon was lapped but still in the race as a competitor. he can race anyone provided he has the pace. where is the rule that forbids unlapping? if there is one, then we should balance the equation by having a rule against lapping
grapmg
13th November 2022, 21:26
Well you can’t say he is fully along side.if you are a.lap behind. If you are a lap behind you can unlap but not take someone out.
Tricky (@tricky)
14th November 2022, 11:14
That was one of the most ridiculous accidents by VER, he should have just let him past and lost as little time as possible.
George.be
13th November 2022, 21:34
Are you comparing a car unlapping himself, coming from further behind than Max was to fighting for position? For real? You chose your nickname wisely :)
bosyber (@bosyber)
14th November 2022, 7:47
The rules don’t have a problem with a car unlapping itself (it is when being slower, and being lapped that they have to yield in F1), so the rules treat it as just a racing situation, which makes it a straight comparison (apart from in a drivers’ mind maybe).
Bob (@mp4-bob)
13th November 2022, 22:21
You’d be hard-pressed to find someone who didn’t think Max was in the wrong back when it happened. Also, most people defending Max for that incident are more talking about the fact that Ocon probably shouldn’t be trying to unlap himself like that.
When you unlap yourself, it’s an unwritten rule to do so in a non-aggressive and unrisky way. That move is extremely risky, hence why some people believe Ocon is at fault. Racing for position is very different, but the move of cutting across like that is still considered wrong.
ajpennypacker (@ajpennypacker)
14th November 2022, 1:13
Max was at fault on that one. It was a bad call to penalize Esteban except for the fact he was a lapped car
Tom G
14th November 2022, 11:34
That’s why Ocon was penalised… which makes it a good call. If they were both racing for position rather than to be lapped or unlapped, then it would be Verstappen’s fault for being too aggressive and leaving no space. Thus not a bad call.
Femke
14th November 2022, 10:03
The rules got revisited between that incident amd this one. No point to compare as the outcome could be different looking at it now than what was decided in the old verson of the rules
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:05
@duuxdeluxe The race stewards made Hamilton an honorary citizen of Brazil?
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:07
@trib4udi In post-race TV interviews Verstappen basically said he deliberately drove into Hamilton. Seems like the stewards got it right.
otto
14th November 2022, 9:23
At least Max admits it while Lewis is in denial (by not commenting).
Tom G
14th November 2022, 11:35
He said he went for a move and he knew Lewis would close the door. Doesn’t mean he’s not allowed to go for it and it happened as predicted. That doesn’t mean he deliberately drove into Hamilton lol. Good sherlock revision tho
Sihrtogg (@sihrtogg)
14th November 2022, 12:58
Hamilton did a proper calculated job of neutralising the biggest threat to Russell’s maiden F1 victory.
I don’t think a penalty would have been any deterrence for making the move, and rightfully so.
He was being a great team mate today, unlike a certain egocentric Red Bull driver.
Ajaxn
13th November 2022, 20:28
Max on the inside of that ‘s’ bend wasnt on the racing line, he would not have made that apex or the one to follow that. The stewards would have seen that. Max should have backed off and tried again. The trouble with Max is he doesn’t do wheel to wheel very well. With him It all or nothing.
George.be
13th November 2022, 21:41
What would happen in the next turn didn’t matter here, Lewis closed the door when he closed the door. Max was more than half a car lenght beside and was inside the apex, climbing the curbs to maximize the space. Only after the contact he went wide. It was a 50/50 situation at best, except for the Lewis fan.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:10
The Race Stewards disagree.
otto
14th November 2022, 9:25
Martin Brundle (and many other drivers) disagrees with the stewards.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:09
Exactly. In getting his nose in front of Hamilton at T1, he went way too deep (otherwise there’s no way Hamilton) could have got back in front. Verstappen then dived into a space that was always disappearing. Inevitable collision caused predominantly by Verstappen.
Tom G
14th November 2022, 11:38
Lewis wasn’t even on the racing line. There was no way in hell he was giving room
Steve Rogers (@beeflin)
14th November 2022, 2:06
Max turned his steering away from Lewis twice, but in between those two turns he opened it twice. There was no justification for such a lack of commitment to avoiding the collision. He admitted to the fault anyway when he said “I immediately felt he was not going to leave space, so I just went for it.” A sensible reaction would have been “I immediately felt he was not going to leave space, so I backed off into the runoff and waited for a chance on a later lap”.
Red Andy (@red-andy)
14th November 2022, 6:42
@beeflin Why should Verstappen be obliged to make allowances for someone else’s erratic driving? Maybe if there was a world championship at stake, the sensible thing would have been to back out. But Max doesn’t need the points, so he has no reason to let Lewis get away with closing the door.
David (@davidjwest)
14th November 2022, 18:42
See T4 last season.
Tricky (@tricky)
14th November 2022, 11:21
I am 100% sure that if the two drivers swapped positions, VER would have done exactly the same and HAM would have pulled to avoid the collision.
billyweb88
14th November 2022, 13:05
Looks to me very similar to the incident between Hamilton and Alonso at Spa, ie. Hamilton drove across the nose seemingly unaware or caring that there was a car there.
Dzr Old Man
14th November 2022, 23:29
That’s funny because when Max did to Ocon exactly what is Lewis did to him, Max was furious and Ocon got a penalty!
Was Max wrong then or is he wrong now?
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 19:31
So we are back to “Out of my way or I’ll crash into you” Verstappen. He just loses it when he sees LH, doesn’t he? No wonder the behaviour of his ‘fans’.
Patrick (@paeschli)
13th November 2022, 19:43
What happened to ‘leave a card width’ huh?
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 19:47
couple years ago, exact same location with ocon… ocon got the penalty… so whats up with the decision?
max outside someone inside, collision, inside’s fault?
max inside someone outside, collision, outside’s fault?
cant be both ways can it? or if it is max, everyone has to yield? for the first time, perfect decision. he had the same collision yesterday as well. cant be all coincidence?
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 19:50
@mysticus you can go back to that day and read my comments. I said Max was 100% at fault in that incident.
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:13
@neiana if you argued that fair-play, but did max/horner/redbul/fans think the same? max has been boiling down to this exact move/incidents and allowed to get away for far too long! karma is not a nice person…
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:19
Oh I’m a Red Bull fan… not so much Max fan, but yes. I believe very much in the sanctity of truth.
Also keep in mind one of those Maxi moves, which was banned, which is driving others off the track (as Lewis did here), was held highly by Lewis/Merc/Toto fans when Lewis was driving Nico off the track every race some years ago.
Forgetful?
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:43
are you even serious? ham used racing line rules, where as max abused it to unimaginable levels!
i thought for a second, you said you fairly judged last year, now i see you only did say to justify today? pity me, believing a petty redbul fan’s words. always something else sinister comes after
NPC
13th November 2022, 21:41
wasnt MAX – OCO crash, back wheel – font wheel???
While HAM crashed into MAX while they were paralel
Andy (@andyfromsandy)
14th November 2022, 16:37
The stewards saw it the other way round that Verstappen collided with Hamilton. Or in your words, crashed into Hamilton.
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 19:56
Max was alongside and Lewis turned into him. Multiple times throughout the race we saw that when a driver was alongside, the other driver gave them space. Lewis simply acted like Max wasn’t there.
This was absolutely an egregious penalty. As far as I am concerned, I am not a Max fan, but I am even more happy for his 2021 WDC and until a driver I like has a sufficient car for championships, I’m fine seeing him wipe the smugness off Merc, Toto & Lewis. Things like this just keep pushing me towards that feeling.
And for context, I 100% supported Lewis in his rookie season until his arrogance and childishness came through. He hasn’t changed either, much. At least he doesn’t race bait like he used to when he doesn’t win.
koddamn (@gufdamm)
13th November 2022, 20:15
Max put his hands on Ocon for what he did to Lewis today. Ocon got a penalty. Should we tell lewis to warm up?
GO AWAY.
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:25
I felt Max did wrong to Ocon and I said as much when it happened. A bigger difference, actually, is that Lewis truly drove Max off the track and drove INTO him by not giving space. In the Ocon incident, Max managed to give Ocon twice as much space to a LAPPED DRIVER.
The truth isn’t going anywhere.
Cronies
13th November 2022, 20:26
Ocon was a lap down, and tagged Max’s rear wheel….
Duncan Idaho (@didaho)
14th November 2022, 1:15
“Max was alongside and Lewis turned into him. Multiple times throughout the race we saw that when a driver was alongside, the other driver gave them space. Lewis simply acted like Max wasn’t there.”
Silverstone?
MarcusAurelius (@marcusaurelius)
13th November 2022, 21:41
@biker56 It is the other way around. Yes, it was a bold move, even a brilliant one. But Lewis could have prevented the crash but apparently chose not to.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:13
@marcusaurelius Yet in post-race TV interviews, it was Verstappen who basically said he did nothing to avoid the collision. The issue was all down to Verstappen going too deep into T1.
Andy (@andyfromsandy)
14th November 2022, 16:40
Although Lewis could have prevented it Verstappen didn’t need to initiate it which is why Verstappen was predominantly at fault according to the stewards.
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:21
Verstappen, in an interview:
A deliberate crash to stop Lewis winning the race.
Not careless, dangerous driving. This confession deserves a ban.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:15
Rumours of a new, more mature Verstappen were totally wrong it seems. Also confirmed by his petulant refusal to swap places with Perez.
grapmg
14th November 2022, 9:07
@biker56 I’m a fan of Max do you have a problem with my behaviour? I don’t understand these kind of remarks about fans its not relevant and only adds to the unnecessary polarisation.
Biker56 (@biker56)
14th November 2022, 11:08
@grapmg OK, sorry, too wide a brush there. Not all Verstappen’s fans are badly behaved, sorry. The quotes around ‘fans’ was intended to imply that I was referring to a ‘lunatic fringe’ – I could have made that clearer.
grapmg
14th November 2022, 12:25
@biker56 apologies accepted. If you put it in that context it’s more clear
Biker56 (@biker56)
14th November 2022, 13:09
e.g. just look for hyoko in this comment section.
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 19:39
The gap has gone => you back off, or there will be a collision, which will be your fault.
So he got a penalty for that. So now the Orangistas will blame anyone else, except the culprit.
Marcel
13th November 2022, 19:43
Interesting, wasn’t this the case at Silverstone in 2021?
RJ7
13th November 2022, 19:45
sjeesj wat happened to just observing what happened?
Owen Smart (@smartez)
13th November 2022, 19:45
The gap wasn’t gone though
grat
13th November 2022, 19:48
Assuming Hamilton was going to drive straight off the track, no.
Assuming Hamilton was going to actually turn right to follow the track, yes, the gap was vanishing rapidly. By Max’s own admission, the door was closed– so why did he drive straight into it?
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 19:51
There was a huge amount of space for Lewis, which we saw multiple times throughout the race where other drivers did exactly the same thing and *GASP*GAVE THE OTHER DRIVER SPACE *GASP* but oh, no, Lewis couldn’t be bothered to do that!
Tunde
13th November 2022, 20:14
in Silverstone 2021, there was a huge amount of space left of Verstappen.
back out from a disappearing space in a corner…
in Silverstone, Hamilton did try to back out but was too late…
people and recency bias or hypocrisy…
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:26
Silverstone is easily Hamilton’s fault as well. Verstappen was SIGNIFICANTLY in the lead at that point and Hamilton drifted (or pushed) out to hit him. Max did NOT turn in to hit Lewis at Silverstone.
Ajaxn
13th November 2022, 20:31
Hamilton today was Russell’s wingman. Its just a shame when Russell restarted he did so on the straight giving Verstappen, Hamilton’s slipstream which lead to the clash.
MarcusAurelius (@marcusaurelius)
13th November 2022, 21:47
@neiana Lewis has a problem with Max. Whenever they are in a fight, Lewis prefers to crash into Max rather than yield. (Silverstone, Monza and now again).
Or maybe Lewis has a problem with Red Bull, he has crashed into Red Bulls more than any other car (Albon@Interlagos, Perez@Austria to name a few)
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 19:57
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
carbon copy of the same situation. so either ocon was harsly penalized for no reason, or max has to learn something about yielding himself. ham should have come out at the end of the race to push and punch max i think, it was not fair and too lenient penalty… max alone cost ham the win today!
Ben
13th November 2022, 20:01
+1 mystic one. Max and Horner will cry about it, but he was ready to punch Ocon for doing the exact thing he did today.. such a lovely guy.
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:05
ben, ocon was given 10s penalty for this… this horner or max argue about the decision being unfair for ocon? or did they refuse to believe ocon was at fault? about punching, max actually got quite pushy/physical with ocon short of fists…
irony of karma :)
Elgsdyr
13th November 2022, 20:17
Ocon was a lap behind Verstappen in that incident, so hardly a carbon copy. There’s a massive difference between lapping and fighting for position.
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:25
Elgsdyr
i wouldnt expect any different opinion. thanx for confirming.
how about this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icesjjvN6Sc&t=201s
it seems like if people want to use the space available when forced wide unfairly… and forcing guy gets away with it, why not? is it not about let them race?
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:30
@mysticus Why constantly showing a lot of videos where you feel Max has done wrong? Are you forgetting that this very video you are providing now is nearly identical to how Lewis drove every single corner that Nico was alongside him while they were teammates? How about it? You want to shove these videos down Max fan’s why not eat some of your own pathetic nonsense?
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:45
you guys constantly have very short memory, and forget everything max does/did and cant comprehend the irony and hypocrisy of their utter rubbish comments after wards.
petebaldwin (@)
13th November 2022, 20:49
@mysticus – Not sure what your point is – are you saying Max drove fairly in the past or are you saying Lewis should have had a penalty today? If it’s “karma,” you’re suggesting someone got away with dirty driving in the past and has been paid back with the wrong decision today?
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:52
@neiana
did you also bash max last year same race for blatantly running ham off the track by like 100feet with himself 20 feet off?
did you bash max for weaving in front of ham like 100 times and not get DSQ or Black Flagged? did you fairly judged max in saudi race parking in front of lewis in the straight unashamedly trying to gain drs while loosing nothing?
did you honestly feel max deserved last year’s win with so much bs redbul pulled off with the help from RD Massi? did you advocate for fair and honest racing when max was pulling all the dirty moves under the rug and get away with it?
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:57
@petebaldwin
” If it’s “karma,” you’re suggesting someone got away with dirty driving in the past and has been paid back with the wrong decision today?”
someone got away with way too many dirty driving, and karma is like that. not just ocon decision. last year, max should have been DSQ from brasil race.
forced someone off track so blatantly
weaved on the straight more than once!
also saudi race, parked his car in front of ham to give himself unfair advantage and caused a crash. he should have been DSQ. instead, he has been gifted the most unfair dishonest decision to crown him wdc.
so tell me what is really not understood? karma is not a nice person when it happens to your fav?
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:59
@petebaldwin
FYI it should have been at least racing incident, but knowing it is max, and how he has been driving people off track left and right front or back, i would lean on max being at more fault! considering he had a collision just yesterday, slightly earlier inside the same corner/chicane!
Toto Wolff
13th November 2022, 22:03
@mysticus
Last years championship was as fair as it could be till Silverstone before Hamilton decided to take out the car in front of him, send the driver to the hospital and then celebrate like he won the WDC.
Hungarian gp too was a classic example of Verstappen losing a podium due to Mercedes drivers not braking and ramming into him
Lastly, you saw the Abu Dhabi gp right. Hamilton goes wide off track and does not have to return the position because he is Hamilton. (PS: Verstappen did that multiple times)
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:19
@biker56 If there was any lingering doubt as to who was to blame, Verstappen’s post-race interview should have cleared that up completely.
“To be honest I went around the outside and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space, so I just went for it,” he told Sky. “He didn’t leave me space so I knew we were going to get together. It cost him the race win, for me it gave me five seconds. It wouldn’t have mattered anything for my race because we were just way too slow.”
Jere (@jerejj)
13th November 2022, 19:45
Incorrect
Proesterchen (@proesterchen)
13th November 2022, 19:45
No.
grat
13th November 2022, 19:47
I don’t think the stewards considered the two parts of the S as two separate corners. Max charged into the first corner at a very high rate of speed that was going to make it difficult (not impossible) to make the second corner. It certainly wasn’t the optimal racing line for the Senna S.
Hamilton may not have left 100% of a car’s width, but there was certainly room for Verstappen to make the overtake without leaving the track, and without crashing. But I think he was going too fast to safely make the second corner without Hamilton diving out of the way.
All my personal opinion of course– look forward to seeing the steward’s rationale.
I’d also have been OK with it being a racing incident.
Cronies
13th November 2022, 19:56
Your theory makes some sense, but look when they hit – Max is right over the curve almost off the track….
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 19:59
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
Cronies look, carbon copy of the incident, with roles reversed, guess who was penalized? lets hear your mighty opinion over this incident?
slowmo (@slowmo)
13th November 2022, 20:03
How they can watch that then not say the penalty was correct.
Hmm
13th November 2022, 20:08
Ithink the key is here if the car inside is able to turn in or not. If not, then it means that is trying to get inside in an unrealistic speed and therefore causing the collision. If it is able to turn in, then of course he has to get enough space. Today Verstappen could not turn in even after the collision (reduced speed).. Absolutely right decision.
Cronies
13th November 2022, 20:11
Max actually gave Ocon more space than Ham gave him. I am not really sure what your point is. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
koddamn (@gufdamm)
13th November 2022, 20:16
The rules were applied consistently. Go cry.
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:18
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhrAgoHCoyo
it is all about let them race mentality!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
this and today’s are inch by inch carbon copy… there is no extra space given or taken! watch however many times
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:30
@gufdamm Max won 21 and 22 CRY ON
Danny (@dnny)
14th November 2022, 5:05
@gufdamm @mysticus Why so toxic all of the time.
You lot are the reason this place is less enjoyable to visit.
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2022, 10:24
@dnny
“You lot are the reason this place is less enjoyable to visit.”
You don’t visit this place that much or you are from around a small peaceful Dutch town called “Max Fans are the biggest hypocrites”. Because I don’t visit the site as much for these little Dutch town fans flaming the forums with the most hypocrisy, and has still face left to call others out.
Cronies
13th November 2022, 20:31
Watching carefully Mitchell is clear Max was further alongside then Ocon, contact occurred sooner in today’s incident. Hamilton left less room. Oco was a lap down. Subtle but important differences.
N
13th November 2022, 20:03
Exactly, same as his ridiculous shinanigans in Monza last year, just dive bombed the outside in order to -force- his way through at the 2nd part of the chicane, hoping the other car is just going to jump out of his way
w0o0dy
13th November 2022, 19:49
Apparently Hamilton can intentionally hit someone and the other driver gets the penalty. Ridiculous stewarding.
slowmo (@slowmo)
13th November 2022, 19:55
As many Red Bull fans complained about earlier this year with Perez and Russell, the car behind shouldn’t hit the car in front, they should brake. Double standards and hypocrisy ahoy. Penalty was fine and in fact I felt 10s would have been more appropriate for a completely avoidable accident.
Tunde
13th November 2022, 20:22
he ruined Hamilton’s race just like Ocon did his then. 5s was lenient. he came off lucky
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:32
hyoko
14th November 2022, 0:47
For such a mediocre and useless driver there are two things in which it really excels:
1-To deliberately crash and wreck the other driver’s car while sustaining minimal or no damage in its own car
2-To shift the blame of its atrocities to others
hyoko
14th November 2022, 1:26
And W0o0dy, sorry to ask but are you new at this? It’s the same old same old for sixteen years already.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:21
The intention part was undoubtedly down to Verstappen. He said as much in his post-race interview.
Andy (@andyfromsandy)
14th November 2022, 16:52
In the minds of the stewards it was Verstappen that collided with Hamilton
The Stewards determined that Verstappen attempted to pass Hamilton on the outside
of turn 1 by braking very late. He did not complete the pass in Turn 1 and his excess
speed compromised his entry into turn 2, at which point he made contact with
Hamilton.
drmouse (@drmouse)
17th November 2022, 7:22
From seeing multiple angles and analyses, this is how it looks to me, too.
I initially called it as Hamilton’s fault, and he definitely could/should have left a bit more room, but the incident started way earlier than that and it’s more complex.
Verstappen’s move into the first corner was ambitious at best. He braked very late and compromised himself for the second, hoping he’d already be past and would “own” the corner.
Given the speeds and positions involved, as well as experience of previous behaviour between the pair, had Lewis given more space there would still have been contact had one of them not backed off. If Lewis had left now space, either Max would have used it but continued to understeer across the track, or he’d have just run Lewis wide on the exit. Given the mentality of the two, contact was inevitable. Neither was prepared to yield against the other.
If probably have called it a racing incident myself, but I don’t think a penalty for Max was harsh, nor would I have thought a penalty for Lewis was harsh. I’d actually like to see the stewards start handing penalties to both drivers in cases where both contributed significantly…
Tommy C (@tommy-c)
13th November 2022, 19:49
I don’t really understand how that incident resulted in a penalty for Max. I’d be happy for it to be a racing incident and left at that, but if blame had to be apportioned, surely it was Lewis not leaving space at the apex which ultimately resulted in contact. Stroll showed a few laps later how to deal with a driver coming through there perfectly. It’s not as if Lewis didn’t know he was there. Max was properly in front of him only moments earlier!
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:01
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw your opinion about why ocon got penalty? or were you blaming max here if what you say was even tiny slightly correct
Nathanael Tung
14th November 2022, 2:51
If ocon was on the same lap as max, 100% max’s fault. But since ocon was a lap behind and you can only unlap yourself without interfering with the leader’s race (see sainz on Hamilton in Austria 2021), it’s ocon’s fault
sumedhvidwans (@sumedhvidwans)
13th November 2022, 19:50
‘you know how it is with Max” says Hamilton when asked about the collision..
More fodder for comments here :)
Nm
13th November 2022, 20:01
Thats the narcist we know by now
Elgsdyr
13th November 2022, 20:19
Oh, that’s just Lewis “I-don’t-play-mind-games” Hamilton.
MichaelN
13th November 2022, 22:47
Hamilton had the car to win but he was beaten by Russell in large part due to being on the back foot by falling into the same trap he did last year. He is such a great driver, but whenever he races Verstappen he gets into these silly incidents as though he has a point to prove. He could have easily ruined his one chance this year to win right there, and arguably he did.
Verstappen and Hamilton have raced cleanly and sometimes impressively all season. But whenever they’re together they seem to lose the plot a bit. Unfortunate!
glynh (@glynh)
13th November 2022, 19:53
Definitely wrong decision. If I was steward I would have said racing incident. I thought Hamilton should have left space if anything but not much in it.
koddamn (@gufdamm)
13th November 2022, 20:19
Ocon got a harsher penalty for the same thing.
petebaldwin (@)
13th November 2022, 20:51
Ocon was a lap down and took out the leader. Fair or not, you’re always going to get a harsher penalty for that.
hyoko
14th November 2022, 0:53
Not simply a wrong decision. A full-blow HIA decision. They always have a crane ready for their pet.
Macademianut (@macademianut)
13th November 2022, 19:56
VER is a “gifted” and thankless driver. See his comments when he crossed the line. He couldn’t even swap space with his teammate.
Remember when HAM returned the favor to Bottas.
Macademianut (@macademianut)
13th November 2022, 19:59
https://www.thescore.com/formula1/news/1341599
RomTrain (@romtrain)
13th November 2022, 20:07
nice example of the difference of personalities between drivers.
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
13th November 2022, 20:00
It was a little bit of an Ocon moment. I didn’t think the penalty was correct back then an I don’t think it was correct today.
A bit stubborn not to back out, but still a racing incident for what Verstappen was slightly to blame. But not really worthy a penalty, especially as he already had to change his wing and his competitor escaped unharmed. Norris mistake for example was much worse.
Tunde
13th November 2022, 20:40
I’d totally agree with you if Hamilton remained P2 after the collision.
He ruined Hamilton’s race (he had to practically fight back from 8th after the incident to P2 where he eventually finished). 5s was just about fair…
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
13th November 2022, 20:00
I would have been okay with racing incident. But to penalise Max seems bizarre. We saw goodness knows how many overtakes there this weekend and every driver left enough room for the driver on the inside of that part of the ‘S’ happily knowing they’re on the inside for the long left hander coming next. If anyone was to blame it was Lewis. He could have easily given him a cars width and still been ahead going onto the straight.
hyoko
14th November 2022, 0:55
And miss a chance to smash Max? In what universe could that happen?
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:24
@bernasaurus Verstappen basically said he deliberately crashed into Hamilton to ruin his race.
“To be honest I went around the outside and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space, so I just went for it,” he told Sky. “He didn’t leave me space so I knew we were going to get together. It cost him the race win, for me it gave me five seconds. It wouldn’t have mattered anything for my race because we were just way too slow.”
Andrey Baydin (@minilemm)
13th November 2022, 20:00
While I wathching the race it seemed pretty clear to me that it was more on Hamilton, as per “significantly alongside” rule (which seems to be interpreted differently every minute anyway). But I’m not sure if Max was making that corner with that line and speed.
S’pose gotta see someone breaking it down with a bit more data.
Ivan Vinitskyy (@ivan-vinitskyy)
14th November 2022, 9:24
@minilemm. You can tell what’s going on from video or images above. Max is significantly behind in the beginning of a braking zone. Despite being on a suboptimal racing line for both corners he decides to brake late and carry too much speed. This commits him to going deep into t1 and very wide at t2. The only time you can afford to do that is when no cars are around you. He knew there was ham and Perez close by. He knew he wasn’t going to make it. He didn’t make t2 even when he used Ham’s Mercedes to bounce off. It’s a very typical move by Max when he lost the corner. Everybody makes a point of “he is alongside” but then ignore he is only alongside because he’s out of control. He is no longer able to make the corner safely.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:24
@minilemm Or just listen to Verstappen’s post-race interview.
Pedro
13th November 2022, 20:02
I thought it was a harsh decisions. To me a racing incident just that…Hamilton was on front but left no room, Max had minimal space…
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:08
dear pedro
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
what was your opinion about this? ocon getting 10s for the carbon copy incident at the exact same location?
lets hear from all the wise max/horner/redbul fair-y-taleeee-s
Pedro
13th November 2022, 21:25
I’m far from a RBR Max or Horner fan, i remain with the same opinion…racing incident
AlanD
14th November 2022, 12:52
@Mysticus, interesting to see that video you’ve posted and the video from yesterday to compare the two. I think the significant difference between them was that Ocon was keeping his front right on the yellow liner of the inside of the corner, i.e. he was managing to follow the curve of the corner, where yesterday, Max’s front right was already coming back towards the track when they collided, i.e. there was no way Max was making that corner at that speed, and even if Lewis had seen him coming in time and left a car width, I think Max would still have run into him, just because of the angle Max’s car was pointing. Personally I think whether Ocon is a lap down or not is irrelevant. If he wasn’t being blue flagged, he is still entitled to race. So anyway, bottom line is that if you’d shown me those two incidents and said one was a 5s penalty, the other a 10s, I’d have guess Ocon was the one getting 5s, and Max the one getting 10s. It is a shame the penalty system isn’t clearer, more consistent, and the stewards more willing to explain how they judge the scale of an offence.
Ben
13th November 2022, 20:03
I’m at the track and RedBull have just sent Albon out to reconstruct it. I look forward to hearing their report.
G
13th November 2022, 20:04
That was a confusing decision yet again.
George has got away with a couple of blunders this year and now Lewis has too with Spa and now Interlagos. At least he owned up to the one in Spa when he did the same thing to Alonso.
MXMXD (@mxmxd)
13th November 2022, 20:06
It probably should’ve been declared a racing incident.
Sensord4notbeingafanboi (@peartree)
13th November 2022, 20:07
Fia embarrassing themselves again. “It is called motor racing” Masi I have never thought I’d be saying it, please come back. It was bad before it is wwe now.
Patrick (@anunaki)
13th November 2022, 20:12
To me it’s clear Lewis should’ve given max the space. But he just turned in to the apex where Max is almost completely next to him. The rules as stated here seem to say the same. But somehow the stewards decide differently.
MichaelN
13th November 2022, 22:42
@anunaki Exactly, the second picture from head on says it all.
The stewards are also clueless as usual, concluding that “Hamilton could possibly have given a little more room at the apex of turn 2, the Stewards determined that Verstappen was predominantly at fault.”
A little more room?! Hamilton was touching the inside white line as can be seen on the onboard shot. He never intended to leave any room for Verstappen, and he’s far too good a driver to do so by mistake.
It’s unfortunate for the fans who’d love to see the two champions duke it out, but for whatever reason these two guys can’t seem to think straight when racing each other.
hyoko
14th November 2022, 1:00
Next race at Abu Dabhi 44 will use a RPG to wreck Max’s car and the HIA will be happy with that too
Theoddkiwi (@theoddkiwi)
14th November 2022, 2:57
The important point that is being missed is Verstappen’s speed, he braked very late into turn 1 which was the only reason he got ahead of Hamilton, he then tried to carry that speed into turn 2 to try to reclaim the advantage. But with a higher speed and more accute angle into turn 2, there was no way he was going to make it without some contact and almost certainly pushing Hamilton very wide.
In my mind this is what the FIA have ultimately based their findings on, the video and photos dont show the car speed
bogolo moremong (@bogolo)
14th November 2022, 8:20
100%. it seem most are not looking at the video.
look where both cars ended up after contact. Hamilton had to take post collision avoiding action, and still Max went off.
MichaelN
14th November 2022, 11:58
@theoddkiwi Pushing a competitor wide is part of racing. Forcing someone off the track, on the inside or outside, is emphatically stated in the rules to be “strictly prohibited”.
SteveP
13th November 2022, 20:13
Thank you, that’s a much more polite description of Max’s behaviour at the finish. My description had a different word than “gifted”.
Thanks to him, and his terminally entitled behaviour, Perez is now equal on points with Leclerc, instead of two points ahead and Leclerc has more wins.
Davethechicken
13th November 2022, 20:15
I don’t know what Max is complaining about.
There were at least 5 car widths off the track to the right of Max, that he could have used.
That’s OK from last year’s precedent at Interlago in Max’s world when defending. Or is there utter hypocrisy at play.
mystic one (@mysticus)
13th November 2022, 20:22
this was all about let them (max) race (push people off the track… or people take avoiding action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icesjjvN6Sc&t=201s
yet this was max has to yield to noone… he has the right of way as the majesty of racing lines… whether he is behind or ahead by dive bombing
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LSAaVq4Dsw
LB (@burden93)
13th November 2022, 20:19
I think it could have been given as a racing incident, especially given the outcome. My view was that Max wasn’t far enough alongside and hit the side of him but Lewis could have given some room to be sure.
For me, Max is an incredible driver, but is still lacking good judgement sometimes. Regardless of the decision and who the other driver is, the risk reward of the move just wasn’t worth it. If he finds himself in a multi driver championship battle, he could throw it away like that. Outside of that he’s the complete driver
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:27
@burden93 It wasn’t judgement by Verstappen, but a deliberate decision. See his post-race interview.
“To be honest I went around the outside and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space, so I just went for it,” he told Sky. “He didn’t leave me space so I knew we were going to get together. It cost him the race win, for me it gave me five seconds. It wouldn’t have mattered anything for my race because we were just way too slow.”
Lucky Milo
13th November 2022, 20:21
Crashstappen is back
AlexTR (@petrucci)
13th November 2022, 20:22
People commenting here don’t bother reading the article /rules before they say what they stand for. Please do yourself a favour
MichaelN
13th November 2022, 22:50
The thing is, the “overtaking guidelines” aren’t actual rules. They’re not in the F1 Sporting Regulations and they’re not in the FIA Code.
Jim from US (@jimfromus)
13th November 2022, 20:23
When looking at the overhead, all, and I mean all of the cars taking that corner drove to the right hugging the racing line, except for Max, driving left.
The decision has to be correct as it was the stewards’ decision just like last year when the stewards’ decision was no investigation necessary when Max drove 20 feet off the track forcing Hamilton to drive farther off track.
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:32
And all, and I mean all of the other passing attempts in that same area had the car being passed providing at least a car to the one attempting to pass except Hamilton who had a car immediately to his side and just drove into him.
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:07
@neiana Hey, I know that facts usually make no impression on you at all, but on Sky TV, Max said he saw there was no space but went for it anyway knowing contact would occur. So now your idol has spoken, what do you say now?
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:30
@neina – More:
That is admitting to a criminal assault, for gain.
Jim from US (@jimfromus)
13th November 2022, 20:32
And for those saying how no one else clashed at that corner in this race, look at the replays, and you will see the driver behind back off, and then go for the overtake later on.
Neiana (@neiana)
13th November 2022, 20:33
False. I saw many many overtakes in the same corner where the two went side by side and either the pass completed or failed but not due to backing out.
The limit
13th November 2022, 20:33
The real penalty was the lost time replacing the front wing on Verstappen’s car, the kick in the biscuits was the five second penalty on top. In my opinion I agreed with Martin Brundle’s viewpoint that Max had the right to more room. Having said that I am pretty sure that if Max was in Hamilton’s shoes he would have done the same thing, both drivers played their part to an extent. Two drivers who clearly dislike one another, such a shame that this season has seen two few moments like this between these two. It’s worth the price of admission and what a contrast between this grands price and Mexico, night and day.
Andy (@andyfromsandy)
14th November 2022, 17:06
Sky TV are not allowed to upset ORBR for the rest of the season. Brundle just kept looking for a way to make it Hamilton’s fault.
The Edge (@the-edge)
13th November 2022, 20:38
Seeing as Max admitted it was his fault and said he had no intention of backing out & knew there wasn’t room it was without doubt car to lenient
Admitting you deliberately crashed into someone (again) should get you a race ban
Davethechicken
13th November 2022, 20:43
Yep saw that on sky. Max said he saw there was no space but went for it anyway knowing contact would occur.
RomTrain (@romtrain)
13th November 2022, 21:13
there is a reason he is called crashtappen
SteveP
13th November 2022, 21:27
So, he weaponises his car when it involves Lewis.
It seems he has zero respect for Lewis and never has had.
What exactly is it about Lewis that shifts him from aggressive and pushy against the likes of Leclerc, into a slavering maniac looking for blood?
Neil (@neilosjames)
13th November 2022, 20:58
First impression (live view) was that it was more Verstappen’s fault than Hamilton’s, and that it was around the boundary between racing incident and no penalty, and a penalty.
After seeing replays, a penalty seems fair, and five seconds is the standard so I’d call it correct.
petebaldwin (@)
13th November 2022, 21:01
I don’t think that’s worth a penalty. He had enough of the car alongside to deserve space. Having said that, for the stunt at the end with Checo, he deserved to have a bad day so I’m glad he got one.
JohnEver (@johnever)
14th November 2022, 8:17
yeah, I agree on both points
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:30
@petebaldwin But then Verstappen opened his mouth in the post-race interviews and basically said he deliberately crashed to cost Hamilton the chance of a win.
W-K (@w-k)
13th November 2022, 21:41
As the photo “Verstappen aims to re-pass Hamilton at turn two” shows, a carbon copy of Silverstone, and Verstappen knows from that he should have braked and pulled out of the overtaking move.
Therefore penalty was ‘to lenient” it should have been 10 secs.
Niefer (@niefer)
13th November 2022, 21:57
To me it’s quite simple: Senna S has plenty of space. When battling, one has the right to go alongside, Max did. The other tad ahead has the right to cover the racing line, Lewis did. If they both do what’s their right they may touch, and we have a racing incident. It was the same deal about Ocon and Verstappen some years ago, and I knew right away they would issue a penalty because of that. But I still believe both were nothing but a racing incident.
FlyingD
13th November 2022, 22:58
@mysticus
Do you get a cut for every time you give the same hyperlink?
mystic one (@mysticus)
14th November 2022, 10:37
Same reason when people repeat the same non sense…
Hypocrisy runs deep withing redbull and its fans! They re right no matter what! They twist the stories of exact carbon copy events to their narrative.
Just like Max is entitled to crash anyone who doesn’t yield to him. He admits it on live TV, yet pathetic FIA ignores this for all this time.
So try harder next time.
oweng (@oweng)
13th November 2022, 22:36
At first I thought Verstappen to blame, then after a couple of replays I thought 50/50, then after the overhead shot I thought Verstappen to blame.
Karun Chandhok did a pretty good analysis on sky and concluded the penalty was “probably” the right decision.
I think the key was Verstappen was slightly ahead round the outside of turn 1 but he wasn’t ahead going in to turn 2 and his angle for the corner meant unless he backed off he wasn’t going to make the corner. He didn’t back off, had contact and then didn’t make the corner. Had Hamilton left room then Verstappen wouldn’t have made the corner without forcing him off track.
So, on balance, a correct penalty.
And as Verstappen said, “he wasn’t going to leave room and I wasn’t going to back out”… it will always be the way with these two.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:33
@oweng Verstappen said more than that. Deliberately collided in order to ruin Hamilton’s race.
DaveW (@dmw)
13th November 2022, 22:47
I don’t know. But I hope Brundle fulminating against the penalty stems for a moment the terrible keening about “British Bias”.
Simon (@simon999)
13th November 2022, 23:17
Max’s own words after the race negate all debate here. Intent proven, penalty deserved and a much harsher punishment from the FIA is needed after his admission.
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:26
Ends the debate.
This is worse than “Crashgate”, where the crash did not involve another driver – Verstappen deliberately crashed into a rival to “cost him the race win”. How is that not assault, if not worse? That is a serious question.
hyoko
14th November 2022, 1:18
Poor reading comprehension. Max’s comment doesn’t do him any favors, but that’s not what he says.
He does not say he deliberately crashed into anybody. He says he went for the space knowing that the usual perpetrator was going to deliberately crash into him.
bogolo moremong (@bogolo)
14th November 2022, 8:25
That’s a stretch.
Do yourself a favour. Don’t paraphrase. Type out exactly what he said and read it a few times.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:34
Pot. Kettle. Black.
Keep defending the indefensible.
hyoko
15th November 2022, 23:13
Can’t play chess with a pigeon
greasemonkey
13th November 2022, 23:22
As someone who actually races, I think most people that actually race would call that a racing incident at most, and maybe slight Hamilton blame if you had to assign blame. Putting myself in both cockpits, I’d do exactly what Max did as Max, and if I didn’t get a good enough take on where Max was to my right, I’d probably do exactly what Lewis did as Lewis. And getting a good enough take can be hard with tiny mirrors and HANS.
I’d have called it a racing incident.
That doesn’t excuse Max’s attitude, but that attitude doesn’t really bear on the fault of the incident.
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:28
That is admitting to a criminal assault, convince me otherwise.
greasemonkey
13th November 2022, 23:33
It is a sport, not gangland warfare. So a better analogy would be more like admitting to drawing a foul in basketball.
greasemonkey
13th November 2022, 23:44
And for the record, I think both racing and basketball are technically broken as sports, although I’ll continue to watch both. Racing is broken because incidents where neither driver makes a mistake can still take them both out as a “racing incident. (and for the sake of argument, this particular incident need not be the example). This is fixable with better rules and tech, but for now, it is broken. Basketball is broken due to how much fouls are used as part of the came….if you commit a thing called a “foul” as a strategic choice, the sport is broken.
Biker56 (@biker56)
13th November 2022, 23:57
Ridiculous ‘whataboutism’ – comparing getting hit with a basketball, versus getting hit with a car at racing speeds. Go away, or answer the point.
greasemonkey
14th November 2022, 0:40
How rude. (“Go away, or answer the point?” Really?) But since I engaged, and I’d rather my point be clear to anyone else who might be reading….
Although I made my point, I can re-phrase. From the cockpit they both drove according to how any normal aggressive race driver I’ve met might drive, sans any championship considerations, just trying to win.
Max afterwards admits to basically baiting Lewis into what the broken sport of racing as is it now allows as a “racing incident”.
Biker56 (@biker56)
14th November 2022, 14:56
But the traces show V was on the throttle when the collision happened. And in the interview I quote, he explains his reasoning.
So when did V ‘go around the outside’ – that was turn 1. V does this a lot – I think so he can claim he’s ‘alongside’ even though he cannot make the corner. V is indeed going too fast to make the corner, so now he’s offline, and behind, into turn 2, too fast to make the corner even if he was alone, shown by the fact he’s gaining back on Hamilton’s Merc, who is on the racing line. So he thinks “He didn’t leave me space.” So he decides to accelerate, to deliberately crash into LH, to spoil his race. “It cost him the race win, for me it gave me five seconds.” It might have cost much more. Racing is dangerous even when the drivers are not trying to crash.
To compare this to a Basketball foul is IMHO ridiculous. How are they comparable? How sharp are the edges on a Basketball? Is the basketball full of 100l of gasoline? Will being hit by a Basketball possibly run me into a barrier at 100mph?
I don’t see this as arguing in good faith. My ‘go away’ line meant I thought your argument was wasting my time.
So do you have an argument – from your perspective – addressing V’s intent?
hyoko
14th November 2022, 1:21
See above
JohnEver (@johnever)
14th November 2022, 8:24
good comment in my opinion!
Also your level headed comeback after others telling you to ‘go away’ (just because you don’t agree with them, or something?).
people are so rude online, I wonder how they would act if there was a discussion face to face
Biker56 (@biker56)
14th November 2022, 14:59
Hi @johnever – please see my comment above answering greasemonkey. Did not mean to come off as rude, I just thought the comparison was bogus.
JohnEver (@johnever)
15th November 2022, 13:27
I don’t want this to begin a discussion, but then why don’t you say ‘I just thought the comparison was bogus.’ Nothing wrong with having your own opinion :-)
greasemonkey
15th November 2022, 18:45
From a pure sporting-design POV, I assert it is equivalent.
From a real-world consequence POV, the analogy is indeed not purely equivalent, but maybe not quite off as you might think. Basketball is the highest eye/vision injury sport (google it). Note that a “foul” is not getting hit with a round ball. It is getting hit with arms and hands up near your own arms, head, and eyes. Often on purpose as part of what amounts to a loophole in dealing with the clock and free throws. IOW, you can game the game by risking injury (often to eyes).
Further, if you prioritize reducing racing’s inherent risk factor too far, to dissolve the sport itself. You may as well just do qual, and end the event there.
Both sports are broken. Racing is fixable (somewhat).
In this specific case, I stand by that the actions by both drivers were nominal, including accelerating into that apex coming off of being less than ideal apex speed on the last one. Max’s intent may have been to bait Lewis, but that is where my analogy is intended to apply.
EffWunFan (@cairnsfella)
14th November 2022, 0:27
I honestly would have penalised LH based upon the ‘TV’ data I had to hand. Perhaps knowing the extent to which MV late braked on the previous corner my have tempered my view, but I still find it difficult to blame MV for the collision.
Note: I am a LH fan, and whilst I can appreciate a lot MV’s driving, I could never be called a fan.
I would add, however, that MV’s comment:
doesn’t seem like the most intelligent thing to do or say.
Velocityboy (@velocityboy)
14th November 2022, 0:46
Hamilton left a car widths room. In that corner being on the inside and leaving your opponent a car widths room means that the only way your opponent can get through the corner is to lift and pull in behind. Today’s drivers don’t seem to understand that lifting is an option. This is “old school” racing where car positioning is all that’s required. Today’s drivers don’t seem to realize that lifting and surviving to the next corner is an option. Max was wrong and was penalized for his mistake, simple.
hyoko
14th November 2022, 1:30
My take: Max is slightly to blame, for knowingly coming into harm’s way. So le’s get the penalties in due proportion to the blame for the incident:
-Max: a 5 seconds penalty, ok, fine
-44: a 50 year ban from F1 and all other form of motorsports
Theoddkiwi (@theoddkiwi)
14th November 2022, 2:59
The important point that is being missed is Verstappen’s speed, he braked very late into turn 1 which was the only reason he got ahead of Hamilton, he then tried to carry that speed into turn 2 to try to reclaim the advantage. But with a higher speed and more accute angle into turn 2, there was no way he was going to make it without some contact or running very wide out of turn 2 and almost certainly pushing Hamilton wide regardless of the space Hamilton gave him.
Correct decision.
OOliver
14th November 2022, 3:04
Exactly. He got away with lots of this stuff last season. Launching himself round the outside and arriving at impossible angles and forcing the other driver to avoid a crash. I am relieved the stewards used the telemetery finally which they refused to use in 2021
bosyber (@bosyber)
14th November 2022, 7:52
Yeah, that’s the part that doesn’t translate well to a still image analysis isn’t it (but video is of course more difficult to legally quote).
LaChesserie
14th November 2022, 22:46
The problem I have with this line of thinking is that they crashed because Hamilton didn’t leave the space he was supposed to. Regardless of if Max WOULD have made the corner he was not given the chance to. Max was along side and entitled to be given some space. If Lewis gives the car’s width required and Max blows through the corner and hits Lewis then 100% Max penalty and should probably be more then a 5 sec penalty.
Hiland (@flyingferrarim)
14th November 2022, 3:30
In short, Max should not have seen a 5 second penalty and 2 penalty points for what happened. I would chalk it up as a racing incident but I do believe Lewis should have given more room to Max especially since Max was still well alongside (more than a half car length up). With that said, after Max’s comments at the end of the race, maybe the 5 seconds is justified, lol. Max’s ego is really starting to come through and becoming less likable for sure.
Dennis
14th November 2022, 3:40
Max admitted to knowing there was not going to be space but I just went for it??? Why are we then questioning the steward’s decision? They probably should increase the penalty points added to his license!
FlyingD
14th November 2022, 4:35
I would like to see a picture where there is sufficient room left by LH in the corner where the touching happened for MV to stay on track. I think it is a requirement in the rules. So far I have not found one. As far as all these experts find that MV was going too fast, I must have been mistaken when I thought that racing meant going from beginning to end in the fastest possible way.
Adam Hardwick (@fluxsource)
14th November 2022, 9:19
While staying on track. He was going too fast to be able to make the corner.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
14th November 2022, 6:44
I thought it was a racing incident with, if anything, slightly more fault for hamilton, for not leaving the space, and I was surprised to see that:
Far too harsh (36%)
Slightly too harsh (16%)
Correct (30%)
Slightly too lenient (7%)
Far too lenient (11%)
No opinion (1%)
Total Voters: 178
the majority also thinks 5 sec for verstappen was too harsh.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
14th November 2022, 6:45
Maybe the far too harsh people think hamilton should’ve had a penalty, and the slightly too harsh people think it should’ve been a racing incident.
scss (@scss)
14th November 2022, 8:21
I find it difficult to grasp how anyone acquainted with driving speed could objectively arrive at the conclusion the stewards reached in this matter.
Hamilton ran Verstappen wide and then turned in on him. It is painfully clear.
Neither of these drivers are favorites of mine so I don’t have a dog in this fight.
With that said, neither of these guys has a stellar record. Hamilton is more suttle, but pulls just as many stunts as Verstappen. But that’s not the point…
The stewards aren’t (or shouldn’t be) considering past behavior/incidents when determining fault (if any).
I could live with the contact being put down as a racing incident – especially since it was at the start; but if a penalty was applied, it should have landed on Hamilton.
I’m thinking we’ve overlooked a major issue here… The stewards need to be assessed penalty points.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:40
@scss Verstappen only got ahead going into T1 because he went in way too deep. Hamilton didn’t “run Verstappen wide”.
Having gone in too deep, Verstappen was always going to struggle to make T2 and certainly nowhere near the racing line (which Hamilton had).
Verstappen’s post-race interview should have removed any doubt as to who was responsible. The stewards got it bang on. If they’d known what Verstappen said afterwards, the penalty would likely have been higher.
scss (@scss)
14th November 2022, 22:29
It’s a rare occasion when a collision is entirely one-sided on the track, or on the road. As you mention Steve, Verstappen as much as said he had a part in it.
I can’t remember the last time Hamilton took responsibility for anything… It’s always the other guy’s fault and he doesn’t change his position post race even when confronted with the evidence. In that regard, he’s the polar opposite of Leclerc.
No matter what the prior blame assignment, when you have a car alongside you (not in your blind spot) and you turn in on him knowing he has nowhere to go (struggling to hang on with the inside wheels well on the rumble strips); in my view, that’s indefensible.
Regardless of what occurred before that point in time; that was the cause of the contact and it was unnecessary.
Rhys Lloyd (@justrhysism)
15th November 2022, 2:32
@scbriml
…and yet, he would’ve easily still made the corner—albeit slower than normal. He wasn’t careening off the track.
If Hamilton allowed a bit of extra space inside the corner, he would’ve had the inside line for turns 3 and 4 as Verstappen would’ve been stuck on the outside unless he yielded for a slipstream (and lose momentum in the process). As such, I believe Hamilton would’ve maintained position on the exit of turn 4 had it played out.
To me it’s a racing incident, and the penalty was way too harsh.
Jeorge (@jeorge)
14th November 2022, 7:12
Too harsh
Other drivers in the same situation left space and carried the advantage to keep the place on the next left-hand corner
Sir Lewis was at fault
Mayrton
14th November 2022, 7:44
As shown by Mick later in the race. 100% Lewis fault
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:42
As shown by Verstappen’s words after the race. 100% Verstappen’s fault.
Steve (@scbriml)
14th November 2022, 9:41
@jeorge Then why did Verstappen say he deliberately crashed into Hamilton to ruin his race?
Jeorge (@jeorge)
14th November 2022, 16:31
@scbriml What Verstappen and Hamilton said and what happened at the corner are two different things
Hamilton didn’t leave space which if he did would’ve actually benefited him
But despite (in my opinion) being the one on the wrong, he said “he is a target for other drivers”
What he and Verstappen said afterwards (in my opinion) is an emotional reaction which doesn’t change the fact that had he left enough space on the left he would’ve kept his place on the next corner and had a better race result, possibly a win
Adam Hardwick (@fluxsource)
14th November 2022, 9:18
Given the evidence during the race, it was entirely correct. Verstappen was never going to make that corner given his massively compromised line – you can’t really call it an overtake attempt.
However, given Verstappen’s comments post-race it changes from being an error in judgment to deliberately causing a crash. And given his character, I’m not surprised.
Alec Glen (@alec-glen)
14th November 2022, 9:59
People forget that Max, after seeing that the gap would close, chose to go full throttle on a compromised entry knowing full well that he’d not make the corner without making contact on the outside. That’s why he got the penalty, because he wasn’t in a position to overtake in a controlled manner.
It’s the throttle trace that confirmed the matter, regardless of positioning on the still photos even with the new Max rules of engagement for this year.
David
14th November 2022, 12:00
The photos show the move was never on and Max was reckless to attempt it, his comments also suggest he knew Hamilton wasn’t going to leave room so why try it?
Mayrton
14th November 2022, 14:05
If anything its shows how poor the stewarding still is. FIA needs to solve this as we no longer have processional racing but finally cars and rivers that want to race rather than being gifted positions.
FlyingD
14th November 2022, 16:27
@fluxsource
Re: “He was going too fast to be able to make the corner.”
Please show me your calculations on how you arrived at this.
Or is it just a visible approximation of a biased mind?
@esploratore1
I am with you on this. The majority speaks.
@scbriml
Re: “Verstappen was always going to struggle to make T2”
You must speak from experience. All these years that you raced in F1 I assume.
Of course, knowing about how tyres hold you in the corners is an asset that you have and these guys don’t.
@jeorge and Mayrton
Rational viewing. Good on you. I am with you on that.
@scbriml
If you take words spoken just about 2 hours after it happened as gospel, OK.
If you’d said that MV is at times a hothead, I would agree with you but that does not LH running him off the track make go away or justify that.
Look at the pictures again. It’ll clear up all doubts.
It seems that most people think it should be regulated like traffic in big cities.
Maybe someone should suggest to have stoplights at corners.
I have never raced professionally, only at times on the hwy when no cops around, but it seems that everyone knows exactly what is going on in these peoples heads when they have to make a decision within the blink of an eye.
Adam Hardwick (@fluxsource)
16th November 2022, 0:37
From visible approximations, my own experience racing, and the analysis from Karun Chandhok. What are your sources?
LaChesserie
14th November 2022, 17:01
I think we are seeing that after years of dominance Lewis has forgotten how to race someone wheel to wheel. For years Lewis has had so much so the better car that if he was trying to overtake a car and it was 50/50 he could back out and a) overtake later or b) finish the race one spot back and keep building his points lead in the championship. I’m starting to think that Lewis thinks this is how all drivers race and expected Max to back out of that spot. There was that incident with Alonso at Spa that was similar I think where he just cut across Alonso like he wasn’t there. I think everyone else on the grid who has been racing in the midfield for so many years have a different understanding of when cars are going to back out and when they are going to fight. In regards to the incident on Sunday, Max is never going to give up the inside line after throwing out around the outside. That’s what you do, go along the outside so you can come down the inside on the next corner. Lewis should have known Max was there and given him at least one’s car width around the whole corner and into turn three. He didn’t need to give anymore then that and if Max still hit Lewis then it’s 100% Max’s fault and give him a 10 second penalty (especially if Max was carrying way more speed then everyone else into that corner and was deemed to be out of control). However we don’t know what would have happened because Lewis cut Max off at the apex, not out of malice but because he thought Max would back out (just like Lewis would if he had already secured a decisive championship win).
hyoko
15th November 2022, 23:39
Well, that is extremely generous of you. Incompetence and lack of racing ability do not exclude malice or intent.
hyoko
15th November 2022, 23:44
Again extremely generous, “forgotten” implies “once knew”
sR
14th November 2022, 19:42
The only reason MV was even close to being alongside LH was because he braked way too late and compromised his entry/exit – the very definition of divebombing.. Re-read the rules – it’s all there and exactly why MV got a penalty. That he admitted he tried to drive through LH admits to dangerous behavior and should bring more penalties.
hyoko
15th November 2022, 23:50
The closest incident I can remember was the same perpetrator crashing into Fernando at Spa. Although may be in a less deliberate way and more out of sheer incompetence.
What Fernando said afterwards sums it up very nicely, better than anything I could say
Boomerang
16th November 2022, 10:27
Max was after ‘diminishing gap’ to be precise. It was quite clear in ‘Senna S’ corner that Lewis was aiming at second apex and left to his opponent two options 1) to continue and collide, or 2) to back off. Is there any malice in choosing the option one I can’t say, is there any malice aiming the apex on Lewis’ side I cannot comment on that either. What I know for sure is that It’s a quite common racing accident. I’ve seen many drivers so far going after ‘diminishing gap’ and I’m sure this is not the last time we will witness this kind of racing move.