Whatever triggered it, Verstappen’s defiance of his own team makes little sense

2022 F1 season

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Until Max Verstappen surprisingly rebuffed Red Bull’s request to let his team mate past in the closing moments of the Brazilian Grand Prix, few would have suspected a rift between the two drivers.

After the race, Sergio Perez laid it on a bit thick over how crucial his support role had been to both of Verstappen’s championship wins. But there’s no doubt he has been closer to Verstappen’s pace than his previous team mates and that has proved valuable to the world champion at times.

Last year Perez repelled Verstappen’s title rival Lewis Hamilton with tremendous skill in the Turkish Grand Prix, delaying his rise through the field. He repeated the performance in Abu Dhabi, where Perez’s contribution arguably cost Hamilton so much time it later denied him the opportunity to make a pit stop onto fresher tyres and defend himself from Verstappen’s last-lap attack.

This year, too, Perez has played the obedient number two role when ordered. Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has lavished praise on the working relationship between his two drivers, most recently in an interview which aired over the Brazilian Grand Prix weekend.

Horner praised drivers’ “camaraderie” before Interlagos
“There’s a lot of respect between the two,” Horner told Channel 4. “They’re both at different stages in their careers. Checo is under no illusions of the challenge that he has in having Max as a team mate. But he also has enough confidence in himself and in his own ability.

“He’s made some incredible drives this year, he’s second in the world championship for a reason because he’s delivered at such a high level. The two grand prix victories that he’s had so far this year, both in Monaco and in Singapore, have been outstanding performances. Certainly earlier in the year he got on top of the car quickly, it suited him. That pole position in Saudi Arabia, again, another street circuit, another circuit that favours the brave, he was outstanding there.

“So I think it’s been a great year for Sergio and I think that respect between the two drivers, the camaraderie between the two drivers has been phenomenal.”

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But that camaraderie was conspicuous by its absence on Sunday evening at Interlagos.

Report: “This shouldn’t be allowed” Verstappen tells team after Perez’s crash ends Q3
Following a late Safety Car period, Red Bull told Perez to let Verstappen by in order for him to attack Fernando Alonso, on the promise he would get his position back if no progress was made. Strikingly, the same message was not relayed to Verstappen at that time. Only on the final lap was he told to drop back and let Perez past.

Nonetheless, so emphatic was Verstappen’s dismissal of the eventual instruction for him to move aside, it seems doubtful he would have complied under any circumstances. “I told you already last time guys, don’t ask that again to me, okay,” said Verstappen, adding for emphasis: “Are we clear about that? I gave my reasons and I stand by it.”

“It shows who he really is,” said Perez as he drove back to the pits. One striking detail of the exchange was how quickly Horner apologised to Perez on his radio, and the fact he did not speak to Verstappen at the same time.

Following the race Verstappen kept his counsel over exactly what his reasons were. However when asked by Sky if they related to the events of the Monaco Grand Prix he answered: “You can decide that. I’m not going to say.”

Perez’s Monaco Grand Prix win, one of the “outstanding performances” Horner described, came after he hit the barriers during the final runs in qualifying. The crash brought the session to an end and ensured Perez would start third ahead of Verstappen.

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Drivers have been accused of deliberate crashes during qualifying in Monaco before, as it’s relatively easy to trigger a red flag which stops the session and prevents rivals from improving their times. Michael Schumacher was penalised for doing so in 2006. Hamilton clearly suspected Nico Rosberg went up the escape road at Mirabeau for the same reason eight years later, but he went unpunished.

Perez took his first win of 2022 in Monaco
Whether or not Perez did the same, the incident appears to be the cause of Verstappen’s ire. Up until the moment of impact Verstappen had set personal best times in all seven mini-sectors he’d been through. Perez was slower in six of the nine he’d covered, faster in one and fastest of all in two; crucially his overall time through the entire first sector was slower.

Of course does not mean Perez crashed deliberately, but there’s no doubt Verstappen had good reason to believe he would have out-qualified his team mate had the session come to an uninterrupted end. “This shouldn’t be allowed,” he told Lambiase on the radio as he sat waiting for Perez’s car to be recovered, along with the Ferrari of Carlos Sainz Jnr which had crashed into it.

Verstappen’s readiness to disobey an instruction from his team should surprise no one. He did much the same when he and Sainz were team mates at Toro Rosso in 2015, during the Singapore Grand Prix.

But whatever his views about what happened in Monaco, he may have done himself no favours by clashing so publicly with his team. If he needs a reminder of the value of having Perez on-side, Verstappen should recall the events of the races which preceded and followed it.

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A week earlier in Spain, Verstappen was waved past his team mate on two separate occasions on his way to victory, despite going into the race only 19 points ahead of Perez. On the first occasion Perez was told “give him a shot now, we’ll pay back later”, but no payback ever came. Nonetheless, two weeks after Monaco in Azerbaijan, Perez again pulled aside for Verstappen when ordered to.

Verstappen says he ‘has his reasons’ for not helping Perez
Verstappen gives nothing away on-track – as Sunday’s race also showed – and the same is true off it. But on this occasion you have to wonder whether he has picked an unnecessary fight which in the long term will work against his interests.

It’s beyond obvious that a driver who has already taken 14 wins and a world championship this year is not in need of a sixth place finish. He has chosen a worthless two points in the championship at the expense of intra-team harmony. Time will tell whether that was a price worth paying.

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Keith Collantine
Lifelong motor sport fan Keith set up RaceFans in 2005 - when it was originally called F1 Fanatic. Having previously worked as a motoring...

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178 comments on “Whatever triggered it, Verstappen’s defiance of his own team makes little sense”

  1. After the sprint race Marko said that they didn’t switch places because VER was too far ahead of PER but he also added that if they wanted to switch VER would do it. That statement turns out to be false less than 24 hours later.

    1. The only place that matters is number 1, Perez is not number 1. VER obviously has more respect for LEC than he has for PER. He believes you have to earn it. In his perspective PER should let him pass when he is quicker, like he would switch places when he is slow, as he did not many times. Me, I don’t like this “we are a team” talks.. Everyone should drive as fast as they can, i am in that way against teamorders where you manipulate results based on needed points instead of speed, it is not fair to LEC. I do not watch f1, because the drivers are such nice guys.. VER is definitely not a nice guy on track, but he stands for racing and always goes for max result.

      1. If he’s going to refuse team orders this way, he should refuse to accept them too, IMHO. If he’s not happy to help his teammate out, but he’s happy for his teammate to sacrifice his own race to help him, that makes him a hypocrite at best.

        I’d respect him for this if he didn’t ask for assistance, and if he criticised the occasions where he benefited from them. I have no respect for a driver who will take all the help handed to him, even ask the team or his teammate to help him out, but won’t even return the favour when it doesn’t cost him anything.

        1. You can help your teammate by blocking the other driver, staying out to force another driver to pit, but letting someone pass when you are much quicker, it’s just something else completely and the opposite of racing. It is an opportunity for PER to help VER, just like BOT had this opportunity. If they did not help the number one driver, they would be utterly useless for the team. HAM would never help VER (and vica versa lol) and BOT would always help VER, it is just the way it is, when you are the slowest. First thing what you do in racing F1 is destroying your teammate, without exceptions.. Norris did that the most this season, good for him

          1. And I’m sure Perez has never let Verstappen past when he hasn’t been faster, or held position behind him when he had the pace to get past. He would obviously complain about it that way around, too, of he’s not a hypocrite, so it must never have happened… 😒

          2. what Perez had to do to help Max is also opposite of racing. Countless times He had to ruin his own race.

          3. Broadsword to Danny Boy
            16th November 2022, 13:55

            And yet HAM has handed places back to Bottas (Hungary 2017, Austria 2021), arguably when it could have still affected the championship if it went to the wire. He disn’t always though, but then most drivers have a patchy record of obeying ‘let your team mate by’ orders!
            The difference with Max is that the order wouldn’t influence his championship, it would have given PER a clear second place in the championship and it only gave him a sixth place anyway.

            I expect he’s just desperate to go for the stats (most points in a season), as if Merc and Ferr (and others) are more competitive next season then this may be is best shot at setting the record. I expect he figures that if PER beats LEC at Abu D then all will come good. I seen some suggest that if VER is ahead of PER he could always let him by in the final race, but it won’t help PER if LEC is ahead of him, or both of them, and if he’s behind it’s unnecessary anyway so would be a fairly eempty gesture unless it was looking like the Ferrari was likely to catch the RB before the end..

            As the article suggests, VER has potentially sacrificed team harmony and a compliant no.2 for next season for two measly points he didn’t need and a 6th place. If LEC finishes ahead of PER in Abu D then PER may not fight quite so hard to protect VER or be so willing to move aside when it really counts in 2023 (although I expect he’ll mostly play the game)

          4. This, again. “First, beat your teammate.”

      2. You are arguing against yourself. The point that Max is significantly better than Perez (and most of the grid for that matter) strengthens the positions that he should have given up a meaningless spot and not pick a stupid fight for his own sake going forward, not Checo’s. It’s ironic that this happened in a weekend where Mercedes had the superior car. With Ferrari and Mercedes competing for race wins next year and Red Bull further handicapped in development resources because of their penalty for breaching the cap, Max just made his 2023 title defense harder for no reason at all.

        1. A team of scientists, using data provided by the FIA, have been able to establish the exact reason why Verstappen decided not to let his teammate pass him at last Sunday’s Brazilian Grand Prix:

          He’s a tool.

      3. Max didn’t become #1 on personal merit alone in ’21. He has Checo to thank for enabling the opportunity to arise.

      4. Verstappen didn’t let Perez by because he is vindictive, nothing else.

        1. Middle School playground … I swear.

          1. Exactly…..you surely must remember how young, and more than just chronologically, Max is. He had an opportunity to support the team…and Checo…and he placed his own feelings concerning a highly questionable interpretation of a racing event…before the teams request.
            You can say a lot about Max, but, surely no one would accuse him of being an equitable teammate.

    2. This doesnt make sense. Verstappen said over team radio that he told the team last summer his reasons. But Monaco was this year.

      1. Given that it is now deep into autumn, “last summer” could be taken to mean 2022.

        1. I would actually interprete it the same way as jackl: last summer = 2021.

          1. Last summer 2022 that is what i read as Dutch native Summer is over for us So also for Max meaning this summer (2022)

          2. Last summer means 2022 when it’s already Autumn/Winter. This coming from a native English speaker (British citizen).

          3. Also native British English speaker:

            * last summer = summer last year
            * this summer = summer this year
            * next summer = summer next year

  2. This entire article thinks of Max as a normal respectful team oriented individual…

    One could say Perez is like that, George, Daniel, Mick S.,.. Many of them driver dudes.

    Not Max though..

    Max is self centered individual, daily putting his life and reputation on the line for an extra point, extra tenth, extra foot.

    He probably thinks it is his god given right, for teammate to move aside, helping Perez win P2 in title of the loosers – as he would see it, is a mere annoyance.

    Any normal teammate would move over, help a guy out, at 0 cost to them..

    But not Max. Max is not any normal teammate.

    1. He probably thinks it is his god given right, for teammate to move aside,

      Not quite accurate. He probably thinks it is his god given right, foreveryone to move aside,

      1. This.

  3. I think Max is going for statistics over his career so he will never yield points to a teammate. We know that he feels disrespected, and his 2 championships have some amount of taint to them. If he ends up with best stats over his career, then there will be no doubt he was the best ever. He will try his best to finish every race ahead of everyone including his teammates and the team will just need to accept that.

    1. Well if that’s so, it’s severely flawed reasoning @jimfromus; I can believe that if he feels disrespected (I think that’s something that his father suffered from as well, and the frustration might be part of what hampered his career, so I can see it being there, but also, he really needs to find a way to get over it), but behaving like this is exactly how that’s going to increase within the racing world.

      Sure his stats are there, but we’ve seen with Schumacher how that’s not actually the final word for many (and even Hamilton who has stats but is constantly reasoned to be undeserving of them), but it will never make him whole if the problem is inside of himself. He should get a different set of people around him to help fix that.

      1. Broadsword to Danny Boy
        16th November 2022, 14:03

        If he feels ‘disrespected’ then this sort of behavior can only feed that and make it worse. To have a team mate frequently let you by or help you in other ways only to refuse pointedly to reciprocate when it would have been at minimal cost to you (and would only be placing you back in the position you should have been anyway before they kindly let you by) is the sort of thing that loses you respect from neutral observers.

  4. Verstappen is the new 90s Schumacher, even down to the controversial situations he got his two championships.

    1. I don’t really get it when people say this year’s title is controversial

      1. Keith C (not that one)
        15th November 2022, 17:49

        A million here, a million there, and pretty soon you’re talking performance.

      2. Spending millions over the cap is cheating.

      3. Yes, I wouldn’t say controversial, the extra money was too small to have any serious impact, but it could have the same value as schumacher’s 2001 or hamilton’s 2019 title: pretty much a dominant car, although there was competition some races.

  5. Top-level drivers tend to be disagreeable, so Verstappen’s behaviour is only in line with a lot of other champions. The question about why a driver would do something not in their best-interests is missing the point.

    Schumacher ignored his team when he stormed into Coulthard’s pit bay. That wasn’t in his ‘best interests’. He acted as if his team members didn’t exist. Hamilton tweeted out his and Button’s data after he was annoyed at what happened in qualifying. That wasn’t in his ‘best interests’. Senna punched Irvine, again not in his ‘best interests’. Alonso, is well, Alonso.

    So the theme isn’t ‘why would a driver would act so disagreeable and in a way not congruent with eam harmony?’. The theme is ‘why disagreeability seems to be a very common trait with the world’s best drivers?’.

    It makes total sense why Max behaved/behaves the way he does. Disagreeability is a very common trait in successful people, partially because it tends to mean said people don’t rely on others approval before taking action. It may make fans of the sport ask “what is going on?” but I think it’s actually weird if a driver isn’t like this.

    1. Yes this is spot on. When the fastest drivers on the grid have the power over their own team interests (like Multi 21 for one instance), they will do what they want. Remember Vettel getting booed later that year across the globe pretty much? It was because many fans were against unsporting behavior, which admittedly it was on the surface. So I wouldn’t be surprised if Max is booed at Abu Dhabi this year, but what does he care? He was already disliked quite a bit anyway.

      What is most unfathomable to me is having Red Bull broadcast to the world “What happened Max?” Really? Did they expect any good to come from that on the public airwaves that now get reprinted over the world and quoted on all major news sites? Other teams act like this too, but Red Bull really has historically been the worst, and I guess it comes down to how Christian and Helmut lead their teams and drivers.

      I also don’t like the public discussions on the radio about swapping positions for 2nd place in the driver’s championship because it seems too contrived for public consumption for my tastes, and the direction this is all taking the sport is not a good one. But I guess that’s another topic altogether apart from MV now being respected less than ever before.

      1. It’s a misleading fallacy that very successful people are horrible by nature and it’s part of some ‘essential’ single-natured DNA that makes them great. The reality is that successful people are ones who foster fantastic teams with strong morale around themselves and push to excel – the petulant behaviour that various diva F1 drivers sometimes try to get away with is entirely optional, and mostly a result of no-one daring to challenge them e.g. RB cossetting Max 24/7 and absolving him of all blame.

        Hamilton, Senna, Schumacher et al had their red-blooded moments but for the most part they understood they were part of a team, even if they disagreed or flew off the handle. Max in his career so far has been wholly incapable and/or diametrically opposed to anything that doesn’t directly benefit him, he hasn’t shown an ounce of grace or humility and there’s been nothing to balance out his many aggressive, ugly actions and comments. He’s continued to behave in a toxic way because there’s been no accountability from either RB or the FIA, who’ve repeatedly let him off the hook or turned a blind eye as he ascends to being the ‘next big thing’.

        You can’t blame RB either for genuinely asking their driver why he didn’t give his teammate even the smallest of favours, it’s a rare moment of insight into a team that likes to gaslight everyone after the race is over.

        1. Effwon, absolutely right. In the case of MS in particular, he made a huge difference to the way drivers were seen at Ferrari. Ferrari had a long culture of thinking it was all about the car, and drivers were priveliged to be driving it. In fact, even the engine section and the aero section seemed to be a loggerheads with each other. After Jean Alesi ran out of fuel, they removed the button which allowed drivers to modify the fuel mixture because the engineers felt drivers couldn’t be trusted with important decisions like that. Schumacher really built bonds with the team. These days it is normal to see race winners jumping into the arms of the mechanics, but that was a trend which I first really noticed with Schumacher. Yes, he was hard as nails on track with other drivers, very much insisted on being the number one driver in the team, but still a good team player.

        2. You can’t talk fallacies and then make statements without any foundation. You absolutely have no idea what grace or humility Max has shown to his team. What loyalty he has in the team. You use the term toxic, but is RBR toxic (I think that term has lost ALL meaning nowadays as has ‘petulant’.)? Have you spoke to anyone in the team, ever? What a lot of ex-RBR people have said is he’s a nice guy, pretty chill and normal.

          You bring up Senna, but what humility did he show Alex Hawkridge, the man who bought him into F1, when he signed for Lotus behind Toleman’s back? He was replaced at Monza because of it (I think the only example of a team boss taking real meaningful action for disrespect). What humility did Schumacher show when he couldn’t get out of the Jordan fast enough? I could go on with multiple examples. The Sennas, Schumachers, and yes Hamiltons, are utterly ruthless in how they go about things. Trying to separate out Max from them, is not really going to work.

          It may be that more ‘agreeable’ drivers might be better off long term, but we don’t have a big sample of drivers, but the ones we have don’t tend to be multiple world champions.

          1. You’ve taken what I said and and applied it only to his own team – constructing your own strawman and then attempting to beat me with it. I’ve no idea what Max is like in-house, he’s probably a nice enough guy, but to the outside world, especially other drivers or the FIA, he’s consistently obnoxious and allergic to blame, and that’s there for all to see.

            The greats all have their horror moments, but then there’s Senna rushing to Comas’ aid, Mansell giving Senna a ride and Schumi doing the same with Fisi as well as lending Coulthard a helmet at Monaco. World Champions at least apologising when they’re in the wrong or showing contrition or embarrassment e.g. Alonso, Vettel, Schumacher (several times) and so on. Lewis in particular has shown being fair-minded isn’t incompatible with emerging triumphant throughout his career, relinquishing a podium place to Bottas mid-season when he was BEHIND in the title race with Vettel (Hungary ’17), not to mention the dignity he showed in despair after Abu Dhabi ’22.

            I simply can’t think of any notable examples in Max’s now-seven seasons of F1 of him extended that kind of courtesy or respect to anyone else, other than lavishing praise on Perez for taking one for him, talking up an opponent in the media, or clapping. That’s it. His unfiltered remarks are often needlessly callous, and his actions, like walking away from a crash where his car was on top of Hamilton’s without so much as a glance, smack of immaturity and anger. Excusing these behaviours by acting like that’s a hallmark of great drivers ignores the history of the sport, and the complex balancing act of emotion, teamwork and ruthlessness required by those involved.

          2. I’m somewhere in the middle between Alan Dove and @effwon.

            I think that for Verstappen — as for many people — living by his values and standing up for himself and his personal moral code is more important to him than metrics of success or approval or even self-interest. His personal moral code just happens to be “an eye for an eye”.

            In that respect, his acts make total sense. If anything, I suspect that he would view his costing Perez only a sixth place — when (in his mind) Perez cost him a Monaco win — as magnanimous, even generous.

            I wouldn’t necessarily link any of this to Verstappen’s success, though, or whether or not he is disagreeable. I think it says more about Verstappen’s sense of justice — and that he doesn’t mind if it leaves him and the entire team blind.

            While that personal ethos is much different from Hamilton’s, I think his conviction to live by it is not so different from Hamilton, which is partly why their rivalry makes for such compelling psychodrama.

          3. two words: Mika Häkkinen

          4. You use the term toxic, but is RBR toxic (I think that term has lost ALL meaning nowadays as has ‘petulant’.)

            The terms are somewhat threadbare, yes.
            But pause and consider why they are worn out from overuse: Verstappen

          5. For all the doubts that you pose on MV’s behavior to his team principals and teammates, of course no one has a camera inside the team following them 24/7 and knowing what they do.
            Unfortunately you really have to show us your credentials in psychology and character analysis and also any studies that you’ve done on the personality traits of former F1 world champions so that we can accept them.
            Everyone here is commenting on F1 drivers behaviors towards their TEAMMATES, not owners, from publicly known interactions over the last 40 years of F1 history.
            Hell… even Ayrton Senna who was probably one of the most if not the most fierce competitors on track gave a win to Gerhardt Berger and that was a win not 6 to 7 pos swap.
            Let MV actions speak for themselves and stop giving excuses for the man.
            You can now kindly take your MV glasses off and enjoy your favorite specimen of F1 driver for one more race until the end of the year.

    2. “Schumacher ignored his team when he stormed into Coulthard’s pit bay”

      Wasn’t that because DC had just collided with MS? Can’t remember which way round it was, who ran into who, but I remeber MS clearly thought DC had been reckless.

      “Hamilton tweeted out his and Button’s data after he was annoyed at what happened in qualifying”

      I think that was LH being dumb rather than malicious, not realising that you should never ever give away detailed data, and secondly forgetting that when you are using social media, the whole world can watch over your shoulder. You are not just chatting to your friends.

      “Senna punched Irvine”

      Again, I think that was when EI had taken them both out of the race. If that’s the one I’m thinking of, I remember the commentator remarking that it was a bit dumb to try to punch someone wearing a crash helmet.

      The point I’m trying to make here is that in these cases, the circumstances were very different. I agree that none of them were in the interests of the driver or the team, but they were not confrontational with the team in the way that Max’s comments were. In those examples you gave, you can see something clearly triggered the red mist in Schumacher and Senna, but in Verstappen’s case it just seemed to come out of the blue, a routine order to change positions which was clearly in the interests of the team, and he says no. In most cases where drivers are arguing with teams, you can sort of see it from both sides, even if you don’t agree with it. In this case, I haven’t heard anyone coming up with a justification for why MV would be disagreeing with the team.

      1. Senna went behind Toleman’s back and signed with Lotus, and got replaced at Monza for it as it was a breach of contract. A monumental act that is nothing but confrontational. When has Max not shown loyalty to RBR?

        The point I am making is disagreeableness is a trait that’s common a lot of multiple world champions (albeit a small sample). It manifests in different ways, but it’s clearly there. Sometimes it’s what max did at Brasil, sometimes it’s weird tweets with confidential data (and you say it isn’t confrontational, but put yourself in the shoes of a team boss where your drivers is doing that kind of thing), sometimes it’s actual violence as with Senna/Irvine. These are all confrontational in nature because it puts team members in difficult positions. No one wants to confront a drivers and say “what are you thinking?”

        And this is only what we see on TV or online, not what happens behind closed doors.

        I see a lot of comments about how Max should behave, what he should be doing… but he’s the guy with 2x WDCs…. maybe we should be listening to him as well as the other WDCs.

        1. Yes, but at least one of those WDC’s wouldn’t have happened without Perez’s help. If Albon had been in the Red Bull in 2021, Lewis Hamilton would be an 8x WDC.

          1. That’s conjecture. Perez was as much fighting for a contract in F1 as he was for Max at the time. Had Perez taken the attitude not to defend would he have had his contract renewed, so it was evident that Perez had a bit self-interest there

          2. If you swap perez with albon you can also swap bottas with a driver that doesn’t play bowling and verstappen still wins 2021!

          3. nah @esploratore1, they’d replace him with a driver who doesn’t go bowling, but then does perhaps manage to defend against other than his teammate when they are coming up against him, which doesn’t take them out of races, but does depress their points and ability to simply drive past him to the front, thus Hamilton still might win that, and the teammate remains ahead of Perez in the standings.

      2. Wasn’t that because DC had just collided with MS? Can’t remember which way round it was, who ran into who, but I remeber MS clearly thought DC had been reckless.

        Schumacher ran into the back of Coulthard. Coulthard had slowed to let Schumacher pass, but he stayed on the racing line and in the spray Schumacher didn’t see him.

        Careless driving from Coulthard but not malicious.

        1. Tommy and SteveP, thank you both for reminding me what the incident was. Yes, now I recall how bad visibility was. I agree there was nothing at all malicious in what DC did, it was just a bit clumsy, and in the heat of the moment MS saw red, (but not the red of DC’s rear light apparently). I suppose it’s no different from most tailend crashes you see on the roads. Some drivers can shrug and say “no-one was hurt and it’s only a tin box with a wheel at each corner” and others get one tiny scratch on their bodywork and they go ape, screaming and shouting like it’s the end of the world”.

          1. I think Michael was especially mad because he saw it as DC helping Mika win the title by slowing down in the fast lane.

      3. Wasn’t that because DC had just collided with MS? Can’t remember which way round it was, who ran into who, but I remeber MS clearly thought DC had been reckless.

        Schumacher ran into the back of DC in bad spray. MS was going way faster and despite his claims of “brake test” and “change of direction” DC had neither changed direction/line on the track nor altered speed (according to telemetry). MS was just incapable of accepting that he had cocked-up.
        I think he later accepted the facts.

      4. So….why not look WAY back, to when F1 was more sport than business…like the ’50’s.

        Stirling Moss lost the 1958 WC when he went to bat for the “unfair” disqualification of Mike Hawthorne in the GP of Portugal. Moss won the race handily in his Vanwall, but after the race found out his countryman, and chief competitor, had been disqualified, thus losing 7 points for his second place finish. Moss convinced the stewards that Hawthorne had not pushed started his car against the flow of traffic…because he had been on a side street. The protest was dropped, Mike got his 7 points and eventually won the championship over Moss by……….one point. Asked about the event many times in subsequent years, he always replied that he would do the same thing again because….it was the fair and honest thing to do….and reflected good sportsmanship.

        Can you imagine Max, or any other drivers today, taking that position?

        There is nothing Max can ever do that will change his 2021 Championship, just as there is nothing he can ever do that will remove the asterisk by that title.

    3. Hamilton tweeted out his and Button’s data after he was annoyed at what happened in qualifying. That wasn’t in his ‘best interests’.

      It has to be said it was “only” simulator data:

      “Lewis’s tweets? They were simulator comparisons – it wasn’t even real data!” Button reveals.

      Still, it was incredibly dumb, as most of the things Hamilton does and says when he’s losing.

      1. I think it made clear that McLaren at that point had become Button’s team, and it drove Hamilton away to Merc. Arguably that was the better choice for HAM, and looking at McLaren I think they bet on the wrong guy, as they spent way to much time fixing whatever issue BUT had in the 2nd half of the spring 2021, while losing sight of Hamilton racking up points, before being nowhere in 2013, but indeed @armchairexpert, it was one of those times when he clearly showed himself as being outplayed and reeling!

    4. I’ll disagree on the telemetry Hamilton tweeted– first, he was furious with the team because they’d lied to him– they tried to tell him the Hungary wing would be just as fast as Button’s Spa spec wing, because while he’d be slower in the straights, he’d be faster in the corners. But you can’t pass in most corners at Spa, especially if you can’t keep up on the straight.

      Second, multiple engineers pointed out that most of the data on the telemetry that was tweeted was already known by the other teams– the actual confidential data that would have helped other teams, was cropped out.

      A better example would be Hungary 2007.

      1. Take Hungary, wake whatever you want. It wasn’t right for Hamilton to publicly do what he did. Well, I say ‘wasn’t right’, what is ‘right’ is what ever matters to Hamilton. Like I said disagreeable people don’t ask for permission or seek approval. That’s the key trait.

    5. Totally agree. It may not look nice to us, but we’re not exactly multiple world champions (or aspiring multiple world champions for those anti Max-ers out there who feel all is rigged). I think few people realise what it takes, also in terms of personality, to be a world champion at anything.

  6. Honestly I think Max is a little bit paranoid, everyone is against me kind of mentality, he really has to learn to let go of things that happened in the past.

    We saw how he fought with Lewis almost like a continuation from last year, still being angry about his “lost” pole from Monaco many months ago and his fight with Sky.

    There’s no need to be so defensive 24/7, it’ll just make you look bitter and angry.

  7. What I find funny is that Max clearly states ‘now don’t ask me again, is that clear?’

    Sounds to me like he doesn’t intend to ever let Perez past, but the team seem to think this is now behind them

    1. “What I find funny is that Max clearly states ‘now don’t ask me again, is that clear?'”

      I heard that and thought it sounded like the boss reprimanding an employee. I know that if ever I’d spoken to any of my employers or supervisors that way, even in private, I’d have been out on my ear. I think that was the thing that surprised me the most about it. It wasn’t like when the driver blurts out “stop bothering me, leave me alone” when he is trying to concentrate, it wasn’t like when a driver complains that they’ve put him on the wrong tyres, or sent him out at the wrong time in qualifying. This was much harsher than that, a very public rebuke as if the guy in the pits had no right to question him. I fully expected something to emerge after the race, some mitigation for it, but nothing.

      1. That is partly a cultural thing. Dutchies do not adhere to hierarchy as per default. Your superiors have to earn it. Which means the superiors will be questioned just as much as the other way around. I know it is strange in the eyes of many nations but in terms of equality and inclusion it is miles ahead up the road vs the rest of the world. It does have downsides too of course, as any system has.

        1. @Mayrton No hierarchy would mean Verstappen is on an equal level with the other team members. That’s not the case here. He made it clear that he is the only one in charge, and everyone else will do as he wishes.

          1. Yes and rightfully so. Take it or leave it. Merit decides power, not hierarchy

  8. Archibald Bumfluff
    15th November 2022, 14:32

    Hamilton gave his place back to Bottas in pretty much the same situation in Hungary 2017. When it comes to his number two driver, he can be a gentleman.

    Verstappen showed he doesn’t have the same team spirit.

    1. What about Sochi 2018. Did he ever gave that win back? How many time Hamilton didn’t let Rosberg through and ruined the team’s strategy. On the other hand Rosberg let him through at Monaco 2016 and Hamilton went on to win the race. I don’t say what Verstappen did was correct but come on, it’s a little hypocritical for Hamilton fans to accuse him for that. He was never a good and easy to work with teammate.

      1. Now i ask you, how many times did Hamilton ruined Mercedes strategy? Don’t act like we weren’t around 6 years ago.

        Mercedes only issued team orders at that time when wins were at risk. Hamilton didn’t let Rosberg by but won all of those races. So how did he ruined anything?

        The only race they probably didn’t because Hamilton didn’t let Rosberg past him was Hungary 2014, when his car broke down at Q1 for the 2nd time in 2 races while Rosberg was starting at pole both times.

        Would YOU let him pass?

        1. If I was a top driver no I wouldn’t. This is what I am trying to say. Nico let him through in Monaco because he is not of the same material. This could have cost him the Championship. Drivers like Verstappen, Hamilton, Alonso or Vettel are prioritising theirselfs instead of the team, because they have a huge ego.

          1. Yep, and where did Nico started at Monaco and where did he finished?

            He had to let Hamilton go because he was dead slow that race.

            At Hungary Hamilton’s car caught fire and he started from the pit lane, made some moves that Rosberg could not do, and because of that he found himself ahead and should let him pass?

            Max wouldn’t let it either, by the way.

          2. The team should’ve been sensible on those situations. That’s why all those scenarios were broadcasted live and nobody cared.
            Completely different from now.
            Even multi 21 was better because it was only the 2nd race and everybody knew that serving Webber that win would be a waste of time.

            Horner probably loved it, but he couldn’t say it.

          3. Race drivers will be race drivers I get that.

            However, in all those Hamilton/Nico situations I dont think the championship had been decided.

            In Max’s case, what else is there to gain by refusing? Points, he just wants to stamp this championship more than it needs to be. He barely won last year and this year I just think he wants to to be greedy and “I’ll show’em”

          4. @Edvaldo There is always an excuse for the driver we are fans of, isn’t it.
            @invisiblekid I dont think he did for the extra points. Max wanted to make a point for monaco. My opinion is that he should have given the position. My problem is the hypocrisy of the other fans, when team orders are in our favour it’s ok. At least Max is being himself.

          5. @cosan
            I don’t think there are excuses for Max though, but you guys can go ahead and try. This was the most unnecesary and childish bit of stress and trouble he could put his team on after a dream season, for no reason at all.

            They can talk Perez back in full cooperation for his success but things won’t be the same again.

            And that’s all on him.

    2. “Hamilton gave his place back to Bottas in pretty much the same situation in Hungary 2017.”

      It was actually a completely different scenario in whicih Hamilton gave the position back to Bottas. Hamilton was in the thick of a championship battle with the guy that was in front of Bottas at the time, Ferrari had just came off the back of a 1-2 in the previous race and where leading the championship by 14 points. Yet Hamilton still gave up the points to Bottas knowing it could lose him the title. After the race he said he wanted to win the title the right way.

      What Verstappen did was incredibly snake-like. He had the title already won and denied his own teammate a couple of points. This is also after launching his car at Hamilton to destroy his chance of a win. This kid is entirely toxic by nature.

      1. Before the race bottas was just 22 points behind Hamilton so still in the championship fight. And the agreement was let me by and if I don’t manage to pass the Ferraris I will give the position back.

        1. I don’t know how that changes anything, if anything, that’s even worse for Hamilton since he’s giving _both_ title rivals points.

          1. But Bottas gave his position under the condition that he will get it back if Hamilton wouldn’t make any progress. That was the deal. It was nice that Hamilton kept his word.

      2. Also come on, the incident between Verstappen – Hamilton was 50-50. Lets be honest Hamilton should have let more space for Verstappen too.

        1. Not even close to 50/50.

          Verstappen braked far later than normal in order to wedge his car in at T2, he did the same strat in Monza last season.

          He quite literally stated that he ‘went for it’ despite knowing Hamilton wouldn’t move out of his way.

          1. Button and the commentators of f1tv disagree with you. He said that he knew that Hamilton wont give me the space he deserved.

          2. @cosan: stewards ruled the incident

          3. @romtrain stewards also last year didn’t give Verstappen a penalty for forcing Hamilton off the track. Do you agree with this too? Because I don’t. It should have been a penalty or they should have instracted him to give the position back. Stewards make mistakes.

          4. Cosan, I’m absolutely sure he doesn’t agree with no penalty there, saw lots of hamilton fans criticize that, so you make a good point: stewards’ ruling is gospell when it’s what the person want; stewards are dumb when it’s not what the person wants. I agree on 50-50 more or less in the recent incident.

      3. What Verstappen did was incredibly snake-like.

        Please don’t insult snakes in that way. If it was a slip of the tongue, so to speak, then you’re forgiven.

  9. I’m a Max Verstappen fan btw. I like his approach to racing and his killer instinct, though I think that he made a big mistake in Interlagos by not letting Checo through. Verstappen had nothing to gain from this situation. If he let Checo by, he wouldn’t have lost anything because he was too far to challenge for the win.

    This year, it’s been a walk in the park for RBR but Mercedes are a real threat for next year as they have unlocked their car potential. With Toto in charge, Hamilton looking for a payback and Russell as hungry as ever, they are no joke when it comes for challenging for world championships. Verstappen is going to need Checo more than ever next year. He should straightaway apologize to him and clear the beef between the two.

    1. Absolutely spot on. Nice to read an opinion that is as objective as its possible to be

      1. Thanks for your comment !

    2. Tifoso, the Mercs certainly looked impressive this weekend and seemed to have so much grip, but I think I’d hold judgement to next weekend to see if they are consistent. I hope they’ve finally got there, we always need several teams on the pace to make races interesting.

      1. AlanD,
        Once they will clear Ferrari pace wise. Toto will make the life of Horner and Verstappen a living hell. He will start to question every component on their car and complain to the FIA about it and use all his power to get whatever making them competitive banned. Mercedes got a bailout this year with the technical directive TD039 and they are back in contention.

        The front wing they brought which wasn’t legal but nevertheless tested it was brought to study the effect of the airflow and finetune the sidepod zone for next year’s car. They have been saying that their car concept is more than valid and if they got around the porpoising issue they can unlock lots of potential. I expect RBR to be benchmark again in Abu Dhabi and Brazil is just another Austria for them. Mercedes will be firing on all cylinders in the winter with Toto pushing his men to their absolute limit.

        If they will deliver a competitive car next year and with the best drivers line-up. Verstappen certainly would regret fighting Perez for a useless position.

        1. The front wing they brought which wasn’t legal but nevertheless tested

          It was never on the car.

        2. Why are you keep repeating the unfounded claim that Mercedes did something wrong, cheated, when they brought a test wing out to a race? As SteveP says, that front wing was never tested, never used on a car. They showed it to scrutineers, and sought their opinion on the legality of it. What is wrong with that? What is unusual about that? I remember that with things like the double diffuser and the F Duct, teams asked Charlie Whiting over the winter for opinions, and in both cases he said that in his opinion the devices were legal but that was only his opinion, and it required scrutineers at a race event where it was presented to them to determine the final legality.

          1. SteveP, AlanD

            My bad !

            I didn’t say Mercedes cheated. My point was that particular front wing even though wasn’t legal and Mercedes knew that in advance demonstrates that they are working to improve the airflow and finetuning their sidepods concept.

        3. @tifoso1989, thank you for clarifying. I’ve seen a lot of people trying to bash Mercedes, accusing them of cheating by taking an illegal wing, and mistakenly thought you were jumping on that bandwagon. You could be right about it being indicative of work they are doing for next year. In a different thread, someone mentioned that Merc continuing to bring upgrades late in the season indicates they may well be sticking with the skinny sidepod concept in 2023, which also makes sense. However, a contraview is that Merc brought this wing with them purely to get the stewards to rule it as an illegal design, to close off that as an area of development. i.e. if they thought shaped stiffeners were illegal and ignored it, they could turn up at next year’s race and find Red Bull had refined the concept and the FIA thought it was fine, so by presenting the wing now and getting a ruling on it, they can’t be caught on the back foot by this particular development in future.

      2. Mercedes have never had two good weekends. Anytime they’ve looked good the next race it’s been back to square one.

        I simply don’t believe this car has been “unlocked”. It’s just got lucky.

        1. The thing is though: they actually had the fastest car here, it wasn’t a lucky win, ofc I’d have liked to see verstappen and leclerc fighting at the front all race, but I believe merc would’ve still had a driver in front, this never happened before this season, I don’t even know if they won’t be fastest again in abu dhabi.

    3. Can Pérez deliver help beyond one or two races where he makes himself a roadblock, though? (As an aside: I totally agree that Verstappen missed a chance to make everyone happy here, and that he should have given the position to Pérez if only to ensure the team finishes 1st and 2nd, which they’ve never done, and which the late founder would no doubt have appreciated.)

      But back to Pérez, this year his job was to beat Leclerc to help Verstappen quickly build a gap. He did so a fair few times, but mostly due to Leclerc’s engine failures (Spain, Azerbaijan), strategy failures (Monaco, England, Hungary), races where Red Bull was far superior to Ferrari (Imola, Belgium, Mexico), and then Leclerc’s DNF in France, the dubious penalty that promoted Pérez ahead of Leclerc in Japan, and in Singapore – which is fair enough as Pérez had a good race.

      If Pérez doesn’t finish ahead of Leclerc, it’s easy enough to say Verstappen should have given him these two points, but let’s not forget all the points Pérez wasted by finishing behind Leclerc while his teammate was busy winning the most races in a single season.

      1. MichaelN,
        It’s also fair to say that Perez was more than a match for Verstappen in the early races of the season when the car was neutral. Verstappen didn’t like that neutrality and Red Bull admitted developing the car to suit Verstappen’s driving style that require a pointy precise front-end so he can attack in corner entry and still get away with having a loose and unstable rear end using his skills at the exit of the corners.

        Perez also didn’t get the priority when it comes to upgrades this season and he was driving an outdated car for several races. I believe that Verstappen still beat Perez every single day of the year but that’s not the point. Verstappen is a double world champion and he is quite experienced to know that he did an auto-goal in Interlagos. It’s not about who finishes second, it’s about giving a favour back to Perez who has been a good teammate and contributed to massively to his first title.

        Sure he can still beat Perez next year but if Perez decides to do a Webber and not help his teammate in a title fight with Ferrari and especially Mercedes in the mix next year, Verstappen has everything to lose. Remember that Verstappen’s win in Abu Dhabi was also down to Perez backing Hamilton out and closing his SC pit stop window. Perez also pushed Hamilton to the mistake in Baku that cost him at least a second place if not the win.

        1. ^^ This ^^
          and I would add that towing, moving away, pitting earlier (or late), driving an outdated car, giving parts of the car in P3 to VER, etc… in other words destroying his race in favor of VER also meant falling behind LEC and probably others. Expecting to do all that in a race and still finish ahead of Ferrari is delusional.

  10. His behaviour makes little sense until you postulate he is acting in an utterly self centered way. Everything revolves around him. Now I am not saying that is a permanent state, redemption is possible, but at the moment that’s what I see.
    His reasons for staying on the throttle in the turn 2 incident Sunday come down to “I can’t have my way so I’ll spoil his day.” He had no thought of the danger to others, just his own ego. And at the end, not swapping with Sergio, what does he care about the team getting the WCC, 1st and also 2nd in the WDC? That doesn’t directly affect him, so he did not care. “Don’t as me again” shows what he thinks of the team.
    I really hope he grows out of this before he badly hurts someone. Maybe it’s the influence of those around him, I don’t know.

    1. Yeah, I was never a fan per se, but I admired his performances and didn’t mind when he was on pole or won. Now, it will be irritating to see him do either. He seems to like esports more than F1. Maybe he should do that full time.

    2. An annoying thing is also he said he would help perez if it ends up his help for 2nd is needed in the last race, BUT that can’t realistically happen, cause if they end in the points, whoever finishes ahead of perez and leclerc gets 2nd in the championship. It’s not like verstappen can take out leclerc, so basically it’s not gonna happen that he helps perez this year.

  11. Max is a great champion but, for me, his self-centered and persistently abrasive nature is nearly impossible to support at this point.

    These are sportsman and not our personal friends but it’s really easy to appreciate the public personas of nearly all the drivers on the grid -Max is a noteworthy exception.

    Sorry to bring the negativity, everyone. I was disgusted with his radio message.

    1. I was grasping for something and then you put into words perfectly. Couldn’t agree more.

    2. He’s a great driver and twice champion but I don’t see him as a great champion.

  12. I highly doubt Checo would’ve crashed deliberately in Monaco Q3.
    What would he gain by doing so anyway, given the crash-gate scandal & its implications, not to mention he guaranteed a Ferrari front row?
    He merely returned to full throttle too quickly, which can happen to any driver when pushing on the absolute limit.
    Max shouldn’t have paid back for something that happened nearly half a year ago.

    1. Not to mention that putting his own car in the wall comes with a very high risk of gearbox/engine damage that would result in grid penalties.

      1. Very much agree with both of you. It never occured to me that Perez had done that deliberately, so when people had been writing that Max was holding a grudge over Monaco, I’ve been wondering what on earth they could be talking about. I do think there is a problem with the qualifying format in which a driver who stops out on track and causes a red flag can ruin the fast laps of other drivers and end up ahead of them as a result. I think, at a minimum, there ought to be some sort of clause such as “If you cause a red flag by breaking down on track, or by crashing with no other car involved, then you automatically lose all your times in that session”. I can see that would be a problem with some marshalls who seem to want to red flag a race at the slightest opportunity, but I think we need something like that.

        But then we get onto the other controversial situation where, say, LH sets the fastest time but it looks about to be beaten, but GR breaks down in the middle of a corner, ruins everyone else’s laps, so although it doesn’t help GR, it definitley helps his team mate. If F1 genuinely is a team sport then there is an argument for saying that if one car is stuffing up the qualifying for everyone else, both of the team’s cars should lose their fastest laps.

        1. On the other hand it is the perils of qualifying. A driver can choose to wait to try and be last knowing the pitfalls and accept the jeopardy or go early to make sure of getting the lap in.

  13. How would we know?

  14. Verstappen is probably the most irrascible great talent ever.
    It makes little sense? It doesn’t matter, he doesn’t care. He will not accept it until the end.
    And he can massacre Perez now, but will be utterly disappointed if Perez doesn’t work for his success again next year if needed.

    1. Max is a very unforgiving person.
      If you play me a trick, I will double down on you whenever it suits me, is how he operates.
      He will not forget what Checo said after the race in Brasil about his character.
      There are persistent rumors something happened in Mexico too, that really pushed Max over the edge in Brasil.
      So I expect he will be very motivated to thrash him next year even more.
      Is it a wise thing to alienate yourself from your teammate? Probably not.
      But I reckon this is more an issue for Checo then for Max.

    2. I dont think Perez has any added value to the team and certainly not for the viewers who would rather see a competitive guy in such a good car. Maybe Max feels the same. In 2021 only the last race we saw Perez do some minor battling with Lewis. Before that he was utterly useless and Max was fighting two mercs alone. If RB doesnt give instructions to Perez to let Max by, he will just simply overtake him. It does never make sense to let the slower car overtake the faster, so the Brasil thing was against all the values we watch racing for. Perez may be a nice bloke but so is my neighbor. And what are we talking about? Second place in the standings. I have never heard that was a thing.

      1. This is WRONG in so many ways that I think you have the memory of a fish.

        Turkey 2021 – Perez fought wheel to wheel with Hamilton, something that Max cannot do without crashing, BTW Perez passed Lecrec on the track for podium finish
        Azerbaiyan 2021 (Team even held back Checo on Pits on purpose to let Max pass on track, Checo could’ve left pits and exit ahead of Max)
        heck, even Brazil 2021 fighting with Hamiton allowing Max to finish on podium
        And yes Abu Dhabi – no need to elaborate here.

        look it up, check the battles Checo fought with Hamilton while helping Max, but go ahead, keep hating and rolling just don’t trip again.

        BTW it is RBR who wants to finish 1-2 in the WDC for the first time in their history. So, yeah, it is “a thing” for RBR who gave the orders to MAX for that reason.

  15. Like everyone else I don’t think this reflects well on Max. But for me this is a test of Horner’s leadership. Vettel ignored his orders and now Max. If Horner is any kind of leader he’d sit Max down, explain that disobeying a direct order is not permitted and keep him out of the last race. And yes that would/could increase the risk that Max may leave, but just about every driver who has been very successful in F1 has changed teams, so living in fear of Max leaving would be pointless.

    1. Alonso would massacre Max if FA was in the RBR and Max was in any other car on the grid. And that would be a very profitable story.

      1. As things went this year, this is certainly realistic.

    2. As you allude to @velocityboy, we already know from the multi21 situation what kind of leader Horner is, I think.

      A slight difference might be that Mateschitz isn’t there now, so perhaps dr. Marko’s influence has also changed with that, but to me it has always appeared as if Horner is the manager, and he certainly has put together a good team of people, but he’s not the one with power to decide on his own, that used to be with dr. Marko when it’s about drivers, and probably still is. Now, I do expect dr. Marko to talk w Verstappen about this, but I don’t know that he actually had much influence into his mind any more (look also at how Vettel wasn’t changed after?).

      1. Luckily Marko has been around long enough to know how to handle this. I think he is far more realistic than 90% of people on this forum. Exceptional performance always comes with a price. They made their choice. They know what they have. This is absolutely not a thing within the team. And if Perez is unhappy, he is more than welcome to leave RedBull.

  16. Quote: I gave my reasons and I stand by it. Sounds pretty clear to me. Max probably doesn’t care. Take everything, give nothing. I like it (from a racing point of view) socially it is not so nice I think. But F1 is not for the fainthearted.

    1. @pietkoster It’s not for the fainthearted, but it definitely is one for thin-skinned people, who boycott the media after a perceived slight and hold grudges for months.

    2. @pietkoster Verstappen has nothing to win here. He can keep his principles when the championship is wide open, but with the WDC and WCC already decided, there is only one thing for the team to do and that is secure a double in the driver’s championship (which they’ve never done before). This would be cool for the team, for everyone at the factory, for the owners, and a great way to honour the late founder as well. Point being, Verstappen is just one of hundreds of people wearing a Red Bull shirt. It’s not just about him and Pérez. Besides, “giving” Pérez the 2nd place he couldn’t win on his own (despite the Red Bull car’s pace) looks good on Verstappen – not bad. In fact, it’s pretty bad that Pérez so far hasn’t been able to do this on his own.

      1. You’re not wrong, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Alonso turned out to be right. Max knows he’s had a dominant car most of the season, especially when Ferrari spent half the season sabotaging themselves. However, the car would look much less dominant in the history books if Perez finished 3rd, which would make his own achievements look better…

        I’m not saying that’s why he did it, just that I wouldn’t be surprised. Personally, I think it’s more likely that either Max is holding a grudge for some perceived slight, or is just a selfish person who refuses to help anyone but himself.

        1. i wouldn’t doubt at all that if he could wish, he would ask for Charles to finish 2nd.

          Alonso said those things and even if it was just a bunch of crap, they’re all aware of it, Hamilton even reacted to it.

          Fortunately people aren’t dumb enough to think that a title like Senna’s 1988 is worth less just because the runner up was his team mate.

      2. I do think you’re quick to forget all the times Perez races have been compromised with him being a guinea pig for tyre strategy for Verstappen or when he’s be used to force earlier pitstops through threat of undercut by pitting him early. That’s on top of everytime he’s moved over to let Verstappen through too. For 99% of races he has always been given the worst strategy to maximise the result for Verstappen.

        1. That is how it worked between Lewis and Valtteri. Perez has given very little of that this season and zero last season, simply by not being good enough. RedBull needs to replace Perez asap.

          1. If Perez had done half the job he was supposed to do in 2021 there would have never been an equal on points situation going to Abu Dhabi.

          2. Delusional! again… memory of a fish. You clearly have an agenda vs Perez and that’s OK if it is your preference, but at least try using valid arguments and facts.

          3. zero last season

            That’s hilarious!

  17. I saw three incidents of pure class during that race weekend which starkly contrast to Max’s behaviour:
    1. Vettel’s single-word reaction to Stroll running him off the road: “OK…”. Nuff said, no rant, just leave it.
    2. Checo: “he showed who he really is”. Nuff said… and extremely true. People who are using whataboutism to explain away Max’s behaviour are happily in the minority
    3. Lewis congratulating George for a win he desparately wanted for himself (and would have taken at the first opportunity).
    That is the difference between class and crass. Max’s talents are undeniable, but there is a but to do something so counter to his own self-interest isn’t even something a sociopath would do. It’s bone-headed.
    And btw, for the whatabouters: Vettel apologized to Weber after “multi-21”; Schmacher raised Barichello hand on the podium after passing him on the last lap and Alonzo paid tribute to Massa after “Felipe, Fernando is faster than you”. Even if you’re unconvinced that they would act differently were the situation repeated, they made a show of humility.

  18. All the emasculated men and women, coming from watching DtS: this is how F1 used to be and it was glorious! Fearless drivers, overtaking based solely on skills, racing in full wet conditions, no crying on team radio or blabbering on social media. Max is exactly that kind of driver and really only one worth cheering for. You can seethe about his based power move on the internet, but he doesn’t care what you think. He won’t be punished in any way and there’s nothing you can do about it haha.

    1. Just for you to know : after reading you name i didn’t bother reading the rest.

      1. Yes! Me too. As soon as I see any reply from this so called expert I skip to the next comment.

    2. F1’s actually full of examples like Stirling Moss vouching for his rival Mike Hawthorn at the 1958 Portuguese GP, making sure he didn’t get disqualified and ultimately missing out on that year’s title by just one point because he valued the integrity of the sport above his own desire to win.

      But sure, your toxic masculinity pep talk is cute too.

      1. Keith C (not that one)
        15th November 2022, 17:51

        “Expert” has generated many posts here contradicting that term.

        1. “Expert” has generated many posts here contradicting that term.

          As some said recently, and I’ve used for years at work:
          ex = has-been, spurt = drip under pressure

    3. I think the point you’ve actually made is that for the vast majority of F1s history, radio comms weren’t broadcast/didn’t exist and social media didn’t exist. If they did, I think we’d all have completely different perspectives. Perhaps we’d all think of Graham Hill as a whiner and Jim Clark as an entitled so and so for example. I wouldn’t call Max’s behaviour a power move but I agree with your last point. Nothing will come of this and Max will carry on his merry way.

      1. Great point.

        And they really were risking their life on every lap back then too. I know that’s OT, but seeing how some of the younger drivers react to having to drive in intermediate conditions or acting like a recovery truck being on the side of the track is the most dangerous thing ever when they used to keep racing while that was going on extremely often for more than 40 years and not a single driver died, until a combination of reckless driving under VSC and just lotto odds bad luck, killed Bianchi.

        More F1 marshals have been killed since the 1980s than driver with none of them due to a driver crashing into them while recovering a vehicle.

    4. The only thing I liked about your comment is the full wet weather racing, I miss it! Oh, and true that drivers complained less back then.

    5. “Fearless drivers, overtaking based solely on skills” … – does not apply to Max particularly on “solely on skills”. Checo has helped him at least 8 times across 2 years, and that contributes to at least a quarter of Max’s total points. His so called “skills” have been massively assisted by Checo, Masi, super car advantages resulted from overspent, and all of RB behind him.

      “racing in full wet conditions” …- not exclusively Max’s domain. At least 2 others have more frequent & proven track records on wet and extreme weather conditions.

      …”no crying on team radio or blabbering on social media”. – Does not apply to Max. He did cry a lot on radio to his team, some were angry disrespectful outbursts to his engineers, others were demands.

      “…he doesn’t care what you think.” – He does. He was very upset, so upset (as per Christian Horner, who knows Max better than you, about Ted’s comments), that the whole RB was compelled to boycott Sky Sports too. He is a super fragile, sensitive soul and that jarred with your claim of “fearless driver”.

      “…You can seethe about his based power move on the internet, …” – the use of “internet” here sounds pedestrian, making your claim that he does not blabber on social media doubtful.

      “Max is exactly that kind of driver and really only one worth cheering for.” – If he is the only one for you, what can others say? That should shield you from these harsh realities. Poor, poor you.

      “He won’t be punished in any way and there’s nothing you can do about it haha.” – As Checco said “it shows who he really is. Listen to how non-committal Horner was re Max helping Checo in Abu Dhabi. FIA is too weak.

  19. It’s interesting how short sighted drivers can look sometimes. Max is a great driver, but one only has to look at what happened to Alonso’s career to realise that being the best on the grid doesn’t guarantee a future when you regularly poison the well. Maybe max thinks he’s invincible and won’t ever run into that situation.

    I wonder if maybe he’s confusing his popularity in Holland with his popularity in the much smaller population of people in the paddock he may have to work with in the future. It’s not just drivers. If engineers and staff know that they might end up on “the wrong side of the garage”, that changes a lot. A great driver in a crap car or in a team who constantly makes mistakes doesn’t get to win races, championships, or break records.

    I know which end of the operation I think is most valuable… Does he?

  20. It’s been pretty clear for a few years now he acts like an entitled spoilt child, Red Bull will not do anything to rein him in so his behaviour will continue. Sooner or later he’ll run out of allies on the grid. Of course it’ll be everyone else’s fault by then in his eyes. I wouldn’t be doing him any favours in the future though if I was Perez.

    1. Where would you draw the line between not doing vers any favours and being fired?

      1. Well I don’t think he will defend as hard against rival teams for Verstappen’s benefit in future. I

  21. People trying to make this about Hamilton or Schui or low IQ.

    The crux of the situation is Pererz was fundamental to Max winning two championships, I dont see how anyone can refute this. He is a dream no 2 driver.

    Max having won the championship and in his own words “with nothing to lose” in this race couldn’t even help his team mate out regardless of whatever nonsense he has construed in his head, it is indefensible.

  22. mark from Toronto
    15th November 2022, 18:37

    It will be funny f Max is ahead of Checo in Abu Dhabi and the team intentionally flubs his pit stop to ensure Checo gets ahead. It will be a good message to send Max. The whole Checo crashing in Monaco is BS. FIA would have looked at the telemetry and DQed him if it looked obvious, and it would have.

    1. @Mark, I think you’re on to something. If Red Bull really wanted to send a message, they would add a five or ten second penalty to his pit stop… but regardless of whether he was ahead of Checo or not. That’s how you:
      a) Maintain order and respect in your team and;
      b) Apologize to the FANS for this horrid display from a team member.

      Do I expect this: not a chance.

      1. It’s gonna upset verstappen, it’s the same as threatening to fire him if he doesn’t let perez pass, they didn’t because they’re afraid to lose him.

        1. I would go even further an advise RB to be careful with this topic. They have let him down for the majority of his career with them. Lets not forget it took them years and years to finally build a car capable of winning races.

    2. First of all, what Max did at Interlagos was very strange and silly and unnecessary.
      But, looking at Perez incident att Monaco… That is some really strange stuff dude! Surely one can’t just shrug that one off. We need to remove that incident from this context and look at it properly because crashing intentionally can’t be shrugged off with ”Max blablbla childish”.
      If you know anything about driving, this definitely look strange. That’s not a mistake.

  23. Unfortunately Red Bull have shown several times in the past decade that there is no consequence for the driver who petulantly ignores a team order.

  24. From here on Perez should fight Max for position if Max happens to be behind him. Perez knows how to make a Red Bull very wide when he wants to. If Max is so fast he should easily be able to pass him.

  25. Don’t understand why all te Max fan’s feel the need to defend him. Nor why others feel the need to condemn his behaviour. I think he shot himself in the foot twice that sunday and it will backfire. But he makes his own decissions we don’t know why because they won’t tell what was going on. Monaco is pure speculation and largely based on a clown dutch reporter. Probably Max will learn from this the hard way.

  26. This is a great summary of the whole situation! I get an overwhelming sense of outrage from the majority of comments about this but I think the take home message for me is “Verstappen’s readiness to disobey an instruction from his team should surprise no one.”

    Sucks to be Max right now but it’s hardly the end of the world.

  27. Very impressed by the more mature comments in this thread, less name-calling and outrage!
    As Max fan I also feel he was wrong, but in the end hopefully it will be resolved and lets hope for more battles and wins.
    This year George Russell has pleasantly surprised me, he is not only fast, but determined and consistent. Where Lando and Charles are still a bit too inconsistent, and (in my opinion) too quick to put blame on themselves (some justified), they both need to be more ruthless and assertive in their driving. George seems to be a bit in the mold of Max, he has a tough streak, I think Lewis is going to notice this more and more.
    Just imagine Internet was around during the time of Senna or Schumacher, they would be savaged on it, we tend to forget a lot of champions were also merciless and on the edge.

    1. Yes, true, could be because some of the anti-hamilton are now busy criticising verstappen’s move, this doesn’t upset the hamilton fans, and hence less hostility.

  28. Of course it makes sense. Max is a brilliant driver, but it also an immature self-entitled man-baby and the Red Bull team have fostered that attitude by playing the hard done-by put-upon rebels leaving him to think he can do no wrong. They clearly deserve each other.

  29. Have to disagree with the title: Max’s defiance of his own team makes perfect sense. He knows they’ll do nothing. If he doesn’t want to give back a place, he never has to. The entire team has been built around him since his arrival. What he did was blow away the pretence that there is any kind of equal treatment or reciprocation happening. Perez has to cede position. If he declines, Max will push past anyhow or pester Red Bull on the radio until he does. If the situation worsens, Perez is demoted and switched with another Red Bull driver. No mystery.
    What is Perez going to do about it? He’s the one who has been under the illusion that helping Max was a favour when it was simply the job he was brought in to do. Assist Max but stay out of his way.
    Red Bull play ugly to win. And have done so the last two seasons. Personally I don’t think they even try to hide how unpleasant they are, they really don’t care. It’s winning that matters to them.

    1. Well said.

    2. Yes, not nice, but if it weren’t for red bull there would only be a team winning for the last decade.

      1. With equal antics by the way…the fact this surprises people shows how much they have been led on by the media and prefab pr talk in interviews. Somehow the idea unfolded that these 20 guys are not utterly ruthless competitive animals. While history shows nothing but this trait amongst world champions.

      2. @esploratore1 I should add that what I most dislike is the lack of competition in the number 2 slot. And the complete BS surrounding Perez’s actual role that accompanies it. Before someone says ‘Bottas’, I also felt the same with Mercedes and lobbied for Russell to be hired by the team some years back (I do think Rosberg was a good enough level to merit his place, same as, say, Ricciardo at Red Bull when Max joined). My preference is for two top drivers in the top teams precisely because if one team runs away with the championship, producing a faster car, we at least aren’t left with the dreary competition seen for most of this year. Mercedes, Ferrari, McLaren, they all have fairly balanced lineups. Red Bull is the clear standout in having a lower level driver as team mate to Max.

  30. Verstappen to Sky. Not talking to you lot because you think RBR stole a title.

    Also Verstappen to Sky: RBR cheated in a race, prolly.

  31. Total proof this forum is occupied with dts viewers. From f1fanatic to racefans to soap lovers. Liberty has won.

  32. Reading through the comments of the last articles and I am just stunned about the amount of Max hate I’ve seen.
    Yes it seems like he made a mistake by holding on to his position in an otherwise flawless season.
    I also think there is nothing Max can do in the future to gain at least some respect from most of the commenters over here. Whether it’s leading a championship ahead with 139 points or winning future championships.

    1. No one denies Max can drive.

      The issue here is with attitude. It’s not hate. It’s justified criticism.

      1. Exactly.
        The issue is not his ability. This guy is supposed to be a leader.

        He has already raced more GPs than most drivers, he’s not a newbie anymore, yet can’t help himself acting like a self centered jerk because he’s too good to listen to team orders that are not about making him look better.

    2. @bartvander He’s respected as a driver. It’s up to Perez and Red Bull what they think of his attitude in relation to the team. He was putting the team in its place – ‘I told you not to ask me to do that again’ is the words of someone who believes they are in total command, everyone else is his subordinate. Is he right? Actually, maybe. In effect.
      The other question is whether he’s likeable – as far as any public figure can be. The answer to that – from me – is no. He seems one-dimensional, callow and unpleasant compared to contemporaries like, say, Leclerc or Norris. He doesn’t have much to say about anything, doesn’t seem to think about the world beyond his own racing and how much adulation he gets for it. Is he great racing driver? Yes. With on-track flaws? Yes too, but I accept that the same applies to many other great drivers. The fact is the team has to deal with Max the racing driver and Max the day-to-day colleague (his personality) but speculating on what he’s like is a valid part of accompanying Formula 1 in general as it influences what happens on track, directly or indirectly. I don’t care about his personal life.

  33. Andy (@andyfromsandy)
    16th November 2022, 9:17

    ORBR would like us all to think they have sorted out the problem internally but now it will possibly be Perez who harbours a grudge and maybe Verstappen will continue to as well for not winning in Monaco, if that is the reason.

  34. John Ballantyne
    16th November 2022, 10:21

    He did it in front of the world’s press, he can’t undo it. That’s it.

  35. To quote Indiana Jones:

    He chose… poorly.

  36. What a POS.

    I really want to like him. He has an undeniable innate talent. But he is such a disgusting person – and his dad as well.

  37. Do the FIA now take a look at the Monaco crash?

  38. In isolation, I have no problem at all with Max refusing to give his position to Checo. I dislike TO and artificial switches of position.

    Looking at the whole picture is a lot different. Max had been given the position in order to try and catch Fernando. He couldn’t and it was only fair to give it back. Maybe he would have overtaken Checo without TO but we’ll never know. Taking advantage of TO which favor you without any qualms and refuse them when they don’t does not look good on him. Also, Max did himself no favors in his declarations about the crash (which everybody and their uncle are misquoting in the sense that he deliberately caused a crash. He never said that, but anyway a really unfortunate statement)

  39. Max knows what you did last summer! 😂 In any case, an entirely foolish decision by Max on this occasion which makes him look bad and puts the team achieving a perfect season at risk (and I say that as someone who likes the guy). The only benefit I can think is that maybe it will make Max’s average points scored per a race stat slightly better, but no one cares about that

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