Second still possible for Ferrari “if we do a perfect job” – Sainz

19 comments on “Second still possible for Ferrari “if we do a perfect job” – Sainz”

1. 

   Nick T.
   13th September 2023, 0:06

   No one would even be close to AM for second if they had two Alonsos. Another way to tally the value he adds to that team.
   1. 

      Nick T.
      13th September 2023, 0:08

      BTW, the odds of the Ferrari team doing a “perfect job” for a single race let alone the rest of the season are comical. No exaggeration, I’d rather have Haas in charge of strategy and pit stops.
      1. 

         BasCB (@bascb)
         13th September 2023, 8:07

         Yeah, Ferrari and doing a perfect job seem more or less antitethic.
2. 

   PeterG
   13th September 2023, 1:00

   In relation to COTD.

   The thing with Indycar points system for me is that I can’t tell you who had how many, I can’t tell you who gets what for what position, I can’t tell you who got what bonus points or how the system works. It just ends up been something I don’t pay attention to outside of hearing who#s leading the standings on the broadcast.

   It just feels so convoluted and meaningless and nobody i know that watches Indycar ends up really paying any attention to the points system or who’s where in the standings which is the complete opposite of how we are with F1.

   Points should be earned and feel special and not simply handed out for turning up.
   1. 

      Jay
      13th September 2023, 1:38

      This is a really great point. I like the current system of points to the top 10 for F1.

      But on the flip side, I watch Motogp and they pay points to the top 15. I don’t know the exact point allocation but I watch the riders around position 15. Sometimes riders will have a terrible first lap, off-track or even remount after a minor crash, and fight back to P15 or greater. So maybe there is a compromise?
      1. 

         MichaelV12 (@michaelv12)
         14th September 2023, 10:19

         Reliability has increased a lot in later years so maybe points down to P15 would be warranted these days. Could have something like this, hope I calculated right:

         36 – 24 – 20 – 15 – 12 – 10 – 9 – 8 – 7 – 6 – 5 – 4 – 3 – 2 – 1

         162 points in total per GP
         P1-P3 share 80 points
         P4-15 share the remaining 82 points

         4th gets about 40 percent of a win
         5th gets half points of second place
         6th gets half points of third place
         Then it drops off down to P15
   2. 

      S
      13th September 2023, 5:00

      I completely disagree. Again.
      Points are completely meaningless in a per-event context, and Indycar’s systems (sporting, technical and points-wise) show that they are clearly more event-focused than championship focused.
      That’s exactly what I prefer, and is conversely one of the things that really drags F1 down. Too much focus on the championship, and not enough on good individual races each and every time.

      F1’s points system is extremely limited, to the extent of it being almost completely useless. It is often really unrepresentative of actual performance due to the lack of points awarded for lower positions and the enormous weighting for the first few positions. Those lower positions (actual results) are still counted anyway for the championship order in case of a draw and for non-points winners, so why not just have a points system that reflects that at first glance, all the time?

      As noted above, we often see (although a lot more in the recent past) where cars would retire simply because they were unlikely to score points anymore in that race. And also used to get ‘free’ new parts as an incentive for doing so…
      Madness.

      It’s unfortunate that you haven’t put in the time or effort to understand Indycar’s points system, but then, as referenced above, that should focus you more on the actual event occurring in front of you rather than the championship.
      Leave that for after the results are finalised.

      And I don’t agree at all that points should be special. They should be a clear and accurate representation of the season’s results (of all competitors and finishing positions) and nothing more.
      Perhaps you’d prefer a completely different type of sporting series that awards only medals to the top 3 instead?
      1. 

         drmouse (@drmouse)
         13th September 2023, 17:06

         And I don’t agree at all that points should be special. They should be a clear and accurate representation of the season’s results (of all competitors and finishing positions) and nothing more.

         Agreed. They are purely supposed to be a way to rank the performances over the course of a season.

         I understand the reasoning behind the inflated value of the top positions: They want to stop drivers “settling” for second place when they could push for a win. They want to make the battle at the front more exciting. It doesn’t always work: When we have enough dominance, the gap just increases more quickly. However, if two drivers are close at the front, there is far more incentive to push for a win than there would be if the points were closer.

         For me, though, I do think we should be giving points to all finishers. Someone who finishes 11th in every race has done a better job than someone who finished 15th-18th in all but one lucky 10th place finish, but that’s not what the points system we have would say. I think I’d just bump all the current points up by 10, then fill 11th-20th in with 10-1 points, but only if they take the chequered flag.

         I’d then give the same points for the sprints, but in a separate “table”, and the results of that would count as one race for the championships.
         1. 

            Alesici
            14th September 2023, 0:05

            Thanks for the COTD, and for the above support. I’m delighted!

            Though I was disappointed the last line of my comment was cut out in the COTD quote above. Slightly updated, it read:
            “So far this year F1’s points system has given Red Bull 20,000% more points than Alpha Tauri even though the latter is literally 1.75% slower than the former.”
            Maybe they thought I was being hyperbolic. But these are statistical facts.

            Another illustration of the system’s absurdity was the popularity a few years back of the Formula 1.5 website’s championship standings which were calculated by ignoring the existence of the top 3 teams. The site’s standings allowed us to actually track how well the closely bunched lower teams were comparing, because F1’s system was so patently unable to do so representatively.
   3. 

      Alan Dove
      13th September 2023, 9:09

      This is the perennial problem with IndyCar. There’s constant claims about how it’s so much better than F1, but when you actually follow behaviors and not those that talk about the opposite is true for the most part.

      The IndyCar points system is convoluted and confusing. As you say it’s hard to follow. There’s so many ‘different winners’ in IndyCar when really that means no victory feels particularly special. The races are ‘chaotic and exciting’ but in reality they are borderline random with a lucky FCY can swap the order about. The cars are ‘super close’ really means there’s nothing to talk about or analyse between race weekends because it’s a spec chassis.

      the lack of power steering however is something IndyCar does better than F1. The onboards, in isolation, are more engrossing.
3. 

   Todfod (@todfod)
   13th September 2023, 6:16

   “Normally we’ve been lacking against Mercedes and Red Bull in the development fight and this year I don’t feel like we have.”

   What on earth is Sainz smoking? Maybe Mercedes hasn’t had the greatest year of development, but they’ve still been better than Ferrari. In the last decade, when has Ferrari outdeveloped Mercedes or Red Bull?
   1. 

      SteveP
      13th September 2023, 7:59

      In the last decade, when has Ferrari outdeveloped Mercedes or Red Bull?

      Legally, or performance on track?
      Bear in mind that even when they’ve produced something faster in the way of machinery (often dodgy) someone else in the team – pit-crew, strategists, drivers – manages to wreck the result, so the stats are reflecting the finish (or DNF) position.
4. 

   Todfod (@todfod)
   13th September 2023, 6:20

   Someone needs to tell Zhou how to hold that PS2 remote control.
   1. 

      Unicron (@unicron2002)
      13th September 2023, 7:40

      That’s what I thought, haha! I think it’s a PS1 controller. For some reason he’s trying to pretend he’s in 1995, what with the big chunky TV. Totally failed due to the stylised nature straight out of the 2020s. What an odd photo. Makes me feel veeeery old too!
      1. 

         SteveP
         13th September 2023, 8:03

         Makes me feel veeeery old too!

         ??? The mid-90s aren’t even 30 years ago – close, but no cigar. Or was that phrase before your time? :)
5. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   13th September 2023, 6:23

   I doubt with the points gap & knowing Ferrari.

   So Zhou used non-prescription glasses, bluefilters or not, for fashion filming, playing PS1 or some other old console on a very old-looking TV.
6. 

   Dr.D
   13th September 2023, 7:22

   Yes ofcourse two good drivers can get more points than one great driver in a lesser car.
7. 

   RH
   13th September 2023, 7:40

   Singapore, Suzuka, Qatar, Austin, Mexico, Brazil, Vegas, Abu Dhabi

   I expect Ferrari to be 2nd best at Singapore, Brazil, Vegas, Mexico and AD. Their car cannot handle high speed corners that are long well. So I would expect them to go back at Qatar, Suzuka and Austin, where McLaren will likely have a qualifying edge and Mercedes a race pace edge.

   Interesting to see how this P2 battle evolves. Sainz maybe right in that if Ferrari maximizes both cars in all the upcoming races while Mercedes doesn’t, then they may get P2.

   Aston will be uncompetitive at all the high speed tracks and will likely only have Singapore where they’ll be a bit close.
8. 

   Alesici
   13th September 2023, 23:56

   The story for the Winners Circle million dollars for the top 22 cars was reported reasonably by the link provided in the article above, but I preferred the more detailed one here:
   https://eu.indystar.com/story/sports/motor/2023/09/11/indycar-andretti-autosport-devlin-defrancesco-loses-2024-leaders-circle-spot-final-lap-laguna-seca/70770743007/

   I do fear it will feed the trolls above complaining that Indycar’s rules are a bit convoluted, but to be fair, so are F1’s, and ultimately the Winners Circle competition amongst the backmarkers is not a particularly mainstream story, so its forgivable for it to be so, provided it’s as fair as possible. Which it is.

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