“You need to go more slowly”: The radio calls behind Haas’s controversial point

36 comments on ““You need to go more slowly”: The radio calls behind Haas’s controversial point”

1. 

   David
   11th March 2024, 12:30

   “Go slow” is not an unfair tactic. It’s a smart tactic.

   Thinking of a very prominent example, should Hamilton be penalised for spending the whole of Abu Dhabi 2016 on a go-slow where he was trying to put Rosberg in danger of being overtaken? Of course not. That was smart driving to maximise Lewis’s chance of the title.
   1. 

      S
      11th March 2024, 13:22

      “Go slow” is not an unfair tactic. It’s a smart tactic.

      Although it does go against the spirit of sportsmanship (which is actually addressed within the rules and the sporting code).

      should Hamilton be penalised for spending the whole of Abu Dhabi 2016 on a go-slow where he was trying to put Rosberg in danger of being overtaken? Of course not.

      An argument could certainly have been made for a penalty – with F1 being so team-oriented, Mercedes weren’t gaining or losing anything by having their two drivers behave that way, and they didn’t hamper any other competitors while they were doing it.
      In this case, it was entirely about hampering the progress of other competitors outside of Haas’ own team.

      It would be an unpopular call to penalise this behaviour – but that doesn’t mean it wouldn’t be justified.
      It’s another case of F1’s rules being just fine – until someone takes them to the extreme.
   2. 

      Mr B
      11th March 2024, 14:04

      I’m not up to speed (no pun intended) regarding the whole situation but aren’t RB complaining that Magnussen’s pass on Tsunoda and the advantage it gave him was done so by going off track? If Magnussen then held up others as a result of the off track advantage that would seem unfair.
   3. 

      Tristan
      11th March 2024, 18:05

      The issue here to me isn’t a sporting one at all. The question shouldn’t be penalty or not. The question should be how is it possible for a car to drive over a second a lap slower and stay in front? Atleast not without showcasing some epic defensive driving.

      F1 has utterly failed at its goal of generating more overtaking opportunities. This tactic should not exist in such an utterly boring fashion.
      1. 

         Jordi Casademunt (@casjo)
         11th March 2024, 19:42

         Well, Magnussen was basically losing time from the exit of turn 2 to turn 10. There aren’t any overtaking chances there (turn 4, but only if the driver ahead makes a mistake). Magnussen was pushing hard the rest of the lap, where he could be vulnerable to an overtake (having a slow exit at turn 12 opens a chance at turn 13, and after that there’s a bunch of fast corners without any real chance of slowing down without getting passed). Also Haas seemed to have a pretty fast car on the straight, which made it harder to pass Magnussen.

         Maybe a kart could pull an overtake through the part where Magnussen was slow. I doubt any full-sized racing car would open any opportunity without a huge mistake by the driver ahead. The following drivers just weren’t fast enough at the part of the track where overtaking was possible.
         1. 

            Tristan
            12th March 2024, 0:03

            8 turns of a track where it’s just acceptable that there’s no overtaking opportunities is not a good thing.
            1. 

               S
               12th March 2024, 2:54

               That’s extremely common in all modern car racing – not just in F1.
               The understanding of tyre performance and car setup/behaviour through data collection and analysis has progressed such that it’s really not that hard to get very close to the limit and stay there at all times.
   4. 

      Nick T.
      11th March 2024, 23:52

      Precisely. This is the most standard type of team play. Anyone remember how slow the McLaren had Norris go in Monaco a few years ago to let Sainz vault up the order? And, it’s the other teams’ fault if they cannot pass him while he’s going intentionally slow.
   5. 

      Frans
      12th March 2024, 4:31

      It is an un-sportsman tactic when the driver is willing to break the rule (overtaking outside of the track) to keep ahead. Basically he had nothing to lose, thus willing to break the rules. It is basically a step behind what Renault did at Singapore. It is one thing to actually trying to hold other cars without penalty and another thing to basically become disposable.
      I’m not blaming Haas. The rules make it possible. What need to be done is actually forcing any time penalty to happen on the track and need to be served within a certain laps, like 4 or 5 laps. Yes, infringement happening at the end can still resulted in added time, but I doubt it would matter since you probably can’t make 5s gap within 5 laps unless the car actually fast enough to overtake without having to go off the track. The issue of forcing the penalty to be taken is the fact that 5s is not exactly 5s because you can only serve it during pitstop thus forcing it actually make any time punishment more severe than a drive-thru.
      1. 

         jenc (@jens)
         12th March 2024, 11:01

         It is no where near what Renault did in Singapore. Actually MAG could just as well have avoided both penalties, had he been a WDC or in a front running team. They do not get penalised for leaving the track in overtakes…

         https://youtu.be/hxwo8aP6T0c?t=157 Exicting racing at Silverstone last year. BUT, both leclerc and Perez went outside racing lines.

         https://youtu.be/wBaQ6QmxtV8?t=90 Max overtakes but carry too much speed and go over the line in the next corner. Just like Magnussen

         https://youtu.be/fTbB4tgWSs4?t=287 Ferraris are allowed to overtake outside the track also.

         And there are many more similar situations. And for the first penalty, even Albon said to Sky afterwards it was a racing incident. He could have backed off. Most overtakes in F1 wil leave the guy on the outside “hanging” when they run out of track space, and they back off.
2. 

   BasCB (@bascb)
   11th March 2024, 12:36

   Interesting to see. And yeah, Magnussen did save that one a bit by his huge effort to help Hulk get out in the points ahead of him. Although, he IS certainly correct that he should think a bit more about the larger picture and the goal of racing – to finish and take home points, podiums and wins, not to ALWAYS keep in front, whatever the cost and rack up penalties.

   BTW did the stewards give more insight into why they gave Magnussen a 10 second penalty instead of the by now “normal” 5 seconds? Is that a general thing where they feel they should look more at who they punish (yeah, KMag does have boatloads of precedent against him there) and what the results were on track (not sure the hurt to Albon’s race was huge, although arguably afther that hit he never got a chance to go forward anymore). Even more so with that second penalty? Did they explain why that would warrent a 10 second penalty? Did the stewards feel there might be something to the RB claim they were doing it on purpose to further this delay strategy??
   1. 

      Red Andy (@red-andy)
      11th March 2024, 12:53

      It wouldn’t surprise me to learn that the stewards now treat 10 seconds as the “default” penalty both for causing a collision with another driver and for leaving the track and gaining an advantage – last year we saw some high-profile examples of drivers tactically taking 5s penalties because they would gain more by cheating than they would lose in the penalty. But obviously there is more to be done, as the very lenient 5s penalty for Perez after his dangerous pit manoeuvre shows.
   2. 

      MacLeod (@macleod)
      11th March 2024, 13:31

      All penaulties which were 5 seconds are now 10 seconds for gaining a advance causing a collision from 2024 on.
   3. 

      Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
      11th March 2024, 18:04

      @bascb Sky UK said in commentary that 10 seconds was determined as the new default for gaining an advantage over the winter, because the 5-second penalty was so often overcome during races. The collision penalty has been adjustable due to circumstances for decades.
      1. 

         BasCB (@bascb)
         11th March 2024, 18:53

         Yes, that penalty has certainly been adjustable in theory. But apart from a few cases where there was a far more serious result, the stewards have rarely USED their freedom to do so.

         I thought the idea was that they would have more leeway in using either 5 or more time as a penalty based on a judgement of how severe it is. Giving 10 seconds automatically, even when even 5 in some circumstances would result in a somewhat overblown result seems backwards.

         Fact remains that while it’s nice that Sky reported this, it would be FAR more preferable if these kind of things were PUBLISHED in an easily available form, especially WITH the full reasoning of the stewards for ALL incidents.
3. 

   mzs16 (@mzs16)
   11th March 2024, 13:52

   Great tactics from Haas with perfect execution, one of the highlights of an otherwise dull race. Hats off to them!
   Permane’s whinging is just sour grapes, I hope it will be brushed off by whomever he talks to.
   1. 

      rprp
      11th March 2024, 16:47

      I think Permane is referring to the off track advantage that Magnussen gained. There’s nothing stopping somebody in his position from just cutting corners constantly (at least until a black and white flag is given) to retain position to help a team mate.

      Rewind back to Abu Dhabi 2021. Perez performed heroics to hold Hamilton up. That was superb driving from Perez. Now if he’d cut corners to stay in front, that would’ve been wrong. That’s the issue here.

      My view is that gaining an advantage off track should be a 10 second penalty and black and white flag for driving standards, then a black flag for a repeat.
      1. 

         bosyber (@bosyber)
         11th March 2024, 17:53

         Yeah, just like Perez didn’t in fact have any real penalty from his 5s, the time penalties rarely do work effectively to stop people making infractions, which does need looking at, but in this case, as the rules currently are, Magnussen just did a solid job with what he had to help his team get a point.
         1. 

            Frans
            12th March 2024, 4:46

            The biggest difference is that with Perez, it was probably an honest mistake as in they didn’t gain anything by having that 5s penalty. With Magnussen, it was deliberate with the pass on Tsunoda. I’m not blaming Haas for doing it, but I wouldn’t call what Magnussen did as something great which a lot of people think Mag did a great job. When you’re doing your job and you ended up needing to achieve it by breaking the rule, I don’t qualify that as great. Yes, Magnussen only did it once, but it does send a message that he would do anything to keep ahead.
            If I make the rule, if the cars are close, they should force them to switch place or it would be disqualified. Only apply the time penalty if it is impossible to switch (other car in between) or the other car is actually driving away fast (which would imply that the car probably can overtake at will). Give it like between 3 to 5 laps to comply.
            1. 

               jenc (@jens)
               12th March 2024, 11:05

               It wasn’t deliberate from Magnussen. He commented afterwards, that it all happens in a flash when racing at those speeds. He didn’t knew if he was out of racing line, but expected he was told, if so. He was not told.

               The very best handling of this had been if the stewards had told Haas to tell MAG to give back the place within one lap. Then Tsunoda had not been held off for a long time. The running would not had been a slow train but actual racing.

               And F1 could do with consistency. Drivers in front of the field does not get penalised for leaving the track.

               https://youtu.be/hxwo8aP6T0c?t=157 Exicting racing at Silverstone last year. BUT, both leclerc and Perez went outside racing lines.

               https://youtu.be/wBaQ6QmxtV8?t=90 Max overtakes but carry too much speed and go over the line in the next corner. Just like Magnussen

               https://youtu.be/fTbB4tgWSs4?t=287 Ferraris are allowed to overtake outside the track also
      2. 

         Mooa42
         12th March 2024, 2:03

         Bugger these 5 or 10 sec penalties, the position should be returned, like Piastri did twice with Hamilton.

         In the past this is what was required, or they got a drive through penalty.

         I can remember a GP (but can’t remember the drivers) but for arguments sake lets assume it was Magnussen, who overtook Grosjean off track, in that process Grosjean was also overtaken by Hulkenberg legally and Magnussen had to let Hulk and Grosjean back past to redress the position.

         I think this is the correct outcome
4. 

   Frasier (@frasier)
   11th March 2024, 13:57

   Haas simply responded to the rules re penalties ruining kMags potential for a good finishing position. Smart team management.

   Perhaps F1 needs to revise the points allocation to create differentiation for the lower order teams, like a lot of other race series. Improved reliability has also played a part in creating this undesirable situation.
5. 

   Esmiz (@esmiz)
   11th March 2024, 14:07

   Things that wouldn’t have happened with a Stop&Go or a DriveThru, chapter nº12371230
   1. 

      jenc (@jens)
      12th March 2024, 11:07

      Incorrect.
      A stop& go or drivethru would convert a 10 second penalty to a 30 second penalty, and that is not the penalty.
6. 

   Suffering Williams Fan
   11th March 2024, 17:10

   I’m basically ok with teams using tactics within their own setup to try to help one driver relative to another in beating other teams. It’s not pretty, but I think it’s a legitimate tactic. What I don’t like here is that in setting up the scenario to enable this to happen, Magnussen pushed Albon into the wall and also illegally overtook Tsunoda. That should not be ok, and it’s probably worth reviewing the rules to allow the stewards to *order* a driver to give back a position.
   1. 

      Kennch
      12th March 2024, 15:57

      Magnussen didn´t get told to give back the position and he didn´t do it by himself because he was not sure he actually was crossing the track limits with all 4 wheels. He was on the curb and was busy balancing the car
7. 

   Heiden (@heidenh)
   11th March 2024, 19:20

   Nobody cared when Alonso did it in Monaco, or his own advantage.

   Nobody cared when Bottas would do it to Vettel for Hamilton’s advantage.

   Nobody cared when Barrichello did it in aid for Schumacher’s advantage.

   Nobody cared when Joe Tanto did it to Beau Brandenburg for Jimmy Bly’s advantage. ;)

   Why care now?
   1. 

      miciek (@micio)
      11th March 2024, 19:42

      Because nothing else happened in that race.
8. 

   Jim from US (@jimfromus)
   11th March 2024, 19:32

   Haas could be a little more tactical and just tell their driver to go slower because they are seeing a bit of overheating. I don’t see why they should get another penalty as they were penalized in the race for cutting the track and colliding.
9. 

   Jordi Casademunt (@casjo)
   11th March 2024, 20:01

   Some people seem to be missing the point of Permane’s complaint.

   At lap 16, Magnussen is behind Tsunoda. He’s told he has a 10s time penalty which basically ends any chance he’ll have a good finishing position. The next lap, he goes for an overtake on Tsunoda going offtrack. The team doesn’t seem to warn him or ask him to return the position, which would be the right move most of the time (and this season the default penalty is 10s, which is usually not worth the overtake).

   A few laps later, the team decides to capitalize on their track positions and ask Magnussen to go slow in order to give Hülkenberg the gap to stop for tyres and still be ahead of the pack. This isn’t an issue. This isn’t unsportsmanlike. This isn’t what Permane isn complaining about.

   Magnussen shouldn’t have been ahead of Tsunoda at that point. The overtake was illegal and he received a penalty for it. Using that track position to then slow down the drivers behind is very much the definition of unsportsmanlike behaviour. You also have to wonder whether the team was already considering this strategy when Magnussen overtook Tsunoda.

   This isn’t like any of the cases people are mentioning. This would be like a lapped car ignoring blue flags for laps in order to slow down a rival, or just weaving the entire lap just to keep someone behind even if it means a penalty. It’s good that Permane complains about it. It would be good if this led to a regulation change so drivers can actually be ordered to give up positions as a penalty.
   1. 

      Esploratore (@esploratore1)
      12th March 2024, 1:30

      Yes, it’s very questionable, it’s what happens when stewards interpret the rules by the letter and don’t spend a second to think who gains and how much from each situation.

      It’s also how you get hamilton taking out his main opponent at silverstone 2021 and a slam in the wrist 10 sec penalty which it was immediately possible to tell it was unlikely to cause him to lose even 1 position, and plenty of other penalties that we see when stewards don’t take into account the consequences of incidents.
   2. 

      Esploratore (@esploratore1)
      12th March 2024, 1:31

      slap on the wrist*
10. 

    Bob
    11th March 2024, 22:42

    So, the team that serves no purpose on the grid beyond helping another team win, including impeding other drivers by being slow to respond to blue flags, throwing away their own races to impeded drivers in competition with Max, and throwing away an entire season by taking 20 places of grid drops every race while Honda did trial and error engine development for the next year for Red Bull, wants to throw shade about team tactics? The team that had to be stopped from literally running two cars identical to Red Bull Racing is going to talk about what’s sporting.” Red Bull Car 3 and 4″ or what ever other dumb name they give Minardi remain a farce that has no place on F1.
    1. 

       Cranberry
       13th March 2024, 10:17

       “Minardi”.

       Do not sully the name of The Eternal Underdog, by implicating them in this ridiculous race of “I’ll go cry to daddy”…
11. 

    Patrick (@paeschli)
    12th March 2024, 18:21

    Second infringement should have been a stop and go.
12. 

    Cranberry
    13th March 2024, 10:15

    Strategy is nothing new in F1, this type of team building exercise should absolutely not be punished. Absolutely ridiculous behaviour from complaining teams, who can now be branded as sore losers, as if any rules were broken.

    F1 is interesting in that if a driver is willing to sacrifice his own race to benefit his teammate’s, he is free to do so. There are plenty of examples of team orders giving their drivers the same agenda to finish the race and let the teammate benefit, and the drivers choosing to ignore said agenda. “Multi-21” anyone?

    This would not be anywhere near as big of an issue if it was almost any other track. The only track more ideal, for blocking an entire field of faster cars, is perhaps Monaco.

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