Red Bull’s chief technical director Adrian Newey says his forthcoming RB17 track car produces more downforce than its bespoke tyres can cope with while cornering.
The star designer said they have solved the problem by reducing the downforce his Formula 1-inspired car generates above certain speeds. This is understood to have been achieved using active aerodynamics at the front and rear of the car, as F1 cars will use from 2026.Other manufacturers have previously added maximum speed limits to hypercars to prevent tyres failing at extreme top speeds. The Bugatti Chiron, released in 2017, is electronically limited to 240kph (261mph).
But while the Chiron produces 1,500bhp and weighs just under two tonnes, the RB17’s mass is less than half that at 900kg, while the driver has 1,200bhp available. The RB17’s top speed limit is lower, at 370kph (229mph), and Newey said they also had to take steps to protect its tyres while cornering.
“But even with those special tyres we have to start reducing your downforce above 150 miles an hour [241kph].”
“Obviously it’s total tyre [load] so it’s the weight of the car plus the aero load,” he explained. “So one of the many reasons for really focusing on trying to get the weight as low as possible was because we knew that ultimately in high speed we would be tyre-limited.”
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The same reasoning led Newey to opt for a normally-aspirated engine and ditch early plans for a hybrid drive train on the front axle.
“It started out with a V8 twin-turbo. Everybody of course wanted a normally aspirated [engine], it was how could we get a normally aspirated to give the power and the package size and the weight targets that we had set ourselves?
“That was quite a challenge, which once our powertrains group started – with opportune timing – we started to come up with solutions, working with that young group, hence the V10 normally aspirated [engine].”
Newey has a team of 140 people working on the car, of which just 50 examples will be made. Despite the extreme, F1-rivalling performance targets he has set for it, he says it will not be demanding to drive.
“We tried to come up with a car which would be accessible to somebody with relatively limited experience,” he said. “They would be able to feel the car, it would be benign, not too snappy, not too difficult to drive.
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“Then as you develop your own abilities, then the car would be adaptable and you can tune it, and you would have different tyres and different levels of downforce and so forth, so that you can grow with the car where ultimately – admittedly in the hands of a professional – it’s capable of Formula 1 lap times.
“We actually had one of our customers on the simulator the other day, who is not a professional in fact but a very good amateur driver, and he in the driving simulator would have been on pole at Silverstone by one second in the car.”
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Kris
17th August 2024, 9:58
I always read about this project and think why?
Selling 50 cars even at 5 million each just seems a lot of effort for a limited revenue. I’d love to know what the profit margins are.
Riccard
17th August 2024, 10:41
I think it’s an advertising/brand project as much as a revenue one.
F1 is funded on similar terms: worth it to raise the profile of the manufacturer (or drinks company).
Alan Dove
17th August 2024, 10:51
That’s a rather bland way of looking at life. The car exists because Newey wanted it to exist. That’s all the reason needed.
JMDan (@danmar)
18th August 2024, 17:12
I growl, therefore I am.
Coventry Climax
17th August 2024, 12:27
It’s probably irrelevant to them if they get the money that they spent on it, back by selling 50 examples.
But even so, using your price tag, that’s 50 times 5 million spent legitimately on research, education, testing and whatnot.
And then, there’s the advertisement reward it brings both Newey personally and Red Bull as well.
Probably most important is, that it’s something to keep Newey happy and at the forefront of technology, while still be of benefit to his employer. (Which, apparently, isn’t possible within the old style rules and F1 alone anymore.)
For me, the bigger questions are, wherever Newey will go, will his new employer both be be able and willing to spend comparable amounts on projects to keep Newey happy, and secondly, will it even pay off, with the ever increasing scale of BoP applied to F1?
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
17th August 2024, 13:08
Agree, this is all about Redbull branding – the fastest, most advanced, most extreme sports car in the world etc.
The other questions regarding Newey are what exactly his F1 role would be. Remember, he was only able to focus so much on the RB17 project because his F1 duties took a step down to merely consultant rather than being intimately involved on a day to day basis. His new employer might want him to focus full time on F1 and therefore not have time for ‘passion projects’ such as this. Newey might be ok with that if they give him the working conditions he wants. But also, Newey is already 65. Does he still want to put in full time hours (likely far beyond 40 hours per week), or does he want to be able to wind down at some point.
I’m sure whoever gets Newey will offer an eye-watering amount of remuneration and bonuses, but it’s likely his decision comes down more to personal factors such as location, freedom, working conditions and his own personal ambitions.
Coventry Climax
17th August 2024, 16:32
Only those with an infinite passion for what they do, get to be as good as they are.
God, I wish I could play like , is what I often hear.
Well, sure there’s talent involved, but people tend to forget that guys like Arthur Rubinstein, Yehudi Menuhin, Andres Segovia, Keith Jarrett, Chick Corea, John Mclaughlin, Michael Brecker, Eddy van Halen, Steve Vai, John Scofield, Jimi Hendrix, Stevie Ray Vaughn, Jeff Beck and all the other greats had one thing in common: Passion for what they do/did and putting in most of the hours of a day, every day, into it. Music is no different to anything else in that respect.
I expect there to be a comparable passion within Newey, and he’ll be doing it until the end.
But yes, he’s in the position to request the conditions under which he’s doing it, to change to his liking.
Nulla Pax (@nullapax)
17th August 2024, 13:55
Why do people climb mountains? ;)
Coventry Climax
17th August 2024, 16:15
Some people even just stay in bed, as getting out “just seems a lot of effort for a limited revenue”.
So if that’s your mindset..
Elie
17th August 2024, 16:03
Even if costs 3million per unit which Im sure it wont – there will be margin in it. I doubt they will even know an exact cost because it depends what value they apply on the resources & technology devoted/ borrowed or “transferred” from the race team.In any case it’s more about brand exposure and public image than making huge profits when niche projects like this come about.
Luke
17th August 2024, 17:37
I think that Newey designed the car with the intention to make anyone who drove the RB17 feel like a race car driver, to share the one of a kind experience of driving on the limit and being one with a car. He did say that, “We tried to come up with a car which would be accessible to somebody with relatively limited experience,” Newey said. “They would be able to feel the car, it would be benign, not too snappy, not too difficult to drive.”
Bullfrog (@bullfrog)
17th August 2024, 18:43
Why not?
If they were Pirellis, it would be too much for the tyres standing still.
Andy H
17th August 2024, 23:26
It’s a way of reducing the wage expenditure for the RB F1 team. They pay engineers salaries through these special projects this reducing the F1 budget. Which can then be used on developing the F1 car.
rsp123 (@rsp123)
20th August 2024, 17:05
50 cars, and an awful lot of spare parts.
stefano (@alfa145)
17th August 2024, 10:04
@keithcollantine you typoed Chiron’s speed, it’s 420 km/h, not 240
Oople
17th August 2024, 18:25
What a blazing speed!
MacLeod (@macleod)
19th August 2024, 7:55
What is the difference :)
SteveP
17th August 2024, 11:08
1. It’s a test bed for active aero
2. It’s a test bed for ICE project to develop a PU that may or may not just happen to have an electric component in one variant
While walking a fine line, it isn’t in breach of the FIA rules.
Jere (@jerejj)
17th August 2024, 12:31
Capable of F1-level lap times in the hands of a professional?
Well, firstly, impossible to state for certain that every single full professional racing driver in the world would necessarily be capable, not to mention virtual world is different from reality, so just because some amateur racer managed a lap time second faster than this year’s British GP pole time doesn’t mean that driver could achieve the same on the real Silverstone circuit.
MacLeod (@macleod)
19th August 2024, 7:59
@jerejj Adrian said during the interview “in the hands of race drivers the car is seconds faster then the last qualify on Silverstone…..”
If the tyres would be stronger the car would even faster… that is scary.
floodo1 (@floodo1)
17th August 2024, 15:01
Amazing
Asd
17th August 2024, 16:18
It looks like the most generic hypercal/lmps type of car. Terrible. I would be embarrased to show it publicly if I was a famous designer.
Nick T.
17th August 2024, 16:26
He’s an engineer. Not a designer. He’s a function over form kind of guy. Personally, I think it looks great.
Boomerang
17th August 2024, 23:29
Gordon Murray Automotive is hiring, he might contribute and learn a lot there. I mean about designing usable road cars.
Nick T.
18th August 2024, 0:34
I agree it’s weak that they’re releasing this car as a non-road legal car. Kind of defeats the whole purpose.
Yaru (@yaru)
18th August 2024, 17:12
Looks pretty cool to me.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
17th August 2024, 16:23
Just wondering why they didn’t call Pirelli…
Nick T.
17th August 2024, 16:26
Mama Mia!
Coventry Climax
17th August 2024, 16:43
That was more or less my remark as well, when the first pictures emerged here, a couple weeks back.
Anyway, the answer is that Pirelly don’t have an R&D department.
Pirelli have been ‘developing’ the F1 tyres through their very experienced T&E department.
Essentially, they’re so experienced, because Pirelli have had that department since day one of their existence, and never saw the need for an R&D counterpart. And ofcourse, there’s always been their M&I department to back it all up and sweep failures under the cartpet.
I assume you now what R&D stands for, but T&E stands for Trial and Error, and M&I stands for Marketing and Investigations.
anon
17th August 2024, 17:12
@tifoso1989 because Michelin’s marketing department appears to have been the ones to approach Red Bull first.
MacLeod (@macleod)
19th August 2024, 8:02
As they made the Chiron tyres it would be a good idea to do development with Michelin.
VIETVET
17th August 2024, 17:32
So now that this project is over, and now that his F1 cars will have won 3 consecutive championships if not four, and now that Newey is leaving all that behind and reportedly saying it’s not about the money (which things almost always are), then just where is he going to go from here? NASA? No. Back to Williams, who he will find in James Vowles the perfect enabler to build the 2026 spec car. You simply cannot listen to Vowles speak for five minutes and not be won over by the man’s sincerity, passion, and integrity, with the last attribute being the most important to someone like Newey.
How do I know this? Because excellent engineers are not interested in material rewards. Rather they want 1) the freedom to follow their instincts and imagination in pursuit of big picture goals 2) an occasional atta-boy for a job well done (they know themselves if it was or wasn’t any good 3) peers that are competent, because after integrity that is the quality that they most respect, and 4) a boss they can trust to not just back them up, but to be understanding when they encounter their worst fear, which is to be confronted with a problem that they cannot solve. Look around the F1 paddock and there’s only one Principal that fits that bill, and it’s James Vowles.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
17th August 2024, 21:55
lolz.
His name is Christian Horner, Newey just didn’t want to be associated with ‘Horner-gate’ which was really about the undoing of RBR, Max’s ability to go around corners faster than others, ie the real reason why RBR was going to fall to pieces.
And a father, who was most likely working with one Toto Wolff, to help undermine RBR, through the ‘cheating allegations’, allegations that probably benefited Porsche and RBR-Austria. But allegations that clearly had the potential to ruin Newey’s credibility, and the other guy’s credibility who are also leaving, a scandal so big, it had the opportunity of handing Max Verstappen right in to the clutches of one Toto Wolff, courtesy of Jos, and a lady who wanted some attention, and potentially a payout.
Cui Bono. Motive and opportunity. And follow the money. Newey had to leave if Christian Horner stayed around, because if he didn’t take the fall, then the focus would have had to shift to the car itself, and not some crazy has been team principal who was toxic and did in Max’s hopes. It’s all theater, from the commentators and the stake holders, and it’s all based around being able to control the outcomes of the races, so that they control the whims and confidence of the masses.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
17th August 2024, 22:11
The critical point is, who held the lynch pin. Who had the ability to play Jos, or use him, or vice versa, who had the leverage to push the whole thing in together.
1. Someone who was/had gone to the FIA regarding the inertial-biasing valve. (Mercedes, RBR-Austria) { knowledge of impending doom }
2. Someone who wanted RBR to fall down, either in the short term or long term (RBR-Austria+Porsche | Toto | Liberty) { stake holder }
3. Who had the potential means to, needle Jos in to playing the fool for the media, foretelling the crisis in the first place (trigger event). (Toto-Liberty | RBR-Austria) { the carrot }
Thus, Horner’s relationship with the Thai owners was critical in to righting his own ship within RBR, because it’s clear there are those who want him out of the picture, for their own piece of the pie, or to take over Max for his ‘credit’/interest-mind share of the audience.
Horner’s ability to build a motor for RBR upsets the apple cart, and it’s clear its made him enemies. With those who have a large stake in F1, and their ability to be a king maker (cough Antonelli, cough woulda shoulda, cough Toto Wolff). Liberty, Mercedes-Wolff, Austria+Porsche (aggrieved). Make enough enemies, and things begin to happen, but it’s clear, by examining Jos’s role in the affair, that there was someone who knew how to use him to put out certain messaging in the media, whether with the commentators/journos or if he indeed had anything to do with the ‘release’, which could have been Horner himself, trying to draw attention to a certain manipulator/tool.
If Jos was really interested about his son’s welfare, he would have said nothing to the media, unless he had been given the ‘okay’. Just like a lot of other media pundits.
Nick T.
18th August 2024, 0:36
An interesting conclusion since everyone and their mother is saying he’s agreed to deal with Aston Martin. I think he wants a team that is already able to actually build the car he’ll design. I’d be happy if he went to Williams though.
VIETVET
20th August 2024, 2:13
Thank you, Nick. Everyone and their mother says Aston Martin except the guy who made news today claiming that he’s going to Ferrari. Rumors, rumors. Everyday a new rumor. Just ask yourself, if you were Newey, where would you go? Would you want to work, say, for Lawrence Stroll? I wouldn’t and I know where I’d go. I’d go to the place where I’m most needed and can make the biggest difference, and that’s where and for who? Right. Of course we could all be wrong.
Nick T.
22nd August 2024, 8:09
I wouldn’t mind if I was wrong and he went to Williams. In fact, I’d be happy. However, I’d like to see Alonso finally given a car worthy of his talent. It’d mark a fairytale ending to a career in which he’s been plagued with undeserving cars. Then he could step right over to Williams after they’d brought up their infrastructure to snuff.
Nick T.
22nd August 2024, 8:11
ps – No one seems to mind Lawrence. The entire problem is Lance. He’s spoiled, lazy and gives the team a bad look. Lawrence has done only good things for F1 and is truly passionate about the sport. He’s not there like Gene Haas just to line his pockets or corporate owners like Audi involved in a new marketing exercise.
VIETVET
25th August 2024, 13:56
Agree on both counts but, personally, I see Lawrence as a financier and not an engineer, whereas Vowles is a bird of a feather who would understand and appreciate Newey more than anyone. As to Alonso, I always cheer for him and despite Gene Hass, Hulkenberg and Mag. But really, all these guys, even Lance, have my admiration.
Ajaxn
17th August 2024, 19:06
Is this story served to now, meant as a distraction from the emerging stories about his other car design?
‘See, i can design legal cars’
SteveR (@stever)
17th August 2024, 19:33
That is not a street legal car, it’s a track car.
Nick T.
18th August 2024, 0:38
What car isn’t legal? Because every car he’s designed has been legal. Or are you one of those bitter excuse makers who say, “oh, they’re only winning because they went over budget by a few hundred thousand dollars,” which is a drop in the bucket.
Tristan
18th August 2024, 4:58
There’s breaking news about their brake system.
MacLeod (@macleod)
19th August 2024, 8:13
You have proof that Red Bull has cheated because that seems noone has … please reframe yourself of spreading rumours which isn’t proved by no one.
Even a RB monteur came out saying that it’s total false … And he was wondering why the teams who catchup with Red Bull doesn’t get the reconising their good work!
Alesici
18th August 2024, 11:17
It’s very odd, as the main tyres the car comes with are designed to be like road car tyres, specially designed for a car that isn’t allowed on the road. And that’s driven the design to use active aero to bleed off the downforce to allow for the limitations of those road car tyres. This nonsense doesn’t sound like the single clear vision of integrated design that Newey normally strives for.
There’s a very good video about this car on the youtube channel engineering explained. It’s pretty funny.
It makes me wonder what the relationship is between this car and the very similar and Newey-penned Aston Martin Valkyrie.
JMDan (@danmar)
18th August 2024, 17:14
Are we not allowed to post links here?