The FIA says it has no plans to change its rules on front wings Formula 1 after Red Bull voiced doubts over the legality of its rivals’ designs.
Red Bull team principal Christian Horner and motorsport consultant Helmut Marko drew attention to the designs used by rivals McLaren and Mercedes following the Italian Grand Prix. Although the team did not claims its rivals’ designs were illegal, they suggested the wings may flex to an extent the FIA may not approve of.Front wings must comply with rules governing their size and shape. They also undergo weight tests designed to ensure they do not flex excessively as the load upon them increases at high speed.
The FIA’s technical department confirmed in a statement to RaceFans that “all front wings are currently compliant with the 2024 regulations” and they do not intend to introduce new tests in the near future.
Teams have been required to run additional cameras during Friday’s practice sessions since the Belgian Grand Prix in order to provide further data to the FIA on how front wings deform at speed. The FIA intends to continue this approach at least until the Singapore Grand Prix later this month in order to observe behaviours across a range of downforce levels, from minimum to maximum.
“This will ensure a large database allowing the FIA to draw the most objective picture of the situation and quantify differences between the various dynamic patterns observed on track,” a spokesperson told RaceFans.
“No component is infinitely stiff, which is the reason why there are load deflection tests in the regulations.
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“The front wing has been a challenging area throughout the years, because the aerodynamic loading patterns between different competitors varies and it is therefore difficult to find a load vector which will cover all types of front wing construction.
“Other areas of the car – including rear wing and floor edges – have much more consistent aerodynamic loading patterns across the grid, making for a more universal load-deflection test.”
The spokesperson confirmed no changes to the regulations in this area are currently planned.
“The FIA has the right to introduce new tests if irregularities are suspected. There are no plans for any short-term measures, but we are evaluating the situation with the medium and long-term in mind.”
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t1redmonkey (@t1redmonkey)
3rd September 2024, 12:28
So I guess potentially now Red Bull may make their own front wings more ‘flexible’ since this indicates they might have been too conservative with theirs?
Optimaximal (@optimaximal)
3rd September 2024, 12:39
Personally, I doubt it – it’s more likely they were just hoping to get rivals designs banned or have the technical delegate issue a clarification which will force them to pull back on what they were doing.
The lead time on new wing designs and the fact the season is leaving Europe again means bringing whole new designs will have diminishing returns.
notagrumpyfan
3rd September 2024, 13:19
I assume the CAD design they have already and a good idea how the best designs will impact their car.
The size of the expected benefit will define if they will now spend time and money on getting some physical examples and testing them.
Optimaximal (@optimaximal)
3rd September 2024, 14:43
They likely have many concepts, but because of CFD and Wind Tunnel restrictions, they likely wouldn’t have tested many, if any, of them, especially as they’re already chasing balance issues elsewhere on their car.
This is why the modern ‘first step’ is to get a rival’s interpretations classified as illegal – then you don’t have to chase it as an option.
BMW P85 V10
3rd September 2024, 17:40
Balance issues just might be the outcome of a concept where there’s no more room for improvement.
The only improvement can be made with flexiwings that are barely legal but FIA closes their eyes on as long as they get an exiting championship. The flexiwings allow McLaren & Mercedes to run higher downforce in the corners with losing the benefit of straight line speed. If they have to deal with this trade off chances are McLaren & Mercedes will also run into balance problems. Either the lack of top speed or losing cornering speed.
Pre season Dominicali stated that the FIA would be able to change the rules during season if teams found loopholes in the regulations to allow them to develop things that are not within the spirit of the rules.
These heavy flexing wings are defininately not within the spirit of the rules, but hey, who wants another Abu Dhabi thriller?
SteveP
3rd September 2024, 19:15
Not a problem for a team with an aero design “god”, just pop into Adrian’s office and describe it and there will be new design tomorrow.
OK, they cut him out of the loop for design work on upgrades. Never mind, one of the guys that “largely designed the car” without him can do it, or not.
Davethechicken
3rd September 2024, 22:02
@BMW
A huge number of parameters in every F1 car are “barely legal”. Front wings, rear wings, weight, width, in fact pretty much anything you can name.
It is either within the laws or it isn’t. There is no grey area of “barely legal”
Every team is doing it with multiple aspects of their cars.
As you rightly say the FIA can change the rules.but tend not to mid season as teams spend their finite budget and resources to make their design. To ban them midway is not normal if they confirm to the law as written.
SteveP
4th September 2024, 8:22
Which, when you think about it, makes the mid-season re-write of the rule to now explicitly ban asymmetric braking systems rather strange.
If no one was using it, why re-write mid-season? Just leave it until the end, or at least issue a “for 2025” statement so no one spends time developing something.
J3d89
3rd September 2024, 23:06
Like Mercedes or McLaren did when Redbull were passing the static test but flexing the wings…that’s the fair thing to do
Jack
3rd September 2024, 12:50
Interesting to see Racefans making out this was just Redbull talking about the wings when actually Ferrari & Williams are also reported in other articles as having concerns
Peat Smoke
3rd September 2024, 15:02
Especially given that Vasseur said during the weekend that he’ll talk about it with the FIA.
Nathan
3rd September 2024, 20:21
That’s because it was both The Helmet and Horney Spice who were moaning the loudest and the fact that it is most relevant to mention RB due to their particular struggles at the moment and their position in the championships. Helmet and the secretary flasher do it specifically so they WILL get these sort of articles written.
Peat Smoke
4th September 2024, 8:22
Marko and Horner are smart enough to know that the more teams complain, the better their case. I don’t think articles omitting that they’re not the only ones who have seen an issue with the wings in questions, is what they aim for.
SteveP
4th September 2024, 8:24
Pssst, Fred, James, do you know what they are doing? I think we should all complain.
Melbourne '96 (@melbourne-96)
3rd September 2024, 15:57
Agree, only to me it’s rather saddening than interesting..
Mayrton
5th September 2024, 7:15
Because most readers let themselves be steered by it, it is partly responsible for the increasingly toxic environment around the sport. But hey, anything for meeting business objectives, right?
Mayrton
5th September 2024, 7:14
Yes, creating controversy for the clicks. I always take these headlines with a grain of salt.
BLS (@brightlampshade)
3rd September 2024, 13:14
It always makes me smile when I see Red Bull questioning flexi wings. Always hard to see others outdo you in your own area of expertise!
Fletch (@fletchuk)
3rd September 2024, 16:36
I still remember when they were hiding hinges under all the molding on the front wing
shinronin
3rd September 2024, 23:19
100% you know RB is desperate when that team of all teams brings up aero bits flexing. queue world’s smallest violin.
Nulla Pax (@nullapax)
3rd September 2024, 13:26
If you hadn’t lost Newey then you wouldn’t have a problem … just saying!
SteveP
3rd September 2024, 19:18
Well of course, since the car “was largely designed” without him that isn’t a problem, is it?
Nick T.
3rd September 2024, 23:56
It is true that this year’s aero has much less Newey DNA and it shows. It’s also widely known that he disagreed with how they chose to evolve his design for this year. However, the suspension remains Newey’s design and it is clear have no idea how to set it up without him and how to make the design as a whole work without him.
Also on the topic of front wings, I had wondered if to save money, the teams didn’t produce entirely new wings when making modifications that weren’t massive and was pleased to finally get a clear answer this week when they talked about multiple existing wings having area carved out of them and/or new pieces bonded onto them save the cost of producing an entirely new wing at major cost.
I’d also like to know what happened to the dozens of front wings teams used to produce each season along with other body components. I wonder if they were all retained and sold with various chassis to private collectors when they did sell them. I know people would pay a lot of money to just have a real F1 wing, barge board, etc.
MichaelN
3rd September 2024, 14:44
Uhm, isn’t the FIA not approving of something the definition of an illegal design?
Although I suppose Red Bull knows enough about flexing wings to appreciate the vagueness; it used to be ‘their thing’.
Moi
3rd September 2024, 15:30
My interpretation is that it is a ‘letter of the law’ vs ‘spirit of the law’ situation according to Red Bull.
Something can be technically compliant with the tests but not as intended. Not illegal under current tests, but might lead to the rules/tests being adjusted forcing teams to change their car. We’ve seen this multiple times in the past.
MadMax (@madmax)
3rd September 2024, 21:30
FIA just clarified they dont change the rules. Stated pretty clear in the article.
Davethechicken
3rd September 2024, 22:13
They tend to change rules at the end of the season, eg with DAS, giving notice to teams in advance so they don’t spend their finite budgets and resources on soon to be outlawed parts.
If McLaren and Mercedes have found a way of making the wing flex and confirm to the rule then surely that is the essence of F1 development and should be applauded as with other great designs?
I had to admire Red Bull and Newey at the start of these phase of cars, as Ferrari and Mercedes porpoised violently for down the straights, the Red Bull was a serene rocketship. Engineering ingenuity all within the rules.
Sham (@sham)
3rd September 2024, 15:23
The main benefit of the wings in question is their different shape and how it works alone and to feed air to the rest of the car. It isn’t the flexing.
Red Bull, and others, have lost out in this area and changing the whole cars aero philosophy to work the same way would be impossible so late in the season, and so they were hoping to cause destabilisation for the teams beating them.
Its a tactic they’re used to using, and most F1 teams aren’t averse to it either.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
4th September 2024, 12:33
the front wing, is like a slat on a bigger wing, if you are able to retract it, it does indeed affect the flow of air over the rest of the airfoil, but it also reduces drag. The cars are actually not that complicated, teams like Mercedes would have you believe it is because they intentionally sabotaged their last couple of years after 2021 in order to help the anointed one accrue so many wins and prestige. But in reality the cars are very simple in their design, there is just a lot of delicate work to help optimize for certain problems, but generally speaking they are really stupid simple. Also, the whole idea of the cars being ‘ground effects’ era cars, is complete garbage. Teams have been trying to run them as low to the ground for the longest.
F1 decided to brand the last few years the ‘ground effects’ cars because they wanted to lend credit / cover to RBR for their domination, it actually has nothing to do with Newey or the design of the cars. Running tunnels under cars does not make them ground effects, diffusers have been around for a long long time, and so have teams been attempting to run the cars as close to the ground as possible. Running more air under the cars in fact does not really help down force in reality, even if the two channels are helping to opimize the speed of the air under the car, its not the best way to achieve super low air pressures/low resistance air currents. materials science, and even very much more ‘fine’ work can be done to dramatically affect the way air flows over surfaces.
If anything F1 owes a lot of ‘down force’ to the increased ballast/weight requirements. Cars like Nissan’s GTR are a testament that adding weight to a car can actually help it’s handling/stability. The wider tires and tire design/compounds actually have quite a bit to do with turning a corner.
The only way F1 actually lives up to its namesake is if it actually invites competition and stops slowing down the competitors with grossly inferior tires. But this might scare people who are too big to fail with in the sport, which would be pretty much approaching everyone, which is a horrible testament, because being able to fail, is what makes people great. Those who cannot accept failure as an outcome, will always be small, unenlightened and fake, real risks, real rewards, real racing.
David
3rd September 2024, 16:57
If RBR can’t make their car go faster, then the only alternative left is try and slow down the competition.
It’s sad really.
LosD (@losd)
3rd September 2024, 17:28
Damn, just wanted to reply, but reported by accident. Sorry!
Anyway, what I wanted to say: I’m definitely no Red Bull fan, but this is more an F1 thing than a Red Bull thing. It’s just part of the game.
Nm
3rd September 2024, 20:01
merc style
An Sionnach
3rd September 2024, 17:45
I see. Thanks, Toto.
MadMax (@madmax)
3rd September 2024, 21:28
blind of hate i doubt you’ll see anything
Race Fan
3rd September 2024, 20:13
Why did you selectively pick Red Bull? Elsewhere it is being reported that Ferrari and Williams are also voicing concerns.
SuperIU
3rd September 2024, 22:10
Red Bull is complaining because its cheaper to have the FIA banned those front wings from rivals than to make their own alike. That’s why the don’t want FIA to rule they are illegal, thwy try to force FIA to make them illegal for the upcomming races.
RB also spent a lot of money repairing their cars from crashes and I was amazed that FIA is not forcing teams to cover the cost of other cars when their pilots crashed into others. Like the rest of the aotomobile world does in a day by day. Haas/Mag would be in a serious problemas if FIA forced that insurance rule (the one who hits has to pay) and teams could spend better their budget if they are nor worried by others faults.
Stoo
4th September 2024, 16:24
I have to admit that it’s something I’d never thought of, but it’s still a brilliant idea, it would certainly breed a lot less drivers like Kmag or Ocon just two of quite a few.
j3d89
3rd September 2024, 23:10
People here apparently forget that Redbull at one point passed their test and Merc still got their wings banned in less than 3 gps… Don’t be double standard,
Applebook
4th September 2024, 3:18
We also remember cost cap gate. Red Bull has no credibility when it comes to the rules. They don’t even abide by hard, inflexible (pun intended) stipulations.
Veteran
4th September 2024, 7:44
@keith it was not only RBR that asked for this investigation. You are the only website reporting it like this. It was Mercedes, Williams and RBR.