In the round-up: Former Haas team principal Guenther Steiner says late Formula 1 director Charlie Whiting, who died in 2019, would not have prevented the controversial end to the 2021 world championship.
In brief
Whiting wouldn’t have allowed 2021 finale ‘s*** show’
“That isn’t a good situation,” Steiner added in his new book, ‘Unfiltered’.
He said one example of this was the controversial 2021 Abu Dhabi Grand Prix, where race director Michael Masi broke F1’s rules by arranging a late Safety Car restart, in which Lewis Hamilton lost the world championship to Max Verstappen.
“Wherever your loyalties lie with that one (and yes, I agree, it was amazing entertainment), from a regulations point of view it was a shit show of biblical proportions, and regardless of what decision Charlie Whiting might have made in Michael Masi’s position there would have been far less controversy and embarrassment,” Steiner wrote.“Oh, fok it. We all know what Charlie would have done. Had he been at the helm Lewis would now be an eight-time world champion.”
Camara succeeds Antonelli as FREC champion
Ferrari junior driver Rafael Camara has won the Formula Regional European Championship title, which 2025 Mercedes F1 racer Andrea Kimi Antonelli claimed last year. Fourth place in yesterday’s race at the Circuit de Catalunya (below) secured the crown, despite his closest rival James Wharton taking his third win from pole position in the last four races.
Wurz to Trident
Charlie Wurz, who finished 22nd in the FIA Formula 3 championship with Jenzer this year, will join Trident next season. Trident driver Fornaroli won the title this year.
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Links
IndyCar set for Dallas street race in 2026 (Racer)
'The street race is set to be held around AT&T Stadium, home of the National Football League’s Dallas Cowboys, on the team’s expansive campus located in Arlington, Texas.'
Tyler Epp exclusive: SB Nation talks with the president of the F1 Miami Grand Prix (SB Nation)
'When you can flip on the screen early on Sunday morning and not know who’s going to win, and qualifying takes on a whole different value proposition? F1 and the FIA get a ton of credit for how they built this series this year. The teams get a ton of credit, the best drivers in the world, all competing at a very high level.'
Better time management helped Lundqvist save season (IndyCar)
'That was one of the areas I was a little bit worried about going forward. I think, in the past, qualifying experience was my strong side, and it was kind of in my weak side this year.'
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Leaving Barcelona as @CIFormula4 TEAM CHAMPIONS 2024 & celebrating FREDDIE SLATER as the DRIVER CHAMPION 🏆
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Comment of the day
This weekend’s Caption Competition winner is Roth Man:
Carlos doesn’t have the heart to tell Charles what he really thinks of his low calorie ice cream
Roth Man (@rdotquestionmark)
Thanks to everyone who supplied captions this weekend, especially Urvaksh and AllTheCoolNamesWereTaken who also provided great suggestions.
Happy birthday!
Happy birthday to Tyanne and Jamiejay!
On this day in motorsport
- 40 years ago today Martin Brundle returned to racing for the first time since his huge Dallas crash – in the first ever British Truck Grand Prix at Donington Park. He was leading the grand final until his brakes failed in the closing stages.
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David BR (@david-br)
30th September 2024, 0:19
Community service for Guenther Steiner!
FIA won’t like that bit of swearing either.
Craig
30th September 2024, 8:43
I imagine for calling them out he’ll get a far worse penalty for that
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 12:35
@david-br Unless Guenther ends up in a FIA paddock again, the FIA couldn’t contractually enforce any penalty without a court order.
David BR (@david-br)
30th September 2024, 14:09
@alianora-la-canta I know, I was just imagining the squirming discomfort they must feel at not being able to penalize him!
Drop Saudi
30th September 2024, 1:09
Charlie probably would have finished under safety car. He did nothing to make USA 2005 a race, fair to assume he would do nothing in AD 2021. I’m glad Masi did what he did, though I’m sad Hamilton didn’t get the win.
MacLeod (@macleod)
30th September 2024, 8:13
Masi got a order from his bosses for no safety car finishes after what happened in Spa. So Masi uses his RC powers to do this and that happened. Not sure if Charlie would ignore those orders but 2021 would be total different for sure. (Maybe Lewis would be champion but a lot of things during that year would be different so we will never known.)
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
30th September 2024, 10:14
Yes, for example people forget about other controversial matters like hamilton cutting the track in bahrain 29 times with no penalty, then verstappen immediately asked to give the place back when he went off track AFTER overtaking hamilton, or the early incident between verstappen and hamilton in abu dhabi, or the silverstone crash, or both going off in interlagos.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 12:48
@esploratore1 Don’t forget other controversies like the two races which by regulations shouldn’t have even started (Spa and Saudi Arabia, the former due to atrocious weather and the latter due to the circuit’s lack of a safety inner road visibly delaying rescues – something even Grade 4 FIA circuits are required to avoid, let alone Grade 1 – meaning the track shouldn’t even have been approved, and the race cancelled when the delay issue became apparent during Friday afternoon sessions across multiple series).
If removing all races where demonstrable and unequivocal misconduct occurred, there probably wouldn’t be much 2021 left.
Leeroy
4th October 2024, 7:02
Spot on, Silverstone should have been a drive through for Hamilton. That was 25 free points to Hamilton. Abu Dhabi would not have been a decider.
And dont forget Massa should have a title. Crash gate race should have been wiped for all drivers (no points for anyone, invalid as it was maniplulated). So Hamilton only has 6 Guenther.
Doh
1st October 2024, 4:25
After? How many corners after overtaking Hamilton did max go off? I’ll doubt you’re too dumb to know that during the overtake you can’t go off.
Ajaxn
1st October 2024, 14:48
And lets not forget Verstappen parking his car on Hamilton’s head in Monza.
“That’s what you get for not leaving more space”
Leeroy
4th October 2024, 6:57
It is what you get, the rules state you must leave a car width. Hamilton didnt.
Craig
30th September 2024, 8:49
USA 2005 was ultimately out of his hands as the Bridgestone teams and Bernie refused any and all compromises. If Whiting had been in charge in 2021 I don’t think things would have gotten as out of hand rules wise as they did (AD was hardly the only questionable ruling that year).
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 12:46
@macleod If that order actually exists, then whoever gave the order is culpable for breach of the FIA regulations, along with Masi. Quite apart from learning the wrong lesson from Spa 2021 (that the weather was not fit to even attempt the start, and that even the two laps that occurred should not have happened in the first place), it also resulted in unnecessary safety risk to some of the lapped cars That the FIA has never identified this person or the order would make this more complicated to establish (the FIA established a preference had been set, but a preference cannot override a regulatory requirement, and it’s a regulatory requirement that got broken in Abu Dhabi).
I for one do not find hazardous corruption entertaining to watch, but then I don’t enjoy boxing either.
PB
1st October 2024, 22:52
If he had restarted but NOT allowed the 7 or so back markers to clear, it might have been fine.
He allowed Verstappen to get fresh tyres AND duck the position penalty that came from the pit stop.
Back markers + good tyres vs. position + worn tyres with 1 lap would have been a reasonably fair outcome.
However according to rules, it was and remains a clear case of finish under SC.
He didn’t just break rules, he removed Hamilton’s position advantage while retaining Max’s tyre advantage. Worst of all.
Gusm.ai
30th September 2024, 1:33
On the Dallas track, it is a good thing that autoracing is finding new opportunities and capital.
But it a very bad trend to make a lifeless flat track.
Aside from yellow flags confusion they rarely result in good racing.
Edvaldo
30th September 2024, 1:35
Well, he for sure wouldn’t let himself be pushed around by both TPs like Masi did that season.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 12:52
I don’t think he’d have allowed a situation where the TPs could employ radio in their arguments in the first place, citing the obvious safety issues with the one person authorised to throw red flags being expected to listen to team principals directly. At least put in some triage so that only calls about issues that would lead to an increase in the current situation (e.g. “Someone crashed heavily under the Safety Car”) reached the race director’s ears verbally! (Messaging the race director using text would have been more defensible – it might have assuaged the team principals, Liberty could have displayed the messages and the race director would have been at perfect liberty to ignore them all if something more important was in progress).
Garns (@garns)
30th September 2024, 3:27
Agreed, that wouldn’t have happen under Charlie & Herbie. While great entertainment, Massi must have forgot the FIA rules that day.
Also a shout out to Herbie Blash, its his birthday today!
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
30th September 2024, 7:26
It’s also my birthday today (not that the ‘big wigs’ at RaceFans ever acknowledge it). And Max’s.
MacLeod (@macleod)
30th September 2024, 8:16
@bernasaurus
you can edit your profile so the system would know …
But Congrats bernasaurus with your birthday !
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
30th September 2024, 8:42
Ha! Thank you MacLeod. I might just do that. And happy birthday to Tyanne and Jamiejay and sorry Keith and Will for calling you ‘big wigs’.
Garns (@garns)
30th September 2024, 9:33
@bernasaurus Happy Birthday mate, have a good one!!
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
30th September 2024, 10:32
Thank you Garns!
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 12:53
@bernasaurus Happy birthday!
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
30th September 2024, 13:38
Thank you Alianora La Canta!
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
30th September 2024, 15:55
@bernasaurus
Happy birthday ! At least you share your birthday with one of the sport’s personalities which is cool. I share the same birthday as…. Donald Trump. How about that :)
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 3:59
So what? He may have ruled differently on many things that happened that season, there would have been fewer safety cars, etc. It doesn’t matter because he wasn’t there. If the rules were applied as they are now, Alonso definitely wins the 2010 title. But they weren’t and he didn’t. So, this type of retconning is absurd.
Jere (@jerejj)
30th September 2024, 6:17
True, although I don’t see how Alonso could’ve/would’ve realistically won the 2010 championship if the rules were applied the modern way.
Mike
30th September 2024, 8:04
Rules keep changing and adopting, reacting to situations that happen.
They now have stricter track boundaries rules as Verstappen took the abuse to another level. It was a reaction.
They have more advanced ways how to measure various parts of cars, when, where. As a reaction to teams always looking for loopholes.
You cannot say that this or that driver would not be a 2010 champion with current rules as that just makes no sense. The drivers should be champions with the rules at the time. Which has been, by many, and many times, seriously put into question in 2021.
You could say that nobody would be a champion with current rules all the way to 1950s, gosh they would not even allow those cars on the grid.
Tifoso1989 (@tifoso1989)
30th September 2024, 16:08
@jerejj
Charlie Whiting’s shenanigans in 2010 were on another level by his own standard, especially regarding Fernando Alonso’s penalty at Silverstone and the chaotic European GP in Valencia.
At Silverstone, Alonso, running 3rd, received a drive-through penalty for overtaking Robert Kubica off the track. After the race, Ferrari released radio transcripts to contradict Whiting’s claim that he had instructed them to immediately return the position to Kubica. According to Ferrari, they promptly asked Whiting for clarification on what to do, but Whiting replied he would “get back to them.” Despite Ferrari’s repeated inquiries, particularly after Kubica’s subsequent retirement, Whiting allegedly took no action for 10 minutes before finally issuing the penalty.
The situation at the European Grand Prix in Valencia earlier that year was also highly contentious. Both Alonso and his Felipe Massa were penalized for following the rules and not overtaking the SC. In contrast, Lewis Hamilton, who illegally passed the SC and gained a significant advantage, received his penalty half an hour later. By the time it was enforced, Hamilton had already built up a gap, making the penalty ineffective and allowing him to maintain his position while Alonso and Massa dropped down the order.
Red Andy (@red-andy)
30th September 2024, 18:10
It was also in Valencia that the majority of the top 10 drove too quickly under the safety car, but rather than being given drive-through penalties (as was the standard penalty at the time), they were all given then-unprecedented five-second penalties instead. Alonso was again the main victim of this leniency, as he stood to gain several positions if consistent penalties had been applied.
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 22:22
Silverstone is the most obvious example. He’s getting a maximum 5 second time penalty. Likely no penalty today.
AlanD
1st October 2024, 0:01
This “giving the place back” business was somethng originally done by Hakkinen or someone as a way to escape a penalty, and it became the de facto rule that if you gave the place back before the stewards had a chance to come to a decision then they wouldn’t bother penalising you. I didn’t think it ever became the responsibility of the stewards or the Race Director to tell the driver to give the place back. I think the RD can give an opinion if asked, but ultimately it is still down to the driver to either voluntarily give back the advantage or risk a penalty. So if that’s true, and if CW was distracted by other things, or thought he’d given them an answer and was mistaken, it still doesn’t mitigate Ferrari or mean the penalty was unfair.
wooky
30th September 2024, 12:04
Thats not the same thing. if 2021 rules were applied like they were in 2021 then Hamilton is 8x champion, and in my eyes he is.
Robbie1
30th September 2024, 17:20
If the rules were correctly applied Lewis would have been disqualified for his reckless driving (euphemistic) at Silverstone + a race ban and none of these discussions regarding AD would take place, Max would have won his title and there would be no doubt Lewis name would always be associated with that of Michael and not in a good way.
skydiverian (@skydiverian)
2nd October 2024, 6:53
…and Max could easily have been disqualified for parking his car on Lewis at Monza. And the Schumacher analogy could easily be applied to Max for that one.
Robbie, if that isn’t enough, maybe Max brake checking into the final corner in Saudi Arabia to get DRS… or driving Lewis off the road in Brazil.
It’s very easy to use multiple examples from prior races to make a point to favour your preferred driver but it falls flat when it’s easy to make arguments both ways – and it’s very easy to justify poor steward decisions on both Lewis and Max. But what makes Abu Dhabi especially insidious is that Masi is on record about precedent from the Nurburgring, yet ignored his own advice to ensure the single green flag lap we got, giving Max a massively unfair advantage provided by officiating.
Max was on balance the better driver in 2021. Doesn’t mean that he deserves to have won the championship though and there are plenty of examples of drivers who have won the WDC when they arguably were not the best that year. It’s one thing when a less deserving driver wins due to misfortune of others (1982 is a good example). But it’s another when the officiating ignores precedent and skews the outcome for “the show”. That’s the issue you seem happy to ignore.
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 22:23
No one cares.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 12:54
This specific brand of retconning is because of a failure to apply the regulations as they existed at the time – both by people at Abu Dhabi and in the subsequent review (some of those involved still being in positions of power). As such, there is legal risk to the FIA’s false claim that results are sealed in after a certain date.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
30th September 2024, 16:06
Just out of curiosity, what do mean about the current rules changing the outcome of 2010? Do you mean in terms of penalties awarded for dangerous driving, in which case, which incident(s) are you thinking about?
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 22:24
There are multiple incidents, but Silverstone alone is enough to tilt the balance.
AlanD
1st October 2024, 0:56
Nick, I totally agree that you cannot say “if” for one race in isolation. I think the biggest argument against Massa’s claims for 2008 is that he thinks one race from a season should be nullified and we should all pretend that all subsequent races would have played out exactly the same. Massa could well have gone into the last race needing just one point to be WDC and Ferrari would still have found a way to stuff it up.
Likewise in 2021, if Massi had red flagged the race, given LH the chance to change tyres, it is still possible one tyre could have been out of balance and undrivable, or he might have had a terrible restart and binned it on the first corner. We’ll never know.
I don’t think Steiner is saying that if CW was still there throughout 2021 that only the end race would be different. I think he is just saying that for that particular race, for that particular situation, that the race director’s decisions on the day were deeply questionable and not objective. By saying “If CW had been in charge….” he is ruling out the counter argument that anyone in Massi’s position would have done exactly the same thing, or that Massi’s hands were tied, and illustrating how different decisions could have had a completely different outcome.
Nick T.
1st October 2024, 5:18
Well, that’s a reasonable argument. However, Whiting would have been the RD at all the other races. So, who knows what that means for the rest of the season. I think it’s fair for people to they thought the AD decision was BS, but it’s hardly the only terrible decision by an RD or steward that, in retrospect, changed the balance of the title.
I liked Whiting not because he always made the right call, which he didn’t. I liked him because he wouldn’t have allowed F1 to devolve into this Mickey Mouse series where they don’t race in the rain, any car on the side of the road – no matter how safely out of the firing line – being a VSC/SC or even RF, which in turn has led recoveries to now be executed at embarrassingly slow pace, etc.
Mayrton
1st October 2024, 11:41
Exactly. I have had it with the short sighted focus on this last race during an entirely rigged season. It shows the lack of perspective and overview a lot of people have.
L.G.
30th September 2024, 5:38
Of course, Steiner in his ever-nonexistent wisdom fails to account for the fact that under Whiting who, unlike his successors, was extremely safety-minded, wouldn’t have stood for a lot of other rubbish going on that year which would have added up to a lot of points gained and lost. Just one example from Lewis’s side, the only ten-second penalty he would have gotten under Whiting-advised stewards at Silverstone would have been a ten-second stop and go. There’s plenty to pick from from either side, mind you.
Señor Sjon
30th September 2024, 9:27
Bar Silverstone, the whole season would have been decided before AD. Verstappen wouldn’t have to cede his overtake at Bahrain for instance, winning that race. Would Whiting slowed down the pitstops? I doubt it. Then we would have a regular Verstappen stop in Monza. That would bring that raceresult RIC – VER – NOR – HAM. Both instances would have Verstappen gain 12 points on Hamilton. So they wouldn’t have tied in AD and Hamilton could not win with Verstappen following him, making the SC-story mute.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
30th September 2024, 10:20
Exactly, it’s nice to see I’m not the only one thinking that, like bahrain, silverstone, didn’t even think about the pit stops, but true, and also nice to see ricciardo’s monza performance is acknowledged by someone, as many people say it was only a win cause hamilton and verstappen crashed out, when there was no indication verstappen could pass him from what we saw.
Indeed, with some different decisions over the season, abu dhabi would’ve been a win for hamilton and a wdc celebration for verstappen, and masi took questionable decisions before then too.
Señor Sjon
2nd October 2024, 9:48
The swing is even bigger since Hamilton would lose the Bahrain win, I forgot to deduct those points. Then it would be 19 points gap before AD. The shenanigans between Lewis and Max in Saudi Arabia and Brazil probably wouldn’t have happened either, let alone 1-upping on new engines from Mercedes. I do think the AD-race would have played out as it went with Verstappen gunning for victory in the last lap.
Nick T.
3rd October 2024, 6:53
A bunch of great points, which makes this whole retconning even more absurd. But Steiner, contrary to popular opinion, is not a fool. He knew saying this would help generate a lot of publicity for himself.
And RE: Monza, the even more annoying claim / misrememberance I hear regarding that GP is that Norris would have won if not for team orders and that Lando was all over Daniel’s tail and told to back off. Anyone who’s recently watched the race or has a memory as excellent as they think, knows that’s a load of BS.
Craig
30th September 2024, 10:49
I can’t see the penalty changing as both drivers had blame in that incident (which was blown out of proportion by Horner), but I imagine a lot of incidents that were overlooked wouldn’t have been ignored by Whiting.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:06
The only control Whiting would have had on Silverstone 2021 would have been to decide if the penalty was referred to the stewards or not. Presumably Whiting would have made the same call as Masi – by referring the matter. Since nobody is saying the stewards themselves would have been different, since the race director is forbidden from recommending penalties or decisions regarding guilt to the stewards (only relay that such-and-such a situation should be investigated for a particular infraction), it is hard to imagine a different penalty occurring simply because a non-steward happens to be different (unless corruption is being indicated, in which case the suggestions from Abu Dhabi would only make sense if someone other than the race director is the source).
Even if Whiting had been a steward as well as a race director (forbidden in the FIA regulations), the specific example you cite is debatable. The relevant regulations do give latitude for a variety of penalties for that situation – lighter, harsher, exactly the same as the one imposed and even reversing the individual upon whom blame was apportioned, according to the stewards’ perspective. Even changing the stewarding panel does not make changing the penalty issued the presumed certainty that situations like Abu Dhabi’s finish (and Spa and Saudi Arabia’s races even starting) are. Spa, Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi were concrete regulations that had fixed possible interpretations in English – all of which were unambiguously broken by the race director.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:38
There’s also the issue that Red Bull breached the budget cap and yet no sporting penalty was imposed (a technical penalty was applied but the case wasn’t answered until late 2022, meaning the penalty didn’t kick in until 2023 and the first year of its consequences were 2024). Nobody present at the time could have foreseen that issue (unless one believes Red Bull could have done half a season on a few million pounds), but it is something that by FIA regulation, should have prevented Red Bull from being in the title fight.
Nick T.
2nd October 2024, 1:48
This is absurd. I say this as someone who thoroughly dislikes Max and is not an RBR fan. The amount of extra funds this breach gave them was absolutely minuscule. To allege they should have been thrown out of the fight sounds like a case of sour grapes in the extreme.
Armchair Expert (@armchairexpert)
30th September 2024, 5:47
Whiting allowed Suzuka 2014 to happen, despite having experience what can go very wrong in that situation at Interlagos in 2003. Strangely enough it was never mentioned by even one person from the F1 paddock before he passed away in 2019.
Also, Hamilton would have been 8-time world champion if he drove like one at Imola, Monaco, Paul Ricard, Red Bull Ring, Hungaroring, Spa, Monza and Istanbul. Or if he turned left in Baku, it was that simple. Let’s not mention his 2007, 2010 and 2016 campaigns, riddled with rookie mistakes, because that gets him another 3 titles on top of that.
Optimaximal (@optimaximal)
30th September 2024, 11:08
@armchairexpert To be fair to the guy, rookie mistakes were to be expected in 2007 and and he’d have ultimately won 2016 had someone done proper QC on the big-ends in his engine properly.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:34
@armchairexpert Sergio Perez got close, the week after it happened – and was told to put a sock in it by nearly everyone. That tends to put a chilling effect on discussing such matters, as does a FIA that ended up having to be forced to concede it couldn’t blame Jules for the incident after a settlement (that itself took 18 months to achieve).
If the budget cap regulations had been properly enforced, Lewis Hamilton would be an 8-time champion without any other decision needing to change (also Alonso would be a 3-time champion, Leclerc would have a title and the current fight would be between Norris, Leclerc and Piastri with several other people still having an outside chance). Lewis was denied of his 8th title twice by the FIA refusing to follow its own regulations.
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 22:25
2014 was solely Bianchi’s fault.
Jere (@jerejj)
30th September 2024, 6:16
Spot-on. Charlie Whiting most certainly wouldn’t have done the same thing to ensure a racing finish at all costs, given he never was excessive with SC or red-flagging deployments to any extent like his successors & one of those many races finishing under neutralized conditions in his time was, coincidently, a championship-deciding race, i.e., the 2012 Brazilian GP, which alone is a proof that the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP would’ve finished the same way had he still been alive & thus the race director.
Unfortunately, his untimely death on the pre-2019 Australian GP Thursday made things generally worse for the medium term.
For that matter, the 2021 Azerbaijan GP would’ve also finished under neutralized conditions, etc.
Ankita
30th September 2024, 8:03
And missing HAM’s funny mistake ???? What a misery that would have been …
Jere (@jerejj)
30th September 2024, 10:57
Ankita – True, that unforced error wouldn’t have happened had the race finished under SC conditions, although the possibility for such an error to happen in the first place only arose thanks to Max’s tyre failure, without which the top 3 would’ve been VER-PER-HAM without any further neutralizations, so always several alternate reality ways of how certain races in F1’s history would’ve ended.
Señor Sjon – I don’t recall the average car recovery time necessarily being any quicker in his time.
More or less the same under all RDs.
SteveP
1st October 2024, 8:03
only arose thanks to Max’s underinflated tyre failure,
Señor Sjon
30th September 2024, 9:30
Funny enough, under Whitings rule, cars were generally mopped up a lot quicker than the time it had cost to clear the Williams in AD. This was one of the longest SC’s on that track while only a single car was involved.
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 22:27
90% of today’s SCs + VSCs and even red flags aren’t event safety cars under Whiting. He’s not throwing a safety car for some gravel let alone a red flag.
MichaelN
30th September 2024, 10:53
Di Resta’s crash at the S/F straight in Brazil was magnitudes more troublesome than Latifi’s in Abu Dhabi. Plus it happened much later in the race. Not that it matters since this is all just a theory, but the two situations aren’t at all comparable other than that there was a late race SC.
Jere (@jerejj)
30th September 2024, 10:58
Not much later, given both happened within the last roughly 6 laps, but perhaps greater in magnitude, debris-wise.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:42
@jerejj Definitely greater in terms of debris!
notagrumpyfan
30th September 2024, 7:21
If my aunt had balls, she would be my uncle.
IPBA
30th September 2024, 10:03
That is nice. Many thanks for this lovely bit of unnecessary info.
notagrumpyfan
30th September 2024, 14:02
You’re welcome!
You might want to look it up though, and find out it’s probably not ‘info’ I’m sharing, but an opinion about the main topic of today’s round-up :P
Sonny Crockett (@sonnycrockett)
30th September 2024, 10:46
In this day and age, your uncle could have balls and still be your auntie!
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:42
@sonnycrockett Not simultaneously.
SteveP
1st October 2024, 8:05
Schrödinger’s uncle/aunt might be
Nick T.
30th September 2024, 22:28
This was literally the first response I thought of. It sums it up beautifully. We might as well speculate on if Max Mosley or Johnny Herbert had been the race director. Though I shudder to think of what Herbert would do.
Mike
30th September 2024, 8:07
Props to Keith for increasing the site engagement by poking this hornet’s nest again.
notagrumpyfan
30th September 2024, 9:28
It keeps the repetitive comments coming, good for the cl1cks on this site.
Interestingly it is always Keith who raises this over an over again; Will seems to be over it.
Sonny Crockett (@sonnycrockett)
30th September 2024, 10:46
Steiner’s book has literally just been released and the quote comes from it.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:45
In order to avoid spoilers for the book’s review, I would suggest reading the review may give clues as to why this story might have been presented…
Nick T.
1st October 2024, 5:20
The 13 articles and counting regarding the FLAP is another great example of this. Meanwhile, there are plenty of other interesting topics that could be discussed, which are totally ignored. Seems like they need some new blood. They’ve really only got Will and himself writing.
Craig
30th September 2024, 8:18
AD 2021 remains not just an insult to motor racing but an enormous black mark on F1 as a whole. The excuses and deliberate mis-remembering of what happened to justify it is so far beyond ridiculous it’s hard to know where to start.
AlanD
1st October 2024, 1:16
Craig, I remember my disappointment when I stayed up all night hoping to see Mansell beat Piquet in the decider in Australia, only for Mansell’s tyre to explode spectactularly in the heat of battle. But that’s sport and we live for those highs and lows. I remember the bitter taste at the end of the season where Schumacher won after his broken car collided with Damon Hill’s car, taking them both out of the race and giving Schumacher the championship. I thought that was the worst end to a season I’d ever seen. Abu Dhabi easily surpassed that because this wasn’t cheating by the drivers, it wasn’t a dubious bit of tech on a car, it wasn’t lady luck,…. it was the impartiality of officials that was called into question. As you say, it is a black mark on the sport, as black a mark as you can get, and regardless of who people support, I can’t believe any sports fan wants the season to end that way.
PB
1st October 2024, 22:59
Huge difference between an equipment failure — that’s on the team and part of the sport — and a breaking of the rules by the referee(s).
It’s like the difference between Chris Waddle ballooning a penalty over the bar, and Maradonna’s hand ball being given as a goal.
MichaelN
30th September 2024, 8:36
It seems Steiner forgot about the 2007 Brazilian GP.
You can make a much better case that Whiting is the reason Hamilton isn’t an eight time WDC.
Jere (@jerejj)
30th September 2024, 11:00
How? The 2007 Brazilian GP didn’t feature anything particular, other than Hamilton mistakenly activating the pit limiter, which was all on him rather than Whiting having anything to do with it or anything else/otherwise decisive that happened in that race, so I don’t follow your reference.
MichaelN
30th September 2024, 11:49
The three cars ahead of Hamilton were found to have their fuel under the allowed temperature. A technical irregularity is a clear DSQ in pretty much all cases. The FIA instead settled on not finding “conclusive” evidence. McLaren protested, but as always, protests tend to be rejected so nothing came of it.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:53
The FIA settled on “the official measurement of both index and fuel temperatures was suspect, thus making it impossible to prove or disprove the claim, and McLaren was not therefore in a position to appeal because the necessary evidence was impossible for anyone to obtain”. The official statement from the appeals court did not include a frustrated sigh, but I think the writer was tempted.
A number of changes occurred after that to make such regulations enforceable, in particular the imposition of a different standard meteorological information provider who could be trusted to give accurate index temperatures, and better procedures for measuring the temperature of fuel.
N
30th September 2024, 11:50
Hamilton did not activate the pit limiter, where has that theory even come from. There is onboard footage of what happened, his fingers are nowhere near the pit limiter. He was in 7th gear heading down the back straight, and downshifted going into Turn 4 where his – sequential – gearbox dropped from 7th to Neutral. This was purely a mechanical problem and nothing of his doing.
I’m pretty sure even to this day McLaren have never got to the bottom of the problem, or at least publicly stated it.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:54
It’s a pernicious rumour, boosted by McLaren’s denials of any particular technical failure. Under the circumstances (where McLaren was trying not to find any reason for the FIA to penalise them further), it’s unlikely we will ever know exactly what happened in that moment.
Nick T.
1st October 2024, 5:23
The severity of the penalty on Alonso in Hungary taking in the wider context of why happened is another clear example of how Whiting let alone the stewards were far from perfect then either. Based on the sort of logic applied by Steiner, we can change all sorts of results over F1’s history if we want to say had so and so been making the decisions, XYZ wins XYZ.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
30th September 2024, 10:11
I disagree with steiner (surprise), let me guess a possible decision by whiting: allowing lapped cars to overtake the moment that line appeared saying “lapped cars will NOT be allowed to overtake”, just put “now” instead of “not” as it’s always been, there were enough laps to unlap themselves, and I don’t mean just the cars between verstappen and hamilton, but all, and then we end up with the same outcome.
Jere (@jerejj)
30th September 2024, 11:02
Finishing the race under green-flag conditions but with all lapped drivers still in the mix would’ve been the fairest outcome considering the minimal time left to fully follow the standard procedure, but oh well, everything about the 2021 Abu Dhabi GP feels like something that happened forever ago in motorsport terms, so I haven’t truly cared about the outcome for a while anymore.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
30th September 2024, 13:56
@esploratore1 There wasn’t time – the change from “now” to “not” occurred within half a lap, with the restart happening half a lap after that in order to allow 1 lap of racing. Had the full unlapping played out, the race would have been one lap too short to enable the restart. Mercedes knew it, which was why it didn’t bother pitting Hamilton in the first place.
Alonslow
30th September 2024, 18:27
I disagree, Masi being bad at his job was the reason there wasn’t enough time to unlap the cars in the first place, they were at 56/58 laps when the message with the “not” appeared, it could have easily been “now” and you have Lap 56 and the entire lap 57 for the unlapped cars to catch up to the leaders (which it’s also not necessary to do), with the 58 playing exactly like it did.
The typical arguments to this correct method is that Sainz would be able to “attack” Max and help Lewis somehow which c’mon it was never gonna happen, that season was Merc vs RB no one else got close in pace and the other one is that Latifi’s car was not safely retired from the track in lap 56, but it was, Gasly who was catching up to the pack on Lap 55, passes through the incident a bit after the pack is on 56 and Latifi’s car is pretty much almost out, by the time of the “not” Latifi’s car has been safely retired from the track.
It’s just incompetence from Masi which he “fixed” in his usual manner, Lewis was screwed the moment Mercedes told him to stay out and bet on the SC taking too much time and finish under it.
So I 100% agree with Esploratore, Whiting would have probably been faster calling the SC, allow the lapped cars (all of them) to unlapped themselves on Lap 56, announce the safety car is coming in on lap 57, and there we go, same result no more controversy except for Latifi and if he did on purpose or not.
Phil Norman (@phil-f1-21)
30th September 2024, 11:23
The F1 fan world will still be debating Abu Dhabi 2021 in 2050 probably! The subject never goes away for long does it.
For the record, I think Lewis was absolutely robbed. And I am not a supporter of his especially.
Craig
30th September 2024, 12:14
If the internet was around at the time Japan 1989 and 1990 would still be hotly debated
David BR (@david-br)
30th September 2024, 14:08
@ Craig They still are though!
SteveP
1st October 2024, 8:15
Ah, a man who recalls the days when people used their memory instead of Google or sometimes-correct-pedia
MoogleSlam
30th September 2024, 14:44
I haven’t been able to enjoy F1 the same way since the end of the 2021 season. It’s tarnished. It lost its integrity. I say this, not as a fan of Lewis or Max, but as a fan of justice, and fair and consistent application of the rules. One of the challenging parts is living with something we know is wrong, yet that will never be fixed.
AlanD
1st October 2024, 1:21
Well said
Nick T.
1st October 2024, 5:25
Plenty of decisions have been just as blatantly unfair. It was simply the timing/circumstances that make it appear so much worse.
AlanD
1st October 2024, 14:59
That’s true. If this had happened in the first few races of the season, it would have been annoying but largely inconsequential, and most people would have moved on, though there would always be a few diehards who would bring it up again and again. Sometimes I wonder if people realise that it doesn’t matter what we think, and there is no sense in one side or the other being determined to win the argument, because Max’s name is forever on that trophy, and no amount of moaning about it will change it.
Nick T.
2nd October 2024, 1:51
Precisely.
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
30th September 2024, 17:03
If Charlie were still race director in 2021 i’ve no doubt that Abu Dhabi would have finished under the SC because he’d have followed the procedures (Many of which he was behind implementing) rather than put them aside just to prioritise the show.
I also think we’d have seen far fewer red flag’s than we have because Charlie was of the mindset that the racing should be interrupted only if it was absolutely necessary due to something that couldn’t be covered with a safety car or virtual safety car.
The other thing which Charlie had which I don’t think any of the subsequent race directors have had is the admiration & respect of everyone in the paddock. Charlie wouldn’t BS you or let you BS him & he never would have put up with any of the radio nonsense that went on between Red Bull/Mercedes & Masi through 2021. Even if he’d allowed teams to communicate with him & have it broadcast the first time anyone tried use the fact it was been broadcast to sway his decisions he’d have politely told them to shut up & get on with racing & that would have been the end of it.
The biggest mistake Masi made was letting others influence his decisions….. Or at least allow it to be seen that they were as that made him seem like a pushover which resulted in teams pushing back against him in ways that they never would have Charlie.
Urvaksh (@thedoctor03)
30th September 2024, 20:49
3 “runner-up” call-outs in the last 3 caption comprtitions. When am I going to win one this year?! 😁
Nick T.
3rd October 2024, 6:59
They also selected a very vanilla/safe choice. In my case, I think I’m a bit too critical of RF to get a call out.
vjanik (@vjanik)
30th September 2024, 21:26
Charlie Whiting would have reacted much faster and had all the cars unlap themselves a lap or two earlier, as per the rules. Max would have still won and there would have been no controversy.
JMDan (@danmar)
1st October 2024, 3:14
I’m in awe of how much you guys know about F1. I’m thinking I should stop posting my irrelevant, uneducated one-liners. I wish I had more time to devote to the sport.
AlanD
1st October 2024, 4:30
J, I feel all views are valid and welcome, whether you’ve watched F1 for one race or one lifetime, and one-liners can often be really thought-provoking, so don’t stop posting.
When you’ve watched a sport for a long time, you tend to think things should always be done a certain way, and it sometimes needs a fresh perspective to point out the blindingly obvious, or to challenge the dogma, or to ask the question which sounds like it should be simple but turns out to be crazily difficult to answer. In any internet discussion, anyone can sound like an expert just by knowing what to Google, and sometimes those Google facts are just as wrong as our memories.
I think the thing about F1 compared to many sports is that there are only about 20 races a year, and only about 25 drivers starting races over the course of a season, and everything gets documented in Wiki, lots of highlights on YouTube, so it is much easier to review info than most sports, to find out what people are talking about, to form your own objective opinion.
Nick T.
1st October 2024, 5:30
You’re probably much younger than most of us. In 20 years time you’ll have seen just as much racing and know lots of history as we do currently. I have been watching F1 since the late ‘90s (and had watched most of the races from the 80s and 90s via the internet archive).
However, if you subscribe to F1TV, you can now watch every season in full beginning I think 2003 and watch many races for each season going even further. I envy you for the opportunity to watch it all for the first time. Your opinion of many things will change with all that context.
Illusive (@illusive)
2nd October 2024, 9:43
Make controversial statements, sell your book. You dont have to be a genius.
An Sionnach
2nd October 2024, 21:54
Steiner’s a fool. The rules said that the race director’s decision is final, so what rule was broken? This site repeatedly states that Masi broke the rules. Please specify exactly how this is the case.