The USA hosted world championships rounds every year from the inaugural season in 1950 until it left the streets of Phoenix just over four decades later. The championship is enjoying a surge of popularity in the country now and returns this weekend for its second of three visits this year.
America has had more F1 tracks than any other country, but over half of them are yet to hold more than three rounds. It remains to be seen whether F1’s two newest American races in Miami and Las Vegas will change that.
But which of America’s 13 tracks suited F1 best? And how does its trio of current venues compare to those used in the past? We rank them all below.
13. Phoenix
3 races, (1989-81)
Phoenix deserves its place at the bottom of this list for being one of the most uninspiring venues ever to hold a round of the world championship. In its original, 13-turn guise, only three of its bends were not 90-degree turns, and none of them were what you’d call challenging.
Nonetheless it was capable of producing high drama, such as when Jean Alesi hunted down Ayrton Senna for the lead in the 1990 race, the Tyrrell even briefly displacing the McLaren from the head of the field.
Senna won, though, and would have taken victory in all three races had a technical failure not sidelined him during the 1989 race. Just 18,000 turned up for that event, though local taxi drivers entertained themselves by taking to the track one night, resulting in an inevitable crash.
It didn’t help matters that the inaugural race was scheduled in the height of summer. Phoenix was given the distinction of staging the season-openers in 1990 and 1991, and the latter event took place on a slightly improved track, though some things just can’t be polished. F1’s last visit to Phoenix reputedly drew a smaller crowd than a competing race for ostriches after which F1 was absent from the USA for almost a decade.
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12. Caesar’s Palace, Las Vegas
2 races (1981-82)
The series could scarcely have produced more exciting scenarios for the two title-deciding races. Three drivers went into the inaugural race with a shot at the title, two in 1982.
Yet the local population took little interest in either of the races. Establishing a trend which soon became familiar, the CART IndyCar series replaced F1 after it left in 1982. F1 actually explored the possibility of holding a joint event with the series at one stage, but FISA (now the FIA) did not approve, and even CART’s quicker and more demanding variation of the layout couldn’t make the flawed concept a success.
11. State Fair Park, Dallas
1 race (1984)
Before Liberty Media took over F1, the series made a concerted effort to crack America in the eighties. Bernie Ecclestone, who took responsibility for the series’ promotion by controlling the Formula One Teams’ Association, agreed deals for a series of races on street tracks. What Ecclestone prized above all was a race in New York, but despite optimistically scheduling a race in the city on several occasions, it never happened.
A race in Dallas did go ahead, but just once. The usual requirement for a new F1 track to hold another event on a weekend before the championship arrived was waived, as also happened at other venues around this time. This proved a particularly costly decision in Dallas, as the combination of the July heat and the grunt of F1’s turbo cars tore the track up, leading to a spate of crashes. Keke Rosberg came home the winner after all bar six of his rivals stopped.
This was unfortunate, as the track layout was more varied than several other temporary tracks F1 visited around this time. However the race promoter reportedly absconded with the prize fund, and F1 never went back.
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10. Miami International Autodrome
3 races (2022-24)
Ecclestone’s desperation to get F1 into New York was mirrored by Liberty Media’s eagerness to add Miami to the world championship calendar after it bought the series. It eventually succeeded, but had to compromise its vision of holding a true street race in a downtown venue.
Other series such as CART and Formula E raced there previously, but F1 was unable to overcome local opposition to its original choice of site and instead moved the event to the grounds of the Miami Dolphins’ stadium.
The resulting track offers little to test the drivers and the turn 14-15 chicane ranks as one of the worst pieces of new track design in recent years. “It reminds me of being in a B&Q car park” remarked Lewis Hamilton after his first laps of the track.
9. Detroit
7 races (1982-88)
The F1 calendar grew to three US races last year, but it previously had that many in 1982, when a new race in Detroit joined the calendar. On the face of it, America’s ‘Motor City’ was an obvious place for the world championship to visit, but the Detroit Grand Prix failed to secure a long-term place on the calendar.
The promoters did not endear themselves to the paddock when the track wasn’t ready in time for the start of practice for the inaugural race. Once drivers got going they found the course was, like Phoenix, a largely angular affair.
But the removal of an extremely tight hairpin after Woodbridge Street following its first race improve its flow slightly. It also had a touch of character, the cars passing beneath a tunnel and along the harbour front.
F1 lasted longer in Detroit than several other US races around this time, but by 1989 the race had joined the CART IndyCar schedule. It moved to Belle Isle soon afterwards, but the modern IndyCar series brought the race back to downtown last year, albeit on an even more basic layout.
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8. Indianapolis Motor Speedway Grand Prix circuit
8 races (2000-07)
The rising popularity of CART in the eighties and early nineties was a headache for F1 not just because it took over so many of its former US venues, but even lured away a world champion, Nigel Mansell jumping ship at the end of 1992. However Indianapolis Motor Speedway Tony George harpooned the series by forcing a split between it and his venue’s blue riband 500-mile race. American single-seater racing has since reunited but never recovered.
Soon afterward IMS also landed an F1 round by laying out a grand prix circuit on its infield. It was a largely flat and insipid affair however. F1 was always going to look puny holding a race in a fraction of the space taken up by the venue’s main event, but did they really had to plod through consecutive tight hairpins?
Nonetheless its races attracted reasonable crowds, despite F1 producing two shameful spectacles during its short stay. Ferrari’s effort to engineer a dead heat in 2002 was bad enough, but paled in comparison to what came three years later. Just six cars contested the race as F1 failed to find a compromise after discovering most teams’ tyres were incapable of with standing the forces dealt out by the only one of the oval’s four banked corners the cars ran on.
There was little surprise F1 did not extend its contract after that. The modern IndyCar series now races on a revised and considerably improved version of the course as part of the build-up to its main event.
7. Las Vegas Strip Circuit
1 race (2023)
The newest addition to the F1 calendar gets a slightly generous position on this list having only held a single race which was among the more competitive events of the largely one-sided 2023 season.
The Las Vegas Strip Circuit is basic, but fast. The original layout looked more promising, as the planned 180-degree turn seven would have been tackled at impressive speeds, as would the next two bends. Sadly a chicane was deemed necessary at that point on the circuit.
F1 laid the hype on thickly for the inaugural event, but the achievement of being able to arrange a race in such a spectacular and recognisable venue is undeniable. Whether it will serve up more satisfying races in the future remains to be seen.
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6. Sebring
1 race (1959)
Although the Indy 500 was considered a round of the world championship from 1950 to 1960, it was never run to F1 rules. The first United States Grand Prix took place in 1959 at Florida’s punishingly bumpy Sebring track. At 8.39 kilometres, it was longer than anything F1 races at today.
It was held almost three months after the penultimate round, giving Jack Brabham, Stirling Moss and Tony Brooks plenty of time to mull over the permutations of their three-way title fight. An early delay for Brooks, while Moss retired on lap six, meant Brabham clinched the title.
Poor attendance led race promoter Alex Ullmann to move the event the following year, to…
5. Riverside
1 race (1960)
The compact, winding Californian course also proved a one-off venue for F1 in the USA. It suited F1 cars reasonably well but the race was a damp squib. Brabham had already secured the title again and Ferrari didn’t bother to show up, leaving Moss to dominate proceedings.The track held CART IndyCar races until Bobby Rahal won the series’ final race there in 1983. Dick Simon was fortunate to emerge unscathed from a spectacular aerial crash the year before, caused by tyre failure, which was filmed by a spectator (below). Sadly Rolf Stommelen was not so fortunate the following year, the ex-F1 driver losing his life when a wing failure on his Porsche 935 during an IMSA race caused a huge crash.
Riverside closed in 1989 and developers built over the site, using it for a shopping centre and housing. IndyCar held a non-championship event at the nearby Thermal club circuit earlier this year and the event will be part of its series next season.
4. Long Beach
8 races (1976-83)
In Long Beach, F1 found a street circuit with real character, though it went through several revisions while part of the world championship calendar. Its original incarnation included remarkably steep changes in gradient, but the signature blast around Shoreline Drive remained constant.
With better management, this could have been a precious toehold for F1 in the valuable Californian market. Mario Andretti delivered a home win for the fans in 1977 and won the world championship the year after. The race even became the de facto season-opener in 1981 after a political row stripped the South African Grand Prix of its world championship status.
But Ecclestone failed to heed race promoter Chris Pook’s warning that he would replace F1 with IndyCar unless the championship cut its hosting fee. Pook claimed that prior to F1’s final visit in 1983 Ecclestone even offered to reduce his price from $2.1 million per year to $1.5m. But it was too late.
F1’s last race at Long Beach was one for the ages: John Watson climbed from 22nd on the grid to win, setting a record which still stands. But at the next Long Beach Grand Prix CART machines filled the grid, Andretti on pole position for the 1984 season-opener. He won again, and 40 years later the race still belongs to IndyCar.
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3. Indianapolis Motor Speedway
11 races (1950-60)
The Indianapolis 500 is the greatest spectacle in racing. F1 has lately tried to adopt that phrase for some of its own events, but there was a time when the race was part of the world championship. As it never ran to the same rules as the rest of the series it was always something of an oddity within this context, but the race and track presents a daunting challenging.
That was more true during F1’s spell there throughout the fifties when the death rate at Indianapolis was high. During its time within the world championship Bill Vukovich won in consecutive years and was heading for a third straight triumph when he was involved in a four-car crash and killed. It was the second fatality that weekend after Manny Ayulo crashed in practice.
Few F1 drivers attempted to qualify for the Indy 500 during this time, though Juan Manuel Fangio and Alberto Ascari were notable, high-profile exceptions. After 1960, when F1 cut engine capacities to one-and-a-half litres, the series no longer visited the speedway, but by then it had found a new American home.
2. Circuit of the Americas
11 races (2012-19, 2021-23)
Still the newest permanent racing facility on the Formula 1 calendar today, the Circuit of the Americas deserves to be regarded as a modern classic.
Originally conceived by Tavo Hellmund and motorcycling champion Kevin Schwantz, parts of the track were styled after sequences on other circuits, such as Silverstone’s Maggotts-Beckets corners and Istanbul Park’s famed turn eight. Separated by a couple of decent straights to provide overtaking opportunities, the results is a layout with much to applaud it.
It’s not without drawbacks. The turn 12 to 15 sequence is rather pedestrian, and track limits have been a problem in recent years, though that has been addressed for this weekend’s race. The track surface has been a persistent concern as well, particularly after heavy rain in 2015 damaged the drainage around the track, but the organisers have promised the biggest resurfacing yet ahead of F1’s latest return.
The track has welcomed huge crowds in recent years and is likely to see another this weekend even without a home driver on the grid. The success of this grand prix at a traditional, permanent racing circuit on the outskirts of a major US city challenges F1’s long-held assumption that street races were the best way to present the series to American fans.
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1. Watkins Glen
20 races (1961-1980)
F1’s most enduring venue in America was also its best, and that’s no coincidence. For two decades, an autumn race in leafy, picturesque New York State was a fixture on the calendar.
The original, eight-turn 3.7-kilometre Watkins Glen was extended to 5.4km in 1971, and new pits built. The flowing, cambered layout is among America’s best, alongside other venues the championship has never visited, such as Road America, Road Atlanta and Laguna Seca.
F1 left after the 1980 race as the venue ran into financial trouble and could no longer pay its fee. The son of race promoter Cameron Argetsinger insisted it is “popular fiction” to blame Ecclestone for F1’s departure, instead blaming the debt taken on to finance the 1971 renovations.NASCAR now owns the track and raced there last month, where ex-F1 driver Juan Pablo Montoya made a one-off return. Few drivers on today’s F1 grid have experienced the track, but there is one exception.
Hamilton visited the track for a publicity event when he was still a McLaren driver, in 2011. After lapping it in F1 and NASCAR machinery he told RaceFans the track was “absolutely fantastic” and “a really cool circuit to drive.”
“They don’t make circuits like this nowadays,” Hamilton reflected. “The way they make cambered corners, the different undulations, going uphill, downhill… that makes it so much better to drive.
“Whilst it’s a lot shorter, it reminded me a bit of the Nordschleife in Germany, as it’s a very long circuit. It had very similar characteristics to that I think, which is one of the best circuits – if not the best circuit – in the world.”
There’s no higher praise than that from a racing driver.
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Over to you
What do you consider F1’s best and worst US tracks? Which ones have you visited? Have your say in the comments.
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- Norris did as he was told but which other drivers obeyed – and disobeyed – their teams?
- Hamilton called his last race ‘one of his worst’ – but is it among his 10 poorest?
Erzen (@xenn1)
16th October 2024, 7:50
I’ll just take a moment here and say how thankful i am that COTA came to be. Basically every race there has been a blast and it’s always exciting to watch it. I feel, especially in the last 15 years, it’s been difficult for modern circuits to join Formula 1 and hold their own when compared to classic venues such as Suzuka, Silverstone and Spa. But COTA does that.
It’s both fun to drive (based off what the drivers say and personal experience in racing games) and produces exciting races. And off the top of my head, Sepang (and maybe to some extent Istanbulpark) is the only modern permanent race track that has been able to do that.
HUHHII (@huhhii)
16th October 2024, 9:45
I’ve never liked it. First corner is kinda cool and turns 13-16 gives us some nice on-track battles but all others corners have been copied from elsewhere and track limits are always an issue.
In an ideal world I’d love to see US GP at Road America. And yes, one is enough.
mr a
16th October 2024, 9:53
Really?
It’s my least favourite track on the calendar. Looks like they stole the best bits from Silverstone, Suzuka and Bahrain and banged them together. No character at all, and all the paint is a complete eyesore.
Hate it.
Marcus (@marcusw)
16th October 2024, 11:01
The paint at COTA is rather subtle compared to Paul Ricard in France. Now there’s a circuit that really is an eyesore! I actually felt dizzy watching coverage from there in the past.
mr a
16th October 2024, 11:20
True, it’s nowhere near as migraine-inducing as PR.
Jere (@jerejj)
16th October 2024, 14:26
mr a I never throught I’d read or hear anyone considering COTA as their ‘least’ favorite among all current circuits.
Yes, I get the point about copying & everything, but still a decently enjoyable circuit to drive, not to mention one of the most racing-friendly ones, on average, but each to their own.
MichaelN
16th October 2024, 10:18
It’s an odd track in that it seems quite divisive.
I count myself among those who don’t get the appeal. Its first sector is a watered down imitation of other tracks, there are way too many twisty corners after the big back straight, and the final sector is another lesser version of corners better done elsewhere. It all ends up being quite dull.
Plus it has wasted the opportunity to do something interesting with the local elevation, and like so many American tracks, it’s a real eyesore in that every piece of available land has been turned into a giant parking lot. If they had instead filled the empty space with trees it’d be such a different vibe with shades of Monza and Hockenheim.
Nick
16th October 2024, 18:29
It’s central Texas (30.2672° N latitude), not Italy (45.5845° N) or Germany (49.3196° N). It’s further south than Jerusalem (31.7683° N). It’s also out in the middle of nowhere with no public transportation. Of course there are going to be parking lots next to it.
David BR (@david-br)
16th October 2024, 12:12
@xenn1 I agree, for me it’s a modern classic. I’m sure most agree that the final corners are humdrum but the rest is excellent, the hill start, the top sequence of curves that often gets hit by cross-winds (kind of a Silverstone feel) and the down hill heavy braking/overtaking corners with multiple possible racing lines. I also prefer the setting.
However Watkins Glen would be the best possible addition to Formula 1 from the US. What a track.
David BR (@david-br)
16th October 2024, 12:13
(also prefer the setting to Las Vegas, meant to write)
montreal95 (@montreal95)
16th October 2024, 14:09
Agree. Modern classic indeed. It has everything: elevation changes, fast corner sequences, overtaking opportunities and not just any overtaking opportunities but such that enable wheel to wheel fights for multiple corners at a time. What’s not to like?
No circuit will be 100% loved. But I’m sure in a survey a majority share this view. Bit there always will be detractors. I especially like those arguments that criticize COTA for ripping off some corners of other circuits. Duh! Stealing some of the best corner sequences from other tracks has been a feature for almost as long as race circuit design has been a thing so nearly 100 years.
ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
16th October 2024, 14:20
@xenn1 I also really like it. I personally call the series of s turns the “Rattlesnake Esssesss”, but somehow that hasn’t caught on. :)
AdrianMorse (@adrianmorse)
16th October 2024, 10:08
I never saw a race on the Phoenix circuit, since I only started watching F1 at the end of 1991, but it will forever hold a special place in my heart as the race that would kick off my many seasons of Formula One Grand Prix.
Red Andy (@red-andy)
16th October 2024, 10:39
I don’t think that is an uncommon sentiment – Phoenix was surely far better loved by F1GP players than by anyone who saw a race there in real life.
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
16th October 2024, 13:01
Me too! I have fantastic memories of it for this exact reason. Being a street circuit it showed 3D graphics much better than say Silverstone did, it looked amazing (for the time) and some ways it was my favourite track. I’ve never been to an Ostrich race, but if Geoffs depiction of Phoenix is accurate, then they must be something very special.
José Lopes da Silva
16th October 2024, 13:57
Allow me to undersign this comment. I started watching F1 a little later than 1991, but Phoenix (1991 version) has in fact a very special status among a generation of sim racers that grew up with Geoff Crammond’s work. (And also featured in a couple of 2-D console racing games of the era.)
Moreover, turns 7 and 8 were quite fast and needed some careful tinkering.
Super Nashwan (@squeakywheel)
18th October 2024, 13:20
I came here to say this! I’ve raced that track so many times and I did get watch the last race there as I started following F1 about the same time as you. When I read the headline, I thought “Watkins Glen and COTA will be at the top with Phoenix!” I got two right anyway…
someone or something
16th October 2024, 10:34
I couldn’t keep reading after realising that an oval, literally the least interesting shape a piece of asphalt can have in order to be considered a circuit, outranks a whole lot of race tracks with actual corners. The irony of complaining about the uninspiring Phoenix layout (not disagreeing with that at all), bemoaning the fact that it only had three non-rectangular corners, none of which were challenging! Oh, but ten places further up the ranking, we have a race track that consists solely of unchallenging bends, which are invariably tackled at full throttle (and a downshift for the sole reason that the gear ratios are ridiculously close to each other), connected by straights!
Really grinds my gears.
Nick T.
16th October 2024, 11:35
This was another article clearly thrown together without much research let alone a full race at all
of them having been watched before writing this up, which in turn makes it basically a derivative listicle.
ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
16th October 2024, 14:22
Nick T You comment a lot here nowadays, and rarely do you add anything positive.
Nick T.
17th October 2024, 5:06
I apologize for being critical of poor editorial efforts.
Don
16th October 2024, 14:58
You possibly have never watched the Indy 500, and certainly never have attended a race in person. If you had, you’d understand how ridiculous your post is.
someone or something
16th October 2024, 17:30
If you read my comment, you might understand by how much yours misses the point.
Dav_Daddy
16th October 2024, 16:30
Yes an oval. AKA a place where actual racing occurs.
Let me guess top much passing, drafting and strategy for you? I know you prefer Monaco, an event that is more high speed parade than a race by any reasonable definition.
To each their own I guess. I mean there are some people who like pineapple on pizza too.
someone or something
16th October 2024, 17:35
Why do you feel so offended that you have to resort to speculative insults and poorly-built strawmen to feel better about yourself?
That aspect was unfortunately the only interesting thing about your comment, nothing much of substance worth replying to.
grat
16th October 2024, 17:58
First, the Indianapolis speedway isn’t an oval.It’s four straights connected by varying banked corners, and while superficially, it’s an oval, reality is it isn’t.
Secondly, while grand prix circuits are more complicated (even though they’re still circles), the challenge of racing in close quarters at 200+ miles per hour for 500 laps is not to be underestimated. It’s a different challenge, but it’s still a challenge.
It’s definitely more interesting than say, Caesar’s Palace, and arguably the new Vegas circuit. A case could be made that the Indy 500 is a more interesting race than Monaco, which barring unexpected events, is basically a really fast parade.
We’ve had multiple F1 races this year where the finishing top 5 was very close to the starting top 5, if not identical, so slamming the Indy speedway for being boring is a bit too precious.
anon
16th October 2024, 21:47
someone or something, whilst it would seem your comment is proving somewhat contentious with some posters, the bigger question is whether the Indianapolis 500 really should be on this list if it’s supposed to be about “Formula 1 circuits”.
The article refers to “Formula 1 circuits”, but the Indianapolis 500 never ran to Formula 1 regulations – it was part of the AAA National Championship and ran to entirely separate regulations. It is also worth noting that races that formed part of the World Drivers Championship were not automatically “Formula 1” races, and the two were not interchangeable terms at the time.
A good example would be the misconception around the 1952 and 1953 seasons, where the races that counted towards the World Drivers Championship were Formula 2 races. People wrongly assume that means that Formula 1 used the regulations for Formula 2 when, in fact, the 4.5 litre normally aspirated/1.5 litre supercharged regulations for Formula 1 were not repealed until 1954 and Formula 1 races continued during those years.
What instead happened was that, with the organisers of many of the major races choosing to run to Formula 2 specifications instead, the FIA recognised that very few organisers wanted to run Formula 1 races and simply decided to chose races for the World Drivers Championship that happened to also be Formula 2 events. Formula 1 races still occurred – the 1952 Valentino Grand Prix, for example, or the 1952 Ulster Trophy are some examples of Formula 1 races that occurred during that period – but they were just not defined as World Drivers Championship races.
The Indianapolis 500 might therefore have been allowed to count towards the World Drivers Championship, but given it never operated to Formula 1 regulations, then by definition it should not appear on this list as a “Formula 1 circuit”.
Palindnilap (@palindnilap)
16th October 2024, 10:35
Fair ranking. Watkins Glen wins hands down indeed. Although COTA is a good track I would never have it on #2. Long Beach, Riverside and Sebring all have more character and are more fun to drive – of course, not to mention all those all-great tracks that F1 unfortunately never raced on.
Palindnilap (@palindnilap)
16th October 2024, 10:36
Maybe I should have used the past tense since only Sebring still exists in its original layout.
grat
16th October 2024, 14:28
Not really. Sebring has been modified several times since 1950.
Marcus (@marcusw)
16th October 2024, 11:05
How the hell did Dick Simon manage to walk away from that crash?!!! That must be one of the most spectacular shunts that didn’t actually kill or seriously injure the driver. Think about how rudimentary the safety devices and procedures were back then. He was a VERY lucky boy!
Nick T.
16th October 2024, 11:33
I’ve watched a bunch of these old, awful US street circuits used during the 70s and 80s and Phoenix was nowhere near the bottom in terms of race action. Jean Alesi had an amazing US GP debut there driving a Tyrell. He was wild and audacious as usual, but atypically, he actually pulled off the race and never threw away his race with an inexplicable move. He even made Senna look mortal.
grat
16th October 2024, 14:30
The idea that the Caesar’s Palace track was better than Phoenix robs this list of all credibility.
Nick T.
17th October 2024, 5:07
CP was as desolate as it gets.
Nasir
16th October 2024, 11:37
COTA layout is one of the best on the calendar. Watkins Glen is classic old school circuit located in a beautiful part of New York state. Phoenix 1991 will always be special. I paid $40 for round-trip ticket from California to Arizona on Southwest and saw man with the yellow helmet win the race.
José Lopes da Silva
16th October 2024, 13:57
Phoenix (1991 version) was the first Formula 1 outing of the beloved and sadly forgotten Portuguese driver Pedro Chaves – and also one of the closest he was to overcome 1991 pre-qualifying, thanks to the twisted nature of the track.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
16th October 2024, 13:57
I remember playing Sega Super Monaco GP II as a kid and Phoenix was the first race you played. I remember finding it funny that the layout was like that with all 90 degrees corners, thinking that it must have been a scaled down version for the Sega or something…
Roger Ayles (@roger-ayles)
16th October 2024, 14:07
I’d personally but Miami & Vegas at the bottom primarily because they are both just really uninspiring layouts that follow all the design characteristics & checkboxes that all other modern circuits have and both are also completely lacking any character or other aspect that offers a unique challenge that helps create some interest.
Circuits like Dallas or Detroit were awful but they at least had a bit of character and a bit of a unique feel that helped them stand out a bit & which provided a bit of an extra & unique challenge for cars/drivers.
My personnel list from best to worst would be.
Watkins Glen,
COTA,
Riverside,
Sebring,
Indy Road,
Long Beach,
Pheonix,
Detroit,
Dallas,
Caesar’s Palace,
Vegas,
Miami.
I’d put the Indy oval aside as it’s obviously a very different style of circuit. The 500 is a great race though.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
16th October 2024, 14:09
Boy that double harpin at Indy… the temple of speed and they created that rubbish of an infield!
The Indycar version is better but not really good IMO.
montreal95 (@montreal95)
16th October 2024, 14:20
The Phoenix circuit was awful but nowhere near as awful as that Vegas car park. And let’s not perpetuate the statistical abomination that is the inclusion of Indy 500 in F1 history when it’s clearly a lie. F1 has raced on 12 tracks in the US not 13.
Most of the rankings I do agree with, small adjustments notwithstanding. The real top 3 without the abomination tower above the rest IMO. My rating would be :
12) Caesars palace
11) Dallas
10) Phoenix
9) Miami
8) Indy road circuit
7) Detroit
6) Las Vegas
5) Riverside
4) Sebring
3) Long Beach
2) COTA
1) Watkins Glen
A Practiced Observer
16th October 2024, 16:46
You can call it a lie all day, every day but it doesn’t change the fact that Rodger Ward finished 10th place in the 1959 F1 Drivers Championship due to his victory at the Indianapolis 500 that year.
montreal95 (@montreal95)
16th October 2024, 17:46
Thank you, I will. It was a lie then, it is a lie now, and forever it’ll remain a lie. Not a single real f1 driver ever participated in any of the Indy 500s of the 1950s. And vice versa. It was run to a completely different set of rules and tech specifications. And that makes it… Not Formula 1. Because the very name Formula 1 means racing run in accordance to the specific FORMULA of rules and regulations. End of.
B
16th October 2024, 23:54
Alberto Ascari completed 40 racing laps in the 1952 Indianapolis 500, even missed the Swiss Grand Prix in order to do so. Not only did he take part in the race, he did so in a Formula 1 Ferrari 375 adapted for oval racing. He was able to do this because the AAA regulations of the time were amenable to Formula 1 machinery, with an engine limit of 4.5 litres naturally aspirated and 3 litres supercharged for Indy, versus the F1 limit which was also 4.5 litres naturally aspirated, but 1.5 litres for supercharged engines. The AAA formula was actually identical to the pre-war AIACR formula, they just decided to maintain the status quo when the FIA revised the International Formula for 1947. Ironically this made the Indy 500 the only World Championship race of the 1952 season to feature a pukka Formula 1 car among its starters (every European points race of the 1952-53 seasons was also, as you put it, “Not Formula 1”). Farina and Fangio also made qualifying attempts at Indianapolis between 1956 and 1958. This… “cultural exchange”… went both ways: 1952 Indy winner Troy Ruttman campaigned a 250F in Europe in 1958, and 1959 winner Rodger Ward made the ill-advised decision to race a Kurtis midget in the USGP at Sebring, with a further appearance in more suitable Lotus machinery at Watkins Glen four years later. So as it happens, “real” F1 drivers did race at Indy (or try to) and vice versa.
montreal95 (@montreal95)
17th October 2024, 16:02
I get your point about Ascari, forgot about him and the complete Ferrari dominance that allowed him to skip a real Formula 1 race so nonchalantly.
However your argument about the 1952 Indy 500 that it was the only “real” F1 race is beside the point. Since the rest of the World Championship was run to the F2 rules that year these are the relevant rules and the complete fluke of previous rules car being allowed in a completely different discipline race on a technicality doesn’t make said race a part of the World Championship. There’s other examples of previous rules F1 cars being run in different championships with minor changes so? Mclaren M16 was basically M23 adapted to run the Offy engine. Let’s make the 1970s Indycar races a part of F1 then too?
And regarding Ward, running at Sebring it’s like because Kyle Larson running a one-off at the Indy 500, let’s make that race a part of the NASCAR Championship, why not?
Ruttman was campaigning a European car on European circuits in 1958. That’s completely different. The fact that he also ran the Indy 500 is beside the point. Alonso skipped the Monaco GP to run the Indy 500 in 2017 so?
The fact is these are all minor details that don’t change the main thing. There’s zero logic to consider the Indy 500 a part of the World Championship at any points since it’s beginning in 1950. I was wrong to be do categorical stating “no crossover at all”, but what little crossover there was, it had been anecdotal at best, one-offs and wildcards, so doesn’t change the main argument in any significant way.
B
17th October 2024, 17:21
@montreal95 The Commision Sportive Internationale of the FIA and the motoring press of the period disagree. I didn’t say that Indianapolis was part of the World Championship just because it featured an F1 car, there were many non-championship F1 races in those days. I’m merely illustrating the absurdity of trying to cordon off “Real F1” in a period where the World Championship did not strictly adhere to such a notion. Indianapolis was part of the World Championship because the FIA made it part of the World Championship. Absurd? Definitely, that became apparent almost immediately. But we can’t rewrite history.
AlexS
16th October 2024, 14:29
Typical British bias. The most shameful episode was Coulthard in Mclaren making a on propose false start to block Schumacher.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
16th October 2024, 15:56
Bias or not, that just pales in comparison with 05 and 02.
MichaelN
16th October 2024, 19:06
Wait, people are upset about the 2002 finish? Really? I wasn’t aware that this was ‘a thing’.
Schumacher gifted numerous wins to Barrichello that season, finishing less than a second behind in most cases.
At Indianapolis they were going to have another team finish – this time with Schumacher in the lead – but the drivers misjudged the finish line. No big deal. It’s a total non-issue.
Nick T.
17th October 2024, 5:12
I mean yeah come on. It was lame when it happened and the backlash caused Ferrari to be a lot more thoughtful about when they swapped drivers regardless of rule changes. But only the media and anti-MSC crusaders seem to still care about this event.
Leksa (@leksa)
16th October 2024, 16:34
Mostly agree, except I would put COTA into 7th place. It’s a prototype tilkedrome: wide as an ocean and all too forgiving for mistakes, like Sepang, Istanbul, Sakhir or Shanghai. Once you’ve seen one tilkedrome, you’ve seen them all.
montreal95 (@montreal95)
16th October 2024, 23:04
What? You make a mistake in the esses of the first sector and you’re either gone or you lose so much time you’d wish you’d crashed. You make a mistake in that reverse Istanbul turn 8 and you’re history as well. And even the more Tilkedromish bit in the middle of the track is mistake inducing, prolonged battle conducive and the time waste is significant.
Also, it’s not really a Tilke design at all. Yes his company actually built the thing but the design was by Tavo Hellmund and 500cc (Motogp) World Champion Kevin Shwantz.
An Sionnach
17th October 2024, 0:20
Watkins Glen… what a track! If there was one track that has been on the calendar before that you’d like to see brought back perhaps it would be this one?
I like the footage of Stewart and Cevert discussing what gears to use before getting out there. The rest of that footage is best summarised by Colin Chapman “Cevert. Bloody hell!”.
Illusive (@illusive)
17th October 2024, 7:46
Wait, F1 never raced in Laguna Seca? Its one of my favorite US circuits.
Moshambles (@moshambles)
17th October 2024, 9:07
If they could sort out the runoff zones, I’d happily put COTA in number 1 or 2, but as it is, it get knocked a few places for me. I can’t get too excited about car’s going round a circuit like that, even if it has produced some good racing over the years.
Le Jimster (@lejimster82)
17th October 2024, 16:43
I’m not sure if I’ve seen a single seater race at Watkins Glen, but from the onboards I have seen of it.. It seems quite narrow so I’m not sure it’d be a great track for modern F1.. For the period F1 raced there it would be great though as the cars were lighter and smaller.
I was never a fan of the Indianapolis race if I’m honest tbh, I guess having it fit inside the oval limits the type of corners etc.. Also the race in 2005 was it? Really left a bad taste in the mouth.
I really like Cota. I like how it wasn’t just another Tilke “tick the boxes” design and they travelled around all the classic tracks to come up with a design. Adding in elevation changes to give it character also makes a big difference imho.
Osvaldas31 (@osvaldas31)
17th October 2024, 17:48
My personal favorite is Indianapolis in the 00s. I liked watching it because it had that bend turn leading to the straight – it was so unusual for F1 back then and made great orvertaking. I’d like a race in New York though, it’d be a blast and would be much better than Miami.
Pinak Ghosh (@pinakghosh)
17th October 2024, 19:26
Would have definitely liked to see how ground effect cars handled the corkscrew in Laguna Seca. Also wouldn’t mind if Sebring was raced again.
kcrossle (@kcrossle)
18th October 2024, 3:38
Here in Western New York State the leaves are turning, there’s a bit of a chill in the air, and an occasional scent of wood smoke may delight your nostrils.
It’s the Watkins Glen USGP time of year.