Mercedes team principal Toto Wolff was unimpressed with the stewards’ decision during the United States Grand Prix.
Wolff described the calls as “biased” after his driver George Russell was given a five-second time penalty for forcing Valtteri Bottas off at turn 12.The stewards also handed Lando Norris a penalty for overtaking Max Verstappen outside of track limits at the same corner as they fought over third place in the dying stages of the race. However Verstappen avoided a penalty for forcing Norris wide at turn one at the start.
Russell was unimpressed with his penalty reacting with an astonished: “What?” when told of it during the race. Shortly afterwards Wolff came on his radio and told him: “Total joke, George, with the penalty. Total joke.”
At the end of the race Russell asked his team whether Verstappen had been penalised for the incident at the start of the race. Wolff answered: “No he didn’t get a penalty.
“And at the end Lando got a penalty for being forced off and overtaking on the outside. I guess it’s a bit biased decision-making but, you know, not surprised.”
The stewards ruled Russell failed to leave enough width for Bottas’ car on his outside. “The Driving Standard Guidelines provide that when overtaking on the inside the driver must not force the other car off the track and must leave a fair and acceptable width for the car being overtaken,” they noted. “This did not occur on this occasion.
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“However in mitigation, a five-second penalty is imposed instead of the standard 10-second penalty because the stewards determine that the forcing off track was not deliberate, and the driver of car 63 [Russell] was in control of the car at all times.”
Verstappen declined to comment on Norris’ penalty when asked about it after the race. “I have my opinion, but I don’t need to say it here,” he said. “I’ll let the stewards do their thing.”
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2024 United States Grand Prix
- McLaren insist stewards made ‘provable error’ after losing bid for review of Norris’ penalty
- Why McLaren’s focus on Verstappen’s driving failed to overturn Norris’ penalty
- Stewards reject McLaren’s request to review Norris’ United States GP penalty
- McLaren know Norris’ penalty is likely to stand – so what do they hope to gain?
- McLaren request review of Norris’ penalty for off-track pass on Verstappen
Patrick (@anunaki)
20th October 2024, 22:18
It’s all about where you are at the apex. That’s the rule
hunocsi (@hunocsi)
20th October 2024, 22:20
It’s not difficult to be ahead at the apex if you release the brakes and go for a different corner.
Robert (@rob8k)
20th October 2024, 22:26
going to look forward to drivers just lunging into corners and going off but claiming they made apex first
oweng (@oweng)
20th October 2024, 22:26
Which was a point finally made by Jenson Button thankfully on the sky coverage after analysis said it was ok because Verstappen was ahead at the apex. If the rule is as simple as that then the rule needs changing because all the defending driver has to do is brake late enough to be ahead at the apex no matter if it means they make the corner or not.
Patrick (@anunaki)
20th October 2024, 22:27
Well as you can see that pays off and both drivers can do that.
The rules were applied the same today for all drivers.
James
20th October 2024, 22:27
Agreed, the stewards need to exercise some common sense, if the defending driver doesn’t make the corner then they’ve gained an advantage by going off the circuit
Charlie Payne
20th October 2024, 22:36
Spot on. How can the stewards not recognise this. It’s not that complicated.
Grapmg
20th October 2024, 22:39
That is how the rules are defined if you are ahead of the Apex you should be given space. So if you compare all these incidents you also have to look at the relative positions at the apex.
David BR (@david-br)
20th October 2024, 22:29
@anunaki I thought the rule was you can force off (unless it’s a Red Bull: Norris versus Perez in Austria some time back) but you have to keep a wheel on track while doing the dirty deed. Which Verstappen didn’t.
But really who knows. They just make it up as they go along anyhow.
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
20th October 2024, 22:38
I think that Russel was ahead at the apex. I have no idea why they penalised him.
Jordi Casademunt (@casjo)
20th October 2024, 23:41
Russell was slightly behind at the apex actually. But Russell actually makes the corner and doesn’t go off-track, so he wouldn’t have gotten a penalty if he had braked 5-10m later and had gone off-track.
Brilliant rule making.
Grockle (@bennyh1)
21st October 2024, 6:33
Yes this. The stewards are basically encouraging dive bombing
Kribana (@krichelle)
20th October 2024, 22:20
LOL. Toto was really trying hard to hide something there
Mayrton
21st October 2024, 6:53
The level of childishness is getting ridiculous at Toto.
Nick T.
20th October 2024, 22:21
Yeah, we know British drivers are always getting unfair penalties. The Lando penalty was absurd because it resulted from him basically being forced off. They should have both received offsetting penalties, which would have seen Lando finish ahead. Max also has seemed like the only non-Brit who the stewards seem to be terrified of giving a penalty to. Maybe cause of Jos’ violent history.
Tommy Scragend
20th October 2024, 22:59
If Norris had been a bit smarter he’d have come back on track behind Verstappen. Then Verstappen may have got the penalty for forcing Norris off.
Norris’ mistake was keeping his foot in round the outside and coming back on on front.
Craig
20th October 2024, 23:15
They would have made up an excuse to not give Verstappen a penalty, just as they made up an excuse to give Norris one.
Niljo
20th October 2024, 23:34
Will Norris was in for a penalty either ways, did you guys forget the moving under braking? So FIA I think were considering either this or that.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 4:37
They would not make up an excuse to give Norris one. They’ve been lenient with him this season. However, they’ve also been overly lenient with Max. Max, Norris and Lewis seem to all be especially immune from penalties normally.
F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
20th October 2024, 22:23
Russell was clearly behind at the Apex and so was Norris – that is the key in steward decision.
Additional in case of Norris he never ever would have made that corner even if Max managed a tighter line – he carried way too much speed going into the corner – so Norris put himself off the track to make the overtake rather than being forced off.
Talking about bias – if the roles were reversed easily more than half the comments made on this site today trashing the Norris time penalty would have been inversed and supporting the time penalty Max would have gotten.
Addme (@dontme)
20th October 2024, 22:27
Well, it’s hard to know if Norris could make the corner as Verstappen braked so late he would never made it and deny Norris any chance, forcing him off the track with him. Like the guy above said, it’s easy to be first at the apex if you aren’t planning to make the corner.
lynn-m
20th October 2024, 22:49
All you need to do is look at how much further into the runoff Lando went to know that he’d have likely run off regardless of where max was.
He did also get on full throttle basically as soon as he went onto the runoff so it was clear what he was doing.
As to Max. when you are tight on the inside your always going to run out a bit wider as you only have so much steering lock. you look at his steering position and throttle trace and he was full lock & off the throttle so it’s not as if he opening up the steering or accelerated to push lando off.
Addme (@dontme)
20th October 2024, 22:59
No we don’t know, that is why it’s called speculation
Robert (@rob8k)
20th October 2024, 22:28
The first to apex rule is dumb. So we just going to have drivers racing to the apex and not making any attempt to make corner.
F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
20th October 2024, 22:39
Oh I agree the rule is dumb but it is the current rule and thus its gets applied consistently that way by the stewards.
As said if the roles were reversed many would have called the penalty justified and praised the stewards for being consistent applying the existing rule – yet now because it is Norris getting the penalty against Max the stewards are called out in their eyes being inconsistent and bad stewards.
That same “first at apex rule” prevented Russell from getting a penalty hitting Max back in Baku in 2022.
By the way I am curious if Toto is getting some kind of penalty – if a driver would have made his comment on the radio he likely would have gotten a penalty for calling the stewards not smart – so why not the same for a team principle.
Robert (@rob8k)
20th October 2024, 22:49
I don’t think they collided in Baku 2022 but they did in 2023 and Max was ahead at apex.
Mayrton
21st October 2024, 7:04
The fact that there is a debate on this is staggering and reconfirms the uselessness to go into any debate about British F1 drivers. It simply can’t be the case they ever make a single mistake. It is impossible since they are flawless. If a verdict is somehow against them it is a conspiracy and utterly unfair. There is just no room to consider any other view.
Terrion (@terrion)
20th October 2024, 22:23
We all do, Toto. We all do.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 9:30
No I don’t. I trust the stewards to be objective and non biased. If they had ruled differently than the other half of the fans (and driver/team) would have complained. No reason to call bias as it assumes it’s based on the stewards having a favourite driver or team and that sounds redicoulous to me. Everybody can have their view the steward applied the rules and explained their decision that’s it.
MichaelN
20th October 2024, 22:26
Everyone knows the team principals lobbied for leniency on the opening lap.
Everyone knows the team principals are the first to call for “hard racing” when the FIA enforces the actual ‘no crowding’ or ‘track limits’ rules.
These guys are so tiresome. And Wolff, Horner and Brown even more so.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 4:41
Yup. Have we EVER seen these guys not complain when their drive got got a penalty or likewise not say “that was the right call” when their driver got off with no penalty for something that many felt should have been penalized? No. I dare say the media shouldn’t give comments like these oxygen, but there are clicks and comments to be had.
Red Andy (@red-andy)
20th October 2024, 22:26
I do think the Russell penalty demonstrates the case for more dynamic, restorative penalties in F1 rather than the standard 5- or 10-second variants. If you’re in a Mercedes, of course you’re going to cheat to get past a Sauber, because you know you’ll make back far more time than any penalty will cost you.
For me the standard penalty for an illegal overtake should be a stop/go penalty of whatever the gap is between you and the car you overtook at the time the penalty is issued. That way the trundle down the pit lane becomes the ‘penalty’ part of the equation and the stationary time is putting you back in the position you would have been in had you given the place back as you ought to have done. One or two of those penalties and you’d probably never need to issue one again, because it would be much more efficient just to give the place back.
Grapmg
20th October 2024, 23:11
I agree a stop and go or drive through is much better than these 5 or 10s penalty s. In MotoGP you have the long lap penalty which cost probably between 5 to 10s maybe F1 should look at that as well. But the best thing still is natural track limits (gravel or grass) and let them race and limit the penalty’s to “real” incidents.
AlanD
21st October 2024, 3:00
In F1, we used to have a long lap penalty, in the form of a drive through penalty, and which had to be served within three laps. I feel the shift to time penalties was utterly stupid.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 9:35
Yes but a drive through is a harsh penalty and cost you almost 20s. So a long lap is a more lenient penalty that cost you somewhere between 5-10s
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 4:42
Exactly. Couldn’t agree more, Red. However, we need to ensure there’s a rule where Alonso automatically gets a 20-second for anything he does. It’s only fair after all.
Jere (@jerejj)
20th October 2024, 22:32
I agree. Inconsistency, not only in whether a penalty gets applied or not for gaining an advantage off-track, but also for pushing off track per se, in which case even lap 1 shouldn’t be treated differently.
BasCB (@bascb)
20th October 2024, 22:35
Yeah, it get’s a bit annoying how haphazardly it seems to be regulated.
F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
20th October 2024, 22:43
Which inconsistency – the rules applied consistently by the stewards – with a key decision element being who was first at the Apex. Turn 1 of lap 1 the team principles said there should be more leniency and only extreme examples are punished – also that is applied pretty consistently – Albon was not penalized for hitting someone because it was turn 1 lap 1.
Now personally I think the Apex first rule is dumb but it is the current rule so it needs to be applied and used.
Lee1
20th October 2024, 23:08
Sainz was ahead at the apex but max did not get a penalty. Russel was ahead the apex and got a penalty….
Where is the consistency again?
I am sorry but there used to be a rule where if you also did not make the corner then you were judged to. It be in control and so we’re the one that got the penalty for forcing the other driver off. Where did that rule go? Otherwise anyone can get ahead at the apex by simply leaving your foot on the accelerator.
Riccard
20th October 2024, 22:38
Whatever the rights and wrongs of the penalties — bigger picture, if Max and Lando keep finishing next to each other, Max wins the title.
F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
20th October 2024, 22:48
If Lando wins all remaining races and Max finishes 3rd in all races Lando will only be champion if he gets 3 or more of the 5 remaining FLAP points.
I think the key factor in who wins the WDC is whether Ferrari and/or Mercedes get ahead of Lando in 1 or more races OR if Ferrari and/or Mercedes get between Lando and Max in multiple races.
Lee1
20th October 2024, 23:02
Lando will not get fastest laps and red bull will.make sure their other team takes them away if required.
Jere (@jerejj)
21st October 2024, 6:43
Lee1 Or just Perez if he’s already finishing outside the top 10.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 4:46
FLAP has been eliminated. And Lando’s odds of winning the WDC were already 100:1 even before this round. It’s why I find the media’s breathless reporting the “championship battle” so disingenuous and why I found the furor over the single point he lost due to Ricciardo so very, very silly.
Jere (@jerejj)
21st October 2024, 6:43
Nick T. In case you forgot or didn’t notice, the FLAP will be removed ‘after’ this season rather than any sooner.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 10:04
My bad. I thought I saw a quote from Lando saying he thought it shouldn’t be eliminated during the middle of the season. I also saw a bunch of people commenting as such. I made the mistake of trusting the public, which is always a losing proposition.
MacLeod (@macleod)
21st October 2024, 8:18
@jerejj is right the FLAP will be removed next season. But still Ocon had the FLAP and didn’t get a point Lando would never get it this GP as there were a lot of drivers pitting later (2 stops)
Gusm.ai
21st October 2024, 19:39
VER is not even racing NOR, he is racing against a DNF.
Unless VER gets zero points, his usual performance would allow him to finish, at the worst, 2 or 3 posistions behind NOR.
Now, VER just need to finish races, which means he can always got a 4th or better, forcing NOR to perform better than him and, as in last sunday, beter than Ferrari.
Gusm.ai
21st October 2024, 19:43
The key factor is VER not getting a DNF.
Other than that and barring some late race disaster, we can expect VER to get a 5th or better.
IN this casa NOR would need a 3rd or better in every race, which is not a given
drmouse (@drmouse)
20th October 2024, 22:49
I was sure they decided back in 2019 that, if the driver on the inside didn’t make the corner, then the other is not deemed as gaining any advantage.
drmouse (@drmouse)
20th October 2024, 22:49
*didn’t make the corner either
drmouse (@drmouse)
20th October 2024, 22:55
2021, not 2019.
Lee1
20th October 2024, 23:01
You forget that the rule only applies if you are not max.
Tiaki Porangi
20th October 2024, 22:52
Max has been getting away with such driving for years.
No surprises there.
MichaelN
20th October 2024, 23:56
All of them have. The blatant ignoring in F1 of one of the principal FIA rules on circuit racing – no crowding a competitor off – based on the flimsiest of excuses, that being a race director’s PowerPoint on overtaking, has been one of the main reasons F1 has such poor battles. Cars going back and forth corner after corner happens all the time in other forms of racing, but F1 and it’s adjacent series have sadly gone Full Senna.
Aquila_GD
20th October 2024, 22:56
Norris deserved the penalty. Statements like this from Wolff are not helpful and should ideally be fined
Lee1
20th October 2024, 22:59
So did verstappen deserve a penalty for overtaking sainz off track at the same.corner or for forcing Norris off track at the first corner?
Do you not think Norris had nowhere to go as max just lost control of his car (as he also did not make the corner)?
MacLeod (@macleod)
21st October 2024, 8:21
Actually turn 1 Max made the corner (very small but was on the line) overtaking Sainz I don’t know it seems i missed that.
Beepbeep
21st October 2024, 0:21
Oh well… at least McLaren are absolutely thrashing Red Bull in the constructors now.
AlanD
21st October 2024, 3:12
When I heard Russell had been penalised, I didn’t have any view at that time on whether it was deserved or not, but it seemed wrong that he could take the penalty and scamper off in pursuit of the next person up the road, i.e. it was to his advantage to perform an illegal overtake, rather than take several laps to overtake by skill. I’m not suggesting that Russell consciously decided to do that, but that was the way it worked out. Imagine we had a race where the leader was driving out of his skin, skillfully defending against a much faster car in second place, had been holding off the challenger for five laps, with five still to go. How yould you feel if the second place driver blatantly cut the chichane so he could race off into the distance and negate any time penalty. I think I’d be shocked if that happened, but it seems the rules wouldn’t prohibit that. Would people justify it by calling it a “professional foul”?
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
21st October 2024, 4:09
Bias? Really, is that what you call an entire career of writing your own rules and doing your own thing without any supervision? If anyone made a video of Max and other drivers, the FIA should just close its doors and they should commit harakiri which is not a bad thing now that I think about it. It would be kinda decent if tomorrow morning we hear that the entire FIA headquarters committed harakiri in objection to F1 stewarding over the past 3 years.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 5:02
Indeed. I bet Toto wasn’t complaining when Hamilton got a no-call after t-boning half the field in Miami. Nor Brown when Lando jumped the start in Saudi and got no penalty while Alonso got a penalty for just being slightly to the left in his box in the same GP the year before. Nor Horner when Max was veering all over the braking zone in Austria and many other times. The following factors seem to be in play too often:
-stewards being afraid to give a penalty to a big star
-afraid to give any penalty in the final laps because “let it be decided on the track!”
-using precedent as a crutch rather than common sense in high pressure moments like with the silly Norris penalty today
-the result of the incident (Alonso/Russell) or a steward just hating a driver (Alonso/Russell)
-stewards allowing a driver’s reputation bias their decision
None of those things should be happening.
Mayrton
21st October 2024, 6:56
It is very simple and clear cut there is a default: If an UK driver is involved in whatever he is always innocent. Any outside of the UK driver is always to blame. I do not understand why we need so many comments to establish that. A debate is also futile. Just stick with the default. It has been like this for decades.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 10:16
There is a pro-British bias to the stewarding and the media, but you don’t help your cause by acting as if Max has never deserved a penalty or that it requires bias to argue Lando’s penalty was wrong. And, again, I’m saying this as someone agrees there is a pro-British bias, unlike the majority on here. It’s also a bit rich for a Max fan to cry wolf when it comes to stewarding bias since Max has been treated just as leniently as Lewis and Lando. Possibly more so.
Mayrton
24th October 2024, 9:41
Have you ever heard of exaggerating to make a point ;-) . Of course Max has had his share of deserved penalties. Wouldn’t be much of a racing driver if not exploring the boundaries of the regulatory framework, wouldn’t it? It does require bias by the way to argue Lando’s penalty was wrong. It was a very clear cut case of overtaking off track which is always illegal.
slowmo (@slowmo)
21st October 2024, 13:50
If the leading driver leaves the track then that driver should cede the position for making a mistake, as long as the driver behind had any part of their car alongside on corner entry. This is the simple rule change they need to make to stop the Verstappen I’ll brake after you defence method. That way it gives a small advantage to the attacker that they can risk braking later without consequence. The current method whereby drivers are just moving in braking zones and clearly easing off the brakes to run drivers off to make the apex cannot continue.
The overtaking rules are wrong and have been for years since they tried to accommodate Verstappen’s aggressive driving style. Don’t change the rules, apply the penalties to Verstappen and similar drivers until they fall in line.
Steven Williamson
23rd October 2024, 5:00
FIA = Fédération Incumbent Assistance