As Lando Norris spent lap after lap trying to prise third place from Max Verstappen’s hands, surely everyone knew what was coming.
On lap 52, Norris finally nosed ahead in the DRS zone approaching turn 12. This was crucial, for everyone knows that under F1’s driving standards guidelines, if a driver is overtaking on the outside and gets ahead at the apex, their rival on the inside must leave them room.This didn’t happen. Verstappen not only failed to leave room for Norris, he didn’t have enough room for himself, straying beyond the track limits at the corner exit.
Both motored on, Norris now ahead. McLaren, believing he had won the corner and was entitled to the position, told him he did not need to relinquish the place.
Red Bull argued Norris had overtaken their driver outside the track. The stewards agreed with them, handing Norris a five-second time penalty which cost him a podium place and, crucially, a six-point swing in the championship.
The stewards’ decision showed McLaren correctly identified the key issue at stake: Whether Norris had been ahead at the apex. However they ruled Norris “was not level with car one [Verstappen] at the apex.”
The footage of the incident corroborates this. Verstappen, despite being on the inside and therefore facing a tighter line, arrives at the corner at a higher speed than Norris. That puts him on a line which carries him beyond the limits of the track.
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Norris arrived at a slower speed and had more room to make the corner. Whether he, like Verstappen, had over-committed and wasn’t going to make the turn is something only F1 drivers, not mere mortals like us, can know. But his line and speed indicate he was capable of making the corner and from the footage it appears the only reason he couldn’t get around it was the RB20 sliding off-track alongside him.
“We think you were ahead at apex,” said Joseph at first. He later began a response: “Our opinion is, you were ahead at apex, both cars went off track…” after which Norris talked over him. “Yeah, he also went off, so… It was clear,” said the driver.
McLaren’s thinking about the facts of the situation became clouded by their unhappiness at Verstappen going off the track to defend his position, Interlagos 2021-style. It’s always easy to analyse this sort of thing in retrospect, but no doubt meetings are already underway at Woking where rooms full of people are scrutinising still frames of turn 12, lap 52 and muttering, “yes, but Verstappen was ahead at the apex.”
Drivers aren’t allowed to overtake outside the track. This situation has happened many times before and the rules regarding it are well established.
But should drivers be allowed to defend their position by going off the track and forcing their rival off with them? This is much less common – Verstappen practically has a patent on it.
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The stewards’ decision shows them grappling with its implications and vainly trying to avoid contradicting themselves. They view Norris as being both in the wrong for going off the track, yet in the right for being forced off: “Car four [Norris] had little alternative other than to leave the track because of the proximity of car one.”
Given that, it’s impossible to understand the stewards’ logic in considering it acceptable for a driver defending their position who’s fallen behind a rival that they are allowed to run both cars off the track.
McLaren shouldn’t have told Norris to stay ahead of Verstappen and the stewards had to penalise him. But the stewards should also have addressed the implications of Verstappen’s unusual defensive move, much as they did when Fernando Alonso pushed the limits too far in Australia earlier this year. At the very least, an acknowledgement was needed that the current driving guidelines are inadequate to cover this kind of move, and require updating for the future.
This kind of situation hits a nerve with fans for many reasons. It shows the deficiencies of asphalt run-offs which F1 has expunged from other tracks but, sadly, not the otherwise excellent Circuit of the Americas. Yet another battle for position is resolved by the stewards, not the competitors. And the decision ultimately prevented the championship from closing up.
Above all, it was an unwelcome reminder of how F1’s stewarding went to pot in the final races of 2021, when it seemed the only issue at stake in every decision which was made was: ‘How can we keep the championship alive?’ At least that accusation couldn’t be levelled at those who made yesterday’s call.
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F1 has made significant improvements in its stewarding since then. Drivers now have a codified set of guidelines they can refer to (it is, however, highly regrettable the FIA chooses not to publish them). The stewards explain not only their decisions but how they determine the scale of the penalty.
As in all sports, refereeing is always going to be contentious. F1 has improved its system incrementally and should continue to. On this occasion it missed an opportunity by failing to point out that just as drivers are not allowed to gain a position by going off the track, nor should they be allowed to defend one.
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2024 United States Grand Prix
- McLaren insist stewards made ‘provable error’ after losing bid for review of Norris’ penalty
- Why McLaren’s focus on Verstappen’s driving failed to overturn Norris’ penalty
- Stewards reject McLaren’s request to review Norris’ United States GP penalty
- McLaren know Norris’ penalty is likely to stand – so what do they hope to gain?
- McLaren request review of Norris’ penalty for off-track pass on Verstappen
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 12:05
There’s a simpler way to put this: they failed to use discretion or common sense. They also boxed themselves into a corner by being absurdly “forced a driver off track” penalty happy that race with more than one of the penalties being highly questionable. Had they been nimble and on their toes, they would have issued both of them time penalties. And they do have the discretion and latitude to do any of the above as we’ve seen with them issuing time penalties that have varied in severity from race-to-race for the same exact offense.
Nick T.
21st October 2024, 12:07
I need to point out that I’m 50% wrong because the very penalty they boxed themselves in on precedent was not issued, which makes the situation all the more ludicrous.
JackL
21st October 2024, 16:08
I agree with the common sense part. But I thought that the regulations were clear, that if a driver on the outside of the corner has his front axle at least alongside the front axle of the car on the inside, he’s entitled to a car’s width. Im surprised that that wasnt enforced. Throughout the race we saw drivers just running other drivers off the road even when that was the case. Which is frustrating, because the next sequence of corners would’ve given us the side by side, enthralling racing that fans have been aching for.
falken (@falken)
21st October 2024, 20:26
Oh my, no :)
Listen to the race review / rant on Missed Apex podcast, for example :)
Esteban
21st October 2024, 22:09
That’s nowhere in the regulations, but in the “overtaking guidelines” that are kept private.
ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
22nd October 2024, 1:59
Good game.
Robbie1
22nd October 2024, 16:19
@nick T
Why should Max get a 5 sec penalty for a track limit infringement?
It’s very simple: The driver who is ahead at the apex is not required to leave any space for the other car, thus making it impossible to force another driver off track.
Hence, no penalty for Max apart from a track limit infringement.
A 10 second penalty for Norris for leaving the track and gaining an advantage.
So the real question is: why did Norris only get a 5 second penalty? (and no penalty for what was clearly very erratic moving under braking)
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
23rd October 2024, 11:05
I think you mention good points that all illustrate the inconsistency of how driving standards and track limit violations are policed.
We had Verstappen vs. Sainz where the car on the outside retook the position off track despite being behind at the apex without penalty. We had Norris vs. Verstappen where the car on the outside retook the position off track despite being behind at the apex with penalty.
We had Russel who was handed a penalty for pushing someone off track while being slightly behind at the apex. Than we had Tsunoda who was handed a penalty for pushing someone off track despite being clearly ahead at the apex.
We had Gasly who got only a five seconds penalty for ignoring track limits completely without the mitigating circumstances Norris and Verstappen had (the car on the inside didn’t make the corner).
Than we had Norris erratic and late defense in T1 which definitely was worth a black and white flag.
These rules don’t work or/and are applied arbitrarily. It’s probably time to go back to scratch or to the let them race mentality and more natural track limits like grass and gravel.
BasCB (@bascb)
21st October 2024, 12:10
Yeah, solid take.
I am not sure it even made sense to give the spot back though, since the stewards would have most likely just gone on to judge “no further action needed” here, especially since it was close to the end of the race. And even with another opportunity that might have still come up, Max would just have done the same again. At least Norris avoided clashing like they had in Austria and it ended pretty much how it would have anyway in the end.
Wholly agree that they cannot let a driver get away with this defensive “drive you off the road” thing, especially when he doesn’t even do the “one smidgen of a wheel still on track” thing.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
22nd October 2024, 2:05
They won’t change. They have been letting Max run people off the track for years. No beef w/ Max the man, but the Stewards have set the precedent, and everyone with any sense should be exercising this right to everyone else in the field. Because its completely legitimate behavior.
Robbie1
22nd October 2024, 16:23
Don’t make me laugh man, basically all drivers race like Max and the precedent has been there for ages.
Nothing to do with Max.
Only thing that matters is that fanboys fail to see the truth:
Basically all drivers move under braking.
Basically all drivers push each other wide.
Basically all drivers like hard racing.
Basically all drivers whine.
Basically all drivers are almost always innocent.
But most drivers don’t crash into their rivals at Copse and send them to hospital.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
26th October 2024, 6:35
The truth is thicc. Feel free to cry all you want.
Osnola
22nd October 2024, 7:20
Thats not how it works.
Ver got a track limit warning for his leaving the track. But as it was only his second one it did not matter.
Norris would have got his 4e one ( maybe fifth depending on lap one)
So still norris was lucky.
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 7:53
I think turn 1 was deleted for all drivers.
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 7:52
I think Math & Tommy had a guest who explain the only thing they check is who is ahead at the apex when the overtook party is ahead they stop WHAT happens after that.
And that is what the Stewards looked at and if the overtaking party goes beyond the track AND does not give the place back it’s a clear penaulty. Does that feel wrong yes but it seems the rules are clear which means divebombing pays off.
That is why so many drivers (Max wasn’t the only one) breaked so late in that corner to get ahead in the apex and if the overtaking party overtake outside the track they have to give the place back.
Seems Max knows the rules …..
Doh
23rd October 2024, 7:54
Being ahead at the apex is a ridiculous rule. As you explained it means all you have to do is brake late so that you’re ahead, with no regard to staying on the track or crashing into your opponent. What a dumb sport.
Pietje Puk
21st October 2024, 12:14
Now here’s where you go wrong, Lando wasn’t ahead at the apex. Max was late on the breaking leaving him ahead of Lando at the apex. One could argue the “ahead at the apex” rule is a stuppid rule because it encourages divebombing by the inside driver to get back ahead at the apex, but it is how the rule is (and enforced several times before).
grat
21st October 2024, 20:24
Max has perfected the divebomb into the corner so it’s “his” corner. The fact that he’d never manage the turn without bouncing off the other car is irrelevant to the stewards.
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 7:54
That is correct (as long he doesn’t collide)
The Dolphins
22nd October 2024, 21:06
And in the title fight it’s not in Lando’s advantage (nor was it in Lewis’ advantage) to remain on track instead of avoiding the crash by running wide.
PaulM (@pmelton)
21st October 2024, 21:47
I think this is another situation where Max is exploiting the lack of clarity within the current set of rules. He knows that he can just ease off on the brakes and roll up the inside of a competitor without ever intending to make the corner. He did it twice to Lando in the last race, and has done this multiple time to other racers over the years. Would be great if the FIA create some clarification on this which prevents this behavior.
Nick T.
22nd October 2024, 7:00
Discretion needs to be used. You can’t totally depend on the ahead at the apex rule, especially if the other car rolls off the brakes to ensure they can run the other driver off, especially when they don’t even make the corner themselves. It’s clear when a driver is forcing someone off through unsporting driving. Hence the need for common sense and discretion to be used. However, this is also requires we carefully select stewards to avoid “stewards” like Johnny Herbert using the discretion they do have in a dishonest manner.
drmouse (@drmouse)
22nd October 2024, 9:56
But it was also established, after Brazil 2021, that they must make the corner for this to apply. ANYONE can be ahead at the apex if they abandon any attempt to stay on track at the exit of the corner.
Doh
23rd October 2024, 8:02
Like I said, it’s the same problem from 2021 that wasn’t dealt with properly then and clearly still isn’t being dealt with properly. Austria and now too. Yeah we want to see racing but this isn’t racing it’s just let see who can avoid a crash. Only difference to 2021 is that now the majority don’t like it lol. Fickle fans
Jim from US (@jimfromus)
21st October 2024, 12:24
The problem was that the stewards allowed about 5 of these incidents to go completely unpunished until RUS was given a penalty and RUS stayed on track. Toto called the stewards out on it so from then on the stewards were cornered into making a decision. Also people are incorrectly saying the VER-SAI incident was lap 1 turn 1 but it wasn’t. It just happened in the first few laps when the stewards were allowing it.
Doh
23rd October 2024, 8:02
Which 5 were they?
Derek Edwards
21st October 2024, 12:38
If you penalise a driver properly, promptly and effectively for forcing another off the track then there’s far less of a necessity for the driver behind to pass off the track and then stay in front in the hope that they won’t in turn be penalised.
Doh
23rd October 2024, 8:04
More proof that Lewis deserved that title more, wasn’t not correctly punished in Jeddah or Brazil. And even the first lap move on Lewis was the same thing. Redbull and max complaining Lewis went off when max did too lol
Ninjenius
21st October 2024, 12:48
From the stewards:
“Car 4 was overtaking Car 1 on the outside, but was not level with Car 1 at the apex. Therefore under the Driving Standards Guidelines, Car 4 had lost the “right” to the corner.
“A 5 second penalty is imposed instead of the 10 second penalty recommended in the guidelines because having committed to the overtaking move on the outside the driver of Car 4 had little alternative other than to leave the track because of the proximity of Car 1 which had also left the track.
“In view of the above, we determine that this will not count as a track limit “strike” for Car 4.”
The way I interpret that leads me to believe that, had Norris either backed off when forced off the track or given the position back after going ahead, Max would have been handed a 5 second penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage (keeping his position by leaving the track, a la Brazil 2021). I’m basing that off the fact the stewards brought Lando’s penalty from 10 seconds down to 5 due to Max also leaving the track to defend his position, essentially 5 seconds being removed from both sides of the equation. Though whether the severity of these punishments are consistent with others handed out during the same race is another debate entirely.
Regarding the debate on being ahead at the apex, it is very clearly a flawed rule, or at the very least a flawed interpretation of the rule. IMO Driver A should not have the “right” to a corner over another Driver B if Driver A is ahead at the apex as a result of braking too late and proceeding to then leave the track bounds as a result. We could all see that Lando was when entering the braking zone.
For me, if any part of the outside driver’s car is ahead when entering the braking zone, they have at least an equal right to the corner as the driver on the inside, regardless of who is eventually ahead at the apex. This would stop drivers like Verstappen exploiting this weakness in the regs. Of course, the difficulty becomes judging what the braking zones are as they are different for the driver on the inside and outside, and can change in changeable conditions, so I’m not sure how feasible it is to implement or if it was even considered when the rule about the “apex” was put forward. More a topic for debate I suppose!
Ninjenius
21st October 2024, 12:49
*We could all see that Lando was ahead when entering the braking zone.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
22nd October 2024, 2:09
Yep, because the stewards are overtly lying, this means they know they are full of it, and have no argument. This is why they are clowns, this is why they should all be fired and never let back on to a FIA track again. Until they start playing fair, or the FIA puts in the rules, no holds barred on first 3 laps, then they are just plain clowns.
f1fish (@f1fish)
22nd October 2024, 6:30
They appear to be deliberately diminishing the sport. Am I overthinking it or are they just really incompetent?
Doh
23rd October 2024, 8:07
It appears that way because they seem aloof. Yes the are and I’d say they’re more than just incompetent.
Osnola
21st October 2024, 13:19
Lando already was shown the black and white flag.
So counting his leaving the track would automatically caused a penalty.
They gifted him that one and 5 seconds less then was normal in those circumstances.
Lando was lucky!
Ninjenius
21st October 2024, 13:30
Incorrect. “Leaving the track” in itself would not have caused a penalty had Lando given up the place, as he would not have gained a lasting advantage by being off the track. The rules on track limits are in place to stop drivers gaining time by exceeding track limits.
Osnola
22nd October 2024, 7:23
Breaking a track limit does count even if you are doing it to avoid contact.
Norris should have lifted but decided to keep the pedal down. Bad decision.
drmouse (@drmouse)
22nd October 2024, 15:43
That was the one which earned him a black and white flag. They explained in the commentary that it was misleading because, if it happens at certain points, two lap times are deleted, current and following. So he wouldn’t have been penalised for this one, he got a black and white flag for it, same AFAIK didn’t leave the track again.
BasCB (@bascb)
21st October 2024, 15:07
Lando was NOT shown the black and white flag though.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
23rd October 2024, 17:38
Norris was on his 4th strike, but as the stewards’ report makes clear, he was forced off the road by Verstappen. This would have retrospectively cancelled the 4th strike (standard protocol any time a driver is forced off track, but due to the requirement for manual cancellation, flags and penalties are delayed until that check is done), which was why the black-and-white flag was not immediately waved. Since Norris was forced off, he would have gone down to 3 strikes again as soon as that ruling was issued.
However, since this was after the race, Norris was running the risk of going straight to a penalty if he went off the track again between the time he was forced off-track and the moment the stewards made their ruling.
wooky
21st October 2024, 15:33
Max gained advantage by going off track, regardless of what Norris did.
Ninjenius
21st October 2024, 16:03
I agree, far as I’m concerned it should have been a 5 second penalty for both. My point was more the steward’s implication that Max left the track and left Norris no other choice, that had Norris stayed behind or given the position back, Max would have been the only one penalised (and rightly so). Whether they actually would have… who knows with these stewards eh?
Osnola
22nd October 2024, 7:25
Max teceived a track limit warning, so he wad ” punished”.
But as it was only his second one it did not matter.
Norris on the other hand already was warned and they gifted him the penalty.
So still a lucky norris
Doh
23rd October 2024, 8:08
Same on lap 1 Vs Carlos. Carlos was ahead at apex.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 16:20
The rules for leaving space on outside overtakes
It is clear Lando didn’t comply with the first part of the rule. So he wasn’t entitled to space and you can’t argue that Max didn’t leave him space. That is clear.
Than the second part it’s clear that Max didn’t comply to that part. But does it override the first part of the rule. No I don’t think so because Norris wasn’t entitled to space in the first place. Steward s followed the rules so that’s fine.
Still leaves a bit of sour feeling as Max also didn’t make the corner and isn’t penalized but only counts as a track violation.
You can argue about the rules but the more I read the rules the more I think the stewards just followed the rules in all cases yesterday.
Ninjenius
21st October 2024, 16:56
I agree, the issue definitely seems to be more about the vagueness of the rules and how they are implemented.
Since the 10 second penalty for overtaking off track is apparently a “recommended” punishment and not mandatory, I guess stewards were happy to start dishing out only 5 seconds for overtaking off track in yesterday’s race (I forget which drivers fell foul of that rule), so it just seems strange that the stewards mention the recommended 10 second punishment in the report for Norris/Max situation. I don’t seem to remember there being any other mitigating circumstances like the defending driver also going off track in the other incidents where a driver overtook off track, so why was 5 seconds dished out and not 10? Not saying the severity of punishment is right or wrong of course, just that the stewards again seem to be very inconsistent in their reasoning and decision making, within the same race no less.
slowmo (@slowmo)
22nd October 2024, 9:57
Just make it so if a defending car leaves the track they have to give up the place. It’s not hard. If you make a mistake and leave the track defending a position then you shouldn’t get to keep the position.
Johns
21st October 2024, 12:50
First race at this track, i believe Ham force Ver off track in same manner w no penalty.
David West
21st October 2024, 14:41
Not the same at all, Hamilton stayed on the track.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
23rd October 2024, 17:39
That is impossible. The first race was in 2012 and Verstappen was still karting back then.
miciek (@micio)
21st October 2024, 12:58
What happens when two drivers fight and they both spin off track and then they recover? Is this still an overtake?
Another question: if two cars are off track and one overtakes the other is this still an overtake?
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
21st October 2024, 13:06
It appears that Verstappen has mastered the rulebook by crashing into drivers and pushing them off track. As long as you take them off track, you’ve won the race.
miciek (@micio)
21st October 2024, 13:07
I think the issue here is that we are trying to make sense of something that is basically illegal. There should be no racing outside of the track.
1) If both cars are off the track then rules just don’t apply there. Each of them should recover as quickly as possible and safely onto the track and continue.
2) The issue therefore is: why did they leave the track in the first place? It’s because one driver pushed another one off. Hence, this driver should get a penalty no matter the order which they recovered later.
It’s not rocket science.
Ludewig
21st October 2024, 20:34
@micio
According to the rules, Max owned the corner, so he was entitled to push Lando off.
miciek (@micio)
22nd October 2024, 7:32
@Ludewig Was he also entitled to go off in the process?
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 8:00
@micio A driver may leave the track but still got the penaulty of a track limit warning and Norris didn’t get it because Norris had no room.
miciek (@micio)
22nd October 2024, 8:21
@macleod I was responding to the “rules arguments”.
The question is: According to the rules, is it possible to overtake another car which is off track? Is overtaking even a thing when both cars are off track?
slowmo (@slowmo)
22nd October 2024, 10:04
By that metric if someone runs wide at the first corner on a S bend the car behind could then just straight line the second corner if possible and overtake. I think the expectation has always been when 2 cars exit the track they should rejoin in the same order and if a change of position does occur then the penalty of leaving the track and gaining an advantage will come into consideration. The only exception to this is usually spins or accidents but there is usually clearly no advantage gained in those instances and causing a collision penalties come into effect.
So in summary, under the rules it is not possible to overtake car without penalty under the rules and the long set precedent seems to be if a pass is made, even under dubious defending, they will give a penalty to the driver who overtook off track but more often than not they’ll take that 5s penalty on the chin and move on with their race.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
23rd October 2024, 17:40
@micio Yes to both, unless some other obvious advantage was gained in the process. That predates the argument about what happens if only one of the cars goes off.
Paul Sawyer
21st October 2024, 13:01
All of this could be at least partially resolved by having gravel on the outside of the track!
ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
22nd October 2024, 2:04
Of course, you are correct. But you are not right.
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 8:03
Just a bit of gravel (doesn’t need the whole corner) and track limit warnings of that turn is over. Missing that corner is then painfull for any driver so drivers would keep overtaking on the inside to prevent that.
No perfect but it should take care a lot of problems for the stewards.
oweng (@oweng)
21st October 2024, 13:08
Is it the case that the “ahead at the apex” rule is absolute? So the car who is ahead at that point has the right to the corner no matter what the circumstances? I find it staggering that the GPDA have not kicked off about it if so.
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 8:09
@oweng It seems so as they even say what happened after that is not important. That rule should be rewritten.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
23rd October 2024, 17:41
@oweng It did about 6 years ago. The current situation is partly the result of that, which may be why the GPDA has not retried.
Osnola
21st October 2024, 13:15
Its so simple and consistent.
You are not allowed to pass outside the track..period.
Never, ever.
It does not matter where the oponent places his car.
If you are at the apex the oponent should give room and faces a possible penalty.
But that does not mean you are allowed to pass outside the track.
Its a big strategic miss by mclaren to gamble on one of the only rules always penalised.
Get over it and next time try again. The mcl was way faster and would have succeeded if norris kept his cool.
Ninjenius
21st October 2024, 13:45
Agreed. Hindsight is a wonderful thing but I feel like this is yet another missed opportunity on an already-considerable pile of missed opportunities from McLaren and Norris this year. Here’s hoping they bounce back strong and close the gap for an entertaining title showdown come December.
wooky
21st October 2024, 15:35
Norris passed Max already before braking, it was Max divebombing and pushing the leadnig driver off the track.
miciek (@micio)
22nd October 2024, 7:34
Lando has not passed outside the track!
Both him and Max went off and Lando recovered his car quicker.
Doh
23rd October 2024, 8:14
So you agrees that max should have gotten a penalty for repassing Carlos off the track on lap one? Carlos was ahead at the apex.
He only kept the position because he went about 5 car widths wide off the track.
J765
21st October 2024, 13:16
I fail to see why they can’t issue two penalties in the same action:
5 seconds for Lando for leaving the track and gaining an advantage.
5 seconds for Max for forcing a driver out of the track.
Max clearly left no space to Lando. Lando clearly used that to gain an advantage.
Marcus (@marcusw)
21st October 2024, 13:40
THIS!!!!
Aaa
21st October 2024, 13:43
This is the only correct take.
I don’t see how in an exact same scenario and action, another driver’s actions determine whether you get a penalty or not.
If you force someone off(or even drive through the apex and to the edge of a corner you clearly won by all rules and regulations, like Ocon and Russell)-it’s an infraction worthy of a penalty, if you don’t give it back.
But the way they see it-in that same scenario, if the other driver goes around you, off the track, and doesn’t give the place back, then you are in the clear, no penalty, and the other driver receives one.
The only problem here is that, if you don’t want a penalty fest, there is no way to redress. So if both Verstappen and Norris wanted to give the place back, they couldn’t. Which is something that can be figured out beforehand, it the race director and the stewards would care to address and solve this common hypothetical that happens every weekend, instead of applying inconsistent, ad-hoc rulings.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
21st October 2024, 14:00
There’s any number of solutions they could have come up with that would have made more sense than what they did. This is one of them, as is – both broke the rules in some way, but parity was restored by the outcome so lets not get involved and let them race on – which is a take which is often given where both sides are deemed at fault.
notagrumpyfan
21st October 2024, 14:26
That seems a fair way to review and penalise this (sequence of) incident(s).
There could however be an argument then that the Norris penalty should remain 10s (rather than discounted to 5s) as the mitigating factor (Verstappen also left the track) would be penalised separately.
Osnola
22nd October 2024, 7:28
Normally: 10s for passing off track
And another 5s for his 4e or even fifth track limit violation.
So 15 for norris and 5 for max..
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 8:11
Yes but Norris track limit violation of this turn was undone by the stewards so you can drop the extra 5 seconds.
MazdaChris (@mazdachris)
21st October 2024, 13:21
I think what rankles about the decision is that there’s no apparent punishment for Verstappen for forcing Norris off the track. There were, arguably, two infractions here – Norris going ahead whilst off the track, and Verstappen forcing Norris off the track.
To demonstrate that the rules had been applied fairly and consistently, it would have been a lot better to issue two separate penalties, one for each driver with the reasoning for the penalty clearly explained. As it is, the impression you’re left with is that Verstappen basically got away with running Norris off the road. Not helped by there being so many other incidents where Verstappen appears to have gotten away with the exact same thing while others have been penalised (even in the same race). Verstappen pushed Norris off the track twice in the GP and didn’t receive any penalty or reprimand in either case.
Not that this is justification for not penalising Norris. Clearly, at the point both cars left the track, Verstappen was ahead. So there’s no argument that he didn’t get passed off the track, meaning that the result of the race would have been subject to appeal by RBR had Norris not been penalised. McLaren should have recognised that and told him to give the place back, as unfair as that may appear to be. That bit feels like an error of judgement on their part.
Mayrton
21st October 2024, 13:36
Maybe we need another article on this with some further analysis.
Ben
21st October 2024, 13:48
+1 I’ve only read everyone’s views three or four times now, a fifth is essential!
Of course these comments will be removed…
Tristan
22nd October 2024, 8:37
I hadn’t shared my thoughts, only got to the replay last night and didn’t want to spoil myself because I knew it was a big race and boy was it! I didn’t even know what the other articles said. Anyway, just remember there’s a world full of people out there. It’s not all about you.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 14:39
Why not? These stewarding decisions are critical to Formula 1’s validity as a sport. As we know, they can decide to entire championships. And there are huge inconsistencies in these cases and a lack of transparency and accountability in the stewarding, in my view. FIA only acknowledged the Abu Dhabi debacle as ‘human error’ well after the event when the result was sealed. But no review was made of earlier decisions made by the race director and stewards.
The wording to the stewards explanation in this case is ‘weasley’ to the say the least, very deliberately avoiding stating that Verstappen forced Norris wide. I think that compromises their integrity as stewards when they patently judged other drivers to have done the same.
Ben
21st October 2024, 18:08
Because it’s a bunch of people with no ability to change anything stating their opinions. I highly doubt the FIA will read this and suddenly make changes. We get it, some agree and some don’t. Does that matter? No. It’s done, move on! It impacts no one’s life on here. There’s multiple other positive things we could be discussing, but instead let’s go around in circles with this nonsense.
Mayrton
22nd October 2024, 7:05
Biggest +1 ever. Well said.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
21st October 2024, 13:47
This race highlighted so many of the deficiencies in stewarding and the application of the rules, I don’t even know where to start. There’s the ‘lap 1 free for all’ rule, which is completely unnecessary as the majority of incidents aren’t even dependent on it being lap 1. Turn 1 with Verstappen and Norris was essentially a 2-car incident – the fact that there were 18 other drivers behind them/driving past them was irrelevant. Later in the lap with Sainz vs Verstappen was also a 2-car incident, yet Sainz overtakes off the track and isn’t penalised because it happens to be lap 1. Remove the lap 1 caveat and just allow the stewards to use judgement and discretion in any incident where several cars are in close vicinity, as they already do for every other non-lap 1 incident.
Then there’s forcing another driver off track while overtaking. Is this allowed, or isn’t it? It seems to me this happened many times in turn 12 in the sprint and the main race, yet on only a few occasions was it penalised. In the past, my understanding was that if the racing lines takes you to the outside of the track, the driver ahead is allowed to take the racing line and force his opponent wide, yet occasionally this gets penalised anyway, such as Norris vs Perez in Austria last year, and Russell vs Bottas today.
The lap 52 incident and ‘defending’ by forcing the other driver off is just the cherry on top. According to the stewards now, the defending driver can dive-bomb with no intention of making the corner, and provided that he is ‘ahead at the apex’, the attacking driver will not be allowed to overtake (this description is more Interlagos 2021 rather than yesterday, since I think on this occasion Max did attempt to stay on track). Overtaking around the outside is essentially impossible on such a corner under these rules if the defending driver is determined to hold the place. Best he can do is force his opponent into doing this manoeuvre several times until he eventually gets a penalty due to track limit violations.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
21st October 2024, 13:57
I see it’s been pointed out that the Verstappen-Sainz incident was not on lap 1, so my mistake on that. However, that makes even more of a mockery of the policing of turn 12 and the rules regarding forcing another driver off, and those for gaining an advantage by going off track. Sainz did to Verstappen exactly what Russell did to Bottas, except Sainz failed to stay on the track, yet it was Russell that was penalised. So, still a fail on stewarding, but I applied it to the wrong issue in this case.
Grapmg
21st October 2024, 14:14
The difference is that Sainz stayed behind Verstappen after they both went off track while Russell stayed in front of Bottas. Verstappen Sainz is a non issue because Sainz stayed behind after a failed overtake.
Russel shouldn’t have a penalty if you ask me because he stayed on track but if there was contact and he forced Bottas the Stewards have a reason to penalize.
Lap1 I think the stewards should at least note the incident and explain if they use the ” lap1 rule” as Max did exactly the same as Russel in my view
Illusive (@illusive)
21st October 2024, 13:50
Why didnt Lando anticipate Max braking late and doing the switcheroo. Like after all these races he still doesnt gets Max. He took so much time to even get any overtake done that there were few laps left, not to forget the moving under braking at T1 when he was on 2 minds if to let Max pass and decided to move at the last second. He absolutely deserved the penalty. Once again people fail to understand no matter what Max will keep exploiting grey areas because there will always be one. His genius people just fail to understand.
MacLeod (@macleod)
22nd October 2024, 8:13
This is what i said earlier 5-6 times the same attempt is not a good thing.
fanracinganonymous
21st October 2024, 13:58
I think fans need to understand that they’re watching entertaining and not racing. These decisions are made for entertainment, to stir things up, because let’s face it, F1 as a sport is not worth that much.
joe jopling (@jop452)
21st October 2024, 14:24
I am getting the feeling that the Stewards are “helping” the World Champion, again. Hope I am wrong
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 14:31
Good balanced take. Winding back 3 years, Hamilton didn’t pass Verstappen at Interlagos but then Verstappen didn’t get a penalty either (the ‘defensive sweep’ wasn’t investigated or even ‘noted’ as far as I recall). But the race wasn’t in its final laps and Hamilton was confident he would find a way past, which he did.
Norris was right to question the team opinion that he had to return the place (slowing like Hamilton would have been smarter still, indicating to the stewards that he’d been forced off). But it’s really questionable whether the stewards would have penalized Verstappen. Personally I’m 90% sure they wouldn’t have. They’d have adopted the same attitude as Interlagos 2021, ‘let them sort it out on track,’ ‘it’s called racing!’ etc. Which strangely only ever seems to apply when it favours Max Verstappen. Sorry, just how these decisions come across.
As the cool down room showed, Verstappen was full of self-validation for the incident, ignoring that he’d forced his rival off track (twice). So effectively the FIA stewards, yet again, have condoned his style of driving and we’ll get a repeat.
Leclerc is smart enough – in terms of racing mentality and tactics – to know how this works. Hamilton too. Norris? Doesn’t seem so. Too passive still in his racing and in his decision-making – he should have just handed back the place as his instinct told him.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 14:32
*sorry, the team opinion that he didn’t have to return the place
slowmo (@slowmo)
22nd October 2024, 10:11
Maybe Mclaren should brief both their drivers to just turn into Verstappen for the rest of the year whenever they’re racing. Everytime they take Max out they’ll be pulling themselves ahead of RBR in the WCC.
notagrumpyfan
21st October 2024, 14:33
There is one thing overlooked in all these discussions on the penalty:
Norris is clearly very fast in his car, but he is not a very good tracer yet. He tries the same overtake lap after lap, rather than changing it on every lap (like Hamilton, Alonso, Verstappen, etc. do).
He also tries to overtake on the outside when he cannot get level at the apex, rather than mixing up inside dive bombs (a bit like Verstappen’s defence) and outside brake hard and switch to the inside manoeuvres. We saw this weekend other drivers (Sainz, Magnussen, etc) Do this quite effectively.
David BR (@david-br)
21st October 2024, 14:41
Fair criticism in my view. He needs to time his attacks better when he has a speed advantage and is approaching. And go for the inside. Trying to pass Verstappen on the outside is a lost cause (has he forgotten Austria already?) And I didn’t really see him didge and feint either, his moves seem heavily signposted.
David West
21st October 2024, 14:42
You can’t justify it.
davey (@djdaveyp87)
21st October 2024, 15:21
For me this is clear.
They should have both received penalties, these penalties would have cancelled each other out but would have explained to the fans watching who did which unacceptable thing.
Max drove a great defence mostly, but this move he keeps making and getting away with on repeat is unacceptable.
Max should have got a penalty for forcing Lando off the track, Lando gets a penalty for overtaking off the track. They cancel each other out, both drivers get their just deserts.
McLaren should have been clever and dropped Lando back behind knowing that Max had a penalty coming, but then then the stewards don’t seem to being keen on punishing Max at all.
The fact that Lando passed Max off track does not negate the fact that he pushed him out there, that is the injustice in the situation.
Alex
21st October 2024, 15:38
If Norris could make the corner as the writer insists on saying, then why not prepare himself for a proper X and let the dutch go outside the track? If Norris was so committed to only a single line, outside the corner, even within the limits of the track, then he should be in front before reaching the appex and let clear that his trajectory was impeded by Max’s car pushing him to the outside, which was not the case at all because the Englishman was not in front up to the point were both were already outside the track. Nothing in the rule booking says that it is forbidden to cancel the line of your opponent as you get to the appex in front. You have to leave space if your opponent is already there, not before. It is the second time that British media gets a storm in a teacup for Max/Norris disputes. It is time for them to move on from “Max is bad, Norris and Ham are good” mindset. It is getting worn out and boring.
Tristan
22nd October 2024, 8:11
Yawn, blaming the site when it presents ALL news fairly is sad. There is something in the rule book saying it is forbidden to go off the track. So yes. If you are “cancelling the line of your opponent” you should NOT be allowed to go out of the track to do so. And in the process give your opponent a penalty for going off the track.
Edvaldo
21st October 2024, 17:13
And they keep calling Derek Warwick back. That guy has a history already. Bench him for a season and see how it goes.
Davethechicken
21st October 2024, 17:16
This is a dangerous rule and nonsensical.
If you look again at Silverstone 2021 and imagine Lewis didn’t brake at all instead drove straight on at the apex, Max would have been head on into the barrier.
The fact that Lewis in attempting to make the corner would give him a penalty is absurd.
The out working of the rule is to allow the inside driver to force the outside to crash into a barrier wall, whatever is on the outside of the corner.
David
21st October 2024, 19:02
Good point.
If Hamilton kept his foot in he would likely have been ahead at the apex and so no penalty.
Crazy rule.
Craig
21st October 2024, 22:56
And that would have seen them both in the wall and high speed. You have to wonder if we’re in the usual rut of the stewards refusing to review clearly broken rules until someone gets seriously hurt or killed.
cookie
21st October 2024, 20:58
good point. but you miss the main attraction:
it is also stated that the inside driver must be able to trun inside the track limits, vvhich the stevvards completely ignored.
but most importantly these are not rules but guidelines.
Tristan
22nd October 2024, 8:19
There needs to be a directive that says if a car is on the outside of yours, by any length, even a nose, you can not use the full width of the track. The way it is worded currently means one driver can literally run another into a wall legally, just because they are ahead at the apex of the corner.
This is not a new tactic, I haven’t been paying much attention but I’ve seen Magnussen use this wording of the rules, and Ocon both to lots of negative attention.
It’s literally impossible for Norris to stay on track in any way. You can’t slow down and switch back down the inside After the apex of a corner. People say it would be solved with gravel, but even then not really, Verstappen would probably have beached Norris there.
Osnola
22nd October 2024, 13:53
Lewis steered his car in a well known signature move qnd should have received a black flag for it.
Not comparable at all!
Davethechicken
22nd October 2024, 14:50
Remove your emotion from it. I know Max had a lucky escape in that crash but that is exactly my point.
Silverstone 21, copse. Lewis was level on corner entry and going faster. The footage is crystal clear. He braked before Max. If he hadn’t have he would be de facto “ahead at the apex”, no question, inside line shorter distance, going faster.
As the inside car no longer has to even stay on the track on exit, never mind get near the apex it is perfect example of how this rule will work. The outside car is now having an FIA approved accident at the inside cars discretion.
powersteer (@powersteer)
22nd October 2024, 1:52
Overtaking by going off track is not right, 5s penalty is justified.
BUT, as referees, you can’t possibly allow someone to have a loophole to defend your position by forcing someone off the track so much until you are off the track limits yourself. That’s 100% unsporting. VER shd be awarded the same 5s penalty, if not more as he is also putting his fellow sportsmen and marshalls at risk.
AlanD
22nd October 2024, 2:20
Rules may seem absolute in isolation, but in combination there is also the issue of precedence. If you watch NFL you will be familiar with the situation where both sides commit a penalty, and the more severe penalty takes precedence. In this incident there are two rules, one is that you cannot overtake offtrack, and the other is that you must not crowd another driver off track. I felt that because MV not only failed to leave a car’s width for LN, but went so far as to go off track himself, that you have to accept that MV crowded LN off track, and you can easily argue that LN prevented an accident by exceeding track limits, (which is an allowable reason for going off circuit).
So we have two rules broken, but are they equal or is one more serious than the other? Are they offsetting or does one take precedence?
My personal opinion is that forcing another driver off track is far more serious because you are interfering with another driver’s race and potentially causing an accident, whereas overtaking off track is obviously not permissible, but it doesn’t endanger anyone else, no-one has to take evasive action. So my opinion is that when these two rules arise in the same incident, as they did here, forcing the driver off track is move that should be penalised, and overtaking off track becomes incidental.
AlanD
22nd October 2024, 2:37
I really don’t understand the argument that the driver ahead at the apex can pick his own line. I thought there was also a rule that if a car was “alongside”, where alongside means having at least half a car alongside the other, then drivers had to leave at least one car’s width to the edge of the track. Wherever you are on the circuit, if a car is alongside, you can’t just decide to drive up to the wall to force your opponent to brake to avoid an accident.
If the case of MV v LN, since MV’s car has crowded LN off the edge of the de juro track, then while he is there, the car’s width in the run off area must become de facto track, so it is valid for LN to make a pass in that situation.
AlanD
22nd October 2024, 2:50
Here’s another hypothetical. Suppose Norris backed off slightly, Max spins and is sideways on track in front of Norris as they exit the corner. Norris has no choice but to go wide onto the run off area and in doing so overtakes Max by going off the circuit. I think we would all agree that it would be beyond absurd in that scenario to say Norris had broken a rule by overtaking off-circuit, and needs to give the place back. But as soon as you say that the rule obviously has exceptions, then you are also saying it isn’t an absolute rule at all and it must be interpreted in the context of other events happening around it.
Personally I feel that if you first enforce the crowding off rule, you can forget entirely about who is ahead at the apex, and you can also then enforce the rule forbidding overtaking off track. If someone wants to throw it down the inside crazily fast, Max-style, fine, but they still have to make the corner whilst leaving a car’s width around the outside.
Captain_Slow
22nd October 2024, 8:41
If in doubt – use the Mag-test.
Would Magnussen have received a penalty if driving either car?
Yes – he probably would have received the same penalty as Norris, but leaving the track defending, would definitely have yielded at least 5 seconds, multiple penalty points etc. (Miami, Jeddah).
The Mag-test shows both drivers are to blame, but Verstappen the most.
David West
22nd October 2024, 10:12
If you watch the replay, Norris was already ahead of Verstappen before they got to the corner.
So in fact it was Verstappen who was overtaking and deserved the penalty.
Captain_Slow
22nd October 2024, 10:40
I think the main issue with most of this weekend’s steward decisions were that leaving the the track defending was deemed perfectly fine.
At most other races this is a penalized offense when you either push another car of track (avoiding collision) or rejoin unsafely keeping your position.
This was all accepted this weekend and in fact the other driver was often penalized or asked to give back any position gained from the other driver leaving the track.
I don’t know who the stewards were, but this is the core of misunderstandings and will probably change next race if we have new stewards….
David West
22nd October 2024, 11:21
Well they’re certainly inconsistent, which is the problem.
Osnola
22nd October 2024, 13:55
You should watch it again then.
The only pass happened off track.
Jon
22nd October 2024, 13:33
I don’t think Norris as any chance of being world champ unless vestappen as 2 dnf.
But there is big problem with rules now. If driver overtake with near equal speed make him over take on outside and gentle push him wide. If he goes of track 5sec penalty, if he hold line and you run in to him ,his fault for given no room. It’s like footballer who falls over when tackled lightly. It’s humiliation for sport and looks bad.
It amazing to think when i first started watching this sport. Vestappen would have few smashes and learnt not to pull that trick on few drivers.
Terrion (@terrion)
22nd October 2024, 13:38
I’ve always been Verstappen hater ever since he started racing in F1. So please read this with a grain of salt. He was always overly aggresive (nearly crashing Kimi out at Kemmel Straight), not returning position to team mates when agreed-upon and so on. He’s obviously an excelent driver, but his ego was always too high and his attitude towards other drivers and stewards has always been kinda poor. I also always hated Michael, Fernando, Lewis and Seb because of their similiar behaviour during their early years.
I always hoped for some “justice” that the bad guys should not be winning and should be punished instead. That’s why I enjoyed drivers like Damon, Kimi, Jenson or Nico winning their titles.
The thing about Max nowadays is that he’s doing everything correct. If I were in his place, I would have done the same. We all knew he would stick his nose to the turn 1 and later as well. And who wouldn’t in his situation. What he needs is finishing ahead of Lando or at least force Lando to lose some points. Who cares he pushed Lando off track in turn 1. Even if he received a penalty, the positions lost for Lando were much more important than those lost for him. On one side I hate it, because it’s not fair-play in my rulebooks. On the other side I admire it, because this guys knows exactly what he’s doing and he’s doing it well. I can say the same for pushing Lewis out of track and deliberately crashing into him on multiple occasions during 2021. It’s the correct decision to do so. The only thing I hate is that he’s not punished for it. He never was. If he were penalised for the things I don’t think are fair-play, would he still win the title? Well, of course. Would he stop doing these questionable maneuvres? Well, of course not. They are very calculated and the reward is much higher than the risk.
The worst possible outcome of their clash in the end of the US GP was Lando overtaking him and maybe Piastri getting ahead somehow. That’s -5 points. The best possible outcome staying ahead was + 3 points. Taking both cars out with 0 points for both is also a pretty good result for Max. When pushing Lando off track, he knew this. I don’t need to know everything about Prisoners dilemma to know it’s always better to push Lando off track in this situation. And again I would have done the same.
The dude
22nd October 2024, 16:48
So like everyone else on here, I’ve had a couple of days to mull it over now and have come to a couple of conclusions. For me, track limits need’s to be respected and overtaking off the track is simply a no-go. You can’t have decent racing if people can choose to drive off in the boonies and complete passes by doing so. As such, every driver should be completely aware that if they go into a corner behind, they can’t go off track and come out in front (unless the other car spins or fails I suppose) as thats just cheating. Norris and McLaren should have known instantly that the move was off the second he went outside the white lines.
However, it also should be clear to everyone and their dog that you can’t lose a position, dive-bomb, miss the corner.. and take the rival car off track with you. Thats also just not on and makes racing impossible. The stewards have tied themselves in knots always wanting one person or the other to be wrong. Sometimes everyone can be wrong and should be penalised because of it.
I’d add as well that all the penalties for running people off the road whilst staying inside the racetrack is rubbish to me. Historically running a car out of road on the outside of a corner (when they’re behind) was always perfectly legit and should still be so. If Verstappen had kept it on the island then he’d have probably copped a penalty if he’d stayed in front, which would’ve been wrong in my opinion.
Mayrton
23rd October 2024, 7:29
That’s a rather grown up view of things and exactly what should have been written by this site in the first (and only) place. Doesn’t deliver clicks however. Better is to write 9 articles about it and lean into the UK bias to make it a success. Pity, since it wasn’t a topic at all for everyone else in the world (just a minor ‘inchident’ in a fabricated, non existing title fight) and distracts from the stellar race some drove.
Honourable mentions go out to both Ferrari drivers who looked really racy this weekend. Furthermore I think Max again (by the antics described above) was underrated and displayed a staggering consistency resulting in putting the car in a place it shouldn’t be on paper. He again maximised everything while the McLaren had the tire and pace advantage. Lawson impressed and so did Colapinto who really deserves a seat next year.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
23rd October 2024, 18:10
Unfortunately, this philosophy fails because in many situations it still rewards the dive-bomber, provided and only provided the dive-bomber does it as blatantly as possible. This is because the person being pushed off-track doesn’t get the option to do anything except go off-track, meaning they either have to stay behind the deliberate dive-bomber, or try to pass – in which case the dive-bomber has every incentive to deliberately crash the would-be overtaker.
Mayrton
24th October 2024, 9:14
It is actually not that difficult. You stay behind the car, open up the corner and cross them on the exit. No need to go off track as overtaking off track will always lead to a penalty. It is just poor judgement by Lando.
The Dolphins
22nd October 2024, 21:11
This is the part of the sport that needs to be addressed, immediately, as it’s long overdue. As Keith points out in the article forcing a driver off the track when overtaking can/has earned drivers a penalty. As such forcing a driver off the track when defending ought to result in an equivalent penalty.
Captain_Slow
22nd October 2024, 21:22
It already does if your name is Magnussen. He basically got banned for it.
But this weekend we saw not just Verstappen, but Colapinto and others go off track defending without the stewards even looking at it.
The Dolphins
23rd October 2024, 13:23
Kevin was passing Pierre and Pierre stayed on his line, a different scenario.
Captain_Slow
23rd October 2024, 20:54
Sorry it wasn’t clear, my reference was with Jeddah and Miami.
At Miami the stewards decision states the following:
“The Stewards reviewed video evidence and found that Car 20 braked late at turn 11 and went off the track. This resulted in Car 44, with whom Car 20 was fighting for position on track, having to leave the track as well. Car 44 got back to the track quickly but Car 20 continued off track and thereby stayed ahead of Car 44.”
Try and substitute car #20 with #1 and #44 with 4 and see if you get the same result – that is my point.
Regarding the Gasly incident (Monza I guess) it is a different scenario as you write.
However consider the stewards ruling, which was as follows:
“On the approach to Turn 4, Car 20 attempted to overtake Car 10 on the inside. Whilst Car 20 had its front axle past the mirror of Car 10, the Driving Standards Guidelines specify that an overtaking car has to “be driven in a safe and controlled manner throughout the manoeuvre”. The Stewards determined that this was not the case for Car 20 and hence the driver was wholly to blame for the collision and hence the standard penalty and penalty points are allocated.”
Magnussen received the famous last 2 penalty point because he attempted a pass with the car not driven in a safe and controlled manner throughout the manoeuvre.
Magnussen stayed well within the track limits, but locked up during braking. Drivers overshooting the corner all together leaving the track on the outside with all wheels off are apparently driving in a safe and controlled manner… why the stewards don’t even look at the incident.
…that would be exempt car #20, who in this case would be leaving the track gaining a lasting advantage, which is a 10 second penalty as per the Miami ruling…
Maisch (@maisch)
23rd October 2024, 9:00
Im in neither drivers camp, but both should be penalised. The failed dive bomb on the inside to get the place back was just silly, but its not the first time Max does the clumsy racing things. I guess its very frustrating for all the drivers who got penalised for such behavior previously. Lets hope all the focus it got will create some kind of improvement process inside the F1 walls, but thats maybe optimistic..