The FIA stewards revised their decision on one of Max Verstappen’s two penalties in the Mexican Grand Prix in order to issue him penalty points.
Verstappen originally avoided receiving any penalty points for his two incidents with Lando Norris. However the stewards withdrew their first decision, regarding the incident at turn four, and reissued it.The revised document handed Verstappen two penalty points, putting him on a total of six for the current 12-month period. Any driver who reaches 12 receives an automatic race ban, as happened to Kevin Magnussen earlier this year.
Norris and Verstappen clashed twice on the tenth lap of the race as they fought over second place. The incident began as Norris drew along Verstappen on the outside approaching turn four. Verstappen braked deep into the corner, forcing Norris off.
The McLaren driver rejoined in the lead of the race, having passed Verstappen as well as Carlos Sainz Jnr off-track. He immediately let Sainz past, but not Verstappen.
The Red Bull driver then lunged down the inside of Norris at turn seven. He ran wide, taking Norris with him, and the pair rejoined the track behind Charles Leclerc.
The stewards ruled Verstappen was at fault for both incidents and gave him a 10-second time penalty for each. He therefore had to wait 20 seconds when he made his pit stop before his team could change his tyres.
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Regarding the turn four incident, the stewards cleared Norris of any blame, ruling the McLaren driver made his move “in a safe and controlled manner and that Norris would have been able to make the manoeuvre on the track had he not been forced off the track by Verstappen.
“Norris cut the corner but immediately gave the position he gained as a result back to Sainz. The penalty is the standard penalty in such cases.”
Despite ruling Verstappen “forced another driver off the track” the stewards did not hand him any penalty points to begin with, but later revised their decision and gave him two.
The stewards also deemed him at fault for the later incident, for which he received no penalty points. Significantly, the stewards indicated they did not believe Verstappen intentionally forced Norris off the track, stating it was “incidental”.
“Following the incident in turn four, Verstappen attempted to pass Norris on the inside at turn eight. Verstappen was ahead at the apex of turn eight and would have been entitled to racing room. However, he was not able to complete the manoeuvre on the track, left the track and kept the lasting advantage gaining the position, incidently [sic] forcing Norris off the track.
“The penalty is the standard penalty for leaving the track and gaining a lasting advantage.”
This article will be updated
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2024 Mexican Grand Prix
- McLaren have no regrets over pitting Norris shortly before red flag came out
- Leclerc fined, avoids same penalty as Verstappen after apologising for swearing
- Leclerc not in the clear over swearing as Verstappen claims he went unpunished
- Majority of drivers wanted racing rules to change “straight away” – Russell
- Verstappen was “over the limit” with Norris but others would do same – Leclerc
Jere (@jerejj)
27th October 2024, 22:08
He should’ve been immediately black-flagged, if anything.
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
27th October 2024, 22:17
A driver cannot be black flagged for pushing another driver off the track or gor overtaking illegally.
If Verstappen was to be shown a black flag today then Magnussen should have been banned for life for what he did in Miami…
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
27th October 2024, 22:25
It is no different than what Schumacher did to Hill in 1996, only Max did it 4 times over 2 races so technically should be penalized 4 times or more. You do NOT want to hear what happened to Ayrton Senna over Suzuka and the crash with Prost.
Max is like Al Capone running around without anyone policing him…
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
27th October 2024, 22:27
You do know that in the incidents that you mention no one was penalised, right?
Femke
28th October 2024, 7:22
Yeah but they penalised the mclaren driver in that instance
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
28th October 2024, 0:03
Schumacher to hill in 1996? That’s not famous enough to understand which you’re talking about without context, unless you mean adelaide 1994?
Jere (@jerejj)
27th October 2024, 22:33
Definitely a justification for black-flagging since the T8 move was clearly a red mist because Lando deliberately didn’t let him by into T6.
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
27th October 2024, 22:37
The penalty for leaving the track and gaining an advantage is 10 seconds. A black flag cannot be given just because some people think that 10 seconds are not enough.
Jere (@jerejj)
27th October 2024, 22:53
Yes, but stewards should’ve been able to tell that as a deliberate revenge attempt.
MacLeod (@macleod)
28th October 2024, 7:50
@jerejj you should calm done a bit as your talking if Max want to kill Lando which wasn’t the case.
Aslam
29th October 2024, 17:40
Max should have received a “Drive through” penalty (allowed in the rules) for the T8 incident along with 3 penalty points. One of these days, he is going to cause serious injury or even the death of another driver.
The FIA are guilty of a dereliction of duty for their multiple failures to act against him for several years, especially 2021. Could it be that they allowed it because they didn’t want a black driver to overtake Schumacher’s record of 7 WDCs? I wouldn’t be surprised. AD21 was a clear case of the FIA’ allowing RBR & Max to cheat and their whitewash inquiry after the race blamed it on “human error” by Masi (or Masi the bigot as he is known in some quarters). Complete twoddle.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 2:09
Jere, good description, my first reaction on seeing it was definitely that it was a “red mist” move. It felt like it was just about trying to bully Norris, with little regard to whether or not Norris would end up in the fence. It is one thing to force another driver off track because you’ve misjudged the space or whatever, and there is a ten second penalty for that, but forgetting all about the corner just to make a point should be on a whole different level. F1 drivers are supposed to be better than that, and F1 is not supposed to be contact sport. I’d give Max the benefit of the doubt and say we can’t be sure it was malicious, maybe he just misjudged it badly, but he is the WDC, not Pastor Maldonado, and if he had misjudged it, surely he is big enough to have made some apologetic noises about it in the interviews afterwards.
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
28th October 2024, 4:48
As I wrote above, since Magnussen was not given a black flag in Miami, Verstappen did not deserve one either.
The black flag should and is reserved for exceptional offences.
The only case in recent years that I remember in which a black flag should have been given was when Vettel deliberatelly collided with Hamilton behind the safety car.
SteveP
28th October 2024, 7:24
I think it is very rarely the case that MV has misjudged the space or speed on any of these manoeuvres in recent times. He’s good enough to do the same thing, very close to, and frequently over, the limits, as part of a bullying tactic. Like father, like son, but the son is better in the execution.
People are shouting about blag flag, black flag, but the proper procedure is the black and white flag warning of unsporting behaviour – which should have been waved several years ago with follow up post-race reprimands etc to build the pressure to change the behaviour.
Never the less, it’s good to see that the stewards are beginning to take action – better late than never.
MacLeod (@macleod)
28th October 2024, 7:52
@exeviolthor In the modern times I think your right with Vettel and Lewis in Baku (not driving into the back but the passing and steering into Lewis under safetycar)
AlanD
29th October 2024, 1:06
Steve P: “but the proper procedure is the black and white flag warning of unsporting behaviour”
I’ve been thinking about that and not sure that is correct. The black flag is rarely used, and I can’t find a definitive list anywhere, so it is difficult to know for sure. I thought the B+W was a one-time warning, but not an essential pre-requisite. For example, when drivers have been excluded for pit lane violations, it is an immediate black flag, not a warning not to do it again. It is like the red and yellow cards in football. Commit a bad foul and it is a yellow card one and only one warning, and do it a second time and it is a red card sending off. However, if a player decides to head butt an opponent, the referee will issue an immediate red card.
So I think if the stewards had chosen to dsq Max for dangerous driving, they are able to do so immediately. I don’t think they are obliged to give him one free hit first.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 6:57
@exeviolthor A driver can be black-flagged for such behaviour… if it is after ignoring a black-and-white flag, or has otherwise ignored other penalties at the same race for similar misconduct. The bar, as you can imagine, was very high and Verstappen didn’t even nudge the bar for a black flag.
lynn-m
27th October 2024, 23:59
@jerejj Man the modern show over sport fans are pathetic.
There was zero justification for a black flag.
I’d argue Leclerc intentionally swerving into Piastia during practice at the Spanish GP was far more worth worthy of a black flag as that was an intentional swerving into another car on a straight out of anger for been held up at the prior corner. I think Stroll did something similar that weekend also.
What we saw today was just very aggressive racing between 2 drivers unwilling to give each other an inch.
And with these silly guidelines about whos ahead at the apex determining who has the right to what space your always going to see drivers trying to take advantage of that. it’s why the over regulation needs to be done away with. There are always unintended consequences for such nonsense over regulations.
Jere (@jerejj)
28th October 2024, 6:15
@exeviolthor I think you mean Monaco, but good point.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:06
@jerejj Definitely Spain, also the Leclerc collision that session was with Norris, and as reported at the time in the quotes for the linked item*, Leclerc was not found to have intentionally swerved – the “irrespective of any possible intent” matters – the penalty was strictly for erratic driving. (Having said that, Stroll flat admitted his crash with Hamilton in the same session was on purpose and got the same consequence. While I cannot imagine that was a fun day to be a steward, there was definitely something strange going on with the stewarding, even by 2024 standards).
Nikos (@exeviolthor)
28th October 2024, 7:09
No I meant Miami when he held up all the field with illegal moves so that Hukenberg could score points.
He got three separate 10 second pentalties in that race, but because he did not give up the positions he gained he was able to drive slowly and block everyone to make sure that Hulkenberg gets a free pit stop.
Win7Golf (@win7golf)
28th October 2024, 6:08
I’m with you…
Autosport says F1 is becoming a farce… should say why – Max… it’s always him – F1 needs another rules book just for that little bully…
And now that his car it’s not always ahead, other drivers need to not be afraid to overtaking him, in the way he does to others.
Every now and then, there’s a stupid arrogant guy that reaches the F1 top…
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:07
@win7golf No, it needs him to have the same rulebook as everyone else. Perhaps the stewards in Mexico decided today was as good a day as any, and Red Bull’s apparent confusion is because they’d expected the US Grand Prix to have set a definitive precedent.
SteveP
28th October 2024, 7:31
I don’t think @win7golf was calling for a separate rule book, just a bit of hyperbole suggesting that, like M. Schumacher, he’s caused enough dubious incidents that there should be a whole new set of rules to stop that behaviour across the board.
I don’t think it needs new rules, though. Just small clarifications of right and wrong, and mostly stewards actually applying rules that already exist.
Royston James
28th October 2024, 10:43
I agree. The FIA won’t do anything until he kills someone
bosyber (@bosyber)
27th October 2024, 22:09
Wait, so even when they finally put a gauntlet down to tell Verstappen to stop doing it they are effectively keeping it soft as they feel they can? Guess I’m not that surprised anymore, but it is a bit weird.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
27th October 2024, 22:09
I like Max. I think he’s one of the greatest. I was fine with COTA being the bad side of him, it was borderline. But this race, Saudi 2021, Brazil 2021 really stinks for me… This was just unfair on everyone, not just on Lando. Is that really the way to race? Isn’t it better to win the championship eeking everything you got instead of playing these games? he doesn’t need it, really…
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
27th October 2024, 22:18
@fer-no65 you cannot be one of the greatest, if you divebomb. Look at Alonso’s defense at Hungary 2021. That’s one of the greatest.
Look at Hamilton setting up overtakes over 10 laps because there’s no other way to overtake in a DRS train.
And look at Max trying to kill everyone on track.
MarkWebber (@markwebber)
27th October 2024, 22:58
Senna would disagree
Doh
28th October 2024, 0:10
Senna was a much cleaner racer than max. It’s hard to even respect him let alone try to clude him as one of the greats
An Sionnach
28th October 2024, 2:46
Senna made everyone racing today look like angels.
Davethechicken
28th October 2024, 8:13
Different times in Senna’s day too with no DRS.
I was a big Prost fan but on reflection ’89 was on Prost. At the time I was glad to see Senna lose, but one can look back more objectively now.
The next year was blatant by Senna at the same track. That should not have been allowed to stand.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 0:13
Senna did not do stuff like that in every race because he didn’t want to lose. No one likes to lose but 19 drivers will lose every weekend – it’s a fact. Alonso hasn’t won a race since 2013 and there’s no one on the grid that believes he doesn’t deserve to win a race. You don’t see Alonso moving down the rest of the grid to win a race?
Royston James
28th October 2024, 10:45
Agreed. As a fan like you I do hope the latter never happends
David BR (@david-br)
27th October 2024, 23:06
@fer-no65 I agree, last week was borderline and just over, but Norris/McLaren made a poor decision in not returning the place. This time it was back to the excesses of 2021. He’s never learnt to rein in his fury in these situations thanks to Masi and the 2021 stewards. It would probably take losing a championship to make him adjust and I don’t see that happening this year. He’ll probably cool down enough to not make the same mistake and the points gap is 47 still with four races and the sprints (which possibly favour him).
It’s after he showed he can beat Norris without the extreme racing. Just qualifying higher in Mexico was enough. I guess he felt the car was underpowered for the race, he’d end up being passed by Norris and maybe the Mercedes and when Norris went past, he flipped into ‘whatever it takes’ mode.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
28th October 2024, 0:07
Actually I believe, had it not been for the penalty and hence had verstappen kept track position, it’d have been an easy 4th place for him, the mercedes weren’t fast enough to overtake him, the red bull was at least as fast as them, if not faster, not far from the mclaren imo.
Doh
28th October 2024, 0:11
I just don’t see how Austin was borderline. It was the same as Brazil and even momenta of Saudi 21
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
27th October 2024, 23:21
To follow up, the stewards also gave Franco Colapinto 2 points (and 10 seconds penalty) for that teeny tiny incident with Lawson.
Talk about consistency!
Doh
28th October 2024, 0:09
Can’t be considered one of the greats. People say senna put people in a position to crash but he was a cleaner racer than max. Max doesn’t seem like a racer but a derby driver. Which is also why I don’t believe he was the better driver over the full 21 season. To add, people overlooked his mistakes in the last 4 races if the season.
Surprising you think cota was borderline. You probably thought Monza, Saudi and Brazil 21 were fine.
Davethechicken
28th October 2024, 8:19
For me, Max has not proved himself a great. His lack of in team competition is a big factor. Marko himself said Sainz and Max were very evenly matched at TR and I think that is fair. Sainz is nowhere near as dirty in wheel to wheel racing though.
It is very easy to see why CH won’t put another equal driver in the sister car, Max would be driving at them every week! It would destroy the team.
It seems Max has no other way to attack or defend in near equal machinery. How many incidents has he had like this over his career, it would take a while to count them all.
Doh
29th October 2024, 11:50
This too. The calibre of the opponents of Fernando and Lewis is bounds ahead.
He’s definitely a good driver but great not so sure, I respect his will to win and aggression but then again have lost respect over and over. Especially when it started to matter when he started to challenge for titles. He’s been enabled too by the FIA and his team. Even back in Baku 2018.
I see that strong will to win from Fernando and Lewis too but on track it looks very different with them. Lewis’s ability to bounce back has been incredible to watch and Fernando’s tenacity is absolutely evident. The amount of phenomenal drives they have displayed you’d need a top 30 or more.
I’m sure he would be admired much more if he didn’t just run people off the track every time it comes to a clutch moment. It’s a cop out. But who cares what people think right.
Applebook
28th October 2024, 1:26
It was also really unnecessary. His brutal defenses against Lewis in 2021 made sense. Today and for most of this season, it doesn’t. He could have cruised to P4 and still sail off with the title.
BasCB (@bascb)
27th October 2024, 22:11
What kind of BS is that? Verstappen knew he was out of order last week, they had hours of discussion about it in the drivers meeting, even announced a tweak of the rules of engagement to make it explicit that what he did in Austin is not allowed and he doubled down on it here.
I really dislike forcing the stewards into fixed penalties for infringements, since it takes away from the reality that every incident has to be judged individually, but what are points for when they can just ignore them with such a blatant move from a driver. Were they afraid that Max would double down next time and the next set of stewards might have to fudge the guidelines to avoid giving him a race ban towards the end of the season?
Patrick (@paeschli)
27th October 2024, 22:20
It was allowed, that’s why he wasn’t penalised in Austin. This time Johnny Herbert was the steward so the rules were different.
Davethechicken
27th October 2024, 22:35
You must really really really.love Max if you believe what you are writing.
Even CH didn’t defend him, just said the penalty was harsh. Also said the rules.on divebombing need clarified. With Max in T8 being a massive divebomb.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:09
@paeschli No. He wasn’t penalised because the stewards admitted making errors on the paperwork and then stated that this could not be used as evidence that something could be appealed (which itself not broke the regulations as written, but also risked the FIA’s basis to adjudge Grands Prix at all).
drmouse (@drmouse)
28th October 2024, 7:49
They are not forced into fixed penalties. They have standard penalties for them, but are always allowed to issue harsher or more lenient penalties if they feel it is justified.
I do believe they should use this more often. There are times when, for instance, drivers have refused to have a place back because they’ll benefit more than 5/10s by braking the rules. In that case, the stewards should be giving a greater penalty to discourage paying the system in that manner.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
27th October 2024, 22:13
Not enough, he should have been black-flagged with a race ban.
4 crashworthy incidents in 2 races – 2 penalties for Max, 1 for Norris for being a good victim.
It still pays off for Max to crash and kill Norris – maybe he loses 10 seconds…
Esteban
28th October 2024, 0:27
Black flagged! Modern F1 child fans are cute.
Mayrton
28th October 2024, 7:11
Netflix audience
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:09
@freelittlebirds He’s halfway to a ban now, if that helps.
BLS (@brightlampshade)
27th October 2024, 22:14
1 step forward, 2 steps back?
Feels very odd but as ever, expected.
slowmo (@slowmo)
27th October 2024, 22:16
So once again the FIA prove their gutless. The whole point of penalty points is to discourage poor driving, fair enough for no points on the pushing Norris off first incident but the second should have been 2 points and really an immediate drive through penalty. He drove off track, pushed off a competitor and almost hit them bar them taking avoiding action and then overtook off track effectively. A 10s penalty was a joke.
Applebook
28th October 2024, 1:29
Yet he is crying about Silverstone 2021 when the only reason Max doesn’t crash out of half a dozen races each year is because his opponents lift and run off the track to avoid him. Every driver thinks that he’s dirty (well except maybe not his BFF Alonso). That should tell YOU (Red Bull and Max) something!
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
27th October 2024, 22:16
The turn four decision document has now been recalled so there may be changes coming.
BasCB (@bascb)
27th October 2024, 22:17
Thanks for the heads up Keith, I hope they do give him a solid bout of points on his licence for this in the end.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
27th October 2024, 22:21
@bascb why give him points now? What about last week? These races are really just one race as far as everyone is concerned. They are a just week apart – it’s not like this happened at Nascar a year ago and now we’re in F1. Everyone here has watched 1,000 races and knows what’s legal and what’s not legal.
We’ve also seen the likes of Schumacher and Senna receive the worst penalties in the history of the sport.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
28th October 2024, 0:09
Everyone having watched 1000 races is an exaggeration! There’s only been 25 seasons since I started watching, and given there were 16 races back then, maybe the average is more like 19-20, so more like 500 races if one watches since 1999 to now, and I for example skipped the vettel era, I think it’s very rare to watch 1000 races for anyone.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 0:15
@esploratore1 not just Formula1 – I watch 50 MotoGP races a year between Moto2, MotoGP sprints, and the races.
sam
28th October 2024, 1:53
25 seasons? That’s not a lot. Show some respect.
Patrick (@paeschli)
27th October 2024, 22:50
2 penalty points for turn 4.
slowmo (@slowmo)
27th October 2024, 22:23
Feels like the last few races and the ones earlier in the year have put to bed who was at fault for most of the accidents and contact in 2021. Cant help but think Hamilton is sat back enjoying Verstappen’s antics now and how suddenly his driving is a problem when others are on the receiving end unlike 2021 when he was thrown under the bus.
Patrick (@paeschli)
27th October 2024, 22:29
Because Hamilton never forced Rosberg off the track while trying to defend his position?
SteveP
27th October 2024, 23:35
Swap that round, and you have the reason for their joint race ending crash in Spain 2016.
Rosberg learned many things from his previous teammate.
David BR (@david-br)
27th October 2024, 23:50
@paeschli At COTA first corner, where, as I remember, Hamilton claimed he’d understeered and there was a big inquest on whether he had or it was deliberate (yes, probably the latter). But contrast that with Verstappen simply pushing Norris as far wide as possible and everyone accepting it as ‘first lap’ and ‘that’s how to win a championship.’ There’s no denying Verstappen has changed what’s acceptable. The issue is that he hasn’t shown his full 2021 toolbox until today (maybe hinted last week) – and Formula 1 has a decision to make about what actually is and isn’t permissible racing.
David BR (@david-br)
27th October 2024, 23:51
(contrast that with COTA this year, I mean)
slowmo (@slowmo)
27th October 2024, 23:57
There’s a world of difference between running your rival into a disappearing wedge to basically deliberately forcing them to leave the track or crash with aggressive driving. Plus for 30 years prior it had been acceptable to run your rival wide on the exit which is not the case now. Hamilton always leaves some space, Verstappen never leaves any, ever. If you don’t see the difference then that speaks volumes about you.
Applebook
28th October 2024, 1:31
Kimi and Seb already knew long before Lewis what a menace Mad Max could be. Such a shame. An insanely talented driver doing things that he doesn’t need to do!
Peter Thomas (@petert)
27th October 2024, 22:31
I was watching with friends and during his pit stop to serve the penalties the question was raised… did the cooling fan pointing at the intake count as work being done on the car during the penalty?
GT Racer (@gt-racer)
28th October 2024, 0:05
@petert No.
The rule is that nobody can touch the car to work on it while the penalty is been served. For longer penalties using fans to cool the car is allowed for reliability & safety reasons (Safety in terms of cooling brakes).
Ludewig
28th October 2024, 0:05
Of course not. This comment section is getting dumber and dumber.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:10
@petert No, because it didn’t touch the car.
Nerrticus (@nerrticus)
27th October 2024, 22:33
No penalty points for all that? Alonso received 3 earlier this year for much less.
Magnussen probably would have been pulled over and arrested on the spot for the same actions…
Nerrticus (@nerrticus)
27th October 2024, 23:47
OK, it’s been revised to 2 points but that still seems low. Quite often drivers get two points per infraction, so 4 points seem fair and deserved here.
Applebook
28th October 2024, 1:32
Retroactively punish him and award points for Austin too. No “clarification” was needed. His tactics in Austin were unacceptable under any rules.
OOliver
27th October 2024, 22:36
We saw all of these in 2021 but we were so bored with Hamilton winning everthing prior that we were ready to overlook verstappen’s driving. We were reinforcing this madness in his driving now he can’t believe he is doing wrong.
Verstappen can afford to crash with Norris and he is driving as such.
Keith Collantine (@keithcollantine)
27th October 2024, 23:03
The stewards have revised their decision on turn four and given Verstappen two penalty points. The article has been updated accordingly.
MichaelN
27th October 2024, 23:48
I’m all for this. Crowding someone off is not allowed. And never has been.
But why wasn’t Pérez penalized for doing the same move on Stroll? He pushed him straight off.
David BR (@david-br)
27th October 2024, 23:53
Possibly there’s only so much Red Bull in their in-box that the stewards can take at the same time. I felt it went unpenalized too. Also, though, it’s possibly a case of penalizing Pérez in Mexico not being a crowd pleaser (see Ferrari at Monza/Imola and similar ‘byes’).
Roger Ayles (@roger-ayles)
28th October 2024, 0:10
But it has.
If a driver tried to overtake around the outside it used to be accepted that he was putting himself in risk of been run out of road of the exit because the car on the inside was always going to drift out wide at the exit.
Roger Ayles (@roger-ayles)
28th October 2024, 0:15
I mean listen to Martin’s commentary during this incident. One which saw no complaints or penalties given.
https://youtu.be/V61V24dUEyk?si=bgh5stONTI-yOq7a&t=738
Or.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOuw96-JHGo
Or this when JPM does push Kimi beyond the white line going into the stadium.
https://youtu.be/I0QJnOJ4LXI
MichaelN
28th October 2024, 8:32
The FIA Code was never changed. It is of course true that F1 has ignored the rules, but the rules were always there. It’s very classic of how Whiting did business; keep the rules but only sporadically enforce them. It gave him all the power.
But racing is so much better if drivers give each other room. GT racing is full of great racing that goes side by side for multiple corners. F1 had some of that, and it can have it again. Due to its open wheels it will never be quite as easy to do in F1, but still. This current reliance on diving and DRS isn’t ask it could be.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:11
Crowding someone off was apparently allowed last week, that’s part of the reason this race happened as it did.
Patrick (@anunaki)
27th October 2024, 23:57
The 10 seconds penalty is a joke and also pretty random. The 2 time 10 seconds penalty is just ridiculous. Unless the rule book was changed last week and I missed it.
Unprecedented and laughable.
Drivers get a 10 second penalty for causing a collision like the one at Silverstone in 21.
slowmo (@slowmo)
28th October 2024, 0:00
Ridiculous indeed, the second maneuver should have been a drive through. Robbed us of a good fight between Norris and the Ferrari’s.
Roger Ayles (@roger-ayles)
28th October 2024, 0:25
@slowmo It been a drive-thru would have been inconsistent as the sort of thing we saw from Max today hasn’t resulted in a drive-thru since the time penalties were introduced.
I also don’t think the stewards would have been able to give a drive-thru even if they wanted to as i am pretty sure they have fairly strict guidelines on what penalties they have available to them for certain types of incidents now.
I do however believe that they should go back to the stewards and/or race director telling drivers to hand places back rather than it been left upto the discretion of the team & driver.
slowmo (@slowmo)
28th October 2024, 10:36
The issue is they did not apply the correct offences to the second incident. It should have stacked several penalties such as forcing a driver off the track, leaving the track and gaining an advantage, overtaking off track, causing a collision. You shouldn’t just apply one of those to the incident they should all apply and hence the severity of the penalty can be increased. The stewards have room to make penalties more lenient for extenuating circumstances so I’m sure it can work the other way. The key factor here is there should have been some consideration given to the motivation behind the driving too, this was clearly a vindictive move made in anger.
Obviously they no longer sort this stuff out between teams without penalties because Red Bull abused that position historically so now they have the clear guidance that if you don’t give a place back then the FIA will be happy to apply a penalty to you when they review the incident. It’s up to the teams to gamble on whether what they did was acceptable or not. I’m happy they stopped the bargaining by teams on the radio with the FIA. If you want to take your chance with a stewards review then knock yourselves out, otherwise give places back and race fairly. If anything the penalty for those choosing to race unfairly and accept the consequences should be significantly higher imo.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:12
@anunaki Not only is that penalty in the book (and has been for decades), there are also more serious penalties the stewards could have chosen (and might have done had there been time to issue penalty #1 before incident #2 happened).
SteveP
28th October 2024, 7:56
Since the collision happened as a result of a misjudgement of another MV signature move – the frightening close chop in across the front during an overtake – but the aggressor ended up skidding off*, I think people decided to look at the other end of the collision.
I do give RBR PR team full marks for the PR spin of making it the other guy’s fault.
How to blame Norris for this week’s episode is a bit tricky though.
*self-inflicted wound
F180 (@f180)
28th October 2024, 5:06
Switch Max with Norris and the same driving would be praised
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
28th October 2024, 7:13
@f180 By Sky, possibly. (Oddly, Channel 4 was praising Verstappen’s driving until he did the second forcing-off of Norris, a bit like they praised Verstappen’s “precise” lap before it got deleted for going over track limits yesterday).
Tommy C (@tommy-c)
28th October 2024, 7:20
Max seemed to forget he wasn’t sim racing here. That second move was the sort of stunt I pulled when I was 14 with damage turned off. Flashes of the worst of Senna and Schumacher there… I feel sorry for the other drivers who have to deal with this petulant child on the track.
RomTrain (@romtrain)
28th October 2024, 20:14
i thought exactly the same. single player racing ofc.
Mayrton
28th October 2024, 7:20
On a serious note. .the second (turn 7) incident is pretty clear to me. 10sec and penalty points. But the turn 4 incident? Would like to see the interpretation on that. I guess Lando was ahead at the apex? Otherwise it wouldn’t even be a penalty or at minimum it would be the same (but cleaner, since Max didn’t go off) as in Austin, which didn’t get penalised which would make all very random from the stewards (and biased).
Davethechicken
28th October 2024, 9:01
From Max’s onboard Lando was ahead at corner entry and apex. He was entitled to racing room and was forced off the track. Max went over the white line with his right hand tyres.
Again it was potentially race ending for Lando, could have spun in the grass and been out of the race. Or if he held his line, taken damage.
Pretty slam dunk penalty to me.
RBAlonso (@rbalonso)
28th October 2024, 7:46
Max will always go to the edge of the regulations but on Sunday he was well over them. His attitude has always been ‘if I’m ahead in the points, I’m happy to have a race ending crash’ and truthfully, it’s difficult to both race and litigate against that.
The false start for Perez was 5s. In 1993 it was a 10s stop go. Overtaking off the track at the chicane in France 2008 cost Hamilton a drive through. Max knows that 5-10 second penalties are worth the gamble of contact with Norris or causing tyre wear by being ahead.
At the start of the season the rules were meant to be tougher, and they have been. But I’d have expected 10s for the turn 8 issue last year. Turn 4 should be 10s if we assume 5s penalties are no longer used – which makes the 5s Norris received last week out of line.
I don’t think we can use ‘intent’ as part of the decision making process. I felt Alonso only received a penalty in the China sprint because he got one in Melbourne. Incidents should be reviewed in isolation. My worry with regulating intent is how long we can consider the ‘red mist’ to be active? Within 3 corners, 2 laps, anytime when racing a title rival? It would become very messy very quickly.
Alonso received a 20s penalty in Melbourne for ‘potentially dangerous’ driving. I was against that penalty at the time, but it shows the stewards can give 20s when necessary. 10s for turn 4 is fine for me, 20s for turn 8. I’d maybe tweak the rule to make sure it’s served within 3 laps to make the penalty more severe.
Ultimately, Max was over the line. So was Prost in 89, Senna in 90, Schumacher in 94 and 97. These things happen to the greats when under pressure. But the stewards need to accept that Max will do this and apply harsher penalties. 20s for turn 8 on top of 10s for turn 4 served within 3 laps is enough for me. If Max got that 3 races in a row he’d change his attitude. He’s not stupid.
black (@black)
28th October 2024, 7:53
I do miss the days before the 5/10sec rule was introduced and drive through was the standard.
Sure for “minor” incidents (like track limits) the 5/10sec penalties are fine, but for battles between 2 cars, the drivers tend to abuse them. Verstappen (and other drivers in the past) getting 5/10sec penalties and even after they get them, they still stay ahead of the rival car that they should have let by, and they still try to ruin their race even though they’d be out of that battle once the penalty is applied (Magnussen in Miami, Verstappen in Mexico, etc). Or incidents where a driver cuts the corner to overtake a rival, get a 5sec penalty and they just drive into the distance making the penalty irrelevant.
At least the drive through, it was enforcable within 3-5 laps (so battles like Norris vs Ferrari would not be ruined for example because Verstappen chose to drive for 20+ laps hindering Norris) and there was a clear deterrence to not repeat the same offence (hell I remember Vettel in Hungary 2010 getting a drive through for falling more than 10 car lengths behind the safety car… as if that was a gross infringement to warrant a drive through = 20sec).
Bring back the drive through!
slowmo (@slowmo)
28th October 2024, 10:41
Or tweak the rule so they either let the car they passed back in front or conceed an immediate drive through instead of the 5/10s penalty. They need to stop cars just passing off track then racing ahead in faster machinery to make back the 5s.
joe jopling (@jop452)
28th October 2024, 8:04
Whatever penalties were given, Max was back in the points at the end, and without all of this Lando would have probably won . The only winner being Max as he limited the amount of points he could have lost…I would have taken him out of the results..now that would have hurt
Bojangles
28th October 2024, 8:15
I was surprised to hear that Max got 2 penalty points for the action at turn 4. Would have expected this for the action at turn 7, which was over the limit. His driving at turn 4 seemed OK to me. A standard situation of Lando trying to overtake on the outside, and running out of track at the end of the corner because Max keeps his car on the racing line, which is perfectly normal. Lando should have backed off there.
Lando did not complain about this action, he only complained about turn 7…
David
28th October 2024, 9:20
You do get the feeling that the stewards are at a loss to.undestand what is going on during these incidents. Even though they have access to video footage immediately. And then the inconsistent penalties and subsequent revisions. Something needs to change in the process.
For what it’s worth in this case I don’t think the first incident was a penalty but the second incident was dangerous. Verstappen let the red mist take over.
slowmo (@slowmo)
28th October 2024, 10:53
I think it’s pretty clear the stewards went out of their way last week to make a quick decision that was clearly in the eyes of the majority (including F1 drivers), the wrong call. They doubled down on the terminology that the only thing that mattered was the position of the cars at the apex and that determined if a car was entitled to space on the exit or not.
The problem this then created was a situation that Norris exploited this race. There was no way under traditional understood racing rules that Norris could have made a move round the outside of turn 4 as there wouldn’t be space at the exit. Unfortunately though the current guidelines have been mangled due to the certain driving by other drivers over the last 5 years that drivers who put their cars into the disappearing wedge are now entitled to space under very specific criteria. The specific criteria now is that if the car on the outside is ahead at the apex of the corner and the car on the inside doesn’t leave a full cars width at exit then he will be seen as having pushed his opponent off.
This is frankly a ridiculous situation but one that the new guidelines created. Many fans complained about the driving guidelines were ridiculous this year and trying to solve a problem that wouldn’t exist if the FIA had just put their foot down and stopped allowing some drivers to get away with aggressive and bad driving standards.
I think the guidelines just need some clarification in particular around sporting behaviour and tactical fouls such as going off track to defend your position and passing off track when you’re in a faster car.
Dave Parkes
28th October 2024, 13:05
Did anyone else notice the Redbull mechanic touching the front tyre of Max’ car while it was stationary during the 20 seconds?