Max Verstappen was the focus of controversy for the second race in a row in Mexico when he was penalised twice for a pair of incidents which happened on the same lap.
Predictably, his team claimed his pair of 10-second penalties was too harsh a reaction to his clashes with Lando Norris, while McLaren felt they should have gone further. But how did you see it?Incident 1: Turn four
Norris drew along the outside of Verstappen approaching the sharp left-hander. As they turned in, Norris appeared to be on a trajectory to drive around the outside of Verstappen, but the pair drew together and Norris was forced off.
He rejoined in front of Verstappen as well as race leader Carlos Sainz Jnr. Norris immediately let Sainz past.
Incident 2: Turn seven
Almost immediately after the previous incident, Verstappen lunged down the inside of Norris at turn seven. Norris took avoiding action to prevent the pair making contact, and both drove onto the run-off area.
What they said
In the cars
“I was ahead the whole way through the corner,” said Norris after the turn four incident.
“This guy is dangerous,” he added after their second incident. “I just had to avoid a crash. It’s the same as last time. I’m going to end up in a wall in a minute.” The pair also came close to colliding in Austin a week earlier.
“It’s two different incidents,” Norris added. “He overtook me off the track and pushed me off.”
Verstappen either did not comment on the incidents on his radio at the time or his responses were censored.
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After the crash
“At the end of the day it’s also not about agreeing or disagreeing about the penalty,” Verstappen told Sky. “The only thing is, 20 seconds, it’s quite a lot.”
However Norris said only his actions prevented a crash between the pair: “If I didn’t do what I did today and avoid him, I’d probably be out of the race.”
The official verdict
The stewards held Verstappen responsible for both collisions and issued separate 10-second penalties for each.
In the turn four incident, they found Norris’ driving was within the rules and Verstappen forced him off. They saw the turn seven incident as a case of Verstappen attempting to pass Norris, failing to do so and running wide. Verstappen “left the track and kept the lasting advantage gaining the position, incidently [sic] forcing Norris off the track.”
The stewards initially issued no penalty points for either incident. However an hour after the turn four decision was issued it was replaced by an updated version handing Verstappen two penalty points on his licence.
Your verdict
Did the stewards make the correct decisions in both cases? Cast your votes below and have your say in the comments.
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Incident 1: Turn four
Verstappen was given a 10-second time penalty and two penalty points on his licence.
Verstappen's penalty for the incident at turn four was:
- No opinion (0%)
- Far too lenient (9%)
- Slightly too lenient (11%)
- Correct (58%)
- Slightly too harsh (14%)
- Far too harsh (8%)
Total Voters: 198
Incident 2: Turn seven
Verstappen was given a 10-second time penalty and no penalty points on his licence.
Verstappen's penalty for the incident at turn seven was:
- No opinion (0%)
- Far too lenient (23%)
- Slightly too lenient (32%)
- Correct (38%)
- Slightly too harsh (5%)
- Far too harsh (2%)
Total Voters: 182
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SpaFrancorchamps (@spafrancorchamps)
28th October 2024, 7:34
Turn 4 I think the penalty of 10 seconds + 2 penalty points is correct. You could argue it is hard racing that has gone over the line there.
Turn 7 you can come to no other conclusion than Max tried to crash Norris out of the race. 10 seconds and no penalty points is a ridiculous decision. It should had been a black flag and he should had been given penalty points for that too.
No hating on Max. I think he’s the best driver out there and he’s willing to do anything to win, like Schumacher and Senna. But it is up to the FIA to police limits and boundaries so that the drivers can race in a safe manner.
Alex van Zanten
28th October 2024, 8:48
Turn 4, Max was wrong, but to give penalty points for a move without contact or danger is imho crazy. That is the penalty for causing a collision. This was not a collision.
Not once in 2024 was the full 10 seconds penalty applied until Verstappen forced Norris off in Mexico. Every other instance it was just 5 seconds, Let alone 2 penalty points, that was never given before.
Turn 7 you can only come to the conclusion that Max tried to crash Norris out if you have heavy pro-British goggles on, If he wanted to crash Norris out Max would have made sure to make contact.
10 seconds is correct, maybe penalty points for this move was justified.
At the moment FIA is measuring with 2 standards. Everyone except Max got a 5 second penalty for forcing a driver of track. Everyone except Lando got a 10 second penalty for overtaking outside track limits.
SpaFrancorchamps (@spafrancorchamps)
28th October 2024, 9:34
I am not British mate. Perhaps you are the one viewing this too much having Dutch goggles on. The only reason they don’t crash at turn 4 is because Norris takes evasive action. The only reason Norris doesn’t end up in the wall with + 150 km/h is because Norris takes evasive action. This is not racing. It is destruction derby.
PB
28th October 2024, 10:56
Well said @spafrancorchamps
Broderick Harper (@banbrorace)
28th October 2024, 15:09
What makes you think “van Zanten” is Dutch? LOL!!
Mayrton
28th October 2024, 11:18
Exactly. After last week the stewards (wouldn’t be surprised is the out in the open openly hating Max mr Johnny Herbert was one them) now make unclear what was very clear. Turn 4 incident is a minor one… if (and only if) Lando was ahead at the apex. So 10sec for that is plainly disqualifying yourself as enforcement officer. Turn 7 was a clear cut not correct move. 10 sec + points here are justified. So again FIA manages to make a mess of proceedings as they keep allowing bias to creep in. The only reason they let it, is because it is good for the championship and shareholder value.
Broderick Harper (@banbrorace)
28th October 2024, 15:12
You’re the biggest laugh on this forum.
Point out the evidence which shows Herbert “hates” Hamilton.
Calling out the Abu Dhabi farce of 2021 or saying that Silverstone that year was just as much fault on Max, is not “hate” by the way. Particularly, as he has called out Hamilton when he’s made mistakes.
Do you simply dislike all Brits?
Mayrton
29th October 2024, 9:57
Where do you get all of that? Are you alright? I am talking about the inconsistency of the stewarding in Austin vs Mexico and that this bias has to stop. It is ridiculing the sport. How can you say in Austin it is ok and then in the US give 10sec whereas all others similar incidents received a 5sec penalty? This discrimination and not being able to see events in isolation but somehow connecting them, is demolishing the entire credibility and impartiality of the FIA. And why would you ever have the nationalities fighting for a championship represented in the stewards office in the first place. That’s a textbook error.
On Herbert.. he has stated it many times he has a thing against Max. Probably because he is on the other side of the spectrum when it comes to having racing skills and talent. I can see why he wouldn’t like him. I like 99,9% of Brits by the way. Love them. Just not so fond of the press/media and their antics and some F1 characters, that’s all. On a population of 65million that’s not too bad I would say.
SteveP
29th October 2024, 19:04
@Mayrton
The UK reference to “the gutter press” should show you that Brits with working braincells share the feeling.
More likely because he raced alongside Schumacher and had problems from MS dodgy driving and Max has the same tendencies, sometimes “red mist” moments but mostly cold calculated dodgy moves.
David BR (@david-br)
28th October 2024, 13:13
@spafrancorchamps I agree near enough: I think turn 7 was worth the penalty and a caution (black and white flag) indicating one more such incident and he’s red-carded. But I think he got the message.
In retrospect a 5-second stop-go to be served immediately would have been fairer since it was clearly in his favour to get past and block Norris from keeping up with the Ferraris. But that would be particularizing the penalty to the race and championship situation, which would be an objectively incorrect penalty.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:33
When I read about the penalty points, I thought there was a reporting error, and surely the points on the license related to the second incident, not the first, or maybe they’d issued on point for each. It seems absurd, considering some of the things other drivers have received points for, that the turn seven incident did not receive a points penalty in addition to a race penalty.
JackL
28th October 2024, 13:58
I agree with you totally, and one point to add to all the Max fans: Max appeared to again lift off the brakes to edge ahead into the corner. He almost barrelled into the back of Sainz there trying to keep ahead of Norris. And thats ridiculous. At that speed he clearly could not make the corner and leave space for Norris.
grapmg
28th October 2024, 16:37
The penalty points are for the first incident at turn 4. But he did make the corner there. The 10s penalty is a standard penalty because this time Norris was ahead but I don’t understand why they gave penalty points for that one. At the second incident Max didn’t make the corner but the Stewards only gave a penalty for gaining a lasting advantage (not given the place back). The forcing of track was incidental (according to the Stewards). Maybe this is why they didn’t hand out penalty points for the second incident. I like the aggressive defense and dive bombs but if you don’t make the corner you should at least give the place back. So (as Max fan) I can only conclude that both penalty’s are deserved and according the rules. The second incident he clearly knew he had to give back that position but refused for tactical reasons. I would love to hear the radio calls between the team and Max about giving back that position. I think he should have done that immediately and than go back to racing so a bit disappointing to see that.
Davethechicken
28th October 2024, 19:04
Nonsense. I am not British. I don’t see bias against Max. He has made his own bed. Max was ready to collide with Lando in T4 & T7. Just like last week in T7 he had absolutely no hope of making the corner either time.quite deliberate.
Lando was reluctant to even attempt to pass Max before the pit stops, he didn’t want to give Max the opportunity to try to ram him yet again. Just like 2021.
Illusive (@illusive)
28th October 2024, 7:38
I just remember 21 silverstone when Max was not just taken out but his car totalled as well which looked even worse than anything that happened yesterday and see this and I say this is just absolute caving into pressure from Mclaren and the english media which has its pitchforks out for the dutch driver. Max deserved the penalties but at max a total of 10 seconds.
Many will be happy here but don’t see the problem of what happened today because it went their way and this is what F1 has become now and the same fans will again be angry in one of these decisions when Max will be the benefactor. So the problem is just about popularity and the which voice supports a camp.
Terrion (@terrion)
28th October 2024, 9:13
Oh right, the bait. The bait for racefans. The bait chosen especially to bait racefans. Racefans’ bait. That bait?
Broderick Harper (@banbrorace)
28th October 2024, 15:15
Yep!! It strange that at the end of that move, with exactly the same situation with LeClerc the frenchman sensibly yielded.
But it’s not fun to let the facts get in the way of a good old fashioned conspiracy.
Ben
28th October 2024, 9:25
@illusive
In Silverstone you had Hamilton going for a legitimate move. He was along side going down the straight. Hamilton lifted first and actually tried to back out of it but started drifting wide. A clumsy one sure, but it the intent was to make the corner. People have overtaken into that corner multiple times in the past and Hamilton even did it again later in the same race, which proves it is possible.
Yesterday turn 8 from Max was simply dangerous. No one has ever overtaken into turn 8. He threw it down the inside of Lando and went 3 car widths off track. No intent of making a safe overtake, no intent of even making the corner! That should have been a drive through. You just can’t do that.
Turn 4 was a legitimate move, one which we’ve seen countless times and one which drivers are often punished for. Under the guidelines whoever is in front at the apex dictates the corner. Norris was ahead so a penalty for max was fully justified. It was 5 seconds last weekend so 10 seconds yesterday was arguably harsh. However, as it’s such a big talking point with so many warnings in the last week I can fully understand why they applied the 10 second penalty.
Osnola
28th October 2024, 15:37
Silverstone 21 should have been a black flag incident for hamilton.
He deliberately hit verstsppen.
SteveP
28th October 2024, 19:08
That would be with a vicious application of staying where he was when MV chopped right in his signature “I overtook back-off” move. It’s a bully tactic, which mostly works, except when someone is willing to get a metaphorical bloody nose from standing their ground.
Unfortunately, MV did it a fraction too early. I call the aftermath a self-inflicted wound.
Under the rules of the day, LH was pushing his luck, and got a more than 50% fault ruling. Sympathy for MV taking such a heavy tag on the barriers seemed to contribute more to the penalty than actual facts.
Davethechicken
28th October 2024, 19:10
Nonsense. Max knew Lewis was there they were side by side in the straight. Max turned in with an acre of room to his left.
Did he expect Lewis to vanish?
Max was a fool to not realise he would come off worse and have a big accident.
Hotbottoms (@hotbottoms)
28th October 2024, 10:05
It amuses me how Verstappen fans keep bringing up Silverstone 2021 to justify Verstappen’s antics. I mean, I can see some connection to the 2021 season and the battles against Hamilton, but how on earth is that relevant to his 2024 battles against Norris?
David BR (@david-br)
28th October 2024, 13:24
@hotbottoms I’m not sure it amuses me as such, but what riles me more is the fact that Verstappen and his fans take pride in him ‘giving no quarter’ as his MO and then collapse into self-pity and hysterical accusations when he comes out worse. I’d hope Hamilton would do the same again in the Copse situation and try a bit harder to not understeer. Verstappen would still turn in and the outcome would still be the same. Nobody is allowed to pass him when it’s ‘all or nothing’ in his head (like Mexico yesterday).
Davethechicken
28th October 2024, 19:12
Seems all Lewis would need to have done is not to attempt to have made copse. If he hadn’t braked he would have been ahead at the apex and have free reign to punt Mas off.
Tricky (@tricky)
28th October 2024, 10:49
Let’s also bring up Spa 2007, 25 seconds for giving the place back but still being deemed to have gained an advantage.
The rules of engagement have changed since both incidents, comparisons are pointless and you can’t compare penalties.
Jim from US (@jimfromus)
28th October 2024, 10:58
NOR moved away yesterday. VER turned in at Silverstone. Only difference. The sad thing about yesterday is that the penalties are 3 years too late. No penalty for Brazil 2021. You knew the fix was in.
David BR (@david-br)
28th October 2024, 13:19
@illusive The stewards judged the attempt to overtake at Copse legitimate and Hamilton ‘mostly’ to blame. Verstappen gave just about enough room, in their view, but Hamilton understeered, in the view.
The fact is Verstappen clearly looked, saw where Hamilton was and turned in anyway. Hence the decision that Hamilton was ‘mostly’ to blame (not ‘entirely’).
In my view, like various pundits and former drivers, it was a racing incident, 50/50. The idea that it was some kind of lethal attempt was conjured by a Red Bull team without any ethical compass (with even Newey indicating that he had overreacted at the time in the febrile atmosphere generated around the incident). Motor racing is a high risk sport, Verstappen makes no qualms about racing hard, and a high speed collision (for him) is a possible outcome.
Far worse was the way he planted his car on top of Hamilton’s at Monza in clear retaliation and making no attempt to check on his fellow driver after (Hamilton had asked whether Max was OK at Silverstone). That tells you what you need to know about the difference between the two.
SteveP
28th October 2024, 19:17
+1
Couldn’t put it better.
Silverstone 21 was entirely avoidable with a small effort on the part of Max.
MV actions meant we missed out on what would likely have been several or many laps of to and fro action, as each was fast in a different section of the track.
drmouse (@drmouse)
28th October 2024, 8:03
I voted correct for both.
While the overall penalty for the two incidents may have been a little harsh, it needed to be. Max has been pulling this carp for years wherever he’s under pressure. The stewards should have stepped in years ago, but as they haven’t, they need to be harsh if they have any chance of stopping it, sent even more important discussing others from copying it.
drmouse (@drmouse)
28th October 2024, 8:04
Discouraging
MacLeod (@macleod)
28th October 2024, 8:21
Did I miss something which collision they are talking about they didn’t hit each other?
Avro Anson (@avroanson)
28th October 2024, 8:36
I didn’t see any collision (or a crash). It’s just the usual lack of proof-reading on this site. I know Keith and Will get a lot of material published quickly, but a lot of it is repetitive and there are lots of errors of this nature. I’d prefer to see quality over quantity.
drmouse (@drmouse)
28th October 2024, 14:10
Was this supposed to be in reply to my comment? I didn’t say anything about a collision…
JOA20
28th October 2024, 8:05
Had the two incidents happened on different laps, with the penalty for the first one being notified in-between, I think I’d have given 5 seconds for it and 10 for the second one. But turn 7 happened a few seconds after turn 4, it was clear as day that Max was seeing red (papaya?). No penalty points for the second incident is ridiculous, it was way more deliberate than the first one.
Jere (@jerejj)
28th October 2024, 8:05
T4: Correct
T7 (I mistook it for T8 previously because T6 has two apexes): Slightly Too Lenient
RBAlonso (@rbalonso)
28th October 2024, 9:35
Were you not calling for a black flag yesterday? There’s 3 penalties between a 10s penalty and a black flag.
Jere (@jerejj)
29th October 2024, 7:46
Yes & alternatively a drive-through would’ve been equally fair.
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
28th October 2024, 8:37
I would have let the first one go especially as Norris decided to stay ahead anyway and other drivers escaped unharmed with similar moves
But an immediate drive thru for the second one would be appropriate as it was foul play on purpose. It was dangerous and gained him track position he didn’t deserve to have. A drive thru on such occasions is a much better deterrent as it releases the driver of the other car.
Jere (@jerejj)
28th October 2024, 9:08
I wouldn’t have minded about drive-through either.
Ben
28th October 2024, 9:35
+1
While Max got the 10 seconds, it really did hurt Landos race. It seems a bit unfair that a driver can get ahead off track and then proceed to damage another’s drivers race for 20+ laps until they pit. The penalty should be 10 seconds for the move and you have to give the position back or a drive through within 3 laps which has the same effect.
The annoying thing is that cheating and “Gaining a lasting advantage” is sometimes worth the penalty and that should never be the case. Look at Perez yesterday, he was up 5 places after his start and only got 5 seconds for it. I’d argue he saved at least 5 seconds by not battling around 5 cars under racing conditions.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:03
Ben: “a drive through within 3 laps”
Going off at a tangent slightly, whilst we never hear of such penalties nowadays, when we were seeing them last used, the “within 3 laps” clause was being exploited, which I always felt was wrong. That three laps window was created in the days when communication with the driver was by pit boards and flags. Once the team received the penalty instruction, they had to scramble to get the pit board to say “box now” and the driver might have gone past the pits before they’d had a chance to do that. So that was the first lap of leeway. The second time round, the driver sees the message, but by the team he sees it he has already passed the pit entrance, so he needs another lap to get back around to serve the penalty. i.e. the three laps was the maximum that was needed to allow for these circumstances, not a tactical option for the team and driver being penalised.
No-one ever updated that wording to keep track with technology. Instead we’d hear drivers told they had a penalty immediately but also told to stay out for another two laps to try to build up a gap, or to hold up the driver behind for as long as possible. We also heard teams telling drivers that they’d been penalised, but it was only two laps left in the race so stay out, ignore the penalty, and we can argue about it aftwerwards.
Teams should not have the ability to use the penalty tactically. These days Race Control should be able to speak directly to the driver and issue a no-arguments penalty instruction, “PENALTY, BOX NOW, PENALTY, BOX NOW”.
Ben
28th October 2024, 14:03
I’m in complete agreement with you there Alan! It should be the next possible opportunity. Any driver gaining any kind of advantage needs to be completely removed. I said 3 laps as that’s the rule, but I’d have no complaints at all if that were removed!
Another example of drivers exploiting the rules is actually where they choose give the position back. The one which stands out to me most is actually Max in Saudi 21. He did so in a way where he’s still get a run at Hamilton into T1 on the next lap. That shouldn’t be allowed. The place should be swapped and the driver giving the place back shouldn’t be able to attack for at least a full lap.
We all want to see great racing but sadly that’s being removed from this generation who just force everyone off track.
roadrunner (@roadrunner)
28th October 2024, 14:55
A hhree lap grace period does make sense regarding safety. A car could be damaged after a collision or have a puncture or need to switch to wet weather tires. Teams should be allowed to pit for urgent repairs before having to serve a penalty.
Maybe it could be reduced to two laps though…
AlanD
28th October 2024, 19:09
I think that is already covered in the current rules anyway. i.e. if a car has to serve a time penalty, the team is not allowed to work on the car until the time penalty has been served. If they start work too soon, the car has to serve the time penalty on the next lap instead. So if they did come in for a drivethru penalty but had to stop for rain tyres for safety, that’s fair enough, but they would automatically have to do the drive through on the next lap instead.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
28th October 2024, 8:59
If you ignore (or don’t know yet) what will happen next, then I think that the penalty for Verstappen for T4 was too harsh. Yes he pushed Norris wide, but stayed on the track AND he lost the position to Norris anyway. A penalty of 10 seconds plus 2 penalty points is harsher than anybody got last week in US and it does seem inconsistent.
For the turn 7 incident I think that the penalty was too lenient. That’s the incident that he should have got penalty points for. This was a poor execution of a dive bomb. I don’t know if a 10 second stop and go penalty is still being used, but that seems more fitting.
In the end I don’t understand why Verstappen is not capable of playing the long game. Just accept that Norris overtakes you, follow him home, only lose a couple of points and secure the WDC in the upcoming races. His personality really hurts him here.
Kevin C (@kev-f1)
28th October 2024, 9:33
But the issue as many see it is that the punishment for Norris in Austen was the wrong call, he was pushed off the track by Max divebombing the corner, he didn’t stay on track because he wasn’t in control of his car at the apex! So the stewards we lenient and “only” gave Norris a 5 second penalty!
Max has a looooong history of doing the same thing – to maintain his position / advantage he will literally drive others off track, and has for too long gotten away with it! So for me this was an appropriate punishment, but may have been better as a drive though / black flag too!
PeteB (@peteb)
28th October 2024, 12:51
@kev-f1 That’s the problem though… They’ve made the wrong call last week and then even when it was questioned, they dug their heels in and defended it even further. Also as you said, Max has got away with it multiple times in the past. The FIA have effectively endorsed that type of move as acceptable.
Suddenly they say “actually… no, not this week. You can have a 20 second penalty and 2 penalty points for doing what we’ve previously allowed.”
I’m not defending Max or his driving (or any of the other drivers who have done it). You shouldn’t be allowed to push other drivers off the track but F1 is all about exploiting loopholes and pushing rules to their absolute limits. If the FIA don’t define clear limits, the drivers and teams will push until they find them out for themselves.
sumedh
28th October 2024, 9:37
Fully agree on the first 2 paragraphs.
On the 3rd paragraph, infact, I Max did play a long game. By doing that egregious foul on turn 7, he ensured that Norris couldn’t go after the Ferraris. Because of that, Max lost only 10 points to Lando (P2 to P6). Without that Turn 7 foul, he could have lost 13 points to Lando (P1 to P4).
Matthijs (@matthijs)
28th October 2024, 9:41
I didn’t look at it that way, but you are right. Norris lost a lot of ground to the Ferraris due to Verstappen’s dive bomb.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
28th October 2024, 10:43
I disagree with myself after reading more comments. Norris got ahead of Verstappen at turn 4, but Leclerc got ahead of both of them. So because of Verstappen not giving him space, Norris lost a place to Leclerc. I’d say 10 seconds is fair.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:10
“I disagree with myself after reading more comments”
It is really good to see people being open-minded to other views. That is all too often lacking on here. My opinion last week was that five seconds seemed unduly lenient because it put Max’s dive bomb into the same category as people making legit attempts to overtake and not quite being able to pull it off.
Terrion (@terrion)
28th October 2024, 9:08
T4: 5 seconds for pushing opponent off track seems fair. It happened on many other instances, but I’m glad that he receive any penalty. I did not really expect any penalty given other Max’s precedents
T7: Max intentionally didn’t make the corner just to crash/slow Lando down. He even admitted it in one of his interviews. Which even though is strategically the correct move, should absolutely not belong to the sport. I think drive trough or stop and go would have been a more suitable penalty.
Overall, when a driver is happy with the outcome, despite braking rules and being punished for that, it means the penalty was too lenient. And Max was happy with the outcome.
drmouse (@drmouse)
28th October 2024, 9:17
Yeah, that’s true.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:18
“5 seconds for pushing opponent off track seems fair”
To me, it doesn’t. I feel that pushing an opponent off track is much worse than over-taking off track. With an overtake off track, the drivers can acknowledge that they’ve cut the corner and easily give the place back, no major harm done, and the stewards only need to step in if the driver doesn’t fix it themselves. I still think the five seconds is too lenient as a driver on better tyres but lacking the skills to overtake fairly might think it worth while to cheat, i.e. knowingly make an illegal pass, take a trivial five second penalty, and race off to a ten or fifteen second lead. We do see that happen, it isn’t just theorietical. On the other hand, forcing a driver off track is potentially dangerous, not something the drivers can remedy themselves, and is simply not allowed regardless of the outcome. So I think a five second penalty for a very deliberate move is far too lenient.
ludewig
28th October 2024, 9:31
The stewards were inconsistent with last week, when Norris got 5 seconds. So either that one was too lenient, or the turn 4 decision at Mexico was too harsh.
RBAlonso (@rbalonso)
28th October 2024, 9:48
I don’t like 5s penalties so I’d go for a 10s for turn 4. Norris is entitled to room on the exit and it’s a clear push. Norris probably should have still conceded the position, and he may well have if Turn 7 didn’t happen. So 10s for Max there is fair enough.
For Turn 7, I’d have went for 20s, as it’s definitely worse and potentially dangerous. Alonso got 20s in Melbourne under that justification.
Ultimately, all the drivers need to respect track limits more. We need harsher penalties when anyone is off the road. Like with Magnussen in Saudi, I think once the penalty gets to 20s or greater, it must be served within 3 laps.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:24
“Norris probably should have still conceded the position, and he may well have if Turn 7 didn’t happen”
Yes, I was thinking while watching it that after last weekend’s penalties, the pit wall would probably be telling Lando to give the place back and try again, but the turn seven incident eliminated that possibility, so for the person who said Norris should have been penalised for passing off track I don’t think that is a valid argument. Equally, if Norris had braked when pushed out on turn 4, to ensure he didn’t pass off track, he’d likely have been picked off by the cars behind him, (LeClerc, Hamilton) giving Max a significant advantage.
Pjotr (@pietkoster)
28th October 2024, 9:52
No matter how you look at it, it was inconsistent again. Next FIA problem is coming, Verstappen wil swiftly adapt the changing the rules, he will overtake only on the outside hoping he is forced off. 10 seconds for everyone who dares to defend the inside and pushes one off track doing so. It was over the edge racing, luckely there was room enough for Lando to avoid a crash. It was great to see them fight.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 12:27
@pietkoster I’m not sure they were fighting – Max was trying to torpedo Lando and Lando was trying to keep his car in one piece. If that’s fighting and by that I assume you meant racing, then it’s really not racing. It’s like UFC style fighting with Max trying to kill Lando and Lando running away since he knows any blow will be fatal.
NewVerstappenFan (@jureo)
28th October 2024, 10:27
So first one to harsh, second one to lenient.. so just about right.
Driving competitor off the track is somehow a new standard agianst anyone overtaking on the outside. What happened to proper racing?
Verstappen won’t change unless penalties are applied, to the point where it won’t benefit him to race in this maner.
Mind you others are doing the same, all overtaking on the outside is now subject to being driven off the track.
But then there is turn 8 incident, lunging from to far back, driving yourself and your competitor off the track.. What are was he thinking? Probably not much.
And this are guys who are well capable of racing cleanly, but not when it does not benefit them to do so.
So saddly penalties are a must.
David West
28th October 2024, 10:58
Max was ahead at the apex for the second move so what do the guidelines say about that one?
First one Norris was marginally ahead.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:26
David “Max was ahead at the apex for the second move so what do the guidelines say about that one?”
Since the FIA doesn’t publish these guidelines, we can only guess, but I was under the impression that they said that when another car is substantially alongside, you MUST leave room for it, regardless of which car is ahead.
Sonny Crockett (@sonnycrockett)
28th October 2024, 11:19
Max is a cheat.
There, I said it.
Tommy C (@tommy-c)
28th October 2024, 19:22
With each race that goes by, I’m struggling to disagree.
Sam Crawford (@samxc)
28th October 2024, 11:29
I would have given 5 seconds for the first incident at T4, and then a drive through penalty for the second incident at T7. All Max was interested in at that point was making sure Lando didn’t get past him, by essentially trying to run him off the road, and that’s dangerous driving and should be a harsher punishment.
Or lump both incidents together, called it the Lap 1 Incident and give him a singular 10 seconds stop and go penalty
PeteB (@peteb)
28th October 2024, 11:44
It’s difficult to answer because you have to look at it as 3 incidents – the one in Austin and the two in Mexico…
In my opinion, Max deserved both of his penalties in Mexico however I can see why he’d be unhappy considering the inconsistency the FIA are showing here. The FIA endorsed his driving in Austin and if Norris was ahead at turn 4 in Mexico, it was by no more than an inch but this time it’s a 10s penalty and 2 penalty points to Max.
I think Max should have been penalised in Austin and if he was, I don’t think either incident in Mexico would have happened. It feels a bit harsh to tell Max he’s allowed to drive like that and then throw the book at him a week later when he does the same thing.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 12:24
@peteb it’s really 4 because of Turn 1 at Austin. The incidents will always happen with Max. He can’t help himself under pressure.
PeteB (@peteb)
28th October 2024, 12:34
True… I think Max will always explore the limits of the rules though. My 4 year old does that and it’s important to make sure that the boundaries are set.
If he hits me in the face and I laugh about it, it’s a bit unfair to punish him the next time he does it.
Max has been doing this for years (and so have some other drivers at times to be fair) and more often than not, it’s allowed. If you leave a grey area in the rules, Max will explore it.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 13:05
@peteb it’s not a grey area. if it were, everyone would be doing it on every turn with an overtaking car. It’s a grey area specific to Max Verstappen mostly because he’s never been punished properly for it.
Everybody else has received penalties for offenses they didn’t even commit and in some cases for Max’s own offenses since the stewards had to punish someone but weren’t going to punish Max and there’s only 1 other person to blame.
You brought your son as an example. Imagine he throws something at you and hits you in the eye and then your wife punishes you for having 2 eyes. That’s kinda been the way that the FIA have dealt with Max over his career.
Of course, the moment he sees anyone he doesn’t like, he throws everything he has at their eyes.
MichaelN
28th October 2024, 11:59
I’ve long been in favour of penalties for the T4 move. It’s anti-racing to run someone off. But I can’t help but think there’s some overcorrection here for the FIA failing to penalise Verstappen in Texas where he also went wide himself. Because no other driver was penalised for the same move at the same turn, most notably Pérez on Stroll. That is unfair.
The T7 move is just not OK. While some might think a DSQ would be too much (I don’t), at least a drive through would have been much better than another time penalty because it would have taken Verstappen out of the pack within three laps. As it was, he used his unfairly gained position to block Norris and attempt to ensure a Ferrari win. That reminds one of Magnussen in Miami.
Maciek (@maciek)
28th October 2024, 12:19
This whole obsession about being ahead at the apex is a red herring – as last week’s and yesterday’s incidents have shown. A driver essentially making sure he’s ahead there but with no chance of making a clean move is not what the rule is meant to enforce. All rules are meant to be not only applied but also interpreted. If they weren’t, there’d be no need for a panel of stewards. Verstappen’s moves were clearly outside of what fair racing is supposed to be. Personally, if you want to dissuade more moves of this kind, apply harsher penalties and make them servable within a specified number of laps or they get doubled. Just make sure the parameters are clear for everyone.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 12:23
Hard disagree with everyone – the risk/reward is still there for Max to continue driving the way he has. Technically, if he kills Lando he’ll get a 10 second penalty (and that’s debatable) along with some penalty points that the stewards will initially give to the deceased driver and finally to Max after 1,000 calls from the entire world to do the right thing.
He’s unrepentant, he will do it again, and he has already done it over the rest of his career.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
28th October 2024, 14:48
Always talking about killing, putting both out of the race is already an advantageous scenario for verstappen with only 4 races remaining.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 15:16
These incidents are unscripted and anything can happen as we saw at Monza 2021 and Silverstone where Max did insane stuff going into that corner and also cut across as if it was some sort of exhibition where he was the only car on track.
Drivers are much more likely to get hurt as they try to avoid something or are rammed by a kamikaze F1 driver.
I still think Hamilton was lucky he survived Monza 2021.
Edvaldo
28th October 2024, 12:35
It was good enough since he obviously targeted Norris for those moves. He didn’t care about Sainz, Leclerc, or even Hamilton who also got close at a moment.
He wanted to wreck Norris’s race as much as he could and that’s it. So even if the penalties were too harsh in comparison to what he actually did, the fact that he at the moment only does this crap to his title rival more than justifies it.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th October 2024, 13:00
I’m not sure if you’re condoning or endorsing Max’s behavior.
AlanD
28th October 2024, 13:30
Michael, I read it as “more than justifies (it) the penalty”
David BR (@david-br)
28th October 2024, 13:09
I’ll post my immediate view and read the comments: slightly too lenient. I felt both penalties were correct, but he should have been issued with some kind of reprimand or caution (black and white flagged if that’s still a thing). Because one more turn 7 and I’d be blackflagging him from the race. (As he should have been at Jeddah 2021 where he clearly totally lost the plot and was doing just about anything, including brake testing.)
SteveP
28th October 2024, 19:34
He should have been hit with the reprimand several years ago and as it says on some medications “repeat as required until the problem is cleared”
I would suggest that if the stewards were still actively using the black/white flags, MV would have seen them so often he’d probably assume it was a group of his supporters waving.
Christopher Rehn (@chrischrill)
28th October 2024, 13:11
Turn 4: 10 seconds + 2 points is accurate. He ran him wide on purpose, forcing another driver off the track. Perfectly accurate penalty.
Turn 8: Max Verstappen ran Norris off the road with one single purpose – use his car to block Norris from passing no matter the cost. He was willing to have a high speed crash, endangering both Norris and potentially marshals. That should have been a drive-through at least, and possibly a black flag and disqualifying. Not to mention a boatload of penalty points on your license. He should not be racing in Brazil at all, similar to Magnussen earlier in the year.
kcrossle (@kcrossle)
28th October 2024, 13:51
“Dirty driving” is one of those things that’s hard to precisely measure but is one of those “I know it when I see it”.
There are 19 drivers to whom the rule-based approach works pretty well most of the time. Dirty bullies need to be booted from the playground until they learn how to play nicely.
As in Hamilton & Russell yesterday. That was hard and fast and fun to watch. Clean.
Matthijs (@matthijs)
28th October 2024, 13:53
Between 2026 and 2022 I organised a karting competition and I used the following rule: when a kart is more than half a width alongside you, both drivers leave each other enough room to both stay on the track. The rule was simple: it did not matter if you were attacking or defending and it did not matter whether you were slightly ahead at the apex or slightly behind, as long as there was someone more than a half kart width alongside, you leave room for both to stay on the track.
However, in reality it was not bullet proof. The rule did not prevent dive bombs on the inside, nor did it prevent people staying at the outside line when they should back off. It only works when people use common sense and are afraid of damage/injury. When I organised this competition I looked to F1 to find answers to solve the issue, but this year I feel that in F1 the problems with overtaking are much worse than in my kart competition.
Pinak Ghosh (@pinakghosh)
28th October 2024, 14:14
Sometimes the F1 stewards’ decisions are hard to understand. But on this occasion, it was quite clear and necessary. Immediately remembered Interlagos 2021.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
28th October 2024, 14:49
Yes, the 2nd incident did.
oweng (@oweng)
28th October 2024, 14:56
I think the first one was fair enough, although I can understand the arguments made for it being 5 seconds. The second one however was too lenient. That was a “red mist” action by Verstappen, at that point the racing was secondary and it seems it was just about retribution. I think there have been a few incidents of red mist actions not being penalised sufficiently (eg Vettel on Hamilton behind the safety car) and it doesn’t solve the problem. It groups deliberate foul play in with racing incidents that cross the line a bit but that aren’t malicious.
I would go for a drive through for those such incidents in future.
Velocityboy (@velocityboy)
28th October 2024, 15:33
I think the first penalty was fair and the second was too lenient. For the second he should have been black flagged and given a two race suspended race ban. Drivers should never use their car in that manner and a draconian penalty would make the point. The suspended race ban would hopefully ensure that Max changed his ways.
Neil (@neilosjames)
28th October 2024, 19:00
First one, fair enough. He might have thought he was ahead at the apex but wasn’t. Second, I’d say too lenient.
I don’t think the second incident was a mistake – it looked like a deliberate case of putting his car in a position to cause a collision, because he knew Norris would otherwise out-score him. Verstappen wouldn’t have done that to Sainz, or Leclerc – the only driver on the grid he would have done that to on Sunday is Norris. The reason being that double-DNFing with anyone else would be a disaster, but double-DNFing with Norris would be great.
So I saw that move as something similar to the famous Brazil 2021 move – a move done with indifference to fact it had a high chance of a heavy collision and two retired cars. In a title fight, I think driving like that deserves a harsher penalty than the ‘viewed in isolation’ standard 10-second penalty.
Tommy C (@tommy-c)
28th October 2024, 19:16
Turn 7 disgusted me honestly. He had no intention of making the corner. It was a deliberate attempt to take his opponent out one way or another. If not for Norris’ lightning reactions, they were both out of the race. Grosjean got a race ban for a number of clumsy moves. Max is now deliberately running other drivers off the road. He crossed the line in a massive way and sadly it was so predictable after he’d lost the place to Norris in the corners before.
scss (@scss)
28th October 2024, 20:35
How many remember Prost and Senna (times two)? How many remember Schumacher crashing out his adversary (and being stripped of his points and banned)?
This is not the demonition derby; it’s Formula 1. Crashing out your your opponent to win the Drivers Championship should be treated harshly.
I like Max and I like Lan, but I genuinely believe Max was attempting to sideline (albeit, in a more subtle manner than Schumacher) Lan even if meant taking himself out as well. If he had succeeded yesterday, Max would – for all practical purposes, have won the title.
Edvaldo
29th October 2024, 3:07
He already did that to Hamilton in Italy 2021 and admitted it on the radio even before leaving the car.
Max has been in two championship clashes and acted the same in both, barely capable of racing the other guy like a professional.
Patrick (@anunaki)
29th October 2024, 23:05
I’ve seen 5 second penalties for both faults so it seemed a bit harsh.