With the most recent October meeting of the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council, Formula 1’s rule makers have published their latest draft of the sporting regulations that will govern the 2025 edition of the world championship.
Although the WMSC appears to have responded to recent controversy over the fastest lap bonus point by removing it entirely from the rulebook for next season, there’s one area of the regulations that has remained noticeably untouched: the rule that allows drivers to change tyres under a red flag.Despite existing in the regulations for decades, the freedom of teams to change tyres when races are suspended has been a contentious one among drivers and fans over the years. The 2011 Monaco Grand Prix was one of the first times the rule faced serious criticism.
The final act of that race was shaping up to be a tense and thrilling conclusion to rival that of the famous 1992 finish between Ayrton Senna and Nigel Mansell. With under 20 laps remaining, Sebastian Vettel – who had assumed the lead from Jenson Button by staying out under a mid-race Safety Car – was leading the race on tyres nearing 50 laps old.
But behind him, Fernando Alonso in the Ferrari had closed within DRS range having pitted under the Safety Car, while Jenson Button was closing on the pair of them after making a second stop under green flag conditions.
With 15 laps remaining, the top three were covered by less than a second. Vettel was clearly struggling, with his tyres visibly in a poor condition and having to defend from Alonso into Sainte Devote with every lap. The final laps of the race promised to be intense.
At a stroke, the tension evaporated. Vettel easily held off Alonso and Button at the restart to take his fifth win in the first six races – much to the frustration of fans who had been looking forward to an epic finish.
At the time, even BBC commentators Martin Brundle and David Coulthard had been caught by surprise that the regulations allowed Red Bull to change their tyres under red flag. A major rule change introduced for the 2007 season compelled every driver to run both compounds of tyre for at least one lap during the race and the ability to change tyres under a red flag potentially offered a free pit stop and a major advantage to drivers who had a red flag appear at an opportune moment of the race.
After what many considered the most processional grand prix in history, F1 CEO Stefano Domenicali insisted the rules would be changed.
“This year we have a red flag on the first lap and everyone has automatically made their pit stop,” he said. “We must not let that happen again. We must anticipate such scenarios better and cover them with the rules.”
Six months on the rule is a talking point once again following last weekend’s race. A dejected Lando Norris complained three of his rivals, including championship leader Max Verstappen “got lucky” because of “a rule that no one agrees with.”
But the rule isn’t going to change any time soon. The FIA’s first draft of F1’s 2025 regulations still permits teams to “change wheels and tyres” if a race is suspended, among other limited work they can do on their cars, under article 57.4 b) vii).
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By allowing F1 teams the liberty to change tyres under a red flag, the world championship is in direct contrast with other major motorsports series such as IndyCar.
So, many would ask, why doesn’t the FIA simply delete the line in the regulations allowing teams to change tyres under a red flag? Because, naturally, nothing is ever that simple in Formula 1.
There are several obvious arguments why F1 should follow IndyCar’s lead. First, Norris’s point that the ‘free pit stop’ essentially hands a major advantage to those who have not pitted before a red flag is correct. It can be hard to swallow when a driver is handed a position they have not ‘earned’ or even lose one they deserve because the fickle hand of fate dealt them a red flag they could not have foreseen.
It also undermines F1’s ‘two-compound’ rule. Although F1 technically does not have a compulsory pit stop under its regulations, the two-compound rule means there is effectively a compulsory pit stop for all intents and purposes. There are only two possible ways for teams to satisfy the compound requirement in dry races: either by pitting their cars during the race to change onto a different compound at a pit stop, or by getting to change their tyres at no cost during a red flag. The former costs a driver around 25 seconds in race time to do. The latter costs nothing.
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But there are other reasons why the rule written as it is may be the best and most practical approach. The most important factor to consider in a debate like this, of course, is safety. A red flag is ultimately a matter of safety – literally stopping the race is the most drastic action that the race director can take and is most commonly used in the event of a major accident or dangerous situation on track.
Although far from ideal, allowing tyres to be changed under a red flag ensures that all participants who take the restart can effectively do so on an equal footing to each other. With it almost certain that every driver restarting will have fulfilled their two-compound requirement, it means the remaining laps can simply be a straight sprint to the finish, where it is up to the drivers to find a way to get around on track if they want to gain any positions – much like how racing is supposed to be.
While the rule can undermine strategy entirely and result in ‘snakes and ladders’ outcomes that arbitrarily reward or punish drivers indiscriminately, it’s far from the only unfair element in Formula 1. Mechanical problems, collisions, penalties outside of the driver’s control and even weather changes can all transform a driver’s fortunes one way or another. That is the nature of motorsport. So, one could argue, why should the risk of a red flag be treated any differently?
The FIA could amend the regulations so that any tyre changes under a red flag simply do not ‘count’ towards the two-compound requirement. In doing that, they would effectively be adding a compulsory pit stop to grands prix, compelling them to make at least one stop under green flag conditions and meaning any tyres changes under a red flag will not ‘count’ towards their obligation.
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It’s difficult to find a solution to this problem that does not involve complex and complicated rewriting of the regulations to avoid loopholes and not risk creating new problems as a result. Scrapping the two compound requirement and allowing teams to run whatever they want to in races – even if that means without stopping at all – could be a way to reduce the impact of red flags, but will have a profound impact on the racing in typical conditions too. And it wouldn’t change the situation which occured last weekend.
As with so many aspects of F1’s rule book, finding a solution which works in all possible situations is not as straightforward as it often seems. Fixes which appear simple often introduce unforeseen consequences which wily teams are ready to exploit. While the current arrangement is unsatisfactory for many, they may have to accept it and, in the teams’ cases, prepare their strategies accordingly.
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Formula 1
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- “Stressful”: Perez and Piastri vexed by stewards’ U-turns over deleted lap times
ed24f1 (@ed24f1)
6th November 2024, 7:23
Removing the ability to make cheap pitstops under VSC is a much higher priority in my view considering they are more common than a red flag. It’s my absolute least favourite regulation.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 8:02
That’d make things risky in case of a puncture or front wing damage.
notagrumpyfan
6th November 2024, 8:28
Of all the interventions, VSC should be the least controversial; it doesn’t eliminate the racing gaps, and provides the least advantage for those who make a pit stop.
But if that’s your main concern then just reduce the pit lane speed limit as well under VSC.
Jeanrien (@jeanrien)
6th November 2024, 13:37
Actually that’s a good idea, reduce speed limit in pitlane during VSC and SC. Allow change of tires under red flag (for safety purpose) but add a predefined pitlane time to the driver to define his post pit position.
When race resume, easy for these drivers to pull aside and drop back to their racing position.
Probably as fair as it gets and given the length and complexity of the rulebook, two extra lines like these wouldn’t hurt.
Doh
7th November 2024, 19:05
This sounds perfect.
I suppose with the last one it’s maybe more simple to just say that if you change tyres under red it then your car is just pushed to the back. In order of who changes first.
Of course this does mean that some driver can lose out heavily due to a red flag even if no driver can gain from a free stop. For example if a drivers rivals have pitted during a race for the their mandatory tyre change but he is yet to. A red flag would ruin his race, especially if he was just about to put before the red.
Don’t think there’s a way to get around that but it’s definitely a problem. Maybe allow tyre charges for drivers that have not yet done their mandatory but add 20-25 seconds to where they were before the red flag then push them back into the que. So they’ll still loose a pit stop but not be so heavily disadvantaged by the red flag.
Tbh this could be done for all cars during a red flag too. Especially since it’ll allow for situations where the track is getting wet or drying during a safety car.
I guess in hindsight maybe it’s better to allow tyre changes during red flags but you lose a pre set amounts of time relative to the field before the red flag. If that makes sense!
Mayrton
6th November 2024, 7:27
It hasn’t been done yet since the right drivers benefitted from it until now. Now it interrupts their revenue stream for 2024, they will look into it. It must be hard being a FIA official when you have been sold out (by Todd) to a commercial rights holder.
Lee1
6th November 2024, 14:01
The obvious solution is to not count the tyre change as a compound change and to then restart the cars under a safety car where they have to fall back to their previous gaps. it still leaves a couple of issues including the fact the the car that changed it’s tyres now has more speed. But it at least fixes some of the issues. Perhaps they could give a time penalty for changing the tyres under a red flag… (Perhaps the average put stop time)
Andrie
8th November 2024, 21:19
This doesn’t make Brazil any different though. Cause once it’s declared rain, 2 compound requirement is no longer.
MarcusAurelius (@marcusaurelius)
6th November 2024, 7:32
Not to mention the effect of a now required pitstop near the end of the race where the whole field is now bunched up versus one with a stretched out field.
An Sionnach
6th November 2024, 7:50
For how long have drivers been able to change tyres during a red flag? I thought they could always do this? It’s possible to improve things… what happened to aggregate time after the red flag? I don’t like safety cars as they compress the grid and someone who had lapped the field is then reeled back in. I’d like to see more yellow flags, VSCs and red flags (with aggregate time) and fewer safety cars. Red flags should still be rare. Since you’re in the pits when the race is red flagged, I don’t see changing the tyres is a huge problem, but that can be changed. It would be interesting to see what would have happened. I wonder if the clamour over this rule has been amplified by those even Adrian Newey has suggested are overly-invested in their heroes. Sky quotes Lando suggesting the rule is the worst ever. It can be changed and we can see if that makes it fairer. It’s far from the worst rule, however. If it was different and Max still won then another rule would be to blame. In conditions like this there will be many incidents and the finishing order will be influenced by things out of the hands of the main challengers. It’s still good to have rules that make things as fair as possible. If the red flag comes with aggregate time, those who change tyres, even for safety, can have 20s added to their times.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 8:06
Literally nothing wrong with the field getting bunched up because of SC & especially with unlapping.
SC is definitely better in general than red-flagging as this way races stay ongoing.
Aggregate time would simply be excessive, not to mention unfairly penalizing those in absolute need of tyre changing or other repairs, & defining whether someone needs them or not could also get complicated in the long term.
Overall, nothing wrong with how things are presently & have always been or for a long time, so people should be reasonable & careful with what they wish for.
notagrumpyfan
6th November 2024, 8:38
Both SC and Red Flag are totally wrong and unjust as they eliminate the hard fought racing gaps. VSC should be preferred in all instances.
If Marshalls need more ‘space’/safety then red flag the race and subsequently release the cars in line with previous gaps. Tyre changes and repairs should be done before or after the Red Flag stoppage (or increase the previous gap).
notagrumpyfan
6th November 2024, 10:31
Literally nothing wrong () especially with unlapping.
S
6th November 2024, 11:16
I guess the question is: What is a “true racing fan?”
Different people like different aspects of racing – and I’d certainly argue that one can still be a “true fan” without relying on the restoration of competition-defeating field spread in an interrupted race.
Most people watch sports of any kind for the competitive element – the closer that competition is and the longer it lasts, the more value it has.
It’s no surprise that Safety Car periods and Red Flag stoppages are usually present in the races viewers rate the highest.
MichaelN
6th November 2024, 9:12
What? One of the key characteristics of GP racing is the length of its races. Strategy is a key element of any race. A reset of that creates essentially two races, both of which are the lesser for it.
It’s one if the reasons endurance racing is also now so much less interesting. The Daytona 24h a few years ago when Alonso competed never had more than an hour or so of uninterrupted racing. It was a pale imitation of the real thing.
S
6th November 2024, 11:21
Not sure if you caught the Aussie Supercars at Bathurst this year – but viewers (in addition to the competitors and even the officials) rated it as extremely boring, simply because there were no SC’s to bring the pack back together for almost the entire duration of the 1000km.
This is one of the most highly regarded and competitive endurance races in the world, mind you…
M2X
6th November 2024, 15:06
Apparently its only highly regarded and competitive because the uncompetitive field gets bunched up multiple times in a race.
S
7th November 2024, 8:12
Yes – they are provided with opportunities for competition.
Procession is not something that anyone wants.
It’s both a natural and a deliberate feature of most endurance racing series – when conditions dictate or justify, the cars are brought back together. In addition to the safety benefits, it provides strategic opportunity and benefits the on-track product.
All positives. At least to the vast majority of viewers.
plyschak
6th November 2024, 7:52
I believe F1 has the option for standing restart or rolling restart behind SC. So if standing restart is called, let them change tires under red. And when restart behind SC is called, no change under red and leave the SC out there for 3 laps so everyone can pit under yellow and safely rejoin at the end of the pack. In every situation there will be someone gaining an advantage, there is no fair solution.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 8:01
That’d make things unnecessarily complicated.
Some times someone loses out & gains on other occasions, so things shouldn’t be changed for the sake of changing just because of this inevitable side effect.
bosco moroz
6th November 2024, 22:22
Absolutely agree.
Don’t forget one of the most obvious reasons the rule was put in place, red flags are often leave debris everywhere;
giving a free tire change after navigating an accident site was for safety reasons.
Indycar must have recently changed the rule, I believe this came up not too many years ago and someone is always happy and mad. I also remember Will Power’s car not re-firing and losing the race he dominated after a red flag in Indy a few years back. Its Racing. A pretty good mirror of life, no amount of legislation will make it perfect or pretty, and if it did, it would probably be quite boring.
cool110
6th November 2024, 20:42
Rolling (re)start is only used when it’s too wet for a standing start, in which case it’s already legal to take a single tyre set the full distance. Also if rain starts after a large crash your rule would be sending them out to a wet track on slicks
MacLeod (@macleod)
6th November 2024, 7:54
As the Red Flag is technical the same from the 1950s. All cars are in the pit and allowed to repair/change tyres all in the allowed time. Now in the rain the 2 compound tyres rules is not there so it could in the future also a problem….
Removing Red flag is silly and changing I don’t think that is going to help either. Just keep it as it was is the best.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 8:00
What loophole? No such thing exists & nothing has ever been wrong with allowing tyre changes & or repairs during race suspensions, not to mention banning them would have unintended consequences in the long term or only allowing them under given circumstances would make things complicated, given room for interpretation.
Additionally, lap 1 shouldn’t be treated differently in this regard either despite what happened in Monaco.
Mayrton
6th November 2024, 8:23
Let’s not forget this whole thing has only become relevant since FIA started throwing Red Flag like they were yellows. Their overall attitude and approach is at the heart of this issue.
George.be
6th November 2024, 8:29
The family of Jules Bianchi want a word with you.
notagrumpyfan
6th November 2024, 8:41
You’ll hate me for saying this, but all drivers (including the one you referred to) were the ones ignoring the double waved yellow and creating the dangerous situations.
MichaelN
6th November 2024, 9:16
With the written permission of the race director.
notagrumpyfan
6th November 2024, 10:48
The problem with that story is that AFAIK it has never been formally shared and it remains unclear if this included an ‘at least’ or other conditions.
But anyways it confirms OP’s conclusion that FIA’s ‘overall attitude and approach is at the heart of this issue’.
mzs16 (@mzs16)
8th November 2024, 14:51
Pretty much this – and we now have VSC, which also would have gone a long way towards preventing Bianchi’s crash.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:36
notagrumpyfan, your statement is false, and was confirmed as false by Charlie Whiting at the time. (And that was before the report and legal situation which followed).
Mayrton
6th November 2024, 16:42
I most certainly hear you, but there is middle ground to be found.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 14:27
Mayrton Fortunately, red-flagging during races has barely been a thing this year.
BMW P85 V10
6th November 2024, 21:40
It just became a thing since Max took profit out of it.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:34
“Throwing red flags like they were yellows” is an odd statement given that yellows are thrown by marshals under their own recognisance (thus are quite common) and red flags, like virtual safety cars and physical safety cars, are thrown by Race Control only after receiving a referral and making an assessment, and therefore quite rare.
Palindnilap (@palindnilap)
6th November 2024, 8:26
Actually there is also a safety risk with the current rule. When the rain is approaching red flag conditions, it incentivizes drivers to stay on track on worn intermediates when the track would be perfectly raceable on full wets. Which in turn incentivizes the stewards to red-flag the race in order to avoid those very drivers to crash. Which in turn further incentivizes the drivers to stay on track… Is it so surprising that full wets are virtually never used in a race ?
Forbidding any tyre change after a red flag comes with problems indeed, but the tyre change just shouldn’t be for free, there should be some kind of penalty. For instance, it could mean starting from the pit lane. This would put drivers who pitted for the right tyres at an advantage, which is desirable incentive-wise. And to solve the Monaco 2024 problem, drivers should still be required to use two compounds in at least one of the parts of the broken race. I am not entirely sure whether those two suggestions would be enough, but it would already be much better than the present situation.
Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
6th November 2024, 13:04
@palindnilap Good point regarding incentivising staying out on the wrong tyres for the conditions and therefore inviting the red flag they were looking for. For what it’s worth, my concept was to use aggregate times at the moment the red flag was waved to set the positions of the drivers for the restart, but then apply a say 25 second penalty (approximately equivalent to a pit stop) to any of those drivers who wanted to change tyres to determine their restart position. There is no way to account for every situation and restore 100% parity with the pre-red flag running order, and there are more rules you could add on top to try to account for some of those, but it would at least seem more fair than a free pit stop and maybe curb some of the ‘red flag gambling’ you mentioned.
Ohm
7th November 2024, 1:58
Exactly what I thought as well – teams pre-empting a free stop so stay out on inters making the situation more risky.
I’d say let them work on the car, but if they do, they go to the back of the queue. 2 compound rule can stay in this case. So say if 1st and 10th car gets worked on, they restart 19th and 20th respectively and the rest move up. Another alternative that may be less severe is applying a time penalty say 20-30s. They get to keep track position but have that time penalty to serve.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:39
@palindnilap If drivers were forbidden from changing tyres under red, they would still be incentivised to stay on the wrong tyres – unless they expected a compound change to be needed at the restart. Since wet tyres are almost invariably the wrong tyre for a restart, there’d be incentive for drivers already on wet tyres to come off wet tyres back onto inters (or even soft dry tyres, if the track is drying fast enough) just before the point where a driver thought someone else would crash. That doesn’t seem particularly safe.
George.be
6th November 2024, 8:28
Swapping positions, or forcing people to pit after the end of a neutralization, with all cars bunched up is also not a “fair” solution, because that would mean that unsafe cars are restarting, or cars end up far outside of where they should have been had there not been a neutralization. This would also be unfair in some changing conditions: What if it starts raining heavily again during the neutralization, and one car is still on wets while other cars have just swapped to slicks?
One could argue to add time post race, without swapping positions to those who change tires under red, comparable to a 5-10-15s time penalty. In this case, had there been a rule where those that changed tires during the stop get a 10-20s time added to the race, it would have meant the Alpines would not have been 2 & 3, except when they were fast enough to reopen a gap to those that did stop before the neutralization.
And what to do with SC or VSC? Is pitting under SC or VSC not the same benefit for those that are just in the right place on the right moment?
slowmo (@slowmo)
6th November 2024, 10:25
Why should a driver who hasn’t pitted have an entitlement to recover an entire pitstop and be placed on strategy parity for the remainder of the race to their rivals. They could have pitted and chose not to, that’s tough luck to them. I’d rather the drivers who had earned their position in the race benefit than those speculating on a red flag because they have nothing to lose.
We already see teams acknowledge safety car and red flags in their strategy, they would just adapt and you’d not see people staying out on the wrong tyres hoping for a red flag if they made the change.
Arthur Egges
6th November 2024, 11:01
If you want to change the tyre-rule for red flags, then equally it should also be changed for VSC as that is also benefitting some and not all (depending on who is where on the track at the time of the VSC call). Why should a driver who pitted under VSC have an entitlement to get an (almost) free pitstop and be placed on strategy advantageous to the race of their rivals?
miciek (@micio)
6th November 2024, 11:18
Not true. When a race is redflagged, the cars stop. Virtually, the state of their tyres when the red flag condition starts is the same as when the race is restarted.
At the same time, (V)SC can go for multiple laps while the tyre state degrades.
dot_com (@dot_com)
6th November 2024, 13:57
They also get colder and therefore more ‘dangerous’ at the rolling start.
Ideals (@ideals)
6th November 2024, 8:34
I kinda hope they change the rule and then next time out after they changed the rule your fave gets immediately send to the back because he had to take a pitstop within five laps after the restart and everyone realizes nothing actually changed by fixing this “loophole”
Hannesch (@hannesch)
6th November 2024, 20:07
+1000!!!
Exactly, nothing changes. The unfairness is just shifted to somebody else.
KaIIe (@kaiie)
6th November 2024, 8:39
I would either simplify the rules and just get rid of the requirement to run two compounds during a race, or allow changing tyres under red flag only if they are damaged (like the normal tyre rules in 2005). Though, the latter brings up all kinds of variables like when is a tyre deemed damaged, as teams surely would argue that a small flatspot might be enough to warrant a change.
W-K (@w-k)
6th November 2024, 8:40
Why not change the rule so that, tyres and only be changed for the same type, hard for hard or soft for soft, under red flag conditions.
Biskit Boy (@sean-p-newmanlive-co-uk)
6th November 2024, 8:54
That’s will fix most of the problem albeit not in this case as Max just got a free stop for fresh inters and Lando did not.
In this case, they should have mandated a full wet tyre safety car restart. Problem solved.
slowmo (@slowmo)
6th November 2024, 10:21
I did think there is no fair way to mandate against the rule in a wet race and that regardless what they might do for the rules in future I think in wet conditions, you just have to let teams change tyres whenever there is a stoppage on safety grounds.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:22
I think that’s a good idea, it happened for example in japan 2022, they forced them to start on full wets but delayed the restart so much that the inter was immediately the better tyre and a lot of drivers went in to change immediately.
If the conditions, like maybe those laps, are a bit more extreme, drivers can stay on full wets a few more laps, much like canada this year, early on it was raining and full wets were faster than inters initially.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 14:28
@w-k Impossible if no same compound set is left anymore or only very used ones.
Biskit Boy (@sean-p-newmanlive-co-uk)
6th November 2024, 16:19
Not impossible!!! Put the very used ones on then, then change on the next green flag lap.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:41
@w-k Does not work if the conditions are heading for wet tyres, since drivers would be incentivised to stay on inters even if they are not sure they can actually get back to the pits on them. This is because wet tyres are rarely appropriate for restart conditions.
Señor Sjon
6th November 2024, 8:44
Since a couple of years, the VSC stop doesn’t count for the two compounds in F2. Last race, the VSC wasn’t even a full lap. The Tsunoda group had it while just clearing pit entry and it was rescinded before they were a lap further. SC’s will also wreck havoc among leaders who still had to stop. The red flag helps them. There are more SC’s than red flags, so in a way, the SC is more of a problem than the red flag rule.
Another red (and yellow) flag rule I miss is the Indycar one in Qualifying. F2 adopted part of it, but F1 still didn’t.
We’ve seen 5 red flags in Brazil qualy with at least two profiting from it.
Sainz caused red flag in Q1
Colapinto caused red flag in Q1
Stroll caused red flag in Q2, in the end he was promoted to Q3 where he couldn’t run.
Alonso caused red flag in Q3, no gain there.
Albon caused red flag in Q3, in a way protecting his position. In the end his car was too damaged to race.
We’ve seen this in Monaco as well. Schumacher was the only one getting penalized for it in 2006, while Rosberg got away with an even worse move in 2015-ish. Leclerc ‘saved’ pole position with a crash in Q3 in 2021 and Perez had a very dumb spin blocking the way in 2022, also safeguarding his position.
Jere (@jerejj)
6th November 2024, 14:29
Only Schumacher’s Rascasse move was actually deliberate, while all other mentioned ones were genuine errors, which never justify a sporting penalty.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:25
I’m not sure about rosberg though, there’s been some debate on that.
For perez, verstappen got angry at him for that, but I don’t really see why a driver would want to make sure to end up THIRD at monaco, as bad as ferraris are with strategy, it was unpredictable they’d mess up a 1-2 grid position.
Francesco (@schivo69)
6th November 2024, 8:50
What about making a rule for at least 1 compulsory pit stop per car, regardless of red/vsc? I think this would level the field a bit. In last race’s case ver/icon/gas should have stopped once before the end of the race.
Francesco (@schivo69)
6th November 2024, 8:52
It’s not a silver bullet, but close to an equaliser. Most likely Ver would have won anyway, but with a (almost) fair competition.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:26
Yes, true, he’d have HAD to extend the gap like he did towards the end to stay ahead and russell would’ve been 2nd, if I remember gaps correctly.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:28
Yes, seems leclerc and norris would’ve also jumped the alpines.
Carl Parker (@mysticarl)
6th November 2024, 9:00
It’s not easy to fix under all circumstances, but for what happened on Sunday it’d be easy. If the red flag is not for an accident with debris on the track, don’t allow free tyre changes.
Grapmg
6th November 2024, 9:06
The red flag was for an accident from Collapinto.
tielemst
6th November 2024, 9:14
I thought the red flag was for Colapinto’s crash? Before that everybody was asking for a red, but I think they only threw it once he had hit the barriers and there was all kinds of debris on the track.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:29
Yes, it was for colapinto’s crash, the reaction to the increased rain was SC, and I was thinking: ofc no one will crash under the SC, then I was proven wrong.
Nathaniel
6th November 2024, 9:04
I watch a lot of Australian touring cars and they will often have a rule for brake pad changes in endurance racing that reads “…not before lap 25 and not after lap 125”
Doing that for tyres would introduce situations where drivers have to pit for accident damage outside of those times but that stop wouldn’t count towards their compulsory tyre change
Señor Sjon
6th November 2024, 9:58
Tire changes before lap 6 and during VSC periods don’t count for the mandatory compound change in F2. The first rule could have prevented the Monaco fiasco with ease. At least 15% race distance run before compound swaps are counted or something like that.
Grapmg
6th November 2024, 9:04
But it’s F1 although we want it to be a fair competition we have to admit it’s actually not a real sport. There is even a completely unnecessary rule that allows cars to unlap. These rules with SC and red flag have been there for so long and always have been criticised but never changed. There was a period that after a restart they accumulated both session times for the end result but somehow that system was abandoned.
S
6th November 2024, 11:31
Thankfully it was removed because it was not only confusing, but also because the order on track did not represent the actual result.
Imagine every car in the race finishing with a different time penalty – because that’s exactly what it was like.
Grapmg
6th November 2024, 14:50
That is true it’s confusing. But this is why F1 is not a real sport but more entertainment. Can’t think of any other competition that has that kind of logic.
J3d89
6th November 2024, 9:08
And just like the fastest lap, here come the campaign against the red flag tire change… Cuz an English didn’t like it…
Christopher Rehn (@chrischrill)
6th November 2024, 11:53
We’ve been against it since it first happened in 2011 though. And with red flags far more common now than 10 years ago, it’s brought up more often.
Roger Ayles (@roger-ayles)
6th November 2024, 14:35
@chrischrill 2011 wasn’t the first time it had happened because the ability to change tires & repair damage under a red flag has been possible since day 1 of the world championship & swapping to fresh tires was always something everyone did under a red flag.
Christopher Rehn (@chrischrill)
6th November 2024, 20:17
It was the first time in the modern era it came under fire though.
PlosslF1 (@f1-ploss)
6th November 2024, 13:53
I take it you weren’t here for the ‘The red flag rule needs to change’ thousand’s of comments discussion after Silverstone 21 then? :)
SpaFrancorchamps (@spafrancorchamps)
6th November 2024, 9:14
No changes to the car allowed during a red flag situation.
However, if a team does make changes, it will result in a restart from pitlane.
Fixed it for you.
MichaelN
6th November 2024, 9:18
Exactly. It’s simple to change this.
MarcusAurelius (@marcusaurelius)
6th November 2024, 10:46
Hamilton Silverstone 2021 comes to mind. He had a broken wheel from the crash with Verstappen. He was allowed to change the wheel and took the 25 points.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:33
His car didn’t seem too bad when coming back to the pits, it certainly wasn’t serious damage, as it takes a long time to fix suspensions.
asz
6th November 2024, 10:06
Perhaps teams and drivers should not be prevented from taking risks that endanger no one else (spectators, marshals) aside from themselves and were taken consciously, in possession of all necessary information.
Safety is important, but the “saving you from yourself” attitude may be a bit infantilizing.
Tristan
6th November 2024, 11:37
This article is acting like a regulation can’t be changed because it hasn’t been changed.
It’s a ridiculous safety argument. If a driver picks up damage from an accident that causes a red, let them start from the pit lane. Theres nothing unsafe about starting from the pit lane. Misfortune of damage from debris is far more a part of racing and has been since it’s existstance. People getting free tyre changes because of a red flag on the other hand…
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:43
There is if it incentivises people to run with slow punctures!
Christopher Rehn (@chrischrill)
6th November 2024, 11:52
A surefire solution would be to mandate you switch to the same compound of tyres, no? Yes, in wet races like this one, Max would pick new inters and be fine, but any red flag in dry running would force you to pit later for a second compound.
Replace broken parts should be ok under red flag, and that can apply to a worn out front wing or a worn out tyre.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:46
@chrischrill Only if the race isn’t stopped under wet conditions (or likely to resume in dryer conditions than those prevailing at the time of the red flag), otherwise it incentivises staying on the wrong tyres even more.
Deerhunter
6th November 2024, 12:40
A dumb idea, but would it be possible to simply say that any driver that changed their tires during a red flag must serve a drive through or a 3 second stop and go during the race?
Yes, this could be easily gamed the way a 5 sec time penalty is, but it’s a start
immortan feijoa
6th November 2024, 23:11
I wondered this myself. I think a drive through would be reasonably fair, and the slight advantage this still allows might reduce the temptation to brave a restart with unsafely worn cold tyres.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:46
No, because the way it would be gamed would be for people to continue on unsafe tyres, causing more problems.
Dracae
6th November 2024, 13:28
What a load of nonsense.
This is NOT a loophole, it is how it has been since forever. For good reasons, after a red flag you will have a restart, so fixing things and new tires makes it safer .
The only reason there is rumbling is because Verstappen profited …by luck…which also is nonsense. Just check Peter Windsor’s video. He explains very well.
Losers always rumble, including RB and Verstappen, when its their time.
Edvaldo
6th November 2024, 14:34
There’s a long way between fixing things and changing tyres.
Or do you think their tyres were dangerous after the lap 1 crash in Monaco?
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:47
All but 2 drivers drove through debris to get back to the pits (albeit from an accident that wasn’t the cause of the red flag), so yes, some of those tyres would have been dangerous. We just don’t know whose.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:35
The rule is silly and it’s not just because of verstappen, as other person mentioned it happened at monaco too and it ruined the race, eliminating all strategic possibilities.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
6th November 2024, 17:36
Let’s make it clear: verstappen would be in a position where he’s basically guaranteed the title even if the red flag hadn’t come and he hadn’t won, the complaints are because the rule gives a huge advantage to someone.
Edvaldo
6th November 2024, 13:35
The red flag has become a strategic element already, as now everybody knows they won’t race with even the most moderate rain, so everybody will stay out with bad tyres waiting for the first one to crash and the race to be interrupted so they all can be gifted a free pit stop.
MichaelN
6th November 2024, 21:59
Indeed, which is why it was surprising that McLaren focused on Russell when they should have been focusing on Verstappen who is – ostensibly – their main rival. It was a classic case of Ferrari covering Webber while his team-mate Vettel runs off to win the title.
Fer no.65 (@fer-no65)
6th November 2024, 13:42
Red flags are uncommon, even at this time were they are at it’s peak usage. So, no, it’s not an issue to me. A badly timed SC is also “unfair” to some, but that’s how it is… in any case, all these situations are a result of accidents, weather, and basically every bit of unpredictability in racing. It’ll always shake results up.
Martin (@f1hornet)
6th November 2024, 15:24
I agree, and I enjoy the shake up. It would be just as unfair to force people to go to the back of the field for changing tyres during a red, thus favouring those who happened to luckily pit just before the red flag was waved.
Potentially, in dry conditions, I might change the rules to mandate a switch of compounds has to happen at a pit stop though. The two compounds things is artificial, so feels fair to also artificially force a pit stop for it.
Pete R (@prupp89)
6th November 2024, 14:05
The solution seems obvious to me:
A.) You can change tires under a red flag, but you have to start at the tail end of the grid or a grid penalty is applied when the race resumes
B.) You can only change like for like (mediums for mediums, etc.)
This way there’s still some strategy involved and drivers are allowed to change tires if there’s safety concerns after running over debris.
Roger Ayles (@roger-ayles)
6th November 2024, 14:47
I don’t see an issue with it because at the end of the day whatever you do your going to disadvantage somebody in a way that some will see as been unfair.
If you allow tire changes under a red flag your disadvantaging those who stopped.
But if you don’t your disadvantaging those who have yet to stop & arguably disadvantaging them far more as they would have to restart on worn tires which is a performance disadvantage on top of having to pit with the field more bunched up.
Additionally lets not forget the reason tire changes have always been allowed under a red flag. Red Flags are usually called for big accidents and drivers may have run through debris which could have damaged tires & that damage may not be immediately obvious. Do we really want to see tire failures caused due to not been able to change in those situations?
And in situations lie with Max & the Alpines at Interlagos it’s also a bit of a safety issue because worn inter’s are more prone to aquaplaning, especially once they have been allowed to cool. It is then neither fair nor safe to force them to restart on old inter’s when there more water on the track.
And also look at the fact we often see standing restarts now. Having cars restarting on potentially very old tires is just more likely to cause a big mess.
As to been able to repair damage. I also don’t have an issue with that because I like seeing cars able to stay in the race & remain competitive because that is surely better for fans who then get to see more cars on track able to race. I’d also like to see them go back to track workers been able to help get spun cars back in races if they are beached & just need a quick push like Hulkenberg did on Sunday. Seeing healthy cars forced to retire just because they happen to get stuck on an uneven bit of track is just silly and again takes cars out of the race which could be putting on a show for fans.
I just feel that changing it is going to result in a ton of negative unintended consequences and that people are going to end up whining about those just as much as they do with things as they are. It’s unfair on somebody either way & is going to have a big impact on races/championships in an unfair way regardless so I think it’s best to just leave things as they are.
Grapmg
6th November 2024, 15:07
Completely agree. I don’t think there is an easy fix. Most fair would be to go back to the situation before the red flag (no changes on the car) including the original gaps. But for safety reasons and entertainment we have the current system.
James Bond (@jamesbond)
6th November 2024, 15:38
Miami 2024 – Logan Sargeant crash – enabling Norris – who was leading, having not yet pitted – to make a pit stop and hold onto P1. FIA says NO Problem.
Sao Paulo – red flag – Max having not yet pitted- make pitstop and win the race. FIA says BIG Problem! Let’s change the rules…
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:49
@jamesbond The FIA didn’t say that, Liberty did. And Liberty has an obvious motive for wanting the title fight to drag on for as long as possible.
V. Chris (@vasschu)
6th November 2024, 16:04
As stated in the article, throwing red flag, SC or VSC during pit stop window, will always affect the race. Some people will benefit and some will suffer. This is actually nice random factor that is making the races more thrilling and allow people to gamble on different approaches.
I accept it as part of the game. This race it was game, not luck. Lando and McLaren can say that it was luck, but when you hear the team radios of Max, Alpin, even George, you see this is not luck, but educated, calculated gamble.
Actually it is really great that we can have such random factors from time to time, otherwise the races can become really predictable.
This time it was nothing artificial, so really don’t understand the criticism. Race officials let the race on track as long as possible, but crashing under safety car seems as clear red as it could be.
Jack
6th November 2024, 16:58
Red flag should mean no changes at all, if you any change anything – wing, tyres etc then you go to the back of the grid.
You can’t make the mandatory tyre change under a safety car / vsc – if you do then you still have to make another stop or have the time added on.
Why now though is the loophole gaining attention? Because Max and co best Lando…
FW11B (@fw11b)
6th November 2024, 17:09
I know rules, by their nature, have to be black and white, but I think this is one case in which the rules may vary depending on the situation. In Monaco this year, for example, there was no reason to allow the teams to switch tires after the red flag on lap 01 and this ruled out any chance of a real race. However, in São Paulo, where the red flag came at around the half-way mark and the conditions were torrid, allowing the tire change was a sensible and safe measure. I know it’s a controversial idea, but maybe trust the race director to allow or not to change tires depending on the circumstances…
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:49
@fw11b So in your opinion, most of the grid running through Sainz’s debris was not a valid reason for them to treat the tyres as potentially slow-punctured?
Robbie1
6th November 2024, 17:18
The problem is not the rule, the problem is to many red flags and the worst wet tires in F1 history and a car design that’s really bad for driving in the rain.
Gives us proper tires and cars with a higher ride height and we’ll see less red flags.
An Sionnach
6th November 2024, 18:35
So, Mansell famously lost out in the 1986 finale due to “bad luck” (not looking after his tyres). The kicker is that he should have been down by seven points at the beginning of the race. This is because his car broke down in the British GP, but he was allowed to use the spare car after the red flag. He duly won that race, but this was patently “unfair”, so a rule change is required. Any guesses as to how much of an outcry there was from the British media about that?
An Sionnach
6th November 2024, 18:58
Mansell took the championship lead at the British GP, but if the rules were fair Piquet would have won that race, with Prost second. This would mean that Mansell went into the finale in third place, behind leader Piquet and Prost. Prost would still win by two points, but over Piquet.
PeterG
6th November 2024, 23:51
Why was Mansell using a spare car unfair?
Been able to use the spare car if the race was stopped before the end of lap 1 was allowed back then and all the drivers who were part of the 1st lap accident also took the restart in the spare car.
An Sionnach
7th November 2024, 1:15
Yes, I know that. Please note the quotes around “unfair”. While I think the rules can always be changed to make them fairer as I’ve said above, the push for the rule change now seems a joke when the British media did not mind that the whole car could be changed on other occasions. I see a piece on another site about how the red flag robbed Yuki of victory. It’s straining too much to make it look like each article over the last three weeks isn’t about rule changes to benefit British drivers. They couldn’t care less about Yuki. It would make you want to tell them to get lost as nothing is good enough. Max is better and will most likely come out on top no matter how the rules are changed, unless it’s a simple no Max rule. The same was true of Schumacher. They needed the no Schumacher rule to dethrone him.
kinggp (@kinggp)
6th November 2024, 21:28
Perhaps a simple 10 second stop and go penalty for working on the car during a ref flag would discourage waiting for a red flag to change tyres?
If a driver must serve this within 3 laps of the restart, they are almost certain to drop to the back.
This would still allow damage to be repaired and tyres changed.
One thing that really irritates me during rain is drivers who haven’t pitted getting on the radio and begging for a red flag. In my opinion, it should be mandated that all cars stop for wets before the red flag could be considered for rain.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:51
@kinggp It would encourage waiting for a red flag to change tyres in cases like Sunday, because changing tyres before the flag would have meant restarting on an unwise choice of compound. At best.
BMW P85 V10
6th November 2024, 22:15
I think the LeMans approach is the best way to go about. Divide the circuit into mini sector of which can be adjusted to a low speed zone with a start and end line per sector. Gaps will remain the same and only a regular pit stop will give some profit in terms of time lost because of the increased lap time.
The first driver that hit the slow sector would be the first driver to be allowed to race the sector at full speed again.
PeterG
6th November 2024, 23:53
The Le Mans solution works at Le Mans because it’s such a long track.
When similar has been tried on shorter circuits it’s simply hasn’t worked which is why it’s something WEC only do at Le Mans and even then it’s something nobody really likes.
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:52
We might have to wait until the F1 drivers get better at mini-sectors before trying that one – the current world champion is apparently having trouble with the concept even as currently applied, let alone with that advanced technique. It would be presumptuous to say the others (apart from Alonso, who’s actually had to race this way) would fare any better.
Laskisoosi
6th November 2024, 23:49
I think they should just add to the rules “mandatory tyre change must be made within green flag conditions” this would still allow changing tyres under safety car, VSC or reds, but wouldn’t give anyone the advantage of not having to make their mandatory pit stop.
wsrgo (@wsrgo)
7th November 2024, 3:09
I think instituting some kind of grid penalty in the restart order, or even better, a time penalty to be applied to the running order pre-red flag, is the best way to go. You can have a gradation as well, a smaller penalty for just tyres, a larger penalty for front wings, and anything else you take the restart at the back of the field.
Gary Simmons (@gsimmonsonca)
7th November 2024, 15:40
The red flag loophole is what is keeping the drivers on the track on worn intermediates (or even slicks) as rain increases, hoping that someone else will crash and the race gets red flagged and they get a free tire change/pit stop.
Finding a way to fix this loophole will get the teams to move to the right tires faster, knowing there is not a chance for a freebie coming up…
GongTong (@gongtong)
7th November 2024, 19:30
I’m late adding my tuppence to a lengthy comments thread, so doubt anybody will read it or care.
“Often in the event of a race suspension, many cars may have driven through the scene of a serious crash and picked up debris or even tyre damage as a result”
Whilst it’s somewhat arbitrary, tyre damage from debris resulting from a crash in front of you, is a part of racing. Sometimes you win, and sometimes you lose. But it’s far less arbitrary than the red flag tyre change circumstances. And for me, far more palatable.
“allowing tyres to be changed under a red flag ensures that all participants who take the restart can effectively do so on an equal footing to each other.”
I don’t think they should come out on equal terms. Necessarily. For the reasons above. There’s time to pick up on tyre damage under red flags and teams should have the right to change them, both for safety and for performance/strategy reasons. But that change, regardless of the reasoning, should come with a trade-off.
I think the race should resume with all the non-changers on the grid and the rest in the pitlane, in the order they went in. Released at a set time after the rest of the field. This would be good for the show as well.
Jeffers
8th November 2024, 6:49
Why not allow the red flag tyre changes but any driver that does change tyres must server a drive through penalty within five laps after the restart?
Alianora La Canta (@alianora-la-canta)
8th November 2024, 20:54
I think the best proposal is to allow tyre changes but simply not count them as a compound change in circumstances where the compound change is relevant. It means there’s no incentive to run a tyre that shouldn’t be run, but strategy is retained in races where it makes sense to do so.
Palaboran
9th November 2024, 6:53
Simple, as suggested iin the article, have a compulsory tyre change during racing conditions, or better remove the regulation requiring the use of two compounds. It’s time to simplify F1 so that everyone can follow the race without expert interpretation of the over many regulations.
Ronny
10th November 2024, 3:31
Lewis Benefitted twice in the 2021 season didn’t he? But if Max gets lucky rules must immediately be changed. Because he isn’t British?