Mercedes ‘still weak’ in slow corners after latest upgrade

23 comments on “Mercedes ‘still weak’ in slow corners after latest upgrade”

1. 

   MichaelN
   7th November 2024, 0:13

   The COTD has it right; the rule was brought in with a decent idea (debris/conditions/etc.) but it’s turned into another angle for typical F1 gamesmanship. The F1 teams are not acting in good faith, so it’s time to take their toys (the free change) away. In wet weather races in particular, and as the Haas radio transcripts reveal, the teams will even do this when their own drivers are genuinely scared. It’s now a safety issue, and in their brazenness the teams have given the FIA all the reasons it’s ever needed to change things.
   1. 

      Illusive (@illusive)
      7th November 2024, 7:13

      What happens when the driver who did a long stint and is P1 has to suffer because of this rule.
      1. 

         S
         7th November 2024, 12:06

         That’s racing, as the old saying goes.
         Strategic choices have consequences.
      2. 

         rprp
         7th November 2024, 12:32

         Somebody is always going to suffer, because the pack is brought together.

         In the scenario you mention, if somebody is P1 purely because they did a long stint, then they’d have to pit anyway and lose track position. It disincentivises the approach of running as long as possible to hope for a red flag (or even have a team mate trigger one).

         If somebody is P1 and a few seconds ahead on merit, it will force them to think about a slightly earlier stop, instead of having the luxury of waiting to see what competitors behind do. That might spice up racing, if the drivers behind decide to go long after seeing P1 come in.

         If somebody is P1 and miles ahead, they have the luxury of coming in under green flag conditions and retaining the lead.

         I don’t see the problem here.
2. 

   Scotty (@rockonscotty)
   7th November 2024, 1:48

   So simple. Change tires under red flag is allowed. You have to serve a drive through penalty or add 30 seconds to the race time if you choose the fresh rubber.
   1. 

      notagrumpyfan
      7th November 2024, 7:43

      And next we have people complaining that due to the Red Flag the rain cell has moved on and the full wet drivers are on the wrong tyre.

      Whatever the proposed solution, there will always be some drivers who win and some who lose from a Red Flag or (V)SC situation.
   2. 

      Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
      8th November 2024, 9:25

      @rockonscotty Mostly agree, but instead of adding the time as a penalty, use it to set the grid positions for the restart. Add 30 seconds to your race time at the time the red flag was flown and work out your new position in the pack. That means you don’t get sent all the way to the back if you happened to be leading on older tyres when the red flag dropped, but you might lose some positions for the restart. Makes it less of a binary win/lose scenario just depending on the exact timing of the red flag, and you get a genuine race for on-track position after the restart without having to worry about who still has to serve a drive-through or have 30 seconds added to their time at the end of the race.
      1. 

         pcxmac (@pcxmac)
         9th November 2024, 18:44

         if a red flag is dropped after a safety car, freeze the racing order @ safety car invocation. The less stewards can influence the racing order the better. Qualifying should also be redone so that the amount of time left for all drivers is set individually, after their first warmup lap, following a red flag.
         1. 

            pcxmac (@pcxmac)
            9th November 2024, 18:45

            and drivers who cause a red flag are disqualified, unless weather or issue out of their control.
3. 

   Colin Spencer (@colin999)
   7th November 2024, 7:05

   I like the idea of a pit lane start for any changes not just tyres during a red flag break in a race. The cars that don’t change anything line up for a grid start.
   1. 

      Craig
      7th November 2024, 8:25

      Probably not grid starts (I hate the standing restarts) but possibly put them to the back of the current running order or, taking the gaps from when the red flag was thrown, add the average pitstop time and move them back down the order accordingly.
4. 

   Jere (@jerejj)
   7th November 2024, 7:13

   I’m surprised he drove RB8 rather than RB18 as the most recent eligible machinery, which is also a modern generation one.

   I disagree with COTD. Firstly, the safety aspect is only applicable to wet-weather conditions, if at all, & tyre changes during race suspensions should never lead to a sporting penalty, especially as defining whether someone truly needs change or other repairs is difficult, & leaves room for interpretation.
   Still requiring the minimum two-compound use if red-flagging happens on the opening lap would be the only acceptable tweak.
   1. 

      Jere (@jerejj)
      7th November 2024, 7:14

      I forgot to add that red-flaggings sometimes inevitably benefit & sometimes hamper, just like with SC & VSC timings, so zero justification for different treatment.
      1. 

         Red Andy (@red-andy)
         7th November 2024, 8:01

         I think the difference is that there is still a cost, albeit a reduced one, to pitting under VSC or SC, whereas a tyre change under red flags is completely free.
   2. 

      Craig
      7th November 2024, 8:27

      As far as I understand the pre-hybrid cars like the RB8 are easier to maintain and run for demo run purposes like this
5. 

   SteveP
   7th November 2024, 8:21

   Where is article nr 15 about how Lando got away with a start infringement?

   Here we go another day of you failing to read the FIA document – document #84 (for Norris, others have their own document number)
   He didn’t, 5,000 Euro fine (which is exactly 5,000 Euro more than Sainz was fined for Monza 2023)

   You know I am right

   We know you’re wrong, and you don’t read official documents that prove you’re wrong.
6. 

   notagrumpyfan
   7th November 2024, 8:48

   The ‘broken record’ complaining about the ‘skipping record player’.
7. 

   Asanator
   7th November 2024, 10:47

   I have said for years that the tyre change rule under red flag conditions can be solved in dry running simply by mandating that the change mist be to the same compound.

   This doesn’t really solve the wet weather problem though. Maybe one way to solve it is that race control can declare a FULL WET race (rather than wet race) and all drivers must stop for full wets within a lap or two.
   1. 

      Red Andy (@red-andy)
      7th November 2024, 18:07

      I’d be cautious about any rule change that limits team or driver freedom to strategise and innovate. If a team wants to strategically hang out on inters in the hope that conditions improve, then good luck to them, but if they subsequently crash then that’s on them.

      I’d rather an FIA directive that says, in black and white, that all driver complaints about the conditions will be ignored unless the driver has already put on full wet tyres.
      1. 

         George.be
         7th November 2024, 22:00

         I’d rather an FIA directive that says, in black and white, that all driver complaints about the conditions will be ignored unless the driver has already put on full wet tyres.

         That’s all OK, but the real problem is often visibility, not so much the aquaplaning. The new, dark tarmac at Brazil and the limited visibility made it difficult to see where the water pooled. The fact that the inters are so much faster than the full wets also doesn’t help, but that is unfixable, because making the inters slower might push the drivers to slicks sooner, which brings even bigger dangers.
         In my opinion, the most honest, but probably extremely boring solution is to resume the race with the delta’s from before the neutralization, be it VSC, SC or RedFlag. The time cost for a well executed stop is a known for every track, so that can be calculated, and cars could restart to offset the gained time. A driver pitting under VSC/SC stands to gain X seconds? Well after the pitstop he needs to wait X seconds before leaving his spot in the box. That has other problems, because how would they handle double stacking… In case of a red flag, calculate the order and delta times, and the car can launch/pass he start line when his delta to the leader has passed. Lapped cars need to start from the pitbox so they’re not bringing extra danger…
         Or we can deal with it like adults, and say tough luck, people, next time we might gain… and leave it as it is.
8. 

   Dusty
   7th November 2024, 12:42

   The changing tires under red flags issue is very simple to solve. Cars making repairs or changing tires are sent to the bacl of the queue. Multiple csrs sent to the back stay in order behind the last car not making “a pit stop”. If race control mandates a restart with a specific tire compound, like wet tires, all cars changing tires start behind cars that changed to this tire under green flag.
   This is very similar to what would happen in a Safety Car period,
9. 

   Jraws
   8th November 2024, 11:11

   Close the pit lane under VSC conditions. If a drivers tyres are so shot that they can’t make a few laps under delta times then they should have pitted anyway but they are unlikely to crash going at a slow pace. it might end his race if his tyres give out but again, he should have pitted before in that case and the teams need to take it on the chin and stop pushing safety limits to the maximum. If he really needs to pit then give a 10, 15 or 20 second penalty depending on the track. Stewards decide beforehand when they also make the track limits decisions so all teams are aware.

   Same under SC conditions but close the pit lane immediately to all, if the crash is on the main straight and redirects through the pit lane they still can’t pit (much better for safety) and then re-open the pits after a few laps. If you pit, a harsher time penalty should be applied (just add 5 seconds onto the track specific VSC penalty as the cars will be going slower under SC).

   I think this would be a really fair approach and would stop teams pushing tyres to the canvas which is dangerous for everyone. Under red flag conditions it is much more complex and I honestly haven’t got a clue hahaha!!
10. 

    pcxmac (@pcxmac)
    8th November 2024, 17:16

    if it sucks in the slow, its either drive or suspension. Or Pirelli. Take your pick.

    The thing is, Mercedes should already know whats up with their slow speed handling issues, i mean, all that telemetry, and they can’t figure it out ? If that really is the case, there are some highly over paid staff on that team, who don’t know what they are doing.

    Some people suck at systems thinking, typically these types revolve around board rooms, like getting paid lots of money and going home early. Conversely your more autistic, problem solving night owls who obsess over coefficients and minutia are more likely to get paid less, get recognized less, taken advantage of, and not succeed in highly politically charged environments.

    You breed what you sow. Personally, I don’t believe Mercedes are stupid, their parent company, can’t be that backwards. I think this is just posturing for when they have the next ‘thing’ for the cameras to glom on to. It’s all cyclical, and I am pretty sure Mercedes decided to sink their stock in favor of VES taking some wins, in order to usher in a new contender. Which is ultimately born of media prerogatives/priorities. Toto should be shown the door, and someone who actually cares about integrity and performance should take over.

    Or, F1 is hellishly corrupt, and it’s just a huge money pit full of vipers trying to get their share of the stupidity. We hope it’s not the later. But Mercedes is not inspiring a vote of confidence.

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