In the round-up: Max Verstappen indicates he intends to stay at Red Bull.
In brief
Staying at Red Bull would be “amazing” – Verstappen
Verstappen made his Formula 1 debut with Red Bull’s second team, Toro Rosso (now RB) in 2015. He joined their senior team the following year and after scoring his first championship win signed a long-term contract extension which will keep him there until 2028.
Now a four-times world champion, despite being courted by Mercedes this year, Verstappen says he is attracted to the idea of staying where he is. “My desire, and honestly this is how I saw it when I signed my new deal, is it will be an amazing story if basically I did my whole F1 career with one team,” he told the BBC. “I think that is pretty special, because I do value my time also at Toro Rosso, but I was already part of the whole Red Bull family.
“But again, ’26 for me is also a big question mark where it’s not only performance wise, but how is the car, is it fun to drive, is it going to be nice? Is it what I like to dedicate 24 weekends a year for and all the work of course next to it, that is something that is very difficult to judge at the moment. I also know that I want to do other stuff in life and I definitely don’t want to be racing in F1 until I’m 40 years old.”
McLaren anthem comment wasn’t serious – Lawson
Liam Lawson said he was not being serious when he complained in a recent interview about McLaren playing the British national anthem instead of that of its New Zealander founder Bruce McLaren. “McLaren’s based in the UK, but it’s a New Zealand team,” he said. “It’s completely bullshit.”Asked about his comments last week Lawson said: “This is stuff that I’m learning in Formula 1… stuff gets taken out of context.”
“It’s ironic, I was laughing when I mentioned this comment in a podcast, and it was more of a joke, but obviously it got taken very literally.”
F1 practice debut for Browning
Williams junior driver Luke Browning will drive for the team in the opening practice session for the Abu Dhabi Grand Prix next week. Browning moved up to Formula 2 in September after finishing third in Formula 3 behind Leonardo Fornaroli and Gabriele Mini.
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Formula 1's leading steward is sacked by FIA president Mohammed Ben Sulayem (Daily Mail)
'Tim Mayer, son of McLaren co-founder Teddy Mayer, and one of the most respected figures in the sport, has not been called up to officiate as chairman of the stewards since his last outing in Austin, Texas, last month.'
Andretti on F1 team's approval (Indy Star)
Mario Andretti: 'The ultimate objective was to get a true, all-American team going.'
Italy tax police search legal firms in Agnelli inheritance probe (Reuters)
'The investigation, opened earlier this year, alleges Elkann and his siblings Lapo and Ginevra did not pay taxes in Italy on assets they inherited after the death in 2019 of their grandmother Marella Caracciolo, the wife of late Fiat boss Gianni Agnelli.'
Tim Gerhards joins Sainteloc Racing for 2025 (Formula Regional by Alpine)
'Gerhards began his single-seater career in 2024, participating in the Formula Winter Series and the Spanish F4 Championship. His notable performances include a sixth-place finish at the Circuit de Barcelona-Catalunya, marking his best result of the season.'
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Comment of the day
Does General Motors’ strategy of entering Formula 1 with its Cadillac brand make sense?
I’m struggling to understand the branding as well. F1 is perhaps the only “global” motorsport, Cadillac is (as far as I know) a domestic US brand currently, and although the name has been used in sportscars recently it is not a “sporting” marque.
Meanwhile Ford (who I had completely forgot about going into partnership with Red Bull) are on the verge of dropping out of the European passenger car market completely.
These do feel like deals based on successful hype from Liberty rather than any real understanding of F1 as a tool to generate sales. Cadillac-Ferrari in particular will just end up at the back of the grid, I give them three years in the sport before GM withdraw (with no engine built).
David
Happy birthday!
No RaceFans birthdays today
Levente (@leventebandi)
28th November 2024, 0:30
Re CotD: These are long running deals, we don’t know how they connect to the long term plans of these brands. Easily possible that GM wants to get global again with Caddy (it’s only strong in the USA and Chine atm)
lynn-m
28th November 2024, 1:14
I’ve always found it a little amusing that Ford are held up as one of the most successful engine builders in F1 history despite the fact that Ford themselves have never actually built a successful F1 engine.
Both the DFV & the Zetec R that won championships were designed, developed & built by Cosworth yes with Ford backing and branding but they weren’t designed or built by anyone from Ford.
I don’t think that Ford themselves have ever actually built an F1 engine have they?
Same now as the red bull ford engines won’t be built by Ford.
Gerrit
28th November 2024, 1:51
Way way way back McLaren run one unsuccessfully, a sleeved Ford Indy engine.
“The team then focused on getting the Ford engine to work properly, and the M2B returned at Watkins Glen in October, where Bruce again ran well, lying fourth at half-distance before finishing a place lower. The engine was now showing some promise, and McLaren qualified sixth in Mexico, but the Ford overheated during the race, dropping him out of contention. McLaren would look for simpler options in 1967.”
https://www.oldracingcars.com/mclaren/m2b/
anon
28th November 2024, 8:00
Gerrit, whilst McLaren did use a derivative of Ford’s IndyCar engine, Ford was not directly involved in that project. Bruce had hoped that using a Ford engine might attract sponsorship and support from Ford – not knowing that Ford had signed a deal with Cosworth by then – but the work to convert the engine from 4.2L to 3.0L was carried out by Traco Engineering.
Mind you, isn’t lynn-m’s argument complicated by the fact that Ford did subsequently buy Cosworth out entirely?
Short Circuit (@jjohn)
28th November 2024, 1:59
For F1 only?
Not sure. I was going to go with Gurney at Spa. Then I think Harry Westlake had a design there, so that probably puts a line through the Eagle Ford thing. But there were so many different Indy Eagles probably some in Indy real Ford’s but also turbo Offenhausers, Chevvies etc.
If I do recall Dan had basically an Indy car there at Spa that was way too heavy. Change to magnesium and titanium, weight problem solved. He ran out of time/money to continue F1 pursuit. Probably dodged a bullet with the magnesium thing.
Frank
28th November 2024, 6:13
I cannot confirm your boldest claims but I agree with the sentiment of your comment.
Ford in F1 should be mentioned together with Marlboro and the other major sponsors. They do not belong .together with Ferrari,, Mercedes, Renault, BMW, Honda etc.
Then again, is there really that much difference with Red Bull or Benetton?
grat
28th November 2024, 17:55
Mercedes? Mercedes hasn’t built an F1 engine since the 1950’s. Mercedes AMG High Performance Powertrains was previously known as Mercedes-Benz High Performance Engines and before that, Ilmor Engineering. They’re owned by Mercedes, but they are totally separate from the road cars, just like many other manufacturers.
BMW P85 V10
28th November 2024, 6:29
The engine will be built by Red Bull Power trains. Ford will be responsible for the electric portion of the drivetrain.
Optimaximal (@optimaximal)
28th November 2024, 10:27
The Mercedes engine department is actually Illmor and for ~6 years between 1997 and 2002, Renault engines were actually manufactured and run by Mechachrome and SuperTec.
anon
28th November 2024, 10:51
Whilst it started out as Ilmor, Mercedes has been a major shareholder since 1993 (when it bought 25% of the shares in the company), increased it it 55% to take a controlling share of the company in 2002 and, in 2005, bought the entire company and integrated it into Mercedes’s own operations. Given it’s now nearly two decades on from that, saying it is Ilmor is rather a stretch.
With regards to Mecachrome and Supertec, that is more complex. Mecachrome has had a long standing partnership with Renault Sport since the late 1970s, and they were already manufacturing engines for Renault back in 1983. They were a technical partner in the 1990s and helped manufacture and assemble the engines, and that role continues to the present day (although Renault has always taken the lead role in terms of designing the engines).
However, for the period that you refer to, Supertec and Mecachrome had purchased the design and intellectual property rights to those engines from Renault. They might have originally been Renault engines (although they were subsequently upgraded by those parties) , but Renault wasn’t involved in the sport in those years and those manufacturers weren’t representing Renault (they were operating in their own right as manufacturers).
montreal95 (@montreal95)
28th November 2024, 2:28
This is the most uninformed and just poor all round COTD here in a long while and that’s saying something.
First of all Cadillac is a local only brand? What?! And Ford maybe too? are you joking seriously? Yes they’re both not big in EUROPE at the moment but the world is much much bigger than that. F1 is a global sport not just European anymore so that’s a very anachronistic view. Couple that with the fact that F1 is rising rapidly in popularity in the US and you have all the reasons you need for them to want to get involved. So even if your misinformed opinion about Cadillac being local was true it wouldn’t even matter.
And GM are very serious with every racing project they do like Indycar and WEC so I predict that your prediction about them leaving in 3 years with no engine will age as well as milk and you’ll end up with egg on…
Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
28th November 2024, 3:43
COTD kind of lost me at
without even considering the FIA games had entries from 82? nations. And that doesn’t include Moto or Superbikes under FIM or Motorsport everywhere that is not accredited with FIA , FIM etc.
Then rounded it off nicel with
Meanwhile Ford (who I had completely forgot about going into partnership with Red Bull)
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 6:26
Indeed. I’ve found that recently RF seems to base who it picks as CoTD as who dovetails best with something RF has recently said rather than anything actually insightful let alone an interesting opposing opinion. “You agreed with what I said? What a great comment!”
EffWunFan (@cairnsfella)
28th November 2024, 7:26
@davedai
I don’t know. One of my own a month or two back made perfect sense when I wrote it, but much much less so when I saw it as COTD.
Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
28th November 2024, 9:16
@cairnsfella I think that was Montreal not me.
But I even got a cord for guessing Oscar had a stress fracture. So anything’s possible the wheel’s still in spin as Mr Zimmerman wrote.
Hooroo
anon
28th November 2024, 8:50
@montreal95 it’s not just that Cadillac were not big in Europe – until earlier this year, it was not even possible to purchase a Cadillac in Europe given General Motors withdrew from the European market in 2017. Even before 2017, General Motors generally didn’t sell Cadillac’s in Europe – they mostly sold cars from other manufacturers instead (Opel, Vauxhall and Saab are probably the best known examples).
As to the wider question of how “global” Cadillac may be – that does depend on how you define a “global” brand. Cadillac officially sells their cars in around 30 countries, but in most of their international markets, Cadillac is an extremely niche brand – for example, even if you were to combine the European, Japanese and Middle Eastern markets, Cadillac’s forecasted combined sales across those three markets for the next few years is around 3,000 cars per annum.
In practice, therefore, there are only two markets where Cadillac does actually have a significant presence, and those are the North American and Chinese markets. It’s not quite a “local” brand, in that they do have a significant presence in China, but it is fair to say that Cadillac is a pretty obscure brand outside of those two markets.
As an aside, whilst you say “GM are very serious with every racing project they do like Indycar and WEC”, it should be pointed out that the IndyCar engines are actually designed and built by Ilmor Engineering, not GM.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 10:39
How GM runs its motorsports programs is the norm. Even Mercedes’ F1 effort is not in-house. In fact, they only own 30% of the operation, including the Brixworth PU program.
However, I agree with everything else you said.
anon
28th November 2024, 10:59
You’re about two decades out with that claim about their power unit division – Mercedes purchased a controlling stake in 2002 and bought the company entirely in 2005 (it’s a matter of public record, given they had to register the change in ownership and the sale of those shares to Mercedes with Companies House).
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 15:25
According to The Race and Google, both the team and Brixworth are owned in equal thirds by Ineo, Mercedes and Wolff. But that was tertiary to my point anyway. Even if Merc owns 100%, Brixworth is a specialist operation that evolved from Ilmor and rebadged into an AMG operation, which itself was a third party operation that Merc didn’t take ownership of until 2005. Brixworth’s engineers did and do not come from the Mercedes factory. So, I guess the better question is what makes something in-house? I see no major difference between Mercedes and GM getting their engine from a specialist source even if one now owns their source.
Across WEC, IndyCar, etc. history, it’s been more common for manufacturers to have third party specialists running both the racing operations and
notagrumpyfan
28th November 2024, 14:17
I thought that Mercedes fully owned the PU company HPPT.
Interestingly, they bought their initial stake from GM!
An Sionnach
28th November 2024, 10:17
Globally, the US market is not insignificant. Business-wise more US companies should be welcomed. They will have to perform and whether they do or not remains to be seen. If any of us says that they are doomed to fail and appear to be correct, it may not be as simple as that, and more to do with the fact that it’s very hard for anyone to come in and get this right quickly enough that the costs don’t drag the project down. It’s expensive and difficult. Mercedes and Ferrari have the confidence, success and commitment to push doubts aside. There are no guarantees there, either, but they won’t be leaving F1 if at first they do not succeed.
fawkes
28th November 2024, 2:55
Staying at Red Bull and not having a proper fight with title material drivers will not help the case for Max as the GOAT. Is he afraid of losing his environment and being the prefered side of the garage?
Hamilton fought Alonso in his very first year. Then Button, another champ. Rosberg was also above the average, and so is Russell, which many people don’t rate high enough (but keep praising Norris…). Just saying.
Jonathan Parkin
28th November 2024, 5:50
I want to see if he can do a Niki Lauda and win a title without a front row start
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 7:28
Oh please. Alonso and Max are also easily cruising to 7+ titles in that Mercedes. Max has already had more fair title fights than Lewis. When did Lewis win titles not starting “from the front row”? Lewis is undoubtedly one of the greats, but he hasn’t done anything Max hasn’t.
F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
28th November 2024, 8:43
Lewis lost 4 championship fight in 2007, 2010, 2016 and 2021
Lewis had a championship contending car for 11 of his 17 seasons in F1, in all but 1 other seasons he had cars that realistically could contend for a win.
Pretty crazy that everyone is complaining about Red Bull domination which last like 2 seasons while Mercedes dominated for 7 years without really being challenged even in 2017/2018 Mercedes was the fastest car most of the races.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 10:42
I’d include 2010-12 if you didn’t. He had a more competitive package than the Ferrari. What showed Lewis’ eliteness was his ceiling in great cars. Max and Lewis were always finishing astonishingly far ahead of their teammates. Usually 30+ seconds.
Hotbottoms (@hotbottoms)
28th November 2024, 15:05
@f1statsfan
You count it as a “championship fight” if a driver gathers enough points to be within striking distance of winning the championship. The thing is, they might only be in the championship fight in the first place because of their exceptional performance. Lower-level drivers are less likely to be part of a “championship fight,” even if their car is capable of it.
If you think about it, when a driver has a long and very successful career, they are bound to have seasons where they come close to winning a championship but ultimately fail. I mean, it’s not very likely that a driver will either have a completely uncompetitive car or a championship-winning car every season. It’s more likely that in some seasons they’ll have a car capable of almost winning the championship, but not quite.
Furthermore, no driver performs flawlessly in every race of the season. When a driver loses the championship by just a few points, it’s always possible to point to a few races where they could have scored more points to secure the title.
To break down those seasons one by one:
– 2007: Sure, he could’ve won the championship. But it was his rookie season, and his teammate (Alonso) was a two-time world champion from the two previous seasons. Finishing the season ahead of Alonso was hardly a failure.
– 2010: Once again, he beat a teammate who was a reigning world champion (Button). Sure, he had a theoretical chance of winning the championship in the final race, but that was probably only because of his great performance in the first place.
– 2016: This is the best example of a season Hamilton should’ve won. Even though I think most people would agree that Hamilton drove better than Rosberg that season, Hamilton probably should have performed a bit better early in the season.
– 2021: Both Verstappen and Hamilton greatly outperformed their teammates. Without Verstappen at Red Bull or Hamilton at Mercedes, there probably wouldn’t have been a proper championship fight in the first place.
Craig
28th November 2024, 9:50
Fair title fights? When were these?
N
28th November 2024, 11:02
“Lewis is undoubtedly one of the greats, but he hasn’t done anything Max hasn’t.”
Lewis has had world champion team mates, Lewis has won titles across different engine/regulation change, Lewis has won titles against a tough teammate while having the team remain completely impartial.
Max has yet done nothing of the sort. So far, he’s won 4 titles when he’s had the outright best car, with a team completely behind his side of the garage, he has only replicated what Vettel done.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 12:33
I don’t liked Max, but I can still accept what he’s proven. And proven beyond doubt. Seems like you haven’t reached acceptance.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 15:28
like*
N
28th November 2024, 16:25
I rate Verstappen’s ability very highly, i’m just not putting him on Hamilton level yet, as i said Hamilton has done so much, in so many different scenario’s. To start his F1 career up against a peak Fernando Alonso on the back of his 2nd world title, in his first season, is still one of the most insane things i’ve witnessed. Verstappen hasn’t yet fought anyone close to that level in his own team, with the team even being monitored to ensure fair treatment. Hamilton then switched teams, out of his comfort zone, into a team Rosberg was already settled, and beat him, all while having the huge engine and aero regulation changes to go with it. He fought Rosberg, again in a team bending over backwards to ensure equal opportunity.
When Vettel won his 3rd and 4th titles, there was so much talk about him going on to smash all records, but it came to a halt when he no longer had a dominant car, a tougher teammate, then into a team that no longer gave him the absolute preferential treatment he got against Webber.
There are many more things i want to see from Verstappen before mentioning his name alongside Hamilton.
Robbie1
28th November 2024, 17:40
@n
Last I checked Max beat the most successful driver in F1 history in lesser material.
And he (probably) will win a title in the third fastest car.
And all his titles are won in the closest field in F1 history.
Far more impressing than winning six titles in a miles ahead Mercedes.
Btw, one of those teammates Lewis lost a title to was exposed by Max as an average nothing special driver.
N
28th November 2024, 18:29
“Last I checked Max beat the most successful driver in F1 history in lesser material.”
Then you need to check your sources, because the people who designed and built the Redbull car, said it was the better car on average over the course of the season. So it was Hamilton who won in the ‘lesser material’ (Minus the race-rigging in Abu Dhabi). I’d love to know how you know more than Adrian Newey, i’ll be waiting.
RBA
28th November 2024, 22:34
Opinions of none matter in front of data. Merc had the better quali and race car in 2021 per data, Verstappen had terrible luck objectively costing him about 3 race worth points and still won the title. This is the reality you need to admit but your immaturity won’t allow you to admit it. Maybe you’ll grow up one day, like many others.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 9:42
Yeah and Mercedes claimed they had made the fastest car that season too. Are you going to forever cling to arguing that Newey once hyping his own design proves Lewis not only lacked an equipment edge, but was actually fighting with inferior equipment? Those are some fragile straws to clutch at.
N
29th November 2024, 14:39
@RBA – nice cherry picking, deluded.
@SPArtacus – I’ve not once seen Shovelin and Co claim their car was better. Newey said ‘on balance over the season, our car was probably marginally quicker’. That’s about as modest and level headed as you can get, nothing about that is ‘hype’. I see what you’re trying to do.
Even if i threw you a bone and said Hamilton had marginally the quicker car in 2021, that still doesn’t mean Verstappen won in inferior equipment, because Verstappen didn’t win the title. In Abu Dhabi, Hamilton out qualified and out raced Verstappen, was 11 seconds up the road with a few laps left, and then the race got rigged. If you wanna take that as Verstappen beating Hamilton, sure, delude yourself into believing that was real. We all witnessed what happened that day.
Craig
28th November 2024, 9:48
Technically speaking he’s “failed” this “goal” of having his entire career in one team as, despite being under the same umbrella, Toro Rosso and Red Bull were separate teams.
PeteB (@peteb)
28th November 2024, 12:39
I think you’d struggle to find anyone less bothered about whether fans call him the GOAT or not to be honest…
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 9:44
Oh please. Max cares. They all care. Why do you think he freaked out when he missed out on becoming the youngest pole sitter when Ricciardo nabbed the pole in Mexico City? He wants to be the record holder for everything just like they all do.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th November 2024, 15:01
Well, Verstappen wants a competitive teammate – rolling on the floor.
Like I said, look at Gasly outqualifying Verstappen in the Alpine :-) I have no doubt Perez would be posting similar results as Gasly, if not better, if allowed to drive a proper car. It’s also ironic that the Alpine would be considered a proper F1 car compared to Perez’s maimed Red Bull.
Whoever goes to Red Bull will not get a F1 car, period.
Robbie1
28th November 2024, 17:44
@whinyfreebirds
I love your tears.
But most of all I love the fact that after years of lies you still haven’t convinced yourself.
Please keep them coming.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 9:51
Not only Max. No driver ever wanted or wants a competitive teammate. Not Lewis. Not Fernando. Not Seb. Not Michael. Not Mansell. Not Prost. Not Senna. Why do you think Lewis and Seb both lobbied to keep their Finnish butlers? The fact you claim Gasly, of all drivers, could beat Max in the same car is evidence you cannot approach this topic objectively.
pcxmac (@pcxmac)
28th November 2024, 20:49
he needs to win more than prove anything to himself.
Stephen Crowsen (@drycrust)
28th November 2024, 4:02
The best musicians have the best instruments, but even without the best instruments they are still the best musicians. I think it was in 2013 when God said to me that Max would be the greatest F1 driver ever. Max was with Jos Verstappen and another man, and they were boarding the bus I was driving. So regardless of which team he drives for he will produce good results, but greatness? I think he needs to drive in a car where his unique ability can be seen. Currently it seems Red Bull are the team with the car which enables him to achieve this, but after the power unit rules change in 2026 or if Red Bull start to fade as a team then maybe it would be better to change.
Jere (@jerejj)
28th November 2024, 5:33
@drycrust What a coincidence back in 2013 that they happened to board the same bus as you, & before he was widely known yet, & therefore, could move freely in public without getting easily recognized by more or less everyone.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 7:50
Take it down a notch, Crow.
Moshambles (@moshambles)
28th November 2024, 9:06
“I think it was in 2013 when God said to me that Max would be the greatest F1 driver ever”
Did you mean to type “God”?
anon
28th November 2024, 11:15
@moshambles that poster did intend to say that – they have previously talked about their religious conviction that it was a “blessing from God” to meet Max and they literally worship him as a semi-divine figure appointed by God to be the perfect race driver.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 12:35
That’s not at all disturbing. I think Max’s security team should be alerted. I also wonder if he genuflects while watching Max streams his Minecraft gameplay.
Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
28th November 2024, 9:25
Didn’t notice Robert Johnson or Elmore James standing at the crossroads did you?
ferrox glideh (@ferrox-glideh)
28th November 2024, 14:06
That wasn’t God talking to you.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 9:54
@ferrox-glideh Which do you wager is most likely: paramedics, mom or celebrity text bot?
Dominique (@tryneplague)
28th November 2024, 14:42
I heard Max made a deal with the Devil…
Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
30th November 2024, 1:01
@tryneplague well picked up or original thought too
Crawliin-from-the-wreckage- Special Unhinged Edition (@davedai)
28th November 2024, 4:15
Well things do change.
Renault disentangling themselves from Nissan is just another step to bye bye to an actual F1 engine manufacturer and hello to even more power for some.
Jere (@jerejj)
28th November 2024, 5:41
Of course, Lawson never meant his anthem claim fully seriously, in hindsight, I should’ve seen through the sarcasm at the time.
Yet another FIA-sacking for this year, I wonder who’ll be the next target.
I found out via the tweet that the CT05 has a Formula Renault engine rather than its original Renault V6 turbo hybrid PU, which I can ultimately understand as naturally aspirated engines are a lot easier & simpler to operate than hybrid powertrains, so a better option for third-party owners.
bernasaurus (@bernasaurus)
28th November 2024, 9:06
He has a YouTube channel thats worth checking out. He is ‘just’ a hobbyist with a shed. I think initially he managed to build a BAR rolling chassis, sold that and started this Caterham project after buying as many bits as he could afford from the Caterham bankruptcy auction, the rest he has had to source or make.
It’s certainly not 100% authentic, but that he has managed to get it to work, and considering where lots of F1 / exotic cars that aren’t MP4/4’s end up, that Kobayashi & Ericsson’s jumble sale of bits gets so much love and attention is quite fun to watch.
Tristan
28th November 2024, 7:21
I remember Hamilton saying a similar thing when he was getting more interested in music. I wonder if Verstappen will follow through or the allure of more championships will be too strong.
It must be so hard to decide to quit F1 voluntarily.
EffWunFan (@cairnsfella)
28th November 2024, 7:36
He can still keep his word and race another 12 or so seasons.
If he doesn’t splurge too much he should be worth around a billion by then.
Ludewig
28th November 2024, 12:14
I think that the pressure and demands are so high that drivers often cannot imagine doing it for decades, but it is doable and the benefits are so great, that each time they have a choice to quit, they go: ‘just a few more seasons’. And then all these decisions add up to them staying for decades.
So I take these vague claims that they won’t stay in F1 for a long time with a bucket of salt. I would argue that Max gets even more from F1 than Lewis, since racing is basically his entire life. So he won’t quit racing and then why would he switch to a lesser racing series, unless he suffers from age-related decline, which is a long way in the future?
PeteB (@peteb)
28th November 2024, 12:41
I can see him doing an Alonso – leaving F1 to do other things, realising those things aren’t as exciting as F1 and coming back to F1.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 9:57
That seems like the likeliest scenario to me. Also, taking a breather from something can really recharge your batteries / desire too.
notagrumpyfan
28th November 2024, 8:12
Oops, now all know that Torro Rosso and Red Bull Racing are one team. If only this site had an edit button. ;)
MichaelN
28th November 2024, 8:53
Who knew, right? Frozen engines, four cars; must be nice.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 10:45
Crazy how uncompetitive RB was with an identical car, right?
MichaelN
28th November 2024, 17:20
The third and fourth Red Bull cars have average to weak drivers who’ve been outshone by their previous teammates and thus shouldn’t be assumed to be getting everything from the car. Despite that, Tsunoda has an average qualifying result of 11th compared to Pérez’ 9th. And that includes a bunch of front row starts from the start of the season for Pérez.
It’d be interesting to see what a solid pair of drivers could do with those cars. Folks who didn’t watch 1995 probably figured the 1996 Benetton was a poor car. It’s creator Ross Brawn disagreed, saying it was just as good if not better than its predecessor. The difference? It was driven by Alesi and Berger instead of Michael Schumacher.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
29th November 2024, 0:29
There’s obviously a big difference in performance between schumacher and alesi\berger, however I have a hard time considering the benetton 1996 just as good: perhaps it improved the lap times but got worse relative to the field, as in the williams made a bigger jump than benetton.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 10:05
I can’t believe you really think the RB is, at very best, about the level of a Haas. I don’t disagree that there have been title worthy cars that have amounted to nothing because of the drivers (Kimi and Grosjean at Lotus were a more entertaining example of this phenomenon), but you typically see this played out with high peaks mirrored too often with troughs and silly + frequent errors, which show the car’s true potential. I nor you believe for a second that every season RBR won a title the Fienza team was capable of similar results if not for their drivers.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th November 2024, 15:27
Imho, Verstappen is a coward. Look at Gasly and Albon who were his previous teammates. If it weren’t the team, they would no longer be racing. Gasly is now in his 5th season post-RB, and Albon in his 3rd season port RB with no end in sight.
Perez is in his 15th season in F1 and has scored the most podiums and GP wins of any driver in midfield cars.
Tsunoda can’t get upgraded because he’s a bit of a question mark and maybe Red Bull cannot sabotage him without potentially offending other ex-partners.
Verstappen is no doubt quick but probably the worst driver under stress and pressure. He could never handle a season with pressure from a teammate.
That’s why he doesn’t want Sainz, Alonso, Norris, Leclerc or anyone that could keep up or beat him as the pressure gets to him. He seems to definitely operate better when he drives by himself and Marko and Horner know that better than anyone else.
SPArtacus
28th November 2024, 15:34
Well, a coward might be over egging it. But we can definitely say his bark is bigger than his bite when it comes to his pronouncements about “not caring who his teammate is” as he clearly does and has. However, most of the greats have strove to maintain a non-competitive teammate. Hamilton made it clear he wanted to keep Bottas as a teammate. Does that make him “a coward?” Vettel ran off when he got a competitive teammate, lobbied to keep Raikkonen and then sulked when Leclerc immediately started beating him. Schumacher had his butlers. And so on.
Michael (@freelittlebirds)
28th November 2024, 16:35
Hamilton is heading to Ferrari to team up with Leclerc after teaming up with Russell. That takes ginormous spherical objects. Alonso is begging to join Verstappen even knowing how bad his own car will be.
Hamilton is still around and Kovalainen, Button, and Rosberg have all retired. Bottas is headed that way too.
On the other hand, the drivers that Verstappen beat are all thriving and Perez is practically guaranteed to win a race for the next team he driver for.
Look at what happened when Perez was competitive – the Verstappens had a fit.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
29th November 2024, 0:19
There’s absolutely no need for red bull to sabotage alonso: he’s too old to compete with verstappen, and I think alonso is a really good driver, but age catches up with everyone.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 10:27
While I agree sabotage would be unnecessary as, while he’d be nipping at his heels, I can’t see Max losing to FA at 43yo), when Max made it clear he didn’t want Alonso in the other car, Red Bull slammed the door in his face. Marko had been singing Alonso’s praises for all of 2023, saying things like “he’s the only one who could compete with Max” and other ego polishing compliment. Clearly, Marko fancied him. Horner was much more circumspect, but whatever his feelings, a week after Max was quoted saying “it wouldn’t make sense to sign a driver of Alonso’s [age]” talks were over and he resigned with AM.
It doesn’t get much clear than that. Max doesn’t even want to risk an unpleasant surprise and RBR aren’t going to risk giving Max a reason to leave.
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 10:15
Yes. They are or would have done that to get a better car, but if they were already in that car, they would not a challenging teammate if it were up to them let alone encourage it. I like Alonso. I have never liked Max. If I believed Alonso (or LH)’welcomed stiff competition any more than Max, I would be happy to use it against Max (you’ll find many posts of me debunking people who claim Max “doesn’t care who his teammate is).
If you, personally, were top dog at a team, dripping in chicks, golden eggs and the admiration of countless roosters, would you really be tempting fate by inviting a new fox into the chicken coop that might snatch away the chickens, eggs, etc. and maybe even evict you to boot?
SPArtacus
29th November 2024, 10:28
would not want a challenging teammate*
Seppo (@helava)
28th November 2024, 19:51
Hard to maintain the illusion that RB/RBR aren’t one team when your driver, who’s seen all the internal mechanics of how the teams operate, says it out loud.
FOM’s gotta really put a stop to this. Having RBR drivers race two fewer drivers on the grid than anyone else is genuinely not reasonable. And before anyone says anything about “But the teams can’t communicate about that sort of thing,” blah blah blah – when Marko complains vocally about Lawson fighting Perez or any other time an RB driver has even been in Verstappens way for a moment, it’s clear that the drivers’ behavior is heavily incentivized by their future opportunity, which is controlled by Marko/RB, and there’s simply no way to decouple those things as things currently stand.
RB/RBR *has* to split. I’m not saying that RB’s championships are invalid because of it – I’ve been around the entire time, and they’ve obviously earned them (most of them, at least) – but there is *no* argument that this is a fair arrangement, and it’s comical that FOM allows it to continue.
Esploratore (@esploratore1)
29th November 2024, 0:25
Yes, something should be done, I just don’t know what, forcing to sell a team is very odd, I’ve not seen that before in f1. Even banning team orders wouldn’t solve the situation, cause first of all it’d also impact situations where a team like ferrari is on 2 different strategies with the one with older tyres ahead, and like you hinted, red bull don’t need to order anything to toro rosso drivers; they can simply have a permanent agreement that if you see a red bull behind you and fight it you won’t get promoted to red bull, without mentioning it via radio.