“Are the others struggling?” How Hamilton fell half a minute behind Leclerc in Jeddah

51 comments on ““Are the others struggling?” How Hamilton fell half a minute behind Leclerc in Jeddah”

1. 

   Tony Mansell (@tonymansell)
   25th April 2025, 8:29

   It’s painful to see but it’s the oldest story ever told in F1 and in an era when f1 drivers don’t retire at anything like their peak, told ever more often but it’s still painful to see the decline of the defining driver of his era. Whatever the reasons for this and we are reminded of them every day by fans who don’t like him, he was the defining driver and he is now in a decline to mediocrity. They will be delighted I guess.
   1. 

      Kata
      25th April 2025, 10:13

      Peak or not, if you look at the timeline when Lewis began to struggle it suggests that his problem began with the new regs (groundeffect cars).

      I remember him saying that the people at MB wouldn’t listen to his remarks about the car. But at this moment i’m beginning to think that maybe they heard what he was saying but knew that the things he wanted wasn’t going make the car faster.
      1. 

         Tony Mansell (@tonymansell)
         25th April 2025, 10:20

         100% its the regs. They dont like his sort of loose end driving style but if he was 24 he’d maybe be able to deprogram. Alas at 40 that is unlikely
         1. 

            Keith Campbell (@keithedin)
            25th April 2025, 12:56

            @tonymansell He finished 3rd in the standings in 2023 with 59 points more than Russel. I think his decline is more recent, whatever the reasons behind it are. Perhaps it is a combination of factors of anything from age, to confidence, to motivation, to car characteristics, and now new team, etc. Also, it has to be said that he has had very strong teammates who should be in their racing prime, so any underperformance is going to be shown up more obviously.
         2. 

            An Sionnach
            25th April 2025, 13:59

            Lauda didn’t like the earlier generation of ground effect cars and found them uncomfortable. Says so in his book. Lewis should stick around and see what happens next year. The problem then might be the Ferrari engine. Might be better off in any car with a Mercedes engine. If they are the only ones to get it right, they should not be held back for being successful.
            1. 

               An Sionnach
               25th April 2025, 14:06

               I should caveat what I’ve said as I’ve assumed that Mercedes has succeeded to do the seemingly impossible with their engine. Maybe they haven’t done it either and Toto is playing poker to get Max to sign? If he can get Max then he can agree to engine changes later. I’m not sure that’s a good strategy, though, as it would annoy Max if he feels he was conned.
      2. 

         Esploratore (@esploratore1)
         25th April 2025, 17:18

         Sounds like the problem ricciardo had too, he was way too young for the decline, but his drop in form coincided with the new regs.
         1. 

            El Pollo Loco
            26th April 2025, 5:04

            IMO, it’s pretty clear Lewis’ struggles are due to the same reason as DR. He’s not old enough for age to be the primary factor. It’s a factor, but probably only 20% at most. It’s why, when the car is in its sweet spot, Lewis is still ridiculously fast. It’s just that he looks very ordinary when it’s not in that sweet spot.
         2. 

            MichaelN
            26th April 2025, 11:56

            Ricciardo was already in a rough spot in 2021, his brief resurgence at the end of summer notwithstanding. That he failed to match Norris in both specs of cars was a big reason why he was dumped, as it was clear to McLaren that he himself was a part of the problem.
            1. 

               El Pollo Loco
               26th April 2025, 21:18

               So, it’s your assertion Ricciardo went from one of F1’s best drivers to struggling due to age and not lack of adaptability?
      3. 

         Applebook
         25th April 2025, 18:42

         Don’t forget quality of teammates. He was nothing special in race trim against even Button and had his struggles with Rosberg. Critics of Rosberg will keep pointing out that Lewis retired from the lead in that Nico WDC year, but they conveniently forget that Nico moved over to let Lewis through at Monaco, where he ultimately won. Had Nico simply played moving chicane, Lewis doesn’t win that race and finishes behind Nico. Russell and especially Leclerc are two of the fastest drivers of the Z era. Lewis never had teammates this fast before. Dominating Bottas in a car that is over a second faster than the field isn’t as impressive in hindsight. I doubt that Lewis performs that well in the turbo hybrid era if his teammate were peak Russell.
         1. 

            El Pollo Loco
            26th April 2025, 4:58

            I disagree with any assessment of Lewis that argues he isn’t one of F1’s greats, but I think it’d be fair to say the bulk of his legitimacy comes from his rookie season because, let’s be honest, it was amazing he tied someone like Alonso in his rookie season. If he doesn’t have that season, many would question his legacy just as they do Seb’s (who I don’t rate anywhere near Lewis).
            1. 

               F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
               26th April 2025, 6:27

               Lewis belongs to the top 10 but not top 5 – similar to but ahead of Vettel.

               Hs F1 achievement stats are hugely inflated by having superior machinery for such a long time as well as always having driven for a top 3 team with the exception of weirdly very competitive 2024 where Mercedes finished 4th but had shortly the fastest car on the grid.

               Lewis had machinery to fight for the WDC a massive 11 seasons – he won 7 – some years he had very dominant cars but relatively did little with it – never got past 11 wins in a season.
               Often he had a rocky start to a season and once the title was secured he seemed to check out.

               Of the 361 races Lewis started – his team won 153 races = 42.4% (at end of 2021 this was 50.5%) far exceeding any of the other most frequent winners – Prost, Senna, Schumacher & Max are around 35%.

               At same time Lewis % of those wins is below 70% while most other top winners scored above 80% of their team wins.

               Next to have a good or the best car more than any other driver Lewis even for today standards has very few retirements, his retirement rate is just 8.86% – only 5 drivers have a below 10% retirement – interestingly the current 2 McLaren drivers are 2 of the others Robert Merhi & Max Chilton the other 2.

               Lewis had in his entire career only 32 retirements (18 at Mclaren and 14 with Mercedes) with the majority being the result of collisions. For comparison Max with far less races also has 32 retirements and the majority of his retirements are mechanical failures.

               Fully agree that Lewis rookie season was amazing but the term “Rookie” in 2007 meant something completely different than “Rookie” in 2025. Loads of testing – extra preparations – driven through the junior series so he was far more prepared and experienced than all of today’s rookies and most rookies in last 10 years.

               If Lewis hadn’t move to Mercedes when he did he now would have been a maybe 3-4 champion or like Alonso experienced never got another championship again after 2008.
            2. 

               David BR (@david-br)
               26th April 2025, 13:51

               @f1statsfan weird how the only successful – immensely successful – non-white driver in Formula 1 has been subject to this downgrading of his talent and achievements from the start of his career.
               Hamilton was clearly the outstanding driver of his generation, not down to ‘machinery’ but to his supreme handling of the car (like Verstappen, Senna or any other ‘great’ youu care to mention), most clearly evident in his performances on wet tracks when many car factors are neutralised and the driver’s talent comes to the fore.
               But if you get a kick out of flopping around in mud while others far beyond you in terms of talent achieve something with their lives, do continue.
            3. 

               El Pollo Loco
               26th April 2025, 21:16

               As you can see from my posts, DavidBR, I am not onboard with downgrading Lewis’ legacy. However, it’s silly to imply that detractors are motivated by race.
            4. 

               David BR (@david-br)
               26th April 2025, 23:31

               @El Pollo Loco
               Naturally, if you don’t think structural prejudice is a thing. This isn’t about one person commenting, It’s been going on since Hamilton started in Formula 1 – I know, I was there (and here) to see it. Just years and years of the same manifestations. And denials, justifications, apologies. You can already see them lining up to say that by all Hamilton’s success meant much less than all the evidence suggests. Patronise and apologise and enable all you want, that prejudice is loud and clear.
            5. 

               El Pollo Loco
               26th April 2025, 23:44

               I was there too. And who is patronizing?

               Structural racism exists. Yes. But do I think a significant percentage of those who think Hamilton’s detractors are racist? No. How do you explain the large groups of people who say the same things about Max, Seb, Alonso, etc.? Racism too?
            6. 

               El Pollo Loco
               26th April 2025, 23:45

               I was there too. And who is patronizing?

               Structural prejudice (silly the r word is banned) exists. Yes. But do I think a significant percentage of those who think Hamilton’s detractors are racist? No. How do you explain the large groups of people who say the same things about Max, Seb, Alonso, etc.? Racism too?
            7. 

               El Pollo Loco
               26th April 2025, 23:48

               I was there too. And who is patronizing?

               Structural prejudice exists. Yes. But do I think a significant percentage of those who think Hamilton’s detractors are prejudiced? No. How do you explain the large groups of people who say the same things about Max, Seb, Alonso, etc.? Prejudice’ism too?

               lol, makes this hard with the r word not being allowed
            8. 

               Ferdi
               29th April 2025, 12:23

               David BR response to f1statsfan is not ok imho, bringing in arguments that have nothing to do with what is being discussed (the non white remark is disgusting). It is blatantly clear that although Lewis is a top tier driver his actual results are largely flattered by the dominance streak of an entire regulatory period by Mercedes. There is no shame in it, the shame lies in the denial of those facts or the lack of gratitude from Lewis’ side. That says a lot about someone’s personality.
   2. 

      Konstantinos
      25th April 2025, 17:53

      Well said. It’s hard not to wish for a suprise comeback but it does look unlikely and would be the exception to the usual narrative.
   3. 

      JackL
      25th April 2025, 19:07

      Im not sure its a decline, as otherwise Silverstone, Spa, and Las Vegas last year wouldnt have happened. Or Shanghai this year. I think its all psychological. If you look at the driving traces, the differences are so minute (braking 20m earlier into the the high speed turns in Jeddah, or getting on the power fractionally later) that its clear the skill is there, and he’s qualifying in the top 10. Its hardly the destruction that Leclerc visited on Vettel. He spent 2022 with the spectre of AD21, and then 2023 was trying to fight again, and 2024 he checked out so the motivation wasnt there.

      This year with Ferrari, he’s obsessed with the deficit to Leclerc, rather than just trying to drive and get the most out of it. More than any other teammate (Sainz at Williams or Tsunoda at Red Bull) he’s asking about the deficit to his teammate, and I think its got him stuck in his own head. For the first half of the year, he’s going to have a deficit. So just focus on getting as high up as possible and feeling comfortable in the car and with the tools.
      1. 

         David BR (@david-br)
         26th April 2025, 14:08

         I agree it’s more psychological as the race-winning performances are still appearing. Also agree that he needs to ‘chill’ more about the deficit to Leclerc. I guess the only comparable situation of him arriving in a new team were McLaren (where he was already familiar with the car and engines) and Mercedes (ditto engines, also very familiar with racing against his team mate). Leclerc at Ferrari is a different proposition and he needs to focus on his own driving, garage and team communication for the rest of the season.
2. 

   El Pollo Loco
   25th April 2025, 10:34

   Lewis isn’t doing that badly. We’ve had five rounds with Jeddah being his worst weekend and it still wasn’t exactly the end of the world.
   1. 

      debaser91
      25th April 2025, 12:09

      He was 31 s behind his teammate in Jeddah. That’s 0.6 s per lap over 50 laps, which is not just bad, it’s catastrophic. Jeddah has always been kind of bogey track for him with the new regs, but the concerning thing is that with each week he is getting further and further away from Charles.
      1. 

         N
         25th April 2025, 16:03

         Leclerc spent his first stint in clean air, and as he said to Piastry in the post race cooldown room – clean air is king. Hamilton was in relative dirty air and battling. Leclerc then spent the entirety of his second stint pushing fully for the podium, Hamilton was again in battles before backing off a few seconds towards the end when he realised Antoneli was too far (there was also portions of that second stint where Hamilton was on the pace when hunting Antoneli down). The gap between them was still big, but not 31 seconds big, in reality probably more like 20+

         Then again, Leclerc finished 12 seconds behind Hamilton in a 20 lap sprint in China, in only his 2nd race weekend for Ferrari, where was all the finger pointing then?

         As Leclerc said, clean air is king.
         1. 

            debaser91
            25th April 2025, 17:15

            There’s really some post race rationalisation because until Russell pitted, Leclerc was close behind throughout.
      2. 

         El Pollo Loco
         25th April 2025, 21:45

         It was a poor weekend, but it wasn’t disastrous. There have been many times a driver finished a pit stop behind their teammate and it wasn’t declared the end of the world. Hell, Sainz has finished a stop behind Albon this year and no one declared him doomed.

         F1 fans are quick to make dramatic declarations over single qualifications let alone single races. He’s doing poorly by the expectations held of him. If he was, say, Alex Albon people would say he’s doing OK. Not great. Not terribly. Just OK with room for improvement. On the flip side of finishing well behind Leclerc, we must also look at a brief flash of brilliance and multiple races where he was close behind Leclerc. All told, this is far from terrible.
   2. 

      Dusty
      25th April 2025, 13:24

      worst weekend

      Worst weekend so far.
3. 

   Jimbob
   25th April 2025, 11:06

   Early days, and I don’t doubt him for a second. Charles has always been exceptional at street circuits if memory serves. The sprint win in China showed that when everything comes together, the results will be there. Long way to go and many twists and turns to come.
   1. 

      Roy Beedrill
      26th April 2025, 3:30

      The problem is, from a driver of his caliber it is expected to be able to either win when everything does not come together or to actually put everything together. When “everything comes together” by itself even Pastor can win.
4. 

   AlexS
   25th April 2025, 11:41

   The time lost surely cost Norris the chance to attack Hamilton’s team mate Charles Leclerc for third place.

   Not surely. Leclerc made his best lap in the penultimate lap of the race. That was only 0.4s slower than Norris best lap.
5. 

   Ferdi
   25th April 2025, 12:53

   Lewis is not always treated fairly given the assumptions and expectations that come with his nr of WDC titles. One has to look at how these came about however and count that in. What people expect from him its just not realistic.
6. 

   Colin
   25th April 2025, 13:51

   Its only going to get worse…
7. 

   Michael (@freelittlebirds)
   25th April 2025, 14:35

   We shall see – qualifying has become much more important the past 2 seasons and he’s been struggling for qualifying pace. Usually he’d find it in race pace but clearly Jeddah shows what happens when you lack both.

   It’s disheartening but part of the journey – if he manages it to change it around, it’ll make the result even better. The entire sport suffers when drivers like Hamilton and Alonso are not performing at their best.
   1. 

      NM
      25th April 2025, 14:54

      Is the sport suffering from it? i think the new kids are more than capable to replace the old generation.
   2. 

      Tony Mansell (@tonymansell)
      25th April 2025, 15:55

      Qually has been the most important aspect of F1 since about 1980 !
   3. 

      Ferdi
      29th April 2025, 12:30

      I am not sure I agree the sport is suffering from it. I feel the sport might be suffering more from them not leaving and giving the opportunity to new talent. They add very little and only diminish their earlier achievements by hanging around.
8. 

   Bob C
   25th April 2025, 16:19

   On the one hand, I really like these articles for the detailed look behind the curtain and fascinating peek into the complexities of modern race car technology

   On the other hand, I wish that the radio comms wouldn’t be published, so I could tell myself that the driver is actually the one driving the car. Reading this left me thinking “d*ng, just put the engineer in the car already. He’s doing all the drivning anyway“
9. 

   Le Jimster (@lejimster82)
   25th April 2025, 16:52

   Not Hamilton’s biggest fan but it’s too early to say whether he’s way past his best. It takes time to adjust to a new car and team. Only in China a few rounds back he won a sprint race so he’s not completely gone.

   It doesn’t matter the driver I think with how complicated these cars are no driver is jumping in and doing better job immediately than an extremely fast driver who has been there many years. I don’t know about anyone else but I always thought Leclerc was going to thrash Hamilton on Saturdays and it be a bit closer on race day. I think with more time in that car we should see Hamilton much closer to Leclerc, probably in the 2nd half of the season.
10. 

    David BR (@david-br)
    25th April 2025, 18:05

    In think there are plenty of mitigating factors: new car, new engine, new brakes, new team, new language, new country, it’s the Ferrari culture to learn (probably the most distinct of any), the lack of practice time, with Leclerc he’s against one of the fastest of the generation now at its peak who has been at the team for years. It’s only a few races (and even fewer months) into the season. He’s not that far off Leclerc and he’s actually been faster (and won a quali and sprint race).
    All vaiid. So perhaps he can learn and adapt – he’ll be given time. Against: age, maybe, principally in terms of absorbing so much new information and learning new skills and techniques. Confidence and pressure to deliver for Ferrari.
    I can see it going either way at this point. What Ferrari really need is for Hamilton to stay positive and chill a bit more maybe. He can still add a load to the team from his title-winning experience, even if it is more for Leclerc’s benefit. But perhaps the Ferrari culture is too strong and maybe there’s an unsurpassable incompatibility. We’ll know by the end of this season. If it’s bad, I can see him leaving.
    1. 

       Applebook
       25th April 2025, 18:44

       What were the mitigating factors from last year and even towards the end of 2023, when Russell wiped the floor with him on pure pace? Mercedes sabotage, of course.
       1. 

          N
          25th April 2025, 23:16

          2023? Where Russell wiped the floor with Hamilton??? You mean the season where they finished 11-11 in Qualifying with Hamilton the only none Redbull/Ferrari Pole position, with 4 race fastest laps to Russell’s 1, and finishing the season almost 60 points head of Russell? You mean that season?
       2. 

          David BR (@david-br)
          26th April 2025, 13:44

          Oh great, another new unregistered commenter with the exact same wearisome anti-Hamilton tirades. Mentally filed under ‘skip read.’
    2. 

       Ferdi
       27th April 2025, 11:11

       Lewis is a good driver, but needs his material to edge the rest of the field and isn’t very adjustable if a car doesn’t fit his style. So, if he happens to find himself in that sweet spot once again, he ‘only’ has his team mate to worry about. His past achievements are heavily flattered by the car he drove. What people expect from him without that, is just not realistic.
11. 

    F1statsfan (@f1statsfan)
    26th April 2025, 6:31

    Lewis belongs to the top 10 driver but not top 5 – similar to but ahead of Vettel.
    The Mercedes dominant years created an incorrect legendary status Lewis has with some of the fans.

    Hs F1 achievement stats are hugely inflated by having superior machinery for such a long time as well as always having driven for a top 3 team with the exception of weirdly very competitive 2024 where Mercedes finished 4th but had shortly the fastest car on the grid.

    Lewis had machinery to fight for the WDC a massive 11 seasons – he won 7 – some years he had very dominant cars but relatively did little with it – never got past 11 wins in a season.
    Often he had a rocky start to a season and once the title was secured he seemed to check out.

    Of the 361 races Lewis started – his team won 153 races = 42.4% (at end of 2021 this was 50.5%) far exceeding any of the other most frequent winners – Prost, Senna, Schumacher & Max are around 35%.

    At same time Lewis % of those wins is below 70% while most other top winners scored above 80% of their team wins.

    Next to have a good or the best car more than any other driver Lewis even for today standards has very few retirements, his retirement rate is just 8.86% – only 5 drivers have a below 10% retirement – interestingly the current 2 McLaren drivers are 2 of the others Robert Merhi & Max Chilton the other 2.

    Lewis had in his entire career only 32 retirements (18 at Mclaren and 14 with Mercedes) with the majority being the result of collisions. For comparison Max with far less races also has 32 retirements and the majority of his retirements are mechanical failures.

    Lewis rookie season was amazing but the term “Rookie” in 2007 meant something completely different than “Rookie” in 2025. Loads of testing – extra preparations – driven through the junior series so he was far more prepared and experienced than all of today’s rookies and most rookies in last 10 years.

    The results since 2022 are a slightly under reflection of the quality of driver Lewis but a much better picture of what Lewis career and F1 stats would have been if not for the dominant Mercedes years
    1. 

       Tony Mansell (@tonymansell)
       26th April 2025, 9:55

       You can reduce most drivers legacy if you want to. Fangio was ruthless in moving to the quickest car each season. Jackie Stewart was a nerd obsessive and tiny in weight and more professional than the playboys of the time. Senna was never the same when Prost left F1. MS only got so good by testing 10 hours every day and using an illegal car etc etc
    2. 

       David BR (@david-br)
       26th April 2025, 13:52

       You had to repeat that dross?
       1. 

          Ferdi
          27th April 2025, 11:24

          f1statsfan frames it correctly though. Hamilton fans don’t feel like having a nuanced discussion with some sense of perspective and thus respect for other drivers. One has to cling to the image that this driver, is the best. While we all feel that he is really good, but that quite a few things just happen to fall his way. I understand blind adoration to a certain extent and it is also endearing to see, but for those who have seen a lot of champions come and go, this is no longer a topic for discussion.
          1. 

             David BR (@david-br)
             28th April 2025, 0:31

             And another.
             1. 

                Ferdi
                29th April 2025, 9:53

                I rest my case.

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